Performance Ability does it matter?

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 09:28 AM

Jim Carroll

where do we go from here?

Well, you could go back and read my last post. What I am essentially saying there is that the policy promotes the pre-existing standard. Crap begets crap. Quality begets quality.

I don't think anybody is lying, I just think they may be misinterpreting what they see. For instance, in the post you refer to, the poster commented that the booked guests were disappointing. Perhaps they were the ones setting the standard for the floor singers. The evidence you produce yourself can be a little, shall we say, quirky. Citing an American guitarist playing what he described as jazz numbers on YouTube as an example of the parlous state of UK folk clubs was particularly bizarre.

I don't deny that there may be terrible clubs (but by all accounts, they seem to be successful in their own way) and places which may well call themselves folk clubs where you hearing nothing but Beatles songs or angst ridden singer/songwriters. I don't go to them. I have no need because there are plenty of clubs where people care about quality and share my love of traditional music and song. You seem not to believe that such places exist.

I did not respond to the practices at your club, but to your statement.

My statement was about the practices at our club so this is a distinction without a difference. Do you think we should change our policy or just keep it secret to avoid corrupting other clubs?

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:48 AM

ubject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Shimrod - PM
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:44 AM

"I know several people who simply cannot memorise lyrics, and yet produce wonderfully fine and professional renditions of songs with the words in front of them."

Trouble is, Don, I don't! I can't think of a single one.
I can, a girl who sang Whitby Whaler,when I was gigging at Robin Hoods Bay folk club last year .
an exception,but it can be done,however I prefer to see singer not using cribsheets.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:41 AM

"Jim says that to take the desire to perform as sufficient reason to give someone a floorspot is promoting crap standards. I know from personal, practical experience that he is wrong. That's all there is to it."
And I know from personal experience that it does and I've given one of those experiences; where do we go from here?
Others have also given such experiences - an entire thread, the one where this argument first began, was opened with a description of such an event - are we all lying?
I did not respond to the practices at your club, but to your statement.
I have never been to your club so how could I express an opinion of how it is run?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:02 AM

Pip Radish

Snail - I think Jim's quite specifically said that he doesn't think that what you do results in crap standards.

Really? I must have blinked and missed it.

Jim Carroll

Thank you Pip - that's what I have been saying all along.

Good. So, Jim, you are not saying that having a policy and practice of giving a floor spot to everybody who wants one results in crap standards. I am delighted to hear it. It leaves me a little confused by your previous statement -

In which case I don't feel the need to apologise for my remarks about promoting crap standard.

Pip Radish

But I don't know what stops amateurish performers turning up at your club.

Of course amateurish performers turn up at our club. They are (or most of them) amateur. I am an amateur. The word Jim is using is not amateurish, it is CRAP. We do not get CRAP performers turning up at your club. Sorry if that offends anybody, but that is the way it is.

Jim Carroll

he is prepared to advocate bad practice for other clubs.

I have never advocated any sort of practice for any other club. I have frequently championed the right of any club to organise its affairs in any way it sees fit. I have merely reported what we do and the results we observe. Despite your denials, you do seem to be saying that what we do is bad practice and results in crap standards.

Thanks for the kind comments, Will. Every club has its own culture and ethos which is self perpetuating. An invitation to perform is an invitation to join that culture. We have a group of residents who care very nuch about what they do. We have a loyal following of floor singers who have an equal commitment to what they are doing. That is the environment that new floor singers meet. I would hope that they would take inspirition from it rather than being scared off. If on the other hand, the club culture says that intonation doesn't matter and it's OK to read your words from an exercise book then that is the message that newcomers will get.

I don't see that I need to justify my position. Jim says that to take the desire to perform as sufficient reason to give someone a floorspot is promoting crap standards. I know from personal, practical experience that he is wrong. That's all there is to it.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:55 AM

""one club organiser recently put a time limit of (something like) two and a half minutes on the length of a song, thereby wiping out almost the entire ballad repertoire at a stroke.""

An entirely reprehensible action, and somewhat stupid, given that with fifty years experience I can only recall about a dozen folk songs that short.

I do recall one singer who almost made me set a time limit. He was a resident at a folk club I ran for seven years, and on guest nights when I asked him to do just one song he would invariably respond by singing ten to fifteen minute versions of either Long Lankin or Tamelin. I resisted the temptation, I'm still not sure how I did that.



""I do know that I can no longer follow the narrative of a song if it is buried under a barrage of accompaniment - when, in fact accompaniment ceases to accompany and instead dominates a song. this is one of the common problems with much of the singing I hear today.""

Here again I agree with you. Lyrics are what makes a song. Without them it is a tune. So if the music is so important as to warrant drowning out the singer, why have a singer at all. No matter what style or genre, a song should IMO carry the voice high in the mix, so that every word can be clearly heard.

At least that would solve the problem of years long arguments about what words Garfunkel actually sang in "Scarborough Fair", the answer to which Simon and Garfunkel themselves have forgotten.

At last, two points on which we can agree Jim.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:44 AM

"I know several people who simply cannot memorise lyrics, and yet produce wonderfully fine and professional renditions of songs with the words in front of them."

Trouble is, Don, I don't! I can't think of a single one.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Williams
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 05:18 AM

I know what you mean Banjiman, People won't do it unfortunately, but we should from time to time RECORD at home the piece we might play/sing at the next session and play it back thinking 'Would I want to listen to that?' and identify where the improvements can be made, - tuning, breathing etc.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 05:02 AM

I'm struggling to hold my own line here that anyone should be able to have a go at singarounds.

I was at a singers night recently where a couple of the "singers" were so awful that I just had to leave the room (sometimes I'm very glad to be a smoker!). And these were not nervous people doing there first ever spot just people who whatever they do they don't get any better.

On the one hand I defend their right to have a go..... but I really don't want to listen to it....really painful! A real dichotomy.

No idea how to handle that one.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:09 PM

A folk club in Montreal in the 1960s and 1970s (to the present day in fact) used to hold what I think UK people call open mics. The first 12(?) 'folkies' to put their names in were the lineup for the Sunday night. Some evenings ya'd get Jesse Winchester, Penny Lang, Chris Rawlings, Noah Zacharin, Tammy Bailiss, Gary Davis and others of similar quality. Some evenings it'd be kids new to music. The club is still going. (They don't serve booze--never have. They do serve music and coffee.)

Each performer had three songs with a total time not to exceed 15 minutes. I can recall very few Sunday nights when there was not a full house.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:01 PM

"10 of them to the same tune"

"For me that is not 10 songs, it's 10 sets of words."

But Richard, you may be missing the nuances of those songs.

"Tramps and Hawkers," "Paddy West," "Come My Little Son," and "Davey Faa" all use the same root tune, but are, or should be, sung quite differently,

Off the top of my head, I can think of five songs that use "Brighton Camp" for a melody, but are sung differently; a note added, a note left out, a different emphasis on the tempo, etc.

Only my tuppence - Tom

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:37 PM

"10 of them to the same tune"

For me that is not 10 songs, it's 10 sets of words.

I remain of the view that what makes a song a song, rather than a mere poem, is melody, dynamic, and rhythm.

That's not to say that accompaniment cannot be a menace - the piano for example is usually dreadful with folk song, but every so often someone is so restrained that it works well - I'd have to go to get the sleeves to bear it out but I think I have some of June Tabor's stuff in mind as wonderful (unlike some of her americana, which I cannot abide).

While the original forms should not be lost, to say that only they are valid is indeed to stultify the music.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:23 PM

Thank you Pip - that's what I have been saying all along.
If Bryan's club doesn't have occasion to apply the policy that everyone can sing of course it's not going to affect the club adversely - he have said time and again that he doesn't get bad singers turning up asking to sing, but he is prepared to advocate bad practice for other clubs. The discussion was not, as I said at the time, about his club, but a general one. I believe that it is what is being argued for here on this thread and fits in perfectly with the age-old "near enough for folk song" argument".
I certainly am not wriggling Bryan, it is you who is hiding behind this to avoid answering my questions.
jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:23 PM

Pip Radish:
But I don't know what stops amateurish performers turning up at your club. I mean, something must be stopping them - there are plenty of amateurish performers out there.

The Esteemed Snail has every right to disagree with me about this but, as I've said before (in a similar thread to this) I think the Lewes clubs have built up a strong local reputation for excellence. It's quite possible that local performers are aware of this reputation and take the trouble to be "presentable", for want of a better word, before doing a floor spot. Other local musicians I know have also expressed this view. As John Boden announced at a Bellowhead concert in Lewes last year, there are "more folk clubs per head of population in Lewes than in any other part of the country". Whether that's true or not I have no idea, but there is no question that the clubs and sessions in and around Lewes have good reputations, for good reasons.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:06 PM

I think the accompaniment can be a great carrier for the narrative - since we are on 60/70 electric folk-rock, let's take Tam Lin, or maybe Matty Groves. The accompanment punctuates those versions and adds to the dramatic effect.[quote]
I disagree, [imo]it wrecks the narrative.
in my opinion ,its easier to sing the child ballads,more effectively without accompaniment,there are occasionally exceptions.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:03 PM

Snail - I think Jim's quite specifically said that he doesn't think that what you do results in crap standards.

What he's also said - and I tend to agree with him - is that your expressed policy seems likely to create quality problems, and that it's surprising that it doesn't in your case. In my experience, evenings with a completely open policy almost invariably feature at least one performance from somebody who's either not giving their utmost or doesn't have much utmost to give.

Where I disagree with Jim is that I don't think the occasional substandard performer is a big deal; I certainly don't think that less able performers are doing the scene much harm.

But I don't know what stops amateurish performers turning up at your club. I mean, something must be stopping them - there are plenty of amateurish performers out there.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:50 PM

Jim Carroll

It is your statement that I believe promotes bad standards; I have no idea how you put it into practice

I have stated our policy and practice quite clearly several times. Stop wriggling Jim. What evidence do you have that what we do results in crap standards?

I'll tackle your other points when you've had the honesty to answer that.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:03 PM

Sorry Richard,
Didn't make my point too well.
The cantometrics team was set up to assess dominant features in traditional singing throughout the world.
'Wordy' was in no way a criticism, rather an observation that English language singing was 'word intensive' compared to, say Spanish Canto Hondo, which is largely musically dominated.
Traditional singers like Tom Lenihan constantly stressed that the object was to get the tune to fit the words, rather than the other way round.
The most extreme case of this was of two brothers, both excellent singers, we recorded here in Clare about thirty years ago. Between them they gave us around 20 songs – 10 of them to the same tune. They obviously regarded the tune as a vehicle for carrying the text.
As I said earlier, all too often, for me anyway, accompaniment quite often doesn't (accompany, that is), but rather, dominates the text rather than underlining it, which is probably why our English (and Irish and Scots) traditions are unaccompanied ones.
As far as folk rock went (t.b.t.g.), it was, for me, very much a case of totally overwriting the texts with (more often than not) overloud music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:58 PM

Right at this moment I'm listening to No Roses, Shirley Collins and the Albion Country Band. The Murder of Maria Marten is, for me, the perfect combination of the power of the accompaniment and the power of the narrative. The rather creepy effect of the cart on the gravel road caps it all rather well.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:50 PM

I mistrust that word "wordy" - it so often means that the user cannot be bothered to read or listen to so many words.

Words the songs have indeed - the main ballads many of them, yet the versions of the great ballads show that the words can change while the song remains the same.

Likewise they have melodies and rhythms (or did until some colectors forgot to collect those bits) and increasingly they do have them again as the songs are put to new melodies and rhythms. I did not say that the words were secondary. I said that the music was not. People remember songs for their melodies and rhythms. Once they ahve those they may go on to remember the words.

Nothing to stop words having music. If they don't they are at most poems but not songs.

I think the accompaniment can be a great carrier for the narrative - since we are on 60/70 electric folk-rock, let's take Tam Lin, or maybe Matty Groves. The accompanment punctuates those versions and adds to the dramatic effect.

Long Lankin drives me to distraction - my sympathy is for stone mason unjustly bankrupted because the lord would not pay him!

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:30 PM

"To say that the songs are narrative first and music second is surely a personal judgment"
Sorry, missed that Richard.
If it is, it is a judgement based on how our songs are structured - Lomax in his cantometrics study described English language songs as 'wordy'.
With a few exceptions our songs are narratives; the ballads even more so - miss a line in a ballad and you've 'lost the plot' so to speak.
If the narrative is secondary, what's the point of the text - why not just sing gibberish.
Songs without narrative interpretation are the equivalent of miming Hamlet - an exercise in the absurd.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:23 PM

Sminky
"Jim, are you saying that today's singers are incapable of that? "
No I am not; I am saying that I am quite often left with the impression that belief, involvement and interpretation are not considerations with many singers, just technical presentation, often extremely skillful, but on its own, unmoving.
I have attempted to discuss it with some singers, particularly some of the 'yoof' and it seems not to have even occurred to any of them.
For me, the best example was a Steeleye Span recording of the ballad Lamkin which I found it on the juke box of a pub I was working at. I put it on in my lunchtime and remember thinking - "Jesus, this is booooooring". Then, half way through the ballad they went into an Irish reel and I realised they'd become bored with what they were doing as well.
"Is that their fault - or yours? "
I quite honestly don't know - I am increasingly aware of my deteriorating faculties - maybe I've lost my power of concentration.
I do know that I can no longer follow the narrative of a song if it is buried under a barrage of accompaniment - when, in fact accompaniment ceases to accompany and instead dominates a song. this is one of the common problems with much of the singing I hear today.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:12 PM

To say that the songs are narrative first and music second is surely a personal judgment, a foible or whim. The modern versions of the songs are plainly interpretations of them. All you are saying is that you do not like them. That's a row and spat I have had more than once - I know my version of "the Innocent Hare" does offend some: I don't do it the way the Coppers did. But its the song my local traveller friends ask me to do more often than any other. And I remember a professional singer seen at many festivals saying my version (closely inspired by the Young Tradition) of Byker Hill (the modern hymn tune version) was awful - we were shouting (allegedly). Funny that, it's the song I get asked for across the board more than any other.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:10 PM

"I am also delighted to discover that there is an organisation called ITMA in Dublin."
I hear that the new chairperson is someone called Mona Lott...

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:38 AM

Singers technical abilities varied, depending on age, health, practice, varied from superb to poor, but every one of them, without exception, brought something of value to their songs, interpretation, involvement, belief, experience.

Jim, are you saying that today's singers are incapable of that?

For me, any interpretation of a song has to arise from its narrative; I got no such interpretation from any of the clips.

Is that their fault - or yours?

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:24 AM

Sinister:
I had no idea I had commented on your singing - doesn't mean I wouldn't have if I had known - sing in public and you should expect comments - doesn't mean you have to agree with them.
For me, any interpretation of a song has to arise from its narrative; I got no such interpretation from any of the clips.
Bryan:
My statement was aimed at the comment that all that was needed to sing in public was the desire to do so - nothing else. It is your statement that I believe promotes bad standards; I have no idea how you put it into practice
You later went on to say that you don't get bad singers turning up to sing at your club and appeared to use that as an argument that they were a figment of our imagination, contrary to what others have said (including the person who started that particular thread)
Aren't there any bad wannabes in Sussex; have you scared them all off - tell us the secret of your success and make these threads redundant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:06 AM

Bryan:
"No, Jim, you are not mistaken..."
I which case I don't feel the need to apologise for my remarks about promoting crap standard.

Oh dear. we were doing so well. Tell me Jim, what evidence do you have that our policy leads to crap standards?

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:36 AM

I had no idea I have commented on your singing - have I - were you one of the sound clips I referred to?

I'm afraid so. I linked to Jim Moray's Lord Bateman, Sean's King Henry and, er, something else by someone else. I can understand (although I don't quite share) your reaction to the Jim Moray - I had to listen to it three times before I noticed that he was singing a different version from the one I'm familiar with. I don't think Sean's performance deserved tarring with the same brush.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM

"And there's me thinking that 35 years of traditional song and ballad performance at least counted for something."
I had no idea I have commented on your singing - have I - were you one of the sound clips I referred to?
"So, on the one hand, Jim, you're telling us that the so-called source singers were at best clapped-out old duffers........."
I'm telling you no such thing, please don't put words in my mouth.
For a start - I have never commented on the abilities of source singers; I don't go there - "clapped out old duffers" is your somewhat offensive term, not mine. I was referring to their own perception of their singing ability, not mine. I certainly never claimed that their self-modesty had any basis.
Most of the source singers we knew and/or listened to were getting on in years; many had not had an audience for their songs for decades; Walter Pardon, prior to his being taken up by the revival, had only ever sung one song (Dark Eyed sailor - "nobody wanted that") in front of an audience, including his family.
Singers technical abilities varied, depending on age, health, practice, varied from superb to poor, but every one of them, without exception, brought something of value to their songs, interpretation, involvement, belief, experience. Sam Larner at 80 plus could sing the socks of virtually any revival singer I have heard. Mary Delaney, one of the finest singers we recorded, who was a chronic asthmatic who was breathing from a bottle last time we saw her, was capable of bringing tears to my eyes (and her own) with her singing- at the time we were her only audience.
There are exceptions of course; Scots and Irish Travellers kept their singing tradition much longer than the settled communities.
"I would say that the robustness of traditional song is far greater...."
I would have said that twenty odd years ago, until we witnessed the Irish Travellers' singing tradition disappear over the space of 18 months when it became possible to go into Woolworth's and buy a portable television. Nowadays none of them sing the old songs; "We've all been modernised" one of them told us.
"wanly elitist efforts of The Revival"
Have you ever spoken to traditional singers and asked them what they thought of their songs?
Walter Pardon filled tape after tape talking about how he approached his songs, how he identified with them, comparing them (somewhat unfavourably) to the pop songs of the early 20th century and to the music hall songs he knew. Tom Lenihan spoke for hours on 'the right way to sing the songs, 'The Blás', comparing his approach to what he called 'the modern way of singing. These singers all had something 'academic' to say about their art - for that is what it was and that is how many of them approached it.
Tell me how robust, for instance, the ballads are when they disappear entirely from the clubs becaust they are 'too long' - one club organiser recently put a time limit of (something like) two and a half minutes on the length of a song, thereby wiping out almost the entire ballad repertoire at a stroke.   
Going on too long again.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:55 AM

Had a quickish read through this thread.

Performance ability is more important than musical ability if it comes to the crunch.   A good performer does not need to be an amazing singer or musicain - though they should of course be adequate. They convey their personality and what they are trying to achieve in their music effectively to the audience that goes home happy.

Sleepy Rosie a few postings back sums it up about the good musicians who are totally and utterly boring. Unless that's exactly what you as their punter have gone to see - they are a big yawn.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:20 AM

"Don't forget the diver, sir!"
I'd pictured you as being much younger than that - ah well...


The sad part is, I am - I heard a repeat of ITMA once (possibly the only time it's been repeated) and a couple of the catchphrases have stuck in my mind forever after.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:14 AM

as having more to do with not particularly inspiring pop music than with folk song

And there's me thinking that 35 years of traditional song and ballad performance at least counted for something. I guess not, because all this while I've been doing pop music - and a not particularly inspiring pop music at that!

So, on the one hand, Jim, you're telling us that the so-called source singers were at best clapped-out old duffers whose imperfect ability to remember the songs far outweighed their ability to actually sing them, and on the other you dismiss out of hand anyone who might take those songs and interpret them according to the dynamic of their own era; a dynamic which nevertheless references the tradition, however so far removed from from the folk form (whatever that might be).

I would say that the robustness of traditional song is far greater than the somewhat preciously autistic notions inherent in the Folk Movement, in the faux-purism of which are sown the seeds of its own inevitable demise, not in people taking a fresh look at such songs whilst conveniently bypassing wanly elitist efforts of The Revival which only ever served to compound the academic elitism that gave rise to it in the first place.

Personally, when it comes to recorded folk music, I only ever listen to these clapped out old duffers doddering in their rustic dotage as they stumble on vainly trying to remember which song it is they're singing. Singers like Davie Stewart for example, as recorded by Lomax in 1957 when he would have been a sprightly 56 - a veritable youngster given the average age of most folk clubs I attend these days! Next time I listen to The Tarves Rant I must remember that this is a remembering of a song, and not a performance.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:47 AM

Well said Snail.

Performance standards and ability do of course matter - we would and should all like to be better than we are - but if folk are not allowed to sing it, it is no longer folk music.

And no, that does not mean that if people sing it it is necessarily folk music.

I would have thought that it went without saying that people msut be permitted to adapt folk song, and perform in the style they see fit. Folk is not about form, but derivation. I still listen to 60s and 70s electric folk - and indeed have learned (by ear) a number of songs from there - that I do acoustic. So the wheel completes the circle. I do however see the problem sometimes - how could anyone learn the melody line or words of "The Setting of the Sun" from the Seth Lakeman version? But by comparing that version to the less modern version that I do, I have sent more than a couple of people off on a voyage of enquiry.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:31 AM

"On a thread not so long ago, I've seen you Jim C. condemning a series of submitted musical links to widely varying interpretations of traditional songs, as *all* akin to utterly crappy 'pop' music!"
The links that were put up struck me, at the time as having more to do with not particularly inspiring pop music than with folk song. Sure, they were all traditional songs, but they were performed in such a way as to make the drawing of any interpretation from them virtually impossible, to my aging ears, at least. The 'folk' form had been totally abandoned and the narrative relegated into the far distant background.
Nothing 'wrong' or 'unprincipled' about this; but by shedding their form they had become something else. I'm more than happy to sit with my feet up and listen to Butterworth's 'Banks of Green Willow' till I've worn the disc paper-thin, but as beautiful as it is, it has nothing whatever to do with a woman and her illegitimate child being cast adrift in an open boat.
The problem with a pop song is that, unless it is particularly spectacular it has a very short shelf life. The 'Electric Folk' fad might have caused a bit of a ripple outside the folk scene at the time, but who listens to it now?
Our folk songs have lasted for centuries because down the generations people have been able to identify with them and adapt them to their own particular lives, emotions and experiences - for me, there was simply nothing to identify with.
Abandoning the basic function of the songs isn't saving them, it's just prolonging the agony of their demise - sorry!!!.
Bryan:
"No, Jim, you are not mistaken..."
I which case I don't feel the need to apologise for my remarks about promoting crap standard.
Pip:
"Don't forget the diver, sir!"
I'd pictured you as being much younger than that - ah well...
ITMA - Irish Traditional Music Archive, which is housed in a beautiful six story Georgian building in Merrion Square in the centre of Dublin - reckoned to be the finest archive of traditional music in Europe, if not the world - amazing what you can achieve when you apply standards - people actually begin to take you as seriously as you take yourself!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:15 AM

Will, "Can I do you now, sir"

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:12 AM

Perform? "I don't mind if do..."

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:00 AM

Pip,
       "It`s that man again,
         It`s that man again.........."

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:49 AM

I am also delighted to discover that there is an organisation called ITMA in Dublin.

Don't forget the diver, sir!

(And you know, if you tell these young people today they just wouldn't see what was funny. Sad but true.)

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:51 AM

Glad to hear about the archives, Jim. When you said "leave it on the shelf " I had images of that shelf being in your back bedroom and ending up in the skip when you the house clearers come in when you finally pop your clogs. I am also delighted to discover that there is an organisation called ITMA in Dublin.

I would still like to know if I was mistaken in thinking that you proposed that the only criterion for having someone sing in public was that they should want to.

No, Jim, you are not mistaken. That is what I said. I have said it several times now. Just to be absolutely sure, I will say it again.

We, at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, hold it as a principle that anybody who wants a floorspot can have one.

To elaborate, we don't just wait for them to ask; everybody is asked if they would like to perform. The residents will stand back to make time if necessary.

Is that clear enough?

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:33 AM

Don,
Am confused - who are these 'acknowledged greats' I am referring to; I assumed you were talking about the source singers and responded accordingly. Sharp didn't record his source singers to any extent as far as we know; Grainger did, but most of his recordings are in such poor condition that as to render them unlistenable.
I think you will find that Sharp, if he was interested in his singers as singers, never passed on any of his findings to the wider world. His interest was in taking down their songs; we know very little about how his singers sang, nor what he thought of them as performers. This has remained the case with collecting and because of it we know almost nothing of the singing tradition from the point of view of the singers themselves.
It was not my intention to 'choose your reading matter for you' any more than I believe it was yours to choose my listening material when you wrote "listen sometime to the original source recordings of some of those," - we are passing on information (I hope in a friendly way, but that doesn't always work out).
Nor did I accuse you of adopting a 'near enough for folk' attitude; this is the theme of this, and many other similar threads and I was making a general point.
"I strongly suspect that any of those source singers who had turned up (had that been possible) at a folk club run by your good self, would indeed have been discouraged from coming again, because their ability was not up to your high standard."
Why should you suspect this? We collected songs from exactly the type of singer you described and took them around the clubs whenever we were asked to. The problem was not in getting them to sing, rather it was finding the clubs interested enough to book them. Pat, my wife arranged regular tours for Walter Pardon around the tiny, tiny circle of clubs who were interested enough to have him.
You appear to be making wild assumptions about me and my work based on ..... what???
"Fortunately the collectors had more time, tolerance, and patience."
I hope you include me in that comment - I have been a collector for thirty six years, which would make it around ten years longer than you have been around the folk scene - but who's counting.
Now finally - don't want to go on too long - what are my high standards?
I have suggested that a singer should have done enough work beforehand to at least remember the words, sing in tune and have enough understanding of the text to be able to give an interpretation.
Is that too much to ask or isn't our music worth even that small effort?
Finally, finally - you might have read Shela Stewart's 'Queen Amang The Heather'. but I don't know where you will have read what Walter Pardon, Tom Lenihan or Mary Delaney had to say on the subject as they are all lying on the shelves of the British Library as part of our unpublished (apart from a a miniscule bit of Walter here and there) collection .
Jim Carroll
PS Not ignoring your comments Rosie, but this is far too long as it is - will respond later.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:52 PM

And as far as stage craft is concerned, it can't be learned anywhere but on a stage.[quote Don Firth]
I partly agree with you Don ,I think it can be learned on stage ,but it can also be taught, as acting can ,in rehearsal .
Ewan MacColl had a drama back ground,and was a fine presenter whose stage craft was second to none,I think his drama experience taught him a lot ,and helped him present his performances well .
so stage craft can be taught ,and practised .
Professor Alexander[Alexander technique],was a person who took presentation of performance very seriously,and believed it could be taught .
presentation of performance,equals stagecraft .

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:46 PM

Incidentally Jim, I have been around the folk scene for half a century, so I don't really need anyone to choose my reading matter for me, but, just so you'll know, I have read most of those.


I strongly suspect that any of those source singers who had turned up (had that been possible) at a folk club run by your good self, would indeed have been discouraged from coming again, because their ability was not up to your high standard.

Fortunately the collectors had more time, tolerance, and patience.

I would love to know how many times in the twentieth century, somebody has discovered a long unnoticed manuscript with a new song, or a new version of an old song, which has been lost forever because he WAS discouraged by the reception his mediocre voice got at some club.

We'll never know, but it's worth contemplating don't you think?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:28 PM

Jim, as I suspect you already know, I was not referring to the acknowledged greats who picked up the songs that the likes of C Sharp recorded, but rather to the singers of whom those recordings were made.

Listen sometime to the original source recordings of some of those, and you will understand what I meant.

BTW, where exactly in my two posts did I suggest anything akin to "near enough for folk"?

Shimrod, while I do stand by my first statement about learning and practising, I must take issue with you on the subject of reading either words or music.

I know several people who simply cannot memorise lyrics, and yet produce wonderfully fine and professional renditions of songs with the words in front of them. It is also true that classical musicians play from the scores most of the time, and nobody belittles THEIR talent for that. I would hate to miss a fine performance because an organiser vetoed that.

Some performers will always do a bad job, whether from lack of talent or lack of care, but it generally has naught to do with whether or no they read from book or sheet.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:59 PM

"Nobody should ever be willing to perform at a standard below the best of which he/she is capable. That requires learning tune and lyrics, practising until both come easily and consistently, and also gaining experience of performing at all types of venue."

Amen to that!

And most people, if they push themselves a bit, can at least make an effort and get beyond mumbling the words from an exercise book.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:10 PM

"If we don't make a good job of them they will die and we will be unable to pass them on to the next generation"

I'm not going to plead ignorance anymore, as I guess I am to some degree (much as I find it difficult to claim 'youth' in my thirties!) the 'next generation', being probably a generation or even two behind the bulk of posters here....

On a thread not so long ago, I've seen you Jim C. condemning a series of submitted musical links to widely varying interpretations of traditional songs, as *all* akin to utterly crappy 'pop' music. I have to confess that my jaw dropped at some of your words there!

If the younger generation are to be bequeathed these songs so that they may truly survive, then IMO there must be broad allowances for the creative inventiveness of the young - for indeed the 'tradition is dead' as you say, so perhaps in its stead, may there be allowed for a New Tradition (Aye, even in the words of the infamous Lizzie Cornish!).

Fortunately IMO, there does indeed appear to be a fresh burst of green life in the old tree yet. Lots of viril young twenty sumthings are picking up drum, fiddle and exploring strange auld ballads for their work..
If that's crappy pop, then I look forward to the future arrival of: "Now That's What I Call Traditional Song Top Ten!"

About Trad Song, I keep hearing of the prime importance of communicating STORY, and if this is so, then of paramount importance is the succesfully communicating that story to an audience who wil both give a shit about the story you are telling and actually be able to aesthetically respond to the medium of communication. If it is true that the most important thing in trad song is the communication of story, then while the stories may remain the same, the delivery of them may IMO quite legitimately evolve to suit the audience.

In this respect, the 'tradition' IMO might be well served following the flexiblitly of drama, which despite the continuity of interest in more 'traditional' renderings of plays, has never been stifling of new thought or remained static. In fact the opposite is true, inventiveness of production play massive importance to the full and successful *communication* of various interpretations of the same ancient story to each new audience.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:26 PM

Diane Easby: "A guest artist will have come with a setlist, likewise a named session leader. To perform material strongly associated with them without even asking them first if they intend to include the item is not only bad practice but very bad manners."

I totally turned your comments around in my head somehow, to read quite the opposite statement. Doh!

I now get what you say, and for sure agree.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:09 PM

We are not traditional singers and we have no right to use the skills or otherwise of the older singers as an excuse for bad singing.
We took the songs of Sharp's, Grainger's, Greig's and all the other pioneers singers and we owe it to the memory of those singers to make as good a job as possible of their gift to us.
Thirty odd years among such singers has convinced me that they respected and loved the songs they gave us and did their best when asked for their songs. They forever apologised for "not being able to sing well any more" or, not being able to "make as good a job of it as my father" or "my mother" or "the old man who taught me the song".
The "near enough for folk song" attitude so often displayed on threads like these is a profound insult to the people who were generous to pass on the songs to us.
Go and read what Belle Stewart had to say about the necessity of good singing, or listen to what Tom Lenihan or Walter Pardon or Mary Delaney had to say on the subject.
It is not a matter of discouraging "poor performers from singing" rather it is a case of persuading them to do justice to the songs they have taken on loan. If we don't make a good job of them they will die and we will be unable to pass them on to the next generation and will have betrayed a trust.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:51 PM

Having made that point, of course performance ability matters greatly.

Nobody should ever be willing to perform at a standard below the best of which he/she is capable. That requires learning tune and lyrics, practising until both come easily and consistently, and also gaining experience of performing at all types of venue.

When it comes to judging who should, or should not, be allowed to perform, I will pass, because I truly do not believe that I should assume that MY subjective opinion gives me the right to do so.

I know some people who think my work is rubbish, and others who think it worth travelling twenty miles and paying to hear it.

You pays yer money, and...........

Don T.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:41 PM

"Depends if you want your music (whatever music) to survive - if you don't, no, it doesn't matter - who gives a toss about badly performed music?
Jim Carroll"

C Sharp travelled around the country, as did a number of others over the years, with the intention of recording the folk songs of our ancestors, as passed down through the centuries.

I have heard many song recordings of country people who, in the main, were far from being polished professional performers.

I think that devotees of traditional folk music (among whom I DO number myself, in spite of also writing songs) should be grateful that some of today's enthusiasts were not around to discourage poor performers from singing.

Had they been around there would IMO be a much smaller, not to say weaker, tradition.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM

"I will sit through an entire night of someone who doesn't play well and can't sing as long as they are entertaining. There is a difference between entertainment and performance. I've sat through pristine and clinical piano work that was performed perfectly. But I wasn't entertained. And I have heard a haphazard and slapdashed evening of key board work that had me on the floor in tears. I ws entertained.

It all comes down to the quality of the performer, not the quality of the performance at to whether the show is entertaining."

Aye, I think you have is spot on here. Whatever the 'art' is, however brilliantly technically executed a performance may be, it still does not assure any communication of charisma, charm, warmth, and all those other 'human' elements which are essential to making something deeply *pleasureable* to partake of.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 01:18 PM

The question, Insane Suspender, was not whether it ever happened or even whether it should happen but whether it was, as Jim seems to believe, typical of what is going on in UK folk clubs.

And my point, my dear Gastropod, was that whatever may or may be typical of what goes on in UK folk clubs, the rules will always be proven by the exceptions which are themselves the human currency of a music that must be primarily defined by context rather than content. Folk Music is about folks doing music; amateurs with a passion very often greater than their ability, but only in the eyes of certain musos who might snide & sneer from the sidelines, but at the expense of the decency & camaraderie inherent in the very fabric of Folk, with but few exceptions. I'm sure the same is true of Lewes (...20 hours solemn walk...); an encompassing & supportive community of like-minds and old friends communing through the medium of Folk Song, however so wobbly the occasional performance might be.

The Great Suspender