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Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)

mayomick 01 Apr 09 - 12:17 PM
mayomick 01 Apr 09 - 12:25 PM
MartinRyan 01 Apr 09 - 12:37 PM
mayomick 04 Apr 09 - 09:42 AM
MartinRyan 04 Apr 09 - 04:14 PM
MartinRyan 05 Apr 09 - 04:55 AM
MartinRyan 05 Apr 09 - 05:04 AM
mayomick 05 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM
MartinRyan 06 Apr 09 - 03:58 AM
GUEST 06 Apr 09 - 01:31 PM
MartinRyan 06 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM
MartinRyan 06 Apr 09 - 02:46 PM
GUEST 06 Apr 09 - 02:54 PM
MartinRyan 07 Apr 09 - 04:38 AM
MartinRyan 07 Apr 09 - 04:46 AM
mayomick 07 Apr 09 - 04:38 PM
MartinRyan 07 Apr 09 - 04:41 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 09 - 06:53 PM
pavane 08 Apr 09 - 05:04 AM
mayomick 08 Apr 09 - 09:58 AM
mayomick 08 Apr 09 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Liam O 'MEara 18 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM
MartinRyan 18 Aug 11 - 05:02 PM
GUEST 21 Sep 11 - 02:29 PM
MartinRyan 21 Sep 11 - 02:33 PM
GUEST 12 Oct 11 - 04:33 PM
MartinRyan 12 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,Liam O' Meara 15 Dec 11 - 07:01 PM
mayomick 15 Dec 11 - 09:09 PM
GUEST 16 Dec 11 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Zozimus 16 Dec 11 - 12:59 PM
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Subject: Lyr Add: BILLY'S DOWNFALL (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:17 PM

BILLY'S DOWNFALL
Probably by Zozimus (Michael Moran), 1836

By the mountain Slieve Guillion, the might of O'Mullen,
By the sense of O'Connell that schemers can see,
By our champion Fingall, who invaders beat all,
By Hebrew King Saul and Drumcondra big tree,
By Zozymus Moran, and Catholics shorn,
By Dido forlorn, at Tyre who did fall,
By Tighe's dirty breeches, that both stinks and itches,
I ne'er had a hand in King Billy's downfall.

By the old man's white liver, which Downes made to quiver,
By the great Shannon river, and Brian Boru,
By peelers, pig-stealers, and all dirty dealers,
I vow that my oath is both honest and true.
I owe spite to no man, high Dutchman or low man;
With watchmen, when tipsy, I might have a brawl,
But plotting 'gainst dead men, or knocking down lead men...
I ne'er had a hand in King Billy's downfall.

By the curst sorrel horse that knocked Bill on his arse,
By the grand Orange farce in the Lords now going on,
By the '98 yeomen, who proved they were no men,
By the famous old woman that cracked Caesar's crown,
By Johnny McCrea that at last ran away,
By the big active flea that draws cannon and ball,
By Owen O'Neill who made Bessy to quail,
I ne'er had a hand in King Billy's downfall.

By brave Coriolanus and wiggy McManus,
By dirty King Shamus, that ran from the Boyne,
I never was willing dead men to be killing,
Their scurry blood spilling, with traitors to join.
For true-heart allegiance, without much persuadience,
Myself and all Paddies, we're still at a call,
But to burke a poor king, 'tis a horrible thing,
Granu's sons never heard it in Tara's old hall.

Enclosed in the rails Billy's horse now remains,
And the creature looks blue for his rider that's gone,
But Mallet will strive Billy's shape to revive,
And cause him to ride on his four-footed throne.
But Billy, my boy, on the Twelfth of July
I hope you will try not to dress as before,
For if that you do, perhaps you may rue,
And a visit ensue from some crony once more.

Source: Irish Political Street Ballads and Rebel Songs (1780-1900)
George-Denis Zimmermann, Genève, 1966.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:25 PM

Zimmermann took Billy's Downfall from an 1836 broadside in Cambridge University Library.
Zimmermann notes,
"The equestrian statue of King William III ,which stood in the centre of College Green Dublin was annually coloured white and decorated with Orange lillies , a scarlet cloak and an orange sash ,to commemorate the Protestant victory at the Battle of the Boyne.It was the object of several outrages ,unil it was decapitated and finally removed in 1929. "


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:37 PM

It's also referred to in The Night before Larry was Stretched :

On his travels we watched him next day
The throttler - I thought I could kill him
But Larry not one word did say
Nor changed - till he came to King William
And then, boy, his colour turned white!

i.e. he passed the statue on his way to execution.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: mayomick
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 09:42 AM

Martin ,

I only know of five poem/ songs that are accredited to Zozimus : Billy's Downfall , Men of Sweet Liberty Hall , The Twangman , The Finding of Moses , Dickie in the Yeomen .

Do you think a search of archives would be likely to turn up any others ?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:14 PM

mayomick

I have a reprint of an 1871 article on Zozimus which contains a number of his songs. I may also have some other material - if I can find it! I'll chase them up when I get a chance.

The reprint, incidentally, still turns up in bookshops occasionally - it was produced by a bookshop/printers in Blackrock, Co. Dublin. Where are you based? If you're interested, I can keep an eye out for a copy - it's generally not expensive.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 04:55 AM

The article referred to was written as a pamphlet by one James Tully and was the basis of Yeats' The Last Gleeman essay. It includes the following:

St. Patrick was a Gentleman
Zozimus's Great Recitation (The life of Saint Mary of Egypt) (poem)
Maguire's Triumph (poem?)
Finding of Moses (two versions)
Dickey and the Yeoman
The song of Zozimus
A new song on the two corporations
The address of Zozimus to his friends
The Grand Song of Zozimus on the Liberty (Ye men of sweet Liberty's hall)
Song on a trial of Daniel O'Connell (no title)
The T.B.C. (air: Shan van Bocht)


As you say, Zimmerman's great Irish Songs of Rebellion ascribes Dickey in the Yeomen and Billy's Downfall to Zoz, though taking the words from broadsides.

Regards.

p.s. The exagerated Dublinese usually heard when Moses is sung, seems to have been introduced when it was published in the Cuala Press Broadsides edition in the 1930's.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 05:04 AM

BTW I know of no reason to associate The Twangman with Zozimus - though the claim is often made. Certainly, Frank Harte didn't think it was his.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM

I'm in Dublin. Martin, thanks very much for your notes. I'd certainly like to hear if a copy of the pamphlet you mentioned turns up.

On your points: Twangman doesn't sound like the other ones ascribed to Zozimus to me either. I like the song, but it seems more earthy, less literary - especially when it comes to rhyming. It has no political content, and the tone is harsher and with none of the irony or wit that I associate with Zozimus.

I'm not sure if Zimmermann's suggested tunes for Dickie in the Yeomen and Billy's Downfall are what they would have been sung to by Zozimus. Maybe that's because I first tried to fit the words to pre-existing tunes in my own head though.

I'm also doubtful about the tunes I've heard for Men of Sweet Liberty Hall either. I would like to know if there are any direct lines of ascent from the way Zos sang the songs to the versions we hear today. The tune I hear in my own head for Liberty Hall is closer to the Coolin than it is to how I have heard it sung (or to the music for it I once saw in a Dominic Behan songbook). Dominic Behan gives the words as "Come ye men of sweet Liberty Hall, and ye women around by the Coombe." It should be "weavers around by the Coombe" surely?

All the best now........mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:58 AM

"weavers" would be nice, alright (I went to school in Donore Avenue!) - but I'm afraid Tully has "women"!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 01:31 PM

Hi lads,
It fascinates me how "Patrick was a Gentleman" became asociated with Zozimus. This song started life with 3 verses and was written by Henry Bennett and Mr. Toleken of Cork, in 1841. It appears in "Our Familiar Songs" by Helen Kendrick Johnson 1889 and also in "The Lyrics of Ireland" by Samuel Lover 1858. Samuel Lover, being a Dubliner, would no doubt have been aware of the repertoire of Zozimus and would have mentioned him had there being any connection. In the first version, his father was a Wollogan, In Lover's version, his father was a Gallagher, and in the Memoirs by Thomas Hand, his father a Callaghan, so he explained quiet a lot with his sprig shamrock!
Mick, if your still in Dublin on Wednesday, stick your head into the Cle Club and I'll ive you a print-out.
                              Regards,
                                  Tony McGaley


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM

Hi Tony

Interestingly, the Tully memoir introduces the song with the following:

The first song we remember hearing Zozimus sing was the following well-known ditty... which does not, in fact, unambiguously claim it for Moran.

I'd be interested in the details of the 1841 reference.

Lover, as you may know, wrote an essay on "National Minstrelsy" which contains interesting material on ballad-singing in Dublin. Off the top of my head, he makes no reference to Zozimus - but I'll check.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:46 PM

Some good backrgound on Zozimus HERE

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:54 PM

Hi Martin,
Lover was only 3 years younger than Zozimus so I imagine he would have known of his songs. If you do a search under Henry Bennett you might get more links.You will find in many old songbooks that these 2 guys are given credit for writing the song. If you search for the book "Our Familiar Songs", which can be downloaded from some of the free book sites, the reference is on page 441.
While there is still a possibility these guys stole it from Zozimus, where is the evidence?
I discussed this with Barry Gleeson and he now believes it wsa not written by Zozimus. I'll check with him if he got any other links.
Hope to see you a the Goilin's 30th party
                                              Tony


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:38 AM

Far be it from me to claim St. Patrick was... for Zozimus - especially since my first acquaintance with it was to hear the opening lines sung as part of the shanty Haul Away Joe , many years ago!

FWIW, as I guessed, Lover makes no mention of Zozimus in his essay. I'll post a link if I can find it online (though, in passing, I hate wading through poor OCR!).

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:46 AM

The text of Lover's Legends and Stories of Ireland is available HERE. Scan to page 213 or so to find the article of interest. As usual, the OCR is a bit dodgy.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: mayomick
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:38 PM

Yes ,I'm still around Tony, where is the Cle Club ?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:41 PM

Wednesday nights, Liberty Hall.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:53 PM

Hi Mayomick,
The Cle Club will be singing songs on the theme of 1916, with Easter just around the corner. It starts around 9.00 pm, (unless your a Liverpool fan).Cover charge 5 euro. If you don't have an Easter song, don't worry, coma and sing a song anyway, maybe even Billy's Downfall" Just ask for me.
Martin, thanks for the link. I actually have that book by Lover nad must read thru it again.Next puzzle is why did "Billy's Downfall" not get a mention in the Memoir on Zozimus? A song like that deserves to be sung
                                 Tony


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: pavane
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:04 AM

I have an interest in things related to King Billy, because my ancestor, who was trained as a Calvinist preacher, was one of his tutors when he was a child.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: mayomick
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:58 AM

I just read on Wiki that King Billy died after falling from his horse, Sorrel, which explains the reference to the sorrel horse in the last verse.

It has been said that Billy was actually murdered in France, and that the horse riding accident was a cover up. Nothing new in that Lady Di conspiracy theory! Did you ever hear anything like that Pavane?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: mayomick
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:00 AM

Sorry, the reference to the great sorrel horse is in the second verse.


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Subject: RE:Zozimus
From: GUEST,Liam O 'MEara
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM

No posts here for a while. I wonder if you guys are still interested in Zozimus as I am bringing out a book shortly which will include some work not widely known


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 05:02 PM

'course we're interested!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 02:29 PM

The Memoir is the best source, but gets a few things wrong, for instance he (Judge Keogh ?) says the St. Mary poem was 250 pages long and was condensed by Moran. It was not, it is exactly as in appears in Bishop Coyle's book. He also gives St Patrick as Moran's work, which it clearly was not. Billy's Downfall is mentioned By PJ Mc Call ( 1893). He quotes 4 lines and tells a story of someone sending a small boy to acquire a copy of the poem from Moran. Twang Man, even according to O Lochlainn (whose loose reference led us all astray), is circa 1850 which is after Moran's time - Liam O' Meara


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 02:33 PM

Thanks Liam - any progress on the book?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 04:33 PM

Yes, The book is finished and I am now proof reading etc which is difficult as the spell ckecker is telling me all the words are wrong! The book consists of a biography drawing together the previous well known sources and adding my own research from more obscure sources. I have all the known poems plus others I have found. A short story, he allegedly recited; details of court cases involving Moran; songs about his friends Stoney pockets, Dandyorum, Cantering jack, etc with some info on these characters; some photos/drawings also. My work-mate, Bernard Warfield did a wonderful turn as Zozimus singing Pharaoh's daughter last week at the City Hall.   - Liam O' Meara, Liberties Living Heritage.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM

I look forward to it!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: GUEST,Liam O' Meara
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:01 PM

"Zozimus" now available
From back cover:
'This is the most comprehensive 'Zozimus' biography ever published. It deals with the life of the blind 18-19th century Dublin street-performer, Michael Moran, who acquired the strange name from his habitual recitation of a poem by Bishop Antony Coyle dealing with the conversion of a penitent prostitute by the holy abbot, Zozimus of Palestine. Moran was more of a polemic than anything else and regularly sounded off about the Corporation, the Parliament and Repeal of the Union. His best known works are 'Pharaoh's Daughter' and 'The Grand Song on the Liberty.' Here in this book you will find all the known works brought together for the first time, with some interesting additions, being the fruits of Liam O'Meara's intensive research.. In particular, there is an early unpublished version of 'Pharaoh's Daughter' from a manuscript held in Marsh's Library; full length texts of 'Billy's Downfall' and 'Dicky in the Yeoman', a four- liner on 'the death of a flea' and previously uncollected poems. Hilarious reports from court cases involving Moran give insight into this intriguing character. Finally a few contemporary songs by other artists on the eccentric friends of 'Zozimus' complete this study.               
Details 144 pages. Colour cover, softback, illustrated; 15 euro which includes postage. l_omeara@yahoo.co.uk
_____________________________________________________
Liam O'Meara is a researcher with the Liberties Living Heritage Group. He is author of The Bayno; Within and Without- Dublin Churches of St. Nicholas; Burned all My Witches; and Francis Ledwidge, Poet, Acivist and Soldier. He is best known for his poetry, for which he has won awards in Ireland, Scotland and Sardinia. He is co-founder and chairman of the Inchicore Ledwidge Society.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:09 PM

Can I get a copy of it in Dublin anywhere ,Liam ?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:48 PM

Launch will not be until after Christmas so if you want a copy for Christmas you can order/ call directly from me - details email
l_omeara@yahoo.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Billy's Downfall (Zozimus/Michael Moran)
From: GUEST,Zozimus
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:59 PM

see Gumtree website for image Zomimus book.
enquiries mobile 0851425752


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