When NOT to sing

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: skipy
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 06:54 PM

When not to sing?
Perhaps in any venue where everyone is better than you & can't wait to point out the fact that they are! e.g. anywhere where "folkies" gather!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 08:54 PM

Azizi

it seems that Americans (from the USA and from Canada?) are more open to people singing along with a performer at more "informal" concerts than are people from the UK. Is that a fair statement?

No it isn't. It should be born in mind that Jim lives in the Republic of Ireland which is not only a separate nation but is culturally different from the UK. Linda is actively involved in the UK folk scene as, in fact, am I whereas Jim rarely goes to UK clubs and gains most of his information at second hand, quite a lot of it by a highly selective reading of Mudcat posts filtered through his own prejudices.

I wouldn't bother were it not for two things. First, I believe that folk clubs and associated sessions and singarounds represent the core of what English folk music is now about (I'll leave others to speak for Scotland, Ireland and Wales) so it hurts me when a strange unholy alliance between Sinister Supository on one hand and Jim on the other seem determined to destroy its reputation and undermine the work of the many folk club organisers who give up their time purely for the love of the music. Second, Jim is a significant figure in the British folk revival. We would all be the poorer without the work he has done with the travellers and with Walter Pardon, whose songs I hear on a weekly basis. It is desperately sad to see him so blinded by his own intransigent attitude to all the good music that is going on these days.

Earlier CupOfTea said "Hush up and listen to this hair raising ballad--sing along on this old chestnut everyone knows".

I've just come away from an excellent evening where both of those happened from one performer. Everybody sat transfixed by the ballad and then joined in the "old chestnut".

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 10:05 PM

As Marje has pointed out, there's no catch-all rule which governs this--except common sense and courtesy.

I'd certainly agree that in the US the general feeling is to encourage, not discourage, community singing.   Of course we do want to avoid falling into the dread Blue Book syndrome ("Rise Up Singing"), in which every listener insists on singing every word out of the same book as the leader. To try to strike a balance, many of us just tell the others in the room what we intend. I try to pick almost entirely songs with good choruses, which I expect and invite the audience to sing. I do not expect and invite the audience to sing the verses. I think that is reasonable. If they do, I live with it, and don't complain. But for me, neither the "Blue Book" approach nor the book itself is acceptable. Of course we've beaten that issue to death already on Mudcat.

But, as Jacqui has noted, there is a strong desire to sing on a song you know.   I figure singing on the chorus should satisfy this. (That's all I expect to be able to do as a listener.) Or on a ballad, the audience will sing on the refrain.   If there is no chorus or refrain you are living dangerously--unless the audience knows this in advance, you are advised to not sing two songs of this sort in a row. The group will sing if given a chance, and unless you tell them in advance not to, it is eminently reasonable they would do so.

It is in fact up to the performer to set the guidelines out in advance--or not complain when the result is not to his or her liking.   At FSGW events even the paid performers know this, and often invite us to sing along.   Even if they don't, we will sing the chorus, and probably harmonize. As Mick has pointed out, our contributions are often very appreciated., since we do know how harmony works.   I sometimes think we latch on to the simplest harmony too fast--and it's not always the best.   But you can't fight it.

Part of the reason we sing so much at concerts is that it is self-selection---that is in fact one of the main reasons some of us come to concerts.   If we were discouraged from singing, some might well not attend. And there are often people in the audience who have been on CD's, have their own groups, etc. And love to blend with other voices.

Another element might be that this area (DC area) is a hotbed of singing. I could name 5 excellent 150 voice-plus choruses.   Lots of bluegrass. Sea chantey groups. Balkan. Sacred Harp.   All sorts of duos, trios etc. A lot of us are passionate about singing.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 May 09 - 02:34 AM

Surreysinger: "I had an experience some months ago of standing up to present a serious and sad ballad, and had got half way through it... arriving at a very emotional point I was suddenly beset by what I can only describe as a strident mooing from the front row. One of the audience had decided to join in with me . Firstly, it threw me, and I promptly forgot my next line; secondly, it ruined the mood for me and chucked me out of the song (so to speak), and I spent the next three verses listening to the lowing and mooing getting noisier. It added nothing to my presentation,"

This made me laugh! I know the exact sound you mean, well I think near enough! Though not from life experience, only from having seen recordings of Folk performances and wondering "what on earth's that weird echoing rumble?" - "Ah!" realises I, as it gradually builds momentum, "it's members of the audience joining in.."
Genuinely, it sounded like a feild of sheep being herded (sans bleating, mostly). Horrible.

As far as others joining in when I'm singing, can't say I've noticed it happening much thus far. Thouhg I think it would depend on the type of song and how much thought I'd tried to put into such things as timing, ornamentation and phrasing as to whether it spoiled my own delivery. I do think I could get put off of a tragic ballad in particular if someone decided to join in.

As a *listener*, having heard some very fine 'light' singing, with beautifully delicate ornamentation, there are also times when others joining in someone else's singing would make me feel very unhappy. I love to hear the delicate artistry in a solo voice, and that would be lost with multiple joiners in. Also as a listener, I wouldn't join in for the most part, unless invited, or everyone else was already doing so. Though it also might depend on how intimately I personally knew the singer and their own rendition of the song in question. I did hear a performance of a song recently where the carefully crafted (and very important to the delivery of the song) timing was unfortunatly regularised by another member joining in and unwittingly controlling the tempo. So sensitivity is essential and respect for the efforts that others have put into their music really matters I think.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:06 AM

Without going into personal experiences just let me say that I'm 100% on the side of Jim, Shimrod and Surreysinger.
Join in with the chorus.......please, but leave the verses to the person singing the song.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Musket
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:08 AM

Jim Carrol wrote;"So let's see what we've got:
We no longer have the choice of the music we wish to listen to because organisers have allowed folk clubs to become dustbins for whatever people now choose to call folk."

Bums on seats and nothing else determines success. Music is an abstract and therefore follows no rules other than harmonic etiquette. Who are "we" Jim? As protest songs are PART (note only part) of the folk tradition, a musical disdain for "us & them" in society is what many people recognise as folk. In a wider tradition, folk means inclusive, not me and my little clique attitudes.

I suggest you start a new club called the rules club and to be fair, from what I read, you may get a few people who are comfortable reading your rules and judging others by their adherence to them.

A bit like when my local pub runs a beer festival. The ones drinking halves whilst writing notes in a book. Whatever floats your boat, but my mates and I are the ones with pint pots and no note books. Nobody ever tried telling me beer festivals had rules either.

It is a folk club because I recognise it as such and that makes it as much a folk club as your interpretation, just that I don't get so hung up..

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:24 AM

Folk clubs are just that – clubs.
People have 'clubbed' together to sing & play songs they all love. So it is natural that they expect to join in & sing together.
A concert is a different situation & I find that audiences at such events don't join in unless invited.
In a club, if I sing an unfamiliar (to the audience) song & over a period of time the audience start joining in, then I know they have listened & enjoyed the song.
Very gratifying.
The occasional 'egotist' who has to show off can always be silenced by pausing & asking if they mind listening to your version!

As for the differences between cultures – a well known Canadian singer appeared at my local club recently & said it was great to hear everybody joining in because 'back in Canada people sit like dummys'. (his words, NOT mine).

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:44 AM

I have to admit I had believed that the club scene had deteriorated since I attended them regularly (up to ten years ago Snail), but I hadn't quite realised how far this had gone.
Ebor-fiddler
"That's why we started the clubs in the first place"
No it wasn't - I was round in the early days too. Sure we had The Clancys and The Dubliners, and we sang our heads off to them - when we were invited to. But we also had the sense - sorry - the desire to listen to singers like Jeannie Robertson, Joe Heaney, MacColl, Lloyd, Killen - you could hear a pin drop when they sang their ballads and songs, not just out of respect, but out of a desire to hear what THEY were singing.
I started off in the Spinners Club in Liverpool forty-odd years ago, great chorus club, but when a solo song came up it was listened to in complete silence, and if any brain-dead ego-tripper (usually with 'the drink taken') tried to join in they were shushed into silence. If they persisted, which I can't remember ever happening, they would have been bounced out of the club and into the street in two seconds flat - great days, great singing.
This was the case pretty well throughout the thirty-odd years I was involved in the clubs, at The Spinners, The Singers Club, The Waggon and Horses in Manchester, and the dozen or so others I sang at and helped run, also at Festivals like Keele and Poynton..... everywhere, pretty well right up to ten years ago.
Coincidently, I am just indexing some of the hundred-odd interviews we carried out with Norfolk singer Walter Pardon. He talked about singing at home, at the harvest suppers in the local farm barn. Crammed with people, lashing of food and drink, yet complete silence for the non-chorus songs: Van Deiman's Land, Lord Lovell, Broomfield Hill..... even though everybody present had heard them a thousand times and knew them backwards - you could hear a pin drop. "We had too much respect for the singers and for the songs" - wonder where all that respect went?
Richard:
Since when was singing a compulsory singalong activity and what's it got to do with how good or bad a singer is?
Snail,
"Jim on the other seem determined to destroy its reputation and undermine the work of the many folk club organisers"
Your posts get nastier and more dishonest every time you make them - was it something I said?
With respect, I suggest that it is the club organisers who have renaged on their responsibilities, allow their club nights to be practice sessions for non-singers and openly advocate that no standards are necessary for singing at a club - even the ability to hold a tune, who are the ones set on undermining the club scene - wonder who that could be? I suppose after having made these proposals, and having played down the existence of SSs "Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Musical Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad" all performed "irrespective of ability"" clubs, you are now going to tell us that the Singalongamax clubs of this thread don't exist either? Perhaps, now you're here, you could give us your opinion on the theme of this thread.
Yes, things are different here in Ireland. People who go to singing sessions do so to listen to the singing and the singers, not to show the world that they know all the songs, the result being that, just as the fortunes of the music have been changed for the better to the extent that you can be pretty sure that it will be listened to and played by at least the next couple of generations, singing seems to be on the up with excellent new young singers taking up the songs – and being listened to with rapt attention – can you say the same or are all the good people contributing to this thead making it up?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:05 AM

I like to harmonise quietly and preferably well away from the actual performer. Is that wrong? I will sing along if all are invited to.

However, I do think it ill-mannered to compete with the performer.

Have to say when I am performing, I usually like people to join in, unless it is a piece that is still new to me and espeically if I am accompanying myself on guitar. I can get thrown off quite easily. I never could walk and chew gum at the same time.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:09 AM

Thank you, Crow Sister, for your last paragraph. Exactly what I would wish to say, but put much more eloquently.

At the 2 clubs I go to there are a very small number of persistent 'offenders'. Curiously, it is more mindless humming along the entire length of a ballad that annoys me more than singing all the words, although both are, to my mind, ignorant. When it is my turn to sing, I can live with it. It's annoying and distracting, but I can vary tempos, volume and expression sufficiently to (I hope) continue to put the song across in the way I wish. But when I am listening to other people, expecially some of the fine singers we have in this area, it drives me mad. I have seen some excellent singers completely thrown when they have taken great care with a particular phrase, have almost all the audience in rapt silence following the song with them, and then realise the tune is being fed to them at a slightly different tempo and slightly in advance by someone reading a book at the back of the room. Mood lost. Story lost. Sometimes words lost too. Nightmare. I feel so cross that the performer should have that level of interference, and so annoyed to have been robbed of what would otherwise have been a special moment.

Yet perversly there is a tradition locally of not only joining in with choruses with gusto - and I heartily applaud that. It's a wonderful experience - but also of 'adopting' certain traditional songs and ballads and singing the last line of each verse with the singer. And this works just as well, is just as enjoyable to listen to and just and fulfilling to lead when it happens. But the difference between this tradition and that of the individual hummer or mouther of verses is that has evolved with the collective agreement of all the people in the room, and is done in sympathy with the singer, not contrary to their interpretation. I would hate to see this practice quashed and as a consequence do not tackle the people who are joining in inappropropriatly because I'm not sure I am tactful enough to make the distinction bewteen 'good' and 'bad' without causing offence.

It has been suggested that performers could say 'join in' or 'please don't join in' with songs if it was important to them. This may perhaps work for a guest artiste - If they are unhappy with joining in on an song early in the evening, they may risk asking for a little mor respect on the next ballad - but other than 'Shhhh' how can an audience member ask?

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:40 AM

I have posted on this previously, but I think it worth a reprise.

There used to be (might still be, for all I know) a brilliant sesiun in the Ducie, just behind the University Theatre, in Manchester.

I was asked to give a song one Sunday lunchtime, a rare privilege in a predominantly instrumental sesiun.

I sang "The Rambling Ulsterman", and some cretin, with a square bodhran - it's as true as I am writing this - joined in, giving a rhythmic (?) accompaniment to my unacompanied singing.

Just what I wanted - how did I ever sing "The Rambling Ulsterman" without it ?

Then one of the musicians said "If you don't stop playing that fucking bodhran while Bryn is singing the song I asked hom to sing, I shall take it and shove it up your arsehole !".

The pillock asked me afterwards "You didn't mind me playing whiule you were singing, did you, Bryn ?"

I just looked at him, and those who know me personally will understand that the look I gave him spoke louder than words can.

Onew of the reasons Erica and I don't go to folk club any more is that good manners, which was one thing which distinguished our music from other forms, has gone to fuck in the past 10 years.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:36 AM

last month[april 2009] I played in seven different clubs,not once did I encounter bad manners, or people joining in songs uninvited,or anyone making popping noises. ,or anything else that as a performer I couldnt handle .Dick Miles

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:46 AM

The one that annoys me - someone actually said it last week "Don't do that, it's too long".

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:13 AM

Jim Carroll

Your posts get nastier and more dishonest every time you make them - was it something I said?

Well, comparing me to Goebbels didn't exactly endear me to you but mainly it's your refusal to believe what I tell you about the good things happening in UK folk clubs that really anoys me.

With respect, I suggest that it is the club organisers who have renaged on their responsibilities, allow their club nights to be practice sessions for non-singers and openly advocate that no standards are necessary for singing at a club - even the ability to hold a tune, who are the ones set on undermining the club scene - wonder who that could be?

I have no idea, Jim. It certainly isn't me. If you have any specific accusations to make, make them. (And stop accusing ME of being snide.)

I suppose after having made these proposals [who has done that?] , and having played down the existence of SSs "Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Musical Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad" all performed "irrespective of ability"" clubs, you are now going to tell us that the Singalongamax clubs of this thread don't exist either?

I'm sure they must exist although I never go to any of them myself. I have no need to, there are plenty of good ones to keep me busy. What I do contest is that the bad ones are representative of the whole.
Your reliance on SS's claims clearly illustrates my point about seletive reading. You conveniently ignore the criticism he received from others on that thread. You also discard this post from another member of the same club because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Perhaps, now you're here, you could give us your opinion on the theme of this thread.

No simple answer. Insensitive joining in can be very annoying but sitting in neat, silent, attentive rows not even daring to tap your feet isn't folk music for me. Many performers I know find it disconcerting to perform to an audience who appear to be clinically dead. If a singer doesn't have the power to capture the audience's attention and make the song their own, perhaps they don't deserve that attention. I have known some magical moments when the concentration has been such that it seemed that everybody in the room really had stopped breathing. I have known others where we really did seem to "shake the plaster from the walls" often at the same session.

Yes, things are different here in Ireland. People who go to singing sessions do so to listen to the singing and the singers, not to show the world that they know all the songs, the result being that, just as the fortunes of the music have been changed for the better to the extent that you can be pretty sure that it will be listened to and played by at least the next couple of generations, singing seems to be on the up with excellent new young singers taking up the songs – and being listened to with rapt attention – can you say the same

It is true that we are not attracting many young people although things are beginning to look up, otherwise, yes.

or are all the good people contributing to this thead making it up?

The trouble is that you don't listen to ALL the people contributing to this thead and others, just those that fit your argument. Are you saying that I am making it up?

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:43 AM

well I live in Ireland ,I visit folk clubs in England more often than Jim Carroll,so Iam fairly well qualified to pontificate.
firstly sessions in Ireland can vary as they do every where,recently at a session, a persistent pain in the arse who tried to howl or sing during a set of tunes had to be told to desist.,the same had to be said to A Djembe drum basher,who had his own rhythym.
secondly rudeness at folk events is nothing new,but to put it in perspective is fairly rare,with respect to every other contributor,I have played many[thousands of folk events] over the last thirty five years,and the worst rudeness occurred to me at Crewe and Nantwich folk festival in 1985,the mc were Garside and Gough[ now smooth ops]they allowed three drunken yobs,to get up and harass my ex wife Sue Miles,asking for stranger on the shore,and wanting to play her clarinet,.and were completely ineffectual as mcs.
that was 24 years ago,and to be honest is the only rudeness that I can remember,so must represent about oo5 per cent,there may have been one otr two others but I cant remember them now..
try playing working mens clubs ,then you get the treatment,most folk clubs are very polite,some here have argued that they are too polite allowing sub standard performers to sing.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:48 AM

yes,Iremember,now Sheffield Grapes mid eighties,a man used to appear with an imaginary dog on a lead ,and bark ,at the end of songs when everyone else was clapping,not really rude but a bit off putting.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 01 May 09 - 07:36 AM

Sorry to have to contradict you, cap'n, but perhaps this may illustrate why inappropriate joining in can spoil things for audience members rather than professionals.

I was at one of your recent bookings. It was a great evening - in many ways just like folk clubs used to be with your own informed choice of songs containing many of my (and many other people's) favourites and also several less well known songs which were thought provoking, stimulating and very enjoyable. The chorus singing was mighty. The floor singers seemed to raise their game a level in recognition that they were part of something special. The room was packed. I had a great time. But a few songs were, for me at least, marred by just a couple of people who insisted on humming/singing along with the verses. You might not have even been aware of it. You have a strong voice and you concentrate totally on your delivery of the song, and that may mean that some of the distractions pass you by. The interference certainly did not make me think less of you - in fact I was impressed by how unaffected you were by it - but it did mean that I lost the thread of the story of one ballad because my mind was busy cursing the person a couple of seats away.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:13 AM

Hey, Mick: If he was a good enough friend, maybe you should have said something. Good friend or not, there is a courteous way to say something that most people can accept without getting all riled up about it. Especially friends.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:50 AM

fair comment, AW.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 09 - 10:08 AM

Jerry, if you knew the person (and you do) then you would know that it would not have worked. I just let him finish the song, as to do anything else would have damaged the good feelings of the circle for all involved. I could not do that. This is a song that I work on creating a whole feeling for the story. Phrasing, timing, timbre..... all very important. This person just walked all over the top of that, so I just backed off and let him finish it. To say anything would have embarassed him and put a damper on the whole gathering. You would think that my just stopping singing would have gave the clue, but the other singer was either oblivious, or had achieved what he wanted.

But I don't think I would let it go again.........

Mick

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Bert
Date: 01 May 09 - 10:13 AM

When NOT to sing - when what YOU are singing differs from what the performer is singing.

Not only different words or tune but different timing or singing a harmony can throw off a performer.

And if you are one of those performers who hates people singing along the answer is very simple. Sing something that they don't know.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Marje
Date: 01 May 09 - 11:58 AM

I think Azizi has a good point about cultural differences.

In the US it seems to be common to sing from "The Book". I can see how, if people can open up and see the words in front of them, it seems natural to sing them all together, like singing hymns in church, regardless of who started off the song.

It also seems to be more common in the US for an uninvited musician to accompany a singer, perhaps because unaccompanied solo singing is not such a big part of US tradition and sounds a bit incomplete to many people.

Neither of these situations arises so often in the UK (or Ireland, I imagine). But in the UK, especially in England, there's still a great tradition of chorus and harmony singing, which has links with church music and the amateur choral tradtion. It seems natural to many people to join in and to harmonise with others, and there are plenty of singing events where this is expected and encouraged. There are, on the other hand, more formal, performance-based events where most people wouldn't think it appropriate to join in unless invited to; there are also some types of songs, such as ballads, where it's generally recognised that it's best just to sit and listen.

The Irish singing tradition makes far less use of harmony. Instead, Irish singers often use inflection and ornamentation to indicate the harmonic context of the melody, so it's not so common or appropriate for others to join in or harmonise.

So although our various cultures overlap in all sorts of ways, they're still distinct, and sometimes our expectations differ because of this. There's no point in getting into a sulk or a strop because other people have different tastes or habits - if you feel strongly, you can simply say, "I'd like to do this one completely by myself, please," or (alternatively) "Please join in and don't leave me singing the chorus on my own - and some harmony would be great!" That's all that's needed if you are not sure how other people are going to respond.

Marje

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: paula t
Date: 01 May 09 - 12:13 PM

We love to hear the audience joining in. In fact, we remind them if they are a bit too shy or quiet. As I said earlier, most people read the situation and know when joining in mind wind up the rest of the audience.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 May 09 - 01:08 PM

" ... but mainly it's your refusal to believe what I tell you about the good things happening in UK folk clubs that really anoys me."

Sorry to butt in on a good row, 'Snail' but we don't normally hear about what's happening in ALL UK folk clubs from you. We hear what is happening in YOUR particular club in Lewes, Sussex. I've not been to your club (I would guess it would be approx. a 500 mile round trip for me) but I'm sure it's as excellent as you say it is - I completely take your word for it! But it does not represent ALL UK folk clubs now, does it? Even you can't draw conclusions about the whole population by extrapolating from a single sample.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 09 - 01:39 PM

with respect,this[joining in uninvited and making popping noises] does not happen in all folk clubs,but [in my experience] a very small minority.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 09 - 02:09 PM

One of the glorious memories I have is of sitting in the audience at a Getaway and hearing voices all around me rise in harmony in the choruses of performers on stage. It filled my pores, saturated my being, like being in an airplane looking down at a dense cloud bank below- firm enough to rest on. To say that I absolutely loved it is a gross understatement.

I like ballads too and other songs that tell a story or develop a theme to an inexorable climax. When a chorus exists in a song like that I think that an audience is absorbed enough to mute the chorus or to rise in triumphant crescendo as indicated, especially if guided by the perormer. When I'm absorbed in the development of story however,I don't require a chorus. A skillfully written song tends to indicate which it should be.

But to object that some audiences seem to think that the sound of a song is more important than the lyrics is missing something important. Of course, the sound is more important - why else sing, instead of recite? I love beautiful opera, especially if I don't know the language. Waves of sound and the harmonies within transport me - and I'm sure that I'm not alone - to a much different place.

On the other hand, there are songs where harmonies are not actually appropriate, imo. A raw tale recounting a human tragedy or other failing shouldn't be adorned, I think.

To me, a great deal of responsibility for the audience's response rests with the performer. If the performer is skilled, he or she will get across to the listener(s) what is appropriate.

Performers who say upfront their preferences are wise. Irish Tommy Sands, for instance, invites the audience to sing along in the chorus - and with harmonies - but to listen to the verses.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 09 - 02:53 PM

Ebbie just said it all for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:06 PM

To me it is almost entirely the sound. I am really not into nuances etc. And if we are just talking about UK...well, does that not include Wales? Certainly some of them would expect to sing along, at least this bunch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMI5wpwXTCY&feature=related

It also includes many immigrants. We know of the great singing cultures in Africa..New Zealand..Estonia..Hawaii..

Anyone can have any preference they want but they shouldn't assume everyone knows what the local practices are, and be in a huff about it. Just explain what it is. And don't assume they come to specifically hear the performer. Sometimes they are dragged along by a spouse etc. Sometimes it is a social night out. Sometimes they might have just sort of stumbled in, so say up front what you want. If they don't like that rule they can leave. But don't look down your nose at them either for trying to show off by knowing all the words. That is sheer nonsense for someone who likes to sing. Some of us quite happily will sing along and leave great gaps in the words anyway.

People tend to assume that others see things and hear things as they do. This is just not so. Nothing wrong with liking things a certain way, and acting to make it happen how you like it. Seek like-minded people. Put locks on the doors or have secret passwords if you need to keep certain types out...I have no complaints with that...but the level of disdain for those who do not see things like you do is too high for my taste. mg

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:49 PM

"People tend to assume that others see things and hear things as they do. This is just not so. Nothing wrong with liking things a certain way, and acting to make it happen how you like it. Seek like-minded people. Put locks on the doors or have secret passwords if you need to keep certain types out...I have no complaints with that...but the level of disdain for those who do not see things like you do is too high for my taste. mg"

Ahah! This is the point where those of us who question whether it's right or proper for members of the audience to 'muscle-in' on a singer's performance are accused of having 'moral failings'. As with the 'definition' debates this is generally the point where the opposition demonstrates that it has run out of arguments: "I disagree with you but I can't argue with you so I've decided to find what you say morally offensive!"

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:34 PM

I don't think muscling in on a singer's performance is a moral question, unless and until they have been told in a very straightforward manner that this is not the local practice, or is not what the performer wishes etc. They don't know. Just like people don't know exactly the way obsessive people like to load the dishwasher, but will always get it wrong unless they are told the preferred way. We are talking about personal preferences, which are not universal, cultural differences in a time of great cultural diversity even in out of the way enclaves, and wierd assumptions that strangers to an event are somehow supposed to know what the unspoken rules are. Just say what you prefer and kick them out if they don't comply. They don't, the poor simpletons, know that it is not right or proper to do certain things. They probably eat peas on their knives besides and blow their noses on their shirtsleeves, which is why Napoleon supposedly came up with buttons on sleeves, but that is another story altogether. mg

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: mandotim
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:52 PM

A competent performer should be able to find a way of indicating their preferences to the audience. There is no 'morality' about this, it's just a question of simple, open communication. Most audiences are not telepathic, so just let them know what you want. If you want to be asked to perform again, find a way that isn't rude or offensive, and make sure that you understand the customs of your venue/audience properly before doing so. If it's a session, rather than a performance, this is doubly important, as the other participants are not technically an audience at all, but co-musicians. Some venues expect to sing along, others expect to sit and listen in silence, and all points in between. Knowing your audience is a big part of performance.
An example of getting this wrong; I was at a weekend gathering recently, where everyone had more or less joined in to make some very good music, when one person got up with his expensive guitar to sing a version of a very well known and frankly over-performed song. He was doing an adequate job of this, no more, when another musician (not me!) added a very quiet and tasteful accompaniment, playing with great sublety and paying close attention to rhythm and dynamics. The singer immediately stopped, glared at the person concerned and said aggressively 'Who's playing this, you or me?' The erstwhile accompanist was embarrassed and upset, and the way this was done cast a real damper over the rest of the evening. All the singer had to say (in advance) was 'I'd like to do this one on my own, please', and the unpleasantness could have been avoided. In this case, I felt the singer was in the wrong; he hadn't grasped the nature of the event, and hadn't communicated properly in advance. It would have been different if the format was solo performances; he could then have expected to be free of accompaniment unless he specifically asked for it. All he succeeded in doing was alienating the whole gathering, who pointedly ignored his next contribution. The next singer then made an unsubtle point of inviting people to join in.
I don't think there is a right and wrong here; it all depends on context, and context can be changed by communicating properly if necessary.
Tim

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:24 PM

As a singer songwriter of songs that are I hope good to join in with I find it absolutely wonderful if people join in with me when I am singing, and sometimes it happens

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 May 09 - 07:15 PM

Try to keep these people from singing along..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgHX7bu-TWk&feature=related

I am ashamed to say I had never heard tell of this. mg

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:23 PM

Shimrod, try reading what I actually said.

Even you can't draw conclusions about the whole population by extrapolating from a single sample.

Don't tell me, tell Jim. He's the one that is condemning all UK folk clubs on the basis of very little evidence indeed.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ref
Date: 01 May 09 - 09:19 PM

Now when doing a sing-along, and someone sings along but just "off" enough to hang you up, can anyone suggest a positive way to address the (unintending) malefactor?

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 09 - 09:44 PM

If you can catch his or her eye, raising your hand, palm side down, and lowering it slowly (and significantly) should be enough to indicate to the 'malefactor' to sing more quietly. S/He will never know why :)

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 09 - 10:18 PM

When NOT to sing -

1. Just before the judge passes sentence
2. During a two minute silence
3. While stalking a grizly bear

As to the rest of the stuff that is going on here. Looks like the usual imaginary treading on toes, rattling of rusty sabres and low blood sugars to me. But what do I know?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 09 - 10:56 PM

When NOT to sing -

1. Just before the judge passes sentence
2. During a two minute silence
3. While stalking a grizly bear

el Gnomo, singing just before the judge passes sentence might pan out very well for you. Might even garner you a new trial.

Not that I can say I have tried it.

As for bears and song- some years ago I stopped to rest on a steep winding mountain trail and lingered when I heard a man's voice in fullthroated song some distance down below me. When he and his companion came into view, I called out to him. "Nice voice," I said.

"Just keeping the bears away" he responded, and as they disappeared around the next turn, again his song rose into the air.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 02:37 AM

For me, this thread is a peep into the contempt in which the individual singer is held as a creative or interpretive performer.
M. Mario put it fairly clearly when he said that the performer has "practically no rights in the eyes of the public". And that apparently is how it stands nowadays.
If I go to Linda Kelly's club I will be faced with her 'massed choirs of (whatever they call themselves)" because they "positively encourage" the audience to join in - no matter what a visiting singer might want. How bloody arrogantly repressive can you get?
As far as I am concerned it is the singers who make the running in terms of their own performances - not some tasteless organiser. It is they who should decide whether they want the audience to join in and are perfectly capable of indicating their wishes in the matter; they should not have to cope with some crass decision made beforehand on their behalf.
Of course, they can always go cap-in-hand and request permission to be allowed to perform their songs solo. But then they would have to contend with Richard Bridge's superb:
"It must be wonderful to be so aware of your superiority that the rest cannot and must not join in with you. " Or M Mario and his friends who have somehow voted themselves the right to join in with whatever they choose, giving the performer no say in the matter whatever.
This is treating the singers as little more than performing animals with no choice whatever in how their songs are performed or received.
Contrary to Bryan Creer's 'fence sitting' act, it is the job of the club organisers to present the visiting singer with as much freedom as possible within the policy of the club to perform their songs as they wish without having to fight an audience desperately trying to sound (at best) like The Humming Chorus from Madam Butterfly.
I think I was given the most unnecessary piece of advice I have ever recieved on this thread when Linda Kelly said "Best not come to our club Jim," - I wouldn't go within a hundred miles of a club that imposes such a repressive and restrictive policy on visiting singers. Somebody explain to me what these legendary 'folk police' I keep hearing about are - on second thoughts, don't bother - I think I get the message.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 May 09 - 02:57 AM

"In the US it seems to be common to sing from "The Book"'.
Not true Marje, only in certain circles where they can't get away from singing without a book! On the whole there are far more places in the US where singing from "the book" just doesn't happen.

"When in Rome do as the Romans"

It's been over 25 yrs since I've been to any music clubs/sessions overseas & that was only when I was in Ireland. I'm extremely excited to have been invited to perform at a festival in the UK in July & I'm dying to finally get to see & hear what your clubs & sessions are like. Not to worry, I make it a habit to see what's the norn before I embrass myself.

Here in the US we don't have the equalivent of your folk clubs in the UK or Ireland. We have club societies that run concerts & house concerts, bars & pubs that get used as venues & put on folk performers or have sessions but from your discriptions we don't really have folk clubs with regulars & their own floor singers where every so often hey put on "Guest" & have a few floor singers inbetween & after sets. There may be a few places that come somewhat close to that but it's not at all common.
However we do have some places were singers * musicians gather to play together & loads of sessions where there's hardly any singing, though as Tom mentioned above there are a few but they are not the norm buy any means. Then there are many Getaways, the best I've seen are the DC Getaway which many east coast muddcatters have been to & the West Coast's end of the yr Lark just north of San Francisco which I last attend almost 30 yrs ago but cna still taste.
Here in the US I do believe it's much more common for us to join
in.

When I perform, I do mostly worksongs & shanties. Songs that were meant to have others sing along with. I love people singing, I do care that they sing what I'm singing, tune & words but I want them to enjoy what they come out to do & that's sing, so when they're singing I'm happiest. If don't often sing ballads but I do love to sing them, I don't because mostly people want to sing. When I'm at an after hours "fringe" (sing session? not sure it's your word) at a festival & it's all singers pulling the "rare & uncommon" tricks out of their hats & it's just keeps getting better & better & the ballads are getting darker & longer, you can bet that a pin drop can be heard & that no one would brake the trance,,,,or sing along that's also true here.
It's different everywhere.
My opinion, first if you're the singer let everyone know straight out beforehand if you don't want them to sing or if you want them to join in, give them that respect & you will get it in return. If you're gonna sing a chorus song or something with a refrain here then expect that you'll get folks to sing along weither or not you ask. I always encourage folks to join & & if they sing the whole way through it their song to sing with I never owned it in the 1st place. I dont have much of a problem with others trying to lead me or sing over me or doing whatever they do, I have mostly found that before the song ahs gone to far they're right in set & in tune with me.
When I'm over there I'll do as you do but hopefully I'll be able to enjoy a song or 2 while I'm there

Captain Birdseye, I'll be looking forward to meeting up with you. I'm told that you're also on the bill at the Scarborough Seafest, yes??

Barry

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 May 09 - 03:06 AM

Ref
"Now when doing a sing-along, and someone sings along but just "off" enough to hang you up, can anyone suggest a positive way to address the (unintending) malefactor?"

Yes, stop & say that someone's singing off & name them if you know who. Sometimes it doesn't help though & please try to do it with some sensitivity. Hah, hah

Barry

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:56 AM

''If I go to Linda Kelly's club I will be faced with her 'massed choirs of (whatever they call themselves)" because they "positively encourage" the audience to join in - no matter what a visiting singer might want. How bloody arrogantly repressive can you get?
As far as I am concerned it is the singers who make the running in terms of their own performances - not some tasteless organiser.''

I think your statement is about as bloody arrogantly repressive as it gets Jim. Calm down dear, its not good for your health. We don't have massed choirs we have an attentive and friendly audience who delight in the performance of professionals, buy their CD's pay for them to perform. Don't humiliate them and treat them like morons who can't string a tune together. I am also a professional performer, and I am delighted if people join in with my songs, it seems to me the most natural thing in the world to want to sing along and we at the club never outsing the performer. I take it as read on Mudcat that there are some folk who see club organisers as some vile underclass going by other threads that I have seen. Clubs would run without us the only difference being that no one would be booking professional performers doing publicity running websites balancing the books and dealing with all the other stuff -we would have sessions only. Thanks for delivering my first personal attack in all my years on Mudcat-as they say on the telly -'Am I bovvered?'

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 09 - 06:59 AM

yes,Barry.I am booked atScarboro sea fest 2009 looking forward to meeting you too .

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 07:41 AM

No Linda, I don't consider club organisers as a 'vile underclass', having been one myself for a long time - I consider some, particularly those who ecourage their audiences to sing along with the performer, thereby depriving them of the right to perform solo, as irresponsible, and the audience members who prefer to hear the singers interpretation of the song rather than that of the person's in the next seat.
Are you bovvered - I'm sure you're not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:08 AM

Am I bovver'ed about your insults -no not really. Am I bothered about growing a successful club and allowing people to enjoy themselves to participate in live music and to be part of something really special week in week out -yes I am -very much so. Dont come to our club Jim, because I am sure you wouldn't enjoy it -it wouldn't be your style -but the peole who come each week do, and the artistes I book have nothing but praise for the club and it's atmosphere. I have never once have an act say to me 'I love the club but the singing really annoyed me' but lots say 'When can I come back?' You have your opinion and I have mine -don't be disrespectful of people's differences.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:48 AM

Linda,
I apologise for my knee-jerk reaction.
For me, the right of any performer to perform unhindered is a basic one which you, by deciding in advance that the audience automatically be encouraged to join in, infringe.
I described ealier how Walter Pardon, an elderly field singer, was forced to drop songs from his repertoire because of insensitive audiences.
Walter was far too polite a man to make rules when he sang at clubs, so presumably, were he booked at your club, he would be subjected to the same treatment you apparently subject all your guest singers to.
Had Walter objected in any way he would then, presumably be given the Richard Bridge treatment "he thinks he is better than us".
Surely it is the singer, not the club who should decide on something as basic as whether or not an audience sings along with the songs?
I may have been wrong, but I detected no attempt on your part to explain your policy - rather, a tone of 'this is what we do - so there!!'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:02 AM

Certainly the singer decides whether he or she wants the audience to sing along. Nobody denies that.   The only point, as many of us have already stated, is that it's reasonable for the singer to tell the audience--before he or she starts singing-- whether or not singing along is desirable.

It's a rare member of the audience who will blatantly disregard the singer's wishes after that.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:22 AM

Well to a certain extent Jim, it is what we do, because it is what we do-but not in an arrogant or disrespectful way, but because we all love to sing and we chose performers who will enjoy us as much as we enjoy them. Club members would be mortified if they felt they had made a singer or musician feel uncomfortable. It's just the way we choose to enjoy our music and I don't think any one should criticise us for it.   There would be no problem if a singer said choruses only and the best of them can silence the room anyway. The joy of music lives in our club and I can't apologise for that I'm afraid. I will apologise however for the incident with the farting dog, but that's a whole different story!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:42 AM

rather, a tone of 'this is what we do - so there!!'

I know more than a few musicians with this self-same attitude.

Ron Davies is right, it's ultimately the musician that makes the decision as to whether there is audience participation or not, during her/his performance.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 09 - 12:06 PM

An audience is a precious commodity, easily lost. I'd think that what the audience wants should tend to influence the dynamics from the front-and-center folks..... How DARE they presume to enjoy the singing so much that, inspired by a fine singer, they might think to so much as open their throats and join in!!!

When I think of the money I've spent on folk music over many years-- never realizing how many of the "performers" were watching for any opportunity to wring resentment out of my pleasure-- it really pisses me off.

(If one is singing not for one's own joy but to control others and flatter one's own ego, well, that would sure explain a lot!)

Look, no one likes to be controlled by someone else. If YOU Love the song enough to sing it, is it really a surprise others also may love it that much as well? DAMN them for not being mindreaders! Why not just line 'em up and shoot 'em. But be sure to pick their pockets first. :~)

~Susan