breakneck speed and Irish Music

Subject: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 05:56 AM

is breakneck speed spoiling Irish music?what are your opinions .

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 05:59 AM

I believe it was Johnny Oleary ,who said that if Denis Murphy was alive today,he wouldnt be playing out because the music was too fast .

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:01 AM

Name Drop alert !

I was once in the company of Finbarr Furey, when another piper demanded of him "Why do you play so fast ?"

To which Fin replied "I can."

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:12 AM

I think Chris Sherburn said something like he spent the first 10 years putting in as many notes as possible and the next 10 years taking them out again.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: bubblyrat
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:32 AM

For me,there's nothing worse than a good tune,of any nationality,being played so fast as to totally ruin it.Classic example----"Silly Wizard" playing The Wind That Shakes The Barley....absolutely AWFUL !! IMHO,of course.Plus,it deters the less musically able from having a go !

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:55 AM

An old fiddle player here in Clare, referring to a very fast young player, said, "He'll be a good musician when he's too old to move that fast".
The last time I saw the old man play was the night he gave up half way through the session because he was unable to keep up with the high-speed young players - not the best way to end a lifetime of music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 07:01 AM

Because someone chooses not to play fast it doesnt follow that they are not capable of it .
[imo]some dance tunes[slides]which often have fewer notes,work quite well played fast.
Johnny O leary , in an interview, blamed the dancers,I am not sure it is as simple as that,many people who play in sessions,have never played for dancing.,yet play reels so fast that dancers,that imo are too fast for enjoyable dancing.
funnily enough, I have been accused of playing reels too fast,although I generally play them between 200 and 210[or 100 to 105],which would be considered on the slow side .
so I am talking of reels played at speeds above about 225 .
of course many dancers play to recordings these days,and the recordings can be artificially speeded up after the recording[without altering the pitch].

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 07:07 AM

yes,I agree,Jim .
and I bet that musician played with more lilt and joy than the other people playing in the session.
[imo] your story shows a disrespect that seems to be becoming prevalent .
session etiquette seems to be disappearing too,if someone starts at a speed ,please join in at that speed,do not speed them up ,and please listen to the musician who starts the tune .

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 07:22 AM

This is one reason why a lot of Irish music turns me off. The only 'big' Irish band that I have seen that I enjoy is Patrick Street. I sat through Dervish at day of concerts last year & was bored stiff. But that's just me, i'm sure a lot of the Dervish fans were bored listening to Brass Monkey.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM

Hence the growing popularity of Beginners and Slow and Easy Sessions

L in C
Last Tuesday of the Month, The Beech, Beech Road, Chorlton
Some Irish, mostly English many mongrel

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:05 AM

Maybe Irish music just isn't all that suited to session playing?

One of the most amazing fiddle performances I've ever heard was from the late Glasgow Irish fiddler Jimmy McHugh, late at night after a folk festival when almost everybody had gone home. Playing solo, not very fast, with fantastic expressiveness and gorgeous ornamentation thought out to emphasise every turn of each individual melody. I've never heard that sort of playing in a massed Irish session and I don't think it's possible.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:13 AM

Is this 'bleedthrough' from the modern Bluegrass style ? I was at a
Bluegrass Jam in Virginia last year that was extremely enjoyable , with some VERY good musicians playing interesting tunes at a SENSIBLE speed - But they were mostly Older Players ! Including one Four times State Fiddle champion .

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:18 AM

One of the reasons that I don't attend Irish sessions. Not only can I not play the tunes with any feeling at that speed but, after a while, they all seem to blend into one amorphous tune.

It's not just Irish music, though. The same applies to a lot of jazz playing. It's very easy, for example, to take an old standard like Sweet Georgia Brown and go through it at a hell of a lick - anyone can do it - but when it's slowed down (without getting plodding), it sounds much more laid back and expressive. It's great fun, of course, to go ripping along at warp speed now and then. But not all the time.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: LesB
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:22 AM

Sorry peeps Guest above was me, I didn't realise i'd lost my cookie.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

If it's too fast to be danced to, it's too fast to play or listen to.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:32 AM

The other side of the coin is singers (Particularly Un Accompanied) who turn decent songs into Absolute Dirgies !

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:52 AM

There are two different things going on here:

- the tempo of the music
- the number of musical events per second

And they don't correlate. Typically in classical music, slow movements have more notes per second than fast ones. And a good unaccompanied singer or solo instrumentalist doing a metrically very slow piece will add so much ornamentation and so many rapid variations of timbre and dynamic that the rate of musical activity can be far faster than a reel.

Pibroch takes this to an extreme. Its tempi are among the slowest ever used in music, but the number of notes per second is at the limit of what human fingers are capable of.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:58 AM

Captain Birdseye: session etiquette seems to be disappearing too,if someone starts at a speed ,please join in at that speed,do not speed them up ,and please listen to the musician who starts the tune .

Amen to that. There are some local (South Manchester / Cheshire) sessions I just don't bother with any more, because every tune ends up at 250bpm regardless of the original tempo set by the originator in the first few bars.

You only need one or two cretins with a modicum of ability and a superiority complex (or, even worse, an unshakeable conviction that they know better than me what speed I fancy playing a tune at), and it takes more of a determined effort to fight against them than I usually think is worth expending in what is supposed to be a sociable and collaborative activity. And sometimes if I'm feeling bloody minded and on one of my louder instruments, I just keep playing at the original tempo :)

Would that the speed-is-everything attitude was limited to Irish music sessions: I play very little Irish, partly for this very reason, and the same thing is leaking across into English-music sessions. I went to one in Yorkshire when I was away training for work and the tempos for a supposedly English session were just crazy, it was more like The Ramones than The Old Swan Band.

There's also the problem that many people seem to think that the speed they first heard a tune is the only speed it can possibly be played at; are sometimes genuinely shocked at a slightly slower tempo; and probably even think they're helping you out by winding it up to the speed it's played on the O'Turbo Band CD they have at home. And of course some people are just arrogant fools who do it deliberately to show how much 'better' they are than everyone else in the room.

The result is that it all becomes a frantic tedious characterless mismash, and I've got better things to do. And then there are the nights when everyone playing is of a like mind and the most wonderful impromptu music-making transpires, and it's those evening that keep me turning out. Don't get me wrong, I love playing fast tunes in the course of an evening, but I don't want every tune at the edge of degenerating into white noise the same way I don't want pizza for tea every single night ...

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:59 AM

The dances determine the speed, surely. With my admittedly limited understanding of Irish dances I would say that reels need to be played fairly fast, polkas a bit slower (but faster than English polkas), and jigs much slower than you might imagine especially double jigs.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:36 AM

Dancers have their needs. The dance mustn't go too slow or too fast.

If dancing is not involved, then the music ought to be paced so that we can play with precision (for example, get all fingers in the right place), so we can tell minor from major, and so that there is variation in tempo from one piece to another. An entire night of pieces in the tempo is tiresome.

My husband plays the bodhran. I was surprised to learn that it was possible for our amateur group to play Irish music too fast for him.

Most of the bands who travel, doing concerts, play all the dance music fast and loud. They also turn the guitar into a percussion instrument, tuning it DADGAB and whacking the strings all night. The result: new listeners say it all sounds alike.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:55 AM

Jack Campin:
"- the tempo of the music
- the number of musical events per second

And they don't correlate. Typically in classical music, slow movements have more notes per second than fast ones. And a good unaccompanied singer or solo instrumentalist doing a metrically very slow piece will add so much ornamentation and so many rapid variations of timbre and dynamic that the rate of musical activity can be far faster than a reel."

A very helpful clafification that Jack.
I've just memorised Lowlands, and sing it quite slow - as I feel is fitting..
Then reading on this thread (and elsewhere on Cat previously) about complaints concerning unaccompanied singers dirging away at songs, made me think "Oops!!"
I don't ornament constantly (or at a highly intricate level, as I'm not vocally athletic enough), but having just tested the song without ornamentation, I find it sounds pretty dull by comparison.
Another minor peice of illumination, that will be stored away for future reference.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 10:51 AM

I agree, Captain - it is possible (and happens all too often) that the pace of the music strips it of dignity and enjoyment of the listener.

That said : I once heard an outfit play O'Carolan's "Hewlett" as if it were a slow march. It was DIRE.

When I asked why, I was told (by a snooty Englishwoman, if you don't mind) : "This is how O'Carolan would have played it".

As Eric Morecambe was wont to say "there's no answer to that".

Regards, Bryn

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 10:58 AM

I absolutely detest session thugs as much as I detest song circle thugs. When a musician calls out a tune, that person is entitled to set the tempo at whatever rate they desire, or need to ornament it properly. No one else has the right to speed it up, slow it down, or chastise them for that. They are playing it as they hear it, or as they are able. It is legitimate to discuss it, and anytime one performs, they must be ready for criticism, but it is their tune to call.

One thing that we learn as we grow older is that it takes a great deal more skill, and fewer notes, to make a tune speak. When we are young it seems that it is about us, and showing off our reflexes. When we are old, it seems that we understand it is about the tune and how to coax the emotion out of it. It is about nuance and ornament. Some tunes, reels in particular, are meant to be played at a much higher tempo. But it is not about how fast can you play it, it is about how fast should it be played to allow the listeners ear to catch the excitement of it, and still distinguish the tune. Same problem in the abstract on the air. How slow to play, and keep the audience engaged and feeling the depth and resonance of the air.

It's about the tune, not the player....

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 11:01 AM

> The only 'big' Irish band that I have seen that I enjoy is Patrick Street. <

Right with you there, Les, and I suspect it's because when Patrick Street wish to up the excitement level, they do it using dynamics and ornamentation rather than by playing faster.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 11:11 AM

I have heard it said that older set dancers reckoned to dance at 60 bpm and that was when they were younger, but I wonder whether this would have applied say, to Sliabh Luachra polkas.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 11:34 AM

So, general range:

Jigs
Slip jigs
Polkas
Hornpipes
Reels
Waltzes

L in C

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Zen
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 11:46 AM

I've been playing Irish music most of my life and have to say I also used to play too fast when I was younger. Part of this might have been copying the style of some well-known players in the 70s and 80s when speed seemed to beome the fashion.

As I've got older I've consciously tried to slow down the tempo of a lot of tunes... bounce and lift being more important than speed. It's also difficult to play tasteful triplets and other ornamentation if the tempo is too fast.

Now I live in Scotland I've noticed the tendancy to speed with Scottish music too, especially with some younger players (though definitely not all).

Zen

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: LesB
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:05 PM

Sometimes it can be fun to change the usual tempo to a song or tune. At out regular session we very occasionally play 'Slow the Plough'.
ie starting 'peed the Plough' very very slowly & then build it up gently & then on the call do it one last time with a furious race to the end. It's only an occasional bit of fun though.
Another thing that sometimes happens is when a punter in the pub keeps on shouting "why don't you play an Irish tune" we just play something (probably not Irish because we don't know all that many Irish tunes) at breakneck speed & he is happy and none the wiser. The general public tend to equate any up tempo tunes with Iirishness!
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:07 PM

So, general range I should have said in beats per minute:

Jigs
Slip jigs
Polkas
Hornpipes
Reels
Waltzes

I guess nobody wants to commit?
L in C

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:14 PM

Give 'em a chance, Les. I think you're assuming too high a value of CPH (comments per hour).

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:20 PM

But Phil, I'm a bloke, I need attention and I need to now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See you tomorrow at the Beech?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:23 PM

Give 'em a chance, Les. I think you're assuming too high a value of CPH (comments per hour).

Aside from the rate of CPH there's the minor problem that I've got no idea about BPM for the various tune types off the top of my head, and no immediate way of working them out!

However if you listen very carefully Les (I'm only over in Withington) you should be able to hear me playing them at what I consider a decent pace ...

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM

yes, I will,jigs 117, irishpolkas 140,slides 142,reels 103[206],hornpipes 147,marches 117, slip jigs 114,those are the approximate speeds Ilike to play .

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:21 PM

DEon't forget that one person's easy pace is the next person's breakneck. I try to avoid sessions and musicians who play beyond the speed at which it sounds pleasant, but some musicians sound ever so relaxed, until you notice that actually hey are playing very fast. It's the relax that matters.

I recently got a Martin Hayes CD, which is played in a fairly slow, but uncelievably relaxed, manner.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM

Thanks sfmans, I couldn't hear you but perhaps it was covered by the sound of sobbing Man City fans? (Of which I am one). However, last Tuesday of the month at the Beech, Beech Road Chorlton for tunes and first and third Wednesday for songs (and a few tunes)!


Thanks also to Capt. Birdseye for numeracy and more

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Frank Southport
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 02:08 PM

Bryn Pugh: I remember you telling me that Finbarr Furey story on the Manchester to Southport train. I miss those interesting chats!

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 02:19 PM

Have a look at this video and concentrate on the guitarist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgj9Q4-YEBc&feature=related

As a person who's had tennis elbow, I have the following thoughts:

His right arm is doing the same thing too hard, too fast and too many times without a rest.

His hand is tense from holding the pick. This is not good.

The sharp edge of the guitar is digging into his elbow while the whatchacallit nerve is having to move, back and forth, back and forth through the elbow joint.

I have seen other guitarists who move that arm further, harder and faster than the man in the video.   
=====
It would be interesting to calculate how many times a right arm does this during rehearsals followed by a tour. Hundreds, thousands?

In my opinion, someone who plays like that very long is headed for joint trouble and real pain.

I've known two musicians (one keyboard, one fiddle) who've gone to doctors with tendonitis and been told to stop playing for A Year.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 02:21 PM

I have observed that speed is not the best interpretation for the feeling of the tune.
This is a redundant comment, I know, but so much of Irish music is based on dance,
either home set-dances or step-dancing that it should become obvious as it is in jazz music that speed for its own sake is silly.

I like to hear an irish tune without too much ornamentation (which obscures the tune) or
done too fast to keep the notes away from the ear.

Music is not a gymnastic feat. The BPM obsession comes from an instinct by those that possess a gene for finger-dexterity to let it run away with them. In jazz, BPM becomes less of an expressive agent even though the jazz musician is capable of playing fast if needed.
(Check Charlie Parker).

What makes Irish music Irish is not speed but lilt (as Capt. Birdseye says) and feel.
I've heard too many American groups not get it right because they are Johnny-come-latelys to the music. When a music is culture-based such as jazz, growing up in it
requires different tempos to express variety.

Interesting is that there is a slight swing to Irish music not unlike jazz. It almost
has a 12/8 feel to it. (Lilt).

What excites the audience for Irish music is not speed per se but a kind of passion
that is uniquely Irish and a sense of lyricism in which the Irish music excels. I think
that speed for its own sake would be laughed at in the Comhaltas seisiuns.
Someone who tried to do that would be stepped on as a beginner.

So, it's like Bluegrass which for a while prized pyro-technics. Then the music
outgrew the gymnastics. Same for Americans playing Irish.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 02:27 PM

I've heard that Finbar Furey anecdote as a Phil Cunningham anecdote. (While I like his tunes, I don't think that much of Cunningham as a player).

Waltz tempi vary between different styles. Swedish waltzes often pack so many notes into the bar that they end up requiring faster fingers than the average Irish reel.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Gulliver sans Cookie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 03:17 PM

I don't think the speed thing is new - I've heard old pipers on record and cylinder about a hundred years old and they're fairly whizzing along.

If speed is a problem you can always stick to hornpipes, polkas, slides, marches, etc, which you can then play at your own pace.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 03:54 PM

which you can then play at your own pace.[quote]
but you cant because some f####### comes in,not listening and speeds the tune up,and then you have guitarists who think hornpipes should be played even,when you are playing them in triplet rhythm,and then at the guitarists who cant hear the lilt in jigs,but play as if they are six even quavers,.if only they would listen .

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Vrdpkr
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 04:25 PM

Bob Wills once said, "If it is too fast to dance to, it's too damn fast."

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: oggie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 04:33 PM

If you have an old vinyl copy of John Doonan "Flute for the Feis" have a listen. Everything played at dance speed and in perfect time. I use it as my reference point and yes, I do find most sessions play too fast.

My other great influence was Pat Nealy from Humberston who was also a player for the dance. Now sadly gone for many years he could play a reel for an hour and the dancers at the end got the same chance as those at the beginning.

Steve

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 04:43 PM

Watching Derek Bell rip through O'Carolan's Concerto, it seemed to lose its melody in the flurry of notes. The most stately version I've heard is (gasp) by an American Old-timey group, the Delaware Water String band, which brings out the beauty in a slow and gentle fashion.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Sapper on TRC at Hastings
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 04:56 PM

A band at Burntwood some time ago played "The One Eyed Riley" at such a breakneck speed that all the humour from the words was totally lost!!

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 05:50 PM

It's a lot harder to play slowly (and well) than it is to play at breakneck speed. Sadly, that's a fact not widely appreciated by non-musicians, and consequently sometimes exploited by not-so-good musicians.

There are some who are apt to play 'competitively' fast though, and I find that annoying because it so obviously detracts from the musicality of what's happening. It can be fun to do occasionally but I think the entertainment value is soon exhausted.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Phil Williams
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:15 PM

Interesting that throughout this thread everyone would like to see tunes played more slowly, - me too, I love the pace of, say, Maids of Mitchelstown by the Bothy's. Trouble is, audiences like the pedal to the floor! Sessions ought to be different. Expression and arrangements turn good music into great music.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:23 PM

Expression and arrangements turn good music into great music.

Ne'er a truer word was spoke - shout it from the rooftops...

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Tradsinger
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:47 PM

First of all, a corny joke - "How do you tell one Irish reel from another?" Answer "By the title".

Here's my thoughts on the subject. When I visited Ireland for the first time in early 70s, some West coast musicians were critical of the way tunes were played in say, Dublin, which was all fast and furious reels, whereas the Galway musicians played in a slower, lighter, more delicate and lilting style. When I went back to Ireland several decades later, my perception was that this regional difference had been lost and that even in Galway everyone was playing fast and furious reels. I am not making a judgement here, only an observation, but I did enjoy the old Galway music more.

Of course, it is exciting to hear tunes played fast but after a while I start to get 'fast tune overload'. To hear a slow jig played well excites different emotions. I must emphasise that I am not an expert on Irish music and these are just my observations and perceptions. I would welcome more postings on the East/West debate, though.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: terrier
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:49 PM

Maybe it's an alcohol related thing, no alcohol..good steady playing, a lot of alcohol..playing speeds up because musicians 'think' they can play the tunes faster, too much alcohol.. the tunes slow down again because the drunken musicians can't relate to their instruments any more!
I don't know if it's more difficult to play slowly, as Smokey suggests, but playing fast can mask a lot of the inability the musician has to play the correct notes.