'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc

Subject: 'Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:28 AM

I'm making this thread as a place to file certain kinds of similar chanteys in order to benefit from discussing them as a group. Let me first explain what I mean by the title of this thread.

There are numerous chanteys in Stan Hugill's SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS especially, and also in the collections of some earlier writers, that rarely appear in recent repertoires or recordings. A lot of these seem to be Caribbean or of less-determinate Black American origin. However, I'm not so interested in ascribing this or that origin, or any particular degree or "rarity"; I'm just trying to roughly circumscribe this certain body of songs.

There is a broken link: For whatever reasons (which could be discussed), these chanteys have not survived well in the revival era. This is despite the fact that they are easily available in Hugill's popular text. They could have been preserved or revived in oral tradition through Hugill's performances, but for debatable reasons they were not. So when they are occasionally performed, it is based on the somewhat sketchy notations of Hugill and/or the few other writers, with little or no basis in oral tradition.

Because they are comparatively rarely performed, they are little-known. I wanted to make this thread as a place to discuss these, which share similarities and are discussed well as a group. There is a discussion of them started here, and of course bits in various other threads, though hard to recognize and locate.

So far, I'd consider these to be in this category:

"Mudder Dinah" a.k.a. "Sing Sally, O!" (in 2 distinct forms)
"Shinbone Al" aka "Sister Susan" aka "Gwine to git Home"
"Round the Corner Sally"

The list is much much longer, but I don't have time to generate more names just now.

It would be great to have more additions…I'm particularly interested in compiling info on who is/was performing each this chanteys in recent times, where they learned them from, etc. Hopefully this isn't too confusing!

Gibb

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:49 AM

The American folklorist Roger Abrahams has written something on Caribbean sea shanties. I'm damned if I can remember what it was called or where it was published. But a bit of googling should get results.

Also check Rounder's Deep River of Song. Bahamas 1935: Chanteys and Anthems from Andros and Cat Island. Rounder 11661-1822-2, which has quite a few shanties.

Also, Nonesuch LP H-72013; The Real Bahamas in Music and Song, for a shanty called Sailboat Malarkey by Frederick McQueen.

I suspect that once you start looking, loads of stuff will turn up, both as shanties proper, and as shanties which have been adapted for other purposes. EG Caribbean Voyage: Brown Girl in the Ring. Game and Pass Play Songs Sung by Children and Adults from Trinidad, Tobago, Dominica, St Lucia, Anguilla, Nevis and Carriacou, Rounder CD 1716, has a game song called Coming Down With a Bunch of Roses, which is clearly related to Blood Red Roses.

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:54 AM

I'm pretty sure I've heard both "Shinbone Al" and "Round the Corner Sally" from Theresa Tooley (Shellback Chorus, UK and Mudcat's "treaties"). Heard other people sing them too, so I'm not sure what you're basing the "rarity" rating on - it may be that (at least until recently) this area (NW England) has been very well served with shanty festivals (particularly Lancaster/Glasson and Liverpool, with Hull just across the Pennines) and I've had a chance to hear many excellent shanty choirs and singers, both local and from Europe and USA, so it could just be accident that I have heard these songs and you haven't come across them. Another excellent local resource for shanty and sea-song material (CDs, tapes and books) has been the Chantey Cabin.
Liverpool's Stormalong John used to work with Stan Hugill and continue to keep many of his songs in their repertoire, many of them not so far on CD. Just looked through the listings on the Chantey Cabin website, but can't find the shanties you've mentioned.

Ross

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM

The Bahamian "The Captain Go Ashore" was recorded by Frederick McQueen, Andros Bahamas. And also by the Boat Band ("Take Me over the Tide, Harbourtown casette, 1990, to be reissued on CD May 1 2009 hint hint).
This is one of the shanties mentioned by Dana in "Two years before the mast", as being sung on American ships in thne 1850's. Hugill(introduction to "Shanties of the Seven Seas") thought the song was lost, but luckily Fwederick McQueen(and the Boat Band!) knew otherwise.

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:47 AM

Specifics, as always, are welcome. Thanks, guys.

It is not so much that these chanteys (not just the few I've listed so far, but the larger category) have "never" been performed, but rather that they have been performed so infrequently (or within such a limited area, as Ross suggested) that they are very poorly known to the chantey audience at large. The second part to this is, again, the issues of how the performances were created, i.e. whether they are imagined, as best as possible, from written text. I would guess that most of these recordings that one finds are recreations of the text.

The Bahamian recordings by Lomax present us with a slightly reverse scenario. We have these "authentic" versions, recorded for posterity and there is not so much of an issue of knowing what they are like (although more than one version is always helpful). Moreover, in several cases these recordings have been seized upon by revival singers and have since become both fairly well known and based on an aural source.

Abrahams' book is obviously the best source so far if we are just looking for Caribbean shanties, in conjunction with the more recent performances by the Barrouallie Whalers. But there are plenty of other chanteys that seem to have been popular back in the day, collected by Hugill, Bullen, Terry, Sharp, & Harlow that don't appear in these.

Out of the few listed so far, "Round the Corner, Sally" is definitely the most common, but I'm not sure if Hugill's significantly unique West Indian version is a part of that knowledge.

As a related note, one book that I don't seem to ever see mentioned, but which should accompany Abrahams', is Horace Beck's FOLKLORE AND THE SEA. He prints the following chanteys, having covered (in an albeit much more sketchy way) a similar ground as Abrahams:

Yado
Sam Gone Away
Ring Down Below
Ding Well
Mountains so High (related to Poor Lucy Anna / Louisiana)
Drive Her Captain Drive Her
Stormalong ("Yankee John" version)
Long Time Ago
Blow Boys Blow
Bulldog
Man o' War Sailor
Hilo
Rosabella
Old Moses
Pappy You Done Dead

Those being noted, the focus (for me) is not on "Caribbean" chanteys per se, it just happens that many of these chanteys in this category have been sourced from West Indian singers.

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:03 AM

So here is a summary so far of sources for the songs listed.

Mudder Dinah (Hugill's version A)
Print: Hugill, SEVEN SEAS; Bullen, SEA LABOUR + SEA WAIF
Performers: Rika Ruebsaat (?); Chris Roe /Broadside/St. Elmo's Choir

Mudder Dinah (version B)
Print: Hugill, SEVEN SEAS; Sharp, FOLK-CHANTEYS; Colcord (copy of Sharp)
Performers: Rika Ruebsaat (?)

Shinbone Al
Print:Hugill, SEVEN SEAS; Bullen; Harlow
Performers: Theresa Tooley

Round the Corner, Sally
Print: Hugill (a different version sung by Harding); Sharp; Terry; Dana (title only)
Performers: Paul Clayton; Theresa Tooley; more...

Subject: RE: "Rare" Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:45 AM

In my last post I forgot to list:

Mudder Dinah (Version A)
Performer: Pint & Dale

Round the Corner Sally
Performer: Pint & Dale

These two seem to have used Hugill's text as a source for non-chantey style music.

Tom Lewis also performs "Round the Corner," but in his own, new version.
Johnson Girls and Forebitter do "Roun' de Corn," a plantation song with a related phrase.

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Padre
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:12 PM

Roger D. Abraham's book is called, "Deep the Water, Shallow the Shore (Three Essays on Shantying in the West Indies)" Published for the American Folklore Society by the University of Texas Press in 1974.

It contains the following songs:

A Coolie is Nobody
All through the rain and Squally Weather (Blow My Bully Boy, Blow my Blow)
Bear Away Yankee, Bear Away Boy
Blackbird Get Up
Blow the Man Down
Bully Long Time Ago
Caesar Boy, Caesar
Caesar oh Caesar
Dan-Dan-Oh
Do my Jolly Boy
Feeny Brown
Fine Time o' Day
Fire Down Below
Georgy, Me Neck-a-Broke
Gray Goose Gone Home
Haul Away, Haul Away
Hey, Bully Monday
Jane and Louisa
John,John the Water Man
Johnny Come Down with a Hilo
Judiano
Lee-Lee-o, Lee-Lee
Little Boy Lonzo
Long Time Ago
Man-o-War Sailor
Michael Row the Boat Ashore
Oh, Louisiana
Oh, Mr. Cobeau
Oh, My Rolling River (Solid fas')
Pull away Me Boy
Royo Groun'
Shub Her Down
Sintali
St. Peter Down at Courland Bay
Those Girls From Bermuda
Tinnego
We Are Bound Down South Alabama
When You Go, Tell Julia
who No Been Out
Woman Belly Ful o' Hair
Yankee John, Stormalong
Yard-o

The Boarding Party sang several of these songs:
Yard-o
Solid Fas'
Blackbird Get Up
Caesar, Oh Caesar

Padre

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: JWB
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM

I performed with Stan several times at Mystic Seaport, and rarely heard him do the Carib. chanteys. He seemed to prefer the chanteys with a strong story line, which many of the West Indian songs lack.

The "popular" chanteys during the '70s and '80s (based on my experience) tended to be those from the deepwater sailors (North Atlantic packets and Cape Horners). In the mid-'90s we started hearing more of the songs of Caribbean origins at festivals and on recordings; Forebitter popularized several, and the NexTradition really got interest going.

Finn & Haddie's 2007 CD "Fathom This" has these West Indian chanteys (most from Abraham): Fine Time of Day, Hell of a Wedding, Coal Black Rosie, Georgie, Me Neck A Broke, St. Peter Down at Courland Bay, Feeny Brown.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:10 PM

Here's another of this category:
"Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown."
Print: Hugill; Colcord
Performance: William Fender (on Folktrax CD)

Some notes:

It is a halyard chantey. Hugill doesn't mention whom he learned it from; one presumes either Harding or "Harry Lauder."

The phrase "walkalong" is reminiscent of Gulf port cotton stowing songs, including the phamous "General Taylor / Walk-'em-along John" variant of the Stormalong theme.

The other collector who gives a version of this one is Joanna Colcord, who files it under the title "Juley." In her version, the name Susiana appears as Juliana.

There is a version of this recorded on cylinder in the James Madison Carpenter collection, by a William Fender, who notes to have learned it from a stevedore in the West Indies in 1888. It goes by the name "Saucy Anna," and though I've not heard it, I'm reasonably sure it is a related song. Mudcatter dick greenhaus notes it's inclusion on a Folktrax CD, under the title "Walkalong, You Saucy Anna," here
I know a few people here have that CD; I wonder how they would compare it to Hugill or Colcord's noted version. Of course I'd also be interested to hear whether anyone out there has included this in their repertoire.

My unripe rendition is here
I've had to alter the rhythm in one part of Hugill's notation, where it didn't make much sense; again, his transcriber seems to have been defeated by syncopation or some other irregular rhythm. Also, the notation is plagued by a common problem in his text, where the durational values on notes suddenly become doubled for a phrase, then halved again in the next phrase. I used Colcord's version to get an idea, but ultimately it is just a guess about which rhythms were really intended.

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:28 PM

Jerry,

Thank you very much for your details on what Stan recorded off record. I find it interesting (but not surprising) that although his SEVEN SEAS is pretty much the largest collection of chanteys, he is only known for performing a relatively small set of those. In his later books (for numerous easy to guess reasons, I think) he trims off all these "Harding chanteys" (Perhaps that is a better way to group them!). I wonder to what extend he "knew" them them well (i.e. in order to perform them) or knew them just enough to log them in his very inclusive first book.

"John Kanaka" is a funny anomaly, since I'd put it in this category and yet Hugill evidently liked it and chose to popularize it. Maybe it was because he liked doing that yodel. Maybe the story of "samoan" lyrics was gimmicky. But for whatever reason, the very similar and probably more popular "Mobile Bay / John Come tell us as we haul away" hasn't made it to any kind of renown.

Also interesting is that the more recent, wonderful interest in Caribbean chanteying still does not quite fill the gap of what seems to be many Caribbean-or-Southern-U.S.-or-minstrel-based chanteys that were once actually well known by Euro-Americans. It's mostly a different repertoire (I think?) than that represented by Abrahams, the Nevis whalers, etc.

Gibb

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:30 PM

I oly have 25 minutes left on this library computer, mine is done.
Thanks Jerry for your mention, drinks on me at Mystic.
I think the Johnson Girls have recorded a version of your "Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown", I'll have to check when I get home. There's also another recording from the Lomax collection "St Peter Was A Fisherman" I forget what islands they where collected from, St Peter's maybe, you'll find, I think 2 versions of "Yard-o".
Another group that did some BWI shanties was the now defunk 'Boarding Party'.
In Doerflinger's collection you'll also find shanties from the southern islands. "Knock a Man Down" a version of "Blow the Man Down" & from the mentoned collection above; Rounder's Deep River of Song. Bahamas 1935: Chanteys and Anthems from Andros and Cat Island. Rounder 11661-1822-2 you'll find in Doerflinger's "Come Down You Bunch of Roses" which was in 2 part harmony on the recording but is is eithe 3 or 4 part hamony on the Bording Party's CD. To whom I believe credit goes to Bob Walser for taking it & expanding the song's harmonic evolution.
When my computer's back up I'll revisit this thread.

Barry

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:46 PM

Ooops, I meant to type "performed off record."

Barry, I look forward to your insights. I was hoping you might spot this. For instance, I think "Roller Bowler," a song you guys champion, could be set it this category. Since you learned it via an oral tradition (as I understand it), it may be a chantey that escaped a death with the break of the oral link, which many others have not.

***
I've done a pretty crappy job so far trying to articulate the theme of this thread (though by no means is discussion limited to that theme). The thread title sucks. So one more try, now that I've though about it more:

There are a number of chanteys, ones that have been notated down (words + music) but for which the "chain" of oral transmission seems to have been broken. Yeah, maybe on some island somewhere people have handed down a version. But to the vast majority of the audience interested in chanteys, these are known only as print specimens. Interested people (in which I include myself) try a hand at developing renditions from print, but without any connection to earlier performances, we can only guess at how to perform them.

So I'm making an effort to gather info on sources for these, in an on-going list, in hopes to better inform performances, I guess. To see what other people have come up with in trying to render them, to see if any other print sources pop up to add clues.....and maybe with luck.....to see if anyone with versions handed down through an unbroken oral tradition is out there.

Gibb

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:48 PM

A few related notes - if they help at all!

Horace Beck: FOLKLORE AND THE SEA - his Rosabella is not the one 'everybody' sings. That came from John Short (Yankee Jack) to me & BB, thence to Collins & Mageean, thence to the world. It is one of Short's that Sharp did not publish. Short is the ONLY source apart from two close singe-verse variants noted by Carpenter.

Gibb Sahib's reference to Round the Corner Sally, above, include Sharp & Terry as sources - they both published John Short's version. At the time of publication,SHARP says: "I do not know of any printed version of this chantey, nor have I myself collected any variants", and TERRY says: "I have not heard anyone save Mr. Short sing this shanty." HUGILL - "Mentioned by Dana in Two Years Before the Mast... Terry & Sharp are the only two collectors who give it and both had it from the same shantyman, Mr. Short… My version is one of Harding's."

Similarly, with Bully In The Alley, SHARP says: "I have no variants of this nor do I know of any printed version of it." HUGILL:"Another halyard shanty of negro origin which I came across in the West Indies is Bully In The Alley. Sharp gives a version sung to him by Mr. john Short of Watchet in which all the refrains are the same but I feel that this version has all the signs of being in a worn condition, as though Mr. Short's memory, in this case, didn't serve him well... This shanty may have been one used originally by cotton screwers." In fact, Short's version is structurally different to the one Stan gives (and everybody else subseqently sings), and does appear to be much closer to an original hoosier's chant then Stan's!

It's fascinating to find that, of those shanties that Sharp/Terry published from John Short, which were not in other publications, Stan almost invariably a his own version either from 'Harding the Barbadian' or 'picked up in the West Indies'. Makes you wonder!

As to who sings them now, well, all John Short's versions of shanties (57 in all) will be newly recorded in the next 12 months in the 'Short Sharp Shanty' projects - see www.umbermusic.co.uk/s&aprojects.htm

I shall follow this thread with interest - thanks for starting it.

TomB

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:53 PM

TomB.

It's fascinating to find that, of those shanties that Sharp/Terry published from John Short, which were not in other publications, Stan almost invariably a his own version either from 'Harding the Barbadian' or 'picked up in the West Indies'. Makes you wonder!

I too am very very fascinated by this.
More later, gotta go to work now (night shift).

Barry, Johnson Girls recorded "Walkalong Miss Sally Brown." It is different, but probably also could go in this category.

Gibb

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: JeffB
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:31 PM

Some years ago Johnny Collins and Jim Mageean recorded "Coming of Age" (Columns Disc/ Universal Productions), a cracking good collection of 21 favourite shanties to celebrate 21 years singing together. If you can get hold of it, you will hear a number of WI shanties in fine style. Quoting their sleeve notes :-

Bully in the Alley - (WI halyards) One of several negro shanties referring to the place Shinbone Alley (geographical or anatomical?).

John Dead - (WI whaling) Collected in Barouvalie, St Vincent, by Roger Abrahams. It was used for calling out any 'chicken' negro whaler (Grey Goose [so-called in the shanty]) to come out and hunt "Mr Fox" (the whale). Brought to our attention by the fine Scottish shantyman Rob Mhacgregor.

Blackbird get up [mentioned by Padre above] - (WI whaling shanty) A shanty from Roger Abraham's collection "Deep the Water, Shallow the Shore", from the negro whalers of Barouvalie, St Vincent, who always sang this shanty when being rained upon.


The CD has a number of other shanties collected from black crews, but not necessarily Caribbean.

Not sure if you would include Florida for your purposes, but the CD also includes "Johnson girls", which the notes say was collected in 1940 from the crew of the Menhaden fishing vessel "The Boys", working out of Mayport.

A. L. Lloyd's version of "Emma let me be (Sail 'er down the bay to Julianna)" is well known, but Lloyd apparently altered the distinctive cadence of the song. Would like to know what it sounded like in the mouth of a WI shantyman. Subtle changes by collectors can be really significant, as any who can compare the "standard" version of "Sailboat Malachi" with the original recording of Frederick McQueen ("The Real Bahamas") will appreciate.

Not sure if you could strictly call it a shanty, maybe more of a stevedores' song, is "Fire Marengo".

I'm told that people of mixed race in the Caribeban in 19th cent were called "cholas", so perhaps "Shallow Brown" could be included. Admittedly, not at all rare.

Do you want to draw a line between Caribbean shanties and those sung by black American crews? If so, things could get tricky, but you would be able to include "Shiny-o", which had a thread to itself last year.

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:46 PM

I think the Starboard List recorded their rendition of "Bully in the Alley" around 1977.

Was it Ian Campbell who did "Lowlands Low" on Topic in the mid '60s?
(Not "Lowlands" but the one starting "Our Captain hails from Barbados....")

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM

Gibb-

Keep digging. This is getting interesting!

Another song that should be included (maybe I missed it) is the halyard shanty "Lowlands Low" which my group Roll & Go recorded in 2002 on Outward Bound.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:36 AM

Gibb - thanks for the re-definition - point taken. Perhaps the Hugill/Harding question should be a separate thread?

I was going to go through which of John Short's shanties were 'covered' by Stan as Harding/WestIndies - but it'll be a few weeks yet: will post when it's done. From the other direction, has anyone listed the 'Harding shanties' from Seven Seas? (or the 'picked up' for that matter).

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM

Tom,

I was going to go through which of John Short's shanties were 'covered' by Stan as Harding/WestIndies - but it'll be a few weeks yet: will post when it's done. From the other direction, has anyone listed the 'Harding shanties' from Seven Seas? (or the 'picked up' for that matter).

That would be very insightful, good idea.
I did once read through Hugill with an eye to which shanties were from Harding, but I didn't keep a strict list. My goal at the time was to sketch a rough picture of the percentages of what chanteys came from where. Needless to say, that is impossible to say with any accuracy since as many people would disagree on the origins (or dismiss the effort as rather pointless). The number of course will also vary widely depending on what you count variations. For whatever it's worth though, here are some of my stats:

Total number of shanties, not including textual variants or little "sing outs," is about 181. Usually I counted each different tune as a different chantey. "Blow the Man Down" was counted as a single chantey, despite there being "Flying Fish" version, "Blackballer" version, etc.

Of these,

78 were of "Black" origin. Out of those 78, I filed 47 as Black American and 31 as Caribbean. Keep in mind that this also includes minstrel song types, which are difficult to distinguish from authentic African-American songs of the period. Also, the Caribbean number may seem low because many of the chantey, even if learned from Harding, seemed to originate in the Southern U.S., as minstrel songs, etc.

14 were "Irish" or Irish-American. This does not include the minstrel songs, which are often a sort of Black-Irish combo. As already noted, I included those under "Black"--a bias in my count, I guess.

8 were "American," exclusive of "Black" or "Irish."

"All Others," an undifferentiated category, numbered 80.

I did not note which were "English" specifically, though that number was comparatively few. Moreover, many of these are forebitters that Hugill admitted into the collection on the criterium that he'd hear one person say they had been used as a capstan song. A contrary statement one could make is that they are all really "English," since it was Stan, an Englishman, who sang them!

Take those numbers with several teaspoons of salt.

Gibb

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:17 PM

I'm going to try to make a few notes on some of the chanteys that have been mentioned.

I don't think many of the Caribbean chanteys that appear in Abrahams' book (to the extent that he also made recordings of them), or that we find reintroduced by the Nevisian whalers or in Lomax's recordings represent a broken link in oral tradition -- precisely because we have these as aural sources directly from an oral source. Many of them are indeed less known (though note the fact that, for example, that Lomax's recordings in the Bahamas, mentioned by Fred above, were drawn from by early folk revival groups). While they are less known, we have a chance of knowing them directly from an oral source.

That not only Hugill, who by happenstance got many chanteys from Black chanteymen in the Caribbean, but also Sharp, Terry, etc. collected some of the same chanteys (by name, at least) from Englishmen suggests that these were a stock of chanteys that were widely known among the international set of sailors. This may be a bit different than localized chanteys like "Feeney Brown" and such. It's the former set that I think is "extinct" or "endangered," despite us having them in print.

Then there is the category of really "lost" chanteys that we don't have much knowledge about because they have only been named in books, without many lyrics and without melody. greg stephens brought up the example of one of these that seems to have been rediscovered. Here is his thread on that topic. "Fire Maringo" would be another that could fit into that category. The issue with these is that, unless and until they are rediscovered, they remain as vague references. By contrast, the many less-known chanteys in Hugill et.al. are at least notated out.

So adding some of the chanteys that have been mentioned…

*************
"Coal Black Rose"
Print: Hugill
Performers: Tom Sullivan (recorded on "Salt Atlantic Chanteys); Finn & Haddie (here)

Notes:
Learned by Stan Hugill from Harding. It is another one of those chanteys which can be presumed to be developed from a snatch of a popular minstrel song. In this case, the song "Coal Black Rose" is believed to be one of the earliest minstrel songs, popularized by George Washington Dixon by 1829 and henceforth part of the standard repertoire of blackface performers. A copy of the sheet music to the song can be seen here

The opening phrases, especially about the banjo, with the onomatopoeia (as well as some of the melodic contour, I think) are similar enough to make it probable the chantey is partly derived from the popular song.

*******
"Come Down, You Bunch of Roses"

Print: Hugill, in several books; Doerflinger
Performers: hmm…very many, but few. See below

Notes:
Despite it being apparently very well known, I think this one belongs to this category of broken-oral-link chanteys. Doerflinger's printed version comes from another text. Hugill's come from the oral source, Harding, but so far as I know he hasn't passed that version on orally to others. In fact, he appears to later forsake Harding's version (in SEVEN SEAS) in favor of a popular revival version.

I've tried to analyze what I think is the trajectory of this chantey, since the end of sail, here. The gist of my argument is that Bert Lloyd refashioned the song, from who knows what, and that his version became so ubiquitous that even Hugill adopted it.

Now, we do have those Caribbean recordings of a sibling or parent version of the song, as noted by Fred and Barry. So there is an oral source. One question would be whether these are the same as the developed chantey.

I've made an attempt to recreate Hugill's original/Harding's version here

********
"Bully in the Alley"

Note that this is different than the "Shinbone Al" mentioned earlier in the thread.

At first glance, one might not include this one among the "broken link" chanteys of this thread, simply because Hugill recorded it. It is available to many, and many have learned it. In fact, it is so well known (in a form) that it has reached the level of Disney-fication, here and here

However, two points. One is that Hugill's notation of this chantey in SEVEN SEAS is significantly different from the popular versions. I don't have his recording, so I can't tell if the popular versions are based on that (which differs from text) or if they derive from someone's reworking of it. Second, see TomB's points, above, that John Short's rendition had some significant differences. So there is a case for saying that the oral tradition of this chantey has been broken, or at least that the way most people know it now is "off." Who popularized the current version going around (was it Starboard List, as Lighter mentions)?

Regardless, it is similar to a lot of these other chanteys.

*****
"Lowlands Low"

Print: Hugill
Performers: Ian Cambell; Mystic Seaport Chanteymen; Roll & Go

Revived in the 60s by Ian Campbell and Co.? This is post-SEVEN SEAS, but I don't know if he learned it from print or oral.
Incidentally, there are a number of recordings, by revival singers in the 60s-70s, that are recreated from text. Often they have "mistakes" in them, imperfect readings of the texts, and through their spread on record they've spread these off versions. An example might be Louis Killen's version of "Hilo Johnny Brown" which seems it must derive from Hugill but has too many inaccuracies. It may well be that he learned it from Hugill directly, in which case – sadly all too often the case—it's Hugill's notation that is way off.

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 07:12 PM

You'll find a field recording of "Come Down You Bunch of Roses" on the Bahama 1935 recording, collected by Lomax, sung high harmony by Henry Lundy & bassed by David "Pappie" Pryor, Nassau, 1935.
Aside from the Bahama collection there's also, I'm sure many home recordings of the Barouallie Whalermen from there appearance at Mystic some yrs ago & a few who had lerded a few songs from them, themselves. There are alo a few who have copies of Roger's field recordings & have learned from them.

There was an old thread on the "possible" origins of "Coal Black Rose". The version that Neil sings on 'Fathom This' is close to what Tommy Sullivan sings, you'll note on Tommy LP that Neil is singing on that LP with Tommy & a few others

You might want to check up on the recording of the "Georgia Sea Island Singers", the Northern Nech Chanteymen & the Manhade Chanteymen for overlapping songs.

Melville & Frances Herskovits collected & recorded 352 songs on the island of Trinidad (not Lomax as I mistakenly metioned above) of wwhich only 34 cuts appear on "Peter Was A Fisherman". Thius was intended to be Vol 1 of an intended series, I don't know if there is more of this collection available.

Mudcatter Richard Adrianowicz & Peter Kasin have a few recordings with some very worth while souther island songs not commonly heard & done very well also

"American Shanties" by Mystic's Forebitter is another worth while CD in the same vein that you could mine


Nice, interesting thread, I'm off for a shanty session. Can't stay.

Gibb, Mystic's fest is not far off, get a good long playing recorder & come, you'll be tickled to death at what you'll find floating about.

Barry

Subject: Lyr Add: BULLY IN THE ALLEY
From: doc.tom
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:05 AM

Re 'Bully In The Alley', The notes currently drafted to go with the new recordings of John Short's versions of the shanties read: -
"BULLY IN THE ALLEY (mss.2936) crops up only from Short via Sharp ("I have no variants of this nor do I know of any printed version of it") – except for one other version that Hugill 'picked up in the West Indies'. Judging by extant recordings and the internet, all revival versions seem to have the same structure, and stem from Hugill. Hugill's version gives Shinbone Al as a location in his text, and Shinbone Alley in is St. George's, Bermuda. There also appears to be a consensus opinion that 'bully' in the context of this shanty, means drunk and incapable. Short's version gives no location and no indication of drunkenness. The fragments of Short's text are more reminiscent of Sally In Our Alley (the composition by Henry Carey published in 1726, which became very popular in the U.S. in the nineteenth century, not the Gracie Fields 1931 song) than of Bermudan alchoholism – but either 'explanation' of the shanty is probably grasping at straws and ultimately pointless. Hugill comments, on the version published by Sharp, that "I feel that this version has all the signs of being in a worn condition, as though Mr. Short's memory, in this case, didn't serve him well." It is certainly a difficult mss to get inside. Sharp does not always mark his mss with 'solo' or 'chorus', nor does he usually mark the stresses – the conclusion must be that when he does so (as he does throughout this shanty) - it is because he has specifically checked it with Short for whatever reason. Sharp's solo/chorus markings and stresses initially did not seem logical – however, the way it seems to work, actually as Sharp recorded/published it, is this:

1) Single solo line with 'Way – ay bully in the alley' chorus all sung twice.
2) The soloist then has a short line followed by a chorus of the 1st line with Way-ay etc.
3) This is followed by another short solo finished by a Way-ay etc. chorus.
4) All stresses are marked on the 'all' of 'alley' – not on other barlines!
5) It also seems likely that the Way-ay tune variations are just that and not fixed in the structure.

This structure is much more a Hoosier's form than the later Hugill form and may therefore endorse Hugill's opinion that the shanty derived from the cotton ports.

SOLO        So help me Bob I'm bully in the alley
CHORUS        Way – ay bully in the alley
SOLO        So help me Bob I'm bully in the alley
CHORUS        Way – ay bully in the alley
        
SOLO        Bully down in an alley
CHORUS        So help me Bob I'm bully in the alley
       Way – ay bully in the alley
SOLO        Bully in Tin Pot Alley
CHORUS        Way – ay bully in the alley

ENDS"

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 09:18 AM

Surely a more conventional sense of "bully" applies here: "[It's] splendid here in the alley" or perhaps "[There's a - or I'm the] bulley in the alley."

Subject: RE: Rare' Carib. shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 02:59 PM

Barry,

I do plan to be in Mystic, with note pad in hand (well, probably a grimey piece of paper in pocket), and ready to sit at the feet of the masters (or stand in the dark corner behind them)!


Tom,
Thanks for those notes. They will be helpful to anyone wanting to perform "Bully in the Alley." So you say there is indeed a recording of John Short singing this one that will be released soon? In a way, that would help re-fuse the oral link. Very exciting.
If other "endangered" shanties here are also among the forthcoming CD, please do let us know.

****
A non sequitur: I've heard it claimed that English "bully" as something good derives from the British India contact (as many English slang words did). The commonly used Punjabi word /balle/, meaning basically "Bravo!" is cited as the source. (The /a/ in that word is pronounced as a schwa vowel). I doubt it, but it's an interesting anecdote.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 03:18 PM

O.K. – so here goes: I give only the shanties that Sharp/Terry printed of Short's which were NOT given by TOZER, L.A.SMITH, WHALL, BULLEN, FOX-SMITH, COLCORD, or KINSEY, except as shown. Bear in mind that Sharp published in 1914, and Terry vol.2 (the one that included Short's shanties) in 1924. (Vol.1 was published in 1921, before he had met Short).

Billy Riley. mss.3059 SHARP 58: I have no variants of this and I know of no other published version. TERRY2 (26) Sung to me by Mr. Short. I have not found any other sailor who knows it. FOX-SMITH p.52. I have come across very few of the younger generation of sailormen who have heard it. This version sung in 1850s. HUGILL remarkable resemblance between Billy Riley and Tiddy High O! Billy Riley probably started life as a cotton-hoosiers song.

Carry Him To The Burying Ground. mss.2903 SHARP 33: GENERAL TAYLOR: I know of no other printed versions of this chantey, nor have I heard it sung by anybody else. The grace notes in the chorus are very remarkable and were beautifully sung by Mr. Short. TERRY2 (30) I have heard no one sing this save Mr. Short. The tune differs at several points (notably bars 6 & 7, page 59) from C.J. Sharp's printed version taken down from Mr. Short. But I have set it down exactly as he sang it to me. HUGILL [this] comes from the same [gulf port or West Indian] part of the world and in all probability has stemmed from a slave song. As a cotton stowers chant, but to fit the words the tune must have been slightly different from the one I give [gives close variant – from Harding the Barbarian]. Several negro songs exist which point to its origin – [examples]

Do Let Me Go (Yaller Girls). mss.2958 SHARP 8: I have not heard this chantey from any one but Mr. Short, nor, so far as I know, is it printed elsewhere. The tune is in the mixolydian mode. Mr. Short always sang "doodle let me go." TERRY2 (14) This was also sung to me by Mr. Short. As he only had one verse of words, I have perpetrated the remaining two. HUGILL p.380 A capstan shanty which may be related to the foregoing [Do Let Me Lone Susan] is Do Let me Go, given also by Terry & Sharp. Gives version from Harding the Barbadian. NB: Short's text is actually the folk-song Blow the Candles Out.

Good Morning Ladies All. mss.2904. SHARP 17: I know of no variant of this chantey. The tune has some affinity with "Heave away my Johnny" (No. 26). TERRY1 (18). [NOT Short's version] HUGILL p.349-351. I feel certain that I am right in saying that any shanty including ['Good Morning Ladies All'] can be said to be of negro origin. Quotes minstrel songbook song. [version 1] Capstan shanty and Sharp, who also gives it, believes it to have some affinity with Heave Away, Me Johnnies. [version 2] also given by Terry – is a different structure.

He Back, She Back (Old Moke Pickin' On a Banjo). mss.2960. SHARP 4. The tune, which is in the dorian mode, is, as Miss Gilchrist has pointed out to me, a variant of Shule Agra. "Hoo-roo" may be a reminiscence of "Shule Agra," and the reference to "the railroad" a memory of "Poor Paddy works on the railway." Both words and tune show negro influence. The chantey is not included in any other collection. HUGILL Many new work songs were originated by the Negro and Irish work-gangs who laboured on the Iron Road. Some of these songs eventually arrived at sea and [this] was certainly one of them. Apart from myself, Sharp is the only collector who gives it. Capstan. The too-ler-oo of the chorus indicates an Irish connection, giving it a typical Irish-Negro combination found in many shanties of the forties.

Liza Lee (Yankee John Stormalong). mss.2956. BULLEN 27. Halliard. …no particular mention… SHARP 36: The only variant of this that I know of is printed by Bullen (No. 27). TERRY2 (28) Sung to me by Mr. Short. It is a better version than those sung by Sir Walter Runciman and others. I have given Mr. Short's version. COLCORD p.60. From English Folk Shanties, by permission of Cecil Sharp. HUGILL p.80. For the last of the Stormalong family we have: [this] – no source given, but not Short's tune.

Lucy Long, mss.2998. SHARP 22: I know of no other printed version of this chantey. The chorus is curiously disjointed in its rhythm.   TERRY2 (13) This was sung to me by Mr. Short. I have never heard it from anyone else. HUGILL p.396. Terry & Sharp give versions, both similar to mine which I picked up in Trinidad in 1931.

        Round The Corner Sally. mss.2961 SHARP 42: I do not know of any printed version of this chantey, nor have I myself collected any variants. TERRY2 (22) I have not heard anyone save Mr. Short sing this shanty. COLCORD (45) Mentions Dana. Short-drag shanty. HUGILL (389) Mentioned by Dana in Two Years Before the Mast. The phrase 'round the corner Sallies' is often found in nigger minstrelsy and means anything from a female 'corner boy' to a fully-fledged prostitute. Terry & Sharp are the only two collectors who give it {NB: Colcord!} and both had it from the same shantyman, Mr. Short… My version is one of Harding's.
        
Rowler Bowler. mss.2935. SHARP 12: I have no variants of this chantey and I know of no other printed version of it. HUGILL p.347. Capstan song. Another of the Negro-Irish type of sailor work-song. Sharp's version, the only one in print until now, seems to be a Liverpool shanty. It was definitely sung aboard West Indian Sugar and Rum Traders.
        
Tommy's Gone (Tommy's Gone Away). mss.2929. SHARP 60: This may be a variant of the preceding number (Tom's Gone To Ilo), though the same singer sang them both. I cannot trace it anywhere else. Mr. Short said that this was used not only as a pulling chantey but also when they were screwing cotton into the hold at New Orleans.   TERRY2 (24) This is a variant of the sentiment of 'Tom's gone to Hilo (see Pt.1) but the tune is different and not so good. The version is that of Mr. Short. HUGILL Variant of Tom's Gone to Hilo. Apart from (me) only given by Terry. My version from S. Wales seaman who had served in the copper trade.
        
Would You Go My Way. mss.3058. SHARP 56: This is not, I believe, published elsewhere, nor have I collected any variants. TERRY2 (19) This charming shanty was sung to me by Mr. Short. I have not met any other sailor that knows it. A version (differing from the present one in the music of bar 9, and the words of verses 5 & 6) is given in C.J. Sharp's collection, taken down from Mr. Short's singing, also. Mr. Short may have exercised the shantyman's privilege of varying melody or words at will. At any rate, I have set both down as he sang them to me. HUGILL [this] I picked up in the West Indies. This was a common hauling song among coloured seamen and was even a favourite with white sailors. Terry and Sharp both give a version much the same as mine. The pull came on the word 'go' in both refrains.
        
So of these 11 shanties, Hugill gives his versions coming from: Harding = 3, West Indies = 1, Trinidad = 1, Unspecified, but Negro = 4, No source given = 1 - and one from the Bristol channel – which is corroborated by Barry Island versions in Carpenter (may be a localised – Copper trade - version).

One other thing, Gibb, if anyone want to do the Short structure of Bully In The Alley, beware - it's a different tune!

TomB

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 03:21 PM

Oooops! - missed Bully In The Alley off the list after all that - so that makes twelve, and one more 'picked up in the West Indies'.

TomB

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 04:50 PM

I'm reading this thread with a great deal of interest. I've nothing to add to the information being gathered about shanties, since I just starting learning about that genre of music from reading Mudcat threads. However, I have a request as an African American whose maternal grandparents were from Barbados and Trinidad/Tobabo-not that where my grandparents were from is really significant to the point that I'd like to make, besides the possibility that Harding the Barbadian and other singers way back then could have been relatives of mine :o).

I recognize that at the time that Hugill and others were collecting songs that it was standard practice among some populations to spell "negro" with a small "n". But times have changed and referents for this population have changed (a number of times). Though it grates my nerves to see the "n" not capitalized in those sources that you are quoting, I understand that you are quoting. I just hope that in new recordings and articles that retired referent "Negro" isn't used to refer to contemporary Black people (and if you are quoting old sources could "negro" be put in quotations marks to note that you are aware that this is an archaic spelling and that spelling that word with a small "n" had and still has negative connotations?). Perhaps putting that word in quotations can't be done but at least I hope that referent isn't used for contemporary writing about this population-my people-nowadays.

Among a number of African Americans, when "negro" is spelled with a small "n" in contemporary writing, that spelling for "Negro" implies three things
1. that the person is either set in his/her way and not aware that the group referent for this population has changed

2. that the person is either not aware or does not care that using a small letter for the first letter of that group referent when other referents such as Irish, Japanese, British, Spanish, Russian are capitalized implies that people referred to as "negroes" are considered to be less than other people in the world

3.that the writer is purposely using that referent as a pejorative term for someone Black who is an "Uncle Tom", that is to say, someone who is either overly submissive to White people or purposely acts in ways that are counterproductive to the best interests of other Black people

As Gibb has used that referent in his 31 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM post to this thread, Black" is an acceptable informal referent for those people who were formerly called "Negroes". When used as a racial referent "Black" can either be either capitalized or
un-capitalized. "Black" is the informal referent and "African American" is the formal referent for the same people, though in the USA "Black people" includes more people of African descent than "African American" does.

Again, thanks for an interesting thread. I have no intention of hijacking this thread and hope that this post will not engender discussion about these points on this thread. However, I wanted to take this opportunity to share these points because there may be people who find this thread through an Internet search engine who are interested in the subject of shanties, who see the term "negro" being used, and who aren't sure which racial referent/s are acceptable to use for Black Americans.

And that said, I'm going back to lurking and reading this thread as a means of learning more about this genre of music.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:57 PM

'Lowlands Low," mentioned above, was also recorded by Bernie Klay on the a 1980 album of songs from the Newport Chantey Festival. Stan Hugill was on the scene then, but it is unclear whether he had any influence on the rendition. The chantey is labeled as "The Island Lass."

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 09:26 PM

For reference purposes, here's a (necessarily rough) list I've made of the shanties recorded by Stan Hugill. I am sure there are a few more, here and there. More importantly, individuals will have personal recordings of his performances from concerts and private gatherings. Additions and corrections are welcome.

My idea in posting this list is to use it for cross-referencing. If there is an available recorded performance by Hugill, assuming he learned all these from an oral source, then we can't say that the oral link to any of the shanties is necessarily broken. There are a few, however, that it seems are very poorly known. These recordings of Stan's are not all widely available, and not all of them are popular, so it's still interesting to see what their trajectories have been.

The list has 78 songs -- shanties and forebitters. 55 were published in SEVEN SEAS. So, 55 out of some 181 shanties in that text (by my earlier count). That's a lot of leftover.

In SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS (1961)
The Anglesy
The Arabella
The Black Ball Line
Blow The Man Down
Bosun's Alphabet
Bulley in the Alley
Clear Away the Track (Eliza Lee)
The Companayro
Dixie Land (Way Down in Dixie)
Drunken Sailor
The Ebenezer
Essequibo River
Fire Down Below
The Fireship
The Flash Packet
The Gals Of Chile
The Girls of Dublin Town
Golden Vanitee ("The Lowlands Low")
Good Bye Fare Ye Well
Haul Away Boys
Heave Away Me Johnnies (We're All Bound to Go)
Heave Away Boys, Heave Away (which one?)
Hieland Laddie
Hilo Come Down Below
Jack all Alone
John Cherokee
John Kanaka
The Kangaroo
Larry Marr ("Virginia Lowlands")
Leave Her, Johnny Leave Her
Let the Bulgine Run
The Lime Juice Ship
Liverpool Judies
Liverpool Packet
A Long Time Ago
Lowlands ("lowlands away, me john")
New York Girls (Can't Ye Dance the Polka)
Old Moke Pickin' On The Banjo
Old Swansea Town Once More
Paddy Lay Back
Randy Dandy O
Ranzo Ray (which one?)
Ratcliffe Highway
Rio Grande
Roll Boys Roll
Roll the Old Chariot
Round The Bay Of Mexico
Sacramento
Santiana
Serafina
Shenandoah
South Australia
Stormalong ("ai-ai-ai Mister Stormalong" version?)
Whaling Johnny
Where Am I to Go, Me Johnnies

Added, in SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS (1969)
Admiral Benbow
Bounty Was A Packet Ship
Strike the Bell

Added, in SONGS OF THE SEA (1977)
Eight Bells
Rolling Down to Old Maui

Others, which I haven't noticed in his print works:
The Balaena
Boston Town Ho
The Leaky Ship
The Pilots of Tiger Bay
Pull Down Below
Running Down To Cuba
Sam's Gone Away (in Beck 1973)
Shiny-O

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 11:26 PM

Thanks to doc.tom for the cross-referencing of John Short's shanties.

Here's more survey and stats. This time regarding Hugill's Caribbean sources. Note: these do not correspond to all of his shanties that he believed were of Caribbean origin. Rather, they're those that he learned from men in or of the Caribbean.

There are 55 in total, at my count -- I may have missed some. So, a good third of the shanties in Hugill's text came from theses guys

From HARDING 'THE BARBARIAN' OF BARBADOS - 36 shanties:
Stormalong, John
'Way Stormalong John
Stormalong, Lads, Stormy
Sally Brown
Randy Dandy O!
High O, Come Roll Me Over
Where Am I to Go, M'Johnnies
Roll, Boys, Roll
The Codfish Shanty
Ranzo Ray (C)
Hilo, Come Down Below
Hello Somebody
Shallow Brown (B)
Can't Ye Hilo?
The Gal with the Blue Dress
Johnny Come Down the Backstay
Rise Me Up from Down Below
John Kanaka
Hooker John
Haul 'er Away (A)
Old Moke Pickin' on the Banjo
Gimme De Banjo
Haul Away, Boys, Haul Away
Walkalong, My Rosie
Coal Black Rose
Bunch o' Roses
'Way Me Susiana
Do Let Me Lone, Susan
Doodle Let Me Go
Sing Sally O (Mudder Dinah) (A)
Sing Sally O (B)
Round the Corner, Sally
Essequibo River
Alabama (John Cherokee)
Dan Dan
Hilonday

From "OLD SMITH" OF TOBAGO:
Lowlands Low
Walkalong You Sally Brown
Hilo Boys Hilo
Good Morning Ladies All (A)
Sing a Song, Blow Along (Dixie Land)
Tiddy High O

From HARRY LAUDER of ST. LUCIA:
Heave Away Boys, Heave Away (B)
Sister Susan (Shinbone Al)
Eki Dumah
Bulley In the Alley

From TRINIDAD, anonymous:
Roller Bowler
Miss Lucy Long
Miss Lucy Loo

From ST. LUCIA, anonymous:
Heave Away Boys, Heave Away (A)

WEST INDIES in general, anonymous:
Roll the Woodpile Down
Tommy's on the Tops'l yard
Haul 'er Away (B)
Good Morning Ladies All (B)
Won't Ye Go My Way?


If Hugill was writing his book in today's era of scholarship, Harding might be listed as a co-author!

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 12:26 AM

Anthologie des chansons de mer, vol. 3, "Chants des Marins Anglais," Chasse-maree. Stan Hugill, with Stormalong John.
I do not have this cd. Monique may be able to help.
It includes John Kanaka and Lowlands Away.

A disc included in Michel Colleu and Nathali Couilloud, "Chants de Marins," no date, Chasse-maree.
Track 7- John Kanaka, Hugill with Stormalong John
Track 9- Jean-Francois de Nantes, Hugill with John Wright
Track 25- The Black Ball Line, Hugill with Stormalong John group.
------------------
Digression-
African, 20th c. "La Complainte du Krouman." In the above volume, with musical score.

Probable Af-Am influence, "Roll the Old Chariot Along," Lyrics in English and French with musical score; not the lyrics in Hugill, Shanties from the Seven Seas. Cahiers de chants de marins, No. 2, p. 19.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: JeffB
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:40 AM

Quick BTW. As for meanings of "bully", the Dictionary of Historical Slang has several definitions which could apply :-

1] A protector and exploiter of prostitutes, from c. 1690; colloquial until 1750, then Standard English.
2] Companion, mate, from c. 1820. Nautical and dialect.
3] adj. First-rate, splendid: Canada, Australia, New Zealand from c. 1860, ex US. From the late 17-18th century Standard English "bully" - worthy, admirable. Applied only to persons.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:59 AM

Gibb; in reference to your post of 01 Apr 09 - 02:59 PM, there are some in this community, several of which attend Mystic, that consider Barry to be one of the Masters.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 09:02 AM

Gibb-

You're really doing a great job of summarizing these shanties and their sources. And you're also provoking some excellent comments and discussion.

I note that the "minstrel" origin of some of these shanties has been discussed in depth in other threads, i. e., "Coal Black Rose." Sometimes only a few key phrases survive from the original minstrel song, i.e. "Lucy Long." Sometimes it's just the title as in "Whoop Jamboree." But minstrel songs were the pop music of the day and thus fodder for the aspiring shantyman. The same is true of shanties whose origin can be traced to British and American Music Hall songs, i.e., "The Jolly Roving Tar (Get Up, Jack, John, Sit Down)"."

I'll look forward to meeting you at Mystic.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 01:27 PM

Marc,

Gibb; in reference to your post of 01 Apr 09 - 02:59 PM, there are some in this community, several of which attend Mystic, that consider Barry to be one of the Masters.

Hence my comment!

Charley,

I'd seen your post on another thread about getting together a list of chanteys with minstrel song sources. It would be great to continue that list. I think your "just a few key phrases" idea is not only very accurate, but even can be extended from "sometimes" to "most of the time," as so far I don't recall finding that many chanteys (except "Sacramento" for example) come close enough to any known minstrel song to really consider them variants of the same.

See you,
Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 02:18 PM

Thanks Marc for that way too generous complement.

On another line of sourcing orgins that IMO has been far to neglected is shanties that were born out of slavery & prisons or shaties that have gone from the sea into the prisons. I haven't found many that cross but there are a few.
One being "Drinking That Wine" most recently brought to the forefront by those singing it in the Manhaden Fisheries. But it's also foound in the Prison. It's been recorded & collected by Bruce Jackson in his Wake Up Dead Man" as a 'logging' song (axe) & a flatweeding song (hoe) & earlier by Lydia Parrish in her 'Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands' collection. She 1st heard it sung by a prison road gang cutting weeds (which was usually done to the work of a hoe). Odum & Johnson published a text as early as 1925. "Hard Times In Old Virginia" (recorded on my "Fathom This" & on Kasin & Adrianowicz's "Boldly From The Westward") is one that has it origins in slavery. Again, in Lydia Parrish's collection. Also on both those CD's is "Good-Bye, My Lover, Good-Bye". Again found in the prison repertoire of Louis "Bacon & Porkchop" Houston & Jesse "GI Jazz" Hendricks & recorded by Jackson as a cotton song in 1964. "Good-Bye My Riley-O" (again on 'Fathom This' is another whose orgins are in slavery. This is again found in Lydia Parrish's collection. Frankie Quimby told me that "Riley" was the nickname of a slave driver who was well liked & therefore his real name could not be mentioned & would be missed when gone.

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 02:39 PM

"Shanties of a more indeterminate Black American origin" might include the ones in Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands by Lydia Parrish, published originally in 1942. This includes fragments of familiar songs like "blow my bully boys, blow" and "clear the track and let the bullgine back", and less familiar ones such as "O bring me a gator, O gal when you come off the island..." A very local shanty is mentioned, but not transcribed, called "Yonder Come that Hessie".

The songs were collected from 1909 - 1934, largely on St Simon's Island amongst people we would now recognise as Gullahs. Her main sources for information on the songs were Joe Armstrong and Henry Merchant, both of whom were onetime leaders of stevedore crews.

Fully transcribed shanties:

Call Me Hangin' Johnny
Knock a Man Down
Sandy Anna
Debt I Owe
Ragged Leevy
Goodbye my Riley-o
Ole Tar River
Shilo Brown
This Time Another Year
Haul Away, Im a Rolling King (Bound for South Australia)
Sundown Below
My Soul Be at Rest
Anniebelle

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 02:43 PM

A number of those mentioned above by Ruth can be found on recordings by the Georgia Sea Island Singers

Barry

Subject: Lyr Add: PAY ME MY MONEY DOWN
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:36 PM

Adding to post by Ruth Archer, one she missed (I'm sure accidentally) is the chantey, "Pay Me My Money Down." It works well as a chantey, and also was collected from ex-stevedores.
Chorus and first two verses:

Pay me, Oh pay me
-Pay me my money down
Pay me or go to jail
-Pay me my money down.

Oh pay me, Oh pay me
-Pay me my money down
Pay me or go to jail
-Pay me my money down.

Think I heard my captain say
-Pay me my money down
T'morrow is my sailin' day
-Pay me my money down.

No. 50, With musical score, pp. 208-209, 1992 reprint of 1942 original, Univ. Georgia Press.

St. Simons Island and coastal vicinity long had a mixture of free and slave. Some slave-owners contracted with ship owners to provide labor aboard their ships; both slave and free were seamen on some vessels.
I would guess that the songs collected from the ex-stevedores are mostly post-slavery.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 09:01 PM

Thanks for the excellent info, Barry & Ruth. Dunno why I don't have Parrish's book yet, but it's definitely on my wish list for when I get some extra cash!

***************

Logging in another of the "broken link" chanteys in print...

"Miss Lucy Long"

Print: Hugill; Sharp; Terry (pt2)
Performers: ???

Notes:

See also doc.tom's notes, above.

Although "Miss Lucy Long" was one of the more famous minstrel songs, this capstan chantey does not appear to be directly related to it. More likely, as "Miss Lucy Long" became a steroetypical figure in minstrelsy, the name of that character found its way into this chantey. In addition to Hugill, Sharp and Terry collected versions of it, both from John Short. Hugill "picked this up" in Trinidad in 1931. The melody in these versions is very similar, remarkably. The one major difference, in part of the chorus (I have incorporated the alternate notes as a harmony part in my rendition).

The opening line uses the common chantey formula of "Was you ever down in XplaceX?" which may link it to other "hoosier" songs like "Hieland Laddie," "Mobile Bay," etc.

I think it's notable that the three verses given by Sharp correspond to Hugill's first three verses. It seems unlikely that they would match up so well unless Hugill was culling from Sharp, then making up the rest of a "story" in his successive verses.    This brings up something I've wondered: whether Hugill didn't, at time, and especially with these rare chanteys that he's not known to have performed [much], just kind of piece them together from earlier texts and imperfect memory of hearing them.

My try at it is here

Who else is performing this? Tom - are you performing this for the John Short CD, or does the CD consist of Yankee Jack's recordings by Sharp in archives??? I wasn't clear on that, thanks

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 11:45 PM

"Stormalong, Lads, Stormy"

Print: Hugill; Sharp ("Wo Stormalong")
Performers: ???

Notes:
Though there are indeed many variants on the "Stormalong" theme, this one can easily be consider distinct. It's one of the few in Sharp's EFC text that he did not collect from John Short; he got it from Robert Ellison of London. Hugill got it from Harding. Sharp's makes more "sense" to me, melodically. Hugill's, assuming it is accurate, has an interesting 2-tonal-center quality to it.

I've not yet heard any renditions of this, so my own, meant to illustrate Hugill's text, is based only on it and my imagination. recording

Please do offer the names of any other recordings/performers of this one, and their source for learning if possible.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:36 AM

Way Storm Along John - Forebitter - American Sea Shanties
Yankee John, Stormalong - Kasin & Adrianowicz-Bodly From the Westward
Mister Stormalong-Bob Roberts-Sea Songs & Shanties (on Saydisc)
Stormalong - Jim Mageean & Johnny Collins - Coming Of Age

The verizon above by Kasin & Adrianowicz, Yankee John, Stormalong is pretty much the same West Indian version that Roger Abrahams gives in his "Deep The Water, Shallow the Shore". I don't recall that one being on his field recordings though, when I ever find them again I'll check.

I think there some mention of these aboive so,,,
Gwine To Get A Home - Forebitter - American Sea Shanties
Gonna Get Home By' n By' -Kasin & Adrianowicz-Bodly From The Westard

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:49 AM

"Sandy Anna" can be found in Lydia Parrish's "Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands"

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:53 AM

"John Come Tell Us", I believe I can hear Mac Bernier singing this

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:08 AM

"Folklore & the Sea" by Horace Beck was mentioned above, another source for

Yado
Sam Gone Away
Ring Down Below
Ding Well
Mountains So High
Drive Her Captain
Stormalong (Yankee John would you Stormalong)
Bully Long Time Ago
Blow, Boys, Blow
Bulldog (don't Bite Me)
Man-o'-War Sailor
Hilo Rosabella
Old Moses
Pappy You Done Dead


Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:12 AM

For what it's worth, the draft notes on Lucy Long read:

LUCY LONG (2998)        
Sharp: 'I know of no other version.' Terry: 'I have never heard it from anyone else.' Hugill: 'picked up in Trinidad in 1931.' Hugill criticises Sharp for writing 'wring' instead of 'ring' and says the word is a substitute anyway. I suspect it's actually a euphemism and that 'ring' or 'wring' (it makes no difference) was actually sung. Sharp did not publish the 'wrung her all night' verse (of course) – and Stan did not work from the mss. – only the publication!

The verses collected (as opposed to published) were:-


Was you ever on the Brum-a-low
Where the yankee boys are all the go
To my way-ay-ay ha ha
Me Johnny boys ha ha
Why don't you try for to wring Miss Lucy Long

As I walked out one morning fair
To view the views & take the air

There I met Miss Lucy fair
                           I do declare

Miss Lucy had a baby
She dressed it all in green

I wrung her all night and I wrung her all day
And I wrung her before she went away

In answer to Gibb's query - the recordings of John Short's shanties will all be new - Short was never sound recorded and died in 1933. Therefore there isn't a 'live' continuity and I still feel a bit of a fraud posting to this thread when that's what it's about - sorry! On the other hand, it occurs to me that when we put Short's 'Rosabella' into currency through Collins & Mageean, look what happened to it - I wish we could now trace it's passage round the shanty crews since 1978. Guess it moved around rather as the original shanties did singer to singer - but with less variation!

TomB

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:57 AM

TomB-

I'm been wondering where "Rosabella" came from. I believe we got it from the singing of Johnny Collins but had no clue to its origins.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:20 AM

I first heard Rosabella from Stan.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:07 PM

Well, there's interesting! If Stan was singing it, he must've got it from Johnny & Jim as well. He didn't publish it - nor did Sharp - it was just sitting in the Sharp mss. till we found it in '79. (It is distinct enough to the Carpenter sets - although they are related - to be sure that Short was the only source for the Rosabella 'everybody' sings. The Beck 'Rosabella' is different again).

TomB