BS: The middle classes are revolting

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:53 AM

Don't forget the South of the island of Ireland, the morally bankrupt government is in deep crisis but they keep on trying to paper over the cracks - the voters are not buying it!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:15 AM

Methinks, in Ireland, the Revolution/Rebellion or something part way inbetween, maybe a Revebellion, is about to start pretty soon...

Local people are off to Stormont today to talk to politicians, who have, perhaps wisely, invited them there to hear their worries, listen to what they say...and I'd imagine see if any of *them* can come up with the solutions, because, let's face, we all know the politicians don't know what the shite is going on!

The BBC took you to a local town, not far away, nestled amongst the Irish hills. There was Woolworths, boarded up and empty, same as in Sidmouth, Marks & Spencers Food Store about to close in a few days, same as in Honiton (5th March), and a whole host of other shops, now standing empty...the very heart of the town, gone. It panned into the local paper, just half a page of jobs now, not enough going for a whole one...

Meanwhile...back at the ranch....

In Scotland, they can no longer afford the drunks....so finally the politicians there are considering doing something about it. They want to raise the age of buying alcohol to 21, along with putting the price of it up to a basic minimum, I guess getting rid of 'Happy Hours', because maybe they're finally opened their eyes to the 'Unhappy Hours' that take over their towns and cities when the alcohol takes effect. Violent crime, fuelled by drink, is terrible up there, and liver problems are twice those of England...

And the beat goes on.....

An elderly couple coming back from Spain, as they can no longer afford to live out there, after 5 years of renting, rent almost doubled now, as the pound sinks against the Euro....They're lucky, their friends who own houses out there can't sell them, as the housing market is even worse than over here (Yikes!) The BBC followed them home to England, back to the Lake District, where they have family, and are now renting a small place in Carlisle..they interviewed a few others too, all of whom are fearful for the future, struggling to make ends meet, no longer able to live off their savings, as no interest is coming in, so their money is being eaten away.

And all the way through, people are muttering that it's almost as if those in power don't know what to do to stop it, as if they don't understand or aren't able to work out what to do, as if they don't even care.......

Yup.

Personally, I think the government should have bailed out Woolworths, because the huge damage that's followed has been catastrophic. Every single British High St, now has a huge empty shop in the middle of it, and the damage that's done to confidence has been immeasurable, let alone the job losses, not just from Woolies, but from those who supplied them, others who relied on those suppliers, such as Zavvi etc..

I guess the good news in all this, and there's always some, is that never again will politicians be allowed to be so damn irresponsible, never will people 'trust' in the same blind way they have been doing.

The entertainment industry will go back to giving 'feelgood' programmes, beautiful films etc, to cheer people up. The fashion industry will take a turn for happy clothes, we'll all learn how to cook again, make chicken stock, turn our gardens into allotments, make do and mend..and go back to the days of World War II, but this time without the bombs and bullets, save for those that have been fired into our society by the Bastard Bankers...

But hell, we're British! We can overcome anything! :0) And THAT is the one thing that is NOT being preached out there in the media, that the British are at their best when they have absolutely nothing, or are under attack.

So yes, another silver lining, perhaps a gold one, is that suddenly, our society may start to come back, people will start helping each other out, thinking about one another, caring again.

I recall way back, when I was 17 and working in Boots the Chemist (no longer owned by Jesse Boot's family, but by an Italian multi-billionaire who's taking the heart out of that company too).....standing in the shop one day, when an elderly gent walked in. We got talking, and he started on about the way of the world, something had happened in the news, can't recall what it was now...but he looked at me and smiled, sadly, then said:

"Do you know what we need, dear? We need a bloody good war!"

I stared at him, a bit shocked....

"Do you know what war does? It focusses the mind on what's important in life, that's why we need one, to get our values back."

Well, I don't want that to happen, ever. But I know that right now, we are facing a different kind of war, on a worldwide scale, one without armies, thankfully, but one where many are going to get hurt, nonetheless. However, just as that old chap said, our minds are going to become far more focussed on what truly matters in life. Big Brother and Posh and Becks ain't it. Bankers and *ankers ain't it.
Homes in the sun and the latest 'must have' house look, or new car, ain't it. Being there for one another is what this is all about. Helping each other wherever and however we can. Oh, and all getting back to having a bloody great sense of humour too, because that sees you through one helluva lot.

Someone bring back Black Adder, we need him! :0)



Glad you enjoyed the gig, Levells (knew you would!) ;0) And yup, Reg is a real sweetheart, isn't he. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:11 PM

Damn, pressed the wrong key. Hank and Reg were great - had a nice chat with Reg - what a great bloke.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:08 PM

Yeah, I'll go along with that. I keep waiting for the revolution to start....my philosophy is that, whatever happens, ths sun will still rise and I'd [pretty much rather watch a sunrise than anything els... AND IT'S FREE!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:29 AM

Levells, I hope you enjoyed Reg and Hank.

I did mention backalong, that for some kids, school is the best thing to happen to them and they love it. That's not total condemnation. I was merely saying that school is NOT right for ALL children, and for some, many that I know, it's become it's own kind of hell.

I stand corrected though, because math and music, poetry too do go together, all have a structure and rhythm I guess. But there are those who want cold hard facts and those who love to dream.....

Oh..and Chris Woodhead finally stood up yesterday and talked on the BBC about how so many University degrees are utter crap and bring no job at the end, just a huge pile of debt for young people to start their lives with. They had a few people from the Uni Exam system there too, who kind of squirmed and wouldn't admit to the hardline questions being fired at them, that they've conned thousands of young people into believing that all these new subjects will get you jobs....

Another reason for the Rebellion to start methinks, led by thousands of young people who are £10/20,000 in debt and working in Tescos.

Yeesh! Corporate Education at it's worst. The whole system is rotten all the way through, becausegreed and opportunity' has seeped into every crevice of our society. There is no honour anymore. Heck if you're 'found out' you just carry on taking your fat pension and smirk at everyone...

Once upon a time.................

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

Lizzie, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience of the education system but, frankly, to condemn the whole of the system on the basis of that is fatuous. All I'll say is that it has come a long, long way since I was at school. Children are no longer physically abused as we were by barely trained teachers, prefects and anyone else given the authority to keep discipline, and there is much more flexibility in the system now, with children, once they have the basic grounding provided by the National Curriculum, able to choose what they study. My son was allowed to change a couple of his A level subjects after a term when he found they didn't suit him. In contrast, when I was doing mine I was not allowed to take maths (deemed a science subject) as I was taking history and Engish (arts subjects).

BTW I would take you to task when you say that mathematicians are not poets. I think that maths is often pure poetry and it's no surprise that so many philosophers are mathematicians.

Anyway, I hope your kids have a wonderful life and dsicover all the magic that it holds.

Off to see Reg Meuross and Hank Wangford in a little while. Yeeeha!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:26 PM

You don't have to revolt, just come over to our side of the pond and be our latest illegal immigrants!

FULL CIRCLE!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:08 PM

"I am disappointed at all the whining in this thread"

You're not paying for them - feel free to chip in with a quid or so anytime!

Come to think of it, you could always re-instate them as your own Monarchy, then you'll have to put up with Chaz bleating on about things he holds deeply conservative and slightly unimaginative views about, such as modern architecture and urban planning. In fact he's even built his own village, Poundbury, which whilst it does have some good ideas to challenge the vacuous nature of modern planning practice it also looks like a cross between a new estate complete with tasteless twee neo-classical architectural elements, some Stepford Wivesesque idealised chocolate box version of an English village and something Thomas Kinkade puked onto canvas in one of his bogglingly awful paintings.

Shame he doesn't stick to farming and stuff. We couldn't afford his expensive organic wares up here up north (and we have lots of our own anyway), and it is mainly or tourists but his Duchy Ale is actually rather good.

Come the revolution, when we've sent Betty and the others down the dole office to sign on we could take over the brewery and make Republic Ale! Woo-ho!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:35 AM

I got bullied in grade school by half a dozen older punks, but by the time I reached puberty and put on 50 pounds the bullying stopped.One well placed right to the jaw seemed to get the message across.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

Hmmmmm...
For some reason our Public Broadcasting System has been screening a series called "Monarchy" or somesuch day-in-the-life of HRM Elizabeth II, and my impression is she and her relatives furnish a lot of employment to you lot.

Now remember, if it weren't for Elizabeth the First, you'd all be speaking Spanish by now, and we might have solved that pesky border problem down Texas way already. I'm sure THE SECOND is saving us from speaking some sort of nonsense so I am disappointed at all the whining in this thread.

I expect your base ingratitude should be recorded by the authorities, surely if you adopt the levelling approach of "Eat The Rich" you'd sell off some prime real estate, turn it into low-rents, take all take that lovely lolly and blow it all on chips and savalloys.

I'm so glad that American Public Broadcasting was around to open my eyes!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:44 AM

Hang on a minute, Levells...I *am* a part of society. :0) Good Gawd...if you met my kids, you'd be over the moon! And hey, surprise, surprise, they did swimming, badminton, basketball, cycling, holidays..They're also happy talking to anyone, of any age, from any background.

I can assure you that they've not been 'priviledged' in any way at all, as believe me, you are completely 'on your own' when you home-educate, there is no help whatsoever.

My kids left school because of vicious bullying that was NOT dealt with, time and again, and because of the insane pressure that is now put on our kids in order for schools to meet targets. At 7 my son was already being publicly humiliated by his teacher for his spelling. He has dyslexia, it runs through my family. She was aware. She just didn't give a ****.

Gee Wizz! I get insanely angry about the view non Home Ed people have of those who choose a different route. I had NO choice with my daughter, she imploded at 15, wanted to give up on life, and to be perfectly honest, at that moment I though "B*gger it ALL! B*gger this 'thing' called school which has driven my daughter to this state!" I sent in a warm, happy, talented, kind, quiet and sensitive child, and out of it came a distressed, unhappy, depressed and bewildered young person. It took me bloody years to get her back, but darn it, she made it!   

You have been very lucky with your kids. Get down on your knees and thank heavens for it, because there are very, very many who are suffering...and again, I refer you BACK to the teachers themselves who have stood up and said that something terribly wrong is going on and that many kids are now showing signs of mental problems, their words. Look it up...read about it...The Torquay Conference from last year.

My kids will 'socialise' with anyone. They're still kind, compassionate and quiet though, as it's their nature. I recall one conversation with a screeching teacher, who told me my daughter was very 'sensitive'..."Yes" I said, "She is, and that's why she couldn't take your lesson on how animals are killed around the world, complete with gory videos!" She was 13 at the time. It was an English class, the subject for 'discussion' was vegetarianism..so they showed the most gruesome film. My daughter got upset, her teacher couldn't understand it, but then, I'd seen this woman many a time, screaming her head off at kids. So, school is about de-sensitising children?

Okkkkkkkk!

No, sorry, but I've had experience of the other kinds of schools..where much is going so very wrong. Tavistock College, where the teachers all have walkie talkies, where the drug addicts roam outside the gates, where the school is so VAST that teachers don't know who the kids even are half the time. Many of our schools are nothing more than Factory Farms. I now have Free Range kids...Get over it. :0)

There are many ways to make kids happy. School for some, is absolutely wonderful and they love every moment of it. For others, it is years and years of absolute hell. You cannot fit all children into one way of growing up, they are all Individuals and 'The System' does NOT allow for Individuals. You cannot insist that everyone is educated in the same way or learns the same things, it's total madness!   The poet is not the mathematician, the artist is not the scientist..and this controlling National Curriculum is doing terrible damage, as is the blinkered view of so many people who cannot move on and see another way...see that the children themselves are often so deeply distressed.

School is a bad system that is left over from the Victorian Era, it's no longer working in many places around the country, around the world. Even the teachers themselves are **finally** beginning to realise that.

And home education is not an easy opt out. It's bloody hard..but sometimes, there is no choice. Now though, having lived through years of it, I'd never have sent my kids to school, given a choice early on.   

I think it's the weirdest system going, totally inhumane and non-workable.

The streets of our cities are telling that truth...

Your go, Levells.. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:05 AM

Reminds me of "Carry on, don't lose your Head."

"Citizen Sir! The peasants are revolting!"

"Sniff. You aren't so fresh yourself..."

I used to have a job, car, holidays abroad etc. I was classed as working class.

I now have a job, car, holidays abroad etc. I seem to be classed as middle class.

Whom do I sue?

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 06:45 AM

Oh dear, I think this thread has crept a long way from my original post!

Lizzie, you bemoan the ills of society yet, on your own admission, you have opted out. Perhaps, instead of sitting on the sidelines constantly telling us how terrible things are, and how terrible we are, you should be doing something about it. For instance, you say that you have educated your son at home. OK, that's your right but, personally, this and all forms of private education are things I am very much against. I believe that it creates bastions of private privilege (or even deprivation) and children who are not aware of their social responsibilities and are unable to interact effectively with others (just look at the 'royals').

Given mrsleveller's qualifications, it would have been easy to educate our kids at home but we were adamant that they would be missing out on so much if we did (swimming clubs, music lessons, team sports, school trips and a wide and diverse circle of friends), so it was never an option. Instead, we get involved with the schools and cultivate a good relationship with heads and teachers, even arguing with them when we think there's a problem.

Child protection measures are there for just that reason. It does not give children the impression that everyone is out to hurt them, it's over-reacting parents who do that. It simply assures children that, if they do come up against abuse, there is something they can do about it. You think that's a bad thing?

As I may have mentioned before, mrsleveller works for the Workers' Education Association, organising and running free courses in local schools and communities, usually in some of the most deprived areas of Yorkshire. Some of the most valuable and popular are Helping In Schools, which trains classroom assistants, and Practical Parent Helpers, which tells parents how to get actively involved in their children's education. Parents (usually mothers) find in incredibly empowering to realise that they can make a difference instead of being dismissed by those of us in society who are more privileged as wasters and degenerates. Some have even gone further and trained to be teachers themselves. The key is 'education'; tell people what they can do and how to do it and you'll be amazed at the results.

My point is: if you're not prepared to be part of society, don't tell those of us who are how we should behave. It's hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:22 AM

Leveller, I fully agree about parental and individual responsibility, but where is it?   That's the whole point.

We already have a generationn who don't know how to be parents. We have people terrified about disciplining their children, in case they get reported or frowned at, so they back down from having a showdown in public and let little junior get away with it.

If you recall, in '1984' the parents were terrified of their kids, who'd report them to the authorities at the drop of a hat...Hmmmmmmm...

I was shocked when my daughter went to Tavistock College for her first ever school day there, and came home with writing books, which all had, on the back page, a long list of agencies and telephone numbers that children could call, if they were in trouble. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for children having somewhere to turn to, but hell, if we give the impression to kids that all adults are out to hurt them, or that they will one day be in need of those numbers, almost as a certainty, then we're not creating a very good impression, are we? I don't know, but it seems to me that Big Brother has reached into our schools and our children's lives as never before.

Already, every single child born in this country is instantly put on an 'at risk' register, which teachers, police, doctors, social workers can access, but parents can't. Everyone is now viewed with suspicion. My son will have a flag by his name, which means he's 'at risk' because he's home-educated. Most people don't even know this list exists, or that it stays with their kids, and with them, until the child is 18. I only know, because the home-education folks keep a sharp eye on all things to do with children...

I'm not blaming alcohol for it *all* but I DO blame the Corporate industries that surround it for playing a huge part in it. Young people are absolutely saturated by that industry in a way we never, EVER were. You *surely* cannot ignore that fact. If you looked at that video, you'll see the police themselves saying it.

But what worries me most is WHY so many young people want to drown their lives out in the way that's happening at present..and the more you refuse to recognise what's happening, the deeper the problem is going to become. No-one is looking deeper!

Parental responsibility was 'interfered' with by The State.

We also now live in a world where to be bitchy and thick, to put down with sarcasm is far more popular than being kind, compassionate and intelligent. We need to somehow swap the majority behaviour for the minority...

And you're obviously happy with what's happening on our city streets, choosing to believe it's no different from what's always happened. I'm not. It's a totally alien way of life to me, and to others that I know, who are equally as worried.

If you choose to ignore what the ambulance services are saying, if you choose to ignore what the doctors are saying, the police, many who are concerned with children and young people, well, so be it...I guess it's easier to be an ostrich.

Responsibility comes from the Individual.

Absolutely.

Trouble is, The State has now removed the Individual.....

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:31 AM

"I'm just a bumpkin colonial; what do I know?"

Well, at least your forefathers had the presence of mind to fight a war of independence and establish a republic . . . I'm not suggesting a war (far too many of those already), but bring on the republic!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:21 AM

I have to agree with Kendall, here. Lizzie, much as I'd like to entertain the idea of some great corporate or government conspiracy to keep us all pissed (where do I get my drinking vouchers?), I think, as the Guardian article you link to says, that it's back down to parental and personal responsibility. However, the social conditions that so many people have to live in, on sink estates, destitute, hopeless and despised, makes it pretty hard for them to bring up children with the kind of self-respect we'd like them to have.

I'm not unsypathetic to your view (don't forget, my eldest son is a copper and has to deal with the effects of alcohol abuse on a daily basis - even more dangerous as he's a firearms officer and the people he faces often have guns), I just think that you're over-egging the puidding a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

Countries, like all living things, carry the seeds of their own destruction. Nothing can ever last forever. When we can blame the rum seller for our own weakness that is what's saddest of all.
No one is responsible for their own crap anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:18 PM

"As to the drinking culture – well, I wonder if it hasn't always been that way, to some extent. Over 100 years ago A E Housman wrote, in 'A Shropshire Lad':"


Nooooooooooo.....

Look...(methinks you is tryin' to wind me up! - lol).....LOOK! Men have always loved beer, I accept that, and they've had drunken nights and a few brawls, but NEVER have we had what is happening now...

Hell, women are having sex with men on city streets and they can't even remember!!!

Yeah, go on...."But, Lizzie, that's always happened" NO...IT...HASN'T!

Did you *watch* the video, Leveller?

There's one helluva difference between the Shropshire lad and the WHOLE of Shropshire falling over, in unison, before having it off with complete strangers on their way to casualty in the back of a police van!

Ye Gods And Drunken Fishes!

We are on our way to having an entire generation who'll be alcoholics shortly. Already diabetes is rocketing, and hey, do you know how much sugar there is in alcohol???? ("Yes", say Kendall, sadly) :0)
We're beginning to have the liver problems starting up too, bit by bit it's starting to bleed the NHS dry...let alone damage young people terribly.

The Corporate Alcohol B*stards are making an absolute FORTUNE! Did you listen to the bit about Nottingham? Did you hear how there are now pubs that take 1,500 people at a go? Did you know there are over 400, yes FOUR HUNDRED, pubs and clubs in Nottingham? Did you know they've taken over cinemas, churches, ANY big buildings where they can cram in young people, sell them cheap booze to start with, then sell 'em more at bigger prices, when they're so numbed they don't realise? Have you heard how the taxi drivers have the young women throwing up in the cabs all the time...

GEEZ! We are living in Alocholic Alice in Wonderland, except that where Alice drowned in a pool of tears, our young people are drowing in a pool of vodka!

The Corporate Alcohol B*stards start them off early, with their Alcopops...luring them in with fruit and alcohol..and before you know it, Bob's Yer Bottle, they're hooked!

The greedy supermarkets and corner shops dedicate vast swathes of their shops to it all, because they make such a huge profit...and hell, that's what life's about on the Conveyer Belt, profit, profit, profit..

There are times when I think I need to tie myself to Nelson's Column, if you'll pardon the expression, and scweam and scweam until I'm sick, in the vain hope that someone..*someone* will listen! Who knows, Prince Charles might just hear me up at Old Buck House, and come charging down on his white charger to rescue everyone...

Oh, Lawdy, I just get so exasperated by it all.

Teenage drinking, report and video, from The Guardian Jan 2009

The Cold Heart of England - Show of Hands

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

Of course I'm not qualified to say what sort of government you should have in the UK. Maybe it's my ingrained resistance to change. I'm a history buff, and you have so much that I find fascinating.The monarchy is part of that fascination.I'm just a bumpkin colonial; what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Well Lizzie, we can agree about Paris Hilton – and the same goes for the myriad of other so-called celebrities who inhabit that strange twilight world of Hello magazine. The phrase 'get a life' was never more apt, both for them and the people who follow their inane antics.

As to the drinking culture – well, I wonder if it hasn't always been that way, to some extent. Over 100 years ago A E Housman wrote, in 'A Shropshire Lad':

Oh many a peer of England brews
Livelier liquor than the Muse,
And malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
Ale, man, ale's the stuff to drink
For fellows whom it hurts to think:
Look into the pewter pot
To see the world as the world's not.
And faith, 'tis pleasant till 'tis past:
The mischief is that 'twill not last.
Oh I have been to Ludlow fair
And left my necktie God knows where,
And carried half way home, or near,
Pints and quarts of Ludlow beer:
Then the world seemed none so bad,
And I myself a sterling lad;
And down in lovely muck I've lain,
Happy till I woke again.


It has an uncannily familiar ring.... now where did I leave my tie (oh that's right, I don't own one!)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM

"You remember a time when parents were terrified of their kids not having exams"

Sorry, that should have read, "...a time when parents were *not* terrified....."

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:35 AM

You're older than me, you take care of your children, so do I. Mine too are doing pretty OK, although my daughter gets befuddled when no-one seems to want to talk much about anything remotely interesting, just booze and who they were with last night.

Sorry, UNICEF don't make claims that aren't true. Teachers don't finally all come together to say that something is desperately wrong, unless it really is.

Yes, there are good schools, there are good kids, of course there are, you and I both know that, but I'm talking about the majority here, and I *know* from experience that many kids are struggling deeply.

Hell, I'm not talking about ****** exams. I'm talking about their souls. I'm talking about where they go in their heads.

Most kids these days have GCSE passes. It means little. Most kids also now have Uni degrees, but again, for many, it means little, they don't truly understand what the heck they're studying, they just limp through it, because it's on the Conveyer Belt, and 'the system' has been changed to ensure that the majority now get a degree, pass rates lowered, excuses given, etc...until a Uni Degree carries no weight at all, 'cos hey, EVERYONE has one. University used to be for the best minds. It used to be the place where those who truly wanted to specialise, study and learn far more, went. Now, it's just another stop on the road of Corporate Life. It's 'what you do'

I would LOVE to know how many people have become mega wealthy from all the exams. I bet you there are a few politicians amongst them, and many in the Corporate Education System, of course.

You're nearly 60, so you'd also remember a time when WH Smith didn't have wall to wall books on getting your children through every exam under the sun. You'll remember a time when exams weren't the be all and end all of your life, and you weren't made to feel that without them you were NOTHING. You remember a time when parents were terrified of their kids not having exams, and didn't put more and more pressure on them to achieve, as do the schools who want to gain the pass rates. You'll remember a time when you could start at the bottom of a job with nothing, and work your way up, without having to have the 'correct' qualifications to start with. You'll remember a time when society cared more, had more women at home, creating their own society, caring for their own children, ensuring that the children of others were cared for too.

Two salaries means twice as much for Corporate businesses to benefit from so you bet they're going to create a society where women are encouraged to work, hell, let other women bring those kids up, preferably in state controlled institutions.

If you can't see the similarity between 1984 and today's society, Leveller, then you must have the book upside down. Alistair Campbell, I'm sure, could give you every word of it without even having to open a page.

The Royals are insignificant in all this, other than also having kids who also wanna be wannabees, and who are touched in the same way that everyone else.

Never has there been a time of people being so dumb and revelling in it! Once we had Great Britain, now...we have Little Britain...and people laugh. I don't get it. Sorry. I'm not proud of what I see in my country, it makes me cringe and it worries me deeply.

I watched the most horrifying programme the other day, purely because I couldn't believe it! It was Paris Hilton, who jacqui speaks of above...in a programme where she was trying to find 'A British Best Friend'

Sweet Holy Porcupines!!!!!!!! I almost decided that the planet should implode, there and then, be far better for us all... ;0)

I have NEVER seen such a disturbing programme! All these idiotic Posh Spice lookalikes fawning over her, worshipping her! The vacuousness almost lit up the room!   

Who the ***** put that on TV? Who the **** MADE it!!!???? And HOW did we get from Leonardo da Vinci, to Paris Hilton????????????????

NO, it has NOT always been like this.   I've heard that argument so many times, from people who are too bloody scared to open their eyes.
Look beyond your own family, look into the cities, go into your local town late at night....Read how the ambulance service can no longer cope with picking up the drunks every night, read how the hospitals can't cope, watch the videos of the police going out, keeping the peace, picking the casualities off the floors of our cities...

Then thank God that your kids ARE safe, because there are so very many who aren't.

Cool Britannia.
Binge Drinking Britain

People drink...to numb the pain.

Cure the pain, and you cure the drinking.

People once used to think, now they're encouraged not to.

Cure the dumbness....and you cure the country!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:09 AM

Kendall, we are talking about an adjustment to our existing system - not throwing the baby out with the royal bath water. It would mean having an elected head of state instead of a monarch and replacing the House of Lords with an elected body - something that has been discussed for many a year (we currently have a very unsatisfactory halfway house). Oh - and, hopefully, proportional representation.

I reckon that's enough to be going on with - until the revolution :0

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:17 AM

OK leveller - what country would you use as a model? There is always a lot of difference between theory and practice where the human condition is concerned.

Wherever you go there will be greedy people willing to do anything to fulfill their own desires.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM

When I was in school we had subjects such as Civics. Do they teach that anymore? Do they teach anything anymore?

We like to think this is a democracy. It is not. It is a representative democracy. That means that the representatives get to decide what is good for the rest of us.Do you think the rich are going to vote for term limits? or fair taxes for all? Congress is full of lawyers; do you think they are going to vote to close loopholes that they will one day be able to use to their own advantage? Dream on.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

No way would I ever advocate looking to the US as a model for a republic!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:38 AM

This is supposed to be a republic. Ok, let's look at the record.
George Washington was one of the richest men in the colonies.All of the founding fathers were quite well off. They decided how things were to be. You had to be a land owner to vote.

Moving along, our senate is full of wealthy people.
The Roosevelts, the Bush's all through our history the rich have screwed the poor and when a man of modest means gets to be president even the lower middle classes yell "Socialist". Even the poor have been brainwashed into thinking that socialism is bad for them.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:32 AM

Mainly because the King was replaced with a murderous religious fanatic who sought to oppress anyone who stood in his way.

And you don't get that nowadays? They have just got rid of one in the USA.

A republic symbolises a society where personal achievement and self-respect is more important than inherited privilege and artificial social status.

Come live in the USA for a while. This is the republic that you are talking about. I love my adopted country but I can see its faults and one of them is the rise of the priviledged classes. If you have money here life is great, but if you are poor it is very difficult to get out of the poverty trap, or allow your kids to make it.

There are families here who have to remortgage their houses in order to pay their medical bills or to get their kids through college, with the hope of a better life once they graduate. There are many who will never have that chance, unless they have a special talent for sport or are inordinately bright - otherwise forget it.

Conversely, you have the likes of Paris Hilton - a member of a wealthy family, famous for having inherited wealth, and the myriad film and sports stars whose every word and action is treated as the pearls that are cast before swine. Trust me, artificial status is alive and well and living in this republic.

Even communism didn't make a difference - there were still the haves and have nots, with wealth and priviledge going to those who ran the country and hardship for many of their countrymen.

Human nature being what it is there will always be those who will claw their way to the top, regardless of the harm they do on the way up. There will always be those who want more, even if it is at the expense of others.

I really don't care one way or the other about the monarchy. However, IMO, thinking that getting rid of them would be the panacea that would bring the sun back in the sky is extremely naive. I doubt that there is a real solution to the human condition, but I would like to see people in general looking at the issues and not the colour of the party rosette next time they go to vote.

And talking of voting - now I'm really going to upset some people. Maybe we should instigate a test on the constitution that must be passed before we gave the priviledge of the vote to anybody. Let's have classes in school on what it means to be a citizen of the country and the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. Give kids a sense of pride in their nationality and to let them know that it is their responsibility to make their own future, rather than sit back and say "Why don't THEY do something about it". Maybe, as parents, that is what we should all be doing. Not just inculcating our children with our own political views, but giving them the opportunity to look at the whole political spectrum and work out for themselves what path they wish to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:07 AM

Actually, Lizzie, I think you'll find that I'm older than you – I hit the big 6-0 this year.

I certainly don't have rose-tinted specs. I'm facing redundancy for the third time in 10 years and I've had to move around the country and work abroad in order to earn a living in the past - and I've been married – well, let's just say, more than once.

I think it's an easy option to blame the behaviour of our children on 'society', the education system or some mysterious Big Brother who is controlling our lives. The buck stops firmly with parents. By the time children go to school, attitudes have become firmly instilled and it's teachers who, all too often, have to pick up the pieces.

I have 4 children - all thinking individuals with minds of their own. My eldest son is a police officer and has two children of his own; my eldest daughter has suffered from ME for over 10 years but, thanks to help from her school (the local comp.) managed to get 8 GCSEs despite missing almost two years of her education and, although she can't work full-time, has a job as an assistant manager in a coffee shop; my 18-year old son is doing his A Levels, and my 9-year old daughter is at the local junior school, which she loves, and is on the Gifted and Talented Register in literacy and art.

To be honest, my 18-year old son behaves in much the same way I did at his age. He gets drunk, stays out all night and plays with a rock band (I did folk). On the other hand, he is doing OK at his A Levels without too much pressure from us, has been offered a place at uni. to study History and Politics and pays his way with a part-time job.

So, this doesn't really fit in with your scenario, but it isn't untypical, in my experience.

Yes, I have read 1984 – just finished re-reading it as it's one of my lad's set books for A Level English – and I see little comparison with Britain today, though plenty, of course, with pre-war Germany and post-war USSR.

The antics of the Windsors have no relevance to my life or those of my kids. They are, in the same way you suggest alcohol is, 'the opiate of the people' – just more fodder for the vicarious who prefer to live their lives through others, rather than, as the parrots in Aldous Huxley's Island insisted, "Here and now, boys. Here and now."

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:55 AM

OK, so here, in case anyone's interested, are the whole 9 videos about Prince Charles and all that he does. Personally, I'd imagine that he's cheering about the fact that people are starting to open their eyes at long last.


'The Passionate Prince'

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7

Part 8

Part 9

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:14 AM

No, Leveller...I jumped off the Conveyer Belt, but I'm talking about the many who are on it. I've ceased to stop looking around me and refusing to see what's happening. I'm older than you, so I guess I remember a different time, when there was far more desire to be seen as intelligent, rather than thick, when kids weren't falling over sideways in our city centres most nights, or starting their social life at 11pm of an evening.

A friend of mine lives not far out of Basingstoke, in a tiny village. Her daughter wanted to be part of it all, and was desperate to go into town each weekend, some weekdays too. Some of the clubs in town ran a minibus service out to the villages, so the kids could get in to them. They'd pick them up at 11pm and bring them home around 4am. Her mother thought this was wonderful, I found it deeply disturbing...deeply.

Many people nowadays simply live their lives as they are told to live them, they cannot think for themselves, and if you've read Orwell's '1984' then you'll see the alarming similarities, almost a blueprint for so much of today's society.

If you create a population which no longer thinks, then you've almost won, except, those darned Individuals keep cropping up and putting their heads above the parapet, so you squeeze them tighter and tighter...

I could tell you stories that would set you reeling about what has happened to the children of some of my friends...and the bewilderment that it causes their parents.

Sorry, I'm not with the 'racist' comments and the 'Prince Harry story' as can be seen in the thread to which I put a link in earlier on. Harry called his friend by a nickname that he and others used, and it was one which the man concerned was totally happy about, as he stated when he stuck up for Harry and assured people that his friend was in no way racist. Sadly, Prince Harry has been set up by the News of the World, again as discussed in the other thread.

I see Harry's behaviour in general, his drinking etc...as no different from any other young person who is also deeply troubled these days. It has touched all kids, from all sections of society, it matters not if you go to an inner ciy comprehensive, or one of the most famous public schools in the country.

UNICEF have stated we have the most unhappy kids in the world over here in the UK. The teachers themselves have recognised it too and spoken out about it at their Torquay conference. The politicians refuse to acknowledge it though, utterly refuse.

They also refuse to do much about the alochol problem, when we all know they could do a very great deal.

Ask yourself why?

Ask yourself why any government would prefer its population to be drunk as skunks most of the time, stressed out with paying bills, making ends meet, trying to afford a house, find a job etc..

You may not like the answers, but the answers are there....

And meanwhile, those in power, keep on getting wealthier, more controlling and more calculating, whilst their 'people' drink and eat themselves into oblivion.

Still, at least they do what they're told and they don't argue.

Personally, I'd rather have Prince Charles in charge than most of the politicans around, because at least he cares about this country and the world in general and he's not afraid to speak out.

One of nine videos about Prince Charles...well worth watching, because you'll see a very different person to the one the press always wants you to see.

The Passionate Prince - One of the Most Relentless Campaigners in Modern Britain

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:28 AM

"Exactly."

Well, only in that particular case. I'm all in favour of doing away with the monarchy and I certainly wouldn't swear allegiance to them; the institution of the monarchy is an anachronism and it's time the people of these Islands were free of the lot of them.

Next time we get rid of the monarchy I would rather hope it could be done properly. The can call themselves King, Queen or whatever but no elected representative of the people should ever have to ask their permission to dissolve or form a government.

Long live the Republic!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:26 AM

Oh dear, Lizzie. What a depressing outlook on life you have. Thankfully, for most people, it isn't like that at all. Some of us do manage to bring up our children with a sense of proportion, responsibility, respect for others and realistic expectations. Seeing a bunch of irresponsible, disfunctional yobs who claim to be our 'betters' doesn't help. Do you really think the royals set a good example with their racist comments, lack of respect for other people and louche. overprivileged lifestyle? I think not.

A republic symbolises a society where personal achievement and self-respect is more important than inherited privilege and artificial social status.

It can't come too soon for me and I will work to bring it about.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:58 AM

You left out just how expensive funerals can be (a href="http://www.whatprice.co.uk/health/funeral-cost.html">see here), and surely you must have the best casket (etc) for your loved one ...

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:55 AM

Darn it, it posted before I was ready, apologies for mistakes and uneven everything.


Anyway, the solution to all this, as I see it, is to create a desire and a LOVE of learning. It's to go against the tide of wanting to be a Prole, and realise that you are an Individual, one who came into this world with a whole lifetime ahead of you, which belongs to YOU, not some clever, greedy, unfeeling, uncaring so and so, who sits in his Corporate office, counting the money you've given him in the hope that your REAL life will come true.

As long as we continue to dumb down, and accept that as acceptable, then we ain't going anywhere.

As long as we choose to let others rule our lives, rather than rule our own, we will never change this current pattern.

We HAVE to change it though, somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:48 AM

"Mainly because the King was replaced with a murderous religious fanatic who sought to oppress anyone who stood in his way."

Exactly.


What is truly to blame in all of this, is dumbing down. It started with the Corporates creating an 'I MUST HAVE!" society. They did this by taking apart what makes us tick, dissecting every emotion, every fear that humans have, then saturating the species with adverts and images of what you truly need to have a REAL 'life'....

Then, when those images had been burnt into the souls of so many, it set about making The Conveyer Belt of Life, upon which all had to jump (some of course didn't, and don't, and never will)

The Conveyer Belt consists of this:

Birth

Playgroups (pre-school learning alliances I think they call e'm now)

Childminders, whilst parents return to work to pay for bills and all the things which are *essential* for the REAL life.

School
More School (school's important, because it churns out consumers)
Yet more School.

School Prom (vast amounts spent for that)

Gap Year (almost compulsory now)

University
Big Debts
Low Paid Jobs many of which require totally different exams to your Uni ones...
Alcohol...to numb the confusion, bewilderment and depression...
Marriage or partnership
Huge Wedding costing **thousands** otherwise, it you don't love the person concerned, or your children, depending on who's paying for the wedding..
Babies...which you've already decided you won't raise yourself..
More playgroups (this time as from a parent's point of view)
Childminders (so you can return to work as fast as possible to get more money to pay bills or to have the REAL life)
School for your kids
More school
Yet more school
Gap Year
University
Even bigger debts than parents had
Far more alcohol needed to numb pain
Depressed parents
Parents who are talked into remortgaging their house so their kids can have one, otherwise, they don't love their kids....
No pension, what a surprise, it got 'eaten' by someone....
Short gap between pension and death where you say "What the FOOK was that all about?" as realisation takes hold that you were conned...

Death

Sweet release...

Until you er...get born again...when hopefully, you come into the world with your eyes wide open and yell..."Fook off! You had me last time round!"

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:23 AM

One of seven videos:


This one is perhaps the most poignant for this thread:
The Royal Family at Work.....youtube

As I said, their lives are not their own. Would I want a life where I had engagements all day long, then dinners in the evening, and all the time I'm on show, on show, on show....never being able to relax, never being able to relax, let my hair down, say what I want to say.....

There's a great deal I may not agree with, but I'd not swop their lives with mine, despite the wealth.

All offspring of wealthy people usually have 'inherited wealth' I'm sure Posh and Becks will leave their children a vast amount of money, and they in their turn will be lorded as 'celebrities'

At least the Royals do some good and constantly support charities trying to do what they can to balance out things...

Let's face it, the Queen as four children, and three of those four were divorced and went through their own troubles, some of their children are facing their own troubles too.

Would our polliticians knock themselves sideways and be part of over 200 charities, as Princess Anne is? I doubt it.....

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:29 AM

"We did actually dispose of the monarchy for a while back there but it didn't seem to change much."

Mainly because the King was replaced with a murderous religious fanatic who sought to oppress anyone who stood in his way.

I agree about where the real power is, and our elected leaders need to sort that out (I've been writing to my charlatan of an MP - hope everyone else has!), but it's up to us to hold them accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:28 AM

Hey, Lizzie, you're entitled to your opinion and it's one that a lot of people share. Personally, I believe in democracy and that includes an elected head of state. I think that hereditary privilege has no place in a modern society. I think that getting rid of the monarchy and the peerage would prove an inspiration to people in this country and engender a new self-respect - it may even give politicians a kick up the arse.

You say "Prince Charles, who works damned bloody hard at times". How do you know? Does he have a job description? Is his performance monitored? I can tell you something, the majority of people in this country (given the chance) work a damn sight harder and for a great deal less reward. Here's a quote from Charles' former press officer, Mark Bolland, quoted on Janet Street Porter's BBC prog. in 2005: "the Windsor's are very good at working three days a week, five months of a year, and making it look as though they work hard".

Nice work, if you can get it!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:17 PM

kendall - I think if you looked into it, you would discover that the deregulation of banking started under Ronald Squirtgun--it's been dribbling along since that time, and Greenspan and Buchanan are only trying to cover their butts because they are the real guilty ones.
             Greenspan let the interest rates remain dangerously low for an extended period of time so the crash wouldn't come on his watch, and Buchanan is a constant apologist for Ronald Squirtgun.

             Clinton did little to help, though he probably did all he could considering he had Monica tied around his neck. But he helped the maniacs at ACORN and other such organizations prod Congress into pushing for banks to finance houses for people who obviously couldn't afford them. So as much as I liked Clinton, that part of the equation won't go away.

             I would agree, however, that George W. Bush made things worse, both by continuing with deregulation policies, and not doing anything to check the ACORN type groups.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 07:46 PM

Doug, both Allan Greenspan and Pat Buchanan said on national TV that this mortgage mess is the fault of none other than George W. Bush. That's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 07:12 PM

"The middle classes are revolting..."


                   Yes, they are kind of revolting, aren't they.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 05:29 PM

Tangle eye, hardly anyone is getting loans these days & so far the banks ain't bending a bit either. As far as anything aside from a fixed (rate) mortgage, I don't think many lenders will be offering them & probably not many buyers will be applying for them either. The day of the lenders "creative mortage" is past. They made a killing on them but in the process they also killed the goose.
Reguardless, banks will continue to loan as they will won't suffer any arm bending.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Tangledwood
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:56 PM

"No one twists a bank's arm, now or in the past to make a loan they didn't want to."

And nobody forces a consumer to take a $600k mortgage when a $300k one would get them a home perfectly adequate for their needs. What's the bet this whole cycle will happen again. Interest rates, here at least, are at an all time low "to stimulate the economy". So the home buyer rushes out and grabs a mortgage at 5%. In a few years time rates go up to 10% and payments can't be met.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 03:11 PM

Doug, that's ridulious. The dem's have not been in power for the past 2 yrs, the problem goes back a lot farther than that & no one forced the banks to make loans of any kind. No one twists a bank's arm, now or in the past to make a loan they didn't want to.

To blame this on the Democrates id akin to blaming Bush's War on thm too. How much will you'll hold the qwwrong folks responsible for Bush's Blunders?

Get real

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: DougR
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

Teribus: You are partly right regarding who is responsible for the crash. It was the U.S. government (principally the Democrats in Congress)over the last two years they have been in power who forced the banks to make loans to folks who couldn't afford the mortgages. Congressman Barney Frank and (if memory serves) the Senior Senator from Connecticut were primary culprits.

The folks are to blame, too, of course (those who took out mortgages they could not afford).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM

I can imagine nothing sadder than England without her Monarch. We have a history that most countries drool over. We have palaces, castles, cathedrals, filled with Kings and Queens of England, whose history and stories are known throughout the world.

The pomp and circumstance is part of this country.   

I don't understand this attitude to the Royal Family. Yes, some of them are prattish, but you get that in nearly all families. Some of them are probably bloody good people, very kind and caring, again, as in all families.

The Queen has cut back on the Royal List, and she now pays for most of the Hangers On herself. She pays tax. She has people wandering round her palaces. She's dedicated her entire life to her country, with never a whiff of scandal, despite, I'm sure, at times being possibly very unhappy. Even today, her life isn't her own, people to meet, places to go, endless boring functions and pratty talking to pratty people, which must drive her absolutely insane.

She blundered hugely over Princess Diana, Diana's death, and her 'annus horriblis'..but she's lived her life in a very different world to the rest of us.

Take away our Royal Family, and what have you got?

President Blair? No bloody thanks.

The Royals have no power, and to be honest, if I were them, I'd tell this country to shove their heads up their backsides, then I'd b*gger off to the sun and live my life as *I* wanted to...but the Queen has never done that. Neither has Prince Charles, who works damned bloody hard at times, has dozens of charities on the go, has helped endless people set up their own businesses and get their own life, with his Princes Trust...William and Harry have their own charities too.

Yup, they're rich. Bloody annoying isn't it. But I'd rather have them as my figure heads, than controlling, obsessive politicians who are in it for nowt but power and recognition, or those bloody irritating plonkers, Posh & Becks! YUK!

My Dad wouldn't hear a word against the Queen, she was 'his' Queen, that generation who admired and respected the Royals. Life's changed a lot since then, but she's still doing OK.

I think I pay 68 pence a year in tax for the Royals, so we found out in the Prince Harry thread. I truly don't mind, why the hell would I begrude 68 pence a year, because I love all the history that surrounds them, and to be honest, I wish they had more freedom to speak what's in their minds, because Charles, I think, would surprise many people. He's already done a powerful lot for organic farming, championing it for many years BEFORE it became 'fashionable'

There's a host of links to the many GOOD things surrounding the Royals, in the Prince Harry thread, definitely worth looking at. (in the second half of that thread)
The 'Prince Harry' thread

Celebrity Big Brother folks, 1984 Orwellian Political Prats, or a line of Kings and Queens that go back centuries and are still here today?

I'll take the latter thanks, along with thanks to Her Maj for dedicating her life to her country, giving up the life she may have dreamed of.

And whilst we're about it, I miss the Queen Mum's smile.

So there. :0)


Oh, and if you haven't read the book by Sue Townsend, called 'The Queen and I' then you should, because it's so funny. The Royals are made to go and live on a council estate, when the politicians take over....and much fun ensues.

The best way to read this book is to let Miriam Margoyles read it to you in the Audio version, as she is absolutely FANTASTIC!!

The Queen and I - Audio Version

I have never heard a book so wonderfully read. Charles turns his front garden into an allotment, and ends up being arrested for starting a riot. Diana becomes the favourite of all the gals in the neighbourhood, Princess Anne looks after everyone, fixing this and that like a natural...And the Queen and her Mum, along with Philip, end up doing pretty OK, in a sherry filled bungalow kind of way.

The Politicians meanwhile, create absolute chaos and the country goes to the dogs, but hey, the Royals actually start to enjoy their lives at long last, rather than having to live in goldfish bowls where there every move is monitored, watched over and jealousy spat on..

Right, I'm off to practice my curtseying now.

As you were, Ma'am...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 12:20 PM

Since the members of the monarchy have no political clout getting rid of them really isn't going to achieve much, by the time that we have to pay for the upkeep of whatever we put in their place.

We did actually dispose of the monarchy for a while back there but it didn't seem to change much. Countries without a monarchy don't seem to be doing any better than the UK right now so how that would be the magic bullet I can't really see.

To do any good we have to look at where the real power is - political and monetary. To my mind the obscene pay deals given to CEOs and the very comfortable salaries and pensions enjoyed by politicians and civil servants need to be addressed first off. We need to get money circulating more freely, being used for purposes that provide employment instead of being stuck away in high yield accounts by those at the top of the tree.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:44 AM

The upkeep of what, exactly?

If you mean the royal palaces, who do you think funds the Tower of London, Hampton Court, Kensington Palace and Kew Palace, for example?

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM

But Leveller who is paying for the upkeep and why if you opt for your "cheap-to-run" President.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:02 AM

I see no such evidence of any middle class revolt, only evidence of the middle class swallowing what's being force fed down their throats.
I see no signs of general strikes (here in the US or the UK), no signs of mass protest, no boycotts worth mentioning, no speackes at general or mass assembilies, no forming or arming of militia groups (excluding the home grown terrorists gangs). No mass student uprising (well maybe in France). Until the middle class gets off their comfortable duff & rally the poorer classes who've been in constent struggle just surviving they won't achive any gains, either in civil rights, human rights, property rights nor in the basic tools of subsistence & suvival never mind in the areas that should've been theirs to begin with. Like health care(in the US), education, the right for the poor & middle classes to compete in high government/politics, workers rights, etc.
When one sees 3rd world nations going out on general strikes & mass protests that bring down the highest in government offices & then one turns & looks at what they risk in doing that & we talk of revolt, it's nothing but a laughting matter.
Revolt! We can't even get up the public will to protest never mind us considering resistence & revolt is a far cry resistence.
Where are the leaders of the revolt when their aren't even any leaders in passive protest. When we have nothing to lose is when we will resist and by design that will never happen. A slave will revolt when there are no more options or hope left, we are not yet slaves but some of us are close enough to consider any options.

Call me when the revolution is televised!

I went through this in the 60's & it didn't happen then and there was a far better chance of it happening then there is of that happening now

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM

Just giving you the facts, Kendall. The history of the monarchy and the future of the monarchy are separate issues. Why would people stop going to Windsor etc. if the monarchy didn't exist? Just look at the Palace of Versailles, for instance, or even the Tower of London - no longer a royal residence but No.6 on the tourist attraction list.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:16 AM

Well, I'm used to being in the minority but one of the major reasons I started going to the UK was the history of the monarchy. If I stopped going to places such as Windsor,the British treasury wouldn't even know it, but I still believe that if everyone who feels as I do should stop you would feel it.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 05:07 AM

Kendall, the issue of tourism is another spurious one that's often cited as a reason for retaining the monarchy, but it has no relevance to fundamental issues of the British constitution.

However, here are the facts.

Firstly, why on earth would we want to tear down the royal residences (not the personal property of the Windsors) and turn them into condominiums (whatever they are)? We're not, generally, in the habit of demolishing our historic monuments – except, maybe, to build new airport runways. It would make much more economic sense to have them fully opened, all year round, to the public, who could then enjoy all the facilities and artefacts that are currently available only to the Windsors.

Secondly, there is no evidence that the royal family is a particular tourist attraction. Visit Britain, the government body responsible for tourism, does not even collate statistics on the monarchy as an attraction, so it is evidently not seen as a major factor. The only royal residence to make it onto the top 20 of tourist attractions is Windsor Castle, at 17 – well below, say, Legoland in Windsor, at 7. The City of York, near where I live, has no royal residences yet is the second-most popular tourist city in Britain.

Tourists come to Britain for a myriad of reasons but I don't think that a little old lady sat in her big house is a major one.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

I probably should not comment, but I have to wonder, if you do away with the monarchy won't that have a negative effect on tourism? For my part, I see the Queen as a focal point who represents the UK, and if the government should take over Windsor castle, Hatfield House and Hampton Court, tears them all down for condominiums or sports stadiums I sure as hell won't spend a farthing to visit those places again.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Too true Rosie, as can be seen only too clearly on this thread. Everyone's pet peeves come parading out with no real thought about what is really best for the country or how to make a real difference.

We haven't done so well with elected PMs or presidents recently.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:37 AM

"they were never, in over 1000 years, the property of the crown."

Rather, the property of the monarch.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:20 AM

"Please note leveler:
"On George III's accession on 25 October 1760 he surrendered 'Crown lands' held in England, Wales and Scotland to the state in return for an annual 'civil list' payment."

If that ANNUAL 'civil list' payment is not paid to the King or Queen, because they have been replaced by a President, then the contract made on the 25th October 1760 is broken and Crown Lands revert to their rightful owners."

Actually, it was Sir Michael Peart, Charles's private secretary's suggestion that the Windsors receive an income from the Crown Estates rather than the Civil List that prompted the response above, from royal legal experts. I did not suggest that the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall were part of the Crown Estates. This does not alter the basic and incontrovertible fact that the Crown Estates have awlays and still do belong to the state - so there is no question or their 'reverting' to the crown as they were never, in over 1000 years, the property of the crown.

Back to the relevance to my original post - let's not forget that the English Civil War and the establishment of the Commonwealth were the result of a dispute between the middle classes of the time and the monarchy. Inevitably, as Sugarfoot Jack intimates, the majority of 'ordinary' or landless people were betrayed by self-interest.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:17 AM

"Mind you, this is the sort of mess from which the likes of Hitler rose. Charismatics can quite often make the pendulum swing too far the other way."

Aye, the big dangers of any revolution, are that the worst aspects of human nature lets loose. The major problem I see with the UK, is that it won't be a peoples revolution at all, it'll end up being a version of some kind of civil war. With major socio-political splitting between extremes of 'progressive' left wing anarcho-communist type movements (which would necessitate serious WORK and co-operation between those willing and enlightened enough to *take responsiblity* for reforging a workable alternative) on the one hand. And the hard right on the other... Nationalism and mass scapegoating of the most ugly and dangerous kind, could burgeon like a forest fire after a long hot summer IMO. But especially amongst those who will be throwing their toys out of their prams because they're not getting drip-fed their tranquilisers any more.

I can't justify my thoughts on this to be fair, it's simply the way it pans out in my imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:07 AM

"...Who's going to be made the scapegoat for the ills of the modern world this time?"


Ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:52 AM

Bread and circuses the Romans used. Still in use today.

Give the 'masses' their celebs, reality TV programmes and sport and keep 'em happy.

When I worked in an office I was an outsider because I wasn't interested in the major topics of discussion - what had been on TV the night before or the sports news. A good friend of ours said, only the other day, that the number of people that he knows who can converse about things that can't be seen or felt is growing smaller.

Maybe, with a tightening of the belts, more people will wake up to what is actually happening in the world.

Mind you, this is the sort of mess from which the likes of Hitler rose. Charismatics can quite often make the pendulum swing too far the other way. Who's going to be made the scapegoat for the ills of the modern world this time?

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

I think there could be a revolution. Possibly like a lot of people - ever since I was a teenager I've always believed that there would be some major political and social upheaval within my lifetime. And IMO the system itself has been 'preparing' for its possible arrival too. Governments know how much of a tinder box a populace without it's regular little opiate fix can be. That's why we're getting watched so much, and having our rights to legitimately grumble/make a noise/gather increasingly criminalised. It's also the only real reason they keep trying to foist ID cards on us all IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

Sorry that of course should have been "Good post Lizzie":

The Duchy of Lancaster:
The duchy is not the property of The Crown, but is instead the personal (inherited) property of the monarch and has been since 1399.

The Duchy of Cornwall:
There is a large body of evidence collated by the Attorney General to the Duchy of Cornwall in the 1858 Cornish Foreshore Case that showed Cornwall to be extra-territorial to England. For example on George III's accession on 25 October 1760 he surrendered 'Crown lands' held in England, Wales and Scotland to the state in return for an annual 'civil list' payment. The Duchy of Cornwall, i.e. Cornwall, was excluded from this legal arrangement, so today the Crown Estates has no jurisdiction in Cornwall.

High Sheriffs must by law swear an oath of allegiance to the sovereign, but the High Sheriff of Cornwall swears an oath of allegiance to the Duke. Nearly all laws passed for England and Wales today do not apply to the Duke or his territorial possession known as the Duchy of Cornwall and only two named individuals in the UK have Crown Immunity – the sovereign of the UK and the sovereign of Cornwall "in right of his Duchy of Cornwall".

Various laws, and the government's own legal department, state that the Duchy of Cornwall is co-terminus with the administrative area of Cornwall and to this day, the Queen is the owner of last resort of all land in England, Wales and Scotland, but not of Cornwall. These exemptions (which are applied on grounds that the Duchy is not part of England and Wales), reflect a constitutional situation that the Duke is able to protect by right to intervene in, and control the outcome of, any court case that might affect the Duchy's unique constitutional position.

Please note leveler:
"On George III's accession on 25 October 1760 he surrendered 'Crown lands' held in England, Wales and Scotland to the state in return for an annual 'civil list' payment."

If that ANNUAL 'civil list' payment is not paid to the King or Queen, because they have been replaced by a President, then the contract made on the 25th October 1760 is broken and Crown Lands revert to their rightful owners.

It would be a fascinating case, but one great thing about English Law, it is absolutely clear when it comes to property title and protection of property. My guess is the Queen or her descendants would win, worst case they'd come out of it with one hell of a settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:30 AM

But we do have a fine history of iconoclasm and recalcitrance in this country (hence the reason the Royals get bashed - they are also a part of the Establishment), as well as a history of demonstration and campaigning against the ills inflicted on the ordinary folk of our Islands:

The Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Suffragettes, Winstanley and the The Diggers, The Levellers and Freeborn John, the poll tax riots, the miners strike, The Jarrow March, the People's March for Jobs years later, Greenham Common, CND, Chartism, Marx and Engels, The Luddites, a million people protesting against the Iraq war etc etc were all protesters and agents of social reform that were rebelling against the self-serving ruling classes of the Monarchy, Aristocracy, Church and State.

And these are just the English ones, we haven't even taken into account those who have rebelled against the oppression of the Crown since the year dot in the other countries we share our Islands and heritage with.

In my opinion the rise in consumerism has taken the edge off any displays of militancy that the population might display these days; as long as people are more interested in buying shit they don't need than the welfare of their fellow citizens then you can kiss goodbye to the revolution.

However . . . recession and hard time mean people can't afford to buy the shit the don't need and this can focus the mind. I look forward to the mob tearing down Cromwell's statue and throwing rotten veg at the one of Queen Victoria outside Buck Pal, then heading off to Westminster to hold those spineless lackeys of big business to account and make them finally realise they have to answer to the people and work in their interest and their interest alone.

I still think it could happen.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:28 AM

This looked like being an interesting discussion. Shame it's been taken over by the fringe elements.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:08 AM

Teribus, for an explanation or corporation sole, see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:03 AM

I wonder if today's leaders remember what happened to the great Il Duce Mussolini?

The scariest thing on earth is mob rule.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 07:58 AM

Sorry, Teribus, I'm not wrong.

The Crown's legal status is that of corporation sole, an independent legal entity with the right to hold assets. To suggest that the Queen personally 'owns' and 'gives' the assets and revenues of this incorporated body is as ludicrous as suggesting that the Chairman of a public company personally 'owns' and 'gives' the assets and tax revenues of the incorprated body he or she represents.

So no 'smash and grab, there. Just the state taking back what it already owns. Perfectly legal and above board.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:59 AM

Goos post Lizzie

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:37 AM

Well, yes, Lizzie I understand what you're saying. However, we're talking about a 'revolution' here and you have to start at the top. What is wrong with the Windsors is symptomatic of what is wrong with the country as a whole. Get rid of the monarchy and you start to get rid of the privilege, snobbery, class prejudice and corruption that is endemic within it.

Many of us do not avoid the real issue, nor are we apathetic. We seek real social change. This sort of root and branch change can only happen in a Republic.

I have to say that I am not as gloomy as you about the state of the country - what we need to get rid of is this new cult of the celebrity. Let's get rid of the top celebrities first - the Windsors.

May I correct a mistake in my previous post? "As Sir Michael Peat pointed out.." should read; "As was pointed out to Sir Michael Peat..."

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:27 AM

Think you are mistaken leveller.

The deal with the "Crown Estates" were made over 200 years ago, when the monarchs estates could not generate the income required to maintain the court. As part of the deal for a "constitutional" monarchy the Government paid the King's bills and took the revenue from the "Crown Estates" - at that time the King came out ahead.

Over the years things altered especially with the arrival of Victoria's husband Albert who was an extremely capable and shrewd administrator and businessman. From being virtually penniless on her succession to the throne to the time of her death Victoria saw a complete reversal in the finances of the Royal family.

Were the monarchy to be abolished, the deal by which the Government of the day receives the income from the Crown Estates lapses. While Elizabeth is Queen of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, in her own right she is also Duke of Lancaster. While the title of Queen may be taken from her as the Head of State is replaced by a President, the title and revenues from the Duchy of Lancaster cannot. Same applies to Prince Charles with the title and revenues from the Duchy of Cornwall.

As for a potential smash and grab by the Government in order to disposess a private "citizen" of their property for the governments gain, they would find themselves at fault with the law of the land and perceived by all as a threat. The Government cannot be seen to rob its own citizens, who might know where it might end.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:25 AM

Sad to see this turning into another thread about bashing the Royals. They're not the real problem. Whilst people waste their time getting angry about them, the ones who are truly corrupt, who DO have power, and who are using that power, entrusted to them by us, to abuse, to steal, to cover up, to drag us down, to tax us to the hilt...whilst they live their political lives surrounded by second homes, second incomes, second 'lives', are robbing this country blind.

They are robbing our children of the joy of learning, with their constant over-testing, now verging on the point of insanity..

They are robbing our people with taxes which are beyond belief.

They are robbing our morality in their quest to be part of the Celebrity Circus of Cool Britannia.

They are robbing our minds, from thinking at a deep level.

They are robbing our freedom with their ever increasing laws.

They are robbing our intelligence with their constant dumbing down.

Most of all though, they have robbed us of our Individual and Collective Will.


And what do we do?

We avoid the REAL issue completely, as if we have been trained liked Pavlov's Dogs, to only react to certain stimuli...

They have removed the reaction we may once have had towards corruption, dishonesty, immoral behaviour, truth, decency, integrity and honesty, and have turned so many into a pack of baying wolves, who respond to issues of no significance, whilst those in power carry on with their evil deeds, in a country that no longer cares to raise its head above the pages of Hello Magazine, in a world that is unable to think, beyond the next episode of The X Factor.

"Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand" - Bodie Thoene

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 05:21 AM

Teribus, you are under the misconception that the Crown Estates belong to the monarch. They don't. They belong to the monarchy, i.e the state. They would therefore, still be the property of the state in a republic. Sir Michael Peat pointed out: "The Crown Estate income has always been for paying the expenses of government. When the monarch was effectivelty the government that is the basis on which he or she received the income. It was never private income. Now that government is the state, the state receives it."

The Royal family have paid ioncome tax on SOME of their income. Never on all of it. They won't declare what percentage they pay tax on so the £5.5 million is an estimate.

Much of the security bill for the younger royals, in particular, is for looking after them while they get into trouble, puke up in gutters and generally act like spoilt brats. The Dispatches programme brought this out very well and also talked to someone who had been in charge of royal security. Watch it if you get the chance.

Incidentally, how do you justify Harry's flight in an RAF helicopter to see his girlfreind? The official cost of this, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, was £86,000.

Official residences could be fully opened to the public and generate income as tourist attractions, like the Tower of London, or be used for other purposes to generate income.

You may have a low opinion about the British electorate but we live in a democracy and whoever is voted as head of state will be who the people want, whatever your elitist opinion. Not someone there purely by accident of birth. William, in my opinion, behave worse than any Big Broither contestant.

As for the cost of a President, this are much cheaper than a monarch. Here's some for comparison:
Ireland £1.5 million
Austria £3.5 million
Finland £7.9 million
Germany £9.9 million

It's worth noting that a so-called "working" royal costs 17 times as much as an MP.

Perhaps you'd like to get your facts straight, rather than relying on the misleading information put out by the Windsor's PR machine.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:40 AM

With the United Kingdom as a Republic, your "Head of State" - more than likely the winner of some "reality" TV show that we could all vote for, or possibly Posh & Becks would require what?

- Official Residences requiring staff and upkeep - £40 million
- Security as the United Kingdom's Head of State that would extend to their whole family - £100 million as estimated by the Times.
- Costs met by local councils for visits - £10 million

Well that has taken care of the £150 million that you were supposed to have saved.

Whose unpaid taxes are conservatively estimated to run in excess of £5.5 million??

Grant in Aid to Prince Charles £2 million - Don't Grants have to be repaid??

Now then as the Crown no longer exists in this UK Republic, I take it that the "Crown Estates" would revert to their owners, wouldn't they. Any idea leveller how much they pump into the Exchequor - it would be worth your while taking a good look at that, they've got rather a good web-site, or at least it was last time I looked. According to the last set of published figures leveller the "Crown Estates" contributed over £207 million to the Inland Revenue.

By the bye leveller ALL members of the Royal family including the Queen have paid income tax since about 1992. And to give you an idea of what I am talking about about here is an article written by Mira Bar-Hillel for the London "Evening Standard" on 9th July 2002:

THE QUEEN'S "income tax", in the form of profits from the Crown Estate paid to the Exchequer today, has gone up by more than 10 per cent on last year to pound sterling163.3 million.

The amount is more than 4.5 times the total cost of the royal family, which stands at pound sterling35.3 million. The capital value of the Crown Estate was up by 4.4 per cent to pound sterling4.2 billion.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:23 AM

Last night's Channel 4 Dispatches programme gave some interesting insights into the Windsors and the amount of taxpayers' money they waste.

Anyone interested in having an elected head of state might like to join Republic. More info here

http://www.republic.org.uk/

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:17 AM

Now you're talking, Jack! Exactly where I'm coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:11 AM

After finally shaking off the Norman Yoke and putting the Windsors on jobseekers allowance (Chaz would have to put his own toothpaste on his brush - the horror!) we could get to work returning some of the land stolen by the Church and other wealthy landowners back to people whose common treasury it should be - the rest of us.

Winstanley had the right idea!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:07 AM

I think the Royal family are a bit irrelevent to this, although their rationale for existing is of course up for debate.

The problem is that with the collapse of communism, there is now no real focus for resistance; capitalism and communism have both gone down the plughole leaving us all in the bath with no soap.

Perhaps we should delve into the roots of Britsih socialism and start looking at people like Tom Paine again.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:59 AM

"Any further explanation on that £150 million saving "leveller"??"

Certainly. The Windsors themselves admit to £40 million. What they don't add is the bill for security, estimated by The Times at over £100 million; unpaid taxes, conservatively estimated at in excess of £5.5 million; Grant in Aid to Charles of £2 million; and costs met by local councils for visits etc. conservatively estimated by Republic, based on Freedon of Information requests from local councils, at in excess of £10 million. So, the £150 million is, in effect, on the low side.

Do you have figures that contradict these? I'd be interested in seeing them.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:46 AM

"I'd start with making Great Britain a republic and get rid of those totally useless, greedy, disfunctional, racist and crooked Windsors along with the divisive titles and privileges they support. That would save the country £150 million a year for a start."

Any further explanation on that £150 million saving "leveller"??

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:32 AM

The Leveller: "I'd start with making Great Britain a republic and get rid of those totally useless, greedy, disfunctional, racist and crooked Windsors"

But why destroy such a valuable national asset!?

I reckon we aught to auction them off to the highest bidder. The healthy young breeders aught to fetch a shiny penny. Though some of the toothless old hangers on, might not go so well.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:23 AM

Personally, I think that any revolution should aim to wipe out the class system altogether. I'd start with making Great Britain a republic and get rid of those totally useless, greedy, disfunctional, racist and crooked Windsors along with the divisive titles and privileges they support. That would save the country £150 million a year for a start. Now, where shall we go from there......?

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:49 AM

No I think it was mortgage brokers in the US pushing banks and lending houses into granting people loans that they would otherwise have never been given. The banks mistakenly assumed that the mortgage brokers supply of money for this purpose was guaranteed by the Government - it wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Tangledwood
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:44 AM

Not wishing to let politicians or finance managers off the hook, but wasn't it the middle class using credit to live well beyond their means that triggered the start of the present crash?

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:45 PM

The middle classes are revolting...You're telling me!

In the immortal words of Chester A. Riley, "Whatta revoltin' development this is!"

I heard a man revolted three times in Chicago in the past election.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: GUEST,jayto
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:16 PM

"And if anyone is looking for someone to *start* The Rebellion, then I volunteer!"

A woman after my own heart. You are great Lizzie
cya
JT

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM

The middle classes are revolting.
The lower classes are appalling.
The upper classes are disgusting.
The working classes are reviling.
The idle classes are poncing
The political classes are fabricating.
The corporate classes are faslsifying.
The religious classes are confusing.
The drinking classes are reeling.
The smoking classes are stinking.
The eating classes are puking.
The mathematics classes are multiplying.
And the rest of us? Why, we are astonishing.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:20 AM

When I was concerned about an issue in my state a couple of years back I sent emails to a few of the State Senators and Representatives regarding the issue. I was quite surprised to receive a personal telephone response from one of the Senators.

He informed me that sending emails was "inappropriate."

When I asked what method he would suggest for stating my opinion on the issue, he advised me I should

"MAKE A SIGN AND GO STAND OUTSIDE THE COURTHOUSE."

So there you have it from the voice of authority:

Civil demonstration is the approved method of being heard.

(At least in Kansas.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

And if anyone is looking for someone to *start* The Rebellion, then I volunteer!

Get me on a radio station, get me on a TV station and watch me explode, because I've been sitting on this for WAY TOO LONG!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

Why Resistance is Essential


"You have the right to remain silent...we hope that you don't..."


"There comes a time when silence....is betrayal" - Martin Luther King Jr.

"Such a time is NOW"


From Ron's ('bankley' on here) BRILLIANT 'Insurgent Sun' CD, which I cannot recommend highly enough!


ANTHEM FOR DISSENT
By Ann Onimus, John Boncore and Ron Bankley

"United in fear we trade freedom, our prize for the Patriot Act as united we securitize
United in power over patriarchy, we misogynize
United in self-righteous arrogance, we imperialise
Untied in degenerate genital mutilation, we circumcise
United we consume and spend, and, united, we capitalize
United in greed we exploit, as united we multinationalize
United we commit economic suicide as, united, we globalise
United in beligerent violence, we waste trillions as, united, we militarize
United we massacre millions and think we're so brave
United we fantasize
United we bomb, destroy, maim, mass murder, slaughter and terrorize
United in massive denial we look the other way, as united, we atrocitize
United in 'might makes right', we dominate and, united, we hegemonize
United we pillage the third world and then, united, we moralize
United we covet their resources and, united, we monopolize
United in total denial we deny that, united, we brutalize
United we believe without question the star spangled propaganda our leaders so unceasingly televise
United we, so very obediently, swallow the many fabricated red white and blue lies
United we're so blind, with closed eyes except wide-eyed Ashcroft spies
And in the many resource rich countries that, united, we occupy and we colonize
And united we impoverish and victimize
Yet another corporate billion is pried and yet another heart broken mother cries and yet another star spangled bomb drops
And yet another innocent child heinously dies
Yet another example of united we collateralize
Just U.S. business as usual, as united we privatize
United we stand completely deranged
Global terrorist in our 'freedom and democracy' disguise
As united we stand apathetic and complicit in American terrorism
As united we turn on TV to de-sensitise
As united we stand in massive denial
As united we ignore the innocent pleas of the innocent ones we exterminate
As united we stand inanely pledging allegiance to the flag of facist terrorism
As their blood on it dries
As united we stand, surrendering our freedom to the real 'axis of evil' Corporation, CIA, and Military guise
As united we stand with our heads in the sand, as the American Fourth Reich is born
And freedom dies
As united we stand so comfortably numb and deniably dumb
That united we don't have sense to realise
That united we stand on the brink of the New World Order totalitarian police state
United we are so......
Blind"

The website of Splitting The Sky (John Boncore) who narrates 'Anthem for Dissent'

Splitting The Sky

Justice Through Music - Where you can hear Anthem for Dissent


We have ALL been silent for too long, helped there by a Corporate Orwellian World that has sought to remove the Individual, the Voice, the Thought......

FINALLY ****WE**** are waking up!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:40 AM

Perhaps it is time we started a 'People's Party'
There is after all, nobody representing them of the present clutch of self serving, professional politicians.
It's time we got back to the 'Of the people,for the people, by the people' concept.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:40 AM

Last year I heard a talk by Edwina Currie on her three (or was it five) rules you must follow to be a successful politician.

None of them mentioned electors.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:28 AM

Maybe if enough 'ordinary' people join in the government might have to start taking a bit more notice. Didn't do a lot of good at the time of the start of the Iraq war though.

Maybe we all ought to be looking more closely at those that we vote into office, regardless of their or our political preference. Maybe we should be asking some very pointed questions of our candidates as to their take on how government runs things. Maybe we should be pointing out to these people, before we vote for them, that we put them into office and we pay their wages.

Subject: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:42 AM

It seems that people in the UK are becoming more militant as the effects of the 'new depression' are hitting wider, deeper and faster.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7905172.stm

It's now envisaged that the usually complacent and compliant 'middle classes' will become involved in civil disobedience as they suddenly become personally affected by issues from which they had previously been shielded and had chosen to overlook with an 'it couldn't happen to us' attitude.

So, are they (we) right to protest? Is civil disobedience a legitimate means of political protest to a situation that successive governments have created and have now allowed to get out of control?