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Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?

Ferrara 01 Jul 99 - 03:50 PM
annamill 01 Jul 99 - 04:22 PM
Ferrara 01 Jul 99 - 04:59 PM
Legal Eagle 01 Jul 99 - 05:24 PM
Susan of DT 01 Jul 99 - 07:24 PM
Paul Jay 01 Jul 99 - 10:42 PM
Joe Offer 01 Jul 99 - 11:22 PM
Night Owl 02 Jul 99 - 12:19 AM
Night Owl 02 Jul 99 - 12:24 AM
Ferrara 02 Jul 99 - 05:50 AM
MudGuard 02 Jul 99 - 07:21 AM
Roger in Baltimore 02 Jul 99 - 08:23 AM
Dani 02 Jul 99 - 09:29 AM
Bert 02 Jul 99 - 09:29 AM
Art Thieme 02 Jul 99 - 09:34 AM
Dani 02 Jul 99 - 09:47 AM
Dani 02 Jul 99 - 09:51 AM
annamill 02 Jul 99 - 10:04 AM
Roger in Baltimore 02 Jul 99 - 11:10 AM
Roger in Baltimore 02 Jul 99 - 11:16 AM
bbc 02 Jul 99 - 11:57 AM
katlaughing 02 Jul 99 - 10:22 PM
katlaughing 02 Jul 99 - 10:26 PM
Margo 02 Jul 99 - 10:51 PM
catspaw49 02 Jul 99 - 10:54 PM
Night Owl 03 Jul 99 - 12:56 AM
catspaw49 03 Jul 99 - 01:32 AM
Ferrara 03 Jul 99 - 10:19 AM
Bill D 03 Jul 99 - 06:49 PM
Ferrara 04 Jul 99 - 10:17 AM
Barbara 04 Jul 99 - 11:42 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 04 Jul 99 - 12:32 PM
dick greenhaus 04 Jul 99 - 02:31 PM
Night Owl 04 Jul 99 - 11:32 PM
Ferrara 06 Jul 99 - 09:01 AM
karen k 06 Jul 99 - 10:48 AM
Legal Eagle 06 Jul 99 - 11:51 AM
dick greenhaus 06 Jul 99 - 04:36 PM
Max 07 Jul 99 - 01:24 PM
Wolfgang 08 Jul 99 - 04:46 AM
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Subject: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Ferrara
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 03:50 PM

We NEED Dick Greenhaus! Well, some of us WANT him a lot -- to be available as a full time resource for the Mudcat. There is so much he could accomplish that way to expand the DT, add more of the posted words and tunes that are being contributed, maybe even follow up on some of the technical problems.

If you read the "Help with the use of Digital Tradition Folk" thread, you can see how important Dick's knowledge and efforts are. Dick wrote all the software for the downloadable versions of the DT. Dick and Max together came up with the plan for combining the DT with the mudcat. Dick personally collected and entered a huge number of the songs. He reads almost every thread. And of course long-time mudcatters have seen plenty of examples of his broad knowledge of music, his cheerful willingness to work hard and long for the good of this site, and his cheeky sense of humor, which probably has nothing to do with this thread but illustrates his many other sterling qualities.

Also, he could write The Mudcat Book. No one is better qualified (though several amongst us come awfully close.) Dick put up the first online DT, he and Max created the Mudcat, and Dick has read most of the words ever posted here. He knows the early history. the people who made it happen, the different twists and turns it has taken. He has been a professional writer "off and on" for 45 years and full time for the last 10 years. And he's in the perfect position to include Max's point of view.

Both Max and Dick would love to have Dick full time on the site, and I believe it's possible if the community supports it. The problem is money, as usual, but it's not a huge problem: He would only need about an extra $10,000 per year to retire and 'Cat around full time.

Any suggestions how to swing it financially? (Or, alternatively, any politely worded comments about what a dumb idea it is?) He was given a couple of grants for Digitrad in past years but nothing that would let him work full time, which is what I'm advocating. Dick and Max are very concerned and most reluctant to charge for any services they've been providing for free, but I convinced them at least to let me put it up for discussion.

One alternative is to institute a modest charge for a user name and Mudcat membership, i.e. to be able to post to the threads. It would be a really modest charge, Bill and I have very little extra cash -- actually, we have NO extra cash -- so we aren't going to support a change that would keep us away from our Mudcat. But how about $5 to $8 per year? And, say, you could read the forum without charge, but to post you need to be a member.

That in itself wouldn't generate the amount of cash needed, but it's a suggestion to get the ball rolling. I can think of lots of other ideas but I want to throw it out to the community.

Knowing this group, suggestions and counter-suggestions will snowball into a full-blown game of Calvinball before you can say "The Mudcat would be more fun if Dick could spend more time working on it!"

- Rita F


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: annamill
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 04:22 PM

Rita, Have you spoke to Dick about this?

annap


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Ferrara
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 04:59 PM

Yes, Anna, he was down here early in May and I brought it up then. I twisted his arm a little; not to work for the Mudcat, which he would love, but to let me see if the community can think of a way to help finance it.

And before I actually posted here, I checked with him again. He would never, never, never ask the community to find a way to support his work. He feels quite shy about my doing so, and I suspect he doesn't think it can be worked out because he and Max are so opposed to charging for Mudcat services; but he said go ahead and ask if I'm determined.

But as for his wanting the opportunity to work full time to improve the DT and Mudcat -- well it's, "PLEEZE don't throw me in that Briar Patch, Bre'r Fox!" - Rita F

ps. Dick and Max, could you give us some rough figures as to how many hits the DT gets in a month, how many people are signed up as members on the average, how many members actually post each month etc? That might give us an idea of how valuable the Mudcat is not just to the members, but to folkies everywhere.

Dick, would you please give us some specifics as to your dreams and ambitions for the site that you just haven't had time to do? Please?


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Legal Eagle
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 05:24 PM

Charge for membership or posting and you will kill it.

Does the USA have anything like the EFDSS? Has anyone tried the EEC? They are very keen on EEC member state cultural traditions, but I doubt if there is enough European content here. Would ASCAP or BMI like to improve their image and sponsor? What about the American equivalent to the BPI? Try the Musicians' union - over in the USA perhaps Local 47.

This discussion group works very well. Perhaps a software company would like a licence of the software?


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 07:24 PM

I would not want to see only members be able to post. Possibly a charge to have the member e-mail and stuff, but not to post.
The grants Dick got were to pay for most of a new computer every five or six years.


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Paul Jay
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 10:42 PM

I would personally be able to (donate?) about $10-20.

Could there be some kind of Folkie EBay? Maybe we could all post things we would/could part with and send the proceeds to the "Cat".

Legal Eagle I think that I can Identify 3 of those initials you threw out>>>USA. What do the others stand for? Paul


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 11:22 PM

Rita, you always pose such interesting questions. I'd hate to see a charge for the use of Mudcat. Some among us have a very limited income; and a charge might scare away the many people who come here to ask about one song, and then end up as "regulars." I can afford a hundred bucks a year, but it would take a hundred people paying that to come up with ten grand - and would we be able to do that for an extended period of time? It sure would be nice if we could come up with a grant to cover it, and it certainly seems like the Digital Tradition is a cultural treasure that's deserving of a grant.
In short, I'm in favor of hiring Dick, but I can't figure out how we'd pay for it.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Night Owl
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 12:19 AM

Just a few thoughts from an exhausted brain. Anyone have a connection/knowledge of former US Senator Byrd??? Is the $10,000 solely income for Dick or does it include expenses he would incur in pursuing his vision?? If it includes expenses can the expenses be further broken down??? Does every state have a Cultural Council distributing grants as my state does. We seem to go begging for good proposals. My State House, and I assume others, also has a computorized library of foundations...to access we type in the area of interest...and the computor brings up all foundations in the state for the specific subject. My local state legislator is also a wealth of information regarding historical preservation grants. We have a good professional rapport and I would be glad to approach him if I knew more detail. It seems to me that $10,000 is NOT impossible to find IF we/Dick/Max/Susan can articulate the goal (with "specificity"). I also think a one year grant would be insufficient for Dick's needs, especially if we're also "throwing the book" at him! (GREAT IDEA....Hooray!!!) I too would hate to see Mudcats charge $$$ for the information we have here. Part of the magic here for me is the recognition that some of the most intelligent, honest, articulate, compassionate, knowledgeable musicians also struggle to find their next meal.


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Night Owl
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 12:24 AM

and....we should be sure to include expenses for printing "Mud is thicker than water" bumper stickers!!


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Ferrara
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 05:50 AM

Yeah to all of this, thanks for the interest and the ideas. Upon being shown the light, I strongly agree with you guys about not charging to post but agree with Susan about *maybe* a charge for personal message/email service. But prefer some other way.

To be a full-time resource here, Dick would have to quit his job. It would need to be ongoing, not just a 1-year grant. So the idea has to be developed slowly and lots of avenues explored.

The e-bay idea is appealing. Those of us who are benefiting most from this resource could be most involved in supporting it. However a steadiness factor of some sort is needed so Dick can rely on it. That's one trouble with grants. They're great, but have to be just one part of the picture.

I probably should have tossed this around more with some of the people around here, or waited til after the Getaway before posting the idea, but I was afraid I might put it off forever. So be patient and just start chewing on the idea. Among the benefits to the community are:

* The backlog of posted lyrics and tunes could be added to the DT

* There would be encouragement for people to post more tunes

* The Book would get written!

Dick, please tell us if you don't mind, some of the other ideas and projects you have in mind.


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: MudGuard
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 07:21 AM

Why, Oh Why, was slavery abolished???
It would come in handy here.
Imagine Dick chained to a computer... ;-)


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 08:23 AM

I, too, am opposed to charging to post. I think it would effectively close the door to new membership. I didn't log on to the Mudcat to read threads. I had a question, I wanted an answer, and I could easily post. So post I did.

I'm not a rich guy either, but I can be generous where my heart is concerned. I could commit $100 per year to this project. That makes two of us, only need 98 more to make this happen.

I think the hits on the Mudcat are some astronomical number when I asked before. I'll see if I can find a reference. As for members, just go the e-mail list. It is quite large. I don't know how many members stay current, though. I suspect that list includes anyone who ever applied.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Dani
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 09:29 AM

I, too, am opposed to charging for posting and reading. But maybe not for extra perks?

The problem with 'subscriptions', I imagine, is that I might be able to commit with $100 this year, but what about next year? Then Dick needs a development director, or a job mowing lawns in the off-season.


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 09:29 AM

I don't agree with charging for posting. If you want to help, the very best thing that you can do at the moment, is to hit the "Help support the Mudcat" logo above.

If you buy from those guys (and Camsco) as much as possible then you will make it worthwhile for sellers to advertise here and we will be able to get more advertisers. When you buy from them, let them know that you are from Mudcat and tell tham how great that this place is.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 09:34 AM

It would be great to be able to pay Dick. I know he deserves it and needs it if he was to do what he's been doing for ages out of love on a full-time basis. And he deserves our thanks and our admiration. This is a valuable resource.

That said, it might might be great to have Mudcat get "professional" in the best of all possible worlds. That might have some real and positive benefits. But every coin has 2 sides!

It'd be great to have paid lawyers giving us advice so as not to allow the lawyers who do that for free to get bent out of shape so badly that they decide to sue to get their cut. But would it be great to be the Folk Alliance instead of Hey Rube? The men's USA soccer tam insteaf only being that great women's team?? Would it be better to become PBS & NPR instead of the fly-by-night station with the great folk shows we grew up loving---the one that ran on a basis of all volunteers who did it for love instead of one where the kids, fresh out of college, the hotshots who don't just "get a job", they "come on board" as CEOs with agents who negotiate big bucks contracts---and then, in the name of fiscal responsibility and Capitalism (how could that be bad here in America) get rid of the folk programming and turn the station into "all talk" or, even worse, Jerry Springer?

Is this far fetched? I've seen it happen to too many organizations I've loved not to present the possibility of it happening here ---albeit probably (hopefully) too a much lesser extent. This is just an admittedly outrageous scenario.

I do know Dick truly deserves the stipend. His work is terribly valuable to us all. But there were always those singers that got ticked when I got more pay at a festival than they might've. And I resented the people who got half the budget of the festival simply because they were 20 times the draw I was. (Human nature.)

Another side of the coin might be that a bureaucracy could be created that needed to be supported--one that has a way of growing. Then, to get the right kind of publicity, image, support people and all, more would need to be "hired". Of course, we'd need a big building to project the proper corporate image. (Even the I.W.W. had a well-known building--albeit pretty modest/seedy--on Halstead St. in Chicago when I was growing up.) Jealousy would develop in those newcomers who didn't know the ethic of the "old days". Older and less lucrative practices, ones that defined the organization in it's earlier and idealistic years, would be abandoned because nobody remembered them any more. Eventually, those that remembered and loved the "old days" would walk away 'cause they were getting pretty frail & didn't feel like fighting those with testosterone/estrogen running like freight trains through their arteries.

This is just a polemic, good people---but,nonetheless, it's food for thought---as is the premise of this thread.

Love,

Art


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Dani
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 09:47 AM

Your polemic is welcomed - it stirs up the pot.

It spices the places that thus far are not.

Your feelings shown clear make us look at our part:

"if you don't understand it, it mustn't be Art!"


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Dani
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 09:51 AM

...but what I really came to say is this: I just got a wonderful handful of help I didn't know I needed about a Kipling story I'd been wanting to find, along with leads to several great internet sites. Kipling is on the barest fringe of 'folk' music, I would think, and yet the spirit is willing.

I suggest that, (haven't I hear this somewhere before ;) when we are helped in such a way, with a question answered or an itch scratched, we make an immediate offering of thankfulness. This will obviously not preclude the need for a steady income, but it might help keep the circle alive.


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: annamill
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 10:04 AM

I'm not very knowledgable about internet stuff, or web pages, but an idea occurs to me that might work, but a lot more thought has to be done on the idea.

Dick, is sooo knowledgable and talented. These attributes could be marketable. Why not give Dick his own web page on Mudcat where he can market some of these talents and produce that extra money needed?

Another idea is to charge for downloading from DT. Not accessing and reading, but only downloading. It could be a one time deal, like $nn.nn for one song , or a membership that allows unlimited download for $nnn.nn per year. Does DT have midis? Damn, think of all the money you could generate there. So what if you have to pay Ascap a little something?

You might have to pay for internet advertizing. I have no idea what that cost would be, but maybe it would generate a lot more than the cost.

Altruism is all well and good, but quality is important too. Think of the quality we would have if we Dick full time.

Just an idea.

Love, annap


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 11:10 AM

Just did a quick count of names listed on the e-mail address log. Looks to be about 3700 +/-. Of course, there were fewer whose monikers I recognized.

As a non-profit, the Mudcat could develop membership rankings. There is the basic free membership. Then there is the $35 membership. For a $60 pledge, you get a Mudcat T-shirt. For a $100 pledge, you get a T-shirt and a CD of your choice from a Mudcat sponsor. For a $200 pledge you get a T-shirt, a free CD and a Bill Sables guitar strap. For a $500 membership you get all that an a possum ocarina from Barbara.

Hey, this sounds like a concept to me. It works (sort of) for Public Radio and TV. And we probably have more viewers than some of those stations.

This obviously requires a little more administration and bookkeeping, but I think it has possibilities. Then each could give according to their ability.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 11:16 AM

OK, OK, just stay with me! I'm on a roll now. This feels like a great "ah, ha!"

I mentioned Barbara and Bill Sables as examples. Well, there are many other artisans (well, a few more at least) on the 'Cat. Bill D. turns wood, Alice does T-shirts, and there are vague memories of others mentioning their wrok. So the premiums could vary. The artisans get part of the money as a fair price for their work (they come out with a plus) and the Mudcat gets the rest (they come out with a plus) for whatever needs it may have. And the donor gets a fine handcrafted/designed item and a good feeling (they come out with a plus).

Am I crazy or am I on to something?

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: bbc
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 11:57 AM

RiB,

I could go either way. As a "regular," I'd be willing to commit $100 a year in cash; my time on Mudcat is certainly worth as much to me as my basic-rate cable tv connection (much more, really!). On the other hand, that promotional gift thing is always a big incentive to contribute. I make jewelry from stone chips/beads or shell & would consider donating a pair of earrings in exchange for a small contribution. Might not do (most of) the men much good, but you do what you can.

Only one comment on the other side. When one does work on a volunteer basis, that one determines how, when, where, & how much to work and has the option of sloughing off negative feedback. A paid employee doesn't always have the same options. I appreciate Dick very much & just want what will work for him, as well as for Mudcat.

best to you all,

bbc (Barbara in NY)


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 10:22 PM

BBC: I, too, make custom-designed jewelry using stone beads and other natural materials! Just took an enameling class and hope to incorporate that in some of my designs!

Anyway, the NPR fundraising idea is good. I like it and a few months ago I had proposed that Max look into setting up automatic, monthly deductions from the checking accounts of anyone who wants to donate. I used to do this with Wyoming Public Radio, when their format was listenable; they took out $10, every month. It was easy and painless and that amount from many listeners realy added up. If we were able to do this, I think it would be one of the easiest and best ways to raise funds. And, those who could, would be able to donate more per month and receive some sort of premium, in the way of Mudcat artisans' products.

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 10:26 PM

Forgot to say: if you figure a conservative 10% (370) of the 3700 listed giving $10 per month =$ 120/year X 370 = $ 11,100.00


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Margo
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 10:51 PM

I may not have joined if there was a charge. I didn't join right away because I thought there must be a charge. When I realized it was free, I joined.

I wasn't worried about money necessarily, it's just that I didn't know right off the bat how useful the Mudcat would be for me. But when I got to posting, I discovered the community and wanted to be a part of it.

I think charging to post a message would be a mistake. I think charging for membership might be ok, but I'm undecided about that. I do order from the Mudcat links when I buy CD's, and am willing to send extra do re mi along the way. There's my cents worth.

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 10:54 PM

Interesting ideas Brother RiB.........Hey, for a grand, I'll show up on their doorstep and blow up the possums ass. For 5 grand, I'll use a real possum. For 10 grand, I'll blow up THEIR ass.

"Here Dick, 10 grand to run Mudcat...Sorry if the check is a little smudged, but the donor's appendix is lodged in his sinuses and his nose drips a lot."

OK, OK......Sorry, can't help it.

Actually I think the $100/yr or the NPR/PBS type schemes would all work...More an admin & tax problem than anything else. But I too would love to have someone full time.

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Night Owl
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 12:56 AM

Catspaw...Does the $1,000 include travel expenses, or is that extra???


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 01:32 AM

No Owl, I'm afraid it don't....But if you find one of those TEN GRAND donors, I'll pay my way and send the photos to Bill.

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Ferrara
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 10:19 AM

When you guys start mentioning $100 figures, I get queasy. BUT. Lots of fine ideas coming out of this. Have you seen Mudjack's "To the Highest Bidder" thread? He's offering a rare LP, proceeds to go to Mudcat, subject to Max's approval of the idea.

Here's a variant/expansion of his idea. How about a link, titled something like "Donations and Goodies", which leads to various fundraising pages? The key is "various." There could be some info about how Mudcat functions, what Dick's role is, what the costs & funding sources are for the whole shebang, whatever. That's for newbies. Maybe comments from a few regulars on the value of Dick's contributions. (Or just a statement that part of the funds go to provide a person who does full-time Mudcat support.)

Then as well as providing some kind of vehicle for pledges/donations, with whatever sophistication Max & Dick want to provide (a mailing address for checks? A P.O Box in Brazil? A numbered account in Switzerland?), there would be other fund-raisers, excluding the record sales which are already provided for.

The one I have in mind is this: In addition to a possible auction, there could be outright sale of donated handmade items or other goodies. For example, I make decorated boxes and plaques, including fancy designs that are worth $90 to $200 apiece. Would love to donate one or two a year to Mudcat. Bill's bowls ditto. They could also be auctioned off, but I'd almost rather sell them straight out with the understanding that, for example, one or two of the carved and woodburned dragons would be available every year. That would make more money in the long run that auctioning off just one. It would also allow me to provide an ongoing source of funds for Mudcat rather than making it a one-time thing.

OK. That's one more spoon stirring the pot. I'm go glad to see the way this thread is going. - Rita F


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 06:49 PM

I'm willing, if it goes that way, to provide stuff & more stufffor sale or auction, but I am not sure this sort of thing would provide ongoing, dependable support. It is sort of like a bake sale at church, you can only do it now & then..but, a concept like National Public Radio, where those who can & care pledge what they wish, with no penalty to those who can't...might help...

Now, if there were a venue for benefit concerts, where the musically inclined among us could "sing for Dick's supper"...*grin*...


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Ferrara
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 10:17 AM

I just thought I'd sum up the stuff that's been discussed so far.

The consensus seems to be that many of us DO want:

(1)for Dick to do more if he can;
(2) for Dick to work on the 'Cat full time if it can be financed in a way that feels good to everybody; and
(3) for Dick to consider writing The Book.

We DON'T want a charge for Mudcat membership, posting, e-mail or personal messages.

We DO want an easy, ongoing way to make donations.

We MIGHT want:,
(1) Auctions of donated stuff;
(2) Sale of donated stuff'
(3) Benefit concerts etc for the Mudcat;
(4) Automated monthly deduction of pledged donations; and
(5) Free membership but also "supporting" memberships, with levels of donation/support, and a premium (t-shirt, iron-on transfer, or wonderful donated handcrafted thingy) for certain levels of donation.

Did I leave anything out?

kat, in one post you said: " Forgot to say: if you figure a conservative 10% (370) of the 3700 listed giving $10 per month =$ 120/year X 370 = $ 11,100.00 " My trusty, rusty calculator says it would come to $44,000.00. If ONLY 84 PEOPLE contributed $10 a month, we would have the $10,000. But $10 a month is an awful lot of money for most of us. Still it's a starting place for discussion. I had in mind more like $3 a month. That would take 278 donating members. Still a lot actually. Hmmm .

Annap, Dick is already marketing his considerable talents in the real world. That's why he doesn't have as much time for the Mudcat as he'd like. He's willing to take a substantial drop in income to do the work he loves best.

The thing that scares me most -- I expected more folks to contribute their own points of view to this thread. Do you suppose the only people who would support the Mudcat at this level are the ones who've been posting to this thread?


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 11:42 AM

Nope, I've been listening and thinking about it, too. I'm willing to make custom critters for folks and the proceeds go to the 'Cat (or Dick, as may be). Tho if folks want ocarinas (and you just have to ask, WHY?) I'm still working on how to make one whistle.
One of the other Mudcatters has wisely chosen to settle for a rattle. And she'll send her fee for the critter to Mudcat, not me. Works for me.
The way Quakers run their finances is to post(or read) a monthly statement showing costs and donations, so we can see if more money is needed, and if it is, kick in.
I really like the assumption that we are all adults and can make this work if we know what is needed instead of having people harangue me to puleeeze give because I know how important it is (NPR for example).
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 12:32 PM

Not to worry, Rita- I think (I hope) I represent the many who are following this thread with interest who support everything said so far. I'm one of those at staff meetings who grit their teeth and groan silently when 2 or 4 or 10 people all have to speak up and tell at great length why they agree with everything that's been said. I belong to one group where we raise our hands and wiggle our fingers (it's called "twinkling") whenever something is said that we agree with. So, I'm twinkling away right now, especially over the membership levels ranging from free to benefactor, angel, etc. I wish I had something I could donate as an incentive (besides good will)!
Allison


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 02:31 PM

Hi-
First of all, let me say that I'm flattered by the idea that some people, at least, want to hire me

That said, I'd like to put myself on record about a few things:

One, the songs in the DT are not for sale. Not downloads, not searches, not copies, tunes. Not nuthin'. They don't belong to me, and the whole idea behind the DT was to make them available to everyone. At no charge. Period.

Two, I'm opposed (strongly) to imposing a charge for any of the existing Mudcat functions and activities. Likewise for the ones I can foresee. in the immediate future.

Three, I'm uncomfortable when people start talking about contributions in the over-two-digit range. This operation wasn't really set up to be an economic burden to anyone (except, maybe, Max and myself).

Four, I'd dearly love to find a source of income that would free me from my outside work, and allow me to give the DT and Mudcat the time I feel they deserve. This would include entry (and researching) more songs into the DT each year and digging and adding up tunes that are missing. More time would allow me to work on things like a working Mac version (Mac's newer operating systems won't support our older Mac format, and we haven't had a new Mac release for the past eighteen months.), a simple interface for things like the new DTPlayer, working the kinks out of the Digital Tradition on CD-ROM, developing a search engine for the day that Microsoft stops supporting our present DOS-based software and working with third party developers to provide Mudcatters with new and better shareware products. I'd have some time to put in on other related projects--I'm currently working on an electronically published "book" that will integrate the Child and Bronson collections (fully searchable, playing all tunes…), and I'd like to be able to put some thought to the proposed Mudcat book. I'd have more time to deal with things like Tee-shirts, hats and such like. And I might even have time to read all the threads at Mudcat. .

Currently, most of the income we get goes (appropriately) to helping Max defray the costs of running the Mudcat Website. Ultimately, I'd like to see Mudcat become self-supporting. Neither Max nor I are out for the big bucks--If we were, we'd probably turn to performing (that, at least pays better than what we're doing). Some modest income, though would be nice.

How? Well, we've made a start with links to commercial sites (click on Support the Mudcat if you haven't already). We're almost ready to begin distribution of folk recordings, working with Camsco, Folk-Legacy and Ulstersongs. I'm hoping that we can, before too long, turn Mudcat into the place to look for international folk-related recordings, books, instruments and supplies. Mudcat has over 100,000 regular visitors from all over the world; I'm sure that most of them buy something, and I hope they'll see fit to buy them through Mudcat,
I think that auctioning folk-related objects to benefit the Cat is a fine idea. And I (and Max) would welcome any other ideas anyone can come up with.

dick


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Night Owl
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 11:32 PM

Dick....exciting for me to read your comments including enough "specificity" for us to start looking for resources. I also love the idea of auctioning things to benefit Mudcats and am delighted to hear you and Max support the idea. It's amazing to me how many artisans are here who's work I would love to buy....I'm sure others feel the same!! Can auctioning be done right here as a Thread without causing legal-financial problems for the site?? How do you see it being done?? I'm also glad to hear that you've accepted the "book being thrown at you"...I did hear right....right??


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Ferrara
Date: 06 Jul 99 - 09:01 AM

Thanks, Barbara & Animaterra, for the feedback. Dick, I really liked Barbara's comment about the Quakers: "The way Quakers run their finances is to post(or read) a monthly statement showing costs and donations, so we can see if more money is needed, and if it is, kick in." It seems a very civilized approach.

Dick, your description of the folk-related work you're doing and would like to do was great. Do we need donations to reach a level where the Mudcat is fully self supporting before part of the funds can kick in to provide you with more time to work on Mudcat? Can we designate donations for that purpose? Can you guys set aside a sort of escrow account and see whether it really starts building up to enough money for you to rely on? Are these questions too nosey? nosy? nosie? knowsie? - Rita F


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: karen k
Date: 06 Jul 99 - 10:48 AM

Dick, I don't have a lot of $ to donate right now, but if there was a way I could do it on disk from home I sure would be willing to type lyrics for you. That might free you up a little for something else.

Let me know if this is feasible. If it is, maybe a few others would be willing as well.

Stay cool all, karen k


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Legal Eagle
Date: 06 Jul 99 - 11:51 AM

I had a couple of days away from this trying to earn an honest crust and keep my wife from nagging.

Initials>

English Folk Dance and Song Society

European Economic Community

American Society of Composers and Performers

Broadcast Music Inc

British Phonographic Industry.

Hunt those grants for cultural purposes.

And I think I have an idea. Over here in Blighty net distribution of sound recordings is just starting. The old hat bit (hypertext link to catalogue, secure ordering, postal distribution of hard copies) is on the way. The next step is watermarked lockable MP3s - credit card payment for time limited downloads, see? So link from songs in the DT to catalogue of recordings, and take royalties from the manufacturers/distributors. Someone else does all the work - the Mudcat gets some of the money.

By the way Dick - you are right 100% about charges.


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 99 - 04:36 PM

Karen- I'm delighted whenever someone sends in lyrics. Entering in the forrmat that Digitrad uses--nothing esoteric; just look at an entry--is a real help. You know, Title in caps, composer on line 2 in parentheses, notes at the end etc. I'll take care of filenames and keywords.

Thanx in advance!


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Max
Date: 07 Jul 99 - 01:24 PM

Ok, here comes my thoughts...

We will never charge for access to the anything on the Mudcat. I am not sure dick and I could even afford a membership fee. Point is, we know you all aren't rich out there. So the thought is pure, provide STUFF that you would buy anyway, at competitive prices. STUFF that is relevant to traditional music and the like, that may be hard to find or at least not convinient. So we provide more of the service this place is really for anyway while raising some money. Perfect.

Soon there is a major update coming to the cat which includes a record collection, auction, maybe MP3's for sale, and we have deals with about 100 or more websites to get little commissions like we do with amazon (which averages about $42 per month).

I have been talking about this forever, I know, and a lot of people have been counting on this. I truly underestimated the work involved in this plan, blew deadlines and broke promises. Folks like dick and Wally McNow at Camsco have been very supportive and patient with us, and I thank them dearly. But now even I am getting impatient.

Without exageration, since January, Onstage Media has supplied us with over $50,000 in manpower and about $5000 in equipment for these new changes (don't tell my stockholders). This shit is really hard!

Some of the changes are obviously commercial, which is inevitably going to piss somebody off. In the spirit of the Cat, I have made and will make every effort to not allow the commercialism to take anything away from what the mudcat is all about. But it is going to happen now. All I ask is to work with me in this process. When we finally do launch the new site, be tolerant of bugs and differences and commercialism etc. You asked for it.

And I am pretty confident dick will be full time by the end of the year. But then again I am huge optimist. Everybody take a deep breathe and relax, I have a plan and am taking action, though maybe not a quickly as some would like. Suggestions are welcome but don't let it bother you cause we're gonna make out OK.


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Subject: RE: Can we hire Dick Greenhaus?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jul 99 - 04:46 AM

Max,

I'll stay with you. You (and all others) are doing a great job. I am looking forward to the new update and since I can imagine how much work that is I refrain from reviving that old April came late this year thread (grin).

Wolfgang


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