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Lyr Req: Mynd i Rymni (Welsh)

melodeonboy 06 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM
melodeonboy 07 Mar 09 - 08:28 AM
Jim Dixon 08 Mar 09 - 01:39 PM
Mr Happy 08 Mar 09 - 01:50 PM
sian, west wales 09 Mar 09 - 05:55 AM
melodeonboy 09 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM
Jim Dixon 09 Mar 09 - 08:17 AM
sian, west wales 09 Mar 09 - 09:05 AM
melodeonboy 09 Mar 09 - 09:51 AM
melodeonboy 09 Mar 09 - 11:35 AM
GUEST 09 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM
sian, west wales 09 Mar 09 - 02:31 PM
Snuffy 09 Mar 09 - 03:17 PM
Azizi 21 May 09 - 08:25 AM
Azizi 21 May 09 - 08:45 AM
Azizi 21 May 09 - 09:15 AM
sian, west wales 21 May 09 - 10:27 AM
sian, west wales 27 Jul 09 - 01:34 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Mynd i Rymni
From: melodeonboy
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM

Does anyone have the lyrics for "Mynd i Rymni"? It was on the Rag Foundation CD "Minka", circa 1999.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: melodeonboy
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:28 AM

Adnewyddu!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 01:39 PM

MYND I RYMNI is performed by Rag Foundation on "Minka," (Cyhoeddiadau Mwldan CD 220, 2000), "The Rough Guide to the Music of Wales" (World Music Network CD 1052, 2000) and on " World Music: The #1 Tracks from the #1 World Music Albums of the Year" (Manteca CD 202, 2000). It is called "traditional."

The band has a MySpace page.

Google Books indicates that the phrase "mynd i rymni" appears in "Language Obsolescence and Revitalization: Linguistic Change in Two Sociolinguistically Contrasting Welsh Communities" by Mari C. Jones (Oxford University Press, 1998).

Google also asks, 'Did you mean "Mynd i Rhymni"?' (note spelling)

I was unable to find lyrics, or any more information.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 01:50 PM

Didn't the Mamas & Papas do this way back when?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:55 AM

I can't find my copy of Minka, but is it "Ar y ffordd wrth fynd i Rymni"? (note: when there is a ^ following a letter, it should be sitting on top of that letter. if it is not followed by a space, the word should be joined up.)

Ar y ffordd wrth fynd i Rymni,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Cwrddyd nes a^ dyn a mwnci,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Yn dod adre'n lled anhwylus,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Wedi wado naw o Badis,
Victoria, Victoria,
Very well a-done Jim Cro.

Ar y ffordd wrth fynd i Henllan,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Cyfarfu^m a^ bachgen bychan,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Ac wrth im' ag ef ymgomio
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Bachgen oedd a^ bechgyn iddo,
Victoria, Victoria,
Very well a-done Jim Cro.

Mi fu^m gynt yn caru Saesnes,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Cloben felen fawr anghynnes,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Ond pan soniai am briodi
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
"No indeed I will not marry!"
Victoria, Victoria,
Very well a-done Jim Cro.

Dacw 'nghariad ar y dyffryn,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Llygad hwch a dannedd mochyn,
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
A dau droed fel gwadan arad'
Very well a-done Jim Cro,
Fel tulluan mae hi'n siarad,
Victoria, Victoria,
Very well a-done Jim Cro.

That one?

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: melodeonboy
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM

Yes, indeed, that's the one! Excellent.

Diolch yn fawr, Sian.

(By the way, I assume that "Mynd i Rhymni" is grammatically wrong and that it has to be "Mynd i Rymni" due to the soft mutation caused by the preposition "i" which would alter initial "Rh" to "R". I'm a Man of Kent, not a Welshman, so I stand to be corrected!)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:17 AM

In The Voyager's Companion and Adviser by Henry John Webber (London: published by the author, 1885) this is quoted from a "highly patriotic" chantey:

Victoria! Victoria! very well done, Jim Crow-oo!
Victoria! Victoria! very well done, Jim Crow!

An article in The Christian Science Journal/Volume 5 ? Issue 11 ? February, 1888/THE FIRST DAY OF VACATION/Page 572, quotes the following chantey lines:

There was a lady in our town
Very well done Jim Crow!
Her name it was Susannah Brown,
Very well done Jim Crow-oh-oh!

Victoria, Victoria
Very well done Jim Crow-oh-oh
Victoria, Victoria.
Very well done Jim Crow!

[Further, the reporter implies that the following variation was improvised while the crew was loading a brindled cow:]

There was a cow lived in our barn,
Very well done Old Cow!
Who never yet had come to harm,
Very well done Old Cow-ow-ow!

George Washington, George Washington
Very well done old Cow-ow-ow!
George Washington George Washington,
Very well done old Cow!

There was a trapdoor in our barn ...
Through which Old Brindle came to harm ...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:05 AM

melodeonboy, yes - soft mutation following 'i'.

Thanks for those references, Jim. I can't remember hearing of the shanty before but I've heard quite a few discussions of macaronic songs in Wales and, given the maritime heritage, it's entirely likely that the phrases were picked up from the sailing community. Here's the bit from the song notes in "Canu'r Cymru II":

"Tune and verse come from a folksong collection submitted for a competition in the Colwyn Bay Eisteddfod of 1910. The competitor probably came from Southwest Wales and he noted that he had collected this song 'in the Vale of Aeron and in the district around Talysarn' in Cardiganshire. However the words quoted describe a humourous encounter on the way to Rhymni in the industrial south; the period is made plain by the reference to a victory over nine 'Paddies'** or Irishmen. The tune is a version of 'Hob y Deri Dando', first published in 1794 in 'Musical and Poetical Relicks of the Welsh Bards' (Edward Jones, London)and said there to be a South Wales variant. The metre is trochaic tetrameter quatrains with an interlaced macaronic burden. Verses 2, 3 and 4 have been added from traditional sources for this edition."

**Wedi wado naw o Badis

A further note to v's 2,3,4, it is the Welsh tradition to string together floating verses according to taste. It comes up often when discussing Welsh songs. Commercial publishing has the unfortunate side effect of having people think that you can only sing one specific set of words to a given melody ...

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: melodeonboy
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:51 AM

Curiouser and curiouser! Thanks, Jim.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: melodeonboy
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 11:35 AM

And thanks again, Sian. Interesting stuff!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:15 PM

The song probably originated in America and has nothing to do with Queen Victoria.

In the 1920s JM Carpenter collected versions of a shanty which he called Victorio from James Forman of Leith, James Dwyer of Glasgow and Andrew Salters of Greenock. The alternative title is Very Well Done Jim Crow. Go to the Carpenter Collection website and type in Victorio. I have (very brief) mp3s of two of these, and the verse form seems very similar to the Rag Foundation song. I will check out the tune if I can get hold of a download from Minka .

A bit of research yields the information that Victorio was an Apache chief who led a rebellion in 1879/80 which was put down by the 9th and 10th Cavalry. These were African-American regiments, the famed Buffalo Soldiers.

My guess is that the song probably originated on stage "back east", shortly after Victorio's defeat, as a patriotic song in praise of the "Jim Crow" cavalry for defeating the "savage" Indians.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:31 PM

That would make sense. There are a number of songs in Wales that were brought back by Welsh Americans. Many of the songs were from the popular stage of the time, including Minstrel shows.

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics for Mynd i Rymni
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:17 PM

Oops, that nameless guest at 2:15 was me, posting from work. My hard disk died on Friday, and I obviously forgot to log on when I got back to the Cat this afternoon.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mynd i Rymni (Welsh)
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 09 - 08:25 AM

I just became aware of this thread and appreciate learning about the existence of Welsh songs which mention "Jim Crow. I knew that African American soldiers in the Western USA states were called I can understand how people who aren't hat familiar with USA culture would refer to them as "Jim Criw:,

As an African American let me some admittedly random thoughts on the term "Jim Crow:"

IMO, the term "Jim Crow" isn't well known to many contemporary African Americans. I believe that only a few Black people nowadays who are under the age 50 years know (have read about, have studied; have directly experienced)Jim Crow the "Jim Crow" period in United States history (1876 and 1965). While the history of the Jim Crow period probably is mentioned in schools as part of a course in USA history,, those times may seem to children and teens to be "ancient history". Similarly, IMO, few Black people nowadays know hardly any African American spirituals and Civil Rights songs. And even fewer African Americans know any 19th century "plantation" dance songs, and even less know any shanteys. I believe that we Black people must do a much better job of teaching our history and cultures-but the point I'm trying to make is that because the term "Jim Crow" isn't well known, it's likely not to be used as a taunting phrase.

Perhaps another reason why I don't think that we (Black Americans) have considered "Jim Crow" to be a pejorative (slur) is that it doesn't appear to be a term that has been personalized like the "n-word" has been. If someone (Black or non-Black) did call a Black person a "Jim Crow", he or she might get the implied put down of black skin color and respond as they usually response to taunts.* But, as I said, I've never read or heard or experienced such taunts myself.

* Unfortunately, many Black people still respond negatively to being called Black. A child who could even be the same skin color as another child might taught that child by calling him or her "blackie" or "African". Usually this-still-results in angry exchanges or fist fights. However, I was glad to observe one situation in the public school where I sometimes substitute teach that one 9 or 10 year old boy (who was considerably lighter than another boy in that class called the boy "blackie" and the boy said "So?" While I tried to redirect them back to the "Art" lesson I was teaching, the light skinned boy then called the other boy an African, and that boy said "We all are Africans" all the students in the class were African Americans. I think the second boy's response might have been influenced by the fact that I had previously had this class and had shown them examples of African material such as kente cloth and also had brought in various African musical instruments for them to play. But I still saw that exchange as progress.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mynd i Rymni (Welsh)
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 09 - 08:45 AM

It also occurs to me that before the Jim Crow song was taken up as a minstrel song and before the phrase "Jim Crow" became a symbol for the USA segregationist laws and practices, it was just one of many imitative African American bird dances. Part of African American tradition was-and to a far lesser extent still is-to compose dance movements that imitate/d birds or animals. Instructional dance movement songs -or at least songs that referenced those dances-were and still are part of the African American tradition.

The phrase "cutting the pigeon's wing" in the 19th century (or earlier) African American dance song "Juba" (this and Juba that) is a somewhat familiar [to persons interested in folk music] example of a song that refers to a imitative bird movement.

The 1960s R&B song and dance "The Funky Chicken" is a recycled version of the same theme as is the "Chicken Noodle Soup" dance craze of a few years ago.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mynd i Rymni (Welsh)
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 09 - 09:15 AM

Sorry. I failed to include the hyperlink in a sentence in my 21 May 09 - 08:25 AM post and that next sentence has a couple of typos.

Here are the two corrected sentences:

I knew that African American soldiers in the Western USA states were called Buffalo soldiers. I can understand how people who aren't that familiar with USA culture would refer to them as "Jim Crow".

-snip-

All the other typos will have to fend for themselves. :o)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mynd i Rymni (Welsh)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 May 09 - 10:27 AM

Azizi, thanks! Your posts are always enlightening! I've never been completely comfortable with the two Welsh songs (Gwenno Penygelli and Mynd i Rymni) as I wasn't sure if they could cause offence. Your input here helps a lot.

And I loved your story of the boy who put down those taunts with a simple, "So?" What a mature response, and an attitude that bodes well for the future.

As I said in my PM, I've decided to write an article for the magazine my organization publishes on the discussion we've had here. (Mudcat will be credited of course!) I think there are a lot of Welsh who will be interested.

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mynd i Rymni (Welsh)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 01:34 PM

Well, the article is published, and thanks to Jim, Azizi and Snuffy for their help. And to Mudcat too, of course.

You can see it online at
Ontrac, page 15.

I've had a few people already contact us saying how much they enjoyed the article - and at least one of them is a bona fide academic in the field ... so that's alright then!

sian


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