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BS: The middle classes are revolting

theleveller 23 Feb 09 - 06:42 AM
jacqui.c 23 Feb 09 - 07:28 AM
DMcG 23 Feb 09 - 07:40 AM
John MacKenzie 23 Feb 09 - 07:40 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 23 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 23 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM
JohnInKansas 23 Feb 09 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 23 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,jayto 23 Feb 09 - 09:16 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Feb 09 - 09:45 PM
Tangledwood 24 Feb 09 - 02:44 AM
Teribus 24 Feb 09 - 02:49 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 03:23 AM
Sleepy Rosie 24 Feb 09 - 03:32 AM
Teribus 24 Feb 09 - 03:46 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 03:59 AM
Acorn4 24 Feb 09 - 04:07 AM
Stu 24 Feb 09 - 04:11 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 04:17 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 04:23 AM
Teribus 24 Feb 09 - 04:40 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 05:21 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Feb 09 - 06:25 AM
Teribus 24 Feb 09 - 06:27 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 06:37 AM
Teribus 24 Feb 09 - 06:59 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 07:58 AM
kendall 24 Feb 09 - 08:03 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 08:08 AM
jacqui.c 24 Feb 09 - 08:28 AM
Stu 24 Feb 09 - 08:30 AM
Teribus 24 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM
Sleepy Rosie 24 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM
jacqui.c 24 Feb 09 - 09:52 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Feb 09 - 11:07 AM
Sleepy Rosie 24 Feb 09 - 11:17 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 11:20 AM
theleveller 24 Feb 09 - 11:37 AM
jacqui.c 24 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM
kendall 24 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM
theleveller 25 Feb 09 - 05:07 AM
kendall 25 Feb 09 - 08:16 AM
theleveller 25 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM
Barry Finn 25 Feb 09 - 09:02 AM
Teribus 25 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM
theleveller 25 Feb 09 - 11:44 AM
jacqui.c 25 Feb 09 - 12:20 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 25 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM
DougR 25 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM
Barry Finn 25 Feb 09 - 03:11 PM

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Subject: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:42 AM

It seems that people in the UK are becoming more militant as the effects of the 'new depression' are hitting wider, deeper and faster.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7905172.stm

It's now envisaged that the usually complacent and compliant 'middle classes' will become involved in civil disobedience as they suddenly become personally affected by issues from which they had previously been shielded and had chosen to overlook with an 'it couldn't happen to us' attitude.

So, are they (we) right to protest? Is civil disobedience a legitimate means of political protest to a situation that successive governments have created and have now allowed to get out of control?


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:28 AM

Maybe if enough 'ordinary' people join in the government might have to start taking a bit more notice. Didn't do a lot of good at the time of the start of the Iraq war though.

Maybe we all ought to be looking more closely at those that we vote into office, regardless of their or our political preference. Maybe we should be asking some very pointed questions of our candidates as to their take on how government runs things. Maybe we should be pointing out to these people, before we vote for them, that we put them into office and we pay their wages.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:40 AM

Last year I heard a talk by Edwina Currie on her three (or was it five) rules you must follow to be a successful politician.

None of them mentioned electors.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:40 AM

Perhaps it is time we started a 'People's Party'
There is after all, nobody representing them of the present clutch of self serving, professional politicians.
It's time we got back to the 'Of the people,for the people, by the people' concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

Why Resistance is Essential


"You have the right to remain silent...we hope that you don't..."


"There comes a time when silence....is betrayal" - Martin Luther King Jr.

"Such a time is NOW"


From Ron's ('bankley' on here) BRILLIANT 'Insurgent Sun' CD, which I cannot recommend highly enough!


ANTHEM FOR DISSENT
By Ann Onimus, John Boncore and Ron Bankley

"United in fear we trade freedom, our prize for the Patriot Act as united we securitize
United in power over patriarchy, we misogynize
United in self-righteous arrogance, we imperialise
Untied in degenerate genital mutilation, we circumcise
United we consume and spend, and, united, we capitalize
United in greed we exploit, as united we multinationalize
United we commit economic suicide as, united, we globalise
United in beligerent violence, we waste trillions as, united, we militarize
United we massacre millions and think we're so brave
United we fantasize
United we bomb, destroy, maim, mass murder, slaughter and terrorize
United in massive denial we look the other way, as united, we atrocitize
United in 'might makes right', we dominate and, united, we hegemonize
United we pillage the third world and then, united, we moralize
United we covet their resources and, united, we monopolize
United in total denial we deny that, united, we brutalize
United we believe without question the star spangled propaganda our leaders so unceasingly televise
United we, so very obediently, swallow the many fabricated red white and blue lies
United we're so blind, with closed eyes except wide-eyed Ashcroft spies
And in the many resource rich countries that, united, we occupy and we colonize
And united we impoverish and victimize
Yet another corporate billion is pried and yet another heart broken mother cries and yet another star spangled bomb drops
And yet another innocent child heinously dies
Yet another example of united we collateralize
Just U.S. business as usual, as united we privatize
United we stand completely deranged
Global terrorist in our 'freedom and democracy' disguise
As united we stand apathetic and complicit in American terrorism
As united we turn on TV to de-sensitise
As united we stand in massive denial
As united we ignore the innocent pleas of the innocent ones we exterminate
As united we stand inanely pledging allegiance to the flag of facist terrorism
As their blood on it dries
As united we stand, surrendering our freedom to the real 'axis of evil' Corporation, CIA, and Military guise
As united we stand with our heads in the sand, as the American Fourth Reich is born
And freedom dies
As united we stand so comfortably numb and deniably dumb
That united we don't have sense to realise
That united we stand on the brink of the New World Order totalitarian police state
United we are so......
Blind"

The website of Splitting The Sky (John Boncore) who narrates 'Anthem for Dissent'

Splitting The Sky

Justice Through Music - Where you can hear Anthem for Dissent


We have ALL been silent for too long, helped there by a Corporate Orwellian World that has sought to remove the Individual, the Voice, the Thought......

FINALLY ****WE**** are waking up!


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

And if anyone is looking for someone to *start* The Rebellion, then I volunteer!

Get me on a radio station, get me on a TV station and watch me explode, because I've been sitting on this for WAY TOO LONG!


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:20 AM

When I was concerned about an issue in my state a couple of years back I sent emails to a few of the State Senators and Representatives regarding the issue. I was quite surprised to receive a personal telephone response from one of the Senators.

He informed me that sending emails was "inappropriate."

When I asked what method he would suggest for stating my opinion on the issue, he advised me I should

"MAKE A SIGN AND GO STAND OUTSIDE THE COURTHOUSE."

So there you have it from the voice of authority:

Civil demonstration is the approved method of being heard.

(At least in Kansas.)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM

The middle classes are revolting.
The lower classes are appalling.
The upper classes are disgusting.
The working classes are reviling.
The idle classes are poncing
The political classes are fabricating.
The corporate classes are faslsifying.
The religious classes are confusing.
The drinking classes are reeling.
The smoking classes are stinking.
The eating classes are puking.
The mathematics classes are multiplying.
And the rest of us? Why, we are astonishing.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: GUEST,jayto
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:16 PM

"And if anyone is looking for someone to *start* The Rebellion, then I volunteer!"

A woman after my own heart. You are great Lizzie
cya
JT


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:45 PM

The middle classes are revolting...You're telling me!

In the immortal words of Chester A. Riley, "Whatta revoltin' development this is!"

I heard a man revolted three times in Chicago in the past election.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Tangledwood
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:44 AM

Not wishing to let politicians or finance managers off the hook, but wasn't it the middle class using credit to live well beyond their means that triggered the start of the present crash?


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:49 AM

No I think it was mortgage brokers in the US pushing banks and lending houses into granting people loans that they would otherwise have never been given. The banks mistakenly assumed that the mortgage brokers supply of money for this purpose was guaranteed by the Government - it wasn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:23 AM

Personally, I think that any revolution should aim to wipe out the class system altogether. I'd start with making Great Britain a republic and get rid of those totally useless, greedy, disfunctional, racist and crooked Windsors along with the divisive titles and privileges they support. That would save the country £150 million a year for a start. Now, where shall we go from there......?


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:32 AM

The Leveller: "I'd start with making Great Britain a republic and get rid of those totally useless, greedy, disfunctional, racist and crooked Windsors"

But why destroy such a valuable national asset!?

I reckon we aught to auction them off to the highest bidder. The healthy young breeders aught to fetch a shiny penny. Though some of the toothless old hangers on, might not go so well.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:46 AM

"I'd start with making Great Britain a republic and get rid of those totally useless, greedy, disfunctional, racist and crooked Windsors along with the divisive titles and privileges they support. That would save the country £150 million a year for a start."

Any further explanation on that £150 million saving "leveller"??


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:59 AM

"Any further explanation on that £150 million saving "leveller"??"

Certainly. The Windsors themselves admit to £40 million. What they don't add is the bill for security, estimated by The Times at over £100 million; unpaid taxes, conservatively estimated at in excess of £5.5 million; Grant in Aid to Charles of £2 million; and costs met by local councils for visits etc. conservatively estimated by Republic, based on Freedon of Information requests from local councils, at in excess of £10 million. So, the £150 million is, in effect, on the low side.

Do you have figures that contradict these? I'd be interested in seeing them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:07 AM

I think the Royal family are a bit irrelevent to this, although their rationale for existing is of course up for debate.

The problem is that with the collapse of communism, there is now no real focus for resistance; capitalism and communism have both gone down the plughole leaving us all in the bath with no soap.

Perhaps we should delve into the roots of Britsih socialism and start looking at people like Tom Paine again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:11 AM

After finally shaking off the Norman Yoke and putting the Windsors on jobseekers allowance (Chaz would have to put his own toothpaste on his brush - the horror!) we could get to work returning some of the land stolen by the Church and other wealthy landowners back to people whose common treasury it should be - the rest of us.

Winstanley had the right idea!


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:17 AM

Now you're talking, Jack! Exactly where I'm coming from.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:23 AM

Last night's Channel 4 Dispatches programme gave some interesting insights into the Windsors and the amount of taxpayers' money they waste.

Anyone interested in having an elected head of state might like to join Republic. More info here

http://www.republic.org.uk/


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:40 AM

With the United Kingdom as a Republic, your "Head of State" - more than likely the winner of some "reality" TV show that we could all vote for, or possibly Posh & Becks would require what?

- Official Residences requiring staff and upkeep - £40 million
- Security as the United Kingdom's Head of State that would extend to their whole family - £100 million as estimated by the Times.
- Costs met by local councils for visits - £10 million

Well that has taken care of the £150 million that you were supposed to have saved.

Whose unpaid taxes are conservatively estimated to run in excess of £5.5 million??

Grant in Aid to Prince Charles £2 million - Don't Grants have to be repaid??

Now then as the Crown no longer exists in this UK Republic, I take it that the "Crown Estates" would revert to their owners, wouldn't they. Any idea leveller how much they pump into the Exchequor - it would be worth your while taking a good look at that, they've got rather a good web-site, or at least it was last time I looked. According to the last set of published figures leveller the "Crown Estates" contributed over £207 million to the Inland Revenue.

By the bye leveller ALL members of the Royal family including the Queen have paid income tax since about 1992. And to give you an idea of what I am talking about about here is an article written by Mira Bar-Hillel for the London "Evening Standard" on 9th July 2002:

THE QUEEN'S "income tax", in the form of profits from the Crown Estate paid to the Exchequer today, has gone up by more than 10 per cent on last year to pound sterling163.3 million.

The amount is more than 4.5 times the total cost of the royal family, which stands at pound sterling35.3 million. The capital value of the Crown Estate was up by 4.4 per cent to pound sterling4.2 billion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 05:21 AM

Teribus, you are under the misconception that the Crown Estates belong to the monarch. They don't. They belong to the monarchy, i.e the state. They would therefore, still be the property of the state in a republic. Sir Michael Peat pointed out: "The Crown Estate income has always been for paying the expenses of government. When the monarch was effectivelty the government that is the basis on which he or she received the income. It was never private income. Now that government is the state, the state receives it."

The Royal family have paid ioncome tax on SOME of their income. Never on all of it. They won't declare what percentage they pay tax on so the £5.5 million is an estimate.

Much of the security bill for the younger royals, in particular, is for looking after them while they get into trouble, puke up in gutters and generally act like spoilt brats. The Dispatches programme brought this out very well and also talked to someone who had been in charge of royal security. Watch it if you get the chance.

Incidentally, how do you justify Harry's flight in an RAF helicopter to see his girlfreind? The official cost of this, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, was £86,000.

Official residences could be fully opened to the public and generate income as tourist attractions, like the Tower of London, or be used for other purposes to generate income.

You may have a low opinion about the British electorate but we live in a democracy and whoever is voted as head of state will be who the people want, whatever your elitist opinion. Not someone there purely by accident of birth. William, in my opinion, behave worse than any Big Broither contestant.

As for the cost of a President, this are much cheaper than a monarch. Here's some for comparison:
Ireland £1.5 million
Austria £3.5 million
Finland £7.9 million
Germany £9.9 million

It's worth noting that a so-called "working" royal costs 17 times as much as an MP.

Perhaps you'd like to get your facts straight, rather than relying on the misleading information put out by the Windsor's PR machine.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:25 AM

Sad to see this turning into another thread about bashing the Royals. They're not the real problem. Whilst people waste their time getting angry about them, the ones who are truly corrupt, who DO have power, and who are using that power, entrusted to them by us, to abuse, to steal, to cover up, to drag us down, to tax us to the hilt...whilst they live their political lives surrounded by second homes, second incomes, second 'lives', are robbing this country blind.

They are robbing our children of the joy of learning, with their constant over-testing, now verging on the point of insanity..

They are robbing our people with taxes which are beyond belief.

They are robbing our morality in their quest to be part of the Celebrity Circus of Cool Britannia.

They are robbing our minds, from thinking at a deep level.

They are robbing our freedom with their ever increasing laws.

They are robbing our intelligence with their constant dumbing down.

Most of all though, they have robbed us of our Individual and Collective Will.


And what do we do?

We avoid the REAL issue completely, as if we have been trained liked Pavlov's Dogs, to only react to certain stimuli...

They have removed the reaction we may once have had towards corruption, dishonesty, immoral behaviour, truth, decency, integrity and honesty, and have turned so many into a pack of baying wolves, who respond to issues of no significance, whilst those in power carry on with their evil deeds, in a country that no longer cares to raise its head above the pages of Hello Magazine, in a world that is unable to think, beyond the next episode of The X Factor.

"Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand" - Bodie Thoene


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:27 AM

Think you are mistaken leveller.

The deal with the "Crown Estates" were made over 200 years ago, when the monarchs estates could not generate the income required to maintain the court. As part of the deal for a "constitutional" monarchy the Government paid the King's bills and took the revenue from the "Crown Estates" - at that time the King came out ahead.

Over the years things altered especially with the arrival of Victoria's husband Albert who was an extremely capable and shrewd administrator and businessman. From being virtually penniless on her succession to the throne to the time of her death Victoria saw a complete reversal in the finances of the Royal family.

Were the monarchy to be abolished, the deal by which the Government of the day receives the income from the Crown Estates lapses. While Elizabeth is Queen of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, in her own right she is also Duke of Lancaster. While the title of Queen may be taken from her as the Head of State is replaced by a President, the title and revenues from the Duchy of Lancaster cannot. Same applies to Prince Charles with the title and revenues from the Duchy of Cornwall.

As for a potential smash and grab by the Government in order to disposess a private "citizen" of their property for the governments gain, they would find themselves at fault with the law of the land and perceived by all as a threat. The Government cannot be seen to rob its own citizens, who might know where it might end.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:37 AM

Well, yes, Lizzie I understand what you're saying. However, we're talking about a 'revolution' here and you have to start at the top. What is wrong with the Windsors is symptomatic of what is wrong with the country as a whole. Get rid of the monarchy and you start to get rid of the privilege, snobbery, class prejudice and corruption that is endemic within it.

Many of us do not avoid the real issue, nor are we apathetic. We seek real social change. This sort of root and branch change can only happen in a Republic.

I have to say that I am not as gloomy as you about the state of the country - what we need to get rid of is this new cult of the celebrity. Let's get rid of the top celebrities first - the Windsors.

May I correct a mistake in my previous post? "As Sir Michael Peat pointed out.." should read; "As was pointed out to Sir Michael Peat..."


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:59 AM

Goos post Lizzie


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 07:58 AM

Sorry, Teribus, I'm not wrong.

The Crown's legal status is that of corporation sole, an independent legal entity with the right to hold assets. To suggest that the Queen personally 'owns' and 'gives' the assets and revenues of this incorporated body is as ludicrous as suggesting that the Chairman of a public company personally 'owns' and 'gives' the assets and tax revenues of the incorprated body he or she represents.

So no 'smash and grab, there. Just the state taking back what it already owns. Perfectly legal and above board.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:03 AM

I wonder if today's leaders remember what happened to the great Il Duce Mussolini?

The scariest thing on earth is mob rule.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:08 AM

Teribus, for an explanation or corporation sole, see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:28 AM

This looked like being an interesting discussion. Shame it's been taken over by the fringe elements.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:30 AM

But we do have a fine history of iconoclasm and recalcitrance in this country (hence the reason the Royals get bashed - they are also a part of the Establishment), as well as a history of demonstration and campaigning against the ills inflicted on the ordinary folk of our Islands:

The Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Suffragettes, Winstanley and the The Diggers, The Levellers and Freeborn John, the poll tax riots, the miners strike, The Jarrow March, the People's March for Jobs years later, Greenham Common, CND, Chartism, Marx and Engels, The Luddites, a million people protesting against the Iraq war etc etc were all protesters and agents of social reform that were rebelling against the self-serving ruling classes of the Monarchy, Aristocracy, Church and State.

And these are just the English ones, we haven't even taken into account those who have rebelled against the oppression of the Crown since the year dot in the other countries we share our Islands and heritage with.

In my opinion the rise in consumerism has taken the edge off any displays of militancy that the population might display these days; as long as people are more interested in buying shit they don't need than the welfare of their fellow citizens then you can kiss goodbye to the revolution.

However . . . recession and hard time mean people can't afford to buy the shit the don't need and this can focus the mind. I look forward to the mob tearing down Cromwell's statue and throwing rotten veg at the one of Queen Victoria outside Buck Pal, then heading off to Westminster to hold those spineless lackeys of big business to account and make them finally realise they have to answer to the people and work in their interest and their interest alone.

I still think it could happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

Sorry that of course should have been "Good post Lizzie":

The Duchy of Lancaster:
The duchy is not the property of The Crown, but is instead the personal (inherited) property of the monarch and has been since 1399.

The Duchy of Cornwall:
There is a large body of evidence collated by the Attorney General to the Duchy of Cornwall in the 1858 Cornish Foreshore Case that showed Cornwall to be extra-territorial to England. For example on George III's accession on 25 October 1760 he surrendered 'Crown lands' held in England, Wales and Scotland to the state in return for an annual 'civil list' payment. The Duchy of Cornwall, i.e. Cornwall, was excluded from this legal arrangement, so today the Crown Estates has no jurisdiction in Cornwall.

High Sheriffs must by law swear an oath of allegiance to the sovereign, but the High Sheriff of Cornwall swears an oath of allegiance to the Duke. Nearly all laws passed for England and Wales today do not apply to the Duke or his territorial possession known as the Duchy of Cornwall and only two named individuals in the UK have Crown Immunity – the sovereign of the UK and the sovereign of Cornwall "in right of his Duchy of Cornwall".

Various laws, and the government's own legal department, state that the Duchy of Cornwall is co-terminus with the administrative area of Cornwall and to this day, the Queen is the owner of last resort of all land in England, Wales and Scotland, but not of Cornwall. These exemptions (which are applied on grounds that the Duchy is not part of England and Wales), reflect a constitutional situation that the Duke is able to protect by right to intervene in, and control the outcome of, any court case that might affect the Duchy's unique constitutional position.

Please note leveler:
"On George III's accession on 25 October 1760 he surrendered 'Crown lands' held in England, Wales and Scotland to the state in return for an annual 'civil list' payment."

If that ANNUAL 'civil list' payment is not paid to the King or Queen, because they have been replaced by a President, then the contract made on the 25th October 1760 is broken and Crown Lands revert to their rightful owners.

It would be a fascinating case, but one great thing about English Law, it is absolutely clear when it comes to property title and protection of property. My guess is the Queen or her descendants would win, worst case they'd come out of it with one hell of a settlement.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

I think there could be a revolution. Possibly like a lot of people - ever since I was a teenager I've always believed that there would be some major political and social upheaval within my lifetime. And IMO the system itself has been 'preparing' for its possible arrival too. Governments know how much of a tinder box a populace without it's regular little opiate fix can be. That's why we're getting watched so much, and having our rights to legitimately grumble/make a noise/gather increasingly criminalised. It's also the only real reason they keep trying to foist ID cards on us all IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:52 AM

Bread and circuses the Romans used. Still in use today.

Give the 'masses' their celebs, reality TV programmes and sport and keep 'em happy.

When I worked in an office I was an outsider because I wasn't interested in the major topics of discussion - what had been on TV the night before or the sports news. A good friend of ours said, only the other day, that the number of people that he knows who can converse about things that can't be seen or felt is growing smaller.

Maybe, with a tightening of the belts, more people will wake up to what is actually happening in the world.

Mind you, this is the sort of mess from which the likes of Hitler rose. Charismatics can quite often make the pendulum swing too far the other way. Who's going to be made the scapegoat for the ills of the modern world this time?


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:07 AM

"...Who's going to be made the scapegoat for the ills of the modern world this time?"


Ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:17 AM

"Mind you, this is the sort of mess from which the likes of Hitler rose. Charismatics can quite often make the pendulum swing too far the other way."

Aye, the big dangers of any revolution, are that the worst aspects of human nature lets loose. The major problem I see with the UK, is that it won't be a peoples revolution at all, it'll end up being a version of some kind of civil war. With major socio-political splitting between extremes of 'progressive' left wing anarcho-communist type movements (which would necessitate serious WORK and co-operation between those willing and enlightened enough to *take responsiblity* for reforging a workable alternative) on the one hand. And the hard right on the other... Nationalism and mass scapegoating of the most ugly and dangerous kind, could burgeon like a forest fire after a long hot summer IMO. But especially amongst those who will be throwing their toys out of their prams because they're not getting drip-fed their tranquilisers any more.

I can't justify my thoughts on this to be fair, it's simply the way it pans out in my imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:20 AM

"Please note leveler:
"On George III's accession on 25 October 1760 he surrendered 'Crown lands' held in England, Wales and Scotland to the state in return for an annual 'civil list' payment."

If that ANNUAL 'civil list' payment is not paid to the King or Queen, because they have been replaced by a President, then the contract made on the 25th October 1760 is broken and Crown Lands revert to their rightful owners."

Actually, it was Sir Michael Peart, Charles's private secretary's suggestion that the Windsors receive an income from the Crown Estates rather than the Civil List that prompted the response above, from royal legal experts. I did not suggest that the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall were part of the Crown Estates. This does not alter the basic and incontrovertible fact that the Crown Estates have awlays and still do belong to the state - so there is no question or their 'reverting' to the crown as they were never, in over 1000 years, the property of the crown.

Back to the relevance to my original post - let's not forget that the English Civil War and the establishment of the Commonwealth were the result of a dispute between the middle classes of the time and the monarchy. Inevitably, as Sugarfoot Jack intimates, the majority of 'ordinary' or landless people were betrayed by self-interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:37 AM

"they were never, in over 1000 years, the property of the crown."

Rather, the property of the monarch.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Too true Rosie, as can be seen only too clearly on this thread. Everyone's pet peeves come parading out with no real thought about what is really best for the country or how to make a real difference.

We haven't done so well with elected PMs or presidents recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

I probably should not comment, but I have to wonder, if you do away with the monarchy won't that have a negative effect on tourism? For my part, I see the Queen as a focal point who represents the UK, and if the government should take over Windsor castle, Hatfield House and Hampton Court, tears them all down for condominiums or sports stadiums I sure as hell won't spend a farthing to visit those places again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 05:07 AM

Kendall, the issue of tourism is another spurious one that's often cited as a reason for retaining the monarchy, but it has no relevance to fundamental issues of the British constitution.

However, here are the facts.

Firstly, why on earth would we want to tear down the royal residences (not the personal property of the Windsors) and turn them into condominiums (whatever they are)? We're not, generally, in the habit of demolishing our historic monuments – except, maybe, to build new airport runways. It would make much more economic sense to have them fully opened, all year round, to the public, who could then enjoy all the facilities and artefacts that are currently available only to the Windsors.

Secondly, there is no evidence that the royal family is a particular tourist attraction. Visit Britain, the government body responsible for tourism, does not even collate statistics on the monarchy as an attraction, so it is evidently not seen as a major factor. The only royal residence to make it onto the top 20 of tourist attractions is Windsor Castle, at 17 – well below, say, Legoland in Windsor, at 7. The City of York, near where I live, has no royal residences yet is the second-most popular tourist city in Britain.

Tourists come to Britain for a myriad of reasons but I don't think that a little old lady sat in her big house is a major one.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:16 AM

Well, I'm used to being in the minority but one of the major reasons I started going to the UK was the history of the monarchy. If I stopped going to places such as Windsor,the British treasury wouldn't even know it, but I still believe that if everyone who feels as I do should stop you would feel it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM

Just giving you the facts, Kendall. The history of the monarchy and the future of the monarchy are separate issues. Why would people stop going to Windsor etc. if the monarchy didn't exist? Just look at the Palace of Versailles, for instance, or even the Tower of London - no longer a royal residence but No.6 on the tourist attraction list.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:02 AM

I see no such evidence of any middle class revolt, only evidence of the middle class swallowing what's being force fed down their throats.
I see no signs of general strikes (here in the US or the UK), no signs of mass protest, no boycotts worth mentioning, no speackes at general or mass assembilies, no forming or arming of militia groups (excluding the home grown terrorists gangs). No mass student uprising (well maybe in France). Until the middle class gets off their comfortable duff & rally the poorer classes who've been in constent struggle just surviving they won't achive any gains, either in civil rights, human rights, property rights nor in the basic tools of subsistence & suvival never mind in the areas that should've been theirs to begin with. Like health care(in the US), education, the right for the poor & middle classes to compete in high government/politics, workers rights, etc.
When one sees 3rd world nations going out on general strikes & mass protests that bring down the highest in government offices & then one turns & looks at what they risk in doing that & we talk of revolt, it's nothing but a laughting matter.
Revolt! We can't even get up the public will to protest never mind us considering resistence & revolt is a far cry resistence.
Where are the leaders of the revolt when their aren't even any leaders in passive protest. When we have nothing to lose is when we will resist and by design that will never happen. A slave will revolt when there are no more options or hope left, we are not yet slaves but some of us are close enough to consider any options.

Call me when the revolution is televised!

I went through this in the 60's & it didn't happen then and there was a far better chance of it happening then there is of that happening now

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM

But Leveller who is paying for the upkeep and why if you opt for your "cheap-to-run" President.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:44 AM

The upkeep of what, exactly?

If you mean the royal palaces, who do you think funds the Tower of London, Hampton Court, Kensington Palace and Kew Palace, for example?


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 12:20 PM

Since the members of the monarchy have no political clout getting rid of them really isn't going to achieve much, by the time that we have to pay for the upkeep of whatever we put in their place.

We did actually dispose of the monarchy for a while back there but it didn't seem to change much. Countries without a monarchy don't seem to be doing any better than the UK right now so how that would be the magic bullet I can't really see.

To do any good we have to look at where the real power is - political and monetary. To my mind the obscene pay deals given to CEOs and the very comfortable salaries and pensions enjoyed by politicians and civil servants need to be addressed first off. We need to get money circulating more freely, being used for purposes that provide employment instead of being stuck away in high yield accounts by those at the top of the tree.


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM

I can imagine nothing sadder than England without her Monarch. We have a history that most countries drool over. We have palaces, castles, cathedrals, filled with Kings and Queens of England, whose history and stories are known throughout the world.

The pomp and circumstance is part of this country.   

I don't understand this attitude to the Royal Family. Yes, some of them are prattish, but you get that in nearly all families. Some of them are probably bloody good people, very kind and caring, again, as in all families.

The Queen has cut back on the Royal List, and she now pays for most of the Hangers On herself. She pays tax. She has people wandering round her palaces. She's dedicated her entire life to her country, with never a whiff of scandal, despite, I'm sure, at times being possibly very unhappy. Even today, her life isn't her own, people to meet, places to go, endless boring functions and pratty talking to pratty people, which must drive her absolutely insane.

She blundered hugely over Princess Diana, Diana's death, and her 'annus horriblis'..but she's lived her life in a very different world to the rest of us.

Take away our Royal Family, and what have you got?

President Blair? No bloody thanks.

The Royals have no power, and to be honest, if I were them, I'd tell this country to shove their heads up their backsides, then I'd b*gger off to the sun and live my life as *I* wanted to...but the Queen has never done that. Neither has Prince Charles, who works damned bloody hard at times, has dozens of charities on the go, has helped endless people set up their own businesses and get their own life, with his Princes Trust...William and Harry have their own charities too.

Yup, they're rich. Bloody annoying isn't it. But I'd rather have them as my figure heads, than controlling, obsessive politicians who are in it for nowt but power and recognition, or those bloody irritating plonkers, Posh & Becks! YUK!

My Dad wouldn't hear a word against the Queen, she was 'his' Queen, that generation who admired and respected the Royals. Life's changed a lot since then, but she's still doing OK.

I think I pay 68 pence a year in tax for the Royals, so we found out in the Prince Harry thread. I truly don't mind, why the hell would I begrude 68 pence a year, because I love all the history that surrounds them, and to be honest, I wish they had more freedom to speak what's in their minds, because Charles, I think, would surprise many people. He's already done a powerful lot for organic farming, championing it for many years BEFORE it became 'fashionable'

There's a host of links to the many GOOD things surrounding the Royals, in the Prince Harry thread, definitely worth looking at. (in the second half of that thread)
The 'Prince Harry' thread

Celebrity Big Brother folks, 1984 Orwellian Political Prats, or a line of Kings and Queens that go back centuries and are still here today?

I'll take the latter thanks, along with thanks to Her Maj for dedicating her life to her country, giving up the life she may have dreamed of.

And whilst we're about it, I miss the Queen Mum's smile.

So there. :0)


Oh, and if you haven't read the book by Sue Townsend, called 'The Queen and I' then you should, because it's so funny. The Royals are made to go and live on a council estate, when the politicians take over....and much fun ensues.

The best way to read this book is to let Miriam Margoyles read it to you in the Audio version, as she is absolutely FANTASTIC!!

The Queen and I - Audio Version

I have never heard a book so wonderfully read. Charles turns his front garden into an allotment, and ends up being arrested for starting a riot. Diana becomes the favourite of all the gals in the neighbourhood, Princess Anne looks after everyone, fixing this and that like a natural...And the Queen and her Mum, along with Philip, end up doing pretty OK, in a sherry filled bungalow kind of way.

The Politicians meanwhile, create absolute chaos and the country goes to the dogs, but hey, the Royals actually start to enjoy their lives at long last, rather than having to live in goldfish bowls where there every move is monitored, watched over and jealousy spat on..

Right, I'm off to practice my curtseying now.

As you were, Ma'am...

:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: DougR
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

Teribus: You are partly right regarding who is responsible for the crash. It was the U.S. government (principally the Democrats in Congress)over the last two years they have been in power who forced the banks to make loans to folks who couldn't afford the mortgages. Congressman Barney Frank and (if memory serves) the Senior Senator from Connecticut were primary culprits.

The folks are to blame, too, of course (those who took out mortgages they could not afford).

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 03:11 PM

Doug, that's ridulious. The dem's have not been in power for the past 2 yrs, the problem goes back a lot farther than that & no one forced the banks to make loans of any kind. No one twists a bank's arm, now or in the past to make a loan they didn't want to.

To blame this on the Democrates id akin to blaming Bush's War on thm too. How much will you'll hold the qwwrong folks responsible for Bush's Blunders?

Get real

Barry


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