'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: JWB
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:43 PM

Gibb,

My old memory cells don't hold as much data as they used to, particularly after a couple tots of gin, so I can't recall everything I did hear at Mystic last weekend. It's actually easier to list what I *didn't* hear, these being what I think of a "Rare Caribbean" chanteys, based purely on my personal experience of how infrequently I hear them sung at various events. That list includes "Sailboat Malarky", "Essiquibo River" (which was very popular 10-15 years back), "Bound Down Trinidad", "Shallow Brown" (maybe I went to bed too early),and "Running Down to Cuba."

I would love to trace the popularity of certain chanteys in the revival, to discover why some catch on so quickly and widely and then fade out (e.g. Essiquibo River), or stay present in the popular repertory (e.g. John Cherokee). Another thread, p'raps.

You get the pub-sing laurel, though, Gibb, for the free-style "Hilo, Boys, Hilo". If Stan himself had been there he would have been impressed (though he might have opined that your voice wasn't "strident" enough for a true chanteyman, 2 octaves too high or not). You did a great job with that one.

Jerry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:18 PM

Ah, interesting, Jerry. I suspect part of that reason has to do with individual singers who have led the charge with certain songs, then maybe backing off. More interesting would be the phenomenon where those songs become played-out. Like I said about "Drunken Sailor" --people in such an "elite" gathering would GROAN if you raise that one (though "Roll the Old Chariot" is basically the same song, and it was raised several times). Probably tons of other reasons.

There's also the sort of "Black 'n' soulful" niche of songs which, for some people at least I'm sure, amount to a sort of code-shift. It's not too hard to trace the individuals who are especially responsible for popularizing these great songs. But most of them (of the ones I'm talking about) are more recent additions (eg.post-Mehaden fishermen phenom)...whereas there is a mine of songs once coded as "Black" in the "old" repertoire that have yet to be revived in such a manner. I dunno really though, just casual observations and guesses.

Incidentally, Dave Iler of the Seaport sang "Shallow Brown" (a fast version) towardsthe end of the Thurs concert. I liked it -- his voice and way of singing it-- a lot.

Thanks, Jerry, for the compliment; it really means a lot to me. I'm really interested in developing a sort of chantey singing that treats the "tradition" as a format or shell (for example, like "the Blues form") rather than the "tradition" as specific texts that just happened to have been collected, written down, and set. Of course, this only applies to a certain portion of the chantey repertoire, and my viewpoint is an eccentric one.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:25 PM

I don't think I've logged this one in properly yet in this thread, so...

"Sister Susan" / "Shinbone Al"

Print:Hugill; Bullen; Harlow ("Gwine to Git a Home Bime By")
Performers: Theresa Tooley, Forebitter

Notes:

Discussed in this thread.. Summary and more, here.

Hugill learned it from "Harry Lauder" of St. Lucia.

In its "hauling" format (as Hugill has it), it actually has the form of ~three~ solo verses (each followed by a short refrain). Earlier in the SFSS, when discussing "John Kanaka," Hugill remarked that that song had this "not so common form." However, I have noted this is not so rare. "Mobile Bay," "Kanaka," "Essequibo River," "John Cherokee," and this one all share that feature.

Bullen first gives it in LOG OF A SEA-WAIF, 1899.    He observed a ship's cargo being discharged by stevedores in Demerara:

"Streaming with sweat, throwing their bodies about in sheer
wantonness of exuberant strength as they hoisted
the stuff out of the hold, they sometimes grew so
excited by the improvisations of the "chantey
man," who sat on the corner of the hatch solely
employed in leading the singing, that often, while
for a minute awaiting the next hoist, they would
fling themselves into fantastic contortions, keeping
time to the music. There was doubtless great
waste of energy; but there was no slackness of
work or need of a driver. Here is just one speci-
men of their songs; but no pen could do justice to the vigour, the intonation and the abandon of the
delivery thereof...."

He goes on to print one verse, with music. Bullen also gave the song in 1914's SONGS OF SEA LABOUR (*thanks to KathyW for the source).

Harlow also printed a version of this song, though under the title "Gwine to Get a Home Bime By." He called it a "'Badian hand-over-Hand" chantey, and it follows Bullen's version closely. Lighter (in the other thread) suggested he may possibly have lifted it from Bullen's text. Harlow's is different in having more verses and syncopation in some spots. There is enough difference I think to suggest that Harlow heard it first-hand, but it is also notable how similar the versions are.

So it has been ascribed to St. Lucia (in a way), Guyana, and Barbados. However, a minstrel song published in 1835 was called "Shinbone Alley" itself (in addition to others that might mention the place), and its first verse starts with the same structure as the chantey:

Old Miss Tuck and my aunt Sallie
Both lived down in Shinbone Alley

Forebitter recorded the song as "Gwine to Get a Home," circa 1991 (??). There's is based off of Harlow's text (a few small changes to the melody, some extra-syncopated bits, and a swing-feel read into it). I don't know on what basis they list it as a "windlass or pumping chantey" in their liner notes.   Interestingly, I suspect they had not referenced Hugill's version (filed under a different title) at the time of that recording, on the slimmest evidence -- the fact that they sing "by ME by" since Harlow spells it in dialect as "bime by" (it is clearly "by 'n' by," and Hugill's text would have made that obvious.)

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

Carpenter collected a couple of examples in 1929, but each source claims to have learned the song some 75 years earlier: i.e. in the early 1850s (which may possibly point to a minstrel origin).

First line - "I lost my jacket in the alley" from Edward Robinson, of Sunderland. Born 1834, to sea 1846. Carpenter's notes say Captain Page heard the chantey about 1853. (He collected from both Capt Mark Page and Capt Edward Robinson in the same retired sailor's home in Sunderland, which may explain the ambiguity of the note)

First Line - "O, I lost my coat in Story's Alley" from James Forman, of Leith, born 1844, first ship 1856. "Learned as a boy before going to sea" and a further note "Story's Alley in Leith".

I'm not at home at present, but at least one version (Forman?) is on Kennedy's selction of Carpenter recordings, and the chorus sounds very much like "I'm Billy in the army"

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:30 PM

Here's what I hear Forman singing in 1928:

                O-oh, I'm Billy in the alley!
                
        I lost my coat in Story's Alley.
                O-oh, I'm Billy in the alley!

        [I] put it in the [unintelligible: kelleekaim?] was my fancy.
                O-oh, I'm Billy in the alley!
        
        She put me out because I'd no money.
                O-oh, I'm Billy in the alley!

Story's Alley, it turns out, is in Leith, where Forman lived.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 06:33 PM

Great to see more sources for "Bully in the Alley."

***********

Logging more of these chanteys...

Title: "Heave Away, Boys, Heave Away" -- 2 DIFFERENT CHANTEYS

Print: Hugill
Performers: Hugill w/ Stormalong John; The Shanty Crew

Notes:
There are two different chanteys, though with these same words for the chorus. Hugill seems to have been the first and only to print them. He learned chantey "A" from a Black sailor from St. Vincent, and chantey "B" from Harry Lauder of St. Lucia.

One interesting point is that both are supposedly halyard chanteys, yet they use the word "heave." Hugill opined that this indicated they had been used for cotton screwing. (However, in another thread, where we were brainstorming about the action of cotton screwing, I got the idea it was a pulling action??)

Stan Hugill recorded a chantey by this title, with Stormalong John backing, on 1989's A SALTY FORE TOPMAN. I've not heard it. Can anyone who has tell which chantey it is, A or B? The Shanty Crew has done version B (I'd ~guess~ that Hugill's recording is of the same?)

I recorded trial examples of each of these.
Heave Away. Boys -- "A"
Heave Away. Boys -- "B"
It would be great to hear about other renditions and sources.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 07:34 PM

Back to "Bully in the Alley" for a sec --
I just heard the version recorded by The Shanty Crew, and wanted to note that it's the only one I've heard that uses the chorus melody ~printed~ in Hugill's book. However, they also follow the popular but inauthentic practice of using the first verse as a repeated sort of grand chorus throughout.

I don't think I've posted a link to my try to represent the Hugill text-version. (With respect to form and melody only, of course -- the arbitrariness of the text called for more made-up verses).   HERE it is.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM

We (Shanty Crew) recorded both versions - the (A) 'White Mans Dollars' on the 2nd recording "Stand To Yer Ground", and the (B) on 'Where Am I To Go'

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 12:08 PM

SPB, that is great to hear. So the (A) version, from what I can tell was released in 1989, and (B) in 1996.

Since the recordings aren't readily available in all parts -- though I do understand they have very extensive accompanying notes-- could you say a word about how you guys learned these? Were they based on Hugill's book (which I have had to do), or did you also have available a recording by Hugill, Hugill's own advice, or the performances by other shantymen? thanks

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 01:52 PM

I learned both versions long before we recorded throgh the painstaking process of a combination of sight reading and using whatever musical instrument came to hand. The words and tunes come from SFSS and the feedback we got from Stan was "that's close enough" - praise indeed.

The additional verses are mine and these were used to pad the song out a bit.

The likely orginal use of the shanties is with a device for cotton stowing which is best described as a back-to-front corkscrew (thus the term "cotton screwing"). What this did was to pack/compress the cotton bales into the hold, thus shipping more tons of cargo.

On less sturdy and less watertight vessels this could be dangerous as it was know for the cotton to expand on getting wet and split the vessels' seams.

Hope that helps...

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: DebC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 02:37 PM

What a fantastic thread!! This is what the Mudcat is all about and why I keep coming back. So much knowledge and so many wee tidbits of information here.

Keep going, folks.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM

Even on sturdy vessels cottn packed or compressed to tightly when wet or soggy expanding could cause structural damage

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM

For those interested in rare Caribbean shanties, Hugill etc, and would like to hear about a recording of the rather rare "Captain Go AShore" (and a lot of other sea stuff) try this thread. That will tell you about "Take Me Over the Tide", the Boat Band reissue CD.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 08:05 PM

SPB,
What a fascinating bit of detail. Thanks for that.

As for cotton screwing, I think we get the basics of the device as you said, but what I was still unsure of is whether the action itself was a "heaving" or "hauling" one. We discussed it a bit in THIS THREAD. I even found some diagrams, and a photo of a White cotton-screwing gang (alas, not at work).

***

Incidentally, while I think it's very possible that these couple chanteys were used for cotton screwing, I am more inclined to explain the "heave" wording by the fact that in local Caribbean shantying the word "heave" isn't used so literally. I guess I'd have to come up with examples to prove that now, but I don't remember any off-hand. I can, however, use this video as an example of my point. Watch from 1:46 The people are saying "heave," when technically they are hauling. It's a fairly common swap.

***

Debra,
Glad you found this. Please do be on the lookout (hear-out) for sightings/hearings of these lesser-known/performed songs :)

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 06:47 PM

Adding "Dan Dan" to this list, but by way of its own separate thred.

"Dan Dan" thread

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 11:43 PM

In the video the work is also called 'warping' where a line/rope would go round a bit (bollard) on the dock and the crew would 'heave' the vessel to the bit to create the forward momentum (similar to heaving a ship to an anchor). Hauling generally refers to when something in hauled up.

On later vessels, once they are rigged, this job can be done using a general-purpose capstan, and of course modern vessels use thrusters.....

A canal enthusiast friend once showed me warping marks on a canal bridge. These are from the days when canal barges were horse drawn and the tow path went up over the bridge and the bridge itself was used to provide leverage and over the years the tow-ropes cut into the stonework of the bridges.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM

Time to add another to the bunch. Ideas are especially appreciated, as I'm now trying to work on an interpretation of this one, thanks!

Title: "Hilonday"

Print: Hugill; LA Smith; Terry; Alden
Performers: ??!!

Notes:
Hugill had his version from Harding, who said it was for t'gallant halyards. But before him, LA Smith (1888) and Terry (in his "Part II") had given it. Smith said it was a windlass chanteyBoth Hugill and Smith's notations, while similar, have a certain irregularity about them. Hugill's makes more sense to me (for whatever it's worth!), but I suspect there was something about the way of singing this, either an overlap of solo and chorus parts or a special rubato or something that may have made it tricky to easily notate. Unfortunately, it may not be possible to know what that was. (I've ordered the Terry book, will have it soon but can't speak about it yet.) Turns out, WJ Alden (1882) also mentioned it ("hi-lon-day") in Harper's Monthly -- a place where it looks like Smith lifted a lot of info from. And James Masicon Carpenter included it in his diss. (1929) , in some form?

Hugill seems to suggest that "hilonday" might be read as "Highland Day," based on Smith, but actually Smith is saying she thought that another chantey, which she chose to render as "Highland Day," might as well have contained the mysterious phrase "hilonday." Just brainstorming... I wonder if indeed the phrase "Hieland Laddie" could have become a nonsense-y sort of phrase, considering that the chantey by that name was evidently popular (i.e. Nordhoff) among the cotton-screwing "chanty-men." There is of course also that mysterious word "hilo," to which this bears a resemblance.   Finally, a real stretch, but Smith's version of "Handy Me Boys" has a little resemblance, but only in a very broad sense-- you have to squint your eyes to see it!

The texts (Hugill and Smith, at least) use verses of "Boney."

So who performs this? what de we know about it?

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM

re-fresh

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: JWB
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:54 PM

Gibb,

I have to admit that in 30 years of listening to chanteys I can't recall ever hearing Hilonday. I must go look it up in Hugill. This is a rare bird, indeed.

Jerry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: KathyW
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 12:00 AM

A belated and (at this point) somewhat off-topic comment:

There is a scanned but not OCR'ed .pdf of The Clipper Ship "Sheila" by W.H. Angel available online, but alas it does not include music for any of the songs, just the lyrics. You've probably found that out already by now. Fascinating reading, though. (E.g. the writer explains that for the "crossing the line" ceremony, Neptune and his court marched along the deck singing "Ruben Ranzo." Lyrics for "Sally Brown" and "Stormalong" are given in the same chapter, implying to me that they were also sung as part of the festivities.) You can read the book online here: http://www.archive.org/stream/clippershipsheil00angeuoft#page/n7/mode/2up.

Also, more on topic, by chance it happens that I ordered a reprint of Terry's book (which includes the elusive Part II) from Amazon a few months ago. In case your copy has still not yet arrived, the notes for "Hilonday" are as follows:

I learned this in boyhood from the late Mr. James Runciman. I do not know in which ship he picked it up, but one of my earliest recollections is hearing him and W. E. Henley give tounge to it at the house of the latter (in the days when he lived at Shepherd's Bush-- then an outlying suburb). Henley's knowledge of the sea (like R. L. Stevenson's) was the acquired knowledge of the literary landsman, but shanties-- especially the grim ones-- had a special appeal for him, and he was fond of singing them. The sea song, 'Time for us to go', which he incorporated in the play of Admiral Guinea (calling it a 'chanty') I learnt from him in my boyhood, to a tune which I understood was his own composition. It is a good imitation of a capstan shanty, but I do not include it in this collection as it was never sung at sea; I hope one day to publish it separately.

The first half of the "solo" and the chorus in Terry's version is nearly the same as the version given in Hugill's book, but the tune is somewhat different.

Like Hugill's it is in 6/8 time, but the lyric in the second part of the "solo" for the first verse goes "Oh rise you up, my yeller gels" rather than "Rise me up my yeller, yeller gals" and Terry's tune is . . . ho boy, I'm not sure how to do this . . . here are the three relevant measures, I hope I'm transcribing this correctly in a way that maybe you can figure out:

A (quarter note) B (eighth note) C (quarter note) B (eighth note)
day.             Oh-             -                -

A (quarter note) G (eighth note) E (quarter note) D (eighth note)
rise             you             up,             my

middle C (quarter note) D (eighth note) E (quarter note) F (eighth note)
yel -                   ler             gels,             Ah

Then it goes back like the Hugill version.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM

Thanks, Kathy!! - for satisfying my curiosity a little bit on what Terry had. (yeah, I'm still waiting at the moment for my copy to come in from Amazon!) I think I could figure out your transcription fine.

Well, from what I can tell, the different versions don't look so different. Hmm...still trying to make a decision on the timing of it. And on how it might (or might not) be interpreted as something "Caribbean." I suppose if we knew what the word "hilonday" was supposed to sound like (in what accent / in whose hearing and rendering of the sounds) it would give a better clue.

I'm going to try recording a really straightforward, literal-ish version, soon.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM

Here's one that I'm sure people will have something to say about...

Title: "Roller Bowler"

Print: Hugill; Sharp;
Performers: Finn & Haddie; Stormalong John; Qftry; Bristol Shantymen; John Townley; Richard Adrianowicz; Monkey's Orphan;

Notes:
Hugill's was from Trinidad (anonymous) and Sharp's was from John Short. They have a similar shape, but the pitches vary a lot. Impossible to say whether this was the free variation that characterizes oral transmission, or goofs in transcription (accidently jumping up/down an interval of a fourth/fifth would not be the first time it happened in Hugill).

Stormalong John recorded it (I haven't heard that), but so far as I know, Stan himself did not-- though they may have learned it from him.

The Polish szanty scene has been a site of diffusion. Marek Szurawski is no doubt to be credited for this. His group Stare Dzwony recorded it. Qftry also recorded it in Polish, I think theirs bears the influence of Finn & Haddie's, just because of the way they shout out the Polish equivalent of "timme!"   I don't know much about the Bristol Shantymen, except that they seem to interact a lot with Polish groups -- based on the fact that these groups record many of the same body of less-common chanteys. They sing what I believe are Barry Finn's verses.

Barry Finn learned "Roller Bowler" from Szurawski in 1992. Some of the details of the circumstances are relayed in this mudcat post
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=77252#1379069

I picked up this song from Mareck Shakowsky (that's how it sounds, I sure it's not how it's spelled) in the summer of 92 during the tall ships (sail-op) visit to Boston. Mareck was acting as laison between the cadets & the captain (basically the 1st mate) aboard the wishbone schooner the Zawisza Czarny (translated; the Black Knight). I got invited (because I was singing on board with a fiddler who had just signed on) to go for an afternoon sail & as soon as we cleared the pier Mareck picked up a concertina & started playing (maybe as a call to work?) while playing he started shouting out orders & the crew/cadets started in with setting the sails with Mareck then starting to sing shanties, Londion Julie being the 1st & following it with Roller Bowler accompanied by 2 long time sea musicians, John Townley & Simion Spaulding & a few of the musicians in the crew with the others handling the sails & singing the responses. It was heaven.

For those who have not heard Finn & Haddie's rendition, see HERE.

After John Townley and the Polish crew of Zawisza Czarny returned home they recorded shanties from the voyage, incl "Roller Bowler", see HERE.

Barry says elsewhere that Townley refreshed his memory of Szurawski version later on.

Richard Adrianowicz recorded the song on his 2002 album. His notes:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=49087#751280

My version of this shanty is a combination of some of the verses from Barry Finn and the setting that Shay Black sings. I first heard of this song from Barry Finn (minus the full chorus) who got it from Polish shanty singer Marek Siurawski. I had heard that Shay Black sang it too but with a full chorus. I heard Shay's version when he, chanteyranger, myself, Skip Henderson, and Jim Nelson sang some shanties for the dedication of the new MUNI (local light rail) F-Line which ends up a block away from Hyde Street Pier in San Francisco. Shay Black told me that he used to sing Roller Bowler when he lived in Liverpool and was singing with the band Stormalong John. I believe Shay learned the song from Stan Hugill who used Stormalong John as his shanty chorus for one of his concert tours. You can hear Shay singing the song on Stormalong John's cd Liverpool, a re-release of songs from earlier cassette tapes they had made. There is no indication on the Liverpool cd of who is in the band but there's no mistaking Shay's distinctive voice and he confirmed that it was indeed he on that recording. There is also a recording of Roller Bowler sung by Shay Black on a cd of a French sea music festival, Les Musiques De La Fete: Brest '92. It's too bad Barry Finn never has recorded it because he does a wonderful job on it [LATER RECORDED IN 2007].

I had fun with the "timme!" yells in the chorus. I sing the yells as solo lines simply because I like the way it sounds - it's not traditional to do it that way.

Though Richard says it is based in the setting of Shay Black, that sounds pretty much like all the versions I've heard (including Barry's). Still having not heard Stormalong John's version, it would seem that they set this now-common melody form. Monkey's Orphan, who also learned it from Shay Black, have this to say:
http://www.robingarside.co.uk/moremb.htm

Shanty Jack thinks he may have got this from the singing of Shay Black, sometime member of Stormalong John of Liverpool. This version differs somewhat from the 2 versions in Hugill, both of which have two short choruses and a longer one in each verse. This version has one short chorus and one long. We don't know whether it's an authentic version or just a result of approaching senility. Stan associates the song firmly with capstan work and the W. Indian sugar and rum trades.

Now, for whatever it's worth, the melody of all the foregoing interpretations is different from the print versions of both Hugill and Sharp. It seems Stormalong John may be ground zero for the new trajectory of this chantey. The question would be then, from where and how they learned it. Was it their own creation/variation, or learned orally from Stan -- in which case again his book is far off (though certain similarities corroborated by Sharp's version make the latter unlikely).

Here's an interpretation of what Hugill has in SEVEN SEAS. The harmony line is my own addition:

Roller Bowler

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:24 PM

Hugill was prone to assumptions which, on examination, do not stand up.
One of these is a statement, in "Shanties from the Seven Seas," in his discussion of "Good Morning, Ladies All," or "Roller Bowler."
Without foundation is: "The line 'Good morning, ladies all' brings us to two more shanties which include this fairly obvious Negro phrase, and I feel certain phrase, and I feel right in saying that any shanty including it can be said to be of Negro origin. His only reference is a minstrel song of the 1850s and the statement with it that Here is "a genuine Negro song given by a southern slave owner."

The phrase in known in both England and North America, used to greet a group of female students or other group of women. An example from England is found in a play for teenage girls by John Spurling, presented at Cheltenham Ladies College, "Racine at the Girls' School," where the young women are met with the greeting from Racine, "Good morning, ladies all!"
Other examples may be found in google search of literate English usage.

Robert C. Leslie, in "Old Sea Wings, Ways and Words in the Days of Oak and Hemp," , London, 1890, Chapman and Hall Ltd., describes the sailing of an American Black X ship from St. Katherine's Docks, bound for New York, p. 233: "Yankee seamen (almost an extinct race now) were then noted for their capstan chants, and the chorus of "Good Morning, Ladies All," swells quaintly up at intervals above the other sounds."" [Leslie was speaking of the 1880s]

Terry learned the song from "Northumbrian sailors" He speculated on a "more southerly" origin, but no more than that. In his version, the sailing is from London docks to New York town, the course of the sailing described by Leslie.
Perhaps the chantey is of Black X origin.

Leslie's book is reproduced in full here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/oldseaswingsways00leslrich/oldseaswingsways00leslrich_djvu.txt

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:56 PM

Q, I agree with you that Hugill's stated argument for the phrase "Good Morning, Ladies All" indicating Black origins is pretty weak. However, I think he had other causes to believe that these particular chanteys developed in or were influenced by Black culture.

One is that while "Good Morning, Ladies All" might be a generally English phrase, it did not necessarily occur in song. And knowing that so many other chanteys have borrowed catch phrases from pre-existing minstrel songs and Black-American and -Caribbean songs, there is something to his suggestion about the song he cites. You are right though that it is a bold assumption to cast any song with that phrase as having such-n-such origin.

Indeed, the chantey you reference in Terry (Pt.1) would have the least to connect it to Black America. Because Hugill has, however, grouping together three (wholly different) chanteys based on their all having the phrase "Good Morning, Ladies All," that one got chucked in there. That one, call it "Good Morning, Ladies All - (B)" might have been connected to the others less cautiously. Basically, as I see it Hugill's cause to file it with "Black" chanteys is based in:
1) it has the "good morning" phrase, and while that alone is not enough evidence, that there are 2 other chanteys (and a minstrel song) with that phrase makes a suggestion
2) He learned it from West Indian seamen
3) It has the combination of "heave" and "haul" that, in Hugill's hypothesis, indicated an origin in cotton-screwing.

Q, thanks for that Leslie reference. I'm not sure what to make of it either way. We don't know which "Good Morning" chantey he was referring to. And by the 1880s, the creolization process and creative process of chanteys was basically complete. Terry and Sharp -- the latter whom collected a version of Hugill's version (A) of "Good Morning" (a totally diff. chantey) -- both collected from White men in Britain, but that's not to say that many of their chanteys did not have Afro-American origins.

"Good Morning..." - version (A) has the additional "clue" of the "yeller gals" phrase. It was learned by Hugill from Tobago Smith. Sharp got it from John Short.

Back to "Roller Bowler," it has several phrases, including "high rig a jig," that have appeared in other chanteys ascribed to a Black or creole American context (e.g. "Clear the Track").

For reference to tunes, here are my tries at interpreting the two additional "Good Morning" chanteys. I don't know of any other chantey-singers who have recorded them (??) -- tho no doubt Tom (up-thread) has worked on John Short's version.

Good Morning Ladies All - (A)

Good Morning Ladies All - (B)

Subject: Lyr Add: RIG-A-JIG
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 01:20 AM

Ascribing 'rig-a-jig' to black or Creole origin is a stretch too far. The reverse is more likely.

Rig-a-jig is the name of a Celtic group from Canada and Rig-a-jig Jig of a Norfolk fiddle group.
Riga-jig is a common children's rhyme, U. S., Australia and UK. A book of dances for kids by Mike Johnson (Australia) is called "Rig-a-jig Jig."

As I was walking down the street,
Down the street, down the street,
A friend of mine I chanced to meet
Hi hi ho hi hi ho hi ho
Rig-a-jig and away we go,
Away we go away we go,
Rig-a-jig and away we go
Hi hi ho hi hi ho hi ho.

I remember this from childhood. There was a game attached which I can't remember. A longer one, similar, at kididdles.com, the kids' website.
In the 19th c., the common verses were (white play party song and game, not reported from black sources):

Lyr. Add: RIG-A-JIG
"Weaver's Maid," vers. at U. C. Berkeley.
(This version from "Heart Songs")

1
As I was walking down the street,
Heigh-o, heigh-o, heigh-o, heigh-o
A pretty girl I chanced to meet, Heigh-o, heigh-o, heigh-o.
Chorus:
Rig-a-jig jig, and away we go, away we go, away we go;
Rig-a-jig jig, and away we go, Heigh-o, heigh-o, heigh-o.
heigh-o (8x).
2
Said I to her, "What is your trade?"
Heigh-o, heigh-o, heigh-o, heigh-o,
Said she to me, "I'm a weaver's maid,
Heigh-o, heigh-o, heigh-o.

Did this inspire the chantey or vice versa?

"Rig-a-jig Jig" is dance music from southern England, (Norfolk fiddle music). It is the name of a set of 20 cds of this music put out by Topic Records. www.folkmusicnet.
"Down on Pichelo Farm" has a chorus "and a rig jag jig jag..."

Any bait fisherman knows how to rig a jig.

And old seamens' books speak of a 'jig' or 'jigger,' which Lever defines as "a purchase used in Merchant Ships to hold on the Cable" (1819).

Hugill sometimes opined without real evidence, and at a distance (he wrote his books after WW2, having left sea occupations in the 1930s); he worked as a translator (Japanese) until 1959-1960; at that time he had sufficient support and funds to compile his information and write for publication. He had been a seaman with a strong interest in the days of sail.
This is not to denigrate his labors; his work in assembling chanteys and finding their origins and uses is unequaled, and is largely responsible for the continued interest so many have in the old chanteys.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 08:53 AM

Q,
Your point comes through loud and clear. Hugill OFTEN opined without real evidence. You don't have to convince me -- after all, I'm the person who thinks the "John Kanaka" story is bull :)

Luckily, in his first book (as opposed to the later ones), he lays out all the information he has (scanty as that may be), so that when we does opine, it is fairly transparent to the careful reader that he is just trying to make some sense out of things.   When one is deeply familiar with a whole body of songs, one starts to have a bit of an intuitive sense about how they are related -- a sense that won't come to someone else who just looks at one songs and tries to make conclusions based on the immediate evidence. So I am glad that he included his opinions, in an effort to highlight possible connections, origins, etc. I would have been disappointed if he only wrote "I don't have any specific evidence so I won't say anything about this.

With "rig a jig," like with "good morning ladies," you are of course right that it could be used in a variety of English setting by different people. It is not so much where it could be used though, as where it did happen to be used, in this case in a minstrel-ish chantey ("Clear the Track, Let the Bulgine Run"). And that suggests they may share the same idiom -- enough to give an opinion, in lieu of "hard" evidence. Mind you, this is not a scientist's "opinion," as the humanities rarely offer that kind of hard evidence. You have to say something!

We can say, "Hey Stan, this chantey is not necessarily of Black origins, since you cannot prove that for sure," but I think he knew that -- he makes plenty of disclaimers to that effect. If we have an opinion that the chantey is of another origin X, then we can say that and offer reasons, but we'll be subject to the same criticism of "not necessarily; no hard evidence." So I think positive reasons to suggest (!) an alternate scenario are also helpful.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:53 PM

Well, here's my interpretation of "Hilonday"

HILONDAY

I decided to go with the melody from Terry Pt II (which I finally got, by the way -- hurray!). The reason was, as I mentioned earlier, Hugill and Smith's notations had irregularities (what's more, different in each) that suggest something funky. I'm not averse to funkiness, but without knowing more about how to interpret it I opted for Terry's "regular" form.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,Guest JeffB
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:26 PM

I would like to make a very brief acknowledgement of your mention of the Bristol Shantymen vis-a-vis Polish shanty groups, since I sing with the Bristol Shantymen and it's very gratifying to get a mention on Mudcat - a first, I believe.

I was not in the line-up when the group sang at the Cracow Festival of the Sea in the late 80s-early 90s (at any rate during the Glasnost era before the fall of the communist state there). They were utterly astounded by the enthusiastic reception they had from Polish audiences, who, it seems, had not heard very much at all from Western singers. At one concert they sang for 5000 people. For a short time their rendition of "John Cherokee" was a national hit, and pretty high on the charts, if not number one. As "Roller Bowler" was, and still is, in our repertoire, and as very warm and mutually appreciative contacts were made with Polish shanty singers, it may well be that that is how it became known there.

As for "rig-a-jig", a nautical meaning has never entered my head, but I suppose there must be something in it. The phrase is in the chorus of our version of "Bullgine" - "To me hey rig-a-jig in a sporting car .. etc". As "jig-a-jig" is a more or less international term for bonking, I had always assumed that the chorus was about having it off with a young woman in a hired pony and trap on a jaunt around Central Park. Oh well, must be wrong again ...

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 10:17 AM

Hi JeffB,

It's really great to hear from you here. It's really interesting to learn about the interactions between the Bristol Shantymen and the Polish szanty scene. I have noted many correspondences in repertoire --these "lesser-known shanties" -- between the Bristol boys and Polish groups. Sorry if I have only mentioned these a few times in the thread.

Perhaps others here can also fill in details of what was going on around the time you mention, late 80s, in the interactions between Britain and Poland. Stan Hugill, Bristol Shantymen, and, I'd imagine, Stormalong John were all in attendence in Krakow in those years. But rather than just think about the inter-national exchanges, there were also probably some notable intra-national exchanges between the UK performers that were brought together for the occasion. Also there was probably a certain bit of new development or codification of repertoire in prep for performances, I'd think.

Related, here's the link to Stan's notes about his first visit to Krakow in '87: LINK
an excerpt:
Four Poles, two of them oceanographers, one a journalist and one a television producer, sent a video of their shanty singing, in Polish, to Tony Davis of the Liverpool folk group, the Spinners. As a result they were invited to take part in last year's Liverpool Shanty Festival, where they delighted everyone with their music. This group was called Stare Dzwony - the Old Bells. After that several shanty singers were invited by Jacek Reschke to Krakow to take part in the international shanty festival. As well as myself the invitation included Tony Davis who was in charge, Stormalong John from Liverpool, the Bristol Shantymen, Solant Breezes and two individual singers, Ian Woods and Rod Shearman. We were greeted with TV cameras, we were all mentioned in the Krakow newspapers and Marek, of the Old Bells, wrote a column about us in the magazine Wybrzeze. The Old Bells were formed in 1982 by Marek Szurawski and three friends and obtained their songs, which they translated into Polish, from my book Shanties from the Seven Seas. It seems that long before I reached Poland my name was known to a large following ofteenagers and I was told that I had been with them "in spirit" since the first performance in 1978.

What's really interesting for me is that the Polish singers (at first anyway) would not have been part of the "scene" through which they would automatically sing the most popular shanties of the Revival. By taking Stan's book and selecting songs to translate, it was something of a fresh look at it, and as a result, more of the less-performed songs would have been selected, by chance. And that might be one reason why we see so many Polish examples of these songs that are hardly performed in Anglophone circles.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,Guest JeffB
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 02:53 PM

Thanks very much indeed for that Gibb. I will point this thread out to the other members of the group. It will bring back many happy memories of the festival. I'm sure they will be delighted.

regards JeffB

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 11:15 AM

Updated, on-going list (of course, reflecting my opinion only):

Mudder Dinah/Sing Sally, O! (A)
Mudder Dinah (B)
Shinbone Al / Sister Susan / Gwine to git Home
Round the Corner Sally
Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown
Coal Black Rose"
Come Down, You Bunch of Roses
Bully in the Alley
Lowlands Low ("Island Lass")
Miss Lucy Long
Stormalong, Lads, Stormy / Wo Stormalong
Mister Stormalong / Stormalong
Way Stormalong John
Stormy Along, John / Come Along, Git Along
Walk Me Along, Johnny / Walk Him Along John / General Taylor
Yankee John, Stormalong
Gimme de Banjo
The Gal with the Blue Dress
Johnny, Come Down the Backstay /John Dameray / John Damaray
Mobile Bay / John Come Tell Us as We Haul Away
Miss Lucy Loo
Tommy's On the Tops'l Yard
Hilo Johnny Brown / Stand to Your Ground
Hilo, Boys, Hilo
Tommy's Gone Away
Hello, Somebody
Huckleberry Hunting
Can't Ye Hilo
Hooker John
John Kanaka
Heave Away, Boys, Heave Away (A)
Heave Away, Boys, Heave Away (B)
Dan Dan
Hilonday
Roller Bowler
Good Morning Ladies All (A)

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 12:07 PM

Only tentatively logging this one -- it may be borderline for some of the criteria of inclusion. Still, it can't really hurt to line out a bit of "What Do We Know?" about it.

Title: Billy Riley

Print: Hugill; Sharp; Terry; Colcord; CF Smith
Performers: AL Lloyd, Johnny Collins; Hanging Johnny; Rum & Shrub Shantymen; The Mollyhawks; Shanty Jack; ...many more

Notes:

As can be seen from the "Performers" list, there are plenty of performers keeping some version of this alive. However, like a chantey like "Come Down, You Bunch of Roses," that does not preclude the possibility that the many performances nowadays don't reflect the pre-Revival form(s). Hence my being unsure how if to include it.

Sharp & Terry's versions are very similar. Each of those guys got it from John Short and said they never heard it from any other singer -- perhaps a bid for its rarity. Colcord has a very similar version, but she doesnt seem to say where she got it from or anything substantial about it. I've not seen C Fox Smith's, but Hugill describes its text a little.

Hugill's version, one again, has some notable differences -- much like the scenario we've seen a lot already, where he gives a version from Harding that is unique from his predecessors'. Here, I can't seem to spot where he learned it from. He does connect "Billy Riley" closely with the next chantey, "Tiddy I O," which he got from Tobago Smith. Also, he gives his opinion (not proof, friends :) ), that this was connected with cotton-screwing. So a wee bit of a picture emerges of "Billy Riley" as something belonging to the Gulf/Caribbean world, that spread among deepwater sailors but evidently not enough to propel it into the "common knowledge" (eg "Blow the Man Down") level.

AL Lloyd recorded it on "Blow Blows Blow" album of 1960. His version corresponds to none of the print versions I've seen. I've u hunch that his text, at least, draws some inspiration from C Fox Smith, as he uses the line "Master of a drogher bound for Antigua." Other than that, I can't tell if this is one of his versions that was handed down to him from the God of Folk Music or some Deep Throat that he doesn't mention. His liner notes from the album are vague, speaking of the chantey as if it were just something one "knows."

Johnny Collin's rendition looks to me based in Colcord -- at least it resembles that version most. See HERE for a way to here it.

Now, I've not heard other renditions that I can recall, and while I'd guess that many are based in AL Lloyd's rendition (which I believe to be dubious if history is your focus), I wonder where they all lie.

Hugill's version combines 3/4 and 4/4 meters in an odd way, which only suggests to me that the solos were not necessarily in strict meter, or that there was an overlap between soloist and chorus that could not be represented in the one-staff notation he used. Because of the irregularity of Hugill's, one may be inclined to use Sharp, Terry, or Colcord's versions as sources. However, it would be nice to get a sense of what Hugill did hear, as his versions are often more gritty and interesting.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 02:56 PM

whoops, I forgot 2 important recorded sources for "Billy Riley" that got lost in my mix. One is Stuart Gillespie at Mystic. The other is Tom Sullivan aboard the UNICORN. Both have the fast pace and chant-like quality, similar to Lloyd's, and not conforming to any of the collected versions I've seen. The liner notes to these albums don't say anything.

So my curiosity remains piqued as to whether this chantey lived on into the Revival through the oral channels, or if it was re-adapted in the Revival, after being found to be an indeed effective "fast" halyard chantey (these versions are up to twice as fast as the speed, say, indicated by Terry).

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 11:39 AM

Title: "Tiddy High O" , "Tiddy I O"

Print: Hugill; Sharp
Performers: as below

Notes:
Yet another duet (duel?) between two extant versions, Hugill's and Sharp's. Hugill's is from Tobago Smith; Sharp's is from "Mr. Rapsey, at Bridgewater" in 1906. The lyrics of these samples suggest the interaction between British and Caribbean sailors via the rum and sugar trade. Hugill seems certain that it is of Caribbean origin and picked up by Bristol sailors, but from the texts alone I don't see any reason why it couldn't just as be the other way around. Though the style of singing in the two cultures would certainly differ, from this plain notation it could easily be English or a folksong of the Anglophone Caribbean -- based on what I've heard of folk songs of Jamaica and Trinidad, this is a very common sort.

In any case, it does have status of semi-rarity. I note no recordings by old shellbacks, including Hugill. When it does appear to have surfaced in the revival, there seems to have been a trend in singing it amongst UK groups between the late 80s and mid 90s. The Bristol Shantymen (1988) were the first I see, and theirs comes obviously from Hugill's text. Then: Hanging Johnny (from Plymouth, 1996), The Keelers (Newcastle, 1993), Landlocked (Doncaster, 1995), the Portsmouth Shantymen.

The Carpenter collection does have one "Tally-i-o" that might be related. Recorded from James Wright, who was at sea from 1860s to 1910s. Says, 'Heard in Accrington, a Liverpool ship, in Calcutta         45-50 years ago. Nigger cook. Used for a chantie.'
It's on the Folktrax CD. Perhaps someone with that could say if there is any similarity.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:53 PM

The Folktrax recording of Wright's "Tally-I-O" is badly damaged with both static and skips. It is very problematic. For example, the Carpenter site transcribes the first line as "...was a jolly old soul," but after repeated listenings I still can't hear any "j" sound.

Here's the best I can do. I believe that everything is close to accurate but for what's in brackets.

                Tally-I-O was a silly old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!
                Tally-I-O was a silly old soul,
                        Come tally-I-O, you know!        

                What should I do with me rum, Sally-O?
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                What should I do with me rum, Sally-O?
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                We'll tell [them we're sober, O Sally-O!]
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                We'll tell [them we're sober, O Sally-O!]
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        And sing Tally-I-O, you know!

The tune seems to me to resemble Hugill's but is not identical. Of greater interest is that "Tally hi ho, you know" is the title of one of the "lost" shanties mentioned by Dana as having been sung aboard the brig "Pilgrim" in 1834. There is also a song by J. S. Jones, in print by 1842, that begins with some shanty-like lines:

                A Yankee ship and a Yankee crew,
                Tally hi ho, you know;
                O'er the bright blue waves like a sea-bird flew;
                Sing hey aloft and alow.

Otherwise it's very flowery and was often reprinted. Finally, there are several shore songs with the refrain "Tally-hi-o, the Grinder," going back in print to 1804.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:44 PM

"Tally I O, the Grinder," is mentioned as a capstan chantey from Tyneside, on a couple of websites.
See thread 81169 for the version by the Hush.
Tally-I-O

A little more of "A Yankee Ship and a Yankee crew."

Chorus-
A yankee ship and a yankee crew
Tally hi ho, you know;
O'er the bright blue waves like a sea bird flew,
Sing hey aloft and alow.

1
Her wings are spread to the fairy breeze,
The spray sparkling is thrown from her prow;
Her flag is the proudest that floats on the seas,
Her way homeward she's steering now.
2
A yankee ship and a yankee crew
Tally hi ho, you know;
With hearts on board both gallant and true,
The same aloft and alow.
3
The blackened sky and the whistling wind,
Fortell the quick approach of the gale;
A home and its joys flit o'er each mind
Husbands! Lovers! "on deck there," a sail.
4
A yankee ship and a yankee crew,
Tally hi ho, you know;
Distress is the word, - God speed them through;
Bear a hand aloft and alow.
etc......

Full lyrics in -. P. Morris, "A Hundred Writers," 1841, Linen and Fennell, NYC.; on line at www.archive.org/americanmelodies

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 08:12 PM

Title: "Haul 'Er Away" -- 'version B'!

Print: Hugill; Olmsted
Performers: Tom Sullivan; Gibb Sahib; more...gets confusing due to similar titles

Notes:
Lyrically, related to "Cheerly Man" on one hand (known for having been referenced in Dana and Melville) and to what Hugill called 'version (A)' (known for its tune being that of the common JA song, Missa Ramgoat/Hill 'n' Gully). The "Sally Rackett" theme tends to suggest a song is shaped in the Caribbean (as in the previous, "Tiddy High O").

The one other print source, that I know of, that mentions THIS chantey, is Olmsted INCIDENTS OF A WHALING VOYAGE (1841). The tune has some variations, but it is clearly the same chantey.

Hugill doesn't mention a source by name, just that he learned it in the West Indies. Performances on record are infrequent. One recording I am aware of is Tom Sullivan's on the SALT ATLANTIC CHANTEYS record (1980). It is fairly clear that his is a work up of Hugill's text. Incidentally, he attributes it to Harding, which may not be correct.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 03:15 PM

Hello again!

Billy Riley: SHARP 58: I have no variants of this and I know of no other published version. TERRY2.26: Sung to me by Mr. Short. I have not found any other sailor who knows it. FOX-SMITH p52: I have come across very few of the younger generation of sailormen who have heard it. This version sung in 1850s. 3 verses. COLCORD p74: Halyard shanty. 3 verses. HUGILL: remarkable resemblance between Billy Riley and Tiddy High O! Billy Riley probably started life as a cotton-hoosiers song, but at sea it was used at halyards. 4 verses

Fox-Smith's comment is interesting - she published 'A Book of Shanties' in 1927.

TomB

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 01:50 AM

Gibb, if you're up to the Portsmouth Maritime Music Festival this (late) September I'll ask Neil to sing the version he recorded with Tommy Sullivan, if you remind me, he does a great job of it.

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 08:25 PM

Lighter & Q,

Fascinating stuff. Seems there is much more definite that can be said about the "tally" than the "tiddy"! I personally am not yet sure whether to actually connect them.

Tom,
Interesting they all say "I've never heard it before/much"...or else they don't say much of anything. I think I've convinced myself that "Billy Riley" does belong at home amongst the rare 'n' broken link shanties!

Barry,
That sounds great. You know, I'm real curious in general how everything worked out on the Unicorn...in terms of vessel size, crew size, difficulty of work, and how those factors all blended together to determine the chanteys and the speeds they used.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 10:11 PM

Title: Run, Let the Bulgine Run

Print: Hugill; LA Smith; Sharp; Colcord ("Run with the Bullgine"); Terry; Bullen; Davis/Tozer
Performers: Kasin & Adrianowicz (2006); Gibb Sahib; ?...

Notes:
Classic rare/broken chantey?
Many major collectors print it, with remarkably similar tunes. Yet, it does not seem to be popular in performance today. Kasin & Adrianowicz had to revive it from Hugill's text (also changing a melodic phrase). Hard to gauge how much more it's been done, since the similar title causes it to get mixed with the far better known "Clear the Track"/"Eliza Lee".

Interestingly, this chantey has a "way hey -- oooooh" yodel-ish solo phrase like that has appeared in several of the chanteys already compared here.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 11:22 PM

Jack Murray, Aberdeen, for Carpenter:

       Oh, New York was on fire,
                Run with the bullgine, run!
                Way-ay! O-o-oh!
                We'll run with the bullgine, run!

        Oh, New York was a-blazin',
               Run with the bullgine, run!
                Way-ay! O-o-oh!
                We'll run with the bullgine, run!

James Forman, Leith, for Carpenter:

                                          
        Oh, have the fire-bell rung, run!
                Run with the bulljohn, run!
                Way-ay! O-o-oh!
                Run with the bulljohn, run!
        
        London tops is afire!
                Run let the bulljohn, run!
                Way-ah! O-o-you!
                Run with the bulljohn, run!

        Oh, New York city's in a fire.
                Run with the bulljohn, run!
                Way-ah! O-o-oh!
                Run let the bulljohn run!

The tunes are nearly identical, and essentially the same as Gibb's.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 11:46 PM

After playing with the graphic equalizer, I'm starting to hear "Tally-I-O" like this - including "jolly" for "silly"! Am posting it to suggest just how difficult transcribing from a damaged wax recording can be:                 
               
                Tally-I-O was a jolly old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!
                Tally-I-O was a jolly old soul,
                        Come tally-I-O, you know!        

                What should I do with my rum, Tally-O?
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                What should I do with my rum, Tally-O?
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                We'll [?come clean and] sober, O Tally-O!
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                We'll [?come clean and] sober, O Tally-O!
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:25 AM

I tried to find out more about bulgines and fires in this thread but with little success.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:32 AM

C# from John Short

(Run Let the)Bullgine Run. (originally noted as Bulljohn!)

We'll run from night till morning
O run let the bulgine run
Way-yah oo, oo, oo, oo, oo, oo
O run let the bulgine run

We'll run from Dover to Calais

We'll run from York to London

Very elaborate decoration of the Way-yah o-o-ooo-o.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 09:22 AM

Snuffy, thanks for the thread ref. You're quite right: it's London "docks," not "tops," which doesn't make much sense.

The shanty makes it pretty clear that a "bullgine" was a fire engine and not (at least in this case) a locomotive.

I suspect that the New York fire-engine stuff was inspired by the 1848 smash-hit show "A Glance at New York," which introduced the character "Big Mose," a NYC "Bowery Boy" who was also, prominently, a volunteer fireman. More information here, including references to Mose's supposed adventures at sea:

http://ahistoryofnewyork.com/2009/02/big-mose-must-of-dropped-it.html

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM

Lighter, no need to convince (me) any further how difficult that transcription can be! I can barely hear any of it :) (I've heard the recording now, through the kindness of Snuffy.) I suppose it's not worth much then, to say that I hear "silly" -- your earlier suspicion.

Great job with the transcriptions, all around, guys.

I'm also happy to learn about this new (to me) "fire" theme in relation to the bulgine. I'm trying to imagine a possible evolution of this song, now that the fire idea puts in a twist. Previously I would have thought it started as a minstrel song (strictly entertainment) and that a work song (chantey) was based in it, off of some key lyrical and melodic phrases. But the "fire" theme suggests to me that that form was developed as a shore work song, first (i.e. before being adopted by sailors). And I'm wondering what that might have been....Can this halyard-chantey-type pattern work for some railroad task?

Unrelated, but I was struck by the similarity of the description of the Bowery B'hoys to Jamaican "Rude Bwoys" (and later urban working class dandies, like the Teds and Skinheads).

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 07:45 PM

Here's an updated/corrected (hopefully) tally of Hugill's contributed by stated Caribbean informants. This applies to the abridged version of SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS. (I don't own the unabridged version, but from my examination of the "limited preview" available on-line it shows no additional chanteys gathered in the Caribbean.)   This is just to list Hugill's cited sources, not to say that these chanteys are necessarily of Caribbean origin.

There are a total of 54 chanteys. That comes out of a text (abridged version) with approximately 279 songs-- 228 unique chanteys, by my reckoning.

From HARDING 'THE BARBARIAN' OF BARBADOS - 37 shanties:
Stormy Along, John
'Way Stormalong John
Stormalong, Lads, Stormy
Sally Brown
Randy Dandy O!
High O, Come Roll Me Over
Where Am I to Go, M'Johnnies
Roll, Boys, Roll
The Codfish Shanty
Ranzo Ray (C)
Hilo, Come Down Below
Hello Somebody
Shallow Brown (B)
Can't Ye Hilo?
The Gal with the Blue Dress
Johnny Come Down the Backstay
Rise Me Up from Down Below
John Kanaka
Hooker John
Haul 'er Away (A)
Old Moke Pickin' on the Banjo
Gimme De Banjo
Haul Away, Boys, Haul Away
Walkalong, My Rosie
Coal Black Rose
Bunch o' Roses
'Way Me Susiana
Do Let Me Lone, Susan
Doodle Let Me Go
Sing Sally O (Mudder Dinah) (A)
Sing Sally O (B)
Round the Corner, Sally
Essequibo River
Alabama (John Cherokee)
Dan Dan
Hilonday
Pay Me the Money Down

From "OLD SMITH" OF TOBAGO (6):
Lowlands Low
Walkalong You Sally Brown
Hilo Boys Hilo
Good Morning Ladies All (A)
Sing a Song, Blow Along (Dixie Land)
Tiddy High O

From HARRY LAUDER of ST. LUCIA (5):
Heave Away Boys, Heave Away (B)
Sister Susan (Shinbone Al)
Eki Dumah
Bulley In the Alley
Pay Me the Money Down

From TRINIDAD, anonymous (3):
Roller Bowler
Miss Lucy Long
Miss Lucy Loo

From ST. VINCENT, anonymous (1):
Heave Away Boys, Heave Away (A)

WEST INDIES in general, anonymous (5):
Roll the Woodpile Down
Tommy's on the Tops'l yard
Haul 'er Away (B)
Good Morning Ladies All (B)
Won't Ye Go My Way?

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:24 PM

Title: Pay Me the Money Down

Print: Hugill; LA Smith; periodical articles from 1858 and 1911.
Performers: The Keeler's; Kimber's Men; Trim Rig & a Doxy; Lime Scurvy

Notes:

Hugill got it from Harry Lauder of St. Lucia, with additional lines from Harding. He thought it may have been a West Indian shore worksong taken to sea (for halyards). It certainly shares characteristics with other Caribbean songs.

The earliest reference I find is in THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY, June 1858, which gives these lyrics to a pumping song:

Solo: Your Money young man is no object to me
Cho: Pay me the money down!
Solo: Half a crown's no great amount
Cho: Pay me the money down!
Solo & Cho: Money down, money down, pay me the money down!

LA Smith's work (1888) basically plagiarizes this source (something, I've noted. she also did elsewhere.)

Harriette Wilbur also mentions the song in an issue of THE CATHOLIC WORLD, 1918. It looks to me like a more well-disguised plagiarizing of the preceding!

There is also the well-known "Pay Me My Money Down," as recorded by Parrish in the Georgia Sea Islands in 1942, which is probably a relative. See up-thread for some of Q's notes on that song, and also Barry Finn's notes here.

But while that song has been widely performed (albeit usually in highly co-opted form), the chantey does not get performed as much. I suspect that any versions ultimately derive from Hugill's text. However, I'd be very interested to hear about what some of the earlier revival performances are. (Most of my references, above, are very recent recordings.)

I also wonder about when the popular line about "half a crown or I don't drop 'em down" may have come into the picture.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:27 PM

Gibb, I'm just popping in to say Thanks for your work on this subject. This is very interesting reading.

And BTW, I'm also glad to say that this is post #200.

It's rare that I get that posting, so that's worth singing about.

:o)