Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 03:09 PM

Interesting!

Same lyricist as 1911's Winds of Dawn and same year as his lesson book.

One correction to a previous post: Charles L. Lofthouse was Sir Stafford Lofthouse Sands' uncle not his cousin. The extended family controlled a very large slice of the Bahamian (tourist) economy after the Flager System sold out. The old place on Marlborough Street in Nassau is still at it.

And, fwiw, Uncle Charley would be one quarter "Castellano" or "Peninsulari" on his mother's side which is "White" in the islands but "Hispanic" Stateside. So he's either a young person of colour or a white boy depending on the when and where of the observer.

Still looking for his mysterious connection to the American version of Peanut Vendor.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,anonymous
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 10:11 AM

The earliest published work from Charles Lofthouse is "When de silver lantern's lighted" lyrics by Julia Warner Michael in 1910. These lyrics are found in "Native Nassau" a book of poetry by Julia Warner Michael in 1904.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:47 AM

And this fact proves exactly my entire point. Just because some white boys copyrighted some songs that they encountered in The Bahamas doesn't mean they created it. That is a foolish way of thinking that probably originated in America.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:45 PM

I have discovered the creator of the song Peas and Rice and Coconut oil. It was a Black Bahamian by the name of Bert Cambridge. He formed the earliest professional Bahamian band, called the Cambridge Orchestra in 1923. He later became a member of the Chocolate Dandies in the 1930's, which including the future King of Goombay, George Symonette. He also was the composer of Do Ann Anny Do

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:01 PM

I'm a guest here, but this song is familiar to me from a late 30's recording by Jimmy Rushing with the Count Basie band. Lyrics are quite similar to those already shown back when this thread originated. Will be glad to transcribe and post, if anyone is interested.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:03 PM

He later adopted the black style of music in the 1930's because of their popularity.

This is also the view of Gail Saunders and Michael Craton.

"Curiously it was taken up(and given some respectability) by a talented member of the white elite, Charles lofthouse, who wrote the popular "Bahama Mama" and "Goombay Pappa, Beat the Drum again" in the 1930's." Islanders in the Stream: A History of the Bahamian People. Vol. 2: From the Ending of Slavery to the Twenty-First Century. By Michael Craton and Gail Saunders. Pg. 478

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:56 PM

I have actually found a song copyrighted by Lofthouse in 1913 called Dear heart I know, which is a waltz ballad. Dear heart I know sounds like a song that would come from the bay street Elite.

And this to me makes absolute sense.

https://archive.org/stream/catalogofcopyri91libr#page/68/mode/2up/search/Charles+Leonard+Lofthouse

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:47 PM

Phil with the John B I have recognized the claim of a 1903 existence but I haven't read it yet, do you have a screen capture of it?

This has nothing to do with facts, as I have admitted I haven't seen it, so that is a stupid comparison.

I asked you to provide the sources for the Baystreet boys being the originators of said songs or Americans, or that the song John B was only widespread among the baystreet elite.

Can you assist me with any source that claims these statements are true or is this a narrative you made up yourself?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:29 PM

"Oy"
I agree 100%
Shake head, walk on.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM

"I am an emotional person, but I can still speak the facts.... Which I haven't read as of yet."

Oy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:18 PM

I am an emotional person, but I can still speak the facts. He makes a lot of claims yet most of them are unfounded. The best case he can argue is the John B and even then he can't prove that the song wasn't already in The Bahamas predating the 1903 reference(which by the way I can't find.) As far as I personally have been able to confirm is that of richard le gallienne mentioning in a 1916 article. Which I haven't read as of yet.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM

somebody is getting pretty emotional here . . .

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:38 PM

Do you people ever stop trying to steal other peoples culture? Yes our culture made an impact on American society.

That is reality, and no matter how much lies you continue to tell yourself to come to grips with that, you simply just need to grow up and stop making up nonsense.

If by now you still can't accept you are wrong, then it is what it is.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

We also know that the Black Bahamian Austin Ira Destoup, arranged a piece for the Ballymena that he published in a book called Grants town melodies in 1927. We also know that he wrote a song to encourage Bahamians to join the West Indies Regiment to assist in WW! in 1917.

So blacks like I stated are already composing songs and writing them at this time and much earlier.

https://bahamianology.com/hice-up-the-john-b-sail-by-austin-ira-destoup-1927/

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:21 AM

So your claims are Bahamians don't have any Folksongs.
Yanks were involved in their creation.
It was only the Bay Street Elite who had access to the John B.
Tourist Narrative.
The support of the development board promoting music occured during the height of Calypso music in the 30's to 50's. All the songs we talking about predates the 30's.

Interesting also that Charles Lofthouse copyrighted Peas n Rice in 1931, not that he created the song, but he may have put his own twist on it.

As I would point out again, We have evidence from Amelia Defries in 1916 stating that Black Bahamians had bands playing their own natively composed songs.

Earliest mention of the song is 1921, lofthouse copyrighted 10 years later.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM

And Charles Lofthouse grandfather was a missionary from England. News flash most white Bahamians ancestry is from England, my ancestors from Long Island are Burrows and my earliest ancestor from that line originally settled in Long Island directly from England. I have another white lineage from Abaco, The Russell's. They were spongers who lived on Cave Cay in Abaco but I don't know if they were Loyalist or the original Russell settlers who were here before Woodes Rogers even arrived.

I know Lofthouse was a Bahamian. That is not the argument, you are claiming it is a tourist narrative associated with the Bay street boys and also claiming that Yanks made the songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:38 AM

Also do you have a date for the 4 years he was in Paris?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:37 AM

"Should you have met, quite by chance while down in Nassau, the composer, Charlie Lofthouse, you would find yourself chatting agreeably about tourists, about music, about fellow Bahamians and last, but certainly not least, his stories of four years of gay life in Paris. In these years he studied voice and classical music but not so intensely as to interfere with his existence in the Quarter Latin. He obviously became an expert writer of calypso music and moreover he knew how to have fun."

Is there a place I can read it for myself on the internet?

If this is the case it does make a stronger case for the claim made by Heilner, Van Campen in 1922 of the tune being a tune in Paris as you have stated.

However this doesn't prove it because even doe he copyrighted peas n rice in 1931, a song which has been documented since 1921 he never copyrighted the Ballymena, so if this was his song, why didn't he copyright it along with peas n rice?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:48 AM

RE: Lofthouse in France,

"Should you have met, quite by chance while down in Nassau, the composer, Charlie Lofthouse, you would find yourself chatting agreeably about tourists, about music, about fellow Bahamians and last, but certainly not least, his stories of four years of gay life in Paris. In these years he studied voice and classical music but not so intensely as to interfere with his existence in the Quarter Latin. He obviously became an expert writer of calypso music and moreover he knew how to have fun."

The Goombay Troubadours, Bahama Lullaby: and other Bahamian Calypsos (Goombay) Composed by Charlie Lofthouse, Island Artists, Ltd., LP-1005, 1957, Liner notes [uncredited].

There are other mentions elsewhere. Lots of familiar tunes on this one but it isn't just from Bay Street. Lofthouse was a Bay Street Boy, second generation.

There is also an English Charles Thornton Lofthouse, harpsichordist. Nassau's middle name was "Leonard."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:18 PM

To paraphrase the record executive: "We don't make culture we make records."

Making a record doesn't mean you produced songs, making a record is talking about compiling and worthy selection of songs to release for the market.

As I have posted they did not write produce any of the songs they simply recorded the music of live bands that they considered good.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:00 PM

And let me put into context for the intellectuals among us.

An American wouldn't come here and compose music about peas n rice and coconut oil, that would make absolutely no sense and the bay street boys wouldn't compose these songs, for obvious reasons.

If it was for tourist reasons songs would of been more along the lines of paradise and relaxation, not about indigenous cultural life among the common people, lol.

The only song that you can mention that doesn't fall in this category is the John B sails which may very well have originated among white or mixed Bahamians. However the narrative of the song is still entirely folk Bahamian and not a tourist based songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:09 PM

Phil, show me the reference that says these songs are from the bay street boys? I will be waiting! The Bay Street Boys are Bahamians, if you read pieces of eight by RICHARD LE GALLIENNE "There were far more blacks than whites down on Bay Street".

First you claimed these songs were made by the yanks now you are saying they were made by the Bahamian Bay Street Boys? Without providing an actual source to prove it?

Is that what discography is? lol

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:06 PM

Re Charley Noble's post (May 09) we always sang '...in the Quartermaster's Stores' not 'corps'. (This was in the early fifties, not long after the War)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:47 PM

To paraphrase the record executive: "We don't make culture we make records."

You want dogs barking Christmas carols? It's aisle four on your left.

The media isn't from over the hill. It's from the Bay Street Boys. If you want to label that industrial strength music machine's product "trad" go right ahead. That's exactly what it was intended for.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 04:21 AM

That comeback was so weak it is laughable. Reality is it is a Bahamian folk song and Bay Street is in the Bahamas.

No one asked Discography to process emotions, we are talking about common sense and where the evidence points to. The evidence clear, what isn't the job of Discography is to make up false narratives with no solid basis for them to stand on.

Claiming a song being mentioned on Baystreet sung by people who lived over the hill while working as evidence that Americans somehow made the song is .... well you know.

If you are saying that American musical influences were present in the Bahamas and there are traces of that in these folk songs, then it would still be a Bahamian folk song. Every society has influences in their culture from other cultures, Japanese culture was highly influenced by china, I don't see no one claiming that Japanese culture is somehow Chinese or not Japanese because of some cultural interaction.

Bahamian culture has Bermudian, Irish, English, Scottish, Haitian, Jamaican, African, and American influences. All of that at the end of the day makes up Bahamian culture!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:03 AM

Off-topic generalizations and recipes we got aplenty but, alas, I see the non-Bay Street Boy sources for Peas & Rice are still wanting here.

In my lifetime Harry Belafonte has gone from an appropriative sell-out to one of America's most beloved, authentic folk singers. Nothing about his music catalog changed in the interim, just the "feels."

Discography does not process emotion. That the two methods produce different music histories doesn't really surprise me in the least.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 06:49 PM

"they had been the previous night at an open air concert in which many songs and marches composed by their own people had been played and sung" Amelia Dorothy Defries 1916

This is observed by Amelia Dorothy Defries in 1916 and published in 1917.

There were many natively composed songs on the Island dating back to the 19th century. A particular orchestra was mentioned in the 19th century by William Drysdale in a book published in 1885.

They played American and British songs, and songs he claimed no man have ever heard before.

I think this plays an important part in the development of songs like Peas and Rice, which is undoubtedly a native song at it's origins.

These songs origins have been birthed from folk narratives and cultural expressions of the Bahamian people. The fact that these songs were made popular through the American music industry doesn't make the songs less Bahamian. It is Bahamian because of it's origins not its changes.

An Example Peas n Rice is an indigenous expression to The Bahamas. Jamaica and Trinidad and the rest of them say rice and peas. Even when you listen to the song by Lord Lebby https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIGw4vk7Tsg he says Rice n peas.

A person who is not familiar with Bahamian culture although they carry the name Conch which was originally a term exclusive to Bahamians, can never truly understand the culture of Bahamians if their mind will always be one sided.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:51 PM

Papa don't want no peas nor rice nor cocoanut oil,
Papa don't want no peas nor rice nor cocoanut oil,
Papa don't want no peas nor rice nor cocoanut oil,…….
All he wants is sugar brandy all de time.

Ackknowledgement
The six songs with music were taken down by Mrs. Alice Pashley.
[Defries, Amelia, The Fortunate Islands, (London: Cecil Palmer, 1929, p.xxi)]


Notes: I believe Alice Pashley had already moved on to Trinidad some years before The Fortunate Islands chapters were reissued/published in 1929 (the artist is something of a legend in T&T.) Unlike Van Campen Heilner's Under the Southern Cross/Motor Boating compilation that followed in 1930 however, Defries wrote for more than one periodical and added much more new material. I'm still running down all the original articles just to be sure there's no earlier songbook. For present at least, this is the first appearance of the Pashley lyrics and the first music of any source appearing in print.

One of the other six songs is a version of Delia Gone which can be seen here:

Origins: Delia / Delia's Gone (61* d)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:21 AM

"Nassau was as fascinating as of old. Since I had last visited there, the Colonial had been destroyed by fire and a new and greater one had risen from the ashes to take its place. It was one of the finest resort hotels we had ever seen, and two of us were in the hotel business.

The harbor was packed with rum-runners. Vessels of every description – schooners, yawls, former yatchs, sub-chasers, – anything that could float, lay waiting their turn to come to the wharves and load to their gunnels with cases of Johnny Walker, Black and White, and Gordon Gin. The docks were alive with activity. Scores of negroes wheeled the cases alongside and scores more lifted them aboard to the stirring chants of "Mama Don' Want No Peas No Rice And Coconut Oil" and "Ballymena." I was even approached by a suave individual who offered me a bonus of ten dollars a case if I would run some stuff over….

...We wandered about New Providence. There were afternoons at the Clonial, [sic] where we sipped our Planters Punches and watched tennis. There were rides out to Grants Town and other places of interest. There were evenings in the Bahamian Club where we tempted fortune at the green tables with the spinning wheels, generaly with the usual result. There were wonderful mornings of bathing at the superb beach on Hog Island acros the harbor. Here as one emerges from the sea there may be found a tiny palm thatched bar or, if his doctor has advised against it, he may eat grapefruit or organges on a stick, after the manner of lollipops. Nassau is colorful and lazy, and we hated to leave it."

Bold type is mine. The long quote is to give the reader some idea of the overall promotional nature/tone of the article (more titles than lyrics imo.)

[Heilner, Van Campen, "Beneath the Southern Cross, Part 1," Motor Boating, September, 1924, pp.68, 126]


Note: Neither of the two references posted here reflect Van Campen Heilner's analysis of the lyric as mentioned by Cowley, so I'm guessing it was added to the 1930 Southern Cross book when the above was reprinted (Boston: Gorham Press). I've never read that volume.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:09 AM

"I would like to dwell on the glorious days in Nassau, but it would take a volume in which to tell of them. There were memorable days when we explored New Providence in quaint little carriages, our Ethiopian mentor pointing out the "places of interest" with his buggy whip. There were mornings spent on the bathing beaches of Hog Island, where the swimming is only equaled by that in Hawaii. There were nights in the gaily-lit ballroom of the "Colonial" or mingling with the gorgeous Birds of Paradise at the Bahamian Club, where fools risked fortunes and impassioned groups leaned breathlessly across the spinning wheels and watched them won and lost. And always back to the snug little cabin of the Nepenthe, while across the waters would come floating in the marvelous "close harmony" of the West Indian Negro the song which is known to all who have ever visited Nassau:

"My mama don't want no peas, no rice,
        and cocoanut oil-
"My mama don't want no peas, no rice,
        and cocoanut oil-
"My mama don't want no peas, no rice,
        and co-coa-nut oy-il!
All she want's a brandy champy after nine."


[Heilner, Van Campen, Adventures in Angling: A Book of Salt Water Fishing, (Cincinnati: Stewart Kidd Co., 1922, pp.227-228)]

The lyric to Ballymena follows right after this quote (see link to thread above.)

Note: Cowley writes Heilner collected the lyric around 1924 but cites the 1930 book for his source. The 1922 quote above is what I have as first appearance in print attributed to the author (full 1924 "Under the Southern Cross" citation as it originally appeared in the serial form to follow.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 02:14 AM

Aaaaand along those very lines, been having a bit of trouble posting things lately so have focused on other stuff not on Mudcat at all or less popular/more in need of update than this one. Much of it is from the same original sources.

Bally Mena

Abaco is Pretty

The earliest lyric I have for Peas an' Rice is already posted in the latter thread. Couldn't figure out how to parse the citation into two threads/posts.

It appeared on the 22 August 1921, New York Herald front page (above the fold) under the headline 10,000 Cases of Liquor Shipped to U.S. Weekly from Bahamas Islands; credited to a "staff correspondent" and copyright to the Herald. It's the same paper the Hoist up the John B. Sails campaign display ads were running in.

I'm still hunting down a near identical quote that appears in one of the c.1923 H. de Winton Wigley articles on Gertrude "Cleo" Lythgoe (aka: The Bahama Queen - friend of Bill "Real" McCoy and a pretty fair bootlegger in her own right.) We know Wigley was in the Bahamas and Florida at the same time the 1921 Herald article was published.

Also forgot to mention I posted the 1938 IOCA Song-Fest book version in the brandy handy all the time? thread sometime back.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 01:32 AM

James: &c &c.

Bay Street, Nassau was Tin Pan Alley (Bahamian sub-genre = Goombay.)

Your alternative is a 'folk process' on the 1900-1950 Bahamian equivalent of the Las Vegas Strip or New Jersey Boardwalk. Zora Neale Hurston (folklorist) and Gertrude "Bahama Queen" Lythgoe (bootlegger) boarded at the same Bay Street hotel (The Lucerne, D. Donnelle, prop., the same location Lomax recorded Bellamina in 1935.)

Just find the Peas an' Rice references that are not on Bay Street, Nassau and post them here as I have done for all the TPA stuff. And if you're going to remark on the great American recordings don't obfuscate who the composers of record were (see Cowley, Saunders et al.) Simple really.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,James Fryer
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 12:05 PM

You brought Tin Pan Alley into it: "the true original is straight Tin Pan Alley, no chaser."

I think we've established that the song was in circulation well in advance of the 1932 copyright date and we'll need to draw our own conclusions from that. But it seems quite a large chaser to me.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 03:14 AM

'Bahamian'-v-'Tin Pan Alley'

Craton-Saunders on Lofthouse and the goombay era in general:

"This irresistibly danceable rhythm to mildly satirical or salacious lyrics probably originated among strolling barefoot players such as Philip Brice of Fox Hill and the ukulele-playing Shorty-the-Serenader in the 1920s. Curiously, it was taken up (and given some respectability) by a talented member of the white elite, Charles Lofthouse, who wrote the popular "Bahama Mama" and "Goombay Papa, Beat the Drum Again" in the 1930s."

[Craton, Michael, Saunders, Gail, Islanders in the Stream, Athens: U. of Georgia Press, 1998, pp.478-79]

Lofthouse was not a lyricist. If we're talking satirical or salacious where is L. Wolfe Gilbert and Tin Pan Alley? If the butcher of the Peanut Vendor is involved it's not just relevant. It is the subject. This and T. Rommen's treatment of the Gilbert, Lofthouse and Alice Simms legacies in Funky Nassau is on par with the usual 'Harry Belafonte's Yellow Bird' on the Haitian front.

IMO the majority of the difference in Bahamian-v-TPA is packaging and labels. Where do you need to place Charles Lofthouse or J. Rosamond Johnson… and why?


RE that and: "I did note the similarity to "Mama don't 'low" in an earlier message."

Helen Louise Dillet Johnson

Gentlereaders this is the face of a mother that did not allow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,James Fryer
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 05:10 AM

Your last message seems more in support of a Bahamian origin than Tin Pan Alley? Perhaps we will agree in the end after all.

I did note the similarity to "Mama don't 'low" in an earlier message.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 08:16 AM

More Cowley on "Peas and Rice":

Recorded Bahamian Repertoire and the U.S.A. — 1920s – 30s

"Inevitably, there was movement of songs in the other direction. A useful example of the adoption and adaptation of West Indian repertoire is the Bahamian song Mama Don't Want No Peas and Rice, as a formal arrangement has become known. This bears some resemblance to the black American barrelhouse piece Mama Don't 'Low, adapted for the mayoral campaign of 'Boss Crump' in Memphis, Tennessee in 1909 and recorded by several bluesmen. Perhaps a Caribbean reworking of the earlier composition, Mama Don't Want No Peas and Rice is best remembered in jazz circles for recordings by white bandleader Mart Britt and his Orchestra (Victor 22933 / Bluebird B4955, recorded 1932) and Cleo Brown (Decca 512, recorded 1935) Most familiar is the blues rendition by Jimmy Rushing with the Count Basie Orchestra (Decca 2030, recorded in New York City on 6 June 1938). The Bahamian lyric probably originated during the First World War. At least, this was the view of Van Campen Heilner, who collected a version entitled Coconut Oil (A Song of the Bahama Islands) in about 1924:

        My mammy don't want no peas, no rice, no coconut oil! (3x)
        All she wants a brandy shandy after nine!

During the war the natives of the Bahamas found it extremely difficult to get butter, lard or fat of any kind and the majority of cooking was done in coconut oil. They soon got sick of it and the saying 'My mammy don't want no peas and rice with coconut oil' gave rise to the song. A 'brandy shandy' can be either a drink or a 'hot time'.

His variant was published in 1930 but, with the substitution of Papa for Mammy and other minor differences, had been printed a year earlier by Amelia Defries:

        Papa don't want no peas nor rice nor coconut oil, (2x)
        All he wants is sugar brandy [sic] all the time.

The composed rendition (as sung by Rushing), was not registered for copyright until 1931 in the names of L. Wolfe Gilbert (words), L. Charles and J. Rosamond Johnson (melody).

Working in Florida during the 1930s, the celebrated black American folklorist Zora Neale Hurston recorded a version of this song for the Library of Congress. She attributes its origin to Nassau, New Providence Island in the Bahamas, describing it as a husband's explanation to the neighbors what is the matter with his wife and why they don't get along better."

[Robert Springer, ed., "Nobody Knows Where the Blues Came From": Lyrics and History, West Indies Blues: an historical overview 1920s – 1950s — blues and music from the English-speaking West Indies, Cowley, John, Jackson, University Press of Mississippi, 2006, pp. 187-263]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:54 AM

"I think in the end we'll need to agree to disagree..."

Mudcat: The Astor Opera House of social media ;)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: James Fryer
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 08:12 AM

I don't see how any of that tips the scales either way. I would like to see the Pashley lyrics. Although it would not prove anything, they would enable me (and others) to make an informed decision based on their closeness to the 1932 version.

As I'm sure you are aware, many songwriters from the West Indies and elsewhere had a practice of copyrighting folk songs under their own name, and it's this I think happened here, although I accept there is room for doubt.

I think in the end we'll need to agree to disagree but if you have the lyrics I'd be very appreciative.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 06:55 AM

That Gilbert & Lofthouse were ghost-writing for the Bahamas Development Board was an open secret that seems to have gotten lost in the post-colonial shuffle. The Board solicitor at the time was a very young Stafford Lofthouse Sands who would go on to great notoriety for his dealings with Meyer Lansky in the 1960s.

Pashley supposedly "collected" it from H. de Winton Wigley (British journalist) who, again supposedly, ghost-wrote a series of cornball articles on Bahamian bootlegging that appeared the N.Y. Herald c.1921.

Wigley is also the earliest reference for "I Want To Go To Abaco" which also appears in the 1935 Lomax Collection (Abaco is a Pretty Place, Bahamas Vol.#2, 2002, Rounder Records, 82161-1832-2) and Delia Gone is on there too! Small world eh?

Wigley's series got turned into a book (With the Whiskey Smugglers, London: Daily News Ltd, 1923) but I can't remember now if the snippets of lyrics appear there as well. I have the 1921 newsclippings in storage. I'll swing by in the next couple of days and see if I can find those too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: James Fryer
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 10:18 AM

I'd certainly be interested to see what Mrs Pashley transcribed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 03:29 AM

"So is your argument that..."

"Sorry didn't catch that before…." Is me saying the Gilbert quote had absolutely nothing to do with Defries/Pashley. It's was actually meant to be 1-of-2 on Gilbert's "authenticity" in general. Let's reboot:

(btw: It was 1934 and beyond Irving B. & George G. there was brother Ira and all three of the ladies along for the holiday. George wasn't in the best of health but nobody suspected just how soon his time would come.)

2-of-2 on the "authentic" L. Wolfe Gilbert:

"You want to know something? I haven't seen a levee yet. The opening line of my "Waiting for the Robert E. Lee" (written in 1912) reads, "Way down on the levee in old Alabamy." I found out only recently there are no levees in Alabamy. But the South ain't mad at me, and the song is a favorite in Dixie to this day. Besides, Alabamy, Mammy, and levee, they all rhymed!...

...I've probably written more lyrics than anyone for Latin-American composers (whom I've never met), containing Spanish locales and color. Yet, I don't speak the language; I was never in Spain, and never had a Latin sweetheart, although I did go to the casino at Agua Caliente, via Tia Juana, once, and was in Havana, twice, for a day. If that's enough for inspiration – I had it."

It was on the first of those Havana layovers that Gilbert first met Eliso Grenet; Ernesto Lecuona and Moses Simons face-to-face, long after all four had made a ton of money off his "American" lyrics.

As far as we know L. Wolfe Gilbert never made it to the Bahamas at all. And even then Gilbert is only claiming the lyrics. Lofthouse wrote(?) the music and they published jointly.

Remember too, this is only one of several period Gilbert-Lofthouse collaborations. The "official" sheet music for "That Tropical Charmer, Bahama Mama (That Goombay Tune) came out in 1932 as well. Further speculating on all the variables of what you were speculating on just makes my head hurt. I'm off to track down Defries, Pashley & Co.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: James Fryer
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 09:40 AM

So is your argument that Gilbert/Charles wrote the song some time before 1929, it was performed in the Bahamas, entered the folk process there and was later collected by Mrs Pashley?

This seems far less certain than it being copyrighted in 1932. If they published it in the 20s why didn't they copyright it then? After all, any of these musicians on your hypothetical cruise ship could have taken it for themselves.

Sure there was cultural traffic between the West Indies and the US but this went both ways. It's as possible the song was originally a folk song and was picked up by the songwriters on a trip as it is the other way round. You don't date your Berlin/Gershwin anecdote but I bet it is after 1932. And the source is hardly impartial!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 10:37 PM

Actually the most damning evidence against the Bahamian version being "authentic" is Russian-American Wolfe Gilbert didn't know about Peas an' Grits.... Rice was for big island townfolk.

"Peas" are pigeon or field peas, usually with some fat/garden veggie/herbs for flavor. "Grits" are either from millet or flint corn, fairly plain seasoning by comparison:

http://rouxbdoo.blogspot.com/2015/01/field-peas-and-grits.html

Only thing missing there is a half-dozen conch fritters or an unfortunate crustacean.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 10:33 PM

James: "...Mrs. Alice Pashley in Amelia Defries, "The Fortunate Islands"..."

Sorry didn't catch that before. Both individuals were from the same school as Richard Le Gallienne's work in Harper's, "Hoist the John B. Sail," &c though I couldn't say for certain either of the ladies were getting their family vacations directly "comped" by the Development Board as was Le Gallienne. May be a minute but I'm pretty sure I can lay my hands on a copy and post the lyrics here.

The media has all changed but it's still standard practice to some extent. The Wolfe/Gilbert version of "Delia Gone" appeared in the 1927 McCutcheon songbook already billed as the Bahamian "Frankie & Johnny" years before 'formal' publishing. The process of trying a song out on cruise ships or in Nassau's local "over-the-hill" clubs wasn't all that different from American vaudeville's "dink circuit."

btw: Two of Wolfe's very early songs "Good Night, Good Night" and "The Man with the Pick and the Shovel" (c.1923) were published by the Bert Williams owned and operated Gotham-Attucks Music Company.

The more you process Nassau (and later Freeport) as the southeastern terminus of the North American ballroom and chitlin' circuits and not some culturally isolated backwater the better off you'll be. Even then it's still like one author wrote… trying to describe a peacock from just looking at a skeleton.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 05:06 PM

12
Native Music Preferred

One time Irving Berlin and George Gershwin left on a vacation to the Bahama Islands with Nassau as their destination. These two outstanding contributors to the American musical scene went for a much needed rest, and were not interested in hearing radio, or any other performances of their works. They wanted to relax and enjoy the balmy weather and sunshine.

On board ship was a small-string orchestra, augmented by native instrumentalists. When these Bahamans found out that Gershwin and Berlin were aboard, the proceeded to salute them daily with renditions of their works.

Irving and George were completely disgusted with this, and finally, one of them, I don't know which, said to the orchestra leader: "Never mind playing our American songs. Why don't you give us some native music? That would be a relief, and we'd really enjoy it."

The bandleader proceeded to instruct the orchestra, and they went into a rendition of the well-known song of the Bahamas- "Mama Don't Want No Peas and Rice, and Cocoanut Oil."

Both composers agreed that this was more like it. When the band finished, one of the little coloured boys who dive into the ocean for coins came up and offered for sale copies of the song. George and Irving each gave the lad a couple of dollars and purchased a copy. When they looked on the title page they read: "Lyrics by L. Wolfe Gilbert!"

[Gilbert, L. Wolfe, Without Rhyme or Reason (New York: Vantage, 1956, Chap.12, p.217)]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,James Fryer
Date: 12 Feb 16 - 06:03 AM

The collection "Peter was a Fisherman" (Rounder CD 1114) has a version collected in Toco, Trinidad in 1939. The liner notes say:

Raymond Quevado (Attila the Hun) notes this song as "travelling down the islands from the Bahamas to Barbados and then to Trinidad" [...] (Atilla's Kaiso). The song probably originated in the Commonwealth of the Bahamas during World War I, when cooking oil was difficult to obtain and the majority of cooking was done with local coconut oil. The song entered mainstream US popular music in the early 1930s. Most versions outside the Caribbean appear to be based on US commercial recordings such as Count Basie's [from] 1938. [...] Print versions include one in '"Negro Songs" taken Down by Mrs. Alice Pashley' in Amelia Defries, "The Fortunate Islands" (London: Cecil Palmer, 1929, p. xxi)

The last point in particular shows that the song was in circulation in the West Indies prior to the 1932 recording.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: Janie
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 03:29 PM

Thanks Uncle Phil. My first post was in error re origins, I had seen that it was a 1932 song by Gilbert-Charles. My second post was on the fly and so wasn't much of a correction. It was the West Indies connection I didn't get, and you cleared that up for me nicely.

And you're right, leeneia. Definitely a fun recording.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 11:50 AM

here's a fun video, once they get done passing the ciggie around and start playing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0f4YJyr3bg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 12:17 AM

"Bahama Mama" (New York: Shapiro, Bernstein & Co., 1932) is yet another Gilbert-Lofthouse goombay that shows up on later "authentic" Bahamian recordings.

http://www.worldcat.org/title/that-tropical-charmer-bahama-mama-that-goombay-tune/oclc/10153456

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 12:07 AM

"So, what is the origin?"
Gilbert-Charles, 1932. Nassau, NP and NYC. Copyright published in the U.S. Congressional Record just like everything else they wrote from 1912 on. "Charles" was one of the pen names of Charles Leonard Lofthouse of Nassau, NP. Gilbert was Russian-American Louis Wolfe Gilbert
(See post at 27 May 15 - 10:12 PM.)


"Nothing to indicate it is traditional, or from the West Indies"
Traditional? Lofthouse was a member of the white "elite" (a grocer and dry goods merchant by trade; peas, rice and oil incl.) and Gilbert was straight Brill Building, TPA. A double disqualification on Mudcat one would think.

West Indian? Lofthouse (lyric) was born and raised Bahamian, second gen. Wolfe (music) was a naturalized American citizen. Whatevs.


Conch Trivia:
Charlie's father was Senior Methodist Missionary to all of the Bahamas (1827-67) after a four year apprenticeship in Mahaica (1828-31.) Both Charlie and his younger brother Alex were Wesleyan elders right through all the 19th century American field recording sessions (Charters/Lomax/et al.) It would be hard to overestimate the Lofthouse family's cultural influence on Bahamian gospel and hymn field recordings of that period.

Cousin Stafford Lofthouse Sands (who ran with American Meyer Lansky's mob) was the head of the Bahamian Tourist Board that really promoted the bejabbers out of "authentic" goombay-junkanoo music written by Charlie and another pro; American Alice D. Simms. Their commerical "Lomax" if you will, was former CBS television-sound engineer Harold E. Doane; founder of Miami, FL based American Recording and Transcription Service, Inc. (aka ART Records and others.)

Best online resource for Alice Simms (go figure):
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/music-search/music-songs-composers%20-%200559.htm