BS: Where is Justice?

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:21 PM

I believe many authoritarian rulers encourage, or at least overlook, barbarous behavior among their subjects because it lends a certain legitimacy to their own barbarous rule. If a farmer is allowed to behead his wife for adultery, it makes the ruler's beheading of the farmer for some minor crime seem a reasonable punishment.

Within that context, religion has nothing to do with the barbarous practices. Religion may be used as an excuse for them, but the real reason they're allowed is that it makes it easier for the ruler to maintain his power base.

Of course, it's possible for an authoritarian ruler to behave in a thoroughly draconian fashion himself while not condoning similar practices among his subjects, but doing so requires more stringent enforcement which equals more delegation of power and a greater likelihood of some sort of palace revolt.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:57 PM

And "Amen" to that!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 05:48 PM

"Remember the US of A is a Christian country ..."

It ain't, you know. The majority of its denizens may be, but the US of A is officially neutral.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: John P
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 05:17 PM

Paul, I think you'll find that I wrote "more civilized", not "civilized". I don't think we are particularly civilized, but I think we are generally moving in that direction. I think you'll also find that I was writing about what is legal and accepted in different nations. A LOT of what the U.S. government has been doing for the last eight years is neither legal nor accepted by most of us. The Bush administration was a definite back-swing in the whole civilization department.

No matter how uncivilized we behave at any particular moment, honor killings still aren't legal here. Nor is burning school buildings full children or cutting off girls' sexual bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

. . . and tell me if you still think you're civilised."

Just a slight nit-pick, Paul. I am aware of what the military and the intelligence services in the USA and UK did to Binyam Mohamed, and I and many, many other people deplore and are disgusted by it, and support such organizations as Amnesty International and what they strive to do. And I am also deeply angered that our elected officials (most of whom, I personally, did not vote for) have not only allowed, but condoned this sort of thing. Do you still maintain that I, and people who feel as I do, are nevertheless "uncivilized?"

I reject out of hand any attempt to impose collective guilt.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Read about what the USA and UK had done to Binyam Mohamed, and tell me if you still think you're civilised.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: John P
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:24 PM

Bobert,
I'm not saying that the Iraq war isn't an unmitigated evil. I'm also not saying that we don't have a lot of violent criminals wandering around our country. I am saying that in this country they ARE criminals. Unlike Saudi Arabia, where official government piety police locked the doors of a burning school so the little girls couldn't get out because they didn't have their heads covered. Or numerous countries where young women are routinely mutilated to make sure they never enjoy sex. Or where the village elders sentence a girl to gang rape because of a crime committed by her brother. Or, as this thread was originally about, places where honor killings are accepted.

This thread also isn't about the brutal history of Christianity. The whole world was uncivilized in the past. It's not really about religion at all -- it's about countries where sanctioned brutality is still part of the norm. The point is that most nations have become more civilized over time, and some have not.

John P

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 12:27 PM

Slag, what is your complaint against "Ike"?

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 07:58 PM

Paul B is right Don T. Remember the US of A is a Christian country and look what it spawned, all in the name of Christ. JW Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, Ted Bundy, Bill Clinton, DW Eisenhower, Janet Reno, GW Bush, etc., etc. Yep! All that is laid at the doors of Christian Churches everywhere. That Christianity is BAD stuff with a capital B as in Baptist. Jeffery Dahmer, the Riverside Strangler, the Boston Strangler, Martin Luther King, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Abe Lincoln, Bob Dylan, the list is endless, all bad.

Yep, nothing but EVIL from this here Christian country.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 08:04 PM

Don T, you're a nit. Christianity DID initiate the Crusades. If you don't notice that the society around you allows bullying behaviour to women, "deviants", people who "don't belong"..


if all you can see is an attack on Christianity...

You're all one with the acid chuckers.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM

Ummmmm, upwards of 1,000,000 dead Iraqis wouldn't exactly agree with you, John P...

Not ot mention that the US has the highest per capita murder rate of all so-called civilzed nations...

Think it's time to redefine "civilized"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: John P
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 07:28 PM

The big difference between this type of evil in a Muslim (or Hindu) country and in our country is that in our country murder is illegal and considered by the rest of society to be a really Bad Thing. In some countries it is legal, accepted, and the norm.

Please don't tell me I'm anti-Muslim. I'm not. I'm against governments and their societies that accept and even glorify horrendous cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:42 PM

"There is no panacea, Don."

Isn't that what I just said?

Ye gods, was I that subtle?   I though I was using a sledge hammer!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:21 PM

"Where is Justice?"

         ...standing on a corner in Winslow, Arizona...

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:44 PM

""The man was evil. The culture that vallowed him to assume that he could behave like that is evil. You can't cure evil by more evil.""


So, by your standards another evil criminal, John Reginald Christie thinking it alright to murder several woman makes the Christian British culture evil.

And apparently there is no hope of redemption for the evil Christian US culture which led so many of its children to suppose it was alright to murder dozens of their schoolmates.

Not to mention the evil CHRISTIAN culture that not only condoned, but initiated the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.

Really Paul, you need to seek help if you believe the crap you are spouting.

Evil individuals do not represent the cultures in which they exist, but rather debase them......AND EVERY CULTURE HAS SOME EVIL INDIVIDUALS!!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

The man was evil. The culture that vallowed him to assume that he could behave like that is evil. You can't cure evil by more evil.

Those of us who are horrified by this case should look to similar chains of evil in our own societies, and look for ways to rectify them. We can't do much with other societies that we have little understanding of.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

There is no panacea, Don. In the absence of one "problem" another one arises. It's one of those little aspects without which life just wouldn't be what it is...challenging, interesting, and forever unpredictable.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:13 PM

Why not go all the way, AR?

If parents would simply kill their children the first time they misbehave, that will solve crime problems for all time.

(A modest proposal in the style of Jonathan Swift.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:05 AM

They will not change centuries of faith and tradition all because a handful of the above demand it. Talk until your blue in the face, but things will not change, accept and understand that. Before you go off on one again, please list their crime figures and compare it to ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:43 AM

M191! I would be the LAST one to blame the Jews! Check out some of my threads. Rather it is the 5,000 year old family feud between half brothers, Isaac and Ishmael. It has ebbed and flowed across the centuries and millenia like a festering sore that will not heal. Wrong or right it is a motivator for the current situation in the Middle East.

I just started a thread entitled "Justice, be a Lady" partly because of what I have read in this thread. I didn't want to hijack this one or at the very least, cause major thread-drift. In addition to Lady Justice holding a balance scale, she bears a two-edged sword. For those who demand justice with the idea of blood-letting and only absolute righteousness attributed to one side, think again. Justice CAN be meted out with a sword but it cuts both ways. Justice-fair play-leaves neither side completely satisfied and neither side wholly unhappy.

There is the story of the man who was convicted of a high crime. He dropped on his knees before the judge and pled for mercy. The judge said "Sir, you do not DESERVE mercy!" to which the man replied "Yes, your Honor, I know. If I deserved it, it would not be mercy, but justice." Something to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 01:02 AM

To answer your question, Rapaire...   Justice is an ideal. It's a mental concept of balancing things out equitably. It exists in the realm OF the ideal. It is something that human beings are always attempting to find or to mete out...but mostly all they mete out, as far as I can see, is vengeance. In this respect, they are little different than dogs, who will bite someone who has scared or offended them. Only thing is, the dog is not pretentious enough to call that "justice".

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Mickey191
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:44 PM

Guest AR,
"None of fully understand their culture or traditions. I do not agree with what they have done here, but they don't put up with crap."

Am I to understand this is another "blame the victim" response? Quite unbelievable! The second victim did not wish to date the perpetrator. He then decides to blind and disfigure her because he doesn't "put up with crap." Sounds like you are justifying his actions.

AR-You question our right to judge other nations laws & faith. We make judgements every day as people & as a country. Thankfully, we've applied some humanity to our laws.The fact that tradition & religion plays a part in this kind of cruelty is abhorrent. As far as I know - our religous leaders don't give tacit agreement to murder & mayhem.

Slag, Israel becomes a state & that leads to this? I wonder what else will be blamed on the Jews? Global Warming?

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:52 PM

I think the real question here is "WHAT is Justice?"

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:42 PM

When the common man finally learned to read and when, surreptitiously, the Bible was translated into the English language, people began to understand about the mercy and grace of God and that Christianity was about the liberation from the sentence of a harsh and unbending law as well as from those who USED the Christian RELIGION of its day as a club to control the masses. It was then that the Western culture(s) began, BEGAN to change. Both revolution and evolution have effected change in our culture and those changes have reflected our sense of fair play and justice.

Islam underwent significant changes centuries ago and it was THAT culture that helped, that contributed greatly to the Renaissance and the end of the Dark Ages. The emergence of Israel as a state, in view of the 5000+ year old blood feud and partisans seeking to manipulate Muslim populations is a big part of what is behind this retro-culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:10 PM

". . . but who are we to judge the laws and faith of a nation much older then ours?"

Should one say nothing, just because that nation has been around longer? If longevity had anything to do with it, then why aren't they more civilized than they are?

And I begin to see a nasty trend forming in this thread. Who's the more barbaric, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Druids, or Aztec sun worshippers who sacrificed virgins and ceremonially cut peoples' hearts out? I believe this country (the U. S.) has a constitutional stipulation about "cruel and unusual punishment." And at this point in our history, the death penalty is being called into question.

We no longer publicly stone women who have been accused of adultery or promiscuity. In some other countries, public beheading is the legal—and religiously sanctioned—punishment for "crimes" such as this.

Fanatics of any stripe go to excess. Unfortunately, this reflects badly on the finer aspects of the religions or cultures the fanatics claim to represent. It's easy to point fingers and try to say who is worse than who, but just what does it accomplish, other than giving folks a chance to vent their outrage and release a bit of their own suppressed bigotry.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:54 PM

USA = Murder capital of the civilzed world...

What difference does it make what weapon is chosen... Are you less dead if you are shot or beheaded???

Let's get real here, this is an anti-Moslum thread...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:34 PM

I've never seen a thread like this one about Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:28 PM

We see and have seen many threads that say similar stuff about Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:25 PM

None of fully understand their culture or traditions. I do not agree with what they have done here, but they don't put up with crap.

All of us see guys walking from courtrooms day and daily here laughing at the slap on the wrist they just received for crimes that deserved years in a prison cell.

I wonder do they have smiling human rights crackpots standing outside a courtroom giving media interviews and telling us some gangster is a kind hearted soul who came from a broken home and never tasted steak until he was 30 ?

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:07 PM

I wonder why we constantly see threads like this one about this sort of thing when Muslims are involved, but we never see any threads when Hindus do the same kinds of things for religious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:32 PM

It has nothing to do with gender per se; the same acts would be barbaric and insane if perpetrated by a woman against a child or animal for similar harmless irritation. Or a man, for that matter. THiskind of insanity is found in the individual.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:18 PM

Blinding and disfiguring a woman or a child for revenge is common in many countries. Perhaps the punishment is the beginning of putting an end to the practice. An eye for an eye...

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:51 PM

I agree this is terrible, but who are we to judge the laws and faith of a nation much older then ours? There is much in our mixed up society that social workers and do gooders find excuses for that these nations could judge us on. In some of these countries they have a lot less crime and kiddy fiddlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:41 PM

Making the woman have to rely on him and/or endure having him around would be a very cruel thing to do to her.
She's not the one needing punished, is she?

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:18 PM

Personaly I've given up on Justice and am busy looking for Mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Mickey191
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:55 PM

gnu, I had the same thought-he should be made to support her.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:52 PM

Perhaps the man should be placed in servitude to to woman he assaulted? If he was made to work to pay his debt to her as best he was able, would this not be better than blinding him?

Of course, if it was up to me, I'd just smack him in the head with a bat and let the crows peck out his dead eyes. No sense in letting that kind of human garbage breathe up any more air.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Mickey191
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:52 PM

I'm aware of the cruelties. In my naivete,in looking at these abominations, I'd presumed mankind had advanced in its' thinking. To have these kind of cruelties extant today and sanctioned by a religious philosophy is abhorrent to most people.

I may be wrong-but you two gentlemen sound as if you don't see how barbaric this is.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:34 PM

For centuries Christian leaders, royalty, the RCC and other "enlightened" groups lobbed the heads off "heretics," infidels, and adversaries. They also burned them at the stake, mutilated them, hanged drew and quartered them and committed ever imaginable kind of barbarity upon their persons, homes and families. We are just looking at a 7th century custom/culture through 20/21st century eyes. Come the next cultural revolution we will be seen as either barbaric, quaint or just stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:04 AM

If you give me some time I can find some examples of similar incidents by Christians, Buddists ect. If the point of this thread is the Moslem faith is a bad one why not just say so?

What say I? There are bad people all over the world and they come in every walk of life and every style of faith. Some are even athiest.

It's not always a nice world.

Subject: RE: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:57 AM

Some folk say we live in a civilised world........ Practices from the dark ages are still with us   I despair of our world!!!!

Subject: BS: Where is Justice?
From: Mickey191
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

Man & wife originate a radio program in order to educate us Americans on the sanctity & goodness of the Moslem faith.

Something goes awry and he cuts her head off.

____________

In Tehran, a woman is hounded by an ardent admirer. She rebuffs his advances. It goes on for months.

He throws acid in her face & destroys her eyes and her face. She will require (according to CNN) 7 more operations which will not give her vision.   She is pennyless. The courts have deemed his punishment:   acid will be put in his eyes.

What say you?