Thought for the day: July 4th

Subject: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 06:49 AM

Why are prophets such pessimists?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: 1BORNFREE
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 11:24 AM


THE PRICE FOR FREEDOM IN AMERICA

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56
men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as
traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve
had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost
their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army,
another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or
hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed
and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and
their sacred honor. What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven
were merchants, nine were farmers and large
plantation owners; men of means, well educated.
But they signed the Declaration of Independence
knowing full well that the penalty would be death
if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and
trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the
British Navy. He sold his home and properties to
pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that
he was forced to move his family almost constantly.
He served in the Congress without pay, and his
family was kept in hiding. His possessions were
taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery,
Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge,
and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr.,
noted that the British General Cornwallis had
taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters.
He quietly urged General George Washington to
open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died
bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed.
The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few
months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she
was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives.
His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste.
For more than a year he lived in forests and caves,
returning home to find his wife dead and his children
vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion
and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered
similar fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American
Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing
ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and
education. They had security, but they valued liberty
more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they
pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with
firm reliance on the protection of the divine
providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our
lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

They gave you and me a free and independent America.
The history books never told you a lot of what
happened in the Revolutionary War. They didn't just
fight the British - they were British subjects at
that time and they fought their own government!

Are you one of the Americans who take these liberties
for granted? You shouldn't. Take a few minutes while
enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank
these TRUE PATRIOTS.

At a time when America needs more REAL HEROES like these,
it's not much to ask considering the sacrifices they made
and the price that these PATRIOTS paid for their freedom
and for the freedom of all future Americans.


PATRIOTS, I SALUTE YOU!
THANK YOU!
-Grace

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 12:10 PM

Tell me Grace, as your piece points out, they were citizens who fought their own government, do you consider doing the same thing today as patriotic? Just curious.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: gargoyle
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 02:23 PM

catspaw

And for what alleged tyrannies do you advocate the overthrow of your government in the name of patriotism?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Banjer
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 02:29 PM

Wellll.....I would consider it patriotic IF: Our government was doing something to severely impede our rights as guaranteed in the Constitution. If it was an uprising just for the sake of creating havoc, then I would consider it treason. Would YOU fight for your rights today?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: gargoyle
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 03:58 PM

aaahhhh.... precisely the point Banjer

IF they had been granted the rights of Englishmen there would not have been a revolution.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 04:40 PM

Wouldn't it be interesting to know what it would have been like if women had had an equal voice and acknowledged authority in the founding of our country? I know there were many who fought alongside their men ala Molly Pitcher and that a 16 yr. old Connecticut girl made a ride every bit as important and treacherous as Paul Revere's, but it is notable that the Constitution was signed only by men. Of course, that was the way of the world then.

Does anyone know if there is any country, in recent history, which was founded/or whatever with women involved equally in its founding? Just some thoughts....katlaughing

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 04:56 PM

Dear Katlaughing, I am not sure what you are asking about but in Iceland we had a woman as our presedent, we have three woman as MP, and many at the congress, If you any other questions please ask.

bless skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 03 Jul 99 - 05:08 PM

Too often lately our government has been fighting against people who were making their own struggles for independence, mostly for the benefit of US corporations.

--seed

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: gargoyle
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 05:43 AM

My dearest, and most righteous Mr.Seed.

The most recent instance I can imagine,in reference to your statement, is the government's antitrust hearings with the individual Bill Gates and the Microsoft corporation.

For this you would advocate the overthrow of the United States government?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Banjer
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 07:05 AM

Mr Gargoyle, I read Mr Seeds message to mean NOT fighting US Coroporations, but instead sending US troops to foreign countries to partake in struggles that should be left internal and of course each time we send masses of troop and material to foreign soil, who gains but the large US corporations that furnish all the supplies and eguipment?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Banjer
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 07:31 AM

HAPPY JULY 4TH!

However we choose to celebrate the day, going to a beach, gathering with others making music, traveling, or just sitting at home relaxing;
As we go about our various celebrations on the last Independence Day of this century, let us not forget the many sacrifices made for us by those who fought and gave so much so that we might have the right to choose how we celebrate this day. From the first colonists to our modern day military defending the Constitution of this Great Nation, Thanks to ALL!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 09:36 AM

A special day for all US citizens.
All the best
we look forward tour "Independence Day" shortly,
Thankfully without war or bloodshed.
Regards Ted

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 04:28 PM

Intersting interplay. Nice post Banj.

Garg my friend, I did not mention overthrow or revolution. Dissenting opinions have generally been at least "suspect" if not labeled unpatriotic. And many times this also falls along lines of party politics. My fear is that the trend is becoming stronger and beginning to prove Ellul to be correct.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: A Celtic Harper
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 05:50 PM

"Citizens fighting against their own government..." Going by Maury Klein's "Days of Defiance," that was decided by the American Civil War - "... no result of the war was more important than the destruction, once and for all...of the idea of secession. One nation, indivisible, with the hope of liberty and justice for all. Even the promise of those goals required the death of secession no less than that of slavery.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 06:19 PM

To light up your 4th (thru 9th), celebrate here.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 06:38 PM

Hmmm. interesting discussion.

I came here because of the freedom that we have here. We need to protect thart freedom at all times. Our constitution enables us to make chages without having to overthrow the government. If there are any peiple in power that we don't agree with we can vote them out.
I am currently engaged in a struggle with our local authorities, the technique that is appropriate for dealing with this situation is to wait them out. If it should becoume necessary to defend what I believe in, I will do so, using whatever means is appropriate at the time.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 06:52 PM

Yes, we can vote 'em out, Bert, if we can raise the money to raise our voices. Realistically, without real campaign finance reform, we can't vote 'em out; without the same access to media that corporations have we can't convince the people to vote the corporate whores out. And Gargoyle, if a banjo player could understand my previous post, even you--with careful attention and without an earlier determination to attack whatever I had to say--might have understood it. --seed (another banjo player, drooling away)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 09:02 PM

Well sheeihfar Bub, y'all are some right smart banjer players! Hey seed............Read much from Gerry Spence? I think you are soulmates.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 10:08 PM

'Spaw, I have his book How to Argue and Win Every Time, but I haven't yet read it. I probably should: I argue and lose every time; I get so stinkin' frustrated by my opponents' intractable ignorance that I start yelling (I'm speaking in general terms here, and not specifically of a sculptured composite beastie believed capable of scarin' awa' evil spirits)<[].-) (NOI).

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 10:25 PM

LMAO---can't hardly type!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Penny S
Date: 05 Jul 99 - 01:59 PM

It wouldn't have been any good going after the rights of ordinary, non-property owning Englishmen at all. Would they really have knuckled under if the taxation issue had been regularised?

Penny

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jul 99 - 08:37 PM

Hi, Skarpi, sorry my post wasn't all that clear. we have many women in governemnt, here, now. I was just wondering how it might have been different, at the time of America's revolution and signing of our Constitution, had women been equal citizens, then.

I applaud the fact that your country has a woman president. That is WONDERFUL!!! Thank you so much for responding, Skarpi.

Good wishes,

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Banjer
Date: 05 Jul 99 - 08:48 PM

Ya bet yer Bippie we's some right smart banjer players. Why wwe even know enough to check if we're one level ground or not an if'n we aint we can tell ya which side is low. Jist watch were the drool dribbles!! Now is that cultured or what?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 05 Jul 99 - 08:53 PM

Sometimes I drool secretly, often when thinking about certain autoharp players (notice the plural--I'm definitely a polygamic drooler). --seed

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jul 99 - 12:33 AM

Damn seed.......What a talent!!! Being an almost exclusively left side drooler (LSD)(?) I bow to your superior expertise.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Thought for the day: July 4th
From: Fadac
Date: 06 Jul 99 - 10:24 AM

this is a bit long. However a good friend sent it to me. So I pass it on. -FADAC

------

Happy July 4th to everyone!

Now, something appropriate and a little sobering on this 4th of July weekend, from friend of mine back east:

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine "july4.txt" 53 lines, 3266 characters $ more july4.txt Happy July 4th to everyone!

Now, something appropriate and a little sobering on this 4th of July weekend, from friend of mine back east:

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor". They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot of what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't just fight the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government! Some of us take these liberties so much for granted...We shouldn't. So, take a couple of minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.