BS: The middle classes are revolting

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Tangledwood
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:56 PM

"No one twists a bank's arm, now or in the past to make a loan they didn't want to."

And nobody forces a consumer to take a $600k mortgage when a $300k one would get them a home perfectly adequate for their needs. What's the bet this whole cycle will happen again. Interest rates, here at least, are at an all time low "to stimulate the economy". So the home buyer rushes out and grabs a mortgage at 5%. In a few years time rates go up to 10% and payments can't be met.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 05:29 PM

Tangle eye, hardly anyone is getting loans these days & so far the banks ain't bending a bit either. As far as anything aside from a fixed (rate) mortgage, I don't think many lenders will be offering them & probably not many buyers will be applying for them either. The day of the lenders "creative mortage" is past. They made a killing on them but in the process they also killed the goose.
Reguardless, banks will continue to loan as they will won't suffer any arm bending.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 07:12 PM

"The middle classes are revolting..."


                   Yes, they are kind of revolting, aren't they.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 07:46 PM

Doug, both Allan Greenspan and Pat Buchanan said on national TV that this mortgage mess is the fault of none other than George W. Bush. That's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:17 PM

kendall - I think if you looked into it, you would discover that the deregulation of banking started under Ronald Squirtgun--it's been dribbling along since that time, and Greenspan and Buchanan are only trying to cover their butts because they are the real guilty ones.
             Greenspan let the interest rates remain dangerously low for an extended period of time so the crash wouldn't come on his watch, and Buchanan is a constant apologist for Ronald Squirtgun.

             Clinton did little to help, though he probably did all he could considering he had Monica tied around his neck. But he helped the maniacs at ACORN and other such organizations prod Congress into pushing for banks to finance houses for people who obviously couldn't afford them. So as much as I liked Clinton, that part of the equation won't go away.

             I would agree, however, that George W. Bush made things worse, both by continuing with deregulation policies, and not doing anything to check the ACORN type groups.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:28 AM

Hey, Lizzie, you're entitled to your opinion and it's one that a lot of people share. Personally, I believe in democracy and that includes an elected head of state. I think that hereditary privilege has no place in a modern society. I think that getting rid of the monarchy and the peerage would prove an inspiration to people in this country and engender a new self-respect - it may even give politicians a kick up the arse.

You say "Prince Charles, who works damned bloody hard at times". How do you know? Does he have a job description? Is his performance monitored? I can tell you something, the majority of people in this country (given the chance) work a damn sight harder and for a great deal less reward. Here's a quote from Charles' former press officer, Mark Bolland, quoted on Janet Street Porter's BBC prog. in 2005: "the Windsor's are very good at working three days a week, five months of a year, and making it look as though they work hard".

Nice work, if you can get it!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:29 AM

"We did actually dispose of the monarchy for a while back there but it didn't seem to change much."

Mainly because the King was replaced with a murderous religious fanatic who sought to oppress anyone who stood in his way.

I agree about where the real power is, and our elected leaders need to sort that out (I've been writing to my charlatan of an MP - hope everyone else has!), but it's up to us to hold them accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:23 AM

One of seven videos:


This one is perhaps the most poignant for this thread:
The Royal Family at Work.....youtube

As I said, their lives are not their own. Would I want a life where I had engagements all day long, then dinners in the evening, and all the time I'm on show, on show, on show....never being able to relax, never being able to relax, let my hair down, say what I want to say.....

There's a great deal I may not agree with, but I'd not swop their lives with mine, despite the wealth.

All offspring of wealthy people usually have 'inherited wealth' I'm sure Posh and Becks will leave their children a vast amount of money, and they in their turn will be lorded as 'celebrities'

At least the Royals do some good and constantly support charities trying to do what they can to balance out things...

Let's face it, the Queen as four children, and three of those four were divorced and went through their own troubles, some of their children are facing their own troubles too.

Would our polliticians knock themselves sideways and be part of over 200 charities, as Princess Anne is? I doubt it.....

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:48 AM

"Mainly because the King was replaced with a murderous religious fanatic who sought to oppress anyone who stood in his way."

Exactly.


What is truly to blame in all of this, is dumbing down. It started with the Corporates creating an 'I MUST HAVE!" society. They did this by taking apart what makes us tick, dissecting every emotion, every fear that humans have, then saturating the species with adverts and images of what you truly need to have a REAL 'life'....

Then, when those images had been burnt into the souls of so many, it set about making The Conveyer Belt of Life, upon which all had to jump (some of course didn't, and don't, and never will)

The Conveyer Belt consists of this:

Birth

Playgroups (pre-school learning alliances I think they call e'm now)

Childminders, whilst parents return to work to pay for bills and all the things which are *essential* for the REAL life.

School
More School (school's important, because it churns out consumers)
Yet more School.

School Prom (vast amounts spent for that)

Gap Year (almost compulsory now)

University
Big Debts
Low Paid Jobs many of which require totally different exams to your Uni ones...
Alcohol...to numb the confusion, bewilderment and depression...
Marriage or partnership
Huge Wedding costing **thousands** otherwise, it you don't love the person concerned, or your children, depending on who's paying for the wedding..
Babies...which you've already decided you won't raise yourself..
More playgroups (this time as from a parent's point of view)
Childminders (so you can return to work as fast as possible to get more money to pay bills or to have the REAL life)
School for your kids
More school
Yet more school
Gap Year
University
Even bigger debts than parents had
Far more alcohol needed to numb pain
Depressed parents
Parents who are talked into remortgaging their house so their kids can have one, otherwise, they don't love their kids....
No pension, what a surprise, it got 'eaten' by someone....
Short gap between pension and death where you say "What the FOOK was that all about?" as realisation takes hold that you were conned...

Death

Sweet release...

Until you er...get born again...when hopefully, you come into the world with your eyes wide open and yell..."Fook off! You had me last time round!"

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:55 AM

Darn it, it posted before I was ready, apologies for mistakes and uneven everything.


Anyway, the solution to all this, as I see it, is to create a desire and a LOVE of learning. It's to go against the tide of wanting to be a Prole, and realise that you are an Individual, one who came into this world with a whole lifetime ahead of you, which belongs to YOU, not some clever, greedy, unfeeling, uncaring so and so, who sits in his Corporate office, counting the money you've given him in the hope that your REAL life will come true.

As long as we continue to dumb down, and accept that as acceptable, then we ain't going anywhere.

As long as we choose to let others rule our lives, rather than rule our own, we will never change this current pattern.

We HAVE to change it though, somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:58 AM

You left out just how expensive funerals can be (a href="http://www.whatprice.co.uk/health/funeral-cost.html">see here), and surely you must have the best casket (etc) for your loved one ...

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:26 AM

Oh dear, Lizzie. What a depressing outlook on life you have. Thankfully, for most people, it isn't like that at all. Some of us do manage to bring up our children with a sense of proportion, responsibility, respect for others and realistic expectations. Seeing a bunch of irresponsible, disfunctional yobs who claim to be our 'betters' doesn't help. Do you really think the royals set a good example with their racist comments, lack of respect for other people and louche. overprivileged lifestyle? I think not.

A republic symbolises a society where personal achievement and self-respect is more important than inherited privilege and artificial social status.

It can't come too soon for me and I will work to bring it about.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:28 AM

"Exactly."

Well, only in that particular case. I'm all in favour of doing away with the monarchy and I certainly wouldn't swear allegiance to them; the institution of the monarchy is an anachronism and it's time the people of these Islands were free of the lot of them.

Next time we get rid of the monarchy I would rather hope it could be done properly. The can call themselves King, Queen or whatever but no elected representative of the people should ever have to ask their permission to dissolve or form a government.

Long live the Republic!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:14 AM

No, Leveller...I jumped off the Conveyer Belt, but I'm talking about the many who are on it. I've ceased to stop looking around me and refusing to see what's happening. I'm older than you, so I guess I remember a different time, when there was far more desire to be seen as intelligent, rather than thick, when kids weren't falling over sideways in our city centres most nights, or starting their social life at 11pm of an evening.

A friend of mine lives not far out of Basingstoke, in a tiny village. Her daughter wanted to be part of it all, and was desperate to go into town each weekend, some weekdays too. Some of the clubs in town ran a minibus service out to the villages, so the kids could get in to them. They'd pick them up at 11pm and bring them home around 4am. Her mother thought this was wonderful, I found it deeply disturbing...deeply.

Many people nowadays simply live their lives as they are told to live them, they cannot think for themselves, and if you've read Orwell's '1984' then you'll see the alarming similarities, almost a blueprint for so much of today's society.

If you create a population which no longer thinks, then you've almost won, except, those darned Individuals keep cropping up and putting their heads above the parapet, so you squeeze them tighter and tighter...

I could tell you stories that would set you reeling about what has happened to the children of some of my friends...and the bewilderment that it causes their parents.

Sorry, I'm not with the 'racist' comments and the 'Prince Harry story' as can be seen in the thread to which I put a link in earlier on. Harry called his friend by a nickname that he and others used, and it was one which the man concerned was totally happy about, as he stated when he stuck up for Harry and assured people that his friend was in no way racist. Sadly, Prince Harry has been set up by the News of the World, again as discussed in the other thread.

I see Harry's behaviour in general, his drinking etc...as no different from any other young person who is also deeply troubled these days. It has touched all kids, from all sections of society, it matters not if you go to an inner ciy comprehensive, or one of the most famous public schools in the country.

UNICEF have stated we have the most unhappy kids in the world over here in the UK. The teachers themselves have recognised it too and spoken out about it at their Torquay conference. The politicians refuse to acknowledge it though, utterly refuse.

They also refuse to do much about the alochol problem, when we all know they could do a very great deal.

Ask yourself why?

Ask yourself why any government would prefer its population to be drunk as skunks most of the time, stressed out with paying bills, making ends meet, trying to afford a house, find a job etc..

You may not like the answers, but the answers are there....

And meanwhile, those in power, keep on getting wealthier, more controlling and more calculating, whilst their 'people' drink and eat themselves into oblivion.

Still, at least they do what they're told and they don't argue.

Personally, I'd rather have Prince Charles in charge than most of the politicans around, because at least he cares about this country and the world in general and he's not afraid to speak out.

One of nine videos about Prince Charles...well worth watching, because you'll see a very different person to the one the press always wants you to see.

The Passionate Prince - One of the Most Relentless Campaigners in Modern Britain

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:55 AM

OK, so here, in case anyone's interested, are the whole 9 videos about Prince Charles and all that he does. Personally, I'd imagine that he's cheering about the fact that people are starting to open their eyes at long last.


'The Passionate Prince'

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7

Part 8

Part 9

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:07 AM

Actually, Lizzie, I think you'll find that I'm older than you – I hit the big 6-0 this year.

I certainly don't have rose-tinted specs. I'm facing redundancy for the third time in 10 years and I've had to move around the country and work abroad in order to earn a living in the past - and I've been married – well, let's just say, more than once.

I think it's an easy option to blame the behaviour of our children on 'society', the education system or some mysterious Big Brother who is controlling our lives. The buck stops firmly with parents. By the time children go to school, attitudes have become firmly instilled and it's teachers who, all too often, have to pick up the pieces.

I have 4 children - all thinking individuals with minds of their own. My eldest son is a police officer and has two children of his own; my eldest daughter has suffered from ME for over 10 years but, thanks to help from her school (the local comp.) managed to get 8 GCSEs despite missing almost two years of her education and, although she can't work full-time, has a job as an assistant manager in a coffee shop; my 18-year old son is doing his A Levels, and my 9-year old daughter is at the local junior school, which she loves, and is on the Gifted and Talented Register in literacy and art.

To be honest, my 18-year old son behaves in much the same way I did at his age. He gets drunk, stays out all night and plays with a rock band (I did folk). On the other hand, he is doing OK at his A Levels without too much pressure from us, has been offered a place at uni. to study History and Politics and pays his way with a part-time job.

So, this doesn't really fit in with your scenario, but it isn't untypical, in my experience.

Yes, I have read 1984 – just finished re-reading it as it's one of my lad's set books for A Level English – and I see little comparison with Britain today, though plenty, of course, with pre-war Germany and post-war USSR.

The antics of the Windsors have no relevance to my life or those of my kids. They are, in the same way you suggest alcohol is, 'the opiate of the people' – just more fodder for the vicarious who prefer to live their lives through others, rather than, as the parrots in Aldous Huxley's Island insisted, "Here and now, boys. Here and now."

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:32 AM

Mainly because the King was replaced with a murderous religious fanatic who sought to oppress anyone who stood in his way.

And you don't get that nowadays? They have just got rid of one in the USA.

A republic symbolises a society where personal achievement and self-respect is more important than inherited privilege and artificial social status.

Come live in the USA for a while. This is the republic that you are talking about. I love my adopted country but I can see its faults and one of them is the rise of the priviledged classes. If you have money here life is great, but if you are poor it is very difficult to get out of the poverty trap, or allow your kids to make it.

There are families here who have to remortgage their houses in order to pay their medical bills or to get their kids through college, with the hope of a better life once they graduate. There are many who will never have that chance, unless they have a special talent for sport or are inordinately bright - otherwise forget it.

Conversely, you have the likes of Paris Hilton - a member of a wealthy family, famous for having inherited wealth, and the myriad film and sports stars whose every word and action is treated as the pearls that are cast before swine. Trust me, artificial status is alive and well and living in this republic.

Even communism didn't make a difference - there were still the haves and have nots, with wealth and priviledge going to those who ran the country and hardship for many of their countrymen.

Human nature being what it is there will always be those who will claw their way to the top, regardless of the harm they do on the way up. There will always be those who want more, even if it is at the expense of others.

I really don't care one way or the other about the monarchy. However, IMO, thinking that getting rid of them would be the panacea that would bring the sun back in the sky is extremely naive. I doubt that there is a real solution to the human condition, but I would like to see people in general looking at the issues and not the colour of the party rosette next time they go to vote.

And talking of voting - now I'm really going to upset some people. Maybe we should instigate a test on the constitution that must be passed before we gave the priviledge of the vote to anybody. Let's have classes in school on what it means to be a citizen of the country and the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. Give kids a sense of pride in their nationality and to let them know that it is their responsibility to make their own future, rather than sit back and say "Why don't THEY do something about it". Maybe, as parents, that is what we should all be doing. Not just inculcating our children with our own political views, but giving them the opportunity to look at the whole political spectrum and work out for themselves what path they wish to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:38 AM

This is supposed to be a republic. Ok, let's look at the record.
George Washington was one of the richest men in the colonies.All of the founding fathers were quite well off. They decided how things were to be. You had to be a land owner to vote.

Moving along, our senate is full of wealthy people.
The Roosevelts, the Bush's all through our history the rich have screwed the poor and when a man of modest means gets to be president even the lower middle classes yell "Socialist". Even the poor have been brainwashed into thinking that socialism is bad for them.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

No way would I ever advocate looking to the US as a model for a republic!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM

When I was in school we had subjects such as Civics. Do they teach that anymore? Do they teach anything anymore?

We like to think this is a democracy. It is not. It is a representative democracy. That means that the representatives get to decide what is good for the rest of us.Do you think the rich are going to vote for term limits? or fair taxes for all? Congress is full of lawyers; do you think they are going to vote to close loopholes that they will one day be able to use to their own advantage? Dream on.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:17 AM

OK leveller - what country would you use as a model? There is always a lot of difference between theory and practice where the human condition is concerned.

Wherever you go there will be greedy people willing to do anything to fulfill their own desires.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:09 AM

Kendall, we are talking about an adjustment to our existing system - not throwing the baby out with the royal bath water. It would mean having an elected head of state instead of a monarch and replacing the House of Lords with an elected body - something that has been discussed for many a year (we currently have a very unsatisfactory halfway house). Oh - and, hopefully, proportional representation.

I reckon that's enough to be going on with - until the revolution :0

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:35 AM

You're older than me, you take care of your children, so do I. Mine too are doing pretty OK, although my daughter gets befuddled when no-one seems to want to talk much about anything remotely interesting, just booze and who they were with last night.

Sorry, UNICEF don't make claims that aren't true. Teachers don't finally all come together to say that something is desperately wrong, unless it really is.

Yes, there are good schools, there are good kids, of course there are, you and I both know that, but I'm talking about the majority here, and I *know* from experience that many kids are struggling deeply.

Hell, I'm not talking about ****** exams. I'm talking about their souls. I'm talking about where they go in their heads.

Most kids these days have GCSE passes. It means little. Most kids also now have Uni degrees, but again, for many, it means little, they don't truly understand what the heck they're studying, they just limp through it, because it's on the Conveyer Belt, and 'the system' has been changed to ensure that the majority now get a degree, pass rates lowered, excuses given, etc...until a Uni Degree carries no weight at all, 'cos hey, EVERYONE has one. University used to be for the best minds. It used to be the place where those who truly wanted to specialise, study and learn far more, went. Now, it's just another stop on the road of Corporate Life. It's 'what you do'

I would LOVE to know how many people have become mega wealthy from all the exams. I bet you there are a few politicians amongst them, and many in the Corporate Education System, of course.

You're nearly 60, so you'd also remember a time when WH Smith didn't have wall to wall books on getting your children through every exam under the sun. You'll remember a time when exams weren't the be all and end all of your life, and you weren't made to feel that without them you were NOTHING. You remember a time when parents were terrified of their kids not having exams, and didn't put more and more pressure on them to achieve, as do the schools who want to gain the pass rates. You'll remember a time when you could start at the bottom of a job with nothing, and work your way up, without having to have the 'correct' qualifications to start with. You'll remember a time when society cared more, had more women at home, creating their own society, caring for their own children, ensuring that the children of others were cared for too.

Two salaries means twice as much for Corporate businesses to benefit from so you bet they're going to create a society where women are encouraged to work, hell, let other women bring those kids up, preferably in state controlled institutions.

If you can't see the similarity between 1984 and today's society, Leveller, then you must have the book upside down. Alistair Campbell, I'm sure, could give you every word of it without even having to open a page.

The Royals are insignificant in all this, other than also having kids who also wanna be wannabees, and who are touched in the same way that everyone else.

Never has there been a time of people being so dumb and revelling in it! Once we had Great Britain, now...we have Little Britain...and people laugh. I don't get it. Sorry. I'm not proud of what I see in my country, it makes me cringe and it worries me deeply.

I watched the most horrifying programme the other day, purely because I couldn't believe it! It was Paris Hilton, who jacqui speaks of above...in a programme where she was trying to find 'A British Best Friend'

Sweet Holy Porcupines!!!!!!!! I almost decided that the planet should implode, there and then, be far better for us all... ;0)

I have NEVER seen such a disturbing programme! All these idiotic Posh Spice lookalikes fawning over her, worshipping her! The vacuousness almost lit up the room!   

Who the ***** put that on TV? Who the **** MADE it!!!???? And HOW did we get from Leonardo da Vinci, to Paris Hilton????????????????

NO, it has NOT always been like this.   I've heard that argument so many times, from people who are too bloody scared to open their eyes.
Look beyond your own family, look into the cities, go into your local town late at night....Read how the ambulance service can no longer cope with picking up the drunks every night, read how the hospitals can't cope, watch the videos of the police going out, keeping the peace, picking the casualities off the floors of our cities...

Then thank God that your kids ARE safe, because there are so very many who aren't.

Cool Britannia.
Binge Drinking Britain

People drink...to numb the pain.

Cure the pain, and you cure the drinking.

People once used to think, now they're encouraged not to.

Cure the dumbness....and you cure the country!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM

"You remember a time when parents were terrified of their kids not having exams"

Sorry, that should have read, "...a time when parents were *not* terrified....."

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Well Lizzie, we can agree about Paris Hilton – and the same goes for the myriad of other so-called celebrities who inhabit that strange twilight world of Hello magazine. The phrase 'get a life' was never more apt, both for them and the people who follow their inane antics.

As to the drinking culture – well, I wonder if it hasn't always been that way, to some extent. Over 100 years ago A E Housman wrote, in 'A Shropshire Lad':

Oh many a peer of England brews
Livelier liquor than the Muse,
And malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
Ale, man, ale's the stuff to drink
For fellows whom it hurts to think:
Look into the pewter pot
To see the world as the world's not.
And faith, 'tis pleasant till 'tis past:
The mischief is that 'twill not last.
Oh I have been to Ludlow fair
And left my necktie God knows where,
And carried half way home, or near,
Pints and quarts of Ludlow beer:
Then the world seemed none so bad,
And I myself a sterling lad;
And down in lovely muck I've lain,
Happy till I woke again.


It has an uncannily familiar ring.... now where did I leave my tie (oh that's right, I don't own one!)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

Of course I'm not qualified to say what sort of government you should have in the UK. Maybe it's my ingrained resistance to change. I'm a history buff, and you have so much that I find fascinating.The monarchy is part of that fascination.I'm just a bumpkin colonial; what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:18 PM

"As to the drinking culture – well, I wonder if it hasn't always been that way, to some extent. Over 100 years ago A E Housman wrote, in 'A Shropshire Lad':"


Nooooooooooo.....

Look...(methinks you is tryin' to wind me up! - lol).....LOOK! Men have always loved beer, I accept that, and they've had drunken nights and a few brawls, but NEVER have we had what is happening now...

Hell, women are having sex with men on city streets and they can't even remember!!!

Yeah, go on...."But, Lizzie, that's always happened" NO...IT...HASN'T!

Did you *watch* the video, Leveller?

There's one helluva difference between the Shropshire lad and the WHOLE of Shropshire falling over, in unison, before having it off with complete strangers on their way to casualty in the back of a police van!

Ye Gods And Drunken Fishes!

We are on our way to having an entire generation who'll be alcoholics shortly. Already diabetes is rocketing, and hey, do you know how much sugar there is in alcohol???? ("Yes", say Kendall, sadly) :0)
We're beginning to have the liver problems starting up too, bit by bit it's starting to bleed the NHS dry...let alone damage young people terribly.

The Corporate Alcohol B*stards are making an absolute FORTUNE! Did you listen to the bit about Nottingham? Did you hear how there are now pubs that take 1,500 people at a go? Did you know there are over 400, yes FOUR HUNDRED, pubs and clubs in Nottingham? Did you know they've taken over cinemas, churches, ANY big buildings where they can cram in young people, sell them cheap booze to start with, then sell 'em more at bigger prices, when they're so numbed they don't realise? Have you heard how the taxi drivers have the young women throwing up in the cabs all the time...

GEEZ! We are living in Alocholic Alice in Wonderland, except that where Alice drowned in a pool of tears, our young people are drowing in a pool of vodka!

The Corporate Alcohol B*stards start them off early, with their Alcopops...luring them in with fruit and alcohol..and before you know it, Bob's Yer Bottle, they're hooked!

The greedy supermarkets and corner shops dedicate vast swathes of their shops to it all, because they make such a huge profit...and hell, that's what life's about on the Conveyer Belt, profit, profit, profit..

There are times when I think I need to tie myself to Nelson's Column, if you'll pardon the expression, and scweam and scweam until I'm sick, in the vain hope that someone..*someone* will listen! Who knows, Prince Charles might just hear me up at Old Buck House, and come charging down on his white charger to rescue everyone...

Oh, Lawdy, I just get so exasperated by it all.

Teenage drinking, report and video, from The Guardian Jan 2009

The Cold Heart of England - Show of Hands

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

Countries, like all living things, carry the seeds of their own destruction. Nothing can ever last forever. When we can blame the rum seller for our own weakness that is what's saddest of all.
No one is responsible for their own crap anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:21 AM

I have to agree with Kendall, here. Lizzie, much as I'd like to entertain the idea of some great corporate or government conspiracy to keep us all pissed (where do I get my drinking vouchers?), I think, as the Guardian article you link to says, that it's back down to parental and personal responsibility. However, the social conditions that so many people have to live in, on sink estates, destitute, hopeless and despised, makes it pretty hard for them to bring up children with the kind of self-respect we'd like them to have.

I'm not unsypathetic to your view (don't forget, my eldest son is a copper and has to deal with the effects of alcohol abuse on a daily basis - even more dangerous as he's a firearms officer and the people he faces often have guns), I just think that you're over-egging the puidding a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:31 AM

"I'm just a bumpkin colonial; what do I know?"

Well, at least your forefathers had the presence of mind to fight a war of independence and establish a republic . . . I'm not suggesting a war (far too many of those already), but bring on the republic!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:22 AM

Leveller, I fully agree about parental and individual responsibility, but where is it?   That's the whole point.

We already have a generationn who don't know how to be parents. We have people terrified about disciplining their children, in case they get reported or frowned at, so they back down from having a showdown in public and let little junior get away with it.

If you recall, in '1984' the parents were terrified of their kids, who'd report them to the authorities at the drop of a hat...Hmmmmmmm...

I was shocked when my daughter went to Tavistock College for her first ever school day there, and came home with writing books, which all had, on the back page, a long list of agencies and telephone numbers that children could call, if they were in trouble. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for children having somewhere to turn to, but hell, if we give the impression to kids that all adults are out to hurt them, or that they will one day be in need of those numbers, almost as a certainty, then we're not creating a very good impression, are we? I don't know, but it seems to me that Big Brother has reached into our schools and our children's lives as never before.

Already, every single child born in this country is instantly put on an 'at risk' register, which teachers, police, doctors, social workers can access, but parents can't. Everyone is now viewed with suspicion. My son will have a flag by his name, which means he's 'at risk' because he's home-educated. Most people don't even know this list exists, or that it stays with their kids, and with them, until the child is 18. I only know, because the home-education folks keep a sharp eye on all things to do with children...

I'm not blaming alcohol for it *all* but I DO blame the Corporate industries that surround it for playing a huge part in it. Young people are absolutely saturated by that industry in a way we never, EVER were. You *surely* cannot ignore that fact. If you looked at that video, you'll see the police themselves saying it.

But what worries me most is WHY so many young people want to drown their lives out in the way that's happening at present..and the more you refuse to recognise what's happening, the deeper the problem is going to become. No-one is looking deeper!

Parental responsibility was 'interfered' with by The State.

We also now live in a world where to be bitchy and thick, to put down with sarcasm is far more popular than being kind, compassionate and intelligent. We need to somehow swap the majority behaviour for the minority...

And you're obviously happy with what's happening on our city streets, choosing to believe it's no different from what's always happened. I'm not. It's a totally alien way of life to me, and to others that I know, who are equally as worried.

If you choose to ignore what the ambulance services are saying, if you choose to ignore what the doctors are saying, the police, many who are concerned with children and young people, well, so be it...I guess it's easier to be an ostrich.

Responsibility comes from the Individual.

Absolutely.

Trouble is, The State has now removed the Individual.....

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 06:45 AM

Oh dear, I think this thread has crept a long way from my original post!

Lizzie, you bemoan the ills of society yet, on your own admission, you have opted out. Perhaps, instead of sitting on the sidelines constantly telling us how terrible things are, and how terrible we are, you should be doing something about it. For instance, you say that you have educated your son at home. OK, that's your right but, personally, this and all forms of private education are things I am very much against. I believe that it creates bastions of private privilege (or even deprivation) and children who are not aware of their social responsibilities and are unable to interact effectively with others (just look at the 'royals').

Given mrsleveller's qualifications, it would have been easy to educate our kids at home but we were adamant that they would be missing out on so much if we did (swimming clubs, music lessons, team sports, school trips and a wide and diverse circle of friends), so it was never an option. Instead, we get involved with the schools and cultivate a good relationship with heads and teachers, even arguing with them when we think there's a problem.

Child protection measures are there for just that reason. It does not give children the impression that everyone is out to hurt them, it's over-reacting parents who do that. It simply assures children that, if they do come up against abuse, there is something they can do about it. You think that's a bad thing?

As I may have mentioned before, mrsleveller works for the Workers' Education Association, organising and running free courses in local schools and communities, usually in some of the most deprived areas of Yorkshire. Some of the most valuable and popular are Helping In Schools, which trains classroom assistants, and Practical Parent Helpers, which tells parents how to get actively involved in their children's education. Parents (usually mothers) find in incredibly empowering to realise that they can make a difference instead of being dismissed by those of us in society who are more privileged as wasters and degenerates. Some have even gone further and trained to be teachers themselves. The key is 'education'; tell people what they can do and how to do it and you'll be amazed at the results.

My point is: if you're not prepared to be part of society, don't tell those of us who are how we should behave. It's hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:05 AM

Reminds me of "Carry on, don't lose your Head."

"Citizen Sir! The peasants are revolting!"

"Sniff. You aren't so fresh yourself..."

I used to have a job, car, holidays abroad etc. I was classed as working class.

I now have a job, car, holidays abroad etc. I seem to be classed as middle class.

Whom do I sue?

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:44 AM

Hang on a minute, Levells...I *am* a part of society. :0) Good Gawd...if you met my kids, you'd be over the moon! And hey, surprise, surprise, they did swimming, badminton, basketball, cycling, holidays..They're also happy talking to anyone, of any age, from any background.

I can assure you that they've not been 'priviledged' in any way at all, as believe me, you are completely 'on your own' when you home-educate, there is no help whatsoever.

My kids left school because of vicious bullying that was NOT dealt with, time and again, and because of the insane pressure that is now put on our kids in order for schools to meet targets. At 7 my son was already being publicly humiliated by his teacher for his spelling. He has dyslexia, it runs through my family. She was aware. She just didn't give a ****.

Gee Wizz! I get insanely angry about the view non Home Ed people have of those who choose a different route. I had NO choice with my daughter, she imploded at 15, wanted to give up on life, and to be perfectly honest, at that moment I though "B*gger it ALL! B*gger this 'thing' called school which has driven my daughter to this state!" I sent in a warm, happy, talented, kind, quiet and sensitive child, and out of it came a distressed, unhappy, depressed and bewildered young person. It took me bloody years to get her back, but darn it, she made it!   

You have been very lucky with your kids. Get down on your knees and thank heavens for it, because there are very, very many who are suffering...and again, I refer you BACK to the teachers themselves who have stood up and said that something terribly wrong is going on and that many kids are now showing signs of mental problems, their words. Look it up...read about it...The Torquay Conference from last year.

My kids will 'socialise' with anyone. They're still kind, compassionate and quiet though, as it's their nature. I recall one conversation with a screeching teacher, who told me my daughter was very 'sensitive'..."Yes" I said, "She is, and that's why she couldn't take your lesson on how animals are killed around the world, complete with gory videos!" She was 13 at the time. It was an English class, the subject for 'discussion' was vegetarianism..so they showed the most gruesome film. My daughter got upset, her teacher couldn't understand it, but then, I'd seen this woman many a time, screaming her head off at kids. So, school is about de-sensitising children?

Okkkkkkkk!

No, sorry, but I've had experience of the other kinds of schools..where much is going so very wrong. Tavistock College, where the teachers all have walkie talkies, where the drug addicts roam outside the gates, where the school is so VAST that teachers don't know who the kids even are half the time. Many of our schools are nothing more than Factory Farms. I now have Free Range kids...Get over it. :0)

There are many ways to make kids happy. School for some, is absolutely wonderful and they love every moment of it. For others, it is years and years of absolute hell. You cannot fit all children into one way of growing up, they are all Individuals and 'The System' does NOT allow for Individuals. You cannot insist that everyone is educated in the same way or learns the same things, it's total madness!   The poet is not the mathematician, the artist is not the scientist..and this controlling National Curriculum is doing terrible damage, as is the blinkered view of so many people who cannot move on and see another way...see that the children themselves are often so deeply distressed.

School is a bad system that is left over from the Victorian Era, it's no longer working in many places around the country, around the world. Even the teachers themselves are **finally** beginning to realise that.

And home education is not an easy opt out. It's bloody hard..but sometimes, there is no choice. Now though, having lived through years of it, I'd never have sent my kids to school, given a choice early on.   

I think it's the weirdest system going, totally inhumane and non-workable.

The streets of our cities are telling that truth...

Your go, Levells.. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

Hmmmmm...
For some reason our Public Broadcasting System has been screening a series called "Monarchy" or somesuch day-in-the-life of HRM Elizabeth II, and my impression is she and her relatives furnish a lot of employment to you lot.

Now remember, if it weren't for Elizabeth the First, you'd all be speaking Spanish by now, and we might have solved that pesky border problem down Texas way already. I'm sure THE SECOND is saving us from speaking some sort of nonsense so I am disappointed at all the whining in this thread.

I expect your base ingratitude should be recorded by the authorities, surely if you adopt the levelling approach of "Eat The Rich" you'd sell off some prime real estate, turn it into low-rents, take all take that lovely lolly and blow it all on chips and savalloys.

I'm so glad that American Public Broadcasting was around to open my eyes!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:35 AM

I got bullied in grade school by half a dozen older punks, but by the time I reached puberty and put on 50 pounds the bullying stopped.One well placed right to the jaw seemed to get the message across.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Stu
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:08 PM

"I am disappointed at all the whining in this thread"

You're not paying for them - feel free to chip in with a quid or so anytime!

Come to think of it, you could always re-instate them as your own Monarchy, then you'll have to put up with Chaz bleating on about things he holds deeply conservative and slightly unimaginative views about, such as modern architecture and urban planning. In fact he's even built his own village, Poundbury, which whilst it does have some good ideas to challenge the vacuous nature of modern planning practice it also looks like a cross between a new estate complete with tasteless twee neo-classical architectural elements, some Stepford Wivesesque idealised chocolate box version of an English village and something Thomas Kinkade puked onto canvas in one of his bogglingly awful paintings.

Shame he doesn't stick to farming and stuff. We couldn't afford his expensive organic wares up here up north (and we have lots of our own anyway), and it is mainly or tourists but his Duchy Ale is actually rather good.

Come the revolution, when we've sent Betty and the others down the dole office to sign on we could take over the brewery and make Republic Ale! Woo-ho!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:26 PM

You don't have to revolt, just come over to our side of the pond and be our latest illegal immigrants!

FULL CIRCLE!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

Lizzie, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience of the education system but, frankly, to condemn the whole of the system on the basis of that is fatuous. All I'll say is that it has come a long, long way since I was at school. Children are no longer physically abused as we were by barely trained teachers, prefects and anyone else given the authority to keep discipline, and there is much more flexibility in the system now, with children, once they have the basic grounding provided by the National Curriculum, able to choose what they study. My son was allowed to change a couple of his A level subjects after a term when he found they didn't suit him. In contrast, when I was doing mine I was not allowed to take maths (deemed a science subject) as I was taking history and Engish (arts subjects).

BTW I would take you to task when you say that mathematicians are not poets. I think that maths is often pure poetry and it's no surprise that so many philosophers are mathematicians.

Anyway, I hope your kids have a wonderful life and dsicover all the magic that it holds.

Off to see Reg Meuross and Hank Wangford in a little while. Yeeeha!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:29 AM

Levells, I hope you enjoyed Reg and Hank.

I did mention backalong, that for some kids, school is the best thing to happen to them and they love it. That's not total condemnation. I was merely saying that school is NOT right for ALL children, and for some, many that I know, it's become it's own kind of hell.

I stand corrected though, because math and music, poetry too do go together, all have a structure and rhythm I guess. But there are those who want cold hard facts and those who love to dream.....

Oh..and Chris Woodhead finally stood up yesterday and talked on the BBC about how so many University degrees are utter crap and bring no job at the end, just a huge pile of debt for young people to start their lives with. They had a few people from the Uni Exam system there too, who kind of squirmed and wouldn't admit to the hardline questions being fired at them, that they've conned thousands of young people into believing that all these new subjects will get you jobs....

Another reason for the Rebellion to start methinks, led by thousands of young people who are £10/20,000 in debt and working in Tescos.

Yeesh! Corporate Education at it's worst. The whole system is rotten all the way through, becausegreed and opportunity' has seeped into every crevice of our society. There is no honour anymore. Heck if you're 'found out' you just carry on taking your fat pension and smirk at everyone...

Once upon a time.................

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:08 PM

Yeah, I'll go along with that. I keep waiting for the revolution to start....my philosophy is that, whatever happens, ths sun will still rise and I'd [pretty much rather watch a sunrise than anything els... AND IT'S FREE!

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:11 PM

Damn, pressed the wrong key. Hank and Reg were great - had a nice chat with Reg - what a great bloke.

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:15 AM

Methinks, in Ireland, the Revolution/Rebellion or something part way inbetween, maybe a Revebellion, is about to start pretty soon...

Local people are off to Stormont today to talk to politicians, who have, perhaps wisely, invited them there to hear their worries, listen to what they say...and I'd imagine see if any of *them* can come up with the solutions, because, let's face, we all know the politicians don't know what the shite is going on!

The BBC took you to a local town, not far away, nestled amongst the Irish hills. There was Woolworths, boarded up and empty, same as in Sidmouth, Marks & Spencers Food Store about to close in a few days, same as in Honiton (5th March), and a whole host of other shops, now standing empty...the very heart of the town, gone. It panned into the local paper, just half a page of jobs now, not enough going for a whole one...

Meanwhile...back at the ranch....

In Scotland, they can no longer afford the drunks....so finally the politicians there are considering doing something about it. They want to raise the age of buying alcohol to 21, along with putting the price of it up to a basic minimum, I guess getting rid of 'Happy Hours', because maybe they're finally opened their eyes to the 'Unhappy Hours' that take over their towns and cities when the alcohol takes effect. Violent crime, fuelled by drink, is terrible up there, and liver problems are twice those of England...

And the beat goes on.....

An elderly couple coming back from Spain, as they can no longer afford to live out there, after 5 years of renting, rent almost doubled now, as the pound sinks against the Euro....They're lucky, their friends who own houses out there can't sell them, as the housing market is even worse than over here (Yikes!) The BBC followed them home to England, back to the Lake District, where they have family, and are now renting a small place in Carlisle..they interviewed a few others too, all of whom are fearful for the future, struggling to make ends meet, no longer able to live off their savings, as no interest is coming in, so their money is being eaten away.

And all the way through, people are muttering that it's almost as if those in power don't know what to do to stop it, as if they don't understand or aren't able to work out what to do, as if they don't even care.......

Yup.

Personally, I think the government should have bailed out Woolworths, because the huge damage that's followed has been catastrophic. Every single British High St, now has a huge empty shop in the middle of it, and the damage that's done to confidence has been immeasurable, let alone the job losses, not just from Woolies, but from those who supplied them, others who relied on those suppliers, such as Zavvi etc..

I guess the good news in all this, and there's always some, is that never again will politicians be allowed to be so damn irresponsible, never will people 'trust' in the same blind way they have been doing.

The entertainment industry will go back to giving 'feelgood' programmes, beautiful films etc, to cheer people up. The fashion industry will take a turn for happy clothes, we'll all learn how to cook again, make chicken stock, turn our gardens into allotments, make do and mend..and go back to the days of World War II, but this time without the bombs and bullets, save for those that have been fired into our society by the Bastard Bankers...

But hell, we're British! We can overcome anything! :0) And THAT is the one thing that is NOT being preached out there in the media, that the British are at their best when they have absolutely nothing, or are under attack.

So yes, another silver lining, perhaps a gold one, is that suddenly, our society may start to come back, people will start helping each other out, thinking about one another, caring again.

I recall way back, when I was 17 and working in Boots the Chemist (no longer owned by Jesse Boot's family, but by an Italian multi-billionaire who's taking the heart out of that company too).....standing in the shop one day, when an elderly gent walked in. We got talking, and he started on about the way of the world, something had happened in the news, can't recall what it was now...but he looked at me and smiled, sadly, then said:

"Do you know what we need, dear? We need a bloody good war!"

I stared at him, a bit shocked....

"Do you know what war does? It focusses the mind on what's important in life, that's why we need one, to get our values back."

Well, I don't want that to happen, ever. But I know that right now, we are facing a different kind of war, on a worldwide scale, one without armies, thankfully, but one where many are going to get hurt, nonetheless. However, just as that old chap said, our minds are going to become far more focussed on what truly matters in life. Big Brother and Posh and Becks ain't it. Bankers and *ankers ain't it.
Homes in the sun and the latest 'must have' house look, or new car, ain't it. Being there for one another is what this is all about. Helping each other wherever and however we can. Oh, and all getting back to having a bloody great sense of humour too, because that sees you through one helluva lot.

Someone bring back Black Adder, we need him! :0)



Glad you enjoyed the gig, Levells (knew you would!) ;0) And yup, Reg is a real sweetheart, isn't he. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: The middle classes are revolting
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:53 AM

Don't forget the South of the island of Ireland, the morally bankrupt government is in deep crisis but they keep on trying to paper over the cracks - the voters are not buying it!