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'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc

Gibb Sahib 26 Apr 09 - 04:04 PM
Gibb Sahib 15 Apr 09 - 06:04 PM
Charley Noble 14 Apr 09 - 09:09 AM
Gibb Sahib 13 Apr 09 - 07:04 PM
Snuffy 13 Apr 09 - 04:31 PM
Gibb Sahib 13 Apr 09 - 04:18 PM
Gibb Sahib 13 Apr 09 - 04:04 PM
Gibb Sahib 13 Apr 09 - 04:00 PM
Snuffy 13 Apr 09 - 03:46 PM
Gibb Sahib 13 Apr 09 - 02:41 PM
Snuffy 13 Apr 09 - 07:29 AM
Gibb Sahib 13 Apr 09 - 12:14 AM
Snuffy 10 Apr 09 - 04:56 PM
Gibb Sahib 10 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM
curmudgeon 09 Apr 09 - 06:26 PM
Lighter 09 Apr 09 - 06:12 PM
Gibb Sahib 09 Apr 09 - 03:00 PM
Charley Noble 09 Apr 09 - 01:06 PM
Gibb Sahib 09 Apr 09 - 11:42 AM
Lighter 09 Apr 09 - 09:55 AM
Barry Finn 08 Apr 09 - 11:59 PM
Gibb Sahib 08 Apr 09 - 11:26 PM
Lighter 08 Apr 09 - 01:51 PM
Gibb Sahib 07 Apr 09 - 08:28 PM
Tug the Cox 07 Apr 09 - 07:50 AM
Gibb Sahib 06 Apr 09 - 10:37 PM
Lighter 06 Apr 09 - 09:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Apr 09 - 09:10 PM
Azizi 06 Apr 09 - 07:24 PM
Gibb Sahib 06 Apr 09 - 07:17 PM
Gibb Sahib 06 Apr 09 - 06:55 PM
Lighter 06 Apr 09 - 06:50 PM
Gibb Sahib 06 Apr 09 - 03:22 PM
Azizi 06 Apr 09 - 01:57 PM
Azizi 06 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM
Gibb Sahib 06 Apr 09 - 12:20 PM
Gibb Sahib 06 Apr 09 - 12:18 PM
Gibb Sahib 05 Apr 09 - 08:34 PM
Barry Finn 05 Apr 09 - 02:20 PM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 09 - 10:44 AM
doc.tom 05 Apr 09 - 05:07 AM
Gibb Sahib 04 Apr 09 - 05:13 PM
Barry Finn 04 Apr 09 - 04:35 PM
Azizi 04 Apr 09 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,rumanci 04 Apr 09 - 02:49 PM
Gibb Sahib 04 Apr 09 - 02:44 PM
Gibb Sahib 04 Apr 09 - 01:36 PM
doc.tom 04 Apr 09 - 12:07 PM
Marc Bernier 04 Apr 09 - 11:20 AM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 09 - 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:04 PM

Adding...

"Hello, Somebody"

Print: Barker (1933); Hugill; Doerflinger
Performers: Bob Webb; Mystic Seaport chanteymen

This one is obviously 'related' to the foregoing "Hilo, Boys, Hilo," in it's "hello/hilo somebody" phrase, but there are enough differences in tune, lyrical theme, etc to identify it distinctly. Terry gave the song titled "Hilo Somebody," but that is just his name for "Hilo Boys Hilo." Also, on the 1960s SAILOR'S GARLAND recording by AL Lloyd and Ewan MacColl, they do a "Hilo Somebody"--I don't have that recording, but I presume it to be based on Terry's book. Somebody please confirm, if possible.

JP Barker, so says Hugill (I don't have this text), quotes it in LOG OF A LIMEJUICER (1933). Hugill's own version was from Harding. Doerflinger also collected a version.

Hugill does not appear to have recorded it, and without yet any information to the contrary, I presume that Bob Webb's 1995 recording and the Mystic Seaport's chanteymen's performances are based in his text.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 06:04 PM

Charley, did you see my post of 13 Apr 09 - 12:14 AM? (I'm not sure you are responding, or posting currently about this fascinating chantey.) Either way, you've added more info. Thanks -- keep going!
Maybe let's hear more about the "Jenny's Gone to Ohio" variant?

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 09:09 AM

Gibb-

I'm wondering where the slower halyard shanty "Tommy's Gone Away" came from. It's the version that shares the same tune as "Jenny's Gone to Ohio." Hugill references this version as having been learned from a South Wales seaman but being also collected by Terry, SSS, p. 193-194. The Boarding Party recorded this version as "Tommy's Gone to Hilo" on FAIR WINDS AND A FOLLOWING SEA, © 2003.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 07:04 PM

Ooh, nice. So...if I'm following.. Bob Walser brings "Ilo Man" (William Fender's) to light with his work with the Carpenter Collection. Then (?) Bob Webb using it as a source for his 2000 recording is interesting.   Calennig also used it as a source.

The Harry Browns of Bristol recorded "Ilo Man" in the mid-late 90s (?). Kasin and Adrianowicz were inspired by that for their 2002 recording.

Again, the possibility that an older song was pretty much revived just in the last dozen years-- but this time with an aural source.

It will be interesting to see, as more people are exposed to the recordings in the Carpenter Collection, if and how the trajectories of some of these songs are influenced.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:31 PM

This message contains a couple of versions of Ilo Man (or Hilo Man in Carpenter) - related to Huckleberry Hunting, We'll Ranzo Way, etc


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:18 PM

In my previous post when I wrote "Northeast" I meant "Northeast United States." Apologies to folks in other countries.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:04 PM

Snuffy,

You are a gentleman!


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:00 PM

"Huckleberry Hunting"

Print: Hugill; LA Smith; Davis & Tozer "The Chanty-man's Song"; Bullen "What Did You Give For Your Fine Leg O' Mutton"; Whall; Terry "The Wild Goose Shanty"; Sharp; Colcord; Doerflinger; Harlow "Hilo, My Ranzo Way"

Performers: Forebitter; Johnson Girls; Jerry Bryant; Portsmouth Shanty Men; Carpenter Collection: Jimmie Cronin OR John Ferries, James Wright

Notes:

Wow! It is surprising how many texts this one pops up in --albeit by lots of different names-- given that it is not really widely known so much as other chanteys. What's more, the tunes to all these versions are quite consistent.

As far as aural sources go, it is unclear to me whether the Carpenter Collection examples might be of this chantey, or of one of the others called "Ranzo Ray" (a completely different beast). Though there are now several good recordings, I wonder: who was the link in the chain? Since many of these Northeast folks who have done it in recent years are on Mudcat, perhaps they could chime in with where they learned it from. Did one of the old-timers (say, Stan Hugill at an off-record session at Mystic) pass it on, or was it recently "revived" from texts?

(Incidently, when I tried recording this one, here, I had not heard any aural version and was only using Hugill's text. Had I cross-referenced with other texts at that time, it would have come out better, as Hugill's notation is a bit irregular, I think.)

So, an interesting case, if I'm reading the evidence accurately: A very well-known chantey from the days of sail...more or less ignored during the early revival...only to be revived in recent years.

Also, BTW, here is one mudcat thread on it.

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:46 PM

Gibb Sahib,

See my PM for further details.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 02:41 PM

Snuffy,

Just judging by the verses (I don't have the recording), the Rees Baldwin song seems to fit the mold of the usual "Johnny Come Down to Hilo" pretty well. I could see "Pull down below" as a substitute for "Poor old man."

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 07:29 AM

It's very confusing: on the Carpenter Collection CD the following song goes under the title of Johnny Come Down To Hilo, and in the indexes it may also sometimes be referred to as Pull Down Below. It is sung by Rees Baldwin of Barry, Wales

Hilo, Johnny, Hilo,
I wonder what's the matter now
Johnny come down to Hilo.
Oh pull down below

Hilo, Johnny, Hilo,
I wonder what's the matter now
Johnny come down to Hilo.
Oh pull down below

I was born down Mobile Bay
But I got in debt so I ran away
Johnny come down to Hilo.
Pull down below

Away down South where I was born
Among the fields of yellow corn
Johnny come down to Hilo.
Pull down below

Oh Hilo, Johnny, Hilo,
I wonder what's the matter now
Johnny come down to Hilo.
Pull down below

Mr Baldwin also sings a fragment of the "normal" Tom's Gone to Hilo thus (changing Tom to John):

Johnny's gone, and I'll go too
Oho, Hilo
Oh, Johnny's gone, and I'll go too
John's gone to Hilo


Then in the index there are two song texts entitled Pull Down Below with completely different first lines:
a) All my time I've been courting Allie
b) I went to church I went to chapel (this is presumably the same as recorded by Stormalong John on A Liverpool Packet

And a bit of good news received via the Traditional Drama Forum implies that by June of next year "It is expected that by this time, the first four volumes of the printed version of the [Carpenter] collection will be nearing completion. One of these volumes, edited by Bob Walser, will be on sea shanties."


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:14 AM

Maybe another worth considering as a broken-oral-link chantey:

"Tommy's Gone Away"

Print: Hugill; Sharp; Terry; Eckstorm?

Quoting doc.tom's excellent notes:

Tommy's Gone (Tommy's Gone Away). mss.2929. SHARP 60: This may be a variant of the preceding number (Tom's Gone To Ilo), though the same singer sang them both. I cannot trace it anywhere else. Mr. Short said that this was used not only as a pulling chantey but also when they were screwing cotton into the hold at New Orleans.   TERRY2 (24) This is a variant of the sentiment of 'Tom's gone to Hilo (see Pt.1) but the tune is different and not so good. The version is that of Mr. Short. HUGILL Variant of Tom's Gone to Hilo. Apart from (me) only given by Terry. My version from S. Wales seaman who had served in the copper trade.

And adding:

There is also a "Tom's Gone Away " in Eckstorm and Smyth's MINSTRELSY OF MAINE (1927). I've not reviewed its contents.

As recordings go, I just find one for review. It's a 1994 album, TRADE WINDS, by Welsh group Calennig. In some notes for the album, here, they mention how several shanties sung by men from South Wales were recorded by James Madison Carpenter. They also seem to have done some follow-up fieldwork, and they imply that the album is based on those sources. However, I don't find this one in the Carpenter Collection. I'd ~guess~ they included it on the album due to Hugill's note of having learned it from a South Wales man.

What other performers (recorded or not) have this in their repertoire? Perhaps under a different title? I'm not finding much evidence to suggest that this oral tradition has survived.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:56 PM

There are several instances in the Carpenter Collection of Hilo Boys by Mr Edward Robinson, who lived at 11 Trafalgar Square, Sunderland, was born in 1834, and his first ship was the collier Halcyon 1846.

However, of the 146 tracks on the Carpenter Collection double CD, there are six by Edward Robinson ranging from 16 to 27 seconds in length. None seem to fit the bill:
Cheerily Men
Fire Down Below
The Hogs Eye Man
A Hundred Years Ago
Paddy Doyle's Boots
Stormalong

So it looks like a trip to the LoC would be needed to access Carpenter's recordings, notations, or texts.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM

Thanks, Tom. The plot thickens!

***********
Another possible candidate:

"Hilo, Boys, Hilo"

Print: Hugill; Terry - "Hilo Somebody"; Bloomfield (1896)
Performers: "Mr. Robinson" (1920s?); Alan Mills (1957); AL Lloyd (1962); the Shanty Crew

Notes:
Hugill learned it from "Tobago Smith." However, I don't think he ever recorded it himself.

It appears in text as early as 1896, Bloomfield's A CUBAN EXPEDITION. The voyage was circa 1875 (?). Here's a cut n paste of the relevant passage:

//
The foretopsail rose off the cap with many jerks,
and gradually got stretched out to its full height
to the topmast head to the music of a "shantie,"
or song, given out by the carpenter, who happened
to be the " shantie man " on this occasion.

Sailors' shanties — probably a corruption of chant-
ing — or hauling choruses, not songs, are generally
improvised by the " shantie man '' who gives them
out. The choruses are old and well known to all
sailors, but between each pull and chorus the
" shantie man " has to improvise the next line, or
compose the " shantie " as he sings it. It is true
there is not much in them, and any words or ex-
pression, no matter how absurd or incongruous, will
answer as long as they rhyme with the line before.
Although they are often without sequence they are
not without music, and are as inspiriting to the
sailor as the fife and drum is to the soldier. On
one occasion at sea, after reefing the foresail in a
gale, the united efforts of the whole crew were un-
able to board the foretack, or get it hauled down
to its place on the cathead, until the mate of the
watch called out : " Strike up a shantie there, one
of you men." The "shantie" was struck up; the
chorus was like a shout of defiance at the elements.
It was fighting the gale, and was as inspiriting as
a cavalry charge, and perhaps as hazardous. I
enjoyed it, although every now and again a sea
would break over the bows, drenching and blinding
every one. The mate's voice would be heard shout-
ing encouragingly to the men at each pull : " Well
done, down with it, men, it must come ; time the
weather roll, bravo ; " and at every shout of the
chorus the men threw their whole weight, with a
will, into the foretack, and down it came inch by
inch steadily, and after a fierce struggle the tack
was belayed and the crew were victorious.

The " shantie " sung this morning on getting
under weigh and setting the topsails, we often
heard on the passage to England, and is a good
specimen of sailors' " shanties ; " the men have
breathing time to collect their strength and pre-
pare themselves for the pull, while the " shantie
man" is giving out the verse. At every repetition
of the word " Hilo " in the chorus the men all pull
together with a jerk, hoisting the heavy yard and
fiail several inches at every pull. " Give us * Hilo,'
Chips,'^ the men said to the carpenter, and he
began. The preliminary "Oh" long drawn out at
the beginning of each verse was to gain time to
improvise the verse :

Oh-o, up aloft this yard must go,

Chorus by all hands : Hilo, boys, hilo I
I heard our bully mate say so.

Hilo, boys, hilo !

Oh-o, hilo, bullies, and away we go,

Hilo, boys, hilo !
Hilo, boys, let her roll, o-he-yho.

Hilo, boys, hilo !

Oh-o, I knocked at the yellow girl's door last night,

Hilo, boys, hilo !

She opened the door and let me in.

Hilo, boys, hilo I

Oh-o, I opened the door with a silver key,

Hilo, boys, hilo !

The yellow girl a-livo-lick-alimbo-lee.

Hilo, boys, hilo t

Oh-o, watchman, watchman, don't take me !

Hilo, boys, hilo !
For I have a wife and a large familee.

Hilo, boys, hilo !

Oh-o, two behind, and one before,

Hilo, boys, hit© I
And they marched me off to the watchhouse door.

Hilo, boys, hilo !

Oh-o, Where's the man that bewitched the tureen ?

Hilo, boys, hilo !
Look in the galley and there you'll see him.

Hilo, boys, hilo !

Oh-o, the mate's on foc*sle, and the skipper's on the poop^

Hilo, boys, hilo !

And the cook's in the galley, playing with the soup.

Hilo, boys, hilo !

Oh-o, the geece like the gander and the ducks like the drake»

Hilo, boys, hilo !

And sweet Judy Callaghan, I'd die for your sake.

Hilo, boys, hilo I


" Oh, belay ! " shouts the mate, cutting short
the "shantie," for the yard is mastheaded. The
main - topsail was next mastheaded, and the yard
braced by, and then again came the order to man
the windlass once again.
//

"Mr. Robinson"'s recording is part of the James Madison Carpenter Collection. Anyone heard it?

Terry's printed version differs from Hugill's melody most noticeably in that the former is in a major key, the latter in minor. Sometimes, I suspect, these authors did not quite know what to do with "blue notes" or other non-equal-tempered pitches, it because of this things could flip flop between minor and major in their transcriptions.

Alan Mills' widely available recording, I'm willing to bet, was based on Terry's text.

Bert Lloyd et al appeared again on the SAILORS' GARLAND album singing this. I don't have it. Any chance you folks could tell me what it sounds like? There is a good chance that it correspond to Terry's, I'd expect.

For comparison of tune, here is a performance of Hugill's noted melody. When I recorded it, I had not heard any recording or live performance of it, so it is uninfluenced and based only on my reading of Hugill.

The solo lyrics seem to borrow from another song, perhaps "The Crow Song." I wonder if even "Twa Corbies" might have been a model??

Pending knowledge of whether or not Lloyd learned his from an authentic oral source, there seems fair evidence to argue that the oral link to this chantey has been broken.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: curmudgeon
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 06:26 PM

Some additions and clarifications. It was MacColl who sang Hilo John Brown on the Sailor's Garland, not Lloyd. And if memory serves me, he did not include the "O" after Way,Hey, Sally! Unfortunately the LP player is covered with stuff right now.

When Terry was collecting, he was learning from old sailors. He found that many of the younger ones had trouble differentiating Dorian and Mixolydian, and thus deferred to the interpretation of the older men.

It's taken me over twenty years to find a copy of Part Two; for a while, I doubted if it had been printed. Further, Terry, in the intro to that volume promises still another collection of which I know nothing else.

On the other hand there is the possibility of a reprint of both tomes. When I get the copy I ordered, I'll post info here for others - Tom


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 06:12 PM

Basil Lubbock, Deep Sea Warriors (1910). (As the "land of Canaan" was the biblical "Promised Land," I think Lubbock may have missed certain implications of the final couplet):

       "My Sal, she's a 'Badian bright mulatto,
                Wa-ay, sing Sally!
        Sally am de gal dat I lub dearly,
                Hi-lo, John Brown, stan' to yo' ground.

        Stan' to yo' ground an' walk him up likely,       [sic]
                Wa-ay, sing Sally!
        Or de mate come around a-dingin' an' a-dancin',   [sic]
                Hi-lo, John Brown, stan' to yo' ground.

       Seven long year I courted Sally,
                Wa-ay, sing Sally !
        Mebbe mor', but I didn't keep no tally,
                Hi-lo, John Brown, stan' to yo' ground.

       Her cheeks so red an' her hair so curly,
                Wa-ay, sing Sally!

"Here the chanty became unprintable until the last verse, which was quite irrelevant to the rest of it:

        Nebber min' de wedder, but keep yo' legs togedder,
                Wa-ay, sing Sally!
        Fair land o' Canaan soon be a-showin',
                Hi-lo, John Brown, stan' to yo' ground."


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:00 PM

OK, so...

THE CLIPPER SHIP "SHEILA" (1921) is a diary of a voyage of a Captain W.H. Angel, in 1877, round trip from Liverpool with stops in Calcutta, Trinidad, and Guyana.

As they leave Demerara at one point, he notes this shanty:
//
Solo. Sally am de gal dat I lub dearly,
O Sally am de gal dat I lub dearly.

Chorus. Way, sing Sally,
Hilow, John Brown,
Stand to your ground.

Solo. Sally am de gal dat I lub dearly.
Her cheek so red an' her hair so curly.

Chorus.

Solo. Sally, she's a Badian bright mu-lat-to ;
Seven long years I courted Sally.

Chorus.

Solo. Nebber mind de weather, but keep yo's legs to-ged-der,
Fair land ob England, soon be showing.

Chorus.

General Chorus.
Stand to your ground, and walk him up lively.
Or de Bosun he come 'round a dingin and a dangin
Hilo, John Brown stand to your ground.
//

The Grand ("General") Chorus is interesting. This one also lacks the "Sally-O," which I allege was a contrivance of the Lloyd school.

It's unclear to me whether there might have been actual notated music in the book, because I am getting this off an Internet version produced with an optical text converter scanner thingey. There are, however, lots of ellipses between syllables, as if the text might be stretched out under a music staff. Has anyone got the actual published version?

For the record, here are other shanties quoted in the text. They are not index; one has to just pick them out (hopefully I didn't miss any):

Outward Bound
Unmooring
Good-bye Fare You Well ("...we're outward bound")
Across the Western Ocean ("Sheila whar you bound to?")
Bound for the Rio Grande
Reuben Rantzau
Sally Brown
Stormalong ("ay-ay-ay")
Poor Old Man
Drunken Sailor
Johnny Boker
Paddy Doyle
So Handy My Girls
Whiskey Johnnie
Poor Paddy Works on the Railway
Blow the Man Down
A Roving
Rolling Home
Hawl Away, Jo
Stand to Your Ground ("Hilo John Brown")
One More Day
Spanish Ladies

The entire book, which deals with transportation of indentured laborers in India to colonies in the Caribbean, should be fascinating reading. I notice that it has been reissued in a new edition somewheres. Something to add to the book wish-list...

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 01:06 PM

The shantyman's work is never done!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 11:42 AM

Yes, Barry, I may, thanks.
*******
Hi Lighter,

Lloyd sings "Stand to Your Ground" on A Sailor's Garland, which I believe was the first commercial recording of the song. My fallible recollection is that Killen's version is virtually identical to Lloyd's.
Ah yes, I knew I was forgetting some alternate title to search for. But I suspected Killen would have learned it from Lloyd or MacColl renditions, which may put us back in that predicament of Lloyd's 1950s renditions and where they came from.

Like Terry and Whall, Lloyd and Killen have "John Brown" rather than Hugill's "Johnny Brown." Terry says he heard the shanty from only two singers and prints Whall's melody as being superior to what he heard. However, Terry admits to changing W's G# to a G-natural because he believes the tune to be modal rather than minor.

Actually, Killen's has "Johnny"-- ? at least on the version I have (from the BLOW THE MAN DOWN album, which is supposed to be a re-release of the track from '64). I can't speak to Lloyd's, I don't have it.
I made a mistake in quoting Killen's version as "Way sing Sally O," when it's actually "Way HEY Sally O." Does Terry/Whall have "hey"? I will have to get a hold of Terry's weirdly elusive "Part 2" to compare the melodies. What he did sounds rather shady.


I just spotted another textual reference to this chantey, a 1921 publication THE CLIPPER SHIP "SHEILA". I've got to rush out now though, so will come back to it later.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 09:55 AM

Lloyd sings "Stand to Your Ground" on A Sailor's Garland, which I believe was the first commercial recording of the song. My fallible recollection is that Killen's version is virtually identical to Lloyd's.

Like Terry and Whall, Lloyd and Killen have "John Brown" rather than Hugill's "Johnny Brown." Terry says he heard the shanty from only two singers and prints Whall's melody as being superior to what he heard. However, Terry admits to changing W's G# to a G-natural because he believes the tune to be modal rather than minor.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:59 PM

Gibb, you can ask Lou, he'll be at Mystic. You could probably ask Stan's sons a lot of questions too, both Martain & Philip Hugill will be there also.
I understand if you don't want to wait that long though

Barry


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:26 PM

The next chantey that I propose to be among the "broken-link" ones is

"Hilo Johnny Brown"

Print: Hugill; Terry; Whall
Performers (recorded): Louis Killen (1964); Roy Harris, A.L. Lloyd et al (1974); Danny Spooner; some Polish groups

This one fits well into the issues of what went down in the English chantey-revival in those seminal years of the mid 50s to mid 60s.

Lou Killen's recording is well known, but I don't think Hugill recorded it (nor any one else before that time, 1964). I do not have Terry's "Part II" text, or Whall's, but I am guessing that they did not have a bearing on that recording. It would be great if someone with those books could compare the tunes (Hugill says that they are very similar to his tune, except that Whall's uses a G#, what would be a major seventh degree in a minor key-- so that's probably not it).

A bunch of people around here I'm sure know Lou Killen. Insight would be welcome as to what his process was, in those early days of his singing career, for learning and working up chanteys.

The issue with this one is that his tune (and in a way, chorus words) do not match Hugill's notated version. Was this learned orally from Hugill during such interactions as those mentioned by Lighter on Date: 06 Apr 09 - 06:50 PM ? --In which case, as is not unusual, Hugill's print version is "off" from how he'd sing it? Or was it learned from the text and...mis-read? If the latter is the case-- and with no disrespect to Killen, one of the great and influential voices of the UK revival-- then...so far as other renditions tend to be derivative of this recording...we can say that the oral link to this chantey's past does not exist.

About Hugill's notated version:
He has the chorus as "Way sing Sally". In Killen's recording it becomes "Way sing Sally-O." In the notation, "Sally" is followed by "Oooh!", but in the first verse only where, by the convention established elsewhere in the book, its spelling and the ~squiggle~ notation over it indicate that it is part of the solo. Some rhythms and pitches are different, too, but in my opinion those are less significant indicators of a possible reading-mistake since they are just as easily a notation-mistake. For comparison purposes, here is an example of a closer approximation to the tune that Hugill notated. example

In sum: The folk process is one thing. But there seems to be a "mistake" here, either in Hugill's book or in Killen's (and subsequent) recordings. Either way, it is notable that this chantey went off track.

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 01:51 PM

I think you're the first to record the singing of this one, G.S.

Masefield entered the school-ship Conway as a student in 1891, at thirteen, and made his second and final transatlantic voyage as a sailor in 1895, a full generation before Hugill went to sea. So presumably he heard most or all of his shanties in the early 1890s.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:28 PM

Adding another to the list of less-heard chanteys....

"Tommy's On the Tops'l Yard"

Print: Hugill; Masefield (1906), "Roll and Go" - text only
Performers: ??

Hugill "picked it up in the West Indies." Though this halyard chantey has similarities to "Sally Brown," it's unique enough to be considered its own song.   

Who's performed it? Sources?

For reference, here's a sketchy example of it.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:50 AM

I have a copy of a Trinidadian song called 'Blow Nelson Blow' which tells the tale of a real event in the napoleonic wars when the Trinidadian garrison, mistaking nelson's fleet for the French, deserted their fort ( the Icehouse) after setting fire to it. Then to cover their guilt, blamed it on nelson and his men 'the night of the fire Lord Nelson came down, and stood his men in a line to blow ther icehouse down.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 10:37 PM

Great, great insight. Thanks, guys.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:38 PM

It's doubtful that Lloyd heard any Hugill-style singing in his seven months in "Southern Empress" in the '30s. According to his notes to "Leviathan!" (1967), the Welshmen on board "sang all the time: hymns, Nelson Eddy numbers, 'Just before the battle, mother' ...[and] 'The Indian Love Call.'" The rest of the crew, including Lloyd, "mostly sang film-hits or Victorian and Edwardian tear-jerkers, only a few whaling songs - 'Greenland Bound,' 'The Diamond,'...'The Balaena,'...'Off to Sea Once More.'"

It's hard to imagine where MacColl learned his "hitches," if not from a real shantyman, either in person or from some field recording.

Point of interest: "hitches" are far from general among Carpenter's singers on the two Folktrax discs. That suggests the likelihood that many shantymen sang at work without much "ornamentation." Of course, age and the recording context may have kept some of Carpenter's chaps from cutting loose. And none of the recorded singers seem to have been from the Indies - East or West.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:10 PM

There are thousands of uses of the name Lucy Loo (Lou); the two come together naturally.

The chantey needn't have a predecessor but see the song, "Lucy Loo," written in 1896 by Herbert N. Farrar and A. B. Sloane; a copy at the NY Public Library.
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/index.cfm

"Looping the Loop with Lucy Loo" was an early British airforce song, c. 1914-1916, with its own tune. "Airman's Song Book," 1945, Ward-Jackson and Leighton Lucas.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:24 PM

Funny also the preponderance of "long", i.e. Lucy- / Storma-

And in addition to "get-along" and "walk-along" there's also "jim along" as found in 19th century (and earlier?) Southern African American dance song Jim Along Josie.

Just guessing (somewhat seriously), I'd say it has to do with bragging about the size of a particular male body part. ;o)


**

Btw, I want to clarify that I don't think that Shango, the Yoruba orisa (god) of thunder & lightning-who carried a double headed axe like the Scandinavian god Thor-had anything what so ever to do with naming Black heroes "John". I was talking more about the image of Shango that may have been grafted on to those Black folk heroes.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:17 PM

Lighter,

Great stuff, thanks. What you say sounds very likely.

And no, I never imagined an "elaborate counterfeit" :) but I do think that secondary sources had their influence on some of Hugill's notated versions of chanteys. Since, as I understand it, he did not notated them, his naturally-human memory was subject to new influences as the years passed. The scenario I meant to propose was that Hugill did learn the chantey from Harding, but that by the time he got it in print, his remembered version of that had been influenced by hearing the other.

Since the question of "Well, then where did Lloyd get it from?" has no immediate answer, your solution sounds best.

Effective argument about the 'hitch.' But surely (playing Devil's advocate here) Lloyd (the ex-seaman) and MacColl had access to this stylistic device through other chanteymen. too?

If Hugill by chance recorded this one for the BBC, I'd love to hear it; I don't think I've ever heard him quite in that style.

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 06:55 PM

One more...

"Miss Lucy Loo"

Print: Hugill
Performers: Shifty Sailors (?); ??

Notes:
Hugill says very little about this one. Learned (seems, collected) in Trinidad. Heard it could be for halyards or for working cargo. That's about it!

There doesn't appear to be an oral link to this one at all. Anyone? Who performs it? Their source?

Here's one guess at what it could sound like


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 06:50 PM

Re Lloyd and Hugill before 1961:

Hugill writes that in the mid '50s he "contacted the Folk Song Department of the B.B.C." and "recorded several of the rarer shanties for their Permanent Records Library." He "also became known at Cecil Sharp House, the headquarters of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, where I was asked to give talks on the subject of shantying and shanties and where I met many well-known collectors ofsea-songs and shanties, with whom I exchanged notes on the subject."

Hugill even refers to "an excellent recording of sixteen sea-songs (forebitters) and shanties sung in fine imitation of the true style, and in particular the Liverpool seaman's style." This must be the Topic LP "The Singing Sailor," issued 1956/57, featuring Lloyd, MacColl, and the actor Harry Corbett

http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/lloyd/records/thesingingsailor.html

"Stormalong John" appeared on the 1957 Topic sequel, "The Black Ball Line," with MacColl as shantyman.   

It thus seems probable after all that Lloyd and MacColl got "Stormalong John" directly from Hugill rather than the other way around.

MacColl's "hitches" in the shanty (probably never heard before on a commercial shanty recording) are more likely to be from Hugill's influence than to be a component of an elaborate counterfeit.

The simplest explanation seems to be that "Stormalong John" came to MacColl from Harding via Hugill.

I don't believe Hugill would ever have claimed he'd learned "Stormalong John" from Harding if in fact he'd only heard it on a "revival" record (or even on a B.B.C. recording) just a few years earlier.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:22 PM

Thanks, Azizi

I agree, there's definitely something to do with motion to "stormalong," like "get along." The phrase "walkalong" (often spelled as one word) is also very very common in chanteys. I really don't know, but if I had to guess though I'd say that that 'poetic' aspect was something that was played with due to the sound of the name. In other words, the name (say for argument, "Shango") came first, and as it sounded like an " X along", with the very poetic "stormy" aspect, it became the subject of verbal play. The most striking chorus is the one "come along, get along, stormy along, John." Anyways, all just speculation.

"John" is also very generic for any random "sailor" (and to some extent, any random "man") so that one is probably a less fruitful line of inquiry.

Funny also the preponderance of "long", i.e. Lucy- / Storma-


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 01:57 PM

Correction:

However, this article indicates that evidence points to the "John" and the "High John The Conqueror" stories being told post-slavery and not during slavery.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM

Thanks for your response Gibb and I'll be on the look-out for references to "Stormalong".

It might be significant that the name of the shanty folk hero is "John" as "John" and "High John The Conqueror" ("High John the Conqueroo"; "High John the Conker" are names of two different Southern African American folk heroes. See this Wikipedia page
John The Conqueror.

However, this article indicates that evidence points to the "John" and the "High John The Conqueror" stories being told about post-slavery and not during slavery. http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/bassr/heath/syllabuild/iguide/african.html "African-American Folktales"
Contributing Editor: Susan L. Blake.

**

For what it's worth, (because sometimes comments from people new to a subject might be helpful), it seems to me from reading the lyrics that are posted on this thead that "Stormy" and "Stormalong" are nicknames for the character named "John"

"To me way, you STorm Along"
"Aye-aye, aye, Mister Storm Along"

AND that "storm along" may also refer to how a person (should) move in spite of any storms (whether they be physical or otherwise). I don't know these songs, but I'm wondering if it would fit if "storm along" meant something like "move fast (and with confidence)?

"Yankee Johnny would you stormalong
Brave bad Johnny, would you stormalong"

**

That phrase "storm along" reminds me of the phrase "get along" and also puts me to mind of the line "Walk Chalk, Ginger Blue" that I discussed in this Mudcat post thread.cfm?threadid=47413#1702596 "Lyr Add: Sail on, Chalk Ginger Blue!" The key sentence in that post regarding "walk chalk" is "Walk a chalk line" comes from the dance later known as the "cakewalk" but here-in my opinion- means to walk through life with caution {given the dangerous, difficult circumstances one faces}.

**

Also, for what it's worth Shango is a very important Nigerian god that was transplanted to the Caribbean and the Americas was associated with thunder and lightning (hence, storms). Shango's name is actually spelled "Sango" which some could think is similar to "Shane" or "John", but I think that's too wide a speculation. I think the name "John" was used because it was a very common name. But "Shango" could have set the stage and reinforced the view that someone who faces storms was particularly "bad" (in this context meaning "very good" and courageous).

**

Again, I'll be alert to any references I find to "Stormy John" in any books or articles that I come across.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:20 PM

P.S., "Lindy Loo" is there in chanteys, too.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:18 PM

Hi Azizi,

Sorry for not responding earlier. In answer to your questions I can only give my present opinion, since I don't know that much about the subject: It seems like the "Miss Lucy Long" in the chantey comes in just as a "floating" signifier. As you said, "Lucy Long" was a very popular minstrel song and because of that, it became a trope in many songs. As I understand it, the Miss Lucy Long of the original song was portrayed in stereotypically grotesque terms -- a promiscuous yet not very attractive lady, perhaps crass (as in the children's rhyme). Some of these connotations probably remained linked with the name (i.e. it wasn't just a name, in neutral terms, that appeared in later songs). In this chantey, there is a hint of misogyny, based in the sort of "Jezebel" connotations of "Lucy Long." Also, I feel pretty sure that when one hears the name it is understood that the lady is Black.

More popularly used as a generic name, and usually implying a mixed-race woman, is the ubiquitous "Sally Brown."

Another Lucy, "Miss Lucy Loo" from Trinidad, appears in some chanteys (I'll be posting about one, soon). Note that "Lucy Loo" though has also appeared as a Chinese name in at least one chantey (Lucy Lui?).

These are just my personal impressions.

As to your rhetorical question, I dont know why, but "Lucy Long" just sounds like a cool, alliterative name for a flashy lady. It has the "ring" of a lot of cutesy American names like a "Cindy Sue" or something. Perhaps it just "sounds good" because it has become so culturally ingrained. But I also would guess there is something phonological about it. Could "Looby Loo" (of the children's game-song) have any relation? That's one I remember from when I was little, and it always felt fun to say "looby loo"/"looby lie"!

A request in turn: if you happen to stumble upon any revealing references to Stormalong (a folk-hero that appears in many chanteys of African-American origin) please do let us know, thanks!

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:34 PM

Hi Tom and Charley,

So there a fair amount pre-Hugill for Lloyd et al to draw on.

With regard to "Stormalong" two other collectors who published versions of this work song decades before Hugill did…

Yes, but, again, the one that I'm talking about with regards to Lloyd et. al. is a completely different tune than these others that are in all the collections-- unless I've missed it.

*********
Let me attempt to sort it a bit, since the titles and variants get very confusing! Here is a survey of distinctly different "Stormy" chanteys. For reference (arbitrary), I'll use the names given by Hugill. I'm also going to put the link to my youtube versions, not because they are any good or accurate in any way, but just as a reference for the tune/chorus. The verses are, of course, completely interchangeable and very similar so we can't use the lyrics to distinguish these; we need the tune.

#1. Hugill: "Mister Stormalong" ("Stormalong," "Captain Stormalong") LISTEN
Bullen: "Storm-Along"
Colcord: "Stormalong"
Terry
Sharp: "Old Stormey"
Doerflinger
LA Smith (text only)
C Fox Smith: "Stormalong"
J.E. Thomas(1926)
?Davis & Tozer: "Stormalong"
?Whall: "Stormalong"
?Frothingham (1924): "Stormalong"
Harlow: "Storm Along John" AND "Stormy"

CHORUS:
To me way, you Stormalong
Ay ay ay! Mister Stormalong

#2. Hugill: "Stormy Along, John" ("Come Along, Git Along…")LISTEN
Terry: "Stormalong John"
Sharp: "Stormalong John"
LA Smith
?Masefield (1906):"Storm Along"
Harlow: "Storm Along John II" AND "Old Stormy"

CHORUS
Stormy along, boys, Stormalong John
Aha! Come along, git-along, stormy along, John

#3. Hugill: "Stormalong, Lads, Stormy" ("Ol' Stormalong") LiSTEN
Sharp: "Wo Stormalong"

CHORUS
Ol' Stormalong!
Stormalong, lads, Stormy

#4. Hugill: "'Way Stormalong John" ("Mister Stormalong John") LiSTEN
Harlow: "Stormy II" has some similarities, but appreciably different

#5. Hugill: "Walk Me Along, Johnny" ("Walk Him Along John", "General Taylor")LiSTEN
Nordhoff (hoosiers' chant, text only)
LA Smith (text only)
Terry
Sharp: "General Taylor"

CHORUS:
Walk me along Johnny, carry me along
Carry me to the burying ground
Then away—O storm and blow…

#6. Hugill: "Yankee John, Stormalong" LISTEN
Bullen: "Liza Lee"
Terry
Sharp: "Liza Lee"
Colcord (reprint of Sharp)

CHORUS:
Yankee John, Stormalong

#7. Beck: "Stormalong"

CHORUS:
Yankee Johnny would you stormalong
Brave bad Johnny, would you stormalong

#8. Harlow: "Storm Along John III"
Combines features of #1 and #2

********
Assorted notes…

I don't have with me several texts, like Shay, Shaw, CF Smith, and also my Doerflinger is not at hand. I put a question mark preceding some where I wasn't sure if the song listed as "Stormalong" fit that particular variant.

#1 is the common chantey. It's oral thread continues unbroken.

#2 is the next most common. Hughie Jones has recorded it, listen here, and even that Robert Shaw Chorale did it in 1960. I'd imagine the oral tradition of this would have been healthy.

#3 was noted above on Date: 03 Apr 09 - 11:45 PM. I believe this is probably one of the broken-link chanteys.

#4 is the other broken-link chantey. Harlow lists a variant that is kind of close in some respects, but not really the same. However, the correspondence between between MacColl/Lloyd's 1957 recording and Hugill's 1961 text…having so far found no other texts or earlier recordings…is mysterious! Let's say that Lloyd learned it at sea and Hugill also did get it the same way from Harding. It is still curious that no others picked up on it.

#5, well known by people nowadays, but I am intrigued by TomB's comment,

It may be surprising, given its widespread popularity in the revival, that this shanty is comes only from Sharp & Terry (i.e. Short, ) – and of course Stan had his own Harding the Barbadian version.

It would be good to look into this further to see if nowadays-known versions have a basis in oral versions or in text. I can tell for example that very many of the current versions are imitations of the recording by the Canadian Maritime band, Great Big Sea, itself seeming to be a contrived version IMHO. (It's funny how this song, probably originating among African-Americans of the Deep South, has been recruited as part of a sort of Newfie nationalism.)

#6 is quite different in each printing. Luckily, we do have an oral source in the form of the 1962 recording by Alan Lomax –the one that corresponds to Abrahams text. (And the one I assume was the source for Kasin and Adrianowicz's version)
HOWEVER, there is that question again—Hugill's version, for example, is very different from the Lomax recording. It might represent a different form of "Yankee John" (it most closely resembles Bullen's print version), in which case the oral link to that one appears to be broken. Alternatively, it might just be a horrible failure at remembering/rendering and/or notating the song. I am drawn to rumanci's comment, above:

One thing I CAN add from a dearly remembered workshop given at a Loughborough festival donkeys' years ago by Stan himself, is that unless carried away by going down side alleys of conversation (a frequent, delightful trait FYI) and using collected and shared Caribbean shanties to illustrate a point, he chose rarely to SING some of them himself BECAUSE he felt his Welsh lilt couldn't QUITE do them justice so he preferred to steer people to hear the sources for accuracy and rhythm.

Stan may have just been unable to get the "Caribbean" style, and these attempts at writing them down were very sketchy at best. If this is the case, there is little point in trying recreate Stan notation of this and many other broken-link chanteys….Caribbean ones…ones mostly obtained from Harding…because what's printed is so off.

#7 and #8 are further "Stormy" forms that did not have close correspondences among Hugill's versions.

A quote from Harlow:
"Storm Along John was very popular on all merchantmen, but the 'Badian negroes took great delight in singing the words in many variations and once started would sing one after another, changing the air to suit their mood


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 02:20 PM

To add to those F.P.Harlow has 6 none with the grand chorus

Storm Along John (Halliards)
with 2 line refrain
"To me way-hey-a Mister Strom Along"
"To me way, oh, Storm Along"

Storm Along John II (Halliards)
"To me way-a, Storm Along"
"Oh, come alon, get along, Storm Along John"

Storm Along John III (Halliards, Hand over hand)
"To me way, hey, Storm Along John"
"High-aye-aye Mister Storm Along"

Stormy (Halliards, hand over hand)
"To me way, you STorm Along"
"Aye-aye, aye, Mister Storm Along

Stormy II (Halliards, Hand over hand)
"To me way-oh, Storm Along John"
Way-oh, Storm Along John"

OLd Stormy (Hand Over Hand)
"To me way, hey, Storm Along Jon"
"Ah-ha! Come along get along, Storm Along John"

Barry


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 10:44 AM

With regard to "Stormalong" two other collectors who published versions of this work song decades before Hugill did were Joannna Colcord in SONGS OF THE AMERICAN SAILORMEN (1924) and Cicely Fox Smith in A BOOK OF SHANTIES (1927).

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 05:07 AM

Short had four shanties inclusing Stormy.

CARRY HIM TO THE BURYING GROUND (GENERAL TAYLOR) (2903)
It may be surprising, given its widespread popularity in the revival, that this shanty is comes only from Sharp & Terry (i.e. Short, ) – and of course Stan had his own Harding the Barbadian version. SHARP: 'I know of no other printed versions of this chantey, nor have I heard it sung by anybody else. The grace notes in the chorus are very remarkable and were beautifully sung by Mr. Short.' TERRY: 'I have heard no one sing this save Mr. Short. The tune differs at several points (notably bars 6 & 7, page 59) from C.J. Sharp's printed version taken down from Mr. Short. But I have set it down exactly as he sang it to me.' HUGILL "[this] comes from the same [gulf port or West Indian] part of the world and in all probability has stemmed from a slave song. [gives close variant – from Harding the Barbarian]. May of the ordinary and the 'liverning up' verses from Mister Stormalong were used to this tune."   Note Sharp's very detailed transcription of Short's decoration – particularly compared to Terry's minimal effort! Stormy only appears in the chorus, verses include General Taylor, Dan O' Connel & Wish I was in etc.

OLD STORMEY (MISTER STORMALONG/AY-AY-AY) (2896).
Very widely published - right back to 1880s by L.A.SMITH "A hint of decidedly negro origin in the word 'Massa', A great favourite often sung after a gale of wind. Notes the contrast between solemnity of the tune and the mock-seriousness of the words." Short's word-set is the general Wish I was Old Stormy's son, Saw him die, chains & spades, verses.

STORMALONG JOHN (STORMY ALONG JOHN)(2928). Again, published by L.A.SMITH "The oldest of these [Stormy] songs [this] is rather the best." SHARP 20: "This is apparently an entirely different chantey from "Old Stormey" (No. 34) although the words of the first two verses are the same. Know of no variants except one given by Miss Smith (p. 16)." TERRY 10. This is one of the many shanties with 'Stormy' as their hero. Whatever other verses were extemporized, those relating to digging his grave with a silver spade, and lowering him down with a golden chain, were rarely omitted. Other favourite verses were: (a) I wish I was old Stormy's son. (b) I'd build a ship a thousand ton." COLCORD: [from notes to Mister Stormalong]. "Another version, differing somewhat both in words and tune, was used for pumping:
        Stormalong and round she'll go,
        To me way, aye, Stormalong John!
        Stormalong through frost and snow,
        Come along, get along, Stormalong John."

LIZA LEE (YANKEE JOHN STOMALONG)(2956) SHARP: "The only variant of this that I know of is printed by Bullen (No. 27)." TERRY2: Sung to me by Mr. Short. It is a better version than those sung by Sir Walter Runciman and others. I have... given Mr. Short's version." HUGILL: "For the last of the Stormalong family we have: [this]" No source given, but not Short's tune. Shorts word-set = Liza Lee she promised/slighted me & floating verses such as Up aloft this yard must go, etc.

So there a fair amount pre-Hugill for Lloyd et al to draw on.

TomB


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:13 PM

Hi Barry,

I don't know if you're mis-reading my post or if I am mis-reading yours.

Yes, "[Mister] Stormalong" -- let's call it the "default version" -- is there in plenty; it's NOT necessarilly a "rare" chantey in the oral tradition at all. Incidentally, Bob Robert's rendition is VERY similar to Hugill's printed version, whereas many other recorded versions that I've heard have a different tune. So I wouldn't be surprised if Hugill was his source. For comparison purposes, here is my rendition of that. here In this case I ignored versions of the tune that I'd heard and just went directly from Hugill's text. The result is surprisingly similar to Bob Roberts'.

"Way Stormalong John" is the uncommon one, the one where I raised my question about its lineage and Lloyd/MacColl's role in transmitting it.

The first one Hugill learned in the cradle; the second one, so he says, he learned from Harding.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:35 PM

Gibb, the '"Mister Stormalong", aka just "Stormalong" (this is the one with 'aye aye aye' in the chorus)"'. That's the version Bob Roberts has on the CD mentioned above. All he says in the notes concerning where he has it from " Previously noted from old shanteymen in both England & Wales". Common enough source for Lloyd/MacColl??? (so common it's found in the collections of plenty)If you'd like further info on Bob's origins of the songyou might ask Danny Spooner when he comes to Mystic. He was a young deckhand to BoB. The only dating of this CD & it's field recording by Peter Kennedy was between 1950-1950.

Beck's version (Yankee John, Stormalong) though West Indian is very different from Hugil's & Abrahams' versions which are very similar.

Barry


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 03:50 PM

I hope that this isn't considered to be too off-topic:

I'm interested in finding possible sources for children's playground rhymes. That being the case, I'm alert to verses in old songs that are the same as or similar to verses given for those rhymes. For instance, this verse for the shanty "Lucy Long" that was included in doc.tom's 04 Apr 09 - 05:12 AM post:

"Miss Lucy had a baby
She dressed it all in green"

seems very similar to the title and this verse from the widely known playground rhyme "Miss Lucy Had A Baby"

Miss Lucy had a baby
His name was Tiny Tim
She put him in the bathtub
To see if he could swim

-snip-

Is there a connection between these verses or is this just a coincidence?

**

There's a Mudcat thread on Bang Bang Rosie on which a number of members and guests have posted examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" (and a related rhyme "Miss Susie [or Lucie or some other female] Had A Steamboat"}. See this excerpt from one post on that thread:

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bang Bang Rosie
From: JohnInKansas - PM
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:07 PM

Guy Logsden records about a dozen verses, in The Whorehouse Bells Were Ringing: and other songs cowboys sing, for "My Lulu Gal." Alternate titles noted include "Lula," "My Lulu," "Bang Away, My Lulu," Bang, Bang Lulu," "She Is a Lulu," "and many more."

Collection notes indicate the first printed reference to "Lulu" in cowboy song is from 1902, when Owen Wister has the hero in The Virginian sing one verse. The verse used is commonly known, but Wister stated "that the other 78 verses were unprintable...

-snip-

I believe that there's a connection between the minstrel song "Lucy Long" and these "Bang Bang Lulu" verses. Now I'm wondering if there is also a connection between the shanty "Lucy Long" and those "Bang Bang Lulu" verses.

Also, for what it's worth, there's this mention of "Lucy Long" in the 19th century "plantation" dance song "Old Joe Clark":

"Fare thee well, Old Joe Clark
Fare thee well (I sing) (I say) (I'm gone)
He'd foller me ten thousand miles
(To hear my banjo ring) (To hear my fiddle play) (Goodby Lucy Long)"

@displaysong.cfm?SongID=4411

Of course, it's more likely that the name "Lucy Long" was included in that song because of the "popular" ministrel song and not because of the shanty...then again from where did the composers of the "Lucy Long" minstrel song get that name?

This last question was rhetorical, but the other questions weren't.

Thanks in advance for any responses to these questions.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,rumanci
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 02:49 PM

Great, GREAT thread.   Thanks for all the fascinating new info to digest.   Wish I was sat in front of all my music and other things collected over the years to contribute some nuggets of gold too ! Hopefully, some time soon.

One thing I CAN add from a dearly remembered workshop given at a Loughborough festival donkeys' years ago by Stan himself, is that unless carried away by going down side alleys of conversation (a frequent, delightful trait FYI) and using collected and shared Caribbean shanties to illustrate a point, he chose rarely to SING some of them himself BECAUSE he felt his Welsh lilt couldn't QUITE do them justice so he preferred to steer people to hear the sources for accuracy and rhythm.

rum


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 02:44 PM

To add a little bit to Barry's list of other "Stormalong" type performances...

*****
"Mister Stormalong", aka just "Stormalong" (this is the one with 'aye aye aye' in the chorus)

This is prob. the most common chantey with the theme, the current 'default' as it were. Actually, it's been recorded a lot (including by Stan Hugill, who wrote that his mother sung it to him as a boy), in addition to being printed in so many collections, so I don't think it's one of these "broken link" chanteys.
*****

"Way Stormalong John"

Print: Hugill; ???
Performers: Ewan MacColl;

Notes:
Ewan MacColl & AL Lloyd recorded it in 1957 (released on more than one album - see here ). Hugill's print text didnt come until after that, and they are remarkably similar. I don't presently find any earlier print versions (though one tends to get mixed up with all the Stormy variations). Hugill says he learned it from Harding.

Does anyone know of earlier printings, that may have been a source for lloyd/MacColl? (Lloyd, of course, learned many through the oral tradition, so there isnt necesarilly one.) The plot thickens... We know that Hugill was well taken by these 1950s recordings. Could this be a case of Hugill following a recently-heard form?

In case you need reference to which "Stormy" this is, here's a scratchy + authentically-amateurish version!

****
more to come


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:36 PM

Although Rosabella has been discussed a bit earlier, this new info is really interesting. The working idea, in summary, is:

John Short's singing > Sharp's text > TomB & BB > Collins & Mageean > most others, including Stan Hugill

This the kind of stuff I find really interesting. If you could not already tell, I am a very skeptical person when it comes to sources and "origins." Not that I don't enjoy everything and anything regardless of the source! I just find it fascinating how forgetting, the folk process, and imagination all interact to shape our current perceptions of repertoire.

What really interests me about Stan Hugill's legacy is how is image as an "authority" (as indeed I think he was) feeds back into his scholarship. His text is a combination of tons of first-hand knowledge and lots of second hand sources, all mixed up with a few drops of "faith" which (unlike a writer like Doerflinger) adds enough ambiguity to give that sense of "it's all traditional...it's anonymous...we'll never know" etc. It all contributes to the effect of making the text like the "Bible."

Gibb


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:07 PM

Well, there's interesting! If Stan was singing it, he must've got it from Johnny & Jim as well. He didn't publish it - nor did Sharp - it was just sitting in the Sharp mss. till we found it in '79. (It is distinct enough to the Carpenter sets - although they are related - to be sure that Short was the only source for the Rosabella 'everybody' sings. The Beck 'Rosabella' is different again).

TomB


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:20 AM

I first heard Rosabella from Stan.


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Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:57 AM

TomB-

I'm been wondering where "Rosabella" came from. I believe we got it from the singing of Johnny Collins but had no clue to its origins.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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