Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:06 PM

Re Charley Noble's post (May 09) we always sang '...in the Quartermaster's Stores' not 'corps'. (This was in the early fifties, not long after the War)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:09 PM

Phil, show me the reference that says these songs are from the bay street boys? I will be waiting! The Bay Street Boys are Bahamians, if you read pieces of eight by RICHARD LE GALLIENNE "There were far more blacks than whites down on Bay Street".

First you claimed these songs were made by the yanks now you are saying they were made by the Bahamian Bay Street Boys? Without providing an actual source to prove it?

Is that what discography is? lol

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:00 PM

And let me put into context for the intellectuals among us.

An American wouldn't come here and compose music about peas n rice and coconut oil, that would make absolutely no sense and the bay street boys wouldn't compose these songs, for obvious reasons.

If it was for tourist reasons songs would of been more along the lines of paradise and relaxation, not about indigenous cultural life among the common people, lol.

The only song that you can mention that doesn't fall in this category is the John B sails which may very well have originated among white or mixed Bahamians. However the narrative of the song is still entirely folk Bahamian and not a tourist based songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:18 PM

To paraphrase the record executive: "We don't make culture we make records."

Making a record doesn't mean you produced songs, making a record is talking about compiling and worthy selection of songs to release for the market.

As I have posted they did not write produce any of the songs they simply recorded the music of live bands that they considered good.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:48 AM

RE: Lofthouse in France,

"Should you have met, quite by chance while down in Nassau, the composer, Charlie Lofthouse, you would find yourself chatting agreeably about tourists, about music, about fellow Bahamians and last, but certainly not least, his stories of four years of gay life in Paris. In these years he studied voice and classical music but not so intensely as to interfere with his existence in the Quarter Latin. He obviously became an expert writer of calypso music and moreover he knew how to have fun."

The Goombay Troubadours, Bahama Lullaby: and other Bahamian Calypsos (Goombay) Composed by Charlie Lofthouse, Island Artists, Ltd., LP-1005, 1957, Liner notes [uncredited].

There are other mentions elsewhere. Lots of familiar tunes on this one but it isn't just from Bay Street. Lofthouse was a Bay Street Boy, second generation.

There is also an English Charles Thornton Lofthouse, harpsichordist. Nassau's middle name was "Leonard."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:37 AM

"Should you have met, quite by chance while down in Nassau, the composer, Charlie Lofthouse, you would find yourself chatting agreeably about tourists, about music, about fellow Bahamians and last, but certainly not least, his stories of four years of gay life in Paris. In these years he studied voice and classical music but not so intensely as to interfere with his existence in the Quarter Latin. He obviously became an expert writer of calypso music and moreover he knew how to have fun."

Is there a place I can read it for myself on the internet?

If this is the case it does make a stronger case for the claim made by Heilner, Van Campen in 1922 of the tune being a tune in Paris as you have stated.

However this doesn't prove it because even doe he copyrighted peas n rice in 1931, a song which has been documented since 1921 he never copyrighted the Ballymena, so if this was his song, why didn't he copyright it along with peas n rice?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:38 AM

Also do you have a date for the 4 years he was in Paris?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM

And Charles Lofthouse grandfather was a missionary from England. News flash most white Bahamians ancestry is from England, my ancestors from Long Island are Burrows and my earliest ancestor from that line originally settled in Long Island directly from England. I have another white lineage from Abaco, The Russell's. They were spongers who lived on Cave Cay in Abaco but I don't know if they were Loyalist or the original Russell settlers who were here before Woodes Rogers even arrived.

I know Lofthouse was a Bahamian. That is not the argument, you are claiming it is a tourist narrative associated with the Bay street boys and also claiming that Yanks made the songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:21 AM

So your claims are Bahamians don't have any Folksongs.
Yanks were involved in their creation.
It was only the Bay Street Elite who had access to the John B.
Tourist Narrative.
The support of the development board promoting music occured during the height of Calypso music in the 30's to 50's. All the songs we talking about predates the 30's.

Interesting also that Charles Lofthouse copyrighted Peas n Rice in 1931, not that he created the song, but he may have put his own twist on it.

As I would point out again, We have evidence from Amelia Defries in 1916 stating that Black Bahamians had bands playing their own natively composed songs.

Earliest mention of the song is 1921, lofthouse copyrighted 10 years later.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

We also know that the Black Bahamian Austin Ira Destoup, arranged a piece for the Ballymena that he published in a book called Grants town melodies in 1927. We also know that he wrote a song to encourage Bahamians to join the West Indies Regiment to assist in WW! in 1917.

So blacks like I stated are already composing songs and writing them at this time and much earlier.

https://bahamianology.com/hice-up-the-john-b-sail-by-austin-ira-destoup-1927/

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:38 PM

Do you people ever stop trying to steal other peoples culture? Yes our culture made an impact on American society.

That is reality, and no matter how much lies you continue to tell yourself to come to grips with that, you simply just need to grow up and stop making up nonsense.

If by now you still can't accept you are wrong, then it is what it is.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM

somebody is getting pretty emotional here . . .

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:18 PM

I am an emotional person, but I can still speak the facts. He makes a lot of claims yet most of them are unfounded. The best case he can argue is the John B and even then he can't prove that the song wasn't already in The Bahamas predating the 1903 reference(which by the way I can't find.) As far as I personally have been able to confirm is that of richard le gallienne mentioning in a 1916 article. Which I haven't read as of yet.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM

"I am an emotional person, but I can still speak the facts.... Which I haven't read as of yet."

Oy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:29 PM

"Oy"
I agree 100%
Shake head, walk on.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:47 PM

Phil with the John B I have recognized the claim of a 1903 existence but I haven't read it yet, do you have a screen capture of it?

This has nothing to do with facts, as I have admitted I haven't seen it, so that is a stupid comparison.

I asked you to provide the sources for the Baystreet boys being the originators of said songs or Americans, or that the song John B was only widespread among the baystreet elite.

Can you assist me with any source that claims these statements are true or is this a narrative you made up yourself?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:56 PM

I have actually found a song copyrighted by Lofthouse in 1913 called Dear heart I know, which is a waltz ballad. Dear heart I know sounds like a song that would come from the bay street Elite.

And this to me makes absolute sense.

https://archive.org/stream/catalogofcopyri91libr#page/68/mode/2up/search/Charles+Leonard+Lofthouse

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:03 PM

He later adopted the black style of music in the 1930's because of their popularity.

This is also the view of Gail Saunders and Michael Craton.

"Curiously it was taken up(and given some respectability) by a talented member of the white elite, Charles lofthouse, who wrote the popular "Bahama Mama" and "Goombay Pappa, Beat the Drum again" in the 1930's." Islanders in the Stream: A History of the Bahamian People. Vol. 2: From the Ending of Slavery to the Twenty-First Century. By Michael Craton and Gail Saunders. Pg. 478

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:01 PM

I'm a guest here, but this song is familiar to me from a late 30's recording by Jimmy Rushing with the Count Basie band. Lyrics are quite similar to those already shown back when this thread originated. Will be glad to transcribe and post, if anyone is interested.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:45 PM

I have discovered the creator of the song Peas and Rice and Coconut oil. It was a Black Bahamian by the name of Bert Cambridge. He formed the earliest professional Bahamian band, called the Cambridge Orchestra in 1923. He later became a member of the Chocolate Dandies in the 1930's, which including the future King of Goombay, George Symonette. He also was the composer of Do Ann Anny Do

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Emmie
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:47 AM

And this fact proves exactly my entire point. Just because some white boys copyrighted some songs that they encountered in The Bahamas doesn't mean they created it. That is a foolish way of thinking that probably originated in America.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,anonymous
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 10:11 AM

The earliest published work from Charles Lofthouse is "When de silver lantern's lighted" lyrics by Julia Warner Michael in 1910. These lyrics are found in "Native Nassau" a book of poetry by Julia Warner Michael in 1904.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mama Don't Want No Peas an' Rice an' ...
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 03:09 PM

Interesting!

Same lyricist as 1911's Winds of Dawn and same year as his lesson book.

One correction to a previous post: Charles L. Lofthouse was Sir Stafford Lofthouse Sands' uncle not his cousin. The extended family controlled a very large slice of the Bahamian (tourist) economy after the Flager System sold out. The old place on Marlborough Street in Nassau is still at it.

And, fwiw, Uncle Charley would be one quarter "Castellano" or "Peninsulari" on his mother's side which is "White" in the islands but "Hispanic" Stateside. So he's either a young person of colour or a white boy depending on the when and where of the observer.

Still looking for his mysterious connection to the American version of Peanut Vendor.