Irwin Silber on copyright

Subject: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Joybell
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 05:42 PM

Just got hold of a book I couldn't afford in the 60s.
I know this attitude is not unique but I wanted to share it.

Irwin Silber on copyright:
from Songs of the Civil War, compiled and edited by Irwin Silber
piano and guitar arrangements by Jerry Silverman
Columbia University Press, New York, 1960

In placing a copyright notice on this book and its contents, I want to make it abundantly clear that I am in no way attempting to claim ownership of any of the songs which appear on these pages. With the exception of a few songs bearing the copyright imprints of their publishers, the songs in this collection are in the public domain. In a few cases, I have made slight alterations either in the texts or in the tunes, or both, but these do not constitute the kind of major creative additions which would make a copyright claim morally justifiable. These songs are a priceless part of our national heritage and can no more be removed from the public domain than the flag, the Constitution, or any other symbol of our existence as a nation and a people. On the other hand, the piano and guitar arrangements made for these songs do constitute substantial creative work and, as such, are protected by the copyright on this book. Those who may want to use any of these arrangements will find no difficulty in receiving permission upon application to the editor....

Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM

He also derives a selection and collocation copyright which would be infringed by anyone substantially reproducing the selection and collocation of the songs in that book.

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Joybell
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:19 PM

So this means that in theory he could prevent someone reproducing his book, either in part, or in its entirety? Sounds fair enough. His attitude to the songs themselves is what interested me.
Joy
hildebrand sez, At the beginning of the New Lost City Ramblers songbook (c1963)there is a notice that goes something like:
"These songs are all the property of their writers, and nobody can use them unless they bring a note from their mother."
i forged mine.
H.

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:54 PM

Those, as I've said, were whole other different times. The folk scene was for sharing. And we did do that! It was all grist for the mill---all our mills.

Art

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:00 PM

The book, by the way, has been reprinted by Dover at a reasonable price, and it is available for partial viewing at Books.google.com - Songs of the Civil War, by Irwin Silber.

It's a good 'un.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Joybell
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:26 PM

It is that, Joe. The background information, about the songs, is excellent.
Joy

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:25 AM

YOu are right Joybell. He will also have had literary copyright in his notes: not in the information in them, but in the expression of them.

THe issue about the boundaries of copyright in assemblies of fact is interesting. Where, if reproducing facts from the notes, do you cross the line and reproduce teh selection of facts and the collocation of them? It is touched on in the English case of Ravesncroft -v- Herbert (I was involved in it) but not fully nailed.

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:54 PM

I think that the melody must not contain eight consecutive bars of music from a source.
That's what it use to be. Don't know now.

The copyright law runs afoul of the folk process.

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:06 PM

In "Songs of South Street...," Mark Lovewell and I stated something similar to the above and were promptly ripped off by our friend Bernie Klay. All he had to do was ask for permission and cite his source [us] and we would not have been upset.

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:54 AM

There is certainly no rule of thumb like that in UK law, Stringsinger.

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Woody Guthrie on copyright:
This song is Copyrighted in U.S., under Seal of Copyright # 154085, for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singin' it without our permission, will be mighty good friends of ourn, cause we don't give a dern. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. Yodel it. We wrote it, that's all we wanted to do.

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Could I ask Guest Jim for chapter and verse on Woody's excellent note?
I've been looking for it for years!

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:11 PM

Unfortunately Woody's note probably doesn't legally bind his heirs and assigns.

When I see, say, Hal Leonard Corp. claiming copyright in the melody line of, say, Stille Nacht, it just drives me up a wall...

Haruo

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: Joybell
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:09 PM

Interesting discussion here. Good to have Woody Guthrie on copyright Thanks, Jim.
Joy

Subject: RE: Irwin Silber on copyright
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:55 PM

Jon,

I first heard that Woodie quote in a Johnny Appleseed Juniour column in a Sing Out! magazine, probably from the sixties by Pete Seeger. I put as much as I could remember into Google and found that quote.