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BS: 63 years ago

goatfell 24 Feb 09 - 10:52 AM
goatfell 24 Feb 09 - 10:53 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 24 Feb 09 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Emma B 24 Feb 09 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,AR 24 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM
bald headed step child 24 Feb 09 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Emma B 24 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM
kendall 24 Feb 09 - 12:37 PM
SINSULL 24 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM
DMcG 25 Feb 09 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,goat fell 25 Feb 09 - 08:02 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 25 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM
SINSULL 25 Feb 09 - 09:16 PM
mg 25 Feb 09 - 10:18 PM
goatfell 26 Feb 09 - 05:29 AM
bubblyrat 26 Feb 09 - 09:10 AM
DMcG 26 Feb 09 - 09:27 AM
Ebbie 26 Feb 09 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,goatfell 26 Feb 09 - 12:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM
SINSULL 26 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM
Donuel 26 Feb 09 - 10:17 PM
SINSULL 27 Feb 09 - 09:20 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM
SINSULL 27 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM
Riginslinger 27 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM
bald headed step child 28 Feb 09 - 03:18 AM
bald headed step child 28 Feb 09 - 03:23 AM
DMcG 28 Feb 09 - 03:46 AM
goatfell 28 Feb 09 - 04:31 AM
Monique 28 Feb 09 - 04:36 AM
DMcG 28 Feb 09 - 05:02 AM

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Subject: BS: 63 years ago
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:52 AM

Now how can anyone say that the Holocaust never happened!



In MEMORIAM - 63 YEARS LATER

It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in memory of the six million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians and 1,900 Catholic priests who were murdered, massacred, raped, burned, starved and humiliated with the German and Russian Peoples looking the other way!

Now, more than ever, with Iraq, Iran, and others, claiming the Holocaust to be 'a myth,' it's imperative to make sure the world never forgets, because there are others who would like to do it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:53 AM

i just hope it doesn't happen again


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:24 AM

Goatfell, it is not for nothing that the US Holocaust Museum, Simon Wiesenthal Center and the various Museums of Tolerance, etc. have archived liberation photos, photos and accounting records of the the camps, and first person recorded testimonies of survivors, and rescuers.

In these organizations repose the refutations of the claptrap of Holocaust deniers. These records must survive mankind itself, so that even the last person on earth knows the truth.

Even the youngest survivor who could have an actual memory of their brutal camp experiences and can give first person testimony are now about 70 years old. When they are gone, all that will be left is the written and pictorial record. The deniers will think they have an open field, if the archives are not saved and protected.

This is why I support several of the Holocaust organizations.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: GUEST,Emma B
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:18 PM

Almost six million Jews in Europe perished in the holocaust

But, more than five million other innocent citizens - men women and children were also persecuted, tortured, tattooed and killed.


Among the earliest victims of discrimination and persecution in Nazi Germany were political opponents.
Established in March 1933, the Dachau concentration camp was the first regular concentration camp established by the National Socialist (Nazi) government.
During the first year, the camp held about 4,800 prisoners; initially primarily German Communists, Social Democrats, trade unionists, and other political opponents of the Nazi regime
The Nazis also persecuted authors and artists whose works they considered subversive


On August 22, 1939, a few days before the official start of World War II, Hitler authorized his commanders, with these infamous words, to kill "without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space [lebensraum] we need".
Hundreds of Polish community leaders, mayors, local officials, priests, teachers, lawyers, judges, senators, doctors were executed in public.
Much of the rest of the so-called Intelligentsia, the Polish leading class, was sent to concentration camps where they later died
Non-Jews of Polish descent suffered over 100,000 deaths at Auschwitz. The Germans forcibly deported approximately 2,000,000 Polish Gentiles into slave labor for the Third Reich

Because Hitler's plan for a great Master Race had no room for any homosexuals, many males from all nations, including Germany, were persecuted, tortured and executed
Between 5,000 to 15,000 homosexuals died in concentration camps during the holocaust.
Read The Men with the Pink Triangle: The True Life-and-Death Story of Homosexuals in the Nazi Death Camps by Heinz Heger

The Nazis decided that it was a waste of time and money to support the handicapped. During Hitler's "cleansing program", thousands of people with various disabilities were deemed useless and simply put to death
Read Forgotten Crimes published by Disability rights Advocates

The Nazis believed that both the Jews and Gypsies were racially inferior and degenerate and therefore worthless. Like the Jews, the Gypsies were also moved into special areas set up by the Nazis. Half a million Gypsies, almost the entire Eastern European Gypsy population, was wiped out during the Holocaust.
Read The Nazi Persecution of the Gypsies by Guenter Lewy

During World War I, black African soldiers were brought in by the French during the Allied occupation.
In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote that he would eliminate all the children born of African-German descent because he considered them an "insult" to the German nation. Once a child was decided to be of black descent, the child was taken immediately to a hospital and sterilized. About 400 children were medically sterilized -- many times without their parents' knowledge
Read Destined to Witness : Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany By Hans J. Massaquoi


Jehovah Witnesses were forced to wear purple armbands and thousands were imprisoned as "dangerous" traitors because they refused to take a pledge of loyalty to Hitler
Nearly 10,000 Jehovah's Witnesses imprisoned and at least 2,000 admitted to Nazi concentration camps of which at least half were murdered, over 250 by beheading.
Read
Facing the Lion - Memoirs of a Young Girl in Nazi Europe
by Simone Arnold Liebster


I have read posts here villifying Polish workers in the UK, condemning homosexuals and describing people in receipt of disability allowance as 'spongers' and worse

Never forget.........


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM

Goatfell, maybe you coul recall the Gaza Strip on your trip down memory lane and express your views on those who carried out the murders of innocent women and children here.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: bald headed step child
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:29 PM

Once there is govt sanctioned hatred of any one group, it is easily transferred to another.

I saw a quote on the cat awhile back that I can't remember who it was by, but it has stuck with me.

"Surely they will come for me, as I did nothing when they came for the others."

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, we must never forget.

BHSC


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: GUEST,Emma B
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:37 PM

Ethnic jokes and Jew bashing would be a good place to start.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM

Let's not forget the Germans who risked their lives as well as those of their own children by hiding Jews in their homes and at work. From what I have read, most of the world looked the other way not just the Russians and Germans. It was not the Catholic Church's finest hour either.

Government sanctioned hate - the US has an ugly history there as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 06:12 AM

My sister lives near Belsen and the mother of one of her friends has only one arm. When this woman saw a group of Jews being hurried towards the camp she held out some bread she was holding to them and a guard immediately cut off her arm with a bayonet.

As Sinsull reminds us, there were Germans who did not stand by and many of them paid the price.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: GUEST,goat fell
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:02 AM

I've done that and told be certain meembers to shut up


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM

Sinsull, you may or may not know this, but Jewish organizations have honored hundreds, if not thousands, of persons who aided Jews during the holocaust. They may have hid them, may have provide dfalse papers for them, may have helped smuggle them from the area, among other actions. These folks are determined to be "Righteous Gentiles." They are people who put their life at risk to help Jews during the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:16 PM

Yes, John. Interestingly enough, Pius XII was honored as a Righteous Gentile although his detractors say he did too little and could have saved thousands by speaking out against Nazi atrocities. In this case, hindsight is 20/80. No one knows for sure what might have happened as a backlash had he been more outspoken. An interesting subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:18 PM

And when we did speak up and sign up to prevent the same thing from happening in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, we were called all sorts of names. It is too hard for me to understand. But the same sort of thing was happening.

Today is Ash Wednesday. We are supposed to leave our ashes on..I guess in a way to say here I am...and know that we are supposed to do it under terrible circumstances as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:29 AM

tom Paxton wrote a song about war crimes commited by natoins not only Germany, but America and other countries in the world and would they be taken to war crime tibunal in Europe I don't think so. the is called We didn't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:10 AM

The thing is,the Germans will never admit to the enormity of what they were mostly in denial about anyway. I suppose it's part of their National Character to be arrogantly superior----There is a story that I heard,about an Englishman who was standing amid the ruins of a shattered and devastated German city just after the war,when a German woman came up to him and said" Zis is all your fault--if only you had surrendered in 1940,none of zis need have happened !"
         With an attitude like that,what hope is there ??


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:27 AM

The thing is,the Germans will never admit to the enormity of what they were mostly in denial about anyway

That might be your experience - it is not mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:14 AM

Nor mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:56 PM

now who is racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

"I suppose it's part of their National Character... "

Strange how someone who thinks they are attacking Nazism can come up with a comment like that, which echoes Nazi ideology...


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM

Germany has done a lot to atone for their genocides, and war crimes. Each of us has to decide for his/herself if they've gone far enough.

Japan, on the other hand, has barely acknowledged its atrocities of the WWII, especially in China and Korea. Their accountability for the war is not even touched on in their history school texts, unless things have changed in the past couple of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Read about the fate of the "Comfort Women". A nightmare that began for some at the age of 9.
War is brutal and vicious and soldiers do what their government says has to be done. But these women were innocents sold into sexual slavery by their parents, teachers, neighbors or just grabbed off the streets. Once freed, they were whores no one wanted.
In their 90s, they are still trying to get an apology and a recognition that they were wronged. There have been some pittances paid but for the most part Japan has refused to even admit that the women's claims are true.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:17 PM

I lost two great uncles and 1 great aunt along with countless nieces and nephews in the holocaust. We all have lost untold and unknown gifts from each person from this culture of great creativity and thirst for knowledge.

The great and small cruelties in life, to this day, make me wonder why.
When I hear explanations for the slightest antagonisms to the greatest crimes of genocide they all seem hollow and animalistic urges of self preservation and hunger red in tooth and claw.

When a monk pondered the question he came up with the 7 deadly sins.
Others point to an imagined icon of evil.

I now point to our own DNA since in my life I have never know a person with Down Syndrome to be evil or hateful. They do not seem to have hate within them.

Every religion, "ology" and philosophy have studied this question of hate and each have contributed some small truth as to how hate can be grown or diminished, while hate flourishes around us all.

Tonight the local roads were full of abnormal aggression and intolerence.

On this forum we could all probably point to an individual or two that have chosen you as their nemesis for some inexplicable reason.

### I would like to ask these people why. Does it give them joy? Does it give them a feeling of power? Does it help them in some way?
Do they see themselves as our angry editors? How have they decided that we are the "enemy"?


The ocean of our lives is full of the flotsom and detrius of hate within all the many currents of love. Yet I believe it is within us, deep in our ancestral DNA passed down by surviving by any means possible that hate lingers in waiting.

That some people who have an extra chromosome seem to without hate gives hope that the code of intelligent life can stumble onto a new direction of life without the drive to antagnonize or mass murder as an individual, society and civilization.


Meanwhile cultures are being bred through wars whose survivors are but trained fighting dogs, each more viscious and dangerous than its parents.


I believe these times will be looked upon as emerging from the darkest ages.
Teach your children well my friends.

lets sing... ;`D


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:20 AM

I read an article by a rabbi who contended that the Nazis' plan to eliminate the Jews actually strenghthened the race by a process of natural selection. The strongest, bravest, most cunning survived and are passing these traits on to their children.
An interesting concept although i think those who died might disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

New slogan: Darwinism in Action...courtesy of your local SS command.

Personnaly, I don't think this Rabbi's ideas, whoever he is will gain much traction in the Jewish world.

Have you a cite SINSULL? I'd be interested in this.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM

I will have to dig. But I will find it.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM

"Now how can anyone say that the Holocaust never happened!"

                      So what's to be done with the recent Catholic Priest, who doesn't deny that it happened, but disagrees with the methods of death and the numbers of victims?


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: bald headed step child
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:18 AM

According to an article on MSNBC, he may be charged in Germany and may spend up to 3 yrs in jail.

BHSC


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: bald headed step child
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:23 AM

Here is the priest story .

BHSC


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:46 AM

It is worth stressing two points arising from that article:
1. The Vatican has demanded that Williamson "absolutely and unequivocally" distance himself from his remarks about the Holocaust.
2. While he is referred to as a 'bishop' the ins and outs of this are more than I would want to inflicit on a bystander. Suffice it to say he is not a Catholic bishop in the ordinary sense of the term. Just regard is as a label with no other implications.


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:31 AM

We should not be blaming every German, Italian, Japanese person for causing with mass murder but some of you are which during ww2 the Germans were doing to the Jews so what I'm saying is that not all German, Italian, Japanese person was bad kettle pot black I think


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: Monique
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:36 AM

Germans do things to keep memory alive. On the Franco-German tv channel "Arte" there's a weekly program called "Les mercredis de l'histoire" / "Geschichte am Mittwoch" (there's no English version of the site). It's mostly about WW II though it may be about other recent conflicts.
About the German woman "Zis is all your fault..." you can't prevent people from being stupid. If we ever knew the way to do that, mankind and the world wouldn't be in the state they're in!


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Subject: RE: BS: 63 years ago
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:02 AM

As I said, I've been to Belsen several times. There is a NATO camp within a few miles and the soldiers are taken to the concentration camp to increase their understanding of what happened. These troops may be German, British, Swedish, ....

It is not often you see soldiers in uniform with tears running down their cheeks, while still standing to attention. I have seen it.


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