Singers - still get in free - 2009

Subject: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:04 AM

Where can floor singers still go - and get in free - to the Folk Club?

It's important to know because quite few clubs say "Floor singers welcome" but still charge singers full admission - perhaps (and only perhaps) a refund if you sing.

Obviously bar sessions don't need to be mentioned here but a 'free entry" singaround club in a seperate function room counts as some singarounds clubs or club nights charge - everybody!!

So where can we singers go and know know we won't be charged to get in?

Let's kick off with Brighton & Hove City - South Coast of Engaland.

Tuesdays - every week - Round Georges pub (Club Room Downstairs), Sutherland Road, Kemptown, Brighton. 8.30pm onwards. Club type: Singaround with occasional guests.

Wednesdays - every week - Crown and Anchor pub, Preston village (main A23 road). Clubroom at back of pub, by car park. 8.30pm onwards. Club type Singaround - slight traditional bias but all styles nevertheless welcome.

Sundays - every week - venue C&A pub as above. Singer -songwriters particularly wecome on Sundays.

There are other folk sessions in the city which I'll leave for the organisers to submit. The only ones I have been to are te above so only have second hand info.

So... the free entry clubs (for singers) in your area? Look forward to reading about them below!

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:09 AM

Wimborne, Dorset. Every Thursday at the British Legion. It's a singaround format and admission is free. However, we do pass a collecting tin around during the interval and people normally put £1 in. The money goes to the British Legion who do not charge us for using their premises.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:18 AM

Nice one Terry.

Are any of the "Cottage Industry" lads still singing in your area?

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:53 AM

Sadly , very few Pub Managers or landlords are content to let Clubs use their premises free of charge , except for 'sessions' in the bar , so some kind of payment has to be levied , if only to pay for the room !

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 12:20 PM

I couldn't place Cottage Industry at first but a quick Google revealed all. Tich is still playing at sessions around the area and Clive Jennings was a regular at Wimborne until a few months ago. Not sure why he's stopped coming. I've not seen Peter Birnie in years but remember him well from the glory days of the Wessex Trad club in Bouremouth.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 12:24 PM

Oh, and Steve Faulkner is also a regular at Wimborne. Put Wimborne Sessions into Google and you'll find pictures of Clive and Steve.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM

Free you ask?

1st Thursday of the month - Blackmore Folk club (now in Exile) at the Rose and Crown (upstairs function room) in Writtle (near Chelmsford) Essex.
Hosted by the very talented Alan Francis (Mudcat known as LanFranc).
Starts at 8:30. Almost always crowded.

2nd Thursday of the month - Red Lion, Margaretting, (near Chelmsford) Essex.
Hosted by???(I think his name is Paul)
Starts 8:30. Very well attended by excellent musos and one clogger with his own board. I haven't been for some time. Must go back.

Last Sunday of the month - Nags Head pub, Lower Stoke, Kent.
Hosted by the effervescent Richard Bridge (Mudcat known as Richard Bridge).
Starts at 12:30. Only 3 sessions old but very well attended by stellar musos. May only run outside of festival season - waiting to see.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 12:58 PM

Technically the Nags is a bar session, not a club. But thank you for the kind words. Weren't Brian and Marion ROdgers (No Worries) good last week?

Incidentally it's ROUGHLY the last Sunday of the Month to avoid clashes with big screen TV Association Football)

Next two sessions 29th March and 26th April.

May definitely NOT on the 31st May -

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:04 PM

ARRGGHH! I wasn't there. I missed them. So not fair.

I sit corrected, but on the pub website it says folk club doesn't it?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 02:41 PM

I blooped. Not 26th April (too much going on that Georgy weekend) but 19th April.

Yes, but It would be a lot of trouble to educate Peter the landlord in the niceties, and above on this thread it does make it clear that the distinction for the purposes of this thread is clubs (ie separate room) from bar sessions and we are definitely a bar session.

Incidentally the guitar in the banner for the folkclub on the blogspot shows an electric guitar headstock, bit I ahve not kicked up about that either.

Shall we now leave this thread less sidetracked and talk Stoke on the Stoke 29 Mar thread?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 02:52 PM

Ok then the Margaretting one stated above is also a bar session.

But Blackmore (now in Writtle) is definitely a club. And free.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:48 PM

Leadfingers - I appreciate it can be difficult to get a free function room for a folk club but just think "Market Forces".

If a publican would rather have lots of extra drinkers even if they're in a function room; rather than an emplty pub, then you should be able to find a pub where you can 'do a deal'.

Of course it would be hard on a Friday or Saturday when bookings are most likely, but if you're able to negotiate a "quiet night' in the week AND can have a bit of flexibility if the odd booking did come in on that quiet night - it should be OK.

A Singaround club I visited last year moves to the CHurch Hall once or twice a year for that reason - but so long as you get reasonable notice then it shouldn't be much of a problem for a Singaround club.

Terry! Thanks for the info - my regards to anyone who remembers me (25 years ago!!!)


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:18 AM

Back to the thread topic

As a succesful folk club organiser it would have not been possible to book major guests without the support of quality entry paying 'floor singers cum residents'

jf you expect all floor singers to enter a folk club for free then how the hell is the club going to grow and survive

I find this attitude very selfish.

just stick to the sessions

I know tales about where artistes pay to sing as support for main acts, though these have come from the U S

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:10 AM

Since our residents/floor singers on an average night run into double figures it would be a false economy to have a floor singers free rule; after all the najority will have come to see the guest for whom the club has to pay.
Tonight I will be helping set the room out, MC-ing the evening and clearing the place up afterwards. But I'll still pay my entrance fee!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: G-Force
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:20 AM

I agree with breezy. If a 'club' charges, because it has expenses of whatever kind, why would you expect to get in free? If singers/musos keep turning up and the club thrives, then great, everyone is happy. Why would you expect them to let you in for nothing?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:29 AM

Mr Fyvie - Finding a landlord who is NOT a Money grubbing grasper is the easy bit round here - Very few pubs even HAVE a function room any where these days ! They have nearly all been opened up as One Bar Pubs.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:40 AM

Why on earth should floor singers ever expect to get into a club for free?

It's a complete nonsense...anyone who expects free entry is on a total 'vanity' trip and clearly has no interest in or respect for either the club or the professional performers who are trying to make a living. Many are so self absorbed that they don't even hang around after they've performed.

We gave up free entry many years ago (offering a 50% reduction instead) and it was one of the best things we've ever done. This still leaves a small reward for performing but the club and/or artist aren't disadvantaged. As a result practically all the vain time-wasters disappeared overnight (good riddance) leaving only those who had the interests of the club at heart. Invariably these were the performers of the highest standard.

Funny that, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: alex s
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:37 AM

Burnley folk club is free to all (singers and audience)- we pass a glass round if we remember. There may be a small charge on very special guest nights but the club philosophy is to keep things as non-commercial as possible. No pa system either - we believe in acoustic performance and the room is small enough to do it in. Some very distinguished guests have commented favourably on the "back to the roots" atmosphere.
Come and see us -

www.burnleyfolkclub.co.uk

for directions.

Alex

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 01:15 PM

Thank you Richard Bridge for your openess, honesty and good luck to your venture

O K Burnley, you are not a folk 'club' you are a folk session/gathering.

To reset/re-evaluate your status to be called a folk club show us see your guest list for the last 10 weeks

Good luck , keep up the good work

Ian Fyvie, you are by definition according to real folk club organisers   a Vanitinarian. I like that Twicks.

So pay up and support the real folk scene

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:16 PM

Lots of Payclub organizers whingeing - Brilliant!!

I'm not the slightest bit interested in being fodder for the big names Orgaizers fawn over. Nor am I the slightest bit interested in supporting the Folk wing of the music industry - not the slightest!!

WHAT I AM interested in getting ordinary people with a bit of talent and a like of folk music to give it a try and join the old folk tradition where people share music with each other.

I could go a session tomorrow night and get one floorsong, and see a well known artist for nothing at the end of the evening (the new 'half-and half' formula which is becoming popular). No thanks! - not worth getting the guitar out for (no offence to the artist - who's a decent bloke).

I can go to a singaround folk club on Tuesday instead and sing three along with anyone else who wants to have a go - now that IS worthwhile as far as I'm concerned. And this, Breezy, is just as much part of the REAL folk scene as orgaizers dribbling over the lists of guests they have booked.

Twickfolk SHOULD know that I'm not attacking the Payclubs for existing, creating a living for pro singers or getting big names to new punters - fine - all for expanding folk.

What I think is despicable, however, is the way some of the Payclub elite think their clubs are the ONLY sort of folk clubs; their favourite guests are the only ones worth listening to, and the only mark of success in folk is lots of bookings, CDs and festival appearances.

This is the same old rubbish that commercial publishing interests have been peddling for years - ie. only those artists they signed up are 'Good"; and "Vanity" accusations are the the main weapons against the talent they haven't signed/can't sign. This Vanity lark goes back to the days of Charles Dickens - the great man himself was a victim of these pathetic elitists I believe.

Lastly - can I suggest that people look carefully the reason for this thread, it is a positive, forward looking thread to let floor singers know where they CAN support a folk club and not pay to sing (paying to play is a joke in rock music).

If the Big Boys and Girls don't like their cages rattled, they can avoid this thread, can't they!


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:16 PM

I suspect that what we are seeing here is a bit of a clash between the 60s ethos - long live the revolution brothers, through dope, music, and fucking in the streets, death to the man and the pigs, peace love add understanding and thank you brother for sharing ou have paid your dues and contributed so we are all equal, on the one hand and 80s/90s Thatcherwasm on the other - are you profitable, you are not a person but an economic unit, there is no such thing as society.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:32 PM

Most of these so called 'floor singers' are not, because they are not good enough to be given floor spots in proper folk clubs.

A session is a good place to start though, therefore they have a purpose.

The Herga folk club is a real singers club, run by singers for singers and we all pay our monetary dues and have done for over 40 + years

then there's Tuesdays at Cecil Sharp's

They also have a booking policy, 2 examples only of well run clubs, proper clubs.

If you do not attend real folkclubs with 'name' guests you are not truly supportive.

and sod the comparison with rock

I always expect to pay and when a session is free I think it is under achieving and could do better and go further but that takes bottle by someone to organise things properly

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ref
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:54 PM

Our now defunct local Coffee House used to allow open mike performers in for free. I performed 2-3 times but always paid anyway. It never ceased to amuse and disgust me that some spongers would get in free regularly by signing up to spew their ridiculous "slam" poetry. This ain't Thatcherism. It's taking on the responsibility of supporting your community.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:54 PM

Lastly - can I suggest that people look carefully the reason for this thread, it is a positive, forward looking thread to let floor singers know where they CAN support a folk club and not pay to sing (paying to play is a joke in rock music).
there is one very good commercial reason ,for letting floor singers in either free or at a reduced rate:it brings more people to the pub,who then have a little more money to buy beer /soft drinks,this keeps the publican happy .
the nucleus of a good club are singers,without singers ,the organiser   has either to pay people to do a support or have residents ,that he can rely on .
if an organiser seems short of floor singers ,it would seem a good idea to encourage people to sing, to let them in free.
if he /she finds that all he/ she is getting are poor singers,he can change the system .,
but as far as the landlord is concerned all he wants is numbers,if it means that the only way of getting people to a venue is by making it free,and that is the only way of maintaining a club, why not?.obviously this is not in my interest as a professional folk singer,but I am trying to look at this objectively ,rather than subjectively.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,SussexCarole
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:05 PM

Come and visit us at the Halfpenny Folk Club on Sundays at The Greyhound - on Gower (near Swansea). Singers nights are free of charge although there's a charge on guest nights (usually one per month).

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Diva
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:13 PM

I think it is a sad reflection of oor times. When I was "up and coming* it was the done thing to let singers and musicians in for free but sadly times have changed. But it is nice to hear that are a few places left

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:30 PM

Yes, not sure why singers should get in completely free, especially if it's a singaround which is likely to be all performing singers. Some places charge a lower door fee to performers, which I think works well, and can be structured to cover costs.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:46 PM

I like the idea of singers getting in free to folk clubs,most singers buy raffle tickets, and beer/soft drinks,so as well as contributing musically,they are contributing financially.
of course it is not a right,
but the organiser needs to make it clear what the policy of the club is, either on the website or in the local folk magazine .
the argument is singers get in free,[to guest booking clubs]because they are making a musical contribution,with a singaround club the situation is slightly different .
we appear to have a three tier system of clubs.
concerts[sometimes called folk clubs]with guest and support act or residents.
folk clubs with guests and a proportion of singers nights.
and singaround clubs.
I think the most important thing is clarity, on the website ,or in the local folk mag,everything is then up front,and nobody drives 30 miles or whatever ,with a mistaken idea, to be told on their arrival its 5 pounds/whatever for floor singers.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:30 PM

Breezy's not quite right about Herga.   I learnt a lot of songs when I was in my teens because floorsingers got free entry when John Heydon was running the club, and we had guests every fortnight.

IIRC it was MCP who pointed out in the 90s that charging floorsingers would bring in more money than putting up annual subscriptions, because so many of the club members wanted to sing, and it's the singers' nights that pay for the now monthly guests.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:37 PM

"If you do not attend real folkclubs with "name" guests you are not truly supportive..."

Touch yer forelock Breezy, if you're into believing what folk's organizing cliques, record companies and festival promoters' opinion is "good".

You won't like the top quality traditional folk performers who come to our local Singaround Clubs because, presumably, none of them (to my knowledge) have made commercial CD albums. I guess you won't like the suberb folk style songwriters we have around here for the same reason.

However I have to assume you would be enamoured by a mediochre guest your local Punterclub might put on because their name is in print as a guest at a so called 'Real' Folk Club".

I really don't see why I have to part with money for a so called 'professional' guest to support Folk. I view these pros as PART of the folk scene - no more than that.

I prefer to support another part of the folk scene, equally if not more valid than the guest/commercial part of the folk scene. My preferred part of folk is that bit which enables anyone to participate and develop their love for folk and abilities to contribute.

And has it occurred to organisers that charge singers that they've simply set up a talent contest with an entry fee (Folk X Factor Club?). Singers who won't take part in their silly contest are then lost to that folk audience because of the entry fee.

If this thread provides a network for sensible singers to reach audiuences who are sick of the old folk scene hacks and their pecking orders then it's doing a brilliant service for a healthy folk future. If today's singer charging clubs fade as a result of demanding floor singers pay and grovel to the Big Cheeses of the folk stage before they are considered as part of the folk world - then fine!

What will replace these Punterclubs will then be something true to the folk tradition and ethos, not a commercialised perversion of it.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Girl Friday
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:43 PM

It hasn't bean feasible in the past to let singers in for free to Orpington Friday Folk, as sometimes, it's only the singers who come along, though that's getting rarer. Our Singarounds are completely free. There is no obligation to contribute to the collection should you wish not to.
The Fox and Hounds Folk Club is different in that there is no seperate room, therefore, entrance must be free for all, both singers and guest nights. We make a collection and have a raffle on guest nights, but endeavour to give all comers a floor spot. Again there is no obligation to contribute, but it helps out the pub, as they pay for the guests. You can't get much for free these days .

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 08:03 PM

No-one should ever have to pay to play a floor spot, but I'm very much in favour of some degree of quality control. Decent floor singers/players are the backbone of the (UK) folk-scene and their contribution is (at least partly) an act of charity which should not be under-valued.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 08:23 PM

When I started going to folk clubs back in 1970 (Bridgend and Porthcawl) floor artists got in free. This was the norm in Wales at the time as there didn't seem to be that many of them. However when we started Llantrisant Folk Club 28 years ago we had to charge everyone because it seemed everyone was a floor artist and the club would not make any money otherwise to pay for any guests. To this day we have only 1 or 2 people who do not perform on a singers' night. It is so nice to have an audience believe me and please keep em coming! We have a great club.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Suzi Z
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:07 AM

On an singers night at The Anchor folk club in Byfleet, all floor singers get in free...with a 'pass the jugs at half time' when voluntary contributions are made...which has included buttons, old francs, washers etc ( I think they were meant to be a joke )
On a guest night floor singers would be expected to pay ..and rightly so in my opinion,why should we get in free to hear an act we have chosen to go and see .
The singers nights and guest nights are equally well supported ...respect for the organiser Mike Peach who runs one of the best folk/acoustic clubs in the south of England ...come along on a Thursday night ..to see for yourself
Anchor Folk Club
With my floorsinger hat on this time
xx Suzi

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:05 AM

Surely this is down to the ethos of different clubs?

There seems to be some stirring here and an attempt to set up more false divisions (we've done trad v contemporary to death, how else can I wind people up?)

We have 2 very different clubs locally (5 miles a part): Burneston Folk Club is strictly singaround and nobody pays..... except for beer, and everyone gets to sing/ play. It's a great, friendly club run by Glyn Cavell and Len Roland Jones. Any kind of acoustic music goes but most punters sing trad folk or self penned folky songs. Runs weekly and we all have a great time.

Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club is a monthly performance club, eveyone pays to get in and the main guest gets a fee and the support artist get expenses if they are travelling. We don't have floor singers (you can do that any Wednesday night at Burneston), we do have a singaround AFTER the main acts have finished..... and those who want to just see and hear quality music might have gone home.

There is quite an overlap in terms of organisation and membership (Glyn Cavell is the main M.C. at KFFC as well as organising Burneston) but the those of the Ian Fyvie persuausion don't generally attend KFFC (unless offered a support slot.... interesting that!). We get quite a few "normal" i.e non- folkies at KFFC, who wouldn't dream of going to a singaround.

These clubs generally work hand in hand without any rivalry or falling out..... they serve differing but complimentary aims.... and neither are in the pockets of the "big boys" of folk.

I love 'em both!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:03 AM

I let Bob Dylan in for nothing when he first arrived at the King and Queen, in 1962. He was virtually unknown (to me and most of the audience) but he had a guitar with him. Should I have charged him? He did sing though.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:07 AM

"I really don't see why I have to part with money for a so called 'professional' guest to support Folk"

By all means keep your money in your pocket, Ian but when you've finished counting your pennies perhaps stop to think for a minute. Ask not what your folk club can do for you...ask what you can do for your folk club. In the end we all get the folk scene we deserve.

There will always be chancers, free-loaders and time-wasters in any walk of life but sad to say rarely are they given as much slack as on the British folk scene. Where else would amateur performers of ANY standard consider their contribution to be a right rather than a privilege?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 06:27 AM

I prefer a system where members get in cheaper,plus a reduction for students and pensioners,and floor singers get in free,I agree its not always practical[Dame Patti Smith ,gave a good example ],but I think whenever possible,it is a good idea.
Where else would amateur performers of ANY standard consider their contribution to be a right rather than a privilege?
[quote]but some of them are not amateur ,some of them are professional or semi professional.when I ran a club,I had floor singers turn up such as Steve Turner ,Dave Walters,etc

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:17 AM

One of the gentlemen named by the Captain was present at our club last night along with another four (out of the seventeen floor singers called upon)who frequently enjoy guest status around the clubs and festivals. Everyone paid on the door, some who had travelled well in excess of thirty miles to be there, without a murmur of dissent as they had come to visit the club and enjoy our guests. Had we let all the residents and those capable of performing from the floor in free last night we would have taken approx £100 less on the door which would have ammounted to a considerable proportion of the guests fee.
As far as I am aware it is the norm throughout the East Midlands that everyone attending a folk club pays on the door whether a floor singer, listener, helper whatever and I am unaware of any whingeing from either organisers or attendees.
If anyone would like to see our forthcoming guest list go to www.tigerfolk.com and I don't think that you'll find many there who would expect any fawning.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:45 AM

One thing I have learnt from these various threads is just how enormously varied folk clubs are and how equally varied are people in what they want from a folk club. Excellent. Run your club the way you want to and go to the clubs that offer what you want.

The Lewes Saturday Folk Club is what seems to be now called a Guest Club. We usually have a guest performer (solo or group) who does two 45 minute sets and the rest of the time is taken up by floorspots and residents. We have two main operating principles - to give the guest the best deal we can (we want them to come back) and to give everyone who wants one a floorspot if we can fit them in. Since this can be a significant proportion of the audience, letting floorsingers in free, or even cheap, would nake a significant dent in our first principle. At our club, everybody, including the residents/organisers, pays the same. I'm not saying this is the "right" way to do it; there isn't a "right" way. It's just the way we do it and it works for us.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 01:15 PM

Hello itsme agian

Dear Ian if I knew where 'around here was' I would drop in.

Dear Kitty, thank you, where were you last week?

I will be welcoming of any floor singer who wants a spot at the Portland arms this coming Sunday , in St Albans, but be warned you have to fight to get the audience's attention.

this is not a folk club but a pub gig.

My next club gig will be on Fri 13th march at the Pumphouse watford and I would like a lot of admission paying attendees to come because I want it to be a financial success for the club and me the guest.

I shall be performing Trad songs along with contemporary songs of quality but I am not a singer/songwriter

and who knows what else might happen!!!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Dave Earl
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:07 PM

"Dear Ian if I knew where 'around here was' I would drop in."

Ian is in the same City as me - Brighton.

Dave

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 06:07 PM

HK: I remember a certain lady from Herga being very vocal about singers paying at Watford. Her argument was that all floor singers were prima donnas and should pay to strutt their stuff. She said that SHE wasn't a prima donna of course! lol

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

Breezy, the gay lights of Brighton are beckoning.
is Blowing in the Wind,in your repertoire .

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:45 PM

Whats the cathedral in Brighton called !? I cant remember.

Herga Kitty is a fantastic singer, I managed to book her with Les Sullivan, she has even been one of my backing vocalists.She possesses a vast repertoire and is higely under-rated, well worth paying to hear.

Brighton is a hot bed of lefties, no wonder their trouble. I blame Robb Johnson.

if those lights are beckoning then they'll have to come to me

yes capn , and I do it rather well too, and am proud of the fact though only on rare occasions ,as for the song I usually do it when requested by a younger late teen aged officianado. I do that rather well too.

Ask me another

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:54 PM

Robb Johnson lives in Hove (actually).
































...and there isn't a cathedral in Brighton.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:54 PM

Sorry Rhiannon how are you in Rhodesia ?

I must say that our Windward Folk and Spolight clubs in St Albans would not have been possible without the likes of you and Mick who attended all those pre club singarounds in Redbourn, along with guru, silverfish and others where we all coughed up a quid a week for a year before the folk club started up and then performed as guests for what were very modest fees.

Thank you it was a great venture and project.

Shame about the beer at the Comfort and the legion wanting the room for the committee's use only !

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 02:56 PM

To paraphrase 'Different Strokes for Different Folks' , it depends on the Attendees as to how a club (or session) functions ! Uxbridge USED to have a 'Singers get in free' policy , until it was two thirds of the attendees were wanting to sing !
The same goes for Maidenhead - On Singers and Musicians nights we regularly applaud the Audince ( BOTH of Them ) . If we performers got in free , the club would have closed YEARS ago .
I work fairly regularly for fairly serious money , doing stuff that I MOSTLY learned in Folk clubs , so all I am doing when I 'Pay to Sing' at a local club is RE paying what Folk has given me .
To any one who is fortunate enough to get enough audience to be able to book the occasional guest , and NOT charge Floor singers , I say "Good For You!" but there is NO point in having a slanging match because someone else runs a club in a different fashion !

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 03:36 PM

LF: I love the attitude of REPAYING! Good for you.

Breezy: Life here in Rhodesia is great, although I'm moving to rainier climes in the summer.

Blessings
Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 07:24 PM

Best system that I came across was the old Chelmsford Folk Club. Everybody paid on their first visit, if you did a floor spot you were given a voucher for free entry valid for one month. That of course was in the days when a folk club would fill a decent sized hall (and I mean FILL in Chelmsford's glory days).

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM

Lots of constructive comments!

Will split the informative elements off from the argumentative bits - hope that's ok (but will probably fail!).

Suzi Z - yes Mike Peach and his team have done an excellent job creating a nice friendly folk club. I enjoyed my visit early last year.

You charge on guest nights - but did you know that at the brilliant 1970s Dukes Head Folk Club (Addlestone) they managed to book big name guests every three months or so - and still had free entry on those guest nights. This was excellent for bringing the club and folk generally to the attention of a wider audience - perhaps the secret for the excellence of that much lamented club.

Banjiman - false divisions? I think they're real. It seems that there are undoubtedly two (3 Capt Birdeye?) types of folk club - And I'm being careful about bar sessions here, as some are proper folk clubs - but in a public space, where others are closed sessions musically, for drinkers to listen to.

This thread was intended to promote the Singers type folk club (along with those guest clubs where singers are valued for more than being punters who might ask to do a song). Drawing from this: type 1 - 'SIngers Folk Cub' - folk clubs existing for singers.

But the thread has been joined by people seemingly unhappy with singers being viewed any different from punters. ie.they broadly represent a very different sort of club - one existing to provide a 'folk product' for 'Folkal Consumers' - type 2. Here is the clear division. But isn't it a case of attitudes?

I agree with your later paragraph about overlap. What better than doing a Singers' club one night and a guest club the next if everyone in both types of folk circle can respect the difference? Indeed one of our Song Club participants tonight* also supports a particular local Guest Club*.

The problem in my experience living in different parts of England over many decades is the folk clique who see things as a pecking order, therefore looking down on floor singers, Singers Clubs and Singarounds - typically anything/one that's not commercially active. They are still all too common. These are the antagonists - and it's inevitable they will stimulate reaction.

Must add the comment of another of our singers who, in contrast, rarely goes to a guest club. She managed a guest club night recently, but although she enjoyed the guest, added that "he was no better than most of US". This says to me that Clubs that discourage floor singers by attitude, or demanding pennies from a barren purse are missing out on a wealth of folk talent. They may not need the floorsingers, but they are nevertheless restricting the pool of singers their audiences are able to hear.

And Breezy - how can I forget you!

Interested to see your reference to St Albans. Friends who came along to our Wednesday singaround a couple of weeks ago used to run a folk club at the Spotted Cow. Walked past it late last year - looks a real good folky pub still.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 02:39 AM

"Robb Johnson lives in Hove (actually)".

So do I actually

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: LesB
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 03:22 AM

The Bothy Folk Club Southport have, for 42 yrs, let floor singers in for free, but we only have floor singers when we don't have a guest booked. That's usually singers night, guest night, alternating.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 03:46 AM

Thanks Ian

The spotted has never featured as a 'folk' venue in snirbs so your visitors know sod all !

Does this mean I have left you with an indelible impression.

So you've come across tab hunter and that fiddle player he knocks around with, called Paley face, they came to us twice as guests, average !!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 03:59 AM

did I see Ian's name on the spotted cow ad board, or am I dreaming - again

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 05:03 AM

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,PeterC - PM
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 07:24 PM

Best system that I came across was the old Chelmsford Folk Club. Everybody paid on their first visit, if you did a floor spot you were given a voucher for free entry valid for one month. That of course was in the days when a folk club would fill a decent sized hall (and I mean FILL in Chelmsford's glory days.
yes, brilliant system .
can I pick up on the remark in Ian Fyvies post,about the guest not being any better than us .
I heard that sort of comment before,it was made about Nic Jones[who was brilliant as always],the person who made the remark,ran a club in kent,and could just about bash/strum, out three chords.
now maybe Ian Fyvies singer is brilliant[I dont know ],perhaps she does gigs .perhaps the standard of singers is high .
if the guest wasnt any better than the other singers,that is the fault of the organiser who did the booking,or is it,maybe other people liked the guest,but didnt say anything to the organiser ,or just appreciated a good performer with a different repertoire.
the purpose of a guest is not to be necessarily of a higher standard,for example take the Ryburn folk club,the residents are all professional .
Ian Fyvie has made recordings and done many gigs,he is of a high standard ,so the guest is not any better,so what,its not a competition,however good the regulars are,a change is required periodically .
some [not all]floorsingers would benefit from listening to guests,and learning stage craft,unfortunately it seems that those who need to improve,often dont do this,and have an over inflated opinion of their abilty,they stay away on guest nights,they dont learn new material,and dont appear to practice,and often dont listen to other singers.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 05:09 AM

the guest[at Fyvies club] wasnt me.
I rarely travel south of the midlands,just one of my eccentricites .

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 10:54 PM

Breezy - you had me scrathing my head about the Spotted Cow comments and friends who were involved many years ago.

First thought - did I get the pub name wrong - Laughing Cow perhaps? Or, as my friends are veteran folkies, they may have been involved with the SA folk scene before the 'living memory' of current supporters. I remember mentioning the old Dukes Head Folk Club (Addlestone) when I visited nearby Byfleet Club last year. People I spoke to early in the evening at least, didn't know anything about it (well it was the early 1970s!).

On Tab Hunter - Ben Paley; they ran a very nice fortnightly club for a while locally. Have not seen them for a couple of years but hear they go to the Royal Oak at Lewes from time to to time.

Capt Birdseye - I see where you're coming from and I'm not contradicting, more offering an different interpretation.

My overall view is that the gap between singers you'll only find in the Singers' Club, and those on the guest circuit is overblown. There are obvious commercial reasons here to do with the hype etc. that goes on in commercial music and other arts forms across the entertainment spectrum.

Making a guest circuit singer automatically superior to Singers Club singer is fraught with problems because there are really good singers who do not want to "go commercial"; COULD NOT go commercial for various domestic, lifestyle of work; or for less obvious reasons (ideological for example) so simply never wanted to.

Of course the guest circuit singer will probably be a more polished performer because they are going out several times a week in front of an audience. But that's still no reason to say they must be better than a Singers Club singer. There's the freshness factor. Many guest singers are doing an act. Maybe thats inevitable if you enterain for a job.

But an accomplished Singers Club singer can go out on a particu;ar night because they feel like it - no contract - no aggro; and any week they think at the last minute "don't relaly feel like it tonight" they can give it a miss. So its not hard to see how Singers Club singers can outshine various professionals.

On my friend who made the '"no better than us" comment; she was not relating to the floor singers at the guest club. She was relating that guest to singers at our SIngers Club. As to her own singing, she very good with a relaxed voice and plays guitar with feeling. As far as I know has never had ambitions to make money from her music.

By the way Capt Birdeye, did you miss out "If" before my name (last para) or have you actually heard one of the rare recordings I've made; or been to one of my extremely rare gigs (I did a 40 minute set at Raise Your Banners one year)?

Generally, I've never bothered trying to make any sort of living from Folk. Theres a reason several might identify with: if you do it for a living then it becomes a "job" - and I hate work! But I've done all that anyway as semi pro in three successful rock/cover bands whilst holding down a day job.

Lastly - and having said that about the rarity of my songs being recorded, one of my tunes was indeed recorded last night. The venue was just 200 yards from where Martin Carthy was guest at the folk club (we were probably recording while Martin was doing his first set.) The artist? Not me! The town's Brass Band - and they've made a really nice job of it.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM

"On my friend who made the '"no better than us" comment; she was not relating to the floor singers at the guest club. She was relating that guest to singers at our SIngers Club. As to her own singing, she very good with a relaxed voice and plays guitar with feeling. As far as I know has never had ambitions to make money from her music."

Iain,

This whole issue of guests being better than floorsingers (or the other way around) never even enters my head. At KFFC we may not put on floor singers and everyone pays to get in. However, a majority of the "support" act are drawn from those who attend the club..... and they definitely get in free or get expenses if they are travelling any distance when doing these spots. I guess this effectively means that the singers/ players get either a 20 or 40 minute slot once every 18 months or so rather than 1 song each month..... they do have to convince themselves and the club that they are capable of entertaining a paying audience for the duration of their set though.

Some of these people do have ambitions to take their perfrming further and some don't. So I don't see the divisions that you are talking about.... rather a continuum. Some of these support acts have gone on to a main guest slot at the club as well.... as well as putting themselves in the shop window for bookings at other clubs What is wrong with people wanting to take their talent out in front of other people? Why the big hang-up about who is best?

If your floor singer thinks she is as good as the guest she should go out there and get some bookings.... if she wants to.... her comments just aren't relevant if she doesn't want to.

Intersting debate.... I just don't see the gaping chasms that you seem to see though.

Paul

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:10 AM

Increasingly, I read Ian Fyvie's posts, and others like them, with a sinking heart.

There is certainly a need for us to champion the role and value of amateur singers, writers and musicians, but I fail to see why this should also require collateral attacks on those who do it for a living, whether partly or fully.

The truth is that the middle rank of 'working' artists in UK are in trouble. And the chief cause is that this philosophy, which seeks to sideline and even dismiss the input of touring artists, is in the ascendant, at the expense of the 'guest' ethos. It would take far more words that I have space for here to explain why - but, conveniently, the issue of Living Tradition which comes out today does have space, and does in fact contain my argument.

Frankly, you'd have to be one mandolin short of an orchestra not to recognise that there are plenty of brilliant amateur contributors to be found in this land, and that, yes, many are indeed much more talented than some guest artists.

But therefore to set the former above the latter, as Ian and others seem to have some need to do, is to miss some really important points.

Firstly, being a guest artist is not only about playing or singing or writing ability. It's about being able to hold an audience for a whole evening. That means having a big repertoire, and flexibility to tailor your set to the mood of the event. It means being able to deliver a high standard reliably, even in difficult circumstances such as illness or an unhelpful environment. It means being able to communicate in other ways than pure performance, and to own key skills such as sales, promotion, research, media presence, teaching and many other things which the brilliant amateur may, repeat; may, not be so good at.

Now, Ian will probable counter that he knows all this, but none of it means that we need guest artists in the first place.

Well, I would like him to just stop for one moment and ask himself where all these talented non-guests found their music. The days when a majority learned their songs, singing and songwriting from their local elders is long gone.

The vast majority of the people I encounter on my travels happily admit the influence of 'pro' performers, or some other aspect of the 'folk music business.' It may go as far back as Simon and Garfunkle and the 60s stars, or it may be the influence of people they've seen at festivals (possibly at workshops), or maybe it's song collections like Voice of The People - which, again, is a commercially produced product.

If you take all this away, you'll soon confine the 'grass roots' of folk music to an even more isolated ghetto, which without the refreshing wash of new good artists like a tide across the sand will soon become dry and brackish.

And the second key point is that it is the pros and more effective semi-pros who take folk music out of the established folk scene to new places like village halls, arts centres, theatres and other sundry venues, talk about our musical heritage, tell people about folk clubs, and generally promote folk to new ears.

And only the more established and successful artists will be able to make records that will go out to pastures new - through sales and airplay. And only they will get covered in newspapers and tv programmes and other outlets.

The folk scene went into a little torpor back there, and took its eye off the ball. Now it NEEDS the 'business' end - and that's a spectrum, right through from the purely amateur, through people like me (who plough a lone and difficult furrow) to the small group of 'successful' acts who manage to pay the mortgage.

So PLEASE can we have less of this continuous insidious suggestion that all guest artists are making a mint out of folk music, and that commercialism is raping the tradition?

Last night there was a good turn-out of West Yorkshire guests at Jon Boden and the Remnant Kings gig in Leeds (plus Damien Barber and Mike Wilson, and John Smith - in a rock venue). The talk was of how hard that man (and his band) works, and how gruelling life is even for the tiny minority who have reached a point where they can afford some professional help. Almost no-one is making a good living - trust me.

Yes, a few agents may take advantage every now and then, but all the folk biz people I know, including agents, record company bosses, magazine editors and the rest, earn - like us musicians - a salary that's a small fraction of those enjoyed by most amateur folk enthusiasts.

So. Where does this fit with the tread title?

Well it's common sense to say that of course there's a place for singers to get in free if that's what the group agree.

But to take that one stage further and imply some sort of moral high ground for so doing is wrong.

It's important to recognise the value of things, not the price. 'Free' doesn't necessarily mean 'better.'

By all means avoid concerts if you don't like them and don't want to pay. But don't suggest
that folk music doesn't need them.

The mouth-to-ear process has been swamped by 20th century, and can no longer keep the tradition alive on its own.

The working artist has an important role to play today - as indeed he always did.

Tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:39 AM

excellent post, Tom.
yes Ian Fyvie,I know who you are,and your recordings[Eaves dropper],I remember you before that too,at Croydon Folk club., [ wednesday at the Waddon]as a floorsinger .
I have been around a long time .,and like the Elephant have along memory,now what happened to Singing Robin .

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:35 AM

Never mind all of that, Tom....please answer the question!

Around your area where can Ian Fyvie enjoy a great evening of great folk music without having to dip his hands into his pockets?

:-)

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:43 PM

Ian Fyvie wrote:



So what's not to like? The venue is a short bus ride from where you live and the artist in question was Paul Downes.

Your reaction?

Decent enough indeed to agree to travel a great distance to a venue where he knew that his fee would only be what was raised by a collection. And this is someone whose income is derived from the pay club circuit you despise so much.

And he's not the only "big name" to fly in the face of your apparent obsession with money and status. In this thread and elsewhere there are countless examples of professional singers who help to run clubs and festivals and turn up unexpectedly to do floor spots. Martin Carthy epitomises this ethos, being well known for his generosity to organisers of countless clubs in not demanding outlandish fees.

So, it's not about money is it? You could have seen Paul for the price of your bus fare. So was it because you would only have got to sing one song? I'm one of the people who help to run the monthly session and I only get one song because there are so many other floor singers to fit in - and unlike you, don't run three sessions a week.

Luckily we have a wealth of floor singers - some of whom are of a really high standard - who DO think it's worth getting their guitars out, even if it's only for one song, and DON'T mind putting money in the collection.

If you change your mind, come and see Ben Paley & Tab Hunter next month - I'll even defray your expenses by buying you a pint...

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:11 AM

Apologies - Ian's quotes are missing from the above post. In trying to highlight some text in bold type or italics I seem to have hit a wrong key. (Advice on how to do this when posting would be most welcome.)

My post should have read as follows:



Ian Fyvie wrote:

"I could go a session tomorrow night and get one floorsong, and see a well known artist for nothing..."

So what's not to like? The venue is a short bus ride from where you live and the artist in question was Paul Downes.

Your reaction?

"No thanks! - not worth getting the guitar out for (no offence to the artist - who's a decent bloke)"


Decent enough indeed to agree to travel a great distance to a venue where he knew that his fee would only be what was raised by a collection. And this is someone whose income is derived from the pay club circuit you despise so much.

And he's not the only "big name" to fly in the face of your apparent obsession with money and status. In this thread and elsewhere there are countless examples of professional singers who help to run clubs and festivals and turn up unexpectedly to do floor spots. Martin Carthy epitomises this ethos, being well known for his generosity to organisers of countless clubs in not demanding outlandish fees.

So, it's not about money is it? You could have seen Paul for the price of your bus fare. So was it because you would only have got to sing one song? I'm one of the people who help to run the monthly session and I only get one song because there are so many other floor singers to fit in - and unlike you, don't run three sessions a week.

Luckily we have a wealth of floor singers - some of whom are of a really high standard - who DO think it's worth getting their guitars out, even if it's only for one song, and DON'T mind putting money in the collection.

If you change your mind, come and see Ben Paley & Tab Hunter next month - I'll even defray your expenses by buying you a pint...

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:29 AM

Banjiman - Sorry to go double negative but I probably don't disagree with most of your views.

Of course its a continuum. I take issue primarily with those who deny this - ie. those who see approved floor singers or residents of Guest clubs as superior to those of us very happy with Singers clubs. I take issue with those who see folk as a pecking order which you graduate up as an informal career path; and who deny that Singers Club singers can be any good unless they also do bookings.

The main argument extends to the 'Singers club singers v Guests at Payclubs' arena also. That's because the number of singers and songwriters around Singers clubs that are excellent; and the number of guests doing the rounds who really are not more than adequate.

Lets make it clear that by adequate I mean are able to do a reasonable guest night, give the punters what they expect. I'm not saying there are bad guests. From what my colleague said recently "To be quite honest, (the guest) was no better than most of us": it means most of us could happily do a guest spot also, provided of course we had the song quantity for a normal booked evening.

I see no reason however why any of us should want to join the Guest Club ladder if we're happy singing in a SIngers" Club and happy making albums direct for the public. Climbing up the greasy Guest Club pole is really submitting to a superfluous 'Middle Man'. And middle men normally have biases, favourites and cronies cluttering up the process.

Briefly on support singers and your folk club - you have a very intersting and unusual model. The snag I would suspect is that it's not very flexible.

Tom Bliss - check my wording and you'll find most of what I say is positive and encouraging. This thread was intended to be 100% positive - to let singers know where they can go along and sing without paying. I've no regrets about the debate that has ensued. It's good. Though unexpected, it is excellent and generally well argued.

Criticism of professionals? - of course this could be implied but that is because demening of Singers club singers seems widespread among guest club supporters.

By pointing out that singers from Singers clubs are often just as good as guest circuit singers, the implications are that we are belittling Pros. It's a perception derived from Guest Club supporters being unable to accept that Singers considered bottom in their pecking order can be as good as their professional heroes.

Where I'm simply levelling up; the Old Guard see it as an attempt to level pro singers down. This response to my championing Singers Club singers is actually the negative - and worrying aspect.

Capt Birdseye - quick one... you've got the wrong person!!

Stuart - I'm trying to disect your message. Are you saying I should be over the moon at the chance to be a punter for your guest, be happy with one song; and only have to pay out for a jug collection and bus ticket?

You need to grasp I'm a singer-songwriter more than happy to share my songs with similar singer-songwriters and traditional singers in a relaxed atmosphere. I do not need to be one of a mass of floorsingers queuing for their one song and the chance to see a guest on-the-cheap, however good that guest is. As I said in the thread you picked up my quote from originally: one song - it really isn't worth my while getting my guitar out.

I enjoyed Paul Downs singing when he called into our singarounds a few years back. I also liked hearing Tab Hunter and Ben Paley at their singaround club - also a few years back. These are good environments to enjoy anyones music and share yours. But going somewhere to see a guest without doing two or three songs myself - really isn't my scene.

I have absolutely no folk heroes and go to folk clubs purely to participate and hear others.

I must add I nevetheless respect some on the Pro folk scene such as Paul for the work they've done. There are many unsung heroes too. But implying I should have gone to see Paul because of his contribution to the folk scene actually does Paul a disservice IMHO.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:52 AM

Ian,

So if you were offered a paid booking at a guest club what would you do?

Have you ever done a paid or unpaid gig where you were the main entertainment for the evening?

If I read your post correctly you do produce and sell CDs?

Whose this superfluous 'Middle Man'.... do you mean people who put in the effort to organise clubs for others (guests or floor singers) to sing at?

So many questions!

Paul

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 05:29 AM

Well Ian I have read your posts again, and I'm afraid i still come away with the same impression.

"Guest Club supporters being unable to accept that Singers considered bottom in their pecking order can be as good as their professional heroes"

Sorry, I'm not picking this up anywhere. As I said, the fact that there are plenty of non-guest musicians that are better than some guests is so obvious to anyone who visits clubs as to never need saying, which is why you seldom hear it said. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone demean singers clubs per se. There is quite a lot of criticism of the few poorly-prepared or otherwise less able singers (not from me, natch), but to interpret that as some sort of attack on singers clubs in general is almost verging on the edge of a zone which has a phenomenon on the very far side of it called paranoia.

Don't forget that standards are relative. When you and your chums note a 'guest doing the rounds who really is not more than adequate' perhaps yours is the minority view. You may just not like that style, but others may love it - and it's best always to take this into account.

No, no-one is demeaning singers nights, just pointing out that they are slowly taking over from guest nights, and suggesting where this may lead. Do you see the difference?

And I'm not sure why you feel that the world is suggesting that all singers should aspire to some ladder-climbing exercise towards becoming guests. Yes people do suggest that everyone should strive to improve for their own sake and the sake of their listeners, and yes, I say it's important that a ladder should exist for the reasons I've given, but no-one's suggesting everyone should climb it. That would be just stupid!

I, and others who say similar things, are merely trying to point out the value of guests and guest nights to the folk scene overall, which is more subtle than it might at first appear.

I don't know where you learned to write and perform 'folk-style' songs, but I learned at the feet of some fantastic folk musicians (some amateur, but mostly pro - because pound for pound, pros do tend to be 'better' because they need to be). And I still love to go and watch Vin or Jez or Steves T or Kn, or any number of others, and remind myself how far I have yet to go in my own writing. I'm rather surprised that you don't.

I'm even more surprised to hear that you have absolutely no folk heroes. Is there really no working artist that you admire more than yourself? Or is that just because you seldom go to see other writers so haven't encountered any really good ones yet?

You must indeed be a mighty writer yourself (Gentle joshing here, ok? :-), and I look forward to hearing your stuff! You'll probably become yet one more of my own heroes, of which I have a couple of hundred already.

I too am a writer, but that doesn't mean I'm not delighted to be able to go and watch someone else (or a room full) without sounding a note myself. Ok, I have plenty of outlets, but I knew from an early stage, before I turned pro, that I could, if I wanted, get a bigger reaction with just one of my songs than with four. Less can be more. And I love to sit and listen too.

All that said, I understand and support your position of not being interested in guest nights. That's your choice. I merely want you to understand that if everyone felt the way you do (and people of your opinion are in fact winning the argument here, by the way) we'd eventually loose something of value. (I've already lost a wonderful career precisely because of it).

Tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:05 AM

Ah - found you on myspace. Nice songs. T

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:31 AM

Ian,

When you say, "But going somewhere to see a guest without doing two or three songs myself - really isn't my scene." can't you see how arrogant that sounds? Presumably, when you have featured guests at your club you cut short their time so that you can play at least three songs. Do you extend that right to all of your floor singers?

Let's suppose you got "a mass of floorsingers queueing up" at your club to see your guest and all of them want to play. Would you tell them it's not worth staying, because they'd only get one song, and some of them wouldn't get the chance to play at all?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM

Tom - thanks for your comments on my songs.

Thanks also for a posting that has lots of points - many of which I go along with to a degrees greater and lesser - but would defer a more detailed response here as I have to get some sleep this afternoon (doing Mudcat to long last night???).

Banjiman - yes I have a done a small number of bookings where I was the guest for the evening. I don't go looking for Folk Club / Festival bookings but I have been asked to do spots at a couple of festivals over the years (which I turned down because of transport problems) and was a concert guest at a Raise Your Banners (Sheffield) weekend in the 1990s.

I do occasional spots for pressure groups and was main support for Will Kaufman last year when he brought his Woody Guthrie show to Lewes.

Not being commercially minded I'm getting a bit woried about writing a folk CV here - not my intention. Hope you don't mind if I come back to your other questions later for the same reason as above.

Stuart - probably does sound arrogant but the point is I go to folk club to share music - two or three more songs - with 8 or 9 other singers, and any listeners who like to come along. I'm not a consumer of Folk Music in the sense of paying money to see a Folk Guest.

I can't see anything wrong with that - just as I can't see no problem with not purchasing biological washing powder in the supermarket - nothing against the product - just not one I buy.

On guests at our folk club - yes we tried every few months for a while - had some excellent nights. But quite a few regular singers gave the guest nights a miss. So we're not keen as a club on guest nights and they will be fewer in the future. And I didn't like cutting singers down to one or two songs!

Apologies for a briefer than normal reply.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

Oops - some mistakes I missed above!

Any more venues where singers get in free?

Ian

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Indrani Ananda
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:41 PM

Why can't you people grasp the point that Ian's trying to explain? The gulf between guests and floor-singers is difficult to span without luck and the "who-you-know" factor. You know about the friends on MySpace? Well in the folk idiom the friends are organisers. If they like your material then you're in! The rest of us headbang, some even pay for this privilege.

                  Guests tour and get paid: good or mediocre, all they need is 'Hype' - then bums will fill seats. So the guest will find an audience and receive a good dose of job satisfaction at the same time.

                   A floor-singer, on the other hand, will practise in his lonely garret then go to his local club, hoping all the while that his efforts have not been in vain, and his guitar will indeed be called upon to impart its dulcet tones to appreciative ears instead of languishing unsung in the darkness of his guitar case. If he has to pay to sing one of his well-worn warm-up songs with no chance of any more to follow, how can people asses the scope of his talent?

                  This is no better than vanity publishing - how can a singer feel worthwhile when he has had to buy his spot and not been asked on merit? When I go to a club I want to be appreciated for what I do after all the effort of song learning and practise - not trot along there to sit like a good little doggie all night watching the "masters" croon.

                   If you are hustled off after one song, you will rarely ever be asked to do a more lengthy session because the organisers cannot possibly know, on the strength of one song, what else you can offer; and I'm afraid it's not talent you are judged on, but "How well you go down"! I've seen brilliant people who write the most amazing things struggling in the floor-singer mould. Now if they were to be hyped by the media ............

                   If every folk club in every pub the whole world over charged a nominal fee for everyone, we'd understand it would be 'to pay for the room'; but if it were to pay for some overblown guest who's usually similar to or no better than people I know, I may as well stay at home and download their overhyped CDs free off the Internet.

                   I would neither expect nor force people to pay to listen to me - I have music to give, not to sell - ie. a vocation, not a fast buck machine.


                                                    Indrani.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009!!
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:41 PM

A little bit more time after the Singaround to pick up on earlier points....

Tom - "Guest Club supporters being unable to accept that Singers considered bottom in their pecking order can be as good as their professional heroes".

Sadly I have picked up this attitude from several "Folk Scenes". I don't for a minute want to portray every Guest Club as suffering this but if I hinted at few clubs not far from here - many would know exactly which ones I meant*.

More widely, I've heard similar stories from an excellent singer in "Yorkshire" (not going to zoom in more than that) who has given up supporting any Guest Club in his area and is using his singing talents in nursing homes only. Their (the Folk Clubs) loss.

And Tom - Sorry! - you may not like this, but I heard the story of the guest who was "no better than most of us" from a another singer who I walked up with to Tuesday's singaround with (not a Mudcatter yet - but I'm trying to persuade her).

Interesting that you say singers nights are taking over from Guest nights. Like all change there will be casualties. The end result, though, should be to the benefit of Folk longterm as it will undermine the elites which I fervently maintain have stifled new talent since the 1970s and now getting their payback (a good parallel here is the former Soviet Union where the Old Guard clung to power and refused to allow younger generations access to power - so their dream died with them).

And where did I learn to write folk style songs? A very different arena to you!

As brief as I can be... I learnt to write songs in my first pop band as a teenager. Rewind a few years earlier I was another apprentice punter at school believing that music "Stars" were born - and from a different planet to the likes of us on the Council Estate; attending secondary school.

Then suddenly my next door neighbour's group released a record and reached number 4 in the UK pop charts. The mystique the powers-that-be peddled about looking up to your betters was smashed. Anyone can do it!

I joined a teenage Scout Hut group and met a brilliant Scots lad who could write an instant song from a newspaper headline. We started co-writing and before long I was writing whole songs myself.

Both these examples were simply a demystifying process - and what I'm doing in the folk scene right now is demystifying the dominant theme which is that only Guests, Residents and approved floor singers are good, anyone else is rubbish.

Oh yes - pop to folk. I didn't actually know about folk clubs for many years but found I was writing songs at work (about work) in a grotty factory - song of rhythms I knew were not suitable for my pop bands. When I lost my job I discovered the local folk club - and found people singing and playing in the rhythms I had been writing in! The rest is history... as they say.

And Banjiman - again not a complete answer (apols!) but - no I don't make CDs. But having recently retired I am working on getting as many of my songs as possible recorded and made available on CD or website.

On the middleman quote - Guest Club organisers are different things to different groups.

"people who put in the effort to organise clubs for others (guests or floor singers) to sing at?"

Dead right - in one context. Many (though not all by any means) are performing this function for the benefit of guest and floor singers. But for a singer / singer-songwriter whose face doesn't fit, these organisers' clubs are an inefficient route to travel along to get your singing or songs to a wider audience. I gave upon this route as long ago as 1980 (luckily!). What I said in the earlier posting hold firm *in this context*.

If you're not a jolly middleclass teacher type then you will see an endless stream of those who are breezing in, getting floorspots ahead of you, becoming resident and getting the junior guest spots ahead of you.

I saw through this bias early enough to realise its best to ignore these types and their pecking orders and make your own folk scene.

And Indrani - vanity singing is when you buy a floor spot? Excellent!

*wouldn't name any of these clubs of course - but will name a Guest club that's a shining example of how guest clubs should be run: Lewes Saturday Club.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Catawauling Beefeater
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 11:57 PM

Here we go again! The question of door fees or floor fees; so many threads on Mudcat seem to degenerate into this kind of debate. If you don't pay but want to sing, it should be 'first come, first go'; if you are charged, then by hook or by crook you damwell will sing - you've bought your plot of floor for the evening. And if any overrated guest usurps your go you should demand double at the next singaround. If the landlord is robbing you for some antechamber of a room when his bar is sparse, blow him out and move on.
             I'd definitely pay if it guaranteed me a decent spot, but then again I'd have to pay the audience to sit still and listen because no-one's heard of me. That's not my fault, though. There are divers reasons for this:
                              Not born in the right bed;
                              Not married to the right (famous) person;
                              Not knowing the right people;
                              Not having money to buy my way in;
                              Not having the right kind of Daddy.
               On one side there are people like me willing to pay to sing so that their efforts are not wasted and their existence will have been brought to someone's attention; and on the other side you have a person like Fyvie Mc.Sporran who won't pay on principle, but who goes out of his way blowing his own trumpet as to which famous folkie he's been a few yards down the road from whilst recording brass bands.
                It's a folky old world!!!
                              
                                                                      Catawauling Beefeater

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 04:59 AM

"Dead right - in one context. Many (though not all by any means) are performing this function for the benefit of guest and floor singers. But for a singer / singer-songwriter whose face doesn't fit, these organisers' clubs are an inefficient route to travel along to get your singing or songs to a wider audience. I gave upon this route as long ago as 1980 (luckily!). What I said in the earlier posting hold firm *in this context*."

If you've decided this is not the route for you, whay are you knocking it so heavily?

I'm really stumped how to respond to the last 3 posts. You are describing a world I just don't recognise. For myself as a solo singer/ banjo player, I'm quite happy at singarounds and the odd floor spot. Quite frankly, that is my level, I'm competent but nothing special.... and I enjoy this for what it is.

I also play as part of a 4 piece band with 3 very talented ladies (they all sing, are multi- instrumentalits and write good songs and have an ear for arrangement of trad songs and others), we're starting to get pretty regular bookings, we only started out last June. I also play as a backing twanger for my wife who gets pretty regular paid gigs in folk clubs, at festivals and elsewhere. Her first "main guest" folk club booking was a year ago. We have mini-tours of Scotland and the Southeast booked for later this year. (I'll put up the gig list if anyone is interested)

Now, none of the acts that I play with or am involved with are probably ever going to be the best known in the folk world or else where but they do get regular opportunities to play/ sing in front of people (which I think is what the 3 posts above are complaining they don't get enough of).

Why is this? Well it is partly talent (not neccersarily mine, see above!) but it is more about the hard work we are prepared to put in. We get paid for some of what we do......but by no means all, for me personally, it is at best a self funding hobby. (The missus does a lot better!)

I could go on, but my main point here is that you don't need to:

                     be born in the right bed;
                     be married to the right (famous) person;
                     know the right people;
                     have money to buy my your in;
                     have the right kind of Daddy.

If you want to get your music "out there" you can't wait for people to offer you a longer slot based on what you do at a singaround or as a floor singer (though it does help if you can make an impact with one or two songs).... you have to make your own opportunities. I'm more than happy to share what else we have done if anyone is interested.

With another hat on (club organiser) I'm always surprised that people get upset with me for not offering them a support or guest slot.... they just assume that I know they want one when often they have often not even asked! Work that one out.

The opportunities to get your music heard are all around.... if this is important to you why not expend your energy looking for these opportunities rather than complaining that the world is stacked against you? It really isn't..... but no one said it was going to be easy either!

I still think floor singers shopuld pay to get into guest clubs.... we do if we're going somewhere to do a floor spot. Get to see some great guests as well.

Paul Arrowsmith

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: LesB
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:11 AM

I am sorry my little contribution is not more constructive (I did make a comment earlier that was answering the origional question) but my feeling is that this thread has changed into a thread about egotists with chips on shoulders.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:53 AM

"my feeling is that this thread has changed into a thread about egotists with chips on shoulders"

I couldn't agree with you more, Les.

The sad thing about this whole sorry debate is that folks like Indira and Ian seem to be consistently missing one important point.

Let's examine who is in the room...

1. Yourselves (the floor singers who desperately wants to play up to three songs to someone else's audience and get in free)

2. Those horrible bastard organisers who are denying you what you consider your basic human rights

3. The overblown and overhyped narcissist guests who are getting paid for being there (the cads!)

Who else? Have we forgotten anyone?

How about....

4. The audience who have come to see the guest (and paid good money with that in mind)

Remember them?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:24 AM

Ian Fyvie

but will name a Guest club that's a shining example of how guest clubs should be run: Lewes Saturday Club.

Er, thanks Ian, I think. It's nice to get a compliment but we'd rather not be singled out as superior to all the other hardworking club organisers in the area or around the country for that matter.

I have watched this thread with increasing sadness because it has always been my belief that one of the joys of the folk scene is that there are no divides between the audience member who simply sits and listens in a singaround to the "superstar" who can fill the Albert Hall. They are all part of the same family. It seems I was deluding myself.

Earlier you said -

It seems that there are undoubtedly two (3 Capt Birdeye?) types of folk club

I gather there are around 400 folk clubs in the country so I suspect there are probably 400 types of club and all of them are the right way of doing it. Just because someone else does it a different way from you doesn't make them wrong.

Diversity is good. You pays your money (or not) and takes your choice.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:24 AM

"Buying your floor spot" I think I've heard it all now!
As I said somewhere above that as far as I am aware the majority of folk clubs in the East Midlands charge everyone coming in through the door. I am quite happy to pay as I have come to visit the club and listen to that evening's guest or on a singer's night join in with the others present. If I get asked to do a song fine; if not no matter my prime intention was to visit the club.
This appears to be the attitude with those visiting the club I help to run as they too appreciate that the door charge is there to pay the guest. Since the majority of the guests booked at our club are of the song carrier variety as opposed to some overblown superstar (like who?)the majority of their fee will do little more than cover their transport costs so they are not exactly making a killing out of the audience (who include singers, musicians, storytellers and committee).
It is also an unfortunate aspect that often the more precious on is about getting a floor spot the lesser the talent.
"Buying your floor spot" I'll metion that one when our club meets again on 5th April - it'll get a bigger laugh than any of my jokes!!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:31 AM

"Buying your floor spot"

Excellent more revenue for the club (if they do floor spots). £5 for normal audience £10 guarantees you a 1 song floor spot, £25 for 2 songs. For £250 you get the entire night...... you might be singing to yourself but who cares!

We might be on to something here!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:45 AM

Ian and Indrani, I can see you have some local and personal reasons for feeling as you do. I'm trying to address a wide view, so can only reiterate all my points above, and ask you to see them on that scale.

I had massive support from the clubs around West Yorkshire from my very first visit, but certainly it's hard to get work if you can't visit to present your songs in person (I'm not sure if that's actually what you want or not), and you do have to knock on some doors for a long time before they're opened (and I have the raw knuckles to prove it).

I actually have much the same musical background as you, but when I dived into folk from pop (knowing no-one) I did two things: First, I listened to what was going down in clubs, and learned how the scene worked, then honed my 'product' to fit (call it marketing or just plain good manners - I was still writing from the heart), and second, I worked very very very hard (any 'hype' has been the fruit of my own effort - as it usually is), I made friends with everyone I met, and finally I did my best to wow at every opportunity (even if I only got one song).

If you can't see what UK guest artists bring to UK culture so be it. I just hope you don't manage to convert too many people to your anarchist creed, because too many good people (artists, organisers and more) would be up against the wall.

Tom

PS Beefeater - I'm not sure to what extent, if any, you're being ironic.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:25 AM

Ian - You still haven't dealt with the question of how you would manage your club if it became really popular and attracted huge numbers of singers. Tell them not to bother because they'd only get one song, and most of them would get to sing at all?

If, as you say, the ideal number is 8 or 9, why don't you take it in turns to sing in each other's living rooms and save yourself the hassle of organising public performances?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Marje
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:52 AM

I can't see why there's such hostility to the idea of singers getting together to sing, with no money changing hands. Musicians do this at pub sessions all the time, often with some singing too, and no one berates them for not booking paid guests.

In most pub sessions, there is an optimum number of (maybe) somewhere between 7 and 14, and this will tend to find its own level, being controlled by the space available and the wishes of the musicians/singers. Once a session becomes too crowded and over-subscribed, someone may set up another one- say for Irish music, or strictly-no-singers, or singers-only.

Sure, you could do it in your living room, but the bar arrangements, parking etc could become complicated. Many people wouldn't want to advertise their living room as a venue for an open session, and other members of the household might find it a bit of an intrusion. Also, there's then no opportunity for the casual pub-goers and passers-by to have a listen-in as informal audience members.

Open, free sessions/singarounds and concert-style clubs with paid guests are simply two different ways of presenting and enjoying folk music. I like both and go to both. Some people only like one or the other - I think that's their loss, but they have a perfect right to pick the setting that they enjoy. Surely there's room for both these formats, and more besides?

Marje

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:59 AM

"I can't see why there's such hostility to the idea of singers getting together to sing, with no money changing hands. Musicians do this at pub sessions all the time, often with some singing too, and no one berates them for not booking paid guests."

Marje,

Perception is a funny thing. I'd seen the hostility on the thread as an attack on paid guests/ pay clubs by those who think ONLY free, informal singaounds are acceptable! I can't really see an attack the other way.... just defence!

I'm with you, I enjoy both.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:21 AM

GASTROPOD.There are three different kinds of clubs,concert clubsthat nevere have singers nights,singarounds that dont book guests,and folk clubs that book guests but periodically have singers nights .

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:37 AM

I bow to your superior wisdom, Captain.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:25 AM

Any singers coming to hear, listen, marvel or just watch and fantasize me tonight please pay to get in as I do not want the Orpington Folk Club at the Liberal club Station road, - wots going to ne blocked, - Orpington , Norf Kent   to make a loss, come to that neither do I.

You can also buy me a drink as tonight I have a driver, and a putter, well the singing ref an Moses to be precise

Saturday night you can come for free to the Duke of Clarence in Luton cos the landlord is paying and singers ar welcome, P A provided

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,tom bliss
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:26 AM

thanks for that, Paul. i'm at the boatyard varnishing my mast and checked in on my phone while it dried.

marge - PLEASE read my posts again. I've taken pains to avoid anyony jumping to that very concusion.

Thankyou. now read Ian's posts again.

See what I mean?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:44 AM

Captain,
       There is a fourth. Those that ALWAYS present guest artists and have room for residents and floor spots.
                                                   Yours,
                                                   John

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM

"i'm at the boatyard varnishing my mast"

The mind boggles!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 03:28 PM

A quick bit of Mudcat before I have an even quicker bite to eat before going to the singaround... apols to anyone who's point isn't picked up for the minute.

Tom Bliss - perhaps you have the key - Local Difficulties.

In some areas there is a history of cliquery - others sometimes for just a while, if you're lucky - none.

My experience extends only to three parts of England. In only one of these did I find it particularly bad. So you could argue I'm setting up an ideal Type for my argument (see Sociology theory). But it was evident in all there areas to some degree. My experience, as I've mentioned previously, has been endorsed by othe people living in different areas.

Live and let live - ideally! But you'll see from various threads that some DO see Guest clubs as superior - and some even deny Singers Clubs "CLUB" status. There is snobery in the folk scene - Emperor's New Clothes in some people's eyes?

I have to end for the minute but I want to answer any direct qestions.

Brief two?

Stuart - Marje has the answers - more, smaller sessions. As you know, we already peractice what we preach by running three small singarounds. If

Snail - only one of clubs with hard working members in the area? I wasn't compementing hard working organisers, I was complementing Lewes Folk Club policy re. welcoming all floor singers. I don't honestly think all clubs in our area welcome all floor singers - do you?

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 10:45 PM

Back for another bite after the SIngaround (lovely atmosphere - and it wasn't just me and a mirror!)

Banjiman - have to pick up on your sentence on perception.

Our thread is here to promote singers' clubs and guest clubs where singers are appreciated as valid artists and contributors to the evening - so don't get charged - as singing Punters.

Postings 1-12 are convering information and helpful comment as one would expect from this thread. Breezy's comment (13) is the first that raises contention - as follows:

"if you expect all floor singers to enter a folk club for free then how the hell is the club going to grow and survive

I find this attitude very selfish.

just stick to the sessions".

DaveS through to Twickfolk (17) keep the pot boiling.

Breezy's solution is to ask Guest Clubs which don't charge floor singers how they do it - But that's not the point.

The verbal aggression started from the corner representing Guest Clubs - NOT the other way around.

But I love a good argument so lets congratulate CBeefeater's extremely perceptive comment "buying a floorspot" - couldn't agree more ("its the economy stupid" said someone in the Bush Administration I believe). Unless you're a singing Punter then that's what it seems to be all about; buy a spot to get yourself known in the Guest Club hierachy.

Which knits neatly to my close for this early hour.

Twickfolk and supporters - many of us don't actually go to Folk Clubs to support a guest or please a media hype indoctrinated audience, we actually go, believe it or not, to share folk songs with like minded people (some do both).

We do not need professional folk singers to show us how to sing. And pros who drop in often say they enjoy playing at sessions like ours infinitely more than doing a paying audience.   

So you're welcome to the pecking order of the commercial folk scene - when visiting your area I will always head for the Staines singaround, or similar, where I will have a far better time than consuming the most famous folk singer in the land a few miles down the road.

This thread is simply dedicated to others seeking out singarounds/singers' clubs.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 04:41 AM

If I had not seen and heard the likes of Paul Simon, the Watersons, Alex campbell, Martin Carthy Bob Dylan , Peter Paul and Mary, and latterly All the present 'main attractions ' both from home and abroad I would not have been doing the homework required so I paid to see and hear them and still would and do.

If you dont go because you are asked to pay admission then maybe it is you who are being the selfish one.

Surely we all can do with advice from proper singers and performers, not to could possibly make one sound arrogant if you say 'We dont need help' I learned about the effects of cheese and bananas from Martin Carthy then had other 'real' singers confirm his advice.

If one is offered a paid gig or the chance to attend a session I think I know where I would go, and possibly most others too even if the gig was going to be one from hell .

For 'like minded' dare I add 'like narrow minded' and please keep out of sight and mind of Jo Public as it is probably you who are giving the 'folk' world any thing but adverse P R

As to paying to sing then thats what singers clubs are already doing but non singers are welcome as well.

I do so like what Twick folk says. 'Hear hear' I say.

When's Chuck B coming, can I book a floor spot please ?   



This does not stop you from going to the Staines singaround and btw how are Barry and Geraldine these days and its because of limited funds that they ended booking minor guests maybe !?

Then there's the Herga singers club on Mondays too, but you would not want to pay £2 to come on in to one of the oldest clubs in the land, 46 years this month, Pinner Green social club Harrow

Tonight even

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 04:57 AM

Come on Ian, the whole point of this thread was to knock Guest clubs who think that all audience members (including those that do floor spots) should pay.

I think it makes for an interesting debate.... but come on, be honest about your motives here!

There is an element of people who have contributed to this thread who have found that the Guest club system has not met their needs.... i.e. they haven't for whatever reason managed to get on the guest circuit (when from their postings it looks like they wanted too!) who have therefore decided these clubs are a BAD thing..... and they are going to let us all know this!

I don't see anyone on the Guest Club side of the debate saying that singarounds shouldn't happen (and most confess to enjoying them) ..... whereas there do seem to be a number of people who have huge hang ups about pay clubs and try and tar them with a "corporate" brush. I think you'll find they are pretty much all cottage industries actually!

Why the attempt to undermine this part of the folk movement?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 05:15 AM

Ian

I'm not sure I'm achieving anything useful in continuing this but perhaps i should just say I'm glad that you promote a 'live and let live' approach, it's just unfortunate that you then immediately undermine it by seeming again to attack the whole guest ethos - when most of the rest of us would recognise that, wherever our particular interests and enthusiasms lie, the UK folk scene is founded on a symbiotic yin/yang relationship between working and non-working musicians, and both elements need the other if they are to survive in the wondrous form into which the scene has evolved.

You did not start the thread with any sniping at working musicians, organisers or listeners, but a resentment towards them pervades most of your posts on Mudcat, and frequently breaks through, as it has again just now.

To suggest that there is some kind of plot to shut amateur artists out leaves you open to allegations of sour grapes, as I'm sure you realise. Guest artists are booked because the organisers and their audiences think they are good, and they have every right so to do. Full stop.

This phrase "many of us don't actually go to Folk Clubs to support a guest or please a media hype indoctrinated audience" is an insult to the folk community. Paying audiences are usually very discerning, and resistance to hype - of which there is very very little in the folk world - (unless you count a short CD review in a local A5 folk magazine as 'hype' in which case there really is no hope for you)!

What you are failing to accept is that the guest/singer system exists because people wanted, and still want it to. It was created democratically, not by some Machiavellian plot - and it's the backbone of the whole UK folk scene. Club organisers book guests because their members want them to. They appreciate what a visiting artist can bring in terms of material, arrangement ideas and just a darn good evening's entertainment.

So I say again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you preferring not to patronise guest nights, and choosing to champion free events and amateur expertise - because it's very important that people always do.

But there is a LOT wrong with you larding you argument with snide snipes at working musicians very-hard-working organisers, and innocent audiences who happen to like to sit and listen to a bit of quality music and are prepared to pay for it (heck they 'd appreciate listening to your songs if you gave yourself a chance by working with the system instead of railing against it).

As for people objecting to you calling your gathering a 'club' - well I'm surprised, but the truth is that the number of gatherings which use that word to describe some sort of guest/singer arrangement outnumbers those who use it for 'singers only' or 'guests only' arrangements by two to one. So again, that's democracy for you.

It would, as I've said many times, be MUCH better for the folk scene if we had three definitive words to describe each of our three basic types of event: Singers only, Guest/singers, and Concerts only. It would avoid a massive amount of confusion disappointment and resentment, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Meanwhile, we should all try to grope towards a consensus on language.

The other point that you may need to consider is, (and I'm not defending this), that established guest clubs near you may object to you 'parking your tanks on their lawn' and further confusing the 'folk offer' by seeming to promote guests (which is what their understanding of the word 'Club' means - as it does to a vast majority in the UK), when you are actually running a small participatory Session. They are wrong, of course - club can and does mean just a small session. but if you are as outspoken in your contempt for them in real life as you are here on Mudcat I could understand why there might be a certain amount of resentment and even door-closing in your general direction.

Tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 05:22 AM

If anyone wants to experience the reasons why Ian Fyvie and Indrani Andana place themselves at the same level as all the overhyped and overblown guest 'stars' who play at places like TwickFolk you can experience their songs at the link below.

http://www.myspace.com/fyviesfolk

where they proclaim the benefits of "Folk Song Clubs run on fairness ethic"

A mighty wind is indeed blowing down on the South Coast of England.

TwickFolk (Folk Song Club run on artistry ethic)

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 08:07 AM

TwickFolk,thankyou.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM

Ian Fyvie

I was complementing Lewes Folk Club policy re. welcoming all floor singers. I don't honestly think all clubs in our area welcome all floor singers - do you?

Every folk club is run in exactly the same way - however the organisers want to run it. As a result, every folk club is different, hence my comment about there being 400 types of club which may or may not fit into three broad categories. Every club is independant; they aren't franchised. You can't buy a standard pack that tells you how to run a Type B Folk Club like you can for making your will, conveyancing your house sale or finalising your divorce.

You do it your own way. Twickfolk does it his way, you do it your way and all points in between and beyond. Everybody is right. This is a good thing because it appeals to a wider audience. The existence of one sort of club has no detrimental effect on any other sort in fact, they are all necessary. All tastes are catered for. There is no problem here.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:37 PM

Thanks for today's comments.

Twickfolk - I didn't expect to be thanking you re. reference to our Myspace site.

The bit that's missing, for space / trying to be concise reasons is a bit of detail about the origins of Singarounds here. I was reminded of the point when reading Tom's Living Tradition article (at last!) monday morning.

The folk environment we found in the late 1970s was pretty much as some of the themes (Hands up!) I keep refering to - in various threads. There were good organisers of course, as well as exclusive ones but its the latter I blame substantially for the long term decline of Guest Clubs.

And the problems they caused must be adressed if folk is to have any sort of popular future.

The argument: Their cliquery (by that I mean letting chums walk later in the evening and getting a spot at the expenxse of floor singers promised a spot 7.30pm when they first arrived for example) drove many new singers away.

If you've been insulted, or see things run in a totally unfair way; not only will you give up trying to participate in folk, but you'll quite likely tell your mates that the folk scene is pretty awful - and the word spreads through a peer group.

This stopped a wider variety of people getting involved with folk and possibly contributed to the "uncool" perception of folk among younger generations.

Luckily what happened here on the ground one evening was that a large number of potential floor singers experienced "can't fit you in" treatment on the same night. But instead of disappearing into the anti-folk nightime, got together and compared notes. The result was a new singers club based on fairness - as an antidote the exclusivity that prevailed (and still rules OK in many places - I hear reports from Singaround supporters/visitors who've tried to get floorspots very recently).

In this case; instead of a trickle of people steadily encountering these 'in groups' and being driven away, here a critical mass was reached where there were enough people to form an alternative 'scene'.

So what of places where no such critical mass occured? One Folk scene, dying, because is was closed to outsiders so failed to replenish itself by this being "closed"?

Of course there's another group: those organisers who,despite their exclusivity were actually very good at the Folk Business - running Guest / Concert Clubs; offrering the right guest at a price audiences are prepared to pay - so are among the ones that thrive through to this day.   

But the fact looking longterm - we must surely all agree, is that there were a hell of a lot of clubs 30 years ago compared with now - and it would help all types of folk supporters to be realistic and honest about what's gone wrong where it has gone wrong.

May I make a suggestion (didn't Tom hint at this?) - that we try and encourage actual research (University student looking for a project?) into the facts and figures of the folk scene over the years; and qualitively, get a better idea of public attitudes and perceptions of folk music: clubs, concerts, singarounds, bar sessions, Morris dancers the lot.

I did something like this for the Steam Railway Preservation movement for my degree. Some of the findings produced great surprises.

Breezy, Snail - I'll get back to your contributions later.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 05:23 AM

Well Ian, there may be some truth in what you say, and you're not the first to make accusations of cliquery. But might it not be that organisers are merely either rewarding loyalty - i.e. favouring those who turn up reliably every week, or trying to maintain a chosen club ethos, such as traditional or contemporary, higher skill levels, chorus songs, or 'performance standards' (specially on guest nights) or whatever?

Cliques usually turn out to be no more than groups of friends, and if you're friendly too you soon get along fine. Your songs seem to be right in the middle in terms of trad/cont (much as mine are), and obviously you sing and play nicely too, so there has to be some other reason you're not getting spots - unless you're wanting more limelight than guest club averages can reasonably offer. In which case starting your own gig is the obvious solution, though taking pops at other typse of club might not be.

I get the impression you're out a lot and travel far. If so you'll be a 'stranger' at a lot of clubs, and it may take a good few visits to get accepted. I agree this is not ideal, and it's much nicer to be welcomed and feted at the first visit, but it's kind of human nature, so firing off salvos of 'grape'-shot here is unlikely to improve your situation, plus it's terrible PR for folk music.

Yes, I'm calling for an academic study. Philip Butterworth from the Arts Council is starting a survey, ant this must be good news - but I don't know what his terms of reference are, so how his findings may impact.

tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 06:45 AM

The problem in my experience living in different parts of England over many decades is the folk clique who see things as a pecking order, therefore looking down on floor singers, Singers Clubs and Singarounds - typically anything/one that's not commercially active. They are still all too common. These are the antagonists - and it's inevitable they will stimulate reaction. Ian Fyvie[quote]
No the antagonists are people who make generalised statements like this.
Here is my own experience ,I [circa 1970]started off as a floor singer,went on to run several clubs and ended up as a professional folk singer,it was through doing floor spots that I ended up doing gigs.
it is possible to graduate from doing floor spots,to doing gigs,if you work at it,and long may that continue to be the case.
I can only think of one club where I used to be a floor singer where I know I would not be booked,but it is a minority not a majority.
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 09:56 AM

Ian, no one could deny the admirable work done over the years - you've been tirelessly indefatigable in your championing of open-access singarounds but I think your claims of widespread disillusionment with the folk scene are wide of the mark.

You say that clubs "drove many new singers away" and "stopped a wider variety of people getting involved with folk." and refer to "a large number of potential floor singers.." and then "a critical mass was reached where there were enough people to form an alternative 'scene'"

These are exaggerated generalisations, solipsistic in the extreme. If there were that many disillusioned, disenfranchised performers, desperate for a chance to sing then your well-publicised thrice-weekly sessions would be bursting at the seams. But that's not the case is it?

I've been to your sessions many times when there have been three or four of us in the room whereas, despite what you say, most of the regular clubs in the area are in a pretty healthy state. To give one example: the very small and isolated town of Arundel runs a weekly folk club which alternates between booked guests and singers nights. You have to drive to get there and pay to get in - and it's packed to the rafters every week.

And here's a curious thing. There must be a couple of dozen open mic nights in Brighton every week and they're thriving in the ruthless bottom line commercialism of the high street pubs. A good or a bad thing?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

Sorry, forgot to sign the post above

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 10:53 AM

Tom - Very good news about the study - that's going to be a major step in the right direction.

On the floorspot issue, the examples I draw on are mainly on the late 1970s/early'80s era. The type of rudeness towards floor singers was suffered by a number of people I know / knew in the past. As mentioned last posting - I still hear stories of this type from singers who come to our Singarounds who get about more than I do*.

I wasn't actually a major victim (though it may seem that way!) - once I'd sussed the way a club was run I simply steered clear of it.
\
Sadly a number of singers saw these clubs as THE folk scene so kept on trying - so kept on being treated badly. Result? some fine musicians and songwriters have had an unhappy life in music - a number more have been
scared away from folk for ever.

The best thing we ever did was to set up the alternative folk scene. This, I hope, saved many more singers being driven away.

*I stopped going to guest clubs in the early 1980's (except one where I was resident) - and the last time I paid to see a guest was on Bob Copper's 80th Birthday - a long time ago! All I do now is support our local weekly singarounds - with an occasional visit to a nearby club (singers night, special event or to support friends) or a London area Singers Club / Singaround. Plus I have some unfulfilled invitations on the list which are only acessible by car.

Quick one or two more -

Capt B - Folk Cliques - all iI said was that they were all too common - not that all folk clubs are run cliques. I wouldn't give any examples here but some of my friends are quite happy to name clubs where this is still the case right now.

Breezy - I did go to clubs (see above) for several years. I saw a good selection of the Guests doing the circuits of the day. I was impressed by two brilliiant singer songwriters (famous ones) and two more excellent ones who fall into Tom's Journeyman catagory (never became big names).

I was not impressed with most of the other 'Journeymen' however - good performers nearly always - but it comes to taste at some point - unless you are that folk club "stalwart ".

The problem overall here is seeing booked guests as the only source of learning; and with it a denial that you can see brillaint and inspirational people at singarounds.   

Banjiman - what better way of promoting and expanding folk than to list SIngers Clubs that are free to go to, particularly if you're a singer?

Do you really want everyone entering the folk world to pay an entry fee and see a guest when they just want a cheap night sharing folk songs? The pure economics alone will be be a barrier for many - quite apart from the guest club not providing the sort of thing they actually want!

Snail - sorry but I really think you missed my point!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 11:07 AM

Stuart - looks like posting crossed in the ether.

I don't remember you visiting Cellarfolk tuesdays very often.   There has never been less than 11 people in the entire club history (founded May 2007).

We were running at nearly 30 many weeks for a time. The natural selection process kicked in (re Marje a couple opf days ago) and it now runs at a comfortable 12 -19 most weeks.

Crown and Anchor singarounds - certainly 3/4 some times (not often recently). But last time you came along (February) there were about a dozen of us - again an ideal size for a singaround - unless you get a lot of listeners. But we don't go for numbers - we go for a quality evening. Crown and Anchor nights are always enjoyable.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 11:17 AM

"The problem overall here is seeing booked guests as the only source of learning; and with it a denial that you can see brillaint and inspirational people at singarounds."

I can't think why you feel people think like this Ian - I see no evidence of it. It's just so obvious that no-one needs to mention it!

"Do you really want everyone entering the folk world to pay an entry fee and see a guest when they just want a cheap night sharing folk songs?"

But that's the beauty of the folk scene. You don't have to. There's clubs and gatherings of all shapes and sizes and prices to suit all tastes and requirements, and that's as it should be. No need to knock anyone else in order to promote your own corner. What I'm trying to do is to protect the 'guest' corner, but you don't hear me belittling anyone else, do you? Quite the opposite - I'm constantly saying how important the 'am' sector is, and I support it myself all the time (I'll probably be out at a session tonight).

It's starting to emerge that you are locked into some battle from thirty years ago. If you changed your mind, and actually went to see a few guest artists today you might be pleasantly surprised not only by the artists but by the welcome - and the number of songs you got to sing! But if that's too much to swallow perhaps you might consider toning down your comments a little on the grounds that you might just possibly be a smidgin out of touch, and so save me from having to do all this darned typing! :-)

Tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 11:49 AM

"Banjiman - what better way of promoting and expanding folk than to list SIngers Clubs that are free to go to, particularly if you're a singer?

Do you really want everyone entering the folk world to pay an entry fee and see a guest when they just want a cheap night sharing folk songs? The pure economics alone will be be a barrier for many - quite apart from the guest club not providing the sort of thing they actually want!"

Ian,

If you re-read my posts you'll see that I attend and support a weekly singaround (Burneston Folk Club) as well as run a Guest Club. I enjoy both and see brilliant performers at both. You do see the not so good at singers nights as well...... which is a rarity at a guest club with no floor singers (I've had negatiove comments about one of the fifty or so semi-pro or pro guests I've booked over the last 18 months).

Though there is a fair degree of overlap between the 2 attendances we do get "audience" at KFFC who would never attend a singaround. There are also those who won't pay to come to KFFC and only attend when they are a booked support (the cads!). So both approaches promote the folk scene..... so please stop knocking pay clubs, if you don't like 'em, just leave them alone. I'm certainly not knocking what you do..... and I don't see anyone else knocking it either.

Paul

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM

I've only been able to get to you Cellarfolk club once because I am committed elsewhere on Tuesdays but I have only heard good reports of it, so hats off to you.

Stuart

PS I wonder if it's the most successful of your ventures because you book guests?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:46 PM

What! the man books guests...... but he would never pay to see one!

Do the audience have to PAY to get in????

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 02:43 PM

Back again!

Banjiman and Tom - yes of course I recognise you both support Guest Clubs and Singarounds. I'm picking up on various points and comments for a general readership to this thread - and trying to summarise my position to round particular points off at the same time I guess (rushed sometimes - not advisable!)

There's a reasonable consensus and having explored with mudcattes some of the things we discuss during "Chat and Tune Up" I heartened that there are people determined to regenerate folk.

On Cellarfolk - Stuart, thanks for your comments. I recognise that you're busy on Tuesdays (was it that long ago we used to see you at the Cleveland?)

Booking guests >> succecss?   Generally no. We've always attracted a few new/occasional people on guest nights - but lost others because of less turns in the circle.   So future guest nights have to be weighed up more carefully. Its knowing what our regular supporters prefer - that, I have to say is chance to play 3 songs!

No, Banjiman, we don't charge even on guest nights - just have a collection. We had some excellent guests despite no fixed fee* (I can anticipate a likely comment here...)

Hope I've covered all the latest points - off to Cellarfolk!

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 05:13 PM

Hello Ian

The term 'Guest' doesn't ring true Ian , maybe your idea of a 'guest' would not be the same as a 'club guest' for example I can't see the likes of Roy Bailey, Martin Carthy and Vin Garbut appearing for you, mind you they would attract a large attendance and the attendeeswould be willing to pay upwards of £8. They may not want to hear you though.

I doubt if many or your guests travel from too far away and would probably be residents at other clubs rather than gigging artistes, but I could be totally wrong.

I do know that some would travel to you as a means of increasing their exposure, but it would cost them in the process.

So when do yuo want me to come, I'm slack in September.

There's a challenge to both of us, I'm up for it so do you have the balls ?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 09:10 PM

Hello Breezy

Can't believe it - two enquiries about Cellarfolk bookings in one night!

The other person is a local singer who played a spot at another nearby club last year. Better watch out we don't become 'popular'!

Best give me a ring on 01273 509552.

Had a sad tinge to tonight's club, as Crown and Anchor singaround supporter - Elanor - made her first and last visit to Cellafolk. She's moving back "up North' first thing tomorrow.   She's a natural Folk Club organizer so suspect she'll be starting a singers' event somewhere "not very far South of Manchester" as soon as she's established.

Ian

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:57 AM

Well, Ian. I'm (almost) speechless.

So in truth you run a reasonably conventional Guest Club, against which most of the accusations that you aim at others can reasonably be laid? Goodness gracious me.

You book guests. How do you make sure you avoid booking anyone who has been 'hyped' or had a write up in a local mag?

You advertise. How, then, do you avoid 'hype'?

You restrict floor singing time by booking a guest. How do you then manage to ensure that everyone gets as many songs as they want, (at least four each is it)?, no matter how many turn up demanding a go?

You admit a non-participating audience. How do you then make sure that you let in no-one who might have been 'indoctinated' or who admires the guest in some way?

You advocate free entry as a political principle. How do you square the collection of money for the guest (which really is no different to a door charge in practice) with your beliefs?

It seems to me that the only difference between your club and those you despise is that in yours you are in control, so can please yourself. If that's too strong, I apologise, but if it's not then maybe you should think about all those you have insulted above.

Wanders off muttering darkly.

Tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 06:05 AM

For guest club organisers like myself and Ian "denial" is just a river in Egypt, Tom.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 09:30 PM

Hello Tom (wearing a big smile after reading your last posting)

After breezy's posting and not dissimilar comment from new mudcatter Keith (Welcome Keith) to me in person tonight, let me elucidate!

Brighton Cellarlolk was my spur-of-the-moment spin off from the Brighton SIngers Folk Club which, two years ago was experiencing several problems. Keith by the way, came up with the Cellarfolk name.

It was an experiment in trying to put right the problems referred to above, and to try to create something like my ideal folk club where people share music, and have a bit of fun at the same time (how many clubs are full of good musicians- but like Death?).

An unintended experiment was to book an occasional guest. These bookings arose NOT by scanning the folk adverts, seeing whose hot on the circuit, promising them a fee at the going rate - and hoping to cover costs. Plenty of clubs do that - and I heard organizers of a more recently started club, have already made losses like £70 on booking guests - but that's only hearsay - I don't know the organizer (I'm told I probably saw him around the club scene in the 1970's).

(Back to Cellarfolk....) We simply offered bookings to people who came along to Cellarfolk, and went down well. They were booked because our regular supporters thought they'd like to hear more from them - NOT because they were a Hot Name. Our guests were booked through an organic process (this is going to solicit comments!!) not a commercial one.

So to start with, we are giving a platform to genuinely talented people (not hyped* ones) who in the vast majority of cases have had little 'exposure' in the formal Guest Club scene. Secondly, the economic relationship is between club supporters and guest direct. They receive in the hat collection a reflection of what club supporters think of them and what supporters can afford (this should please Free Market fans). Therefore I am not a promoter.

We could argue that we're simply rewarding particularly good floor singers rather than booking guests artists, if you follow through breezy's recent comment (I was tempted breezy, perhaps in another thread).

And artists at our recent full guest nights** have been quite happy with their collections I gather.

So here's the counter to those who might just have thought I was being hypocritical - folk who appear as guests with us do so through a base-up process ie. people who our supporters have seen and liked. The normal/conventional guest comes from a top-down process. ie. who's available? What price?

Our process is the one that will nurture much (probably the best) of the talent of the future. Sadly more will continue to come from the: Record company +£££ route, I suspect.

The footnotes

*hyped ones - as in you've probably seen the leaflet - the folk mag advert etc; had a canvassing call. Our guests have all done a bit in our singaround circle first.
**some of our featured artists simply do an extended spot - and don't have a collection. Our last full guests were Rattlebag from Hastings - and were superb. - worth the Big Boys and Girls booking if they're looking for fresh, energetic yet traditional entertainers IMHO (am I allowed to offer you such suggestions Twickfolk?).

The foot footnote: Guest nights don't go down well with some of our supporters. Our club is basically and always will be Singers' Club, but with special nights balanced to serve our key supporters. So we haven't "Sold Out".

I trust I've answered all your points Tom.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 09:34 PM

Oops - forgot to sign in - like Stuart a couple of post ago.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 07:41 AM

Ian,

So you've finally discovered the "base-up" process for identifying good performers that club organisers have been using for years.

The well known performers on the club circuit have gained their popularity because it's audiences who have "hyped them up" by word of mouth.

To suggest otherwise, namely that the multitudes of people who have paid to see them over the years have been duped by a "coterie" of club organisers and record companies is jaw-droppingly patronising.

Your manifesto is like that of an elite cabal which is proud to claim its superiority over the masses - more hot house flowers than grass roots.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 10:47 PM

Stuart

You're ot of touch. It's well know that a number of Big Names who guest in the folk scene have seldom sat in a folk club audience / done a fllorspot.

To suggest I'm claiming to have discovered the "base-up" process of finding guests is the real jaw dropping bit. If you're convinced that what I said then I presume you can find a quote from me to that effect.

Your comments are descending into C**P!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:40 AM

Ian

OK, I'll indulge your semantic quibbling and substitute admitted for discovered. So now answer my point that popular singers' reputations are made by a broad consensus and then defend yourself against the charge that you belong to a tiny and unrepresentative minority who consistently rubbish these reputations.

As for

It's well know that a number of Big Names who guest in the folk scene have seldom sat in a folk club audience / done a fllorspot

Well known to whom?

The implication is that your (unnamed) Big Names just waltzed into the club circuit they had "seldom" set foot in, got bookings and became Big Names, just like that.

This is chillingly close to Creationist theory and stinks of paranoid envy.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:29 AM

I know for a fact ,that the following musicians have done floorspots and sat in folk clubs ,Steve Turner,Keith Kendrick,Peter Bellamy,Louis Killen,Chris Wilson,Ken Wilson[WilsonFamily],Dick Miles,Richard Grainger,Dave Walters,Pete Castle,Martin Carthy,Tom Paley.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:25 PM

Re: Big Names parachuted in etc.

CaptB - your list could extend to the vast majority of guests. My statement, quantatively, says "A number of". No contradiction!

I'm certainly not talking actual numbers, same as you - I doubt if anyone could. The question is whether my statement is wrong ie - it applies to no-one. My information comes from a commentator on BBC Radio!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:49 PM

Stuart

My posting above covers your second point by and large.

Who are they? I'm certainly not naming names though I've heard two mentioned.

The reason being paranoid envy? The envy bit could be right when you know that the source of this opinion is the concert club and festival scene. Besides hearing the comment on BBC Radio (as stated above) it has been discussed in my presence by people who know the above scene.

The envious ones?   My guess it's guest singers who have done the rounds and are envious of those parachuted in. It's probably arisen from talk in the bars. Creationist theory? Why not put it to those nearer to the scene where the view was probably created? I don't mix in those circles.

**Sentence one - semantic quibbling? You're peddling a wrong message. No point in arguing over which wrong word you want to use in a complete misrepresentation.

**Popular singers reputations made by a consensus? I'm not doing essays. I could argue around various tangents, but as a basic statement - it's wrong.

**Unrepresentative minority quote? Again an essays worth to break it down. Want to do surveys of opinion within the entire folk scene? I don't. Every political party and pressure group in the land is actually a minority - its not going to stop any one of them putting forward their views.   

**Guest reputations rubbished? Believe all guests are God (and all floor singers are rubbish?) if you like. Rather sad I'd say , if that's really what you believe.

Back on the paranoid envy (of guests)....   did you actually think I was suffering it? I don't crave large folk club audiences. It wouldn't bother me if I never ever played again outside of a singaround club.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 09:32 PM

SO....... WHERE CAN SINGERS GET IN FREE?

Most info can be found within the first 25 postings. After that comment vastly outweighs information!

See early postings by: Ian Fyvie, Terry McDonald, Richard Bridge, Alex s, Sussex Carole, Virginia Tam, Suzi Z, Banjiman and info on singers' clubs where singers pay from Breezy and Dame Pattie Smith to start with.

A number of others have mentioned singers nights at guest clubs.

After LesB's posting is when info becomes overwhelmed by debate.

..............ANY MORE CLUBS TO ADD?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:18 AM

"SO....... WHERE CAN SINGERS GET IN FREE?" (Ian Fyvie)

Ian, did it ever occur to you (even for a nanosecond) that "getting in free" isn't as high on many people's priorities as it obviously is on yours?

No?

Thought not...

Stick to the weekly singarounds where you and your cronies can sing as many songs as they like without unlocking the combinations on your wallets. Leave the proper clubs to get on with what they do (and what their audiences enjoy)....ie supporting a circuit of guests who are endeavouring to make (usually meagre) livings by playing music that (in most cases) exhibits true artistry.

The two types of event can happily co-exist. As has been said many times nobody has criticised the open-access, anything-goes, toll-free singaround events that you yourself patronise...please don't continue to insult those who arrange and attend events that are different.

Thank you (Over and out)

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:48 AM

SO....... WHERE CAN SINGERS GET IN FREE?

SINGAROUNDS, USUALLY.

OR DID YOU MEAN, WHERE CAN SINGERS (BUT NOT PUNTERS) GET IN FREE? IN WHICH CASE I NEITHER KNOW NOR CARE.

(WHY ARE WE SHOUTING?)

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:24 AM

Must admit I've had a bit of trouble following this thread - and have barely scanned the bulk of it! Possibly because many of the issues are outside of my realm of experience, and probably my interest likewise. However it is of interest to me to know anywhere that provides a fun evening at minimal expense. And it seems a pity that the thread lost its purpose somewhere along the line.

Ian Fyvie, would it be worth cut and pasting the straightforward answers to the question posited, and copying to fresh thread? This one could always be retitled as a debate or whatever about the issues raised and could rage on independently. A thought...

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: LesB
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 06:42 AM

"After LesB's posting is when info becomes overwhelmed by debate."

I hope that you are not crediting me with this development :-)
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 07:21 AM

In belated response to the thread title - everyone gets in free to the Brighton Acoustic Session and everyone gets the chance to sing at least one song.

Details at www.brightonacoustic.com

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 07:49 AM

Jim Maclean:
I let Bob Dylan in for nothing when he first arrived at the King and Queen, in 1962. He was virtually unknown (to me and most of the audience) but he had a guitar with him. Should I have charged him? He did sing though.

I was in the King and Queen last weekend, and the impression I got from the framed copy of the press cuttings about that was that he had a paid gig. You're saying he didn't?

Either way you blew an opportunity to change history for the better by telling him to bugger off and where the local dole office was.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 03:44 PM

Thank you Stuart - that's helpful info for anyone coming on to this thread simply to find out where they can share a song with other folk enthusiasts without paying.

Twickfolk - I've always assumed you run a concert club - no floorspots, so no-ones going to encourage floorsingers to invade your territory.

This thread is precisely about pointing (eg.visiting) singers to where they ARE welcome to do what they want to so: SING FOLK SONGS.

It does no-one any favours sending a visiting floor singer to a club where s/he's not wecome, or get a hard time if s/he dares think s/he is also a folk singer.

LesB - you're a convenient marker for the dividing line between Info at the begining of the thread - and the argument therafter, until the last 48 hours at least.

I'm happy to confirm that you were one of our contributors offering useful information.

Sleepy Rosie - I guess it's possible - but worth giving it another day or so to accumulate a few more Singer's Clubs - sessions info perhaps.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:03 PM

A posted a PS to Pip Radish - but its gone to a different thread!

Basically - this thread is needed because 1) there are folk fans who want a cheap night out (re Sleeoy Rosie); 2) there are folk enthusiasts for whom folk is a participatory thing (me) - not a cinsumer product. 3) there are singarounds that charge singers and Guest Clubs that don't - so we need the informaion to allow us to make the right choice for our particular preferences in Folk.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM

Shameless plug for the above mentioned session because I've just learned how to insert a link!
http://www.brightonacoustic.com

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 09:14 PM

Shameless Stuart? Why not be proud you're offering a low cost folk night - real people doing real things - at a time when lots of people have less money, yet don't want to sit at home replaying the same DVD they forgot to return.

Ian

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:44 AM

You're goading me again Ian!

We charge £5 for a club night at KFFC.... for this you get 2 top quality pro standard acts..... as well as the opportunity to do your own stuff at the after show singaround.

I think that represents excellent value! Full of "real" people as well.

I'm expecting 50+ in for The Young'Uns on Saturday night. Speaks for itself really.

The charge is up front.... people can decide to come or not based on this, we won't "ambush" you with a whip round.

Paul

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Iannotsignedin
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 03:44 PM

Hello Paul

I'm being positive again! At Stuart's Club you get to sing, and see a guest and still don't pay except how much you want to in the collection (I gather.... Stuart will correct anything I've got wrong I expect),

So - many good value models around.

All I paid for last night at an excellent Sunday Singaround was for 3 pints of Harveys (cynics will say that at North of England beer prices you can still buy three pints and have enough to go to a Guest Folk Club compared to us..... )


BW Ian

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: BB
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:22 PM

Half our nights are singarounds where, we hope, everyone puts the price of a pint in the pot, but there's no-one standing over them with a whip. That money goes to paying the expenses of occasional pre-arranged visiting performers who do get to do a few extra songs in return - it also goes towards subsidising occasional skills workshops. And with the number if performers who attend, whether or not there's a 'visiting performer', they never get more than a couple of songs - but that's not what it's about. It's about sharing songs with others.

The other half of our nights are concerts with pre-arranged 'floor spots' - and everyone, but everyone, except the main guest pays - and I've never had someone invited to do a floor spot refuse, including the occasional one who gigs elsewhere, because they're all there to enjoy the guest performer who works damned hard to exhibit the skills on display, whether they be musical skills or 'reacting with the audience' skills.

Oh, the club is called 'Shammick Acoustic' and it's in Combe Martin, North Devon. More details at our website. You now know what you'd be getting, and all I can say is, you'd be very welcome if you're down this way on holiday any time - I think most locals already know about it.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:29 PM

Barbara

Thanks for your Combe Martin singaround info.

Have a look at the Blue Clicky facility (bottom right of dialogue box). It'll give everyone an instant link to your club's website.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:45 AM

Never mind what happened in the 60s and 70s, when clubs were folk were flocking to the folk clubs and finances were not as serious an issue in running a club. And never mind the distinctions between singers' clubs, payclubs, sessions and plain old birthday bashes. Today things are different - fact is fact - and the folk scene has evolved (or degenerated, if you are that way inclined) into what is there now. I would not begrudge anyone their charging policies - they cut their suit to fit the cloth.

And if one is not willing to spend money for a good singaround, there are free sessions and there is always the birthday bash - invite some folk to your place then! But as one snigger/snogwriter (nod to the Countess) to another, I cannot agree with the statement "one song - it really isn't worth my while getting my guitar out...".

Not so long ago (2003) one song was worth it for me to travel 200 miles each way for a singaround AND pay an entrance fee. And if the Open Door was still running, it would still be worth it. Herga and Sharps' and Twickfolk, and Tudor, and Bacup and dozens of clubs around the country are worth it. Because what matters is the chance to sing your song - for a songwriter at least. And whether you have to pay to help out an organisation with similar interests to yours, or not have to pay, is in my opinion less of an issue. For a songwriter, this is a case of putting one's money where one's mouth is.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Cliff
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:52 AM

Kris Kristofferson thought it worthwhile to hire & fly a helicopter to land on Johnny Cashs lawn to get him to listen to ONE song.
Sunday Morning Coming Down - turned out to be well worth it IMO.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:37 PM

But Reuben's Train do it best

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:46 PM

OK, Cliff, Ian,

I'll let any singer into KFFC for free if they arrive by helicopter, but they must land it on the village green outside the club!

Paul

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 01:15 PM

Do we get a Family-sized Bucket of Chicken Wings too?
Oh - sorry, misread... :-)

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM

George,

If you arrive by helicopter I'll get you a bargain bucket as well!

Paul

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:16 AM

What do you think, George?

Finger-pickin' good!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Frank_Finn
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:47 AM

Sligo Traditional Singers Session. 2nd Wednesday of every month, Ballinacarrow, Sligo ,Ireland. All free and you also get barbecue spare ribs, cocktail sausages, etc.
Sligo Traditional Singers Circle
Contact Us

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 09:39 AM

Ian, you'll know about this one but perhaps others won't: there's a free singaround at the Trevor Arms , Glynde, East Sussex, right next to the railway station, on the third Tuesday of every month. It was run for decades by Sandra Goddard and is now run by Ruth Cooke, Jamie Crawford (both of Brighton Storytellers as well as being singers) and Elizabeth Rimmington, with support from Sandra. The Snail and I usually go to it.

It's quite small and there's a fair bit of discussion of the songs and tunes; it's also very ballad-friendly.

A note of caution: the current landlord and landlady are retiring in May, so after this month it would be wise to check that we're still welcome under the new administration before setting off.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 08:53 PM

Frank Finn - thanks for the info - noted and will be listed shortly.

Valmai - thanks also - I knew! (made over once a few years back admittedly...). Ruth also reminded me when I saw her shopping in Hove last week!

Ian

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 18 May 09 - 01:51 PM

Thanks to everyone who contributed info to this thread earlier in the year,

Villain started a long overdue Permathread for all clubs which made a listing as proposed here less urgent.

But if anyone wants to add any more free-entry-for-singers info, perhaps its worth having a second run. It's summer nearly (honest!) and a good time for people to explore new clubs (and I may still do the listing - perhaps I should learn about permathreads.... )

Ian Fyvie