BS: KKK/Tea Party Day

Subject: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 09:09 PM

Well, well, well...

looks as if a bunch of white people who didn't object one bit about paying taxes when George Bush was president have organized to make this day, tax day, their opportunity to show how much they hate President Obama...

Yep, 95% of all workers have just be given a tax decrease under Obama but, hey, lets not let fatcs interfere with their blatent hatred of Obama...

Beam my butt up, Scotty...

The rednecks are getting to be rather disgusting little hypocrits...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 09:28 PM

Little do they know that Dick Army, who had a big hand in pushing the hype about doing this "tea bag" day, is connected to AIG and others who got bailout money. Weird bedfellows (so to speak) considering the cultural slang meaning of "teabagging" as well. How clueless, in so many ways, these "protesters" are.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Janie
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM

What does the KKK have to do with it, Bobert?   

There are certainly a bunch of "conservatives" in my town doing this tea party thing, but I know several of them, and those that I know are not reactionary racists. (Not saying there are none involved in this endeaver, just saying those that I know are not.) While there are a healthy dose of neo-cons among them, those that I know tend toward a libertarian philosophy. I don't agree with them, but I support their right to do this, and respect their activism in favor of their philosophy, even though I do not share their view.

I don't think it wise or helpful to diss everyone whose political views differ from my own, or to stick inflamatory labels on them in the absence of information to suggest this "tea party" protest is headed up by groups such as the KKK. Perhaps that is not what you are doing. Perhaps you have read or seen news reports that indicate this protest is in fact being organized by the KKK?

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Janie
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 09:47 PM

I'm playing devil's advocate here. Dick Army (disclaimer - I don't follow the ins and outs of all this stuff closely and don't know anything about him), may be closely involved and connected to AIG, etc., because it is consistent with his socio-political philosophy. That may be based on greed and narcissism, but I don't know that. What I do know is that demonizing people doesn't change them. In fact, at a minimum, it fosters resistance and is most likely to foster defensive self-righteousness. There really are pros and cons to these issues. Validate the legitimacy of the opposition's concerns, and one just might foster positive possibilities. The Bushites had an attitude of "my way or the highway." I do not think liberals and moderates will be any more successful at winning hearts, minds, or votes by adopting the same attitudes.

Imho, "us against them" is less likely to be effective than looking for common ground and respecting valid differences.

None of us has a corner on the market of truth or reality.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 09:47 PM

ANYONE who does not agree with Bobert must be either KKK or mentally deficient- just ask him...





Thousands rally with 'tea parties' on tax day

AP - Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:25:05 PM
By JOE BIESK

AP Whipped up by conservative commentators and bloggers, tens of thousands of protesters staged "tea parties" around the country Wednesday to tap into the collective angst stirred up by a bad economy, government spending and bailouts. The rallies were directed at President Barack Obama's new administration on a symbolic day: the deadline to file income taxes. Protesters even threw what appeared to be a box of tea bags toward the White House, causing a brief lockdown at the compound.

Shouts rang out from Kentucky, which just passed tax increases on cigarettes and alcohol, to Salt Lake City, where many in the crowd booed Republican Gov. Jon Huntsman for accepting about $1.5 billion in stimulus money. Even in Alaska, where there is no statewide income tax or sales tax, hundreds of people held signs and chanted "No more spending."

"Frankly, I'm mad as hell," said businessman Doug Burnett at a rally at the Iowa Capitol, where many of the about 1,000 people wore red shirts declaring "revolution is brewing." Burnett added: "This country has been on a spending spree for decades, a spending spree we can't afford."

In Boston, a few hundred protesters gathered on the Boston Common -- a short distance from the original Tea Party -- some dressed in Revolutionary garb and carrying signs that said "Barney Frank, Bernie Madoff: And the Difference Is?" and "D.C.: District of Communism."

Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up a tea party at Austin City Hall with his stance against the federal government, as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!"

In Atlanta, thousands of people gathered outside the Capitol, where Fox News Channel conservative pundit Sean Hannity was set to broadcast his show Wednesday night. One protester's sign read: "Hey Obama you can keep the change."

Julie Reeves, of Covington, brought her Chihuahua Arnie, who wore a tiny anti-IRS T-shirt. "I want the government to get its hand the hell out of my wallet," Reeves said.

The tea parties were promoted by FreedomWorks, a conservative nonprofit advocacy group based in Washington and led by former Republican House Majority Leader Dick Armey of Texas, who is now a lobbyist.

Organizers said the movement developed organically through online social networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter and through exposure on Fox News.

While FreedomWorks insisted the rallies were nonpartisan, they have been seized on by many prominent Republicans who view them as a promising way for the party to reclaim its momentum.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\Top-Headlines\20090416\Tax-Day-Protests.xml&cat=topheadlines&subcat=&pageid=

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: pdq
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 09:48 PM

"I don't think it wise or helpful to diss everyone whose political views differ from my own..." ~ Janie

We need more of that attitude. Mudcat seems to have mostly "search and destroy" types posting right now.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 09:59 PM

Let's say that one million people demonstrated over the whole US.

Now let's work the percentages:

1,000,000/303,000,000 = 0.33%.

And I feel that same way about ANY demonstration.....

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: pdq
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:05 PM

"...95% of all workers have just be given a tax decrease under Obama but..." ~ Bobert

That statement is presented as fact? Please find some evidence to support it.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:09 PM

WSJ editorial page column puts out the idea that the "tea parties" herald a new political party--the Republicans are seen as a feeble alternative to Obama.

The rest of us should rejoice--unless we have something against the opposition dividing itself on purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:16 PM

SPONTANEOUS UPRISING?: Although spokesmen of the tea parties have made significant efforts to portray the protests as organic uprisings of like-minded citizens, corporate lobbyists have engineered much of the planning and execution of the events. The corporate front group FreedomWorks, run by lobbyist and former House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX), had its staff organize the very first tea party on Feb. 27 in Tampa, FL, following CNBC's Rick Santelli's call for a Boston Tea Party-like upheaval to protest Obama's housing plan. Soon after, FreedomWorks began planning nationwide tea party protests and had their operatives help coordinate logistics, call conservative activists, and provide activists with everything from organizing tips to sign ideas. Americans for Prosperity, a front group run by corporate lobbyist Tim Phillips (a former partner to Ralph Reed), assisted with the effort, drawing upon its extensive field staff to plan events, write press releases, and distribute talking points for people on the ground. Newt Gingrich's American Solutions for Winning the Future -- which is funded by polluters and helped orchestrated the "Drill Here, Drill Now" campaign last summer -- has also signed on to support the protests.

FOX NEWS MEGAPHONE: Both Fox News and Fox Business have run back-to-back promotions explicitly encouraging viewers to attend the tea parties. The Fox broadcasts are in turn being used by the tea party organizers to promote their protests. Promising "fair and balanced" coverage, Fox News hosts such as Glenn Beck, Neil Cavuto, and Sean Hannity are all planning to broadcast live from the events. The segments for the tea parties are replete with enthusiastic endorsements, like the recent announcement of one Fox pundit that it's "time to party like it's 1773!" In their drive to promote the protests, Fox is fueling paranoia by making unsubstantiated, conspiratorial claims that the Obama administration may send "spies" to the tea parties. Another claim Fox asserts to justify its nonstop promotional coverage is that the network provided similar coverage for the Million Man March in 1995. However, Fox News didn't launch until 1996. 

A POLITICAL STRATEGY: Congressional Republicans have fully embraced the tea parties as a channel for opposing Obama. House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) is speaking at a tea party in Bakersfield; Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) will be speaking at an Americans for Prosperity tea party in Madison. Over 35 other Republican lawmakers have been invited to speak at other tea party rallies. Republican governors who opposed the economic stimulus package -- such as Rick Perry of Texas and Mark Sanford of South Carolina -- plan to address tea party protests in their own states. Even after being rebuked by organizers of the tea parties, Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele has moved the RNC to officially support the protests. If the GOP's effort to brand and own the protests weren't already apparent, Sen. David Vitter (R-LA) introduced legislation formally honoring April 15th as "National Tea Party Day." "It's going to be more directed at Obama," observed Daily Beast reporter Ana Marie Cox on the Republican Party's obsession with the tea parties. "This is very much, I think, part of the midterm strategy."

THE UNIFYING MESSAGE -- OPPOSE OBAMA: Despite steady, high approval ratings for President Obama, the proponents of the tea parties seem intent on demonizing him as the cause of the country's problems. The ostensible anti-tax platform of the tea parties in fact has not resonated with all the participants. The events have drawn various elements of the fringe right-wing movement, with gun rights militias, secessionists, radical anti-immigrant organizations, and neo-Nazi groups currently working to contribute to the organizing effort, bringing with them their own pet issues. Past tea parties have featured gatherings of people inspired to protest Obama over conspiracies related to the President's birth certificate. One of the most prominent Obama birth certificate conspiracy theorists, Alan Keyes, is the keynote speaker of the Washington, D.C. tea party today.(Progressive)

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Janie
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:19 PM

I was not wildly enthusiastic about Obama (or any other major candidate,). but I am really wowed by what I have seen of him so far. He is not so interested in "positions" as in figuring out "what works" for the greater good.

My impression is his administration is listening to the concerns of those involved and appreciating them as valid. I think he sees his task to be to balance and weigh the needs of individuals and the needs of the larger system, and try to come to a synthesis of what is most effective over-all. A hard task, and not one that is "position" oriented.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:53 PM

I wonder how many Democrats and poor people showed up at these tea parties. Every report I have seen shows that the primary issue of these people is that they are not currently in the majority and in control.

It would seem that their idea of change is "less cost for me," also known as "My ass is inboard, to hell with you." Another point I heard quoted is that they were for eliminating any and all parts of the social contract. After all, to them anything that government does for people, including public education, is socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 11:02 PM

Well, they were out blocking one of the main roads this evening. In addition to the anti-Obama, anti-IRS and flat tax signs, I saw anti-immigration, anti-gun control, Jesus saves, anti-bail out, pro-Iraq war, pro-oil drilling, anti-pork (vegetarians?) and other such signs. About half of them seemed to be commercially produced. We also saw one very small sign that said "I still like Obama".

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: number 6
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 11:07 PM

I'd be pissed off if my $$taxes$$ were going for the war machine, wall street bailouts, uncontrolled pork barrel spending, and most of all if the secretary of the treasury knowingly tried getting away without paying taxes .... all this tax spending and little is benefitting the working guy/gal.

People have a right to be angry over this ... sure some right wing nuts might be blowing the trumpets in this rebellion ... but a lot of working class stiffs are angry, frustrated and hurting right now ... and these are the people out there raising their fists.

face it ... the change in the white house is is not getting out to the populace ... and time is running out.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Janie
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 11:22 PM

Bruce and pdq,

You can point a finger, or you can lead the way. (And so could others.) My comments were not intended to invite finger pointing. Let me invite you, others, and myself, regardless of our sociopolitical perspectives, to reflect on our personal contributions to informative discussion and ineffective discord.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 12:18 AM

But the change in the White House is getting out to the populace, in the form of tax cuts. And if he gets his health care plan through Congress, it will have a profoundly beneficial effect on the lives of many millions of people (me included).

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:03 AM

The "cutting" of the defense budget from 704 billion last year to this year's 713 billion is also causing a "spontaneous" outrage.
as you say never mind the 'fcats'.

Yes the signs are commercially produced by FOX in association with their 9-12 project, tea party and million man march to come.

The attempt by FOX to create vehicles for dissent is probably funded with some TARP money if you looked close enough. So far the participants seem rather cartoonish.

All in all I belive it helped the price of tea stocks.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:06 AM

People do get the whole idea that this country has been ENRONIZED to the point of total bankruptcy.

WHat needs to be done is keep reminding them about the ENRONIZATION instead of being distracted by bogus tea bagging hype.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:57 AM

Since January the Secret Service has logged more death threats to the President than all previous Presidents combined.

Thats the Republican party of God for ya.

I suppose it is a matter of when and not if an attempt is made by groups that would openly claim FOX news commentators and talk radio personalities and GOd as their motivation to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 08:19 AM

The KKK reference was not meant to be literal but figurative... I remember back after the 2000 election being purdy pissed off at how I thought the election had been conducted but when Bush was innagurated I was thinkin', "Oh well, can't do much to change the election now... Better or worse, he the president... At least Cheney will be there to keep things controlled..." (lol, rmember folks thinkin' that???)

The point is that there wasn't the hatred, even by those of us on the far left, that we are seeing today... I had a feller on another website make the announcement that the Obama administration was "the most secretive administartion in the history of the country" just 2 days after Obama took office?!?!?!?....

Now one couldn't possibly be able to reach that conclusion after just two day in office unless they were filled with contempt (hate) of Obama...

So when I used the KKK in the title of the thread I meant it to imply the "hatred" that is the cornerstone of the Klan mindset...

I saw some very hatefull signs at these rallies last night on CNN that had little to do with tax policies but everything to do with hatred...

So, again... The KKK in the title is figurative...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 10:11 AM

"I don't think it wise or helpful to diss everyone whose political views differ from my own..." ~ Janie

We need more of that attitude. Mudcat seems to have mostly "search and destroy" types posting right now.

Two words, PeeDee: Karl Rove.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 10:14 AM

"n my opinion, however, the remarkable fact is that there were no significant tax protests in the U.S. between the 1790s and the 1970s. In fact, as recently as the 1970s the federal income tax was considered the fairest tax, at a time when the top rate was over 70 percent.

Starting with the election of Ronald Reagan, conservatives have led an effort to vilify the income tax — which is reflected in the polls. However, what is often forgotten is that Reagan raised taxes twice (in 1982 and in 1986 on corporations). The modern Republican tax protest movement really only took off after George Bush Sr. broke his "no new taxes" pledge in 1991 and lost his re-election bid in 1992 (for unrelated reasons). Subsequently it became hard for Republicans to raise taxes even in the face of two unexpected wars and a huge budget deficit.

The current wave of tax protests are a reflection of this post-1992 Republican mentality. They are engineered by political operatives and are far from reflective of general public attitudes toward taxes or toward the government." (NYT)

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 10:30 AM

"The point is that there wasn't the hatred, even by those of us on the far left, that we are seeing today..."

Oh? I seem to recall as much if not more.



As for printed signs and organization, I recall a lot of that in the Pro-Saddam marches prior to March of 2003. But I guess they are OK if they are for something Bobert and Amos supports, and only wrong when supporting something they have declared to be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 10:38 AM

One of the things that cracks me up over this protest is the symbolism they chose. Another example of conservatives choosing fluff over substance, projecting their own bias on the symbol instead of what it really was.

The Boston Tea Party, if fact, was in fact an act of vandalism against the world's largest retailer. If you were going to recreate it today, you would go into Walmart and pull all the Chinese made goods off the shelf and throw them into the river.

Where were these bastards when their heroes were putting us into this mess? You have a man here who is thinking his way through this, taking the tough steps needed to begin the healing process, and these numbskulls forget all about the fact that their heroes abetted the criminals in stealing or destroying 40 to 60% of their retirement savings.

As to the "patriots" who talk secession, it appears that they only believe in democracy and the American way when it goes their way. But when the public votes against them, their first response is secession, and wishing failure upon their constitutionally elected President. That is not the America I love and fought for in war, and in the streets, and workplaces.

Mick .... sick to death of slogan slinging idiots who vote and rail against things of the basis of their own prejudices/biases.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:59 PM

"Pro-Saddam marches"

evidence? ...

or are you getting confused with the anti war marches?

Only Americans I can think of who might have been pro saddam were those who might have profited by his tenure or who might have seeen him as a useful ally against Iran.

Neither category seems likely to have enough numbers to organize a noticeable march ...

... presumably these happened around the same time as the marches "against Israel" theat you mentioned in a different thread.


In your view BB the world is populated by people marching against Israel and in favour of Israels enemies.


A further classic portrayal of a "siege mentality".

And what does it have to do with taxes?

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 02:20 PM

In case you have comprehension problems, let me repeat:

"As for printed signs and organization,"

The pro-Saddam aspect of the so-called "anti-war" marchers was shown by their refusal to have those Iraqis who were protesting Saddam to be allowed to join them. I posted the article years ago, giving the names, place, and dates ( London, I think).

Since they did NOT tell Saddam to comply, ( and avoid war) it is obvious they were NOT anti-war, just anti-US action.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 03:08 PM

Sometimes I don't hold much hope for this part of Colorado. Here are a few choice quotes from today's newspaper article on this, both elected officials supposedly with college degrees (must've missed English grammar):

You are just real people, and you look to be real mad," Mesa County Commissioner Janet Rowland told a boisterous crowd.

On what is normally a dour day for those people scrambling to file their taxes before the midnight deadline, Mesa County Commissioner Craig Meis said, "This is the happiest I've ever been on April 15. The silent majority has officially woke up."

Most protesters had anti-Obama signs. It looks ugly and it looks racist and fearful.

I agree with much of what Janie has said, but wonder at how we can go about reaching out when people are this worked up.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 04:47 PM

These demonstrations will have the same effect as similar ones in recent years, i.e, none to speak of.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 06:07 PM

Did ANYONE see the Rachael Maddow show last night? She had Ana Marie Cox on, who had attended one 'rally', and showed a number of signs which WERE racist and hateful in the manner of the KKK. I doubt the KKK actually was involved at all, but folks who thought like them were sure around.
The majority were just 'conservatives' looking for a message, but that minority gave me the chills.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 06:46 PM

"Since they did NOT tell Saddam to comply, ( and avoid war) it is obvious they were NOT anti-war, just anti-US action."

Anti US action = pro Saddam?

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 08:01 PM

Thank you, Bill, for your post...

Yeah, it was the signs that these folks were carrying that really got my attention:

"Hey, Big Brother: Show Us your Real Birth Certificate"

"Don't Tax Me, Bro"

"The Audacity of a Dope"

"Napolitano- Obama's Gestapo Queen"

"Hang 'Em High Traitors"

"Obama bin Lyin'"

"Thank you, Fox News"

"Obama, You Idiot"

These are just a few that were reported in the Post this morning... Like I've said, I gave George Bush a thousand more time respect (prior to Iraq) than these folks are giving Obama... These folks are eat up with hatred...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 11:35 PM

Very funny video about the use of the term "teabagging"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F26vC_1_8xw

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Janie
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 11:35 PM

It is frightening, Bill, to see that minority in action. Especially when one realizes that viseral, irrational hatred is nearly untouchable.

It is wrong-headed, in my very humble opinion, to take a default position that anyone who is anti-Obama is racist and full of racist hate. A strident and dangerous minority of those who oppose Obama do so on racist grounds. But many others oppose his policies because of differences in sociopolitical philosophy.

Confront the hatred rationally, as best one can. Contain and marginalize the clearly racist motivated opposition to a president because he is a person of color. But also acknowledge valid differences in sociopolitical philosophy. Do not feed into the opportunities for white supremists and blatant racists to form coalitions with conservatives. Acknowledge the right of conservatives to a legitimate dessenting view. Do not lump them in with those whom clearly must be marginalized. They will be much more likely to distance themselves from this hate-filled minority if they are not discounted and marginalized themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 07:19 AM

I acknowledge the right of folks to disagree with Obama's tax policies... I guess what bugs me, Jnaie, is that there are alot of ever ignorant people who continue to be led like sheep by the monied class who in allowing themselves to be duped into these sorts of demonstartions are working against their own best interests... That is sickening...

What else is sickening is that Fox News be allowed to use the public airwaves (which are owned by all of us) to take a froward role in ***making*** news... That isn't what the public airwaves is supposed to beall about... This demonstartion wouldn't have been squat had it not been for Fox News' promotion... Not only that but one of their folks even spoke at one of the rallies... It can be argued that Keith Overman gives the progressive's side of issue by MSNBC isn't out there organizing and promoting hatefilled demonstartions...

We are never going to to get anywhere with these hate-consumed people as long as they continue to be propagandized with misinformation by Fox News... I'd just like to see the FCC hold Fox accountable for their actions 'cuase the 1st rule in journalism is "Don't make the news"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 08:44 AM

It surprises me that more folks apparently are unaware of the substantial undercurrent of white supremacist groups in the U.S.-
We have met the terrorists, and they is us, so to speak.

Check it out

HERE

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 06:32 PM

Well, and I should probably say, Bobert, that I get all of my news from either NPR or the print media (both paper and on-line,) and while I listen every day, read the N&O and check the CNN.com headlines, I'm not an extremely close follower of the news. Since I don't have a television, and haven't had one for the better part of 30 years, I don't see the viseral images that may serve to "bring home" the realities of much of the news, and don't appreciate the impact television has on shaping the news.

Greg, I think you are probably right. I am certainly aware that these groups are out there, but I think I underestimate the numbers of these extremists who are willing to act, and not just spew verbiage, (which is certainly bad enough.)

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 07:26 PM

I gotta an extra TV, Janie... Awww, just funnin' wid ya'... I'm sure you are better off without one... Purdy disturbing stuff on there... And almost all of it is negative... If it bleeds, it leads...

But I also remember the Greensboro masecure of the 70's when Klansmen open fired on a peacefull demonstration... That wasn't all that long ago and when you take "The Noose" incident of a couple years ago I am not all that confident that lots of these folks are ripe for their brand of jihad right here in the US of A...

And when a major network is allowed to whip racists into a frenzy then I am double concerned, especially when we have a black president... Someone needs to say to Fox in no uncertain terms that promoting hate is against the law and that the FCC can pull the plug...

Fox is right on the borderline of practicing treason...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 08:06 PM

On the other-hand, bring it out in the sunshine, where these attitudes can be respectfully confronted. Back in the late '80's the KKK obtained a permit and held a well-publized march in Hillsborough. They were vastly outnumbered by the many, many citizens who turned out to bear peacable witness against the Klan. The Klan members ended up feeling embarrassed in front of their neighbors, and the like has never happened again.

Hillsborough and Orange County did itself proud that day.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Claymore
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 08:14 PM

Jamie, you may not necessarily underestimate them.

Back when I was a cop working on a KKK case (Roy Frankhouser, Mark Bablin, & Leroy Fick) I had series of "sidebar arguments" with Morris Dees, the head of the Southern poverty Law Center, and later members of his staff. He was publishing hysterical and wrong "facts" about Klan activity in PA. I had spent two years nailing these folks, and his information was plain wrong. I pointed out that I had all the names of the groups operating out of Reading, PA, and that many of these groups had the exact same membership, just with a different name. Thus the White Socialist Workers Party (Frankhousers group) was the same group as the Peanut Militia (named for a bar in Reading) and the Christian Identity Movement (an attempt to get into the prisons under the guise of religion). Dees was not happy that, when I pointed out the evidence that these groups used the same barrel of weapons, dug up for each meeting and that half of them were members in these groups to buff up their CI creds either for the FBI or the ATF. The ATF and FBI agents could show they were on the case by disclosing ("disclosures for investigative purposes") their informant disbursements, the CIs got a six-pack or two, and Dees got to proclaim the fight against racism and for fundraising. The ATF actually sent Roy up to Toronto in the late 70s to inform on Black September. (If you don't know about Black September you need to move to another thread before your brain explodes). He brought back a tape of some Arab waiters in a political discussion.

Please understand that Morris and his folks did yeoman service in lawsuits against serious hate groups, bankrupting them in the process, but the map of the US hate groups is a hoot. Roy got five years after I convinced the two others to testify against Roy, and later Lyndon LaRouche (who got five years). When he got out he began hosting a cable access show, the White Forum, and two years ago, he sued to be allowed to hold a Klan rally at Artillery Week in Antietim (a local event at the Battlefield using old cannons from the Civil War). He had all of five people at the rally, and left in a huff when I called out to him to take out his glass eye and he recognized me. Dees does not return my calls…

As for the other comments, it is another hoot to go back about three years and read about the subversive leftists who were doing the exact same thing under names like MoveOn and Kos. I was pointing out to a friend of mine at DCs Friday Night Open Band that the reason(s) that Obama is not about to attempt in any way to further any investigation about anything to do with any "interrogation memos", and in fact has gone ahead and signed off on FISA and NSA "findings" are contrary to the perceptions of both groups of "wing-nuts".

1. He is not a fool and knows that the idiocy of the Church hearings in the late 70s allowed terrorist groups to flourish, and Carters nomination of Stansfield Turner to the CIA, and the resulting "Debacle in the Desert" would doom his presidency and the Democrat Party for generations.

2. He has the presidency and must now protect the Nation, and not the ideologues of the Democrat Party.

3. He is a student of history and has probably read "Shadow" by Bob Woodward and its premise that Democrats create political monsters such as "Special Prosecutors", which come back to haunt them because Republicans, once bitten, get better at biting. This is generally true for "Borking", Political Action Committees, filibusters, Senate "holds", and the terrible, previously-Democrat-tactics sanctimoniously proscribed by those suffering short-term memory loss (see above).

4. He knows that the last disgruntled ex-military person to commit mass murders was a black dude named Mohammed...

5. One of his staff has read my homemade bumper sticker "What Would Jack Bauer Do," and Obama (see #1) is not an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 08:39 PM

Interesting post, Claymore...

It would appear that you have some level of respect for Obama's pragmatism and intellegence... Me, too... Hey, I might not agree with it all but I do respect his thought processes in general...

Think he's let Cheney and Co. off the the hook too easily but...

And, Janie... Yeah, I can see yer point... Dumbasses are best seen in the day of light...

Sho nuff saw 'nuff of them last night on CNN doing their tea party thing...

BTW, what occured yesterday had absolutley nothing in common with the Boston Tea Party... Something about having an elected governemnt kinda thows those arguemnts out the window...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: open mike
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM

for those who cannot load videos, and those who are unfamiliar with the term, could someone please define tea bagging? thanks...

and wasn't the main point of the 1773 tea party to protest taxation without representation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article6115109.ece

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 09:43 PM

I don't know if this thread drift, or a natural evolution of the discussion....

Having worked in the public sector all of my adult life in programs and agencies that (quite properly) have strict legal constrictions on the information they can release to protect the privacy and confidentiality of recipients of assorted publicly funded human and social services, I have read many a news story that was inaccurate, in part, but only in part, because only one side of the "story" was available to the news media. The news media, however, is very aware that social service agencies are very restricted in the information they can release, and is therefore aware they are only getting part of the "story." That could be put across in reporting in more clear terms than "citing privacy restrictions, the Dept. of Social Services had no comment." The amount of knowing spin reporters put on such stories has always dismayed me, and leads me to a basic scepticism about most reported news. Reporters of generally reputable news sources put the spin to it because it makes good copy and sells newspapers. Quoted "experts" put their spin on it in order to influence public opinion toward their particular cause or perspective. News media know this, but often fail to make this apparent in their reporting. NPR seems to me to do a much better job at providing objective coverage than any other news outlet in the country, but they certainly do not do a perfectly objective job.

One reason I do not follow the news extremely closely is because of my perception that there is little news that is reported in an objective manner. I do not have the time or the interest to closely read or follow a number of different news sources with different biases to try to separate the facts from the spin, and must rely on my own wit and discernment. So I take most of what I read or listen to with a grain of salt, always wondering where the "truth" lies, and always trying to be mindful of how my own philosophical leanings or emotional reactions might color how I interpret the news that I take in.

Claymore's post tends to confirm for me the need to be skeptical of all that I read that is reported as news, or reported as expert opinion.    I have a lot of respect for the work of the Southern Poverty Law Center. Claymore, if you had not given Dees and the Center their due for the effective work they have done, I would tend to discount your other comments about Dees, because it would not fit in with my own biases. Thanks for sharing your experience, knowledge and perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 11:25 PM

teabagging

The video I posted is a satirical look at how a teabagging organizer might deal with the awareness of what the term means.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 11:35 PM

I'll one-up you Janie: On the handful (less than a handful) of incidents where I knew the facts underlying a news story, I was amazed at their (mainstream newspapers) inability to accurately report the facts, before any bias is added to that. I still am a news junkie, but from the perpective a whodunnit reader, faced with unreliable narration.

(I met Morris Dees briefly after a speech, once. Brave man.)

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: GUEST,The Authority
Date: 18 Apr 09 - 12:49 AM

We got our eye's and ears on these FOX Monsters. LET THEM SAY THE WRONG WORDS and they will be in the lockup.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Claymore
Date: 18 Apr 09 - 01:49 AM

Janie, My father used to say that "Both sides lie; your job is to figure out who... I make a point to read two papers a day, usually the Washington Post and the Washington Times. Before the Times it was the Evening Star. I do not listen to radio because both the music and the talk shows are just.....noise. I do watch politics including MSNBC, CNN, Fox, and the old majors, CBS, NBC and ABC. I enjoy myself by trying to figure out as the news cycle evolves who is going to "flog" the story, and who is going to rein it in? This execise can usually be guided by the principle of Whose Ox is Gored?, and Ockhams Razor.

The next paragraph is utter BS written to put a shot through the spanker sail of certain writers above.

Even amateur philosophers should know that I am referring to a reduction of William's writings that in the original was, as my studies in philosophy instructed me, "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem," roughly translated as "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity." And "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate," which states "plurality should not be posited without necessity." This is all to say, when multiple competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, select the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities.

To cut through the BS; when faced with a set of multiple choices, the most obvious choice is usually the best.

But I digress. If you or Bobert really want to get to know the KKK, may I suggest that you get a copy of "The Turner Diaries" written in 1978 under the pseudonym of Andrew MacDonald, but was really written by William Pierce. I had my own copy when McVeigh blew up the Murtagh building, which I had seized in the arrest of Frankhouser in 86. When the news broke I faxed a copy of the "entry" of Oct. 13, 1991 (note: 13 years ahead on the diary and 17 years ahead of the explosion in 95). It detailed exactly how a small group of white supremacists, including the fictional Earl Turner blows up the FBI building in Washington DC at 9:15 AM with a bomb made of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. It is tough reading with graphic hangings of women who have slept with blacks while the "Order" goes after the ZOG (Zionist Occupied Government). During Frankhousers trial, one of the AUSAs and I had hats made that said "Special Agent, ZOG."

(I've just had a bout of cranial flatulence and googled the Diaries. It sells for $4.95 at Discount Books). Ye Gods, and some gimbal-headed twits are worried about tea parties…

And finally GUEST:heric: When I was the PIO for the Loudoun County Sheriffs Department, I went to Richmond to testify against a bill opening more police data to the press. When I was introduced as Sgt Donald Moore, I began my statements, pointing out that the LaRouche folks had invaded our county and some of them were parading around as "reporters." We had just concluded a raid on several of their offices, based on a grand jury investigation (using my warrent; I was the PIO while waitng for the trials to begin). I stated several objections and then pointed out that anyone could style himself a "reporter". I then held up a LaRouche Paper whose headline read "Rabid Grand Jury Psychopaths Indict LaRouche," and in a room full of reporters, I finshed with "Unfortunately many people believe what they read in the newspapers." The rueful laughter was tempered only by the story about the hearings in the Viginia Newspaper Trade publication that listed my name as "Sgt. Donna Mo."

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 09 - 03:43 PM

The next paragraph is utter BS...

Ya sure it isn't ALL the paragraphs, Landmine? You do have a well-established history as an unrepentant Serial Bullshitter.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Apr 09 - 12:38 PM

It was an anti-Obama rally. Racism was there.

The Boston Tea Party has been misunderstood by historians. Thom Hartmann clarified what it was. The East India Tea Company had a monopoly and was forcing local businesses out.
The stock holders included King George.

The rebellion was because of the rights of the local businesses to survive.

"Taxation without representation" was not the real cause. It was corporate monopoly.

The use of the Tea Party to rebel against Obama doesn't quite fit the analogy. Tax cuts
do nothing to keep corporations from bilking the public. If anything, it protects their coffers.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 09 - 02:31 PM

I'd love to comment on Tea Party day but I think the title of the thread pollutes it by coupling it with KKK/ which is rather stupid, since it is precisely the same tactic as the very thing it seeks to expose.

Subject: RE: BS: KKK/Tea Party Day
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 09 - 02:42 PM

This one's hilarious (and like "teabagging" is also based on an actual campaign)...

2M4M 4EVER!