Traditional music & the 'net generation'

Subject: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:54 AM

One of the themes that pops up regularly here is whether the folk scene is doing enough to attract younger people through the doors and thereby to perpetuate the scene when us oldsters go to that great ceilidh in the sky. There have been many and various opinions and responses to this theme - pro and con - which I don't want to resurrect here. What I'm interested in is a word or two on what some of us term the "net" generation or, more currently, the "Google" generation. A youngster in the net or Google generation is defined by the pundits as someone who was born in or after 1993, and has therefore probably grown up knowing the internet world from very young. Of course, the majority of the youngsters in this definition will be from IT-developed countries.

I work in higher education, dealing with students and educational and information resources for students, and this concept of a net generation becomes increasingly important when discussing methods of teaching which may or may not mesh with the way in which this generation learns - and methods of imparting resource information which also mesh in. It's not assumed, incidentally, that the net generation outlook is any better or worse than old-fashioned ways - it's just different, and there are advantages and drawbacks in both.

Typically, the net generation person might be someone who, while lying around in a chair, is simultaneously listening to an iPod, chatting with their friends either one-to-one on email or collectively on social networks, doing a school project using Google and other internet search engines - all potentially at the same time in one seamless internet mash-up. The current question for the educators and information professionals is whether the methods that they have traditionally used should be re-examined and changed to acknowledge the very different approaches taken by their charges. This re-examining of approaches takes into account web 2.0 technologies and social networks using RSS feeds, wikis, blogs and others of that ilk.

"Well what the devil has all this to do with folk clubs?" I hear you splutter... Well, actually, quite a lot. If we're really serious about attracting new, young blood into the scene, and we think it's necessary, then an insight into the net generation environment might make us think slightly differently about how we do things. I've just been trawling through folk club web sites, planning a mini-break, whistle-stop tour of clubs in the Lancashire, Cheshire area in May. The web sites are similar in many ways - as you would expect them to be. Some have a presence on MySpace - a nod to social networking - and most don't. And so on. So, for example, a good club presence on MySpace, club RSS feeds of diary dates to mobiles, good, up-to-date club blogs - selections of stuff on YouTube as embedded links... all part of the game.

Now some clubs do much of this already - and I'm not saying that older, more traditional methods of communication should be let go - but the whole concept of the net/Google generation is something worth a look at if we're really serious about getting young faces into old clubs.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:11 AM

"A youngster in the net or Google generation is defined by the pundits as someone who was born in or after 1993, and has therefore probably grown up knowing the internet world from very young."
I'm too old to fit into that definition ...but I'd class myself as one of the net generation. I first got a go on the computer/internet when going to senior school.
I am always looking on networking sites and googling to find events and stuff to go to. (Still not quite sure what the definition a 'Folk Club' actually is.) I also get a lot of exposure to music through youtube and myspace.
(I hope this is the kind of response you were looking for)

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:24 AM

Hi LDT - yes, of course you are! And so are many of us. I think the interesting thing about this term is that it's mainly applied to a generation who've not known anything else. I'm a huge internet user and I'm getting on for...oooh...lots (!), but I've known an entirely different world.

The point really is that, if we're really keen to attract young folk into old folk, we might have to think a little laterally sometimes and be aware of the potential market. :-)

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:30 AM

While our "folk clubs" are very different from yours in the UK, there is no doubt in my mind that the concept of "net generation" communications is valid and vital.

In addition to my radio show, I am the president of the Hurdy Gurdy Folk Music Club in Fair Lawn, NJ. (www.hurdygurdyfolk.org) We present monthly concerts in a 170 seat theater. The club has been in existence since 1981.

In the past, we would promote our concerts through a newsletter to our members (which dwindled from over 400 to less than 100 over 20 years) and standard press releases that were mailed to local newspapers. In addition, I would promote the concerts on my radio show - along with concerts of other area venues.

In the last 10 years, we noticed that newspapers pretty much stopped printing our releases. Attendance declined - but that appeared to be common.

Over the last 4 years, we have made an effort to increase our e-mail list. We send out several notifications and reminders.   Newspapers are now requiring electronic submission for events. We now see regular listings, printing of our releases, and local papers are even doing interviews with our upcoming artists.   With social networks like Facebook, we have also increased communication and seen a response. There are other websites such as Eventful and Reverbnation that have proved to be a benefit.

A publicist told me that current publicity efforts recognize that individuals need THREE separate instances of finding information about your event before reacting. That could be a combination of seeing a poster, reading a notice in a newspaper, hearing a mention on radio, or receiving an e-mail.   The latter is the easiest, fastest, and ultimately cheapest method.

Now, the title of this thread indicates "traditional" music.   As they say, you can lead a horse to water.... etc.   The main thing is creating a route and in an electronic age it helps to use the same tools that your intended audience is familiar with. It makes it "cool"!

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:36 AM

Ron - you've got the point exactly.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Old Roger
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:50 AM

A very interesting topic to me. I run a folk club and was recently thinking about the problem of continuity - how folk music is passed on. This passing on is the communicating, swapping, trading of the material which constiutes the "Tradition". Where you learn it from. It used to be that you learned it from kinfolk. Then it was largely learned from recordings including books and moving pictures via broadcast media. This is all still happening but there is a new medium available which is occupying peoples attention. You guessed, it computers and the 'net.

In the light of several recent threads worrying about folk and folk clubs dying out I was contemplating setting up a thread to exhort all Mudcat folkies to work to increase the exposure folk gets on YouTube. If we want it to live, we have to promote it. We have to win the attention of potential customers. We need to be offering lots of opportunity for people to acquire the taste. If we don't it will be crowded out- muscled aside by all the other jostling stuff and get no airspace at all and will wither away. It needs to struggle robustly to gain airspace and be "there"

As a precursor to starting the thread I decided to begin to set up a virtual version of my folk club on YouTube. Once I had got it going and working then I could use it to underline my verbal message. I am finding it a bit harder than I expected. YouTube is certainly the place but does not seem to lend itself to what I want to do.

I decided to set up a "Channel" under the name "WolfFolkClub". I currently have three videos up there with lots more to go up. Please have a look and let me have your thoughts. I am eager to learn how to get this right.

Cheers

Roger
The Wolf Folk Club (Norfolk England)

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Becks
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 11:32 AM

Well I am not technically in this timeline bracket but I do consider myself of the net generation. Born in 1980 and the now grim age of 29.

I frequently plug myself into the computer dowmoad music, search for clubsm communicate wth clubs and organisers, listen to my ipod whilst uploading stuff to my own website, whilst taking to friends on msn & facebook and checking my myspace mail and on a monday night listening in to Bishop FM online and sending emails.

I am new to this and wouldnt have started to do this unless I had the WWW (world wide web) at my fingertips. I have been playing less than a year and already getting gigs and meeting great people along the way all thanks to the internet and social networking sites many of us (including me at times) curse.

Embrace it and use it, I have only good things to say about it.
When we get to the stage of a totally virtual concert then we need to worry, I suppose they already exist in a way via YouTube and i player, but they only preserve tradition in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 01:21 PM

Hi Roger - I've just taken a look at the YouTube stuff. Good to see nice quality video on the channel. The Dave Bing clip was stunning - well shot and great playing.

Just a tip or two:

1. I know you've got the folk club website URL on the main channel page. I always put my website URL on every video I post - in the "more info" bit as a hot link. People often bypass the main channel page on YouTube. So sell the website (and therefore the club) on every page.

2. Put lots of info on the channel page about the club - doesn't matter what, too much, as long as it's relevant and punchy.

3. Create some webspace where you can have blogs, notices, social interaction with the club - a MySpace page, perhaps, where you can get "friends" listed.

My channel is not perfect, but if you go to the main page at:
HenfieldWill, you'll see that I've set out in some detail what I'm aiming at on the Tube. The link to my website will then take you to a whole set of pages which set what I have to offer (much of it free). You'll see that I've had over 13,000 hits on the counter - and that's just since late January, when I set the counter up. Again - not perfect - but you'll get the point.

Then there's wikis, where people can create communal information, and even RSS feeds, where latest club news gets to email lists or even mobiles (at a cost)...

Good luck!

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:25 AM

Will I think your youtube channel and website is very useful. I have sent a link to my friend who's trying to learn the guitar. I think it will help her a lot.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:39 AM

Thanks, LDT - if it helps her, then it's fulfilling its purpose!

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:39 AM

I have 50 videos up on youtube,dickmilesmusic,here is one that will get you therehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhyDS_jd3I&feature=channel_page
I also have two tracks up on ez folk on EZ FOLK,which cost to download but can be listened to for free,all my youtube videos are free.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:04 AM

Hi Dick - just checked out your YouTube channel. Some excellent music there! Could I respectfully offer some technical comments on the videos? These comments have nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the music, which is all it should be.

1. I always use a DVD camcorder and a separate audio recorder of some sort to create video and audio files - and then synch them up with software such as iMovie (Mc software). Webcams and the internal mics on computers can be very variable in quality. Your audio is OK - if a little quiet - but the video quality is very dim and jerky.

2. Whether you use a webcam or a DVD recorder, good lighting is essential to give a good quality, highly defined image. I sit in direct light by a window to get good definition - but not in direct sunlight, because you get an imbalanced image and whiteouts where the sunlight hits the camera lens. It's difficult to place a desktop PC in this way sometimes because of physical room limitations but, if you can experiment with placement, you might get a brighter and sharper video. You might want to invest in a small, portable, set of lights in a rig.

3. As far as positioning yourself in front of the camer is concerned, I do think it's important to demonstrate the instrument as best as you can. I always check that the guitar, mandolin, or whatever else I'm using, is centralised and not too close to the camera that part of me or the instrument is missing - but not so far away that viewers can't see what's going on. If you're demonstrating a concertina piece, then I would place the instrument and hands as close to the camera as possible so that viewers can see the main fingering.

I offer these comments on the assumption that you're using the Tube as a way of promoting yourself and your music. There's a mass of stuff on the Tube and internet users, on the whole, have a limited patience. If a page doesn't load up quickly, for example, they'll be tempted to click off elsewhere. If your videos are poor quality and difficult to decipher, they won't give them the benefit of more than a few seconds listening and be off to another player.

I hope you'll take the comments as constructive and positive!

Regards,

Will

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:03 AM

Will,

I too work in a University and we're always changing our methods of contacting students, making resources available etc.

Naturally our students want to use technologies they are familiar with and find convenient, but I don't think today's 18 year olds are necessarily any more adventurous than previous generations of students. We find they still need training in information literacy, otherwise they just Google everything and lose sight of quality control.

I'm not quite sure what I'm saying, but I think it's that using the latest technologies won't in itself attract young people to folk clubs etc. Serendipity happens, of course, but mostly people still have to want to find something in the first place. I have a sinking feeling that young people who come to folk music through the web would have found it anyway.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:11 AM

One of the things we're very insistent on is that to use Google and Wikipedia as your sole information sources is to be subjected to dubious evidence and also miss out on valuable databases for which we pay huge sums!

The point is not to ditch the baby with the bathwater but for us to be aware of different social habits and different ways of networking and communication than we, perhaps were used to at the same age. Being adaptive and aware of the possibilities might be a help in drawing in young performers.

But, yes, as Don T said, you can take a horse to the water... and sometimes the horses get to the water in spite of you! :-)

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Andrez
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:35 AM

Social websites harm children's brains: Chilling warning to parents from top neuroscientist
By DAVID DERBYSHIRE
Last updated at 1:45 AM on 24th February 2009
Social networking websites are causing alarming changes in the brains of young users, an eminent scientist has warned.
Sites such as Facebook, Twitter and Bebo are said to shorten attention spans, encourage instant gratification and make young people more self-centred.
The claims from neuroscientist Susan Greenfield will make disturbing reading for the millions whose social lives depend on logging on to their favourite websites each day.

But they will strike a chord with parents and teachers who complain that many youngsters lack the ability to communicate or concentrate away from their screens.
More than 150million use Facebook to keep in touch with friends, share photographs and videos and post regular updates of their movements and thoughts.
A further six million have signed up to Twitter, the 'micro-blogging' service that lets users circulate text messages about themselves.
But while the sites are popular - and extremely profitable - a growing number of psychologists and neuroscientists believe they may be doing more harm than good.
Baroness Greenfield, an Oxford University neuroscientist and director of the Royal Institution, believes repeated exposure could effectively 'rewire' the brain.


Experts are concerned children's online social interactions can 'rewire' the brain
Computer games and fast-paced TV shows were also a factor, she said.
'We know how small babies need constant reassurance that they exist,' she told the Mail yesterday.
'My fear is that these technologies are infantilising the brain into the state of small children who are attracted by buzzing noises and bright lights, who have a small attention span and who live for the moment.'

Professor Susan Greenfield: Concerned
Her comments echoed those she made during a House of Lords debate earlier this month. Then she argued that exposure to computer games, instant messaging, chat rooms and social networking sites could leave a generation with poor attention spans.
'I often wonder whether real conversation in real time may eventually give way to these sanitised and easier screen dialogues, in much the same way as killing, skinning and butchering an animal to eat has been replaced by the convenience of packages of meat on the supermarket shelf,' she said.
Lady Greenfield told the Lords a teacher of 30 years had told her she had noticed a sharp decline in the ability of her pupils to understand others.
'It is hard to see how living this way on a daily basis will not result in brains, or rather minds, different from those of previous generations,' she said.
She pointed out that autistic people, who usually find it hard to communicate, were particularly comfortable using computers.
'Of course, we do not know whether the current increase in autism is due more to increased awareness and diagnosis of autism, or whether it can - if there is a true increase - be in any way linked to an increased prevalence among people of spending time in screen relationships. Surely it is a point worth considering,' she added.
Psychologists have also argued that digital technology is changing the way we think. They point out that students no longer need to plan essays before starting to write - thanks to word processors they can edit as they go along. Satellite navigation systems have negated the need to decipher maps.
A study by the Broadcaster Audience Research Board found teenagers now spend seven-and-a-half hours a day in front of a screen.
Educational psychologist Jane Healy believes children should be kept away from computer games until they are seven. Most games only trigger the 'flight or fight' region of the brain, rather than the vital areas responsible for reasoning.
Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood, said: 'We are seeing children's brain development damaged because they don't engage in the activity they have engaged in for millennia.
'I'm not against technology and computers. But before they start social networking, they need to learn to make real relationships with people.'

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Andrez
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:09 AM

Eeeeeeeeeek, Sorry for dropping in all of the above post. My fumble fingers hit the wrong button and I wasnt able to edit the extract.

I have an education background but worked in an ICT capacity in a secondary school last year. My boss spoke a lot about promoting Web 2.0 across school programs as a means of making ICT more relevant to students and allowing them to communicate in ways that were more familiar.

The issue of concern to me was always that of reducing real communication to short spasmodic bursts between computing sessions. Susan Greenfields article just highlighted some of these concerns for me.

So coming back to the point of this thread, playing music together whether at the folk club or within a social circle has more value in meeting real human needs for connection and communication than any amount of second hand vicarious experience/s via the myriad digital media. Folk clubs and the like meet our very real needs for intimacy and connectedness. Those needs will never be fulfilled by any amount of digital alternatives.

If we continue to support and promote a culture where the prime means of communication is via text, email or Facebook/Myspace we are risking much in terms of students losing or never gaining the skills to communicate by "analogue" means and losing the capacity to share in the full gamut of what it means to be human.

I agree with Will Fly abut not ditching the baby with the bathwater but this technology is all soooooooo new that once again we have little or no understanding of what it means for our culture over the longer term (generations that is) and like the introduction of other technologies in the past, i.e. TV, the Bomb, our social institutions are seriously lagging behind in terms of managing the social, legal, economic impact of those technologies on the rest of us poor buggers!

In practice that means not leaping into promoting the glories of Web 2.0 in schools without some very deep reflection on the implications of doing so and then careful consideration as to how to manage the process of introducing it all.

"Nuff said fer now,

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:29 AM

Andrez - the sort of worries and debates that you've quite rightly shown us in your post(s) have certainly arisen in higher education and probably in primary and secondary education as well.

I don't think I'm actually recommending that we promote Web 2.0 technologies for their own sake - just be aware that, whether we like it or not - the youngsters are using them, probably without realising that they are doing so, and without giving them fancy names like "Web 2.0"!

As to whether it's all a dangerous thing for the mind or not - Susan Greenfield may well be spot on here - I can't see Society (with a capital S) calling a halt to it all unless you actually ban it from homes, schools, cafés, etc. Can you seriously imagine that happening on a nationwide or any-wide scale? Doubtful, somehow. So - even if you don't like it or want to embrace it wholeheartedly, be aware that it's there and it does have its uses.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:38 AM

Andrez - I should also have mentioned that I would never in a million years advocate virtual folk sessions instead of, or as alternatives to the real thing. Everything you say about real, human musical interaction in a group is true. It's whether we can make use of the current networking habits of the young to draw them into walking through our doors.

Here's a parallel problem in my locality. Our village drama & music group is a fine group of amateur performers who put on cracking productions. One of their members was chatting to me in the pub recently about the difficulty of getting young people into the group and the ageing population of the current members. Familiar tale? I thought you'd recognise it!

Here's a strategy they've adopted: they're emailing round community groups and local schools, inviting them to attend an open showcase in the village hall (tonight as it happens) to talk about forthcoming productions ("Hood" is the upcoming Christmas show) and to invite participation. They're going to target local school orchestras to see if they can tempt the young musicians into the shows - and keep them there. Some fancy web stuff - not by itself - but as an adjunct to this human activity, might also have its place.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:05 AM

"One of the themes that pops up regularly here is whether the folk scene is doing enough to attract younger people through the doors and thereby to perpetuate the scene when us oldsters go to that great ceilidh in the sky."

Just to back-track, above is Will Fly's opening sentence from his first post. My reponse to this is: I don't care! I do not consider it my responsibility to attract young people (or anyone else for that matter) into 'the fold'. I'm not an evangelist and I dislike evangelism - for a start. If people - young or old - find their way to folk music, that's fine and I will welcome them - but that's where my responsibility stops. If the next generation allows the music to die out, that's their responsibility, not mine!

I also deplore this tendency to dumb stuff down in order to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. Recently, David Simon, creator of the hit American cop series, 'The Wire', was asked if he thought his work was likely to attract the 'average viewer'. I found his response immensely refreshing; he said: "f*ck the average viewer!" And I say if folk music isn't 'cool enough' for young people - f*ck them too!

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:22 AM

Shimrod - I didn't actually say whether we ought to make such an effort or not. I was merely opening up the topic as a response to some of the themes touched upon in Tom Bliss's polemic in his Living Tradition article. What I'm saying is, if there are people out there who worry about the folk scene and want to do something about the age profile - and thereby the future of clubs, for example - then there are all sorts of things to take into consideration. And the net generation idea is just one of them.

And who said anything about dumbing down? Just because some of what we're talking about is different, and current, doesn't necessarily mean it's trash, or not worthwhile bothering about.

And I say if folk music isn't 'cool enough' for young people - f*ck them too!

Who said anything about "cool"? Your word, not mine. As it happens, I like performing with young people. I like encouraging them to make the kind of music I like. I like teaching them and I like it even more when I can see that the teaching's paying off.

"Fuck them", if you want to - your choice - but, whether you like it or not, they're our future. And I don't just mean folk music. I wonder if the producer of the Wire says "fuck the viewers" when he collects his fat salary?

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:53 AM

Many peoples first port of call when looking for information is the internet. For example I've only been 'into' folk music since April last year...and didn't have a clue there was a free folk festival locally until I googled for folk stuff in my area. I was surprised I'd not noticed before. lol!

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:56 AM

plus....if it wasn't for the internet and the wonders of email and youtube I would never have taken up the concertina or melodeon...as 'a' I wouldn't have known about such instruments and 'b' had no access to anyone who could teach me.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 10:05 AM

Will, I think my previous post sounds more negative than I intended. I agree with you that effective communication uses all appropriate means.

Being 'of a certain age' myself, I was a teenager when folk music was fashionable among students and I wanted to be a student.
I've no way of knowing whether, in a different era when folk music was less fashionable, I would have taken the time to listen.
Unfortunately, I think that's the real problem we're up against at present.

But you're right. We can at least make the music available, attractive and accessible by all possible means and see what happens.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: boosh
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 12:55 PM

i'm 15 years old and i fit your 'net generation' criteria.

and i reckon i like folk music because i'm slightly wrong in the head :)

xx

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 02:39 PM

If emerging technolgies are indeed changing the way that people think and even the manner in which human brains develop through childhood into maturity, I don't think anyone can do very much about it. Evolution will proceed, like it or not.

That does not mean that the human race will necessarily lose interest in the study of history or the appreciation of traditional art forms. It MAY mean that less respect and prestige may be granted to such study by society as a whole, as technical and scientific skills continue to grow in economic importance. However, I think we can be confident that, as always, an intelligent and artistically sensitive minority will keep our various tribal memories alive.

Ways will have to be found ~ and will be found ~ to continue making all kinds of folklore available to anyone with the curiosity and interest to seek it out. In fact, I'm sure that at least a few of the people participating in this discussion are already doing so, even as we "speak" (i.e., as we type).

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 02:41 PM

boosh - welcome to the madhouse! :-)

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 02:54 PM

Okay Boosh, go for it. Come and join the rest of us who are undoubtedly wrong in the head. You will only qualify as a fully-fledged folky when you are completely wrong in the head so keep working on it!

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:32 PM

Hey, boosh! I don't think you're, in any way, 'wrong in the head'. I think you're pretty smart for discovering folk music for yourself. Have you started singing or playing yet? Go for it!

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:02 PM

While I don't personally feel any abiding moral imperative to "get young people into folk", pass on the torch etc etc , I do think it's a shame that so many people are unaware of all those wonderful performers and songs and playing that they could be hearing. I do think that any folk club that doesn't have a website, a myspace page and a facebook group/page is missing out on potential attendees. (Most of them already do, of course.)

One interesting thing about the internet that trad music really benefits from is the wealth of info at your fingertips. If I hear or read about an interesting-sounding song title, I can look up the lyrics and listen to several different performances of that song, within the space of half an hour. That's something that would have struck the song collectors of the 1930s-1960s as something quite incredible.

In a funny kind of way, YouTube could be - indeed arguably already is - one of the best contributors to the promulgation of folk song there's been for decades.

It's great for providing a bite-sized performance of a singer and a song direct to your living room or desk at work. It's a kind of an at-one-remove equivalent of busking. (In fact, I think more youtube musicians should take note of this, stop being so coy, and start video captioning their Paypal URLs in BIG LETTERS across their videos to make the point!)

The only disappointing thing for me has been the lack of actual interesting discussion spawned by youtube, myspace and facebook. When each one first showed up, I thought it would be great: musicians from niche genres would be able to reach out to each other from different corners of the country/continent/globe and make connections, and offer constructive criticism and support to each other. I suppose I was hoping for "social network" to be a bit more "social" than it actually is: some kind of idyllic artist's community that encouraged genuine feedback, debate and scene-building.

That hasn't really happened: myspace has descended into a bit of a jungle of indiscriminate self-promotion, where so-called "friends" only ever "comment" on each other's pages to paste up a flier for their next gig. It's all ME, ME, ME.

But that aside, at least it's THERE, at least it exists - at least you CAN actually follow the links of like minds and discover new, exciting music.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: boosh
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:11 AM

yup, i play in a band with some other young like-minded local nutters.

oh, and i'm a morris dancer :)

x

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:29 AM

Good post Becks. Ditto to many of your thoughts.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:22 PM

Will's youtube pages pop up all over the place...cuckoos and all. :0)

The Folk Clubs of England 'Myspace' page...I started one ages back, never got round to finishing it though, as 'life' got in the way...

So..that idea is still out there, one page where all the clubs are on...There aren't enough folk clubs on Myspace, but...it's improving all the time.

Do the same on Facebook...and on Twitter as well..

Create a Virtual 'Folk and Acoustic Cafe' on the net...and yes, get everything on Youtube! Get the folk clubs to have their own channels on there, link them all up..

And...get Will and Tom Bliss to show you how it's done! :0)

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Elijah Browning
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM

As corporate greed stifled the small record labels and venues, I'd contend that the 'net has given a place for the displaced. In a world where very few of us have front porches to play guitars on, the keyboard becomes the replacement. Not my ideal, to be sure, but still it is a way for expression by the folk, and not in an academic sense, but in a real and vital outpouring. Can't afford studio time? Build one in your closet for under a $1,000. Don't have a label? Post it and be immediately available world-wide. And how cool is it to email the Library of Congress at breakfast requesting information on the original authorship of a song listed as anonymous in 1938 and have an answer before lunch? There are cons to the pros to be sure. Still, there are pros. And if there are those that come in late to the show, at least it will be here for them to find.

As for interaction...
I'm right on the line. I remember when people had to actually talk to each other and I remember that brave new world advertised by a little blond girl on the Nevada Salt Flats talking about this thing coming called the World Wide Web. Within a year, I was fixing computers and learning this thing called HTML. Let's be honest, we didn't always communicate or "interact" much better before than we do now, least that's my take on it.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM

"Just to back-track, above is Will Fly's opening sentence from his first post. My reponse to this is: I don't care! I do not consider it my responsibility to attract young people (or anyone else for that matter) into 'the fold'. I'm not an evangelist and I dislike evangelism - for a start. If people - young or old - find their way to folk music, that's fine and I will welcome them - but that's where my responsibility stops. If the next generation allows the music to die out, that's their responsibility, not mine!"

Pure unadulterated selfishness. God help us all if this attitude were to prevail.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM

Went to the Scrag End club at Oakthorpe (Leics, UK) last Sunday night. Only a singers night, but there were two young lads there from the Lichfield / Tamworth area, a 13 year old piano accordion player, and a 14 year old fiddler.

The playing of both these youngsters made me sick - in as much that nobody should be allowed to play that well - unless it is me!!

When the accordion player did a solo, someone passed the comment "Move over, Andy Cutting". Absolutely ******* briliant!

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM

Social websites harm children's brains: Chilling warning to parents from top neuroscientist etc. etc. etc.

This whole article that was posted on the 3rd April by Andrez reminds me of similar controversy in the 60s over the impact of television.

The worst fears of the pundits do not seem to have been realised nor, I suspect, will the current fears. There is always such alarmist talk with any new technology.

Remember how mobile phones were going to fry our brains?

Geoff

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM

Tootler, I was thinking the same thing that you wrote on 10 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM .

I remember when there was lots of comments about the fast paced, mix and match segments "Sesame Street" approach to children's television programming as opposed to the much slower paced "Mr. Rogers Neighborhood" (my apologies to non-Americans who may not be familiar with these tv shows).

Did Sesame Street cause generations of people to have attention spans that were less than previous generations? I don't know enough to say. But at the very least I believe that that approach to programming either conformed the energy that was already "out there" or the energy that was waiting to be tapped or that fast paced/multiple changing segment approach "quickly" became the familiar and the expected and helped nurture a preference among generations from the late 1960s on for a lot of visual and audio stimulation occurring at the same time.

**

Sometimes I think that nowadays Life (with a capital "L") is faster paced than it was even in the 1960s. I'm a Mudcatter who doesn't really know "traditional music" as I think the term is defined in this thread. But if I use as an example a music that I know pretty well-R&B/soul music, sometimes I listen to music from the 1960s and the beat seems so sloooow to me. And if I think this, and I'm past middle aged, I can imagine how much of that music must sound to teens and young adults.

**

Will, you or someone else mentioned earlier in this discussion that just because folk clubs use the latest Internet technologies, it doesn't mean that young people will come to the clubs. I agree. The music has to be what that generations is "in to". Are there types of folk music which appeal to the "net generation? I think that might depend on "which net generation populations you're talking about and which kind of folk music (or traditional music (which may or may not be the same as the term "traditional music" that is used in this thread-though I absolutely do not want to get into definitions).

**

I've written on this forum before that I've read other people's opinions and I agree that African Americans have largely turned our backs on Blues and Jazz when that music ceased to be dance music, and became music you listen to. In the same way, I wonder if "the net generation" of teens and young adults you are referring to have been raised to expect and prefer dancing music rather than listening and even singing along music.

**
These are my comments as an admitted outsider to the culture/s and the music you are discussing. I'm not sure if what I wrote relates to your culture at all-but I' offer them respectfully. As always, I'm interested in any responses to these comments.

Subject: RE: Traditional music & the 'net generation'
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:39 PM

As a net user who's a bit long in the tooth and who's knocked around folk clubs for about five decades I find the comments interesting. I have two teenage daughters who've been involved in sessions and have attended two particular folk festivals (Nariel Creek and the National, in Canberra) for most of their lives; Andrez has probably (albeit unknowingly) met both of them. Both are prodigiously competent on their chosen instruments (piano and recorder) and both have ripped most of my CD collection onto their iPods.

Being studious, they don't have much time to spend organising bands or clubs and the local area is blessed with music outlets but not much in the way of folk clubs. But they are part of a fairly large circle of their peers, from all over SE Oz (and communicated, via SMS about the effects of the Victorian fires on some members), who are in groups and perform together; some (under the name Celtaclysmia) issued a CD (A cello named Bucket) at last year's National.

So, some youthful members of the net population are active in the way Will desires, but I'm not sure of their participation in clubs; most are keen on their high school and uni studies, where the pressure can be excessive.

Cheers, Rowan