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Folk vs. Country

GUEST,Cyparissa 23 Feb 09 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,Stew 23 Feb 09 - 10:02 AM
BobKnight 23 Feb 09 - 10:11 AM
Dave Hanson 23 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM
john f weldon 23 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM
Zen 23 Feb 09 - 10:20 AM
quokka 23 Feb 09 - 10:50 AM
Wesley S 23 Feb 09 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Jim 23 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM
Roger in Baltimore 23 Feb 09 - 11:09 AM
Folkiedave 23 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM
Bill D 23 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Cowboy Nigel 23 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM
topical tom 23 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM
Jayto 23 Feb 09 - 03:16 PM
Stringsinger 23 Feb 09 - 05:39 PM
skipy 23 Feb 09 - 05:52 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Feb 09 - 05:54 PM
Art Thieme 23 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM
Mrrzy 23 Feb 09 - 06:15 PM
dick greenhaus 23 Feb 09 - 06:19 PM
Jayto 23 Feb 09 - 07:24 PM
quokka 23 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,Jayto 23 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM
kendall 23 Feb 09 - 07:54 PM
Peace 23 Feb 09 - 07:59 PM
Bobert 23 Feb 09 - 08:02 PM
kendall 23 Feb 09 - 08:18 PM
TinDor 23 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM
pdq 23 Feb 09 - 09:11 PM
The Sandman 24 Feb 09 - 05:37 AM
bankley 24 Feb 09 - 07:12 AM
quokka 24 Feb 09 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 24 Feb 09 - 08:55 AM
Dave Hanson 24 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM
quokka 24 Feb 09 - 09:21 AM
Acorn4 24 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM
Jayto 24 Feb 09 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 24 Feb 09 - 10:45 AM
dick greenhaus 24 Feb 09 - 10:53 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM
Jayto 24 Feb 09 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 24 Feb 09 - 12:09 PM
Jayto 24 Feb 09 - 12:30 PM
Jayto 24 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM
The Sandman 24 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM
bankley 24 Feb 09 - 01:13 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM
bankley 24 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM
Nehi 24 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM
bankley 24 Feb 09 - 08:16 PM
TinDor 24 Feb 09 - 09:01 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Feb 09 - 10:24 PM
Will Fly 25 Feb 09 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,Bill the sound 25 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM
fumblefingers 25 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM
GUEST,KP 26 Feb 09 - 04:32 AM
The Sandman 26 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 26 Feb 09 - 01:38 PM
Nehi 27 Feb 09 - 07:40 AM
kendall 27 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 27 Feb 09 - 10:24 AM
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Subject: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Cyparissa
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:58 AM

So, what exactly (in your opinion) is the difference between "folk music" and "country music?" Is there a difference worth noting? In my experience there is, but it can be difficult to spot sometimes. I've heard the opinion that any folk music sung in a Southern accent is country. I've also heard that any folk music with excess banjo is country.

What do you think?


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:02 AM

I think that Folk music is still lingering around in it's original form. True country music deceased long ago. There, I said it!
Stew


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: BobKnight
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:11 AM

There's an old saying, "Comparisons are odious."


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM

Nashville killed real country music, there was no difference between real ' country ' and folk music.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM

We've done this before.
Folk & Country were considered almost interchangeable terms before the fifties. (After all, Uncle Dave Macon is clearly claimed by both sides.)

When the Weavers referred to themselves as "folk", those not wishing to be associated with lefties called their music "country".

But, like many distinctions, there's no clear edge. Bluegrass? Old Timey? Stingbean? Johnny Cash singing with Bob Dylan?


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Zen
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:20 AM

True country music deceased long ago

Nashville killed real country music

There is still a lot of excellent Appalacian, old-timey, bluegrass and other forms of "country" music around so far as I can see!

Zen


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: quokka
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:50 AM

It depends how narrow (or broad)you like your definitons...I love a great variety of 'folk music' and also what some people call 'country'...and then there are some amazing musicians and singers who seem to transcend such narrow categories, like Emmy Lou Harris or Hank Wlliams or Alison Krauss, or even our very own Bruce Murdoch!Idont get Shania Twain et al...sorry if I am offending anyone here! Yet I love most of the stuff that's modern folk...the trendy term now is 'roots' or "blues'n'roots" music, at least that's how it's marketed here in Australia. It actually covers a great variety of different styles that are sort of hard to categorise in the traditional sense - which suits me fine. Some of the best music of the last fifty years is a hybrid of two or more different styles anyway...just my opinion!! Feel free to disagree ;-)

Cheers

Quokka


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:59 AM

It's easy to spot the difference between folk and country - they are in two seperate bins at the record store. That's assuming you can find a record store that stocks folk and country recordings.

Modern country owes a lot more to 70's rock and roll than it does to folk.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

Old country (Jimmie Rogers, NLCR, Charlie Poole, Norman Blake, fiddle tunes, traditional bluegrass...)can be called "folk", but all folk is definitely not "country". Country is a sub-catagory of Folk.
I wouldn't call Jean Redpath, Planxty, Alan Mills, Mississippi John Hurt... "country", but they are certainly "folk".

On the other hand, I wouldn't call what passes for country these days "country" nor "folk".


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:09 AM

I agree with Wesley that modern country owes a lot to rock and roll. I also agree with Quokka, that many country tunes fit easily into folk music or owe some roots to folk music. Kathy Mattea's new album focusses on coal mining and includes many tunes most people would call folk. I am not sure we will be able to parse out easily the differences. It falls back to the old "What is Folk Music" question. I have seen folk venues that offer traditional folk offer a group that was singing traditional country like the Osbourne Brothers. For myself, I find that some country music falls easily into my repertoire. Other country music wouldjust as easily fall into the rock and roll.

Listen to what you like. Play what you like. Don't sweat the categories.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM

You don't get this in folk music.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM

'country' was a subset of 'folk'. Same roots, but with special emphasis. What 'country' in these days is a subset of greed, bad taste and urban beer halls.

Who, me? Opinionated? naawwwwww.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Cowboy Nigel
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

Folk vs. Country ????

not much of a fight..

Country would win easy......


.... they got more guns !!!!


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: topical tom
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

I'll avoid definitions. Suffice it to say that I like most folk music and very little modern country music.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Jayto
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 03:16 PM

Man I don't hear any country in modern country at all much less folk. When I flip through the radio stations the only way I know if it is a pop station or a country station is to wait and see if I hear a fiddle or steel guitar or something that slightly resembles it. Other than that I can see no difference. Older country I can hear the folk influence and alot of the artists started by performing folk and gospel song. Now though the artists of main stream country don't have a clue nor care about it's roots.
There is still hope though in Americana and Alt Country but main stream modern country is a lost cause.
JT


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 05:39 PM

When Alan Lomax subjected Country Music to his Cantometrics experiment, he decided
there was not too much difference in the vocal style and even instrumental style between
early county music (folk) and the more modern variety.

It's easy to see the modern style as an outgrowth of earlier country music.

The labels are always for the purpose of selling the music. Early country used to be called
"Hillbilly". "Nashville" is another bin designation. Basically, the roots are the same. A mixture of Scots-Irish, blues, and later Southwestern Swing (ala Bob Will et. al.)
Bluegrass is a recent development from the oil fields of Indiana but still maintains the early roots of "country". "Country" was so named because of its market in rural areas of the US.

It used to be Country and Western when it was aligned with cowboy songs and styles with a great influence from Hollywood (Gene, Roy, Sons of the Pioneers). Then Country lost the Western but not the hats. There was a Hawaiian influence probably from soldiers stationed there which spawned the electric steel guitar.

I think of country music spanning decades and having a tradition like the blues and jazz.
Much of it borrowed from the African-American musical tradition. The so-called "White Spirituals" took root in the Shape-note or Sacred Harp group singing style.

Atlanta was at one time the US Country music capital on the radio WSG (Welcome South Brother) and when a management dispute occurred over the nature of the music,
it went North to WGN in Nashville. Atlanta had a large fiddle contest in the 20's held at the Armory downtown. Fiddlin' John Carson and Gid Tanner started there.
(Check out Wayne Daniel's book "Pickin' On Peachtree").

It seems as though Country Music audiences haven't changed as much over the years as has Popular music from swing to rock to hip hop bands. Earlier artists such as the original Jimmy Rodgers or Hank Williams are still revered.

The contemporary Country Music audience attempts to identify themselves as white, working class and rural although obviously Country is now known all over the world.
Although it was associated with the Southern US, there were Country bands in rural New England in New Hampshire and Maine. In Chicago WLS (World's Largest Store) (Sears)
had one of the leading broadcast "jamborees" in the nation. It was popular in Canada.
Hank Snow was once a Canadian and there have been others who joined American Country music from there.

Contemporary country music is an outgrowth of earlier folk music.

Although much of it has become commercialized to meet the mass market nationally (some of it crossing over such as "Ode To Billy Joe") or Ray Charles, it retains a style of performance that is linked to the past.

The record company term "folk music" was used to isolate the Weavers, Kingston Trio and the popularizers of the so-called "folk music revival". It had relatively little to do with the
earlier forms of American folk music (including early "country") although it employed some of the song material. Pete Seeger was responsible for the popularity of many of these groups with his infectious and unique interpretations of folk songs.

It appears that the singer/songwriter movement spun off from Woody Guthrie via Dylan and other followers. Woody was a lot closer to earlier folk traditions than was Dylan. Dyaln found a career at the inception of the Popular Folk Revival by employing Woody's image and writing songs that were in that style. He was more of a popular songwriter, however, in that he reached a mass market but his songs reflected his own unique personality rather than as associated with an earlier country folk tradition as did the Carter Family and others from the time of Ralph Peer (a record producer who serviced the "hillbilly" market.)

There is a strong cultural link in country music and in the earlier days, much of it
was real folk rather than manufactured for a market.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: skipy
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 05:52 PM

I.Q.!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 05:54 PM

Folk has teh 1954 definition. It is not about style of performance and content, but deriviation. AFAIK, country is about style of performance and/or content, not derivation.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM

Frank,

Nice!!

Art


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:15 PM

I'm reminded of that line from the Blues Brothers, when the barmaid is asked what kind of music to play, and she says Oh, we got both kinds, country AND western!


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:19 PM

Oddly enough, "country" wasn't really considered to be "folk" by most "experts" until the late 1940s when Lomax issued "listen To Our Story" and "Mountain Frolic". It wasn't really widely accepted until the Harry Smith Anthology appeared.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Jayto
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:24 PM

Modern country is not country I am sticking by what I said. I did enjoy reading your post but I still stand by how I feel. I also disagree about the Indiana bluegrass thing ( I have to do you not know about the Kentucky Indiana rivalry? I'd be kicked out of Ky lol)
Cya
JT


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: quokka
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM

Mrrzy, you beat me to it! Long live Jake and Elwood!

Jayto I agree with you about what thay call 'modern country' - it's pop music dressed up to appeal to a certain crowd. Completely different to what is known as 'alt country' which can include a wide variety of performers, like Ryan Adams, Emmy Lou, Michelle Shocked,
Natalie Merchant, Connor Oberst, Dave Matthews...of course these performers all cross boundaries, and I'm sure some people might be surprised at them being included here. I think the point is they're not limited to a narrow style, but incorporate elements of blues, folk, country, rock and yes even punk.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM

Punk is a major influence in alt country. I have worked heavily in the alt country field with some of it's biggest acts and believe me the influence is there. I came to folk through punk (and eventually alt country and americana) and I was shocked how many of the artists took similar routes.
cya
JT


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: kendall
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:54 PM

If it has drums it aint country.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Peace
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:59 PM

Country music today is glitzy. The singers wear cowboy hats. The horse is seldom on stage. The older country stuff was in many cases 'cowboy/cowgirl' music. Punching cattle, that kind of thing. Where the line is drawn I do not know. I do know I like what I like, and I took a trip to a CD store to see how things were categorized--to help with a writing contest I want to enter. I can't figure it out. I do know there were 8 rap bins. There was one very tiny folk bin. In there were a few what I'd call country singers. Emmy Lou, MCC, etc.

Beats the heck outta me.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:02 PM

Well, I've played 'um both and there's a lot of difference...

For one, folk music is more into stories and country is more centered around the hook...

Second, country is real twangy and folk is more articulate...

Thirdly, country drives with 4-4 time and folk is less resticted...

Fourthly, country has become highly "produced" while folk stays more natural/organic...

That's my take on it...

Bobert


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Subject: Lyr Add: IT SURE AS HELL AIN'T COUNTRY (K Morse)
From: kendall
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:18 PM

About 15 years ago I had occasion to ride with a young woman for about 40 miles. We no more than got under weigh when she asked if I like country music. I figured by her age she meant modern country music, so I said "No, as a matter of fact, I don't." I don't know why she asked because she immediately turned the radio on and up comes some inane piece of crap like
I love a rainy night"

I felt like a fox in a leg hold trap, tried to lie back and think of England, but it was a horrible experience. By the time I got out of that car my nerves were bleeding. When I got home my mind started turning it over and this is what came out.

                     It sure as hell aint country

I was rolling along on the interstate
In a 18 wheeler two hours late
Searching the dial for a country song
Never did find one...nothing on but rock music
There's an oxymoron.

I picked up a hiker to relieve the gloom
Thought if she's willing I get us a room
Make our own music, no such luck,
All she wanted was my radio.

She found a station that was playing that stuff
Some call country and that was bad enough
Then she started singing along!
Had a voice that would shatter Tupperware.

We rode that way for miles and miles
I tried to talk but she just smiled
Kept on singing with that awful voice
Finally, I knew I had no choice.
I gotta get rid of her, or shut her up somehow.

We stopped at a diner outside Duluth
Found myself a darkened booth
Tried to get friendly but she couldn't hear
She had one of them damned Walkmen stuck in her ear.
Same old rock and roll,
Nuff to make you chew your own leg off.

I dropped her off in my own home town
She opened the door, and 'fore she jumped down
She wanted to know if we'd meet again,
I said "Aint likely, I aint into pain."

I finally walked through my own front door
TV was on going full bore, kid was watching TNN
And that same old racket hit me again.
Can't get away from it, it's like pollution, lawyers,
It's everywhere.

Some guy was pounding a big stack of drums
Screaming something at the top of his lungs
Another had a "Steel" and a cowboy hat
Kid said "What's the matter? you don't like that?
He's singing about the land of the free
I says "Boy, you could have fooled me, but I'll tell you this much,
It sure as hell aint country.

copyright KM


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: TinDor
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM

IMO, if you're refering to the old school "Country" and what they call "Folk", the difference is that "Country" has more twang. What they call "Country" now, is closer to Rock & Roll.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: pdq
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:11 PM

If I may say so, it is great to see Art Thieme, Frank Hamilton and Kendall Morse talking about music.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 05:37 AM

does country music use 6/8 time?
I cant recall much that does,folk music does.
earlier country music,sometimes overlapped with folk music,Doc Watson, is surely both?
Flatt and Scruggs marketed themselves in the 1960s,as folkmusic with an overdrive,but surely the have both played the grand ole opry,so does that make them both .


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: bankley
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 07:12 AM

as Jayto says, there's not much on mainstream modern country radio that stands out.... a couple of weeks back I was driving on the trans-canada hwy, dialing across the radio for something to help the road. I got a university station out of Ottawa. A song came on, and I nearly went in the ditch, it was so good.... rough, expressive voice, great story line, I listened to a few more other songs to find out who the singer was...could't have guessed.. turned out to be Ian Tyson from his new CD. The song was 'From Yellowhead to Yellowstone'..a story about taking wolves from Alberta to re-populate the area in Yellowstone park. Man he sounded like an old wolf, scars and all.. just beautiful... he apparently blew out his voice awhile back and has a real rough rasp now... I'm glad he had the guts to do this new project... from what I heard it's the kind of folk/country/cowboy music that I love... if you get a chance, check it out... but don't expect his vintage warbling...

(a nod for Ian ) I have a few stories about him... but that'll keep


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: quokka
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 07:32 AM

I'd like to think any of us can talk about whatever we like,pdq - thanks.

Cheers.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:55 AM

I don't get mainstream, modern country music, to be honest - but maybe something gets lost in translation. However... I couldn't live without the Scud Mountain Boys, Son Volt, Wilco, The Handsome Family, Willard Grant Conspiracy, The Walkabouts, Bonnie 'Prince' Billy, Smog, Uncle Tupelo, The Jayhawks, South San Gabriel, Vic Chesnutt, Giant Sand, Calexico, Jim White, Califone and a fair few others. Dunno if you'd call 'em country, but they have a bucketful of twang and crap on the big hat stuff from a great height.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM

If Garth Brook's hat gets any bigger he'll disappear altogether [ one can only hope ]

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: quokka
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:21 AM

I'd call them 'alt country', Spleen Cringe, the half I recognised anyway! I'll need to look up the other half - thanks for the tips! I can feel a trace coming up.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM

Carter Family would definitely be folk I would have thought.

Perhaps Hank Williams marks the boundary - songs about God and mother tend to give way gradually to drunkenness, the devil and D.I.V.O.R.C.E.

On the other hand, I suppose "Wildwood Flower" was about a "failed relationship".


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Jayto
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:05 AM

Spleen that is great! You are the first I have heard mention the Handsome Family. I have to admit I was shocked when I read it. Right on!!! I have played gigs with Jay Farrar. Tupelo was a huge influence on me yrs ago and I still love them, Son Volt, and Wilco. The others you listed are great as well but it really caught me off guard you mentioning the Handsome Family.
CYa
JT


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:45 AM

Far as I'm concerned, Rene Sparks is one of the greatest contemporary American lyricists and Brett has a wonderful, warm, rich voice - especially when you hear them on stage in a small venue. Songs like "Weightless Again" and "The Giant of Illinois" I can come back to time and again. "Arlene", meanwhile, is a modern country classic. Would have loved to have heard Johnny Cash tackling the Handsome Family songbook...


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:53 AM

If you want to go back a ways---say to 1930 or so--- almost all folk singing was solo; ensemble stuff was reserved for dance music. It might be said that "country" represented a couple of merges: dance-style group backup singing and church-style harmonies applied to secular music. "Country" was, from its inception, commercial music; a result of commercial sound recording and radio.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

Jimmie Rogers is often called the "Father Of Country Music". However, his style was highly influenced by Mississippi Blues. The Carters are called "The First Family Of Country Music." Their style was mountain folk music. Vernon Dalhart was an opera singer who became the first country recording superstar because his high nasal voice was easily transposed to records. Charlie Poole and Uncle Dave Macon brought in the mountain banjo sounds that would evolve into bluegrass. Gussie Davis, a man of colour, was a writer of many of the songs in early country recordings.
If you mix this all together you get a starting point for country music, but it is almost all folk based.
Through the years the music has evolved for better or worse. Like Kendall, I do not care much for the modern version of what is called country. The music played through the public media today no longer pleases my ear, and probably hasn't much in the last 30 years. The music has not died but has hidden through lack of media exposure. There still are old fossils like myself singing and playing the old stuff to small but appriciative audiences.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Jayto
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:34 AM

That would have been sweet to hear Cash cover some of the Handsome Family's songs. Have you seen the documentary Search for the Wrong Eyed Jesus? The Handsome Family does some great stuff on there. Have you ever listened to Slim Cessna's Auto Club out of Denver Colorada (I am not sure where you are from US or somewhere else)? The lead singer Munly used to have a band called Munly and the Lee Lewis Harlots that was great. Now Munly has The Lupercalians and I bet they are good (knowing Munly) but I haven't got a chance to hear them yet. They are in that same kind of vein. They are calling the style for The Handsome Family, Munly, Slim Cessna,The Legendary Shack Shakers...etc as Gothic Americana. I really dig whatever it is regardless of what they call it.
cya
JT


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:09 PM

Cheers JT, I'll check 'em out. Gothic Americana, eh - I like it!

Searching For the Wrong Eyed Jesus is a great film. Also features one of my favourite writers, the genius Harry Crews. Feast of Snakes is a book everyone needs to read. Who's that older feller who sings a couple of songs - cool looking geezer with a silver quiff? Johnny someone? Also sings a song (can't recall if its in the film) about coming from Fort Worth, Texas?

I'm in the badlands of Manchester, UK, but we used to have a local promoter, Nick Georgiou, who'd put on every alt country band that was touring Europe. Got to see lots of great music thanks to Nick.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Jayto
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:30 PM

You should check out the documentary Seven Signs. Alot of the guys I mentioned (The Legendary Shack Shakers, Munly, Slim Cessna, Pine Hill Haints, on and on) are in that film. Alot of the doc was filmed around where I live (for the good and the bad lol) because the lead singer from the Shack Shakers (and several band members) are local guys. The lead singer Col. JD Wilkes produced the film and it has won awards across the US for best doc. It only came out on DVD a couple of months ago. I have a link on my myspace to it

my myspace

I think it is still on my top friends. The site has previews and some cool music playing. I think it has Slim Cessna if I remember right.
Take it easy man
JT


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Jayto
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM

Don't use that link above I did something wrong. Use this one instead.

Use this one instead


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM

Jimmie Rogers is often called the "Father Of Country Music". However, his style was highly influenced by Mississippi Blues. The Carters are called "The First Family Of Country Music." Their style was mountain folk music
.maybelle carter was taught her guitar style by a black blues guitarist called LesleyRiddle,they are/were very much folk influenced,they even recorded folk songs like sinking in the deep blue sea[sinking in the lowlands low,or the golden vanity]


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: bankley
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 01:13 PM

I saw the Carters in the 60's. Mother Maybelle played an archtop Gibson. She sure flatpicked that thing. Nothing too fancy but solid as anything. It left a lasting impression.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM

That old Gibson archtop now has its place in the Country Music Hall Of Fame in Nashville.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: bankley
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM

I was just time-travelling again... thinking about the old country shows I'd go to see in Montreal. It was always a package event featuring several stars plus some good locals. Not a lot of tech. Decent sound, two of three lights. Not much jumping around. Often a couple of the 'acts' would hang around, sign autographs, talk to you a bit..
I met Buck Owens and Don Rich like that one night... A few of the folks I heard were Sonny James, The Browns, Kitty Wells, Webb Pierce, Hank Snow, Sheb Wooley, Bill Anderson, Connie Smith, Skeeter Davis, Hank Jr.(singing Daddy's songs).. lots more... but I liked Buck, he had drums and a new twangy sound and did it all from California.. he 'bucked' the system for sure.... I stopped going to those shows when my hair got longer and it got tense in the crowd...
Besides there was a lot of other things to listen to and see... but for me, it all started with country... who knows where it'll end up ?


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Nehi
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM

I love this question. Kinda like picking the fly s**t out of the pepper.

I am one of those old timers who has played on the opry and was fortunate enough to play with the Carter family, Hank Williams Sr., Flatt and Scruggs and even did a little session work back in the early 50's with Sam Phillips in Memphis.

My opinion is just that...an opinion. My Grandmother was Irish and taught me the lyrics and melodies to tons of old Irish Jigs and Ballads. My family grew up playing on the front porch and the songs we played and sung were those folk songs (YES, FOLK SONGS). They were mostly lyrically based and were handed down from generation to generation.

When I moved on to play the beer joints and VFW halls, the music was primarily instrumental with a few lyrics thrown in to function as breaks from the square dances. The songs related to the social conditions of the singer...love, divorce, whiskey, family. Mostly original music or music heard on the old Victrola.

So, I would say that Folk music is that music handed down from generation to generation and features lyrics while country music is original music passed on thru media.

Just my old humble opinion.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: bankley
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:16 PM

Nehi, that about separates the pepper from the poop...
You rode with Giants..      I bet you have some more truly great stories to tell... thanks so much... R.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: TinDor
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:01 PM

Sandy Mclean wrote:

Jimmie Rogers is often called the "Father Of Country Music". However, his style was highly influenced by Mississippi Blues. The Carters are called "The First Family Of Country Music." Their style was mountain folk music.

Jimmie Rogers played a mixture of Anglo-celtic mountain music with blues but the Carter Family played a mixture of Anglo-Celtic mountain music, white gospel, Blues and Negro Spirituals. Generally speaking, "oldschool" country music is like Anglo-celtic music combined with Blues.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:24 PM

Welcome Nehi! Please stay and share more with us!


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:11 AM

It's interesting how much crossover there must have been from genre to genre. I have a fairly large collection of records by Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys, and the thing that strikes me, over and over whenever I play through them, is not only is there a huge variety of styles in Wills's recordings as a whole - but even within some individual records. Some start off with a real country fiddle sound then break into hot jazz licks on guitar (the great Eldon Shamblin) and trumpet, for example. A simple little folksy tune turns into 40s swing.

Weird and wonderful - and I love it. My guess is that, on the road from rural venue to rural venue, city to city, they tried to cater for every possible audience. Steve Ripley's Tulsa band The Tractors has a little of that mix - and I believe Steve did organise a Playboys reunion at one time.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM

I would prefer this thread to be tittled Folk and Country - music should be all about fun and enjoyment not competition, which the versus implies.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: fumblefingers
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM

My country is the music that used to play on beer joint juke boxes.
Hank Williams & Thompson
Lefty Frizzell
Kitty Wells
Faron Young
Hank Snow
George Jones
Johnny Cash
Patsy Cline
Louvin Brothers
Rose Maddox

And dozens more. It's hard to find a good beer joint any more.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:32 AM

From here in the Scottish bit of the UK, I wonder whether 'Country' is only/exclusively an American genre? There is folk music from many countries, but is there such a thing as (for example) 'English country music'? I don't mean people playing American country music or Americana, but people writing songs about the experience of rural living in England/Britain today?

I wonder if, for example, Show of Hands (whom I like hugely, so this is not a criticism) might be better described as 'English alt-country' rather than English folk music. When Tanglefoot were here it struck me that a song like 'When Dad and Uncle Archie Lost the Farm' was 'Canadian country music' although they were playing in a folk club. Are there similar artists in other countries? Perhaps Jimmy Shand might be described as a Scottish Country musician (not being a Scot I'd defer to the opinion of the Scots on that one).

What happens in Ireland, France, Australia, etc?

Interested to know!

Cheers
KP


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

NEHI ,thankyou for your contribution ,is there any counry music in 6 /8 time,I find it strange that jigs are the the oldest dance form in irish music,but dont appear to have been preserved in the appalachian tradition [correct me if I am wrong]but do they occur or are they played very much in american old thyme/country music?


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:38 PM

"Show of Hands (whom I like hugely, so this is not a criticism) might be better described as 'English alt-country'"

Though, I must admit, I am not a fan of Show of Hands, this probably the bet description of their music I've ever read.

The Jimmy Shand Band, I've always been lead to believe, were/are Scottish Country Dance, this does open up a debate I think, about the definition of the word country in music. If you add the national label to country ie Scottish Country Dance, does this help with the definition?


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Nehi
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:40 AM

Captain Birdseye...

6/8 time is very rare. I gave this quite a bit of thought and the only songs I recall in this time were Irish Washerwoman and Skiver the Quilt.

I remember that most of the Irish and Scottish Jigs that I heard as a young boy had been transposed into 2/4 or 4/4 time because square dancing was a two beat dance, not three.

Perhaps there are more but for the life of me, I can't remember them.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

fumblefingers, I'd like to add to your list, Roy Acuff, Ernest Tubb and Willy Nelson.

My posts keep disappearing...don't know why.


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Subject: RE: Folk vs. Country
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:24 AM

Maybe Little Jimmy Dickens should be on that list as well!

Tater


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