Thought for the Day (June 30)

Subject: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 10:31 AM

"Smoking may not be portrayed as health-promoting or harmless."

"Images that create the impression that smoking is a sign of masculinity are barred."

"Tobacco advertising may not be directed at sportsmen."

"Advertising for tobacco products may not be conducted in films, using billboards or posters, at sports fields and racetracks...in or on public transportation."

Code of Advertising Practice for Tobacco Companies, Nazi Germany (Reichgesundheitsfuhrer, Dr. Leonardo Conti).
[excerpted from The Nazi War on Cancer, Robert N. Proctor, 1999).

Yours, Peter T. (non-smoker, non-Nazi!)

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Allan C.
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 10:49 AM

Just in case someone out there has never read the lyrics:

Click to Smoke

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From:
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 02:27 PM

June 30th ALREADY? Where did the first half of 1999 go?

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 03:16 PM

The implication that anti-smoking laws are Nazi, even coming from a non-smoker, I find rather offensive. As a former smoker (thirty some odd years ago), I remember my own insensitivity to the comfort of others, even members of my family. And as evidence of the deadly effects of tobacco became ever more indisputable, and even I realized that my habit of 30 years was dangerous to me, to my wife, and to my infant son, I finally was no longer able to deny that smoking was unhealthy, unpleasant, and wasteful, and I quit, finally staying out of the company of smokers to avoid temptation. I had started because of the adult, cool image that smoking had, largely fostered by advertising and product placement in movies, etc.--at that time not specifically targeting young people and minorities.

Tobacco is a dangerous drug; its long-term effects more dangerous even than those of alcohol--modest consumption of which seems to be even healthful. Tobacco's possible benefits--helping drivers stay awake, for example--are probably more than balanced by the immediate dangers of distraction, falling asleep while smoking.

I will admit to a strong prejudice against smoking: I am even bothered by being stopped behind another driver who is smoking. Anyone who wants to continue poisoning himself has my blessing, so long as the price he/she pays for his drug of choice includes the cost of his health care, and so long as he refrains from clearly dangerous smoking activity--in bed, in gas stations, etc.--and so long as the absolute right of non-smokers to breathe tobacco free air is not violated.

--seed

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Ferrara
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 03:29 PM

You know, I loved Peter T's post and I didn't read it to mean that anti-smoking laws are Nazi, but rather something like: Even in Nazi Germany, there were doctors who recognized the harm done not only by cigarette smoking but by ***cigarette advertising***. I don't suspect that the tobacco industry has ever had the lobbying power in Germany that it does here; such stringent regulation of advertising doesn't seem likely here (although we've adopted at least part of it).

"The Nazis tried to regulate cigarette advertising" does not imply "regulating cigarette advertising makes you a Nazi," any more than "Italians eat lots of garlic" implies "eating lots of garlic makes you an Italian." Actually, being smart, beautiful, clever, volatile of temperament and passionately fond of music makes you an Italian, but don't tell anybody I said so.

I know a woman who was furious when Richard Nixon established diplomatic relations with China. She didn't feel that a president whom she disliked so intensely should have done anything she approved of; it compromised her right to dislike him, I guess.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Fadac
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 03:50 PM

Ferrara, Yup, as much as we would like to have a black and white world, good/bad, the truth is things are more grungy gray. Germany under the Nazis did quite well. We must remember what it was like in Germany before the Nazis took over. They were ripe for something. The commuinsts tried, but didn't make it. It's hard to vote with your heart when you have a gun to your head...Well, people were starving, and Hitler put them to work. Ok, I think the guy should have been gassed in WWI, but as I live way after the fact, I have to go with what I read, and the stories that I have been told by the people that lived it. Just as the kids now will have to listen to my stories and read about the Viet Nam War, moon flights etc.

The thing to remember is that these guys were socialists (sp?) So cradle to grave care by the government. That includes medical, So if the Nazis are against smoking, should I be for smoking, to show that I'm not a Nazi, that's a bit of a streach I think. They also had law against drunk driving, should I get blasted then drive my car around, just to show my hate for Hitler?

He did a lot of black things, but there were some good things too. Many of which we have in this country today.

-Fadac, from somewhere in the middle of the gray...

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 05:41 PM

Just because they called themselves National Socialists didn't make them socialists: The Nazis came into power with the support of the big corporations because of the corporations fear of real socialism. The socialist tag existed only for the sake of winning votes from among the working classes. Social legislation had a long history in Germany: socialized medicine was instituted under Kaizer Wilhelm II before the 20th century began.

Advocates of smoke-free air are often referred to as anti-tobacco Nazis in letters to the editor. Peter, for whom I have great respect and affection, sounded in his post like some NRA spokespersons sound--gun control legislation is aimed at honest gun owners so liberal/fascists (what, you expect consistency?) intent on destroying our liberties will be able to confiscate the guns of freedom lovers. If he merely wanted to point out that even Nazis had some good ideas he should have stated that up front.

--seed

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Fadac
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 05:45 PM

Uh, thought that is what I said. I'm an ex smoker too. I quit in 1988, November. Took one hit on a cigar a year or so ago. Yack, had to eat a whole moose turd pie to get the taste out of my mouth. :o)

-Fadac

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 02:23 PM

I had tried to quit several times before with no luck until my then two year old son sidled up to me while I was on the couch puffing away. In between his index and middle finger he had a crayon he had been dutifully sucking in a flattering but horrifying attempt to mimic me. What a motivator. Used the gradual reduction method and have not smoked for 7 years. Still think about them occasionally, though, and at parties I jokingly encourage people to blow their smoke my way while I inhale deeply....ahhh, the good old days.

Neil - die-hard recovered nicotine addict.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Ferrara
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 03:28 PM

Fadac, this is nit-picking, but you stated that "He did a lot of black things, but there were some good things too." Well, I just have to remark that I doubt if the Nasty Man had anything to do with the Nazi government's campaigns against smoking and drunk driving. I can't imagine he took much thought to anyone's welfare but his own.

I suspect there were plenty of decent, competent people doing the best they could within the confines of that regime, just as Rommel was a fine general without feeling any particular sympathy with the Nazi party that I know of. (Not quarreling with your main point, just pointing out that I assumed somebody besides the Nasty Man was responsible for those to-my-mind excellent laws.)

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Fadac
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 04:11 PM

Ferrara, Ok, whatever, it's not worth arguing about. He's dead, and the winners write the history books.

Regards,

-Fadac

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 04:56 PM

There were a lot of connected ideas around across the world in the thirties, some of which we now look back on and think were good, some we think of as cranky and some of which are terrifying. They crossed national boundaries: it is sometimes unnerving to see how ideas which are clearly now seen as linked to Hitler, or Stalin, had adherents close to home. Hitler would not have got into power if he had put himself forward as a raving madman bent on destruction. He put himself forward as a caring leader, father to his people, and a concern for the health of his people would have been part of it. It needed to be based in something factual to be effective. There was an article in the magazine "HIstory Now" about some of the techniques he used to assume power.

Scarey stuff.

Penny

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 09:56 AM

-- seed, it was a thought for the day -- meant to provoke (did that!). The reference to the book was designed to tip people off to this extraordinary, somewhat unsettling history. It was German scientists under the Nazis who made the first real link between tobacco and cancer. They were also strong environmentalists (which is what I do!), passing a whole range of environmental protection laws, anti-vivisection rules, and conservation measures. At the same time they were murdering the disabled and anyone not "pure"; and doctors, academics, professionals and the rest were deeply involved in these exterminations. Ferrara more or less stated my point well. What makes the Nazis so relevant, and not movie monsters, is that they operated according to rules, theories, bureaucracies, good ideas, hideous ideas, all linked together. Robert Lifton's The Nazi Doctors is, if anything, more troubling.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 02:18 PM

Sorry for misinterpreting you, Peter. I should have known better--but tobacco advocate's primary argument always seems to be that it's unAmerican to restrict any rights--except, of course, the right to breathe clean air. As you know, I'm sure, "tree huggers" is the mildest thing environmentalists are called by timber interests and developers: "environmental Nazis" is a favorite one, just as Limbaugh calls feminists "femiNazis." I had a knee jerk reaction to one of my concerns being linked with Nazism.

--sseed (typo recognized and relished)(if advocacy of gun control, tobacco-free air, environmentalism, and equal rights regardless of race, religion (or lack thereof), ethnicity, sex, age, sexual orientation, physical ability, physical appearance; or opposition to NAFTA, GATT, any laws or treaties resulting in the dominant Hood Robin approach to economics (steal from the poor to give to the rich) common to both our political parties, the establishment of NATO as cops of the world, etc., make me any kind of Nazi, maybe I gotta get a swastika tattoo on my forehead.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 02:32 PM

Sorry for misinterpreting you, Peter. I should have known better--but tobacco advocate's primary argument always seems to be that it's unAmerican to restrict any rights--except, of course, the right to breathe clean air. As you know, I'm sure, "tree huggers" is the mildest thing environmentalists are called by timber interests and developers: "environmental Nazis" is a favorite one, just as Limbaugh calls feminists "femiNazis." I had a knee jerk reaction to one of my concerns being linked with Nazism.

--sseed (typo recognized and relished)(if advocacy of gun control, tobacco-free air, environmentalism, and equal rights regardless of race, religion (or lack thereof), ethnicity, sex, age, sexual orientation, physical ability, physical appearance; or opposition to NAFTA, GATT, any laws or treaties resulting in the dominant Hood Robin approach to economics (steal from the poor to give to the rich) common to both our political parties, the establishment of NATO as cops of the world, etc., make me any kind of Nazi, maybe I gotta get a swastika tattoo on my forehead.

BTW, last night I saw Berthold Brecht's "The Resistable Rise of Arturo Ui," performed by the Berliner Ensemble in German with English supertitles (projected too far above the stage, particularly from the orchestra where Sonja scored tickets by helping translate the German stage directions to the Zellerbach Hall (UC Berkeley) crew. Amazing play: Ui (Hitler) was played by Martin Wuttke who got five minutes of standing ovation from the thousand member audience.

(--seed, again. when the postscript is longer than the original letter, a new signature is needed)

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (June 30)
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 12:46 PM

-- seed -- Wow! I am deeply envious.
yours, Peter T.