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Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'

tijuanatime 28 Mar 09 - 04:18 PM
greg stephens 28 Mar 09 - 04:25 PM
Mary Humphreys 28 Mar 09 - 04:27 PM
curmudgeon 28 Mar 09 - 04:29 PM
tijuanatime 28 Mar 09 - 05:04 PM
Phil Edwards 28 Mar 09 - 06:21 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Mar 09 - 06:54 PM
Ross Campbell 28 Mar 09 - 07:34 PM
JohnB 28 Mar 09 - 07:54 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Mar 09 - 08:07 PM
Joe Offer 28 Mar 09 - 08:08 PM
Jack Blandiver 28 Mar 09 - 08:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Mar 09 - 10:42 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 29 Mar 09 - 05:55 AM
The Borchester Echo 29 Mar 09 - 06:04 AM
Jack Blandiver 29 Mar 09 - 06:10 AM
MartinRyan 29 Mar 09 - 06:16 AM
greg stephens 29 Mar 09 - 12:50 PM
Jim McLean 29 Mar 09 - 02:50 PM
Jack Blandiver 29 Mar 09 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Chris P 29 Mar 09 - 03:32 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 29 Mar 09 - 03:39 PM
greg stephens 29 Mar 09 - 03:39 PM
Folkiedave 29 Mar 09 - 04:02 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM
Folkiedave 29 Mar 09 - 05:21 PM
Mysha 29 Mar 09 - 07:04 PM
greg stephens 30 Mar 09 - 07:18 AM
Jack Blandiver 30 Mar 09 - 07:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 30 Mar 09 - 07:36 AM
greg stephens 30 Mar 09 - 07:51 AM
greg stephens 30 Mar 09 - 08:07 AM
Jack Blandiver 30 Mar 09 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 30 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM
Folkiedave 30 Mar 09 - 12:58 PM
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Subject: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: tijuanatime
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:18 PM

Penguin(UK) are reissuing the Vaughan Williams/Lloyd "English Folk Songs" as part of a series called "English Journeys". It's reissued on April 2nd: a few more details here


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:25 PM

Wasn't this just reissued already edited by Malcolm Douglas, with new notes? Maybe this new one will be the old one with the old notes?


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:27 PM

It's not a patch on the reprinted version called Classic English Folksongs recently produced by the EFDSS/SRFN with the notes completely revised by Malcolm Douglas. Now that is worth every penny!


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: curmudgeon
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:29 PM

Unfortunately, Classic English Folk Songs is out of print and used copies start at $50.00 US - Tom


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: tijuanatime
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 05:04 PM

I do own(and use) the Malcolm Douglas edition, but this appears to be a reprint of the original edition, which is of interest to me as I've never seen a copy of it. As curmudgeon points out, the EFDSS reissue is (temporarily, possibly) out of print.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:21 PM

Interesting, but no substitute for a reprint of the revised version. Anyone know who we should badger or plead with in the publishing arm of the EFDSS empire?


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:54 PM

The original turns up regularly on Ebay. I think there's a copy on currently for a few quid. I can't imagine EFDSS letting such a money spinner as CEFS go out of print. I'd check out C# House if I were you.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 07:34 PM

Amazon UK has two for sale, both described as "in stock":-

Classic English Folk Songs by Malcolm Douglas, R.Vaughan Williams, and Albert Lancaster Lloyd (Paperback - Dec 2003)
2 Used & new from £14.99

The new copy is from Hobgoblin at £19.95 + £2.95 p&p
Click thru the Mudcat link

Ross


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: JohnB
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 07:54 PM

I don't remember what I paid for it but I have the revised Malcolm Douglas version. I think I bought it from the Morris Ring guy who sells various books at different folky activities. It lives just to the right of my computer screen.
JohnB.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 08:07 PM

Mine lives just to the left.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 08:08 PM

Well, I'm glad EFDSS sold out. It's nice when publishers come up with reissues of old classics like this, but not so nice when somebody has gone to the expense of updating the original, not long before.
Same thing happened with Dover and the Child Ballads. Dover should have reissued Child long ago, but did so only after Loomis House Press and Heritage Muse started coming out with their editions.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 08:27 PM

And from the introduction to The Penguin Book of English Folk Song comes one of the true classics of folk misinformation:

A search for the roots of jazz leads to American folk song, and a search for the origins of American folk song leads the astonished enthusiast back home to his own traditional music.

Astonished indeed.

*

What's the cover of the new edition? On my first visit to the Walker Gallery in Liverpool I was delighted to see W. F Witherington's The Dancing Bear that graces the cover of my 1968 paperback.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 10:42 PM

The introduction written by RVW and ALL is reproduced in "Classic English Folk Songs. There is also an introduction to the new edition by Malcolm Douglas.
Both are informative. Both are correct.

The EFDSS should reprint, and keep it in print. Malcolm did an excellent job of revising a minor classic.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:55 AM

As far as I know, Malcolm Douglas provided the EFDSS with some further revisions to Classic English Folk Songs, and this will now be reprinted. A further great tribute to Malcolm's work. In the meantime, I have a few copies for sale if anyone wants to contact me. eds.editor "at" efdss.org
I am bemused by Penguin's reprint. I will alert Malcolm Taylor et al at EFDSS.
Derek Schofield


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:04 AM

I posted last night that Classic English Folk Songs was prohibited from using the term "Penguin" by Penguin Books themselves, so now we can see why.

I also noted that the Penguin ad helpfully provides a box to tick if you want to be emailed about any future publications from this author . . . (!).

No idea where or why it disappeared.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:10 AM

Both are informative. Both are correct.

It is in no way correct that Jazz evolved from English Folk Song.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:16 AM

Derek

Hold one for me, please. Email follows.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 12:50 PM

Sinister Supporter: of course a search for the origins of jazz leads to American folksong. And a search for the origins of that leads back to English folksong(among other things). Where is "the classic bit of folk misinformation" in that? It is true, and blindingly obviously true.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 02:50 PM

You can buy he original 1959 edition for about 10 GB pounds via www.abebooks.com
I paid 3 shillings and sixpence for my copy in 1961!


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 03:20 PM

Sinister Supporter: of course a search for the origins of jazz leads to American folksong. And a search for the origins of that leads back to English folksong(among other things). Where is "the classic bit of folk misinformation" in that? It is true, and blindingly obviously true.

Why I'm dignifying this statement with a reply I don't know, but for the sake of a cultural truth long since misrepresented not just in the hallowed pages of TPBPOEFS but in the minds of those who have read it and believed it....

Jazz was created & developed by African-American musicians; the roots of the music are African, and the music remains primarily African-American. A search for the roots of Jazz leads you to Africa, not England. Jazz - Black Classical Music; Great Black Music - Ancient to the Future.

From WIKI: Jazz is a primarily American musical art form which originated at the beginning of the 20th century in African American communities in the Southern United States from a confluence of African and European music traditions. The style's West African pedigree is evident in its use of blue notes, improvisation, polyrhythms, syncopation, and the swung note.[1]

Note: blue notes, improvisation, polyrhythms, syncopation, and the swung note - not exactly your everyday fare in English Folk of any persuasion.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: GUEST,Chris P
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 03:32 PM

I felt a spot of rain...


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 03:39 PM

Call me a traditionalist but I prefer the original Penguin Book of English Folk Songs


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 03:39 PM

Sinister supporter: nobody suggested jazz originated with English folk song, which would be a remarkably silly posaition to hold(though certain New Orleans tunes, St James Informaryu and Didn't He Ramble, for example, did see the light of day in England before they crossed to Louisiana).
No, what the statement said was very clear, and absolutely correct. That if you study the origins of jazz, you will be lead to American folksong. And that if you study the origins of American folksong, you will be lead to English folksong. Now, which bit of that statement do you find difficult to understand, or disagree with?


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 04:02 PM

Call me a traditionalist but I prefer the original Penguin Book of English Folk Songs

I played the full story of how and why this came to be revised on my radio show on Friday from an interview done by Ron Day before Malcolm sadly died last Sunday. See thread.cfm?threadid=110008

There is nothing to stop you preferring the PB of EFS and I am happy to call you a traditionalist. I regard it as a compliment anyway.

But RVW and Bert Lloyd did make some textual and musical "alterations" acknowledged in the preface to the original - but not fully acknowledged. Malcolm's research covered and corrected all this.

So if you do want the "traditonal" version then you might be better off with Malcolm's!!


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

I too have the Dancing Bear edition, bought for 5/- (that's five shillings or 25p nowadays) in 1968.
I also have Classic English Folk Songs which was a lot more, but I'm glad of the revised notes from Malcolm Douglas.
I'll look at the new Penguin one in Waterstones where they provide nice seats to sit on.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:21 PM

Basically standards of research and scholarship have improved immeasurably since the 1959 edition.

Malcolm's work reflects these changes. And I agree that Waterstone's customer comfort leaves a lot to be desired.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Mysha
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 07:04 PM

Hi Dave,

I heard the broadcast, but I wondered:
(This is weird, I'm listening to you while I'm writing ...)

These "alterations" that were made in the Penguin version and have been "corrected", are they still included as well? After all, those songs/versions have existed for forty years, and it now appears they may exist even longer.

                                                                   Mysha


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:18 AM

Mysha: don't worry, Lloyd's imaginative amendments are still available in the Malcolm Douglas edition. There is a splendid line in "The Ship in Distress", for example:
"A full dressed ship like the sun a-glittering".
Who would want to leave it out, even though it would appear to be one of Bert Lloyd's flights of fancy? There does not appear to be any proven source for that nice bit out of "The Blacksmith" either: "with his good black billy cock on, decked with primroses". It is difficult to imagine that this is anything other than Lloyd creation either. Well, good for him, dishonest though he was in inserting them into traditional songs in a semi-scholastic book. But Malcolm Douglas has left them in, and pointed this out in his admirable notes.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:24 AM

No, what the statement said was very clear, and absolutely correct. That if you study the origins of jazz, you will be lead to American folksong. And that if you study the origins of American folksong, you will be lead to English folksong. Now, which bit of that statement do you find difficult to understand, or disagree with?

My difficulty, Greg, is understanding why, if what you say of the intention of the statement is really true, said enthusiast would be at all astonished. I also have a difficulty in understanding why (again, if you what you say... etc.) such a statement was made in the first place. No, reading it in context it would seem that the authors were letting themselves get rather carried away in their overestimation of the global influence of Traditional English Folk Song given its burgeoning status amongst the hip of 1959 that was already being slated as a revival, as oppose to the wholesale reinvention it actually was, complete with the historical revisionism that invariably attends such movements and their attendant, ahem, ideologies.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:36 AM

dishonest though he was in inserting them into traditional songs in a semi-scholastic book.

He does point out in the introduction that such alterations were being made, and in the notes it is indication how & where. See also the thread Bertsongs?


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:51 AM

Sinister Suppoter: you are completely overlooking the historical context in which Lkoyd's statement was made. In the 50's in England, there was a huge craze for jazz, particularly traditional New Orleans Jazz. And a lot of the fans were good nerdy scholastic types, who liked resaerching discographies, tune origins etc. The growth of skiffle from c 1953 on brought the jazz audiences(and performers) ibnto close contact with traditional American folk song, from the likes of Ken Colyer, Elexis Korner, Lonnie Donegan etc etc. Then a lot of people becasme seriously interested in these American songs, and from the mid-50's on began realising the links from some of these American songs back to British folksong roots. This rapid growth in interest led to the explosion of the folk clubs and the late 50's/early 60's folk revival in Britain.
   Hence Lloyd's use of the word "astonished". English folk song had been neglected totally in general English culture for a long time, except for a few classical people and a faithful few at C Sharp House. The jazz fans came from an angle of popular Amercian dance music. So, they were "astonished" when their examination of jazz led via American folksong to the folksongs on their own doorstop. Pewrfectly straightforward. And certainly not an attempt by Lloyd to prove that English folk music evolved into jazz. It didn't. We all know it didn't. So did Bert Lloyd. It is just a fact that some English folk songs moved across the Atlantic with English settlers, as everyone knows now. And some of those songs did indeed surface in New Orleans, but that's another story.
(Now, have you ever looked into the 12-bar structuree of the Derby Ram, and compared it to Stagolee, Frankie and Johnny, and White House Blues, for example. Interesting, huh?)


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:07 AM

Sinister Supporter: I take it the "He" in your quote is Bert Lloyd when you say "He does point out in the introduction that such alterations were being made, and in the notes it is indication how & where". That statement is incorrect. It should be forcibly pointed out, so there is no mistake: Bert Lloyd frequently rewrote traditional folksongs, and frequently did not point out that he had done so. Whether you approve of that is up to you. Personally I think anybody has a perfect right to rewrite folksongs, that is what I mean by the term. But I think Bert was betraying schoilastic principles when he didn't own up.
If I record a traditional song or tune, as I frequently do, I feel totally free to modify it in any way I choose. But if I write an article on "Traditional fiddle tunes in Cumbria, 18540-1860" (as I do), then I would feel it was an unforgivable sin to insert one of my own tunes into the article and pass it off as trad. There is a ditinction, I think. Bert Lloyd occasionally(and very felicitously) stepped over the line.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:25 AM

I was trying to be diplomatic there, Greg - although it is indicated in the intro to the PBOEFS that such changes were made: This is a book to sing from. To make things singable the editorial hand has been used where necessary. And in the notes to Lucy Wan it points out that the 3 opening stanza are lifted from Lizzy Wan in Child and the subsequent verses rearranged for the sake of coherence. I know the issue in a controversial one - and dare I say his approach in this respect is entirely in keeping with his statement about Jazz, the New Orleans / Skiffle craze notwithstanding?

I don't have Malcolm's edition - I confess to have being put off by the use of Folk Celebrity in the packaging (much as I respect the Folk Celebrity in question, I'm more of a Dancing Bear man myself) but in the light of the above I'll do my best to track one down.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

I do hope that they don't reissue the book without updating/revising the notes on the folksong carriers who were the source for many of the songs. For example, the background information on William Bolton in the Penquin book is full of inaccuracies.


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Subject: RE: Penguin(UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:58 PM

He does point out in the introduction that such alterations were being made, and in the notes it is indication how & where.

No, that's what he SAYS he has done. The actuality is totally different - which is why Malcolm Douglas spent ages revising the book, going right back to the original sources.

I do hope that they don't reissue the book without updating/revising the notes on the folksong carriers who were the source for many of the songs. For example, the background information on William Bolton in the Penquin book is full of inaccuracies.

William Bolton is totally revised in view of later research.

It is why the re-published book Classical English Folk Songs is so much better.


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