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fRoots magazine and folk clubs

Faye Roche 12 May 09 - 09:58 AM
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Subject: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Faye Roche
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:58 AM

I stopped buying fRoots magazine some time ago, but I glanced through a copy that I found in my newsagents's last week and was surprised to see the subject of the editor's comment. Unless I dreamed the whole experience, he was extolling the virtues of small venues, which would seem, by definition, to include folk clubs.

Why I was surprised is that, reading this magazine, you could very easily get the impression that the UK folk scene either does not exist, or that the editor hates it with such a passion that he deliberately ignores it. (Apart from the Magpie's Nest, which isn't really a folk club!)

The magazine's focus seems to be split between African music (nothing wrong with that- it's good that it gets this kind of exposure, though there is also some great indigenous music from other countries, such as my homeland, Australia, for example) and the latest cute young Radio 2 Folk Award winners. Nothing wrong with that either, though some of them are vastly overrated in my humble opinion.

But... there is a lot of exciting music happening in folk clubs, with some unknown young bands who can knock spots off many of the award winners. fRoots must have a good circulation, as it is a lavishly- presented magazine that is available nationwide (and internationally for all I know.) To finance it, there must be a fair number of people who have enough enthusiasm for this music. Wouldn't it be nice if the magazine visited the folk roots of its home country as well?

I can't help thinking that if we had a good national folk magazine the club scene would be a lot healthier and less fragmented. If, for example, performances by new artists were sometimes reviewed, so that the said artists could benefit from wider exposure, wouldn't that be a good thing? There are quite a few young performers trying to break into the scene at the moment- how nice it would be if they could be more publicised; it might even draw a new generation of listeners into the scene.

BTW, I'm not grinding my own axe- I've retired from the circuit for now owing to pressures of work. But there are some astoundingly good new performers around, and it's a pity that the one national magazine in the UK chooses to ignore them.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:01 AM

Yes, I gave up on Froots long ago for similar reasons.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Guest: folkandroots
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:05 AM

I possibly shouldnt ask but I just wondered why you described the Magpies Nest as not really a folk club (not a criticism or disagreement with your description necessarily but just curious), as in my experience it follows the same structure as a number of other clubs/nights?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:09 AM

the one national magazine in the UK

What about The Living Tradition?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:15 AM

Faye, if you don't know it already, have a look at Living Tradition magazine.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:19 AM

Ian Anderson detests folk clubs and British ones in particular. Also, fRoots is about commercially recorded music, not grassroots performers (from anywhere) who aren't going to buy advertising.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:23 AM

I once got the phrase finger-fuck foreplay published in the letters page of of the Jan/Feb 1991 double issue Nos. 91/92 in a lette which also name-checked Sun Ra & Jim Eldon in the same sentence.

Respect.

Suibhne O'Piobaireachd

Hmmm - now there's an idea...


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Faye Roche
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:42 AM

Sorry, no time to log in just now so I have to be quick...

The Magpie's is not a folk club as I would define it. I've been there twice and left halfway through both times. The organisers obviously have a knack for attracting an audience, but I prefer to listen to folk music without the accompaniment of people having shouted conversations across the bar or jabbering down their mobiles.

If that's your thing, fine, though I think it's a pity that what could have been a good club has become nothing more a drinking venue with live music. If that's the future of folk clubs then I'll give them a miss thank you.

The Living Tradition is a good magazine, but it's not nationally distributed is it? I've only ever seen it for sale in a few folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:42 AM

"Apart from the Magpie's Nest, which isn't really a folk club!"

Disagree with you there. I'd almost go so far as to say you were wrong.

"reading this magazine, you could very easily get the impression that the UK folk scene either does not exist, or that the editor hates it with such a passion that he deliberately ignores it."

Disagree with you there. I'd almost go so far as to say you were wrong.

"Wouldn't it be nice if the magazine visited the folk roots of its home country as well?"

I would say it does.

"fRoots is about commercially recorded music, not grassroots performers (from anywhere) who aren't going to buy advertising"

Its focus might be on recorded music - in that way it's no different from the vast majority of other music magazines on earth – but I think the implication behind the reference to advertising is a little snide. Particularly as the issues of fRoots I've read contain many of the names – big or small – I see cropping up regularly on the programmes of British folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:44 AM

Ultimately, I think the original post here is essentially way off the mark.

I agree in the sense that it would be very nice to have a magazine geared to live reviews; I used to really enjoy reading the live reviews in Melody Maker and NME when I was a teen and I'm disappointed at the focus of most music mag – relegating live reviews to a page or a spread.

But, instead of knocking fRoots for not being the magazine you'd like it to be, why don't you start your own? You don't like its coverage? Well, a blog won't cost you anything but your time.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Faye Roche
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:48 AM

Really must go now...

Matt, I don't remember ever seeing any reference to any UK performer outside the Carthy/Lakeman/Hardy/Rusby/Bellowhead/etc. circle. (Not knocking these artists btw- I like some of them.) I've never seen any reviews of folk club gigs.

I'd love to be proved wrong though! leave some examples here and I'll be back.

BTW, re the Magpie's, if you disagree with me that's your perogative. See my earlier reply.

Duty calls- back to work.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Faye Roche
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:52 AM

"instead of knocking fRoots for not being the magazine you'd like it to be, why don't you start your own?"

I knew that was coming!!!

I don't like most of the output of all the TV channels either. What should I do about that???

Actually, I have thought about starting an online magazine- just don't have time. And I believe that a magazine that claims to be devoted to roots music should cover just that- a cross-section of roots music from everywhere, not just the editor's preference.

Aargh- can't stay any longer, much as I'd like to.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,folkandroots
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:52 AM

"Sorry, no time to log in just now so I have to be quick...

The Magpie's is not a folk club as I would define it. I've been there twice and left halfway through both times. The organisers obviously have a knack for attracting an audience, but I prefer to listen to folk music without the accompaniment of people having shouted conversations across the bar or jabbering down their mobiles.

If that's your thing, fine, though I think it's a pity that what could have been a good club has become nothing more a drinking venue with live music. If that's the future of folk clubs then I'll give them a miss thank you.

The Living Tradition is a good magazine, but it's not nationally distributed is it? I've only ever seen it for sale in a few folk clubs."

I've no idea what its other arrangements are but LT is certainly available in many Borders stores although I suspect they could get a bigger distribution but these things cost money, resources etc.

Re - the Magpies Nest it was a genuine question, and I accept that it can be annoying there at times with the noise you mention but on the other hand I think you exaggerate a little, and its certainly the case that the majority of the (mostly youngish) audience are there to listen to the performers. I just wondered if there was something about the format of their events you had an issue with.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Smedley
Date: 12 May 09 - 10:53 AM

The cover story in a recent issue of fRoots was about a number of 'up and coming' British folk performers.

Unless they don't count as 'folk enough'.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:05 AM

Ian A Anderson has run Folk Clubs himself in the past , and froots WAS originally Folk Roots whch grew out of Southern Rag , a local magazinea covering mostly Hants , Surrey and Berks , so if the magazine has NOT met your wishes , as a magazine , is that their fault ?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:15 AM

Well, I certainly manage to find reviews of up-and-coming folk artists in fRoots. Obviously not all of them, there wouldn't be room, but a good variety. Plus a lot of stuff about artists from other countries, a very well-rounded mag I would have thought. It obviously isn't exactly to my taste in every last detail, but it wouldn't be, would it? I think it's an excellent publication, and consistently so over many many years. Fair play to Ian A and his colleagues.
It obviously doesn't cover folk clubs in depth, but there's no reason why it should as far as I can see.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:16 AM

"Unless they don't count as 'folk enough'."

That's exactly it, Smedley, you've hit the nail right on the head. Some of the individuals and bands featured in fRoots have attained a certain level of commercial success, therefore, and to use a tried but trueism, in some people's eyes have `sold out` to `the establishment` I wonder if one of the testimonials for fRoots, by the esteemed individual, Robert Plant, is one of the roots, so to speak, of the discontent among the Cry Sell Out crowd? (indeed, in my opinion Mr. Plant is more folk than many so called folkies I've met).

I'll continue reading fRoots as long as Ian Anderson (no not that one!!)continues to edit and publish it.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:17 AM

Faye Roche wrote
you could very easily get the impression that the UK folk scene either does not exist, or that the editor hates it with such a passion that he deliberately ignores it.


Why, then has he been seen several times in recent years in the folk club that I run in Lewes, more than fifty miles from where he lives. He even did a gig there last year with Lu Edmonds and Ben Mandelson last year - and one of the best nights of the season it was.

Faye Roche wrote
(Apart from the Magpie's Nest, which isn't really a folk club!)


Why ever not? Please explain! Recent guest list there includes The Copper Family, Belshazzar's Feast, Ben Paley and Tab Hunter, Sara Grey & Keiron Means, Faustus, Jim Moray, Tom Paley, Ken Lansbury, Spiers & Boden. If the Magpie's Nest isn't a folk club, then neither is ours at the Royal Oak at Lewes, because these are the same people that we book. Could it be that the Magpie's Nest isn't really a folk club because - horror of horrors - it is run by young people who want to do it their own way?

Faye Roche wrote
the latest cute young Radio 2 Folk Award winners. Nothing wrong with that either, though some of them are vastly overrated in my humble opinion.


I'm afraid that this is a very unfortunate ageist statement. Surely if we don't get enthusiast and talented young people into folk clubs then the whole movement is going to die. One of our best nights in Lewes this year was presented by a 19-year old in a duo with a 14-year old (see a photo of them in action at http://froots.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4307) . We didn't book them because they were "cute" and "young", we booked them because they were superb musicians and singers and that is what we are after.

Faye Roche wrote
Wouldn't it be nice if the magazine visited the folk roots of its home country as well?


I'm afraid that this statement is a straightforward untruth. There is always a high proportion of articles on British artists - I, myself, have written articles on very many in the last few years for fRoots on people ranging in age from Sam Lee to Reg Hall. In the current issue, the cover article is on two superb English singers, Ian King and Nancy Wallace and a mass of other up and comers and there are articles Eddi Reader, Rachael McShane of Bellowhead and Heidi Talbot. In the main review section there are reviews of 16 albums of British performers who perform British traditional song and dance music. Now, it is true that a proportion of these performers choose to perform outside the folk club scene, but if the attitude displayed by Faye is in any way typical, then is that surprising?
Another area that fRoots covers that no other does - Songlines included - is the traditional music of young people and groups from immigrant communities. Some of these that I have heard are of an extraordinary quality.

Faye Roche wrote
I can't help thinking that if we had a good national folk magazine the club scene would be a lot healthier and less fragmented. If, for example, performances by new artists were sometimes reviewed, so that the said artists could benefit from wider exposure, wouldn't that be a good thing? There are quite a few young performers trying to break into the scene at the moment- how nice it would be if they could be more publicised; it might even draw a new generation of listeners into the scene.


Again very unfair. Recently, I approached the fRoots editor with an idea for an article about someone who has been on the English folk scene for 40 years and I wanted to mark the acheivement. His reply was "Oh, go on then, but can't you write something about some of the exciting young performers that are coming through?" You have much more chance of getting into fRoots as an young folkie than as an old stager.

Fay Roche wrote
But there are some astoundingly good new performers around, and it's a pity that the one national magazine in the UK chooses to ignore them.


There are; it's a very exciting time for young performers coming into the music, and not surprisingly, they don't all want to approach it the folk club way and many of them have have had articles written on them in fRoots but sadly, for Faye, they are cute, young and have won awards.
*****
As for comparisons with another magazine The Living Tradition, it should not need more than a cursory glance through both to see that they are trying to do different tasks. I have written extensively for both magazines over the decades, but these days I do write much more for fRoots because it is plain to me that it is superior in design and in the standard of writing in the contributions.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:20 AM

Ian Anderson detests folk clubs and British ones in particular. Also, fRoots is about commercially recorded music, not grassroots performers (from anywhere) who aren't going to buy advertising.[quote]
I totally agree.
Ian A Anderson has run Folk Clubs himself in the past , and froots WAS originally Folk Roots whch grew out of Southern Rag , a local magazinea covering mostly Hants , Surrey and Berks , so if the magazine has NOT met your wishes , as a magazine , is that their fault ?[quote]
which club has he run?
he used to play in folk clubs,blues mainly, as a singer he wasnt a patch[imo] on Joanne Kelly or her brother Dave ,who were both great blues singer.
Pooter Sings The Blues.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:26 AM

By the way, it's Jo Ann Kelly

Jo Ann Kelly

with links to a couple of other sites featuring Jo Ann Kelly's work


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:31 AM

Oh yes, and there is this item

Louisiana Blues - Jo Ann Kelly


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:39 AM

Jack Campin wrote
fRoots is about commercially recorded music, not grassroots performers (from anywhere) who aren't going to buy advertising.


Well, why did he publish the articles that I have written for him in recent years on grassroots, non-commercial traditional performers that I have encountered in Egypt, Louisiana and The Gambia.
If you could see the extreme poverty of the compounds where people like Suntou Kouyate, Jali Sherrifo Konteh live, you would be amazed that they have the energy to devote to their vibrant music. The only albums that they have had released - and they are superb musicians - are the ones that I financed out of my retirement lump sum. Ian Anderson accepted articles on both of them - and I didn't have any money to advertise them.
The best band that I have heard in recent years was one I heard in The Gambia in February, the Sofa Nyama Band and I have an article on them in next month's fRoots. (no album, no advertising!) I was invited to the compounds of six of the eight members whilst I was there and if any Brits were to see their living conditions compared with ours and the enthusiasm that they have for their traditional music in spite of it, then they would surely be humbled.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions about fRoots but please get your facts straight in your accompanying comments.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Mitch2
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:45 AM

I haven't bothered with fRoots for years so I can't comment on its current content, but a quick glance at its website reveals that its past few issues have followed the usual theme: African music (which I like, by the way, but not to the exclusion of everything else), more African music, some other European artists (probably some good stuff in there as well, but...) and more African music. There does seem to be a cursory nod in the direction of a few new names that are unfamiliar to me in one recent edition, but I gave up on the magazine as it does give the impression that the editor has a deep-rooted dislike of English folk clubs and the musicians who play in them- until they win an award, that is. I agree, the movement needs a widely-available magazine along the lines of the old "Folk Review" (anyone remember that?).

Incidentally, I have met the erstwhile editor twice: once about 30 years ago when a friend of mine booked him into his club as a musician, and again about two years ago. I think I can honestly say that a ruder, more conceited, more arrogant individual would be hard to find.

Oh, and while we're at it, the Magpie's is my local. I haven't been there for a long time for the same reasons given in the original post. The format is fine, the choice of guests is good, and it's a good venue. Shame about the audience.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:48 AM

Maybe you should return to The Magpie, Mitch, then the audience will, at least, meet your exacting standards...


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jeri
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:49 AM

I used to get fRoots too and stopped because it was too expensive for me to buy something that wasn't to my taste. I think it's a good magazine and quite a few other people seem to as well.

This is like going into a packed club and discovering you don't like it, so instead of just leaving, you demand they change. It's not their problem, it's yours, and you don't look very bright when you publicly announce you want the world to change to suit your tastes.

                   ...well, you either appear to lack clue AND be willing to advertise it, or you appear to have an axe to grind.
I'm guessing it's the axe.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:00 PM

Captain Birdseye obvioulsly does NOT like Mr A , but for your informaion , Dick , before Hot Vultures , Ian ran a Blues club in Bristol and a mixed Folk Club in Weston Super Mare


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:12 PM

sorry if my posts sounded a bit tetchy, but I just didn't really recognise the magazine being described. The last two fRoots covers have had Nancy Wallace & Ian King and Mawkin Causley. I can remember a cover that had Bella Hardy on it not too long ago, shortly after she released her debut album.

The album review policy that they have, with the "quickie-mini-reviews" supplementing the in-depth ones, means that up-and-coming artists get page-space that they wouldn't get in other mags.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:17 PM

I also think that whoever complained about audience noise at the Magpie's Nest must have been simply highly unlucky in the night they attended. It just doesn't describe the experiences I've had there. Two occasions I've played floorspots there, if anything, I found the audience was a lot more atttentive than at plenty of other places. I've heard people play there totally unamplified. How would that be possible if it was the uncivil din of a place that was described?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:19 PM

Leadfingers wrote :-
Ian ran a Blues club in Bristol and a mixed Folk Club in Weston Super Mare

Then when he lived in the Guildford area, he ran an excellent folk club there - and who remembers the wonderful Farnham Folk Days that he organised? What about all the years he and Maggie ran an agency, efficiently arranging bookings for many of the top names on the folk club scene? What about all the fine albums of British folk acts on the various labels that he has run over the years starting off all those years ago with "Village Thing"? Who produced the best recorded album that The Copper Family ever made? His drive and enthusiasm have been second to none and he seems to get nothing like the credit he deserves for this.

However, he broadened his horizons to find that there are fascinating traditional musics beyond the British Isles and the USA and reflected this in the magazine that he edits. Result? He regularly gets slagged off on Mudcat and elsewhere in the British folk scene. Is this fair?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:25 PM

Matt

I regularly attend the Nest and Sam and Joe have done an extremely good job with the place and its offshoots, however there is sometimes a problem with people who wander up from downstairs to chat and play with their mobile phones but it is a small minority and the vast majority of attendees are there to listen


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:42 PM

Great magazine, fRoots. Considering it has an entire globe to cover, these tiny islands do relatively well.

If you want a magazine that concentrates almost entirely on UK folk, try Living Tradition or English Dance and Song. Both of them are alright, but in my opinion fRoots is better written and far more mind expanding.

fRoots does not exist as the house magazine of the British folk scene, and frankly, why should it? That's not its remit. If it had been, it would have probably collapsed years ago...

Meanwhile Faye (and maybe others) might enjoy this: Spiral Earth

And what Jeri said hit the nail on the head.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:09 PM

I very much agree with the previous post. What Froots does is to create a level playing field in which english music is absolutely on a par with everything else on the planet as it should be. That one thing alone makes it a worth while excercise. It sometimes introduces me to music I would not otherwise get exposure to. Perversely, I have in the past checked out things that it has been disparaging about to discover the odd gem. Overall it does a good job, is well presented and well written. There are plenty of other places to go if your tastes are extremely specialised aand a universal view doesn't appeal to you.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:12 PM

His drive and enthusiasm have been second to none and he seems to get nothing like the credit he deserves for this.[quote]

However, he broadened his horizons to find that there are fascinating traditional musics beyond the British Isles and the USA and reflected this in the magazine that he edits. Result? He regularly gets slagged off on Mudcat and elsewhere in the British folk scene. Is this fair?
listen Vic,if I want to listen to roots music,which I sometimes do,I switch on my wireless and listen to rte lyric,tuesday night FM 96 to 99 Reels to Ragas,I find Froots unnecessary.
let us deal with the first quote,
his drive and enthusiam for what,promoting his magazine,why should I find that Laudable,why does that deserve credit?
I can listen to roots music without his magazine,I do not need to be told what I should like ,or what he thinks is the next best thing since sliced bread ,I prefer to make up my own mind,.
many of us on this forum have run folk clubs, I have been involved in running three,neither do any of us expect praise for doing so.
he regularly gets slagged,Quote
well VIC,thats something that happens to all of us, it is part and parcel of being in the public eye ,I recall someone calling me a drug taker a little while ago,thats not fair either,
I am still waiting for an apology,and as you very well know I was right.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:21 PM

Thanks for the Spiral Earth link Spleen: bookmarked.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:24 PM

Gosh, there is some whining going on here. Ian Anderson is so obviously second to none in England as a tireless promoter and magazine publisher on the folk scene. He deserves hand-woven medals. You get all sorts of stuff in his magazine, from stark naked bright young things on the front to slightly more grey-haired old gits like me inside. Now, obviously it would be even better with me naked on the cover, but you can't have everything.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:34 PM

It seems that those he has treated well and given coverage to like him and his magazine alot.

It seems that those and that he and his magazine have treated less well or ignored don't.

No surprises there then!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:36 PM

Banjiman,bullseye.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:41 PM

It is unfortunate that the editor's comment that Faye referred to is no longer available on line. It was a little... odd. Can anyone reproduce it here so we can see the point of Faye's remarks?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:48 PM

Well, I wouldn't say I've been well, or badly covered. I don't believe any live gigs of the Boat Band have been covered in 20 years, even though we've done a couple of thousand. But our records get reviewed, which obviously can be good bad or indifferent (depending on the reviewer or the record!). A bit of a boost would have helpful when we we were getting going, but hell, fRoots did come from Southern Rag and reflected that same hinterland. And we never played in the south, or only rarely.
We had a little feature in the Roots Salad section a couple or three years back, so that was OK.
So I think I am neither prejudiced for or against fRoots in terms of coverage of my own activities. I just think the guy works hard, covers a lot of music and musicians, and has kept going through thick and thin. Fair play to him.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:50 PM

"But our records get reviewed! "

"We had a little feature in the Roots Salad section a couple or three years back"

"So I think I am neither prejudiced for or against fRoots in terms of coverage"


Come, come Mr Stephens..... that's a whole lot more than most acts get!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:53 PM

Possibly. But then, we've played a whole lot more gigs than most acts do!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:55 PM

..... over the centuries is that Greg? LoL.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:55 PM

Dick Miles has returned once again with his "drug taking" accusation that he has trotted out on a number of occasions in the past on Mudcat. I won't get into a public slanging match with him because, as many people know, this serves no purpose.
Suffice to say that this accusation does something to twist the meaning of the original statement which was made by Ian Anderson on the fRoots Forum. If anyone is really that interested send me a private message and I'll give you my interpretation of the sequence of comments.

A public forum is not the place for such vexatious stuff.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:56 PM

I hold no particular view on the magazine fRoots, though this thread makes clear that whenever anyone goes out of their way to make a difference anywhere they had just better expect a load of detractors.

I Don't read the mag (English dance and Song and Whats afoot' give me most of what I need, along with the web) but am really glad that some people put in such hard work to produce it.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:56 PM

I've been around, Mr Banjiman. I've heard the chimes at midnight. Obviously, these days I am asleep by then.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:02 PM

Ian Anderson **loves** Seth and Show of Hands these days.

What more can I say?   (she said, cheekily...running off into the bushes, spluttering)

;0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:04 PM

Vic Smith,is a regular contributor to the froots forum,and appears to be a friend of the editor of Froots.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: folkandroots
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:06 PM

Lizzie

I think you'll find that Ian and Froots whatever your opinion of either have covered both artists you mention for quite a number of years to be fair.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:10 PM

And fRoots gets a thumbs up from the esteemed Mr Beer, above.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:11 PM

I have never been reviewed in fRoots so maybe I should stop buying the magazine. Of course I haven't released a cd or played a gig but is that any reason for fRoots to ignore me? Why haven't I been featured on the front cover? I walked past a folk club once so doesn't that give me the right to have a whole issue devoted to me?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:16 PM

"Lizzie

I think you'll find that Ian and Froots whatever your opinion of either have covered both artists you mention for quite a number of years to be fair."


Now, stop tempting me, I'm being a very good girl here. :0) :0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:35 PM

"I walked past a folk club once so doesn't that give me the right to have a whole issue devoted to me? "

According to some of the above, only if it was in West Africa or somewhere else exotic!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:44 PM

The cd Boxing Clever,which is a concertina compilation,and included John Kirkpatrick,TimLaycock, HarryScurfield, DickMiles,was reviewed in FolkRoots and received a good review.
I have never complained about any reviews.
Vic Smith would do better not to give his interpretation in personal messages,but would do better to let people have the original post.
MattMilton, VicSmith,Greg Stephens are all members of Froots and very regular contributors/posters to the board.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:48 PM

And your point is Captain?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:59 PM

I didn't know you could be a "member of fRoots",Cap'n. It's a magazine, not a club. I do read it. I have never meet Ian Anderson. That about defines my relationship with fRoots


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:38 PM

If it appears in my earlier post that I was belittling EDS, my apologies to anyone involved with it. I realise it has a far smaller budget than fRoots and serves a different purpose (with it also being the society magazine of the EFDSS). It's a good read and, personally, I read every issue cover to cover (except some of the dance stuff which appals both of my left feet). As I have recently been reminded, the regular feature "The Singer, the Song and the Source" is a bit of a gem.

English Dance and Song


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:45 PM

Greg, you are a member and a regular poster of the Froots FORUM board/ come write me down discussion forum.
Impartial?
Fay, asked some questions,three members of the Froots forum ,who are regular posters contributorsto this forum,comeback with how good the magazine is,what a surprise.well they would wouldnt they[to paraphrase Mandy Rice Davies]
well he would wouldnt he[quote Mandy Rice Davies]
born Marilyn Rice-Davies in Pontyates near Llanelli, Wales, and moved to Shirley in Solihull, England. As a teenager, she appeared older than her age and at 15 got a job as a clothes model at Marshall & Snelgrove, a department store in Birmingham. At 16 she came to London and appeared as 'Miss Austin' at the Earls Court Motor Show.[1] She then got a job as a dancer at Murray's Cabaret Club in Soho where she met Christine Keeler who introduced her to her friend, the well-connected osteopath Stephen Ward, and to an ex-lover, the slum landlord Peter Rachman.[2] Rice-Davies became Rachman's mistress and was set up in the same house where he had previously kept Keeler, 1 Bryanston Mews West, Marylebone.

Rice-Davies often visited Keeler at the house she shared with Ward at Wimpole Mews, Marylebone, and, after Keeler had moved elsewhere, lived there herself, between September and December 1962. On December 14 1962 while Keeler was visiting Rice-Davies at Wimpole Mews, one of Keeler's boyfriends, John Edgecombe, attempted to enter and fired several times at the door with a gun.[3] His trial brought attention to the girls' involvement with Ward's social set, and intimacy with many powerful people, including the then Viscount Astor at whose stately home of Cliveden Keeler met the War Minister John Profumo. Profumo's brief relationship with Keeler was at the centre of the affair that caused him to resign from the government in June 1963, though Rice-Davies, herself, never met him.[4]

[edit] "Well he would, wouldn't he?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:50 PM

Cap'n, aren't you a regular poster to the fRoots Forum as well? Doesn't prove you are a biassed supporter of the magazine, does it? My relationship to fRoots, as I have mentioned, is as a regular, and critical, reader.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:54 PM

I'm not going to ask what the resurrection of a gossipy piece of 1963 titillation (gave the phrase, you've never had it so good a whole different meaning) has to do with either Ian Anderson (no not that one!!) or the readership of fRoots.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:54 PM

Cap'n, are you accusing fRoots forum contributors of prostitution? Are you saying that Greg and Matt and Vic are doing a Mandy?

Tee hee.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:58 PM

Actually, I met an American bloke in a pub once who claimed to have slept with Christine Keeler. And this has about as much relevance to this thread as Captain Birseye's last effort!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:01 PM

Greg Stephens wrote:-
Cap'n, aren't you a regular poster to the fRoots Forum as well?


Dick Miles
Joined fRoots Forum - 16 Nov 2007
Number of posts - 68


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:04 PM

Alright!! alright!! you lot I'm in the process of TRYING to restring my fiddle here, and can't stop laughing..


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:06 PM

How's the Profumo affair got here?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:08 PM

Dunno, but if you hum it we'll try to sing along...


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:12 PM

I'm happy to say I was banned from their forum, since it seemed to me entirely legitimate to respond to a person who spasms about f*lk by referring to her as the c*ntess.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:13 PM

Curiouser and curiouser. So, Captain Birdseye, under another name, is a Fully Paid Up Member of fRoots. Mmmmm. Vaaaaary interesting.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Squiggle
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:13 PM

As I remember it Dick, your "Ian accused me of being a drug taker" story is because you made a completely impenetrable post to the fRoots board. It had erratic punctuation and sometimes not even spaces between the words, just like your post above in fact.

Ian, quite understandably, used the phrase "what are you on?". It's a figure of speech...

It's a question which still hasn't been answered. I'm guessing that you have full use of all your fingers seeing as your concertina playing is so accomplished (not a flippant remark by the way...) - do you read back what you've typed before pressing 'submit'? Often it seems as if you don't.

I'm surprised to hear that anyone would think that fRoots actively ignores many young performers in this country. The magazine is famous in certain quarters for being overenthusiastic to the point of putting people on the cover before they've recorded an album or done anything of note.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:19 PM

How's the Profumo affair got here?

Dunno, but if you hum it we'll try to sing along...

the chorus goes:

You've never 'ad it so good me boys,
You've never 'ad it so good
You've never 'ad it so good me boys
So early in the morning o!!!!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:37 PM

In case anyone didn't notice the reformed Edward II or EK2 are on the cover of the current issue of fRoots.

to quote fRoots

"THE SECOND COMING
Mixing English traditional music with reggae was a bonkers notion that turned Edward II into the festival kings of the 1990s. Colin Irwin hears why they're back for just one year".

and a very welcome return too!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:10 PM

yes, and check when I last posted.JULY 2008.
guest Squiggle, print the post and Ian Andersons reply.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:30 PM

"I'm surprised to hear that anyone would think that fRoots actively ignores many young performers in this country. The magazine is famous in certain quarters for being overenthusiastic to the point of putting people on the cover before they've recorded an album or done anything of note."

yeah, well, that's one of many reasons why I found the original first post on this thread totally baffling. It's why it's absurd to start making snide references to advertising revenues. fRoots has regularly championed people who I presume mr anderson and/or fRoots regular contributors rate very highly, regardless of their album sales.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:39 PM

It is unfortunate that the editor's comment that Faye referred to is no longer available on line. It was a little... odd. Can anyone reproduce it here so we can see the point of Faye's remarks?

I havent the patience to type it all out, but it started:

"I come in praise of music in small rooms. I love the wide open spaces and atmosphere of festivals and I've had more than my share of life changing musical experiences in concert halls and in front of vast stadium stages. But when it comes down to it theres nothing like the ambience of somewhere holding no more than a few hundred, or even just dozens. Whether it's a cafe with a stage or a house concert in somebody's home, musicians jamming in a West African compuond or anEnglish pub, a hushed and intimate arts centre theatre or a powerhouse city club, there's a small place for most of the musics I like. Theyre where you feel at one with the performers, as they do with their audiences. I know this because, for my sins, I've not only been audience but performer and organiser too. They are where musicians in many genres learn their trade and often chose to stay playing because they like it like that. They're more human, less pressured, allow evolution and experimentation. The advances weve seen in stage technology in the past few decades have made them better than ever. The UK's smoking ban has also made a really noticeable difference in widening the range of people enjoying going out to live music in small venues again."

This was in the May fRoots which had its big main feature by Colin Irwin on new, youngish artists performing English folk music, only two of who have records out so far I believe. So the original complainers posting saying "There are quite a few young performers trying to break into the scene at the moment- how nice it would be if they could be more publicised; it might even draw a new generation of listeners into the scene" was a really ill-informed comment to make. She did say she only glanced at a copy in her newsagents but It would have helped if she'd bothered to look properly at what she was critcising before inserting foot in mouth!

She keeps good company here though. Any magazine that has Captain Bonkers and Mad Lizzie foaming at the mouth MUST be doing something right!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:43 PM

As I remember it Dick, your "Ian accused me of being a drug taker" story is because you made a completely impenetrable post to the fRoots board. It had erratic punctuation and sometimes not even spaces between the words, just like your post above in fact.

Ian, quite understandably, used the phrase "what are you on?". It's a figure of speech..


That explains a lot. I can well imagine other forums might not be as tolerant of Dick's weird posting style as we are.

Dick, there are several ways of distinguishing what you're quoting from what you've written yourself. What I usually do here is to enclose the quoted text in HTML emphasis tags: <em> at the start of the quote and </em> at the end of it. (Always use the preview option to check that this worked right). That's what I did above.

Another way is to use the Usenet convention of a special character at the start of each line to indicate qhat's quoted, but that has the drawback of requiring a fixed line length, and you have to insert the line breaks yourself. It looks like this:

: this is the
: quoted bit

Haven't you noticed how much easier it is to make sense of most postings here, in comparison with yours (or Jim Carroll's, he creates the same godawful mess as you)?

I've done four previews of this message before finalizing it. It really does help.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:53 PM

"She keeps good company here though. Any magazine that has Captain Bonkers and Mad Lizzie foaming at the mouth MUST be doing something right!"

Actually, the only reason fRoots has me foaming at the mouth these days is due to giggles, giggles that Ian has finally come to realise that I was right all along! ;0)

Teehee!

Oh dearie...dearie...all that fuss and bother with him on the BBC board and there he was ALL along, a secret Seth and Show of Hands fan after all....

The little divil...

Sniggery Smiley.. :0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:10 PM

Folknacious wrote
"I havent the patience to type it all out"

Ah! The joys of having a scanner with text reading software. It means that in seven seconds I managed to produce the following - the editor's piece in full.
Now, before it gets torn to pieces - as it inevitably will on Mudcat - try the following:-
* Read it carefully and try not to misinterpret the intentions of the writer. He is not, for example, saying that all folkies are hopeless bearded twits.
* Consider whether there may be more than a grain of truth in what he is trying to say. It is not anti-folk club; I run a folk club and I don't find it offensive. It is trying to say that there could be other ways, other styles, other venues for presenting the music that we love.
* If your only experience of live music is the folk club or singaround, try going to folk gigs in other venues and find how liberating it can be.

Now, an editorial by Ian Anderson is bound to stir up some bile on Mudcat so let's have it in green!

I come in praise of music in small rooms. I love the wide open spaces and atmosphere of festivals and I've had more than my share of life-changing musical experiences in concert halls and in front of vast stadium stages. But when it comes down to it there's nothing like the ambience of somewhere holding no more than a few hundred, or even just dozens. Whether it's a cafe with a stage or a house concert in somebody's home, musicians jamming in a West African compound or an English pub, a hushed and intimate arts centre theatre or a powerhouse city club, there's a small place for most of the musics I like. They're where you feel at one with the performers, as they do with their audiences. I know this because, for my sins, I've not only been audience but performer and organiser too.
They're where musicians in many genres learn their trade and often choose to stay playing because they like it like that. They're more human, less pressured, allow evolution and experimentation. The advances we've seen in stage technology in the past few decades have made them better than ever. The UK's smoking ban has also made a really noticeable difference in widening the range of people enjoying going out to live music in small venues again.
One kind of small room music runs on the standard UK folk club model that gelled somewhere in the early 1960s. I spent a large part of my formative years in them, when the music was evolving fast and the performers, audiences and organisers were mostly of the same (studentish) age and on the same voyage of discovery. They tended to be in the same rooms used on other nights by equally buzzing, atmospheric blues or jazz clubs which ran in different ways. I can't remember when I first saw critical pieces appearing suggesting that the standard UK folk club model was getting a bit moth-eaten, predictable, its denizens somewhat long in the tooth and cliquishly offputting, but it must have been as far back as the 1970s! They're still being written today and when they appear, people still get hot under the collar because they see the standard UK folk club model as The Only True Way, and the divine right of floor singers the only possible method for a performer to learn the ropes.
The latter is simply wrong. UK folk clubs are good places for learning to be a performer in UK folk clubs, which have their own unique expectations and traditions, sometimes related to and including folk music. It's a community that -with obvious exceptions - sometimes seems to outsiders to be Folkistan run by its own bearded fundamentalists. Other musics, from here and all over the world, clearly have a myriad other equally good ways for new performers to learn their skills or we wouldn't be in such a golden age as we are now. I hope this issue's main feature gives positive evidence that this is the case with English folk music too.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:12 PM

I think you'll find if you look in the Froots indexes that Seth Lakeman and Show Of Hands exploits were being written about in the mag long before you were a twinkle in your therapist's eye. Also, I don't think you'll find that Ian Anderson writes all of Froots anyway (a popular misconception that one, if this thread is anything to go by).


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:16 PM

Vic Smith wrote: seven seconds

A Yossou Ndour song! See, its all a conspiracy to foist more African music on us and put down our own noble British traditions blah blah blah wimble wobble wooble (continued on page 75)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:17 PM

I've known Ian Anderson for a very, very long time. Not well, it's just that I reviewed some Village Things in about 1970 and have seen him perform at odd times over the years. Indeed, after a particularly long break of not clapping eyes on him, I failed to recognise him in the middle of Sainsburys one morning when he scared me half to death at the checkout. And he hasn't forgiven me for shouting 'I'm behind you' on the darkened steps of the Union Chapel. Nevertheless, we get on with each other and agree reasonably well, except when we don't.

None of this, of course, detracts from (or even adds to) the debt which everyone with the mildest interest in trad & roots music owes him. or ought to. I've kept out of this extremely stupid thread so far because someone once mistook me for a fRoots staffer (as if!) and he didn't like that one bit. The fact that he has achieved 30 years of continuous publication without any assistance from me is testimony to his dedication and commitment.

Yes, I have a subscription. No, I don't endorse every word written in the mag. Nor does he as Editor, necessarily. However, it's usually well-written and certainly well-produced and there to provoke discussion and encourage further exploration of the musics covered. Tins, and words written thereon, spring to mind.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:31 PM

"I think you'll find if you look in the Froots indexes that Seth Lakeman and Show Of Hands exploits were being written about in the mag long before you were a twinkle in your therapist's eye."

Oh poo...go check your facts, mate. I could tell you a whole lotta 'stuff' about your words there, that would make your hair stand on end.

However, I really can't be bothered any more, as believe you me, there's absolutely no need. The truth is plain, for all to see, regardless of fRoots & Co.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:33 PM

:Ian, quite understandably, used the phrase "what are you on?". It's a figure of speech:[QUOTE]
that is not just what he said.he said much more.
he made references to hallucinating,amongst other things
In fact,I was not hallucinating,as Greg Stephens,who also saw the review can confirm.
Jack,you are completely unaware of what actually happened,it had nothing to do with posting style,but more to do with Froots the IRISH MUSIC REVIEW and a reviewer with an irish pseudonym,who was also a reviewer for Froots,who did a hatchet review on Ann Conroy Burke.

the Froots editor got very angry with me for daring to send in a post criticising a review ,accused me publicly of hallucinating,and other similiar remarks.
the editor of Froots is well able to explain what happened,but has not even had the decency to apologise.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:43 PM

Another bilious and bloody-minded thread on the forum - whoopee.

I can't add much to what Vic and Diana have said here, except to say that I and my friends knocked around with IA, with many of the London and BBC blues & folk scene performers, and with some of IAs Weston-super-Mare buddies from '68 to'75-ish (when I left London for Sussex). And a nicer set of people you couldn't wish to meet - great fun and good performers. We booked Ian in at Clanfolk, for example, and he gave us an excellent night's entertainment.

Since those days, he's run other clubs, started Village Thing records, created mags including a national one like fRoots (which I rarely read, so can't really comment on) and been a mover and shaker in the music world. Just what does it take to get some respect in the folk community?

Cap'n Dick - slagging off a fellow musician and performer's musical abilities on a public forum like this one is, in my old-fashioned view, surely not on. You keep repeating stories of accusations made, slurs resented and apologies to come forth - but most of us are probably not interested any more.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:45 PM

the Froots editor got very angry with me for daring to send in a post criticising a review ,accused me publicly of hallucinating,and other similiar remarks.

Were you not accused of hallucinating because you had claimed a review appeared in Froots when in fact it had been on some obscure web site and not in Froots, and you kept insisting it had even when presented with the evidence? It has already been pointed out above that you were only asked "what are you on?" after a posting full of impenetrable gobbledegook. Since then you have repeatedly made malicious remarks on here that Ian Anderson had accused you of being on drugs! If apologies are needed, surely they are from you?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:36 PM

Thanks, Folknacious, for your typing efforts and thanks, Vic, for your seven seconds of modern technology. I think it is useful for everybody to know what the fuss is about.

He is not, for example, saying that all folkies are hopeless bearded twits.

I resemble that remark!

Ian's editorial does, indeed, include a lot of sense but it does also include some rather strange remarks. I particularly like - "there's nothing like the ambience of somewhere holding no more than a few hundred". Cosy!

"people still get hot under the collar because they see the standard UK folk club model as The Only True Way, and the divine right of floor singers the only possible method for a performer to learn the ropes." causes a certain amount of concern as well. Who says that?

Coming from the club that gave Jon Boden, The Askew sisters and Lisa Knapp their first folk club bookings, I'd be interested to find out what the other routes to success are. Could you lend me your copy of the magazine, Vic?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:34 AM

From Will:

"Just what does it take to get some respect in the folk community?

Cap'n Dick - slagging off a fellow musician and performer's musical abilities on a public forum like this one is, in my old-fashioned view, surely not on."


I'll tell you what it takes, Will. It takes an editor who does NOT slag incredibly talented musicians off, in his mag, or on his messageboard, or the BBC board, simply because he doesn't like their music.

It's about respect.

It's ALWAYS been about respect.

Sadly, fRoots has taken much delight in NOT respecting those who they deem not suitable to get in under their 'radar'

In my opinion, Ian has lost a great deal of respect over his behaviour and even to this day I think that still stands.

To be honest, if you want to live your life knocking talented artists, making fun of them, getting people to write spiteful reviews etc..well, then don't go crying if folk start complaining.

The thing is, again, as I see it, is that Ian and the fRoots team don't really give a shite about the opinion of you, or me, or anyone else. They simply 'do what they do'..and that's the way it is. Once you get your head around that, you can decide whether to stand with him, or walk away.

I walked.

However, it does my heart good to see he's finally realised just how damn talented Show of Hands and Seth are, along with appreciating, at long last, what a huge influence they're having in bringing thousands into the world of folk music and how much they're helping the younger generation of folk musicians to get out there too.

In the end, even fRoots can't hold out against a sweeping tide of tens of thousands of people who recognise talent that shines out.

So, well done fRoots for at least having the grace to flow with that tide, for once.

Let's hope this marks a whole new beginning.

Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:40 AM

Wrong again.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Kev Boyd
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:49 AM

Funny, isn't it, that the original poster Faye claims not to read the magazine, but then proceeds to write a post based entirely on her misconception of its contents. Not surprisingly, those subsequent posters who actually do read the magazine on a regular basis have a rather different view of its contents.

Mitch2 - who also doesn't read the magazine but took a "quick glance" at the website - thinks s/he's spotted a theme over the last dew issues. This involves lots of African music and the sense that the editor has a "deep-rooted dislike of English folk clubs". Well, I don't think Mitch2 quite glanced at the website closely enough as a more detailed analysis of the last two issues reveals that out of 22 major articles, only ONE featured an African artist in any detail.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:04 AM

Having right in front of me a resource which madlizziecornish has not: a complete archive from 1979 of fR, Folk Roots and Southern Rag, I and not she am aware that there are references to her tiny band of "fave" artists (insofar as their outputs correspond to the mag's remit) going back to decades before they got beneath her radar.

The recent piece on Show Of Hands was a personal assessment by Colin Irwin of how his rating of Beer & Knightley's work has undergone a recent change. It's certainly not one I would agree with myself; my position remains that the one thing I dislike about SoH is certainly not those two nice chaps themselves but their output as a band. Many agree, while some who came across them the week before last and regard them as some sort of pop idols do not.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:14 AM

Er...I don't have 'radar'....that's the whole point...and yours and Ian's 'campaign' against certain artists on the BBC board, which reached into the world of folk magazines itself, where other editors stood UP for certain artists and decried what you two were up to, spoke volumes.

Colin Irwin has also finally seen 'the light'..as have fRoots who decided to print the article.

Ian has seen the light over Seth too..and I'm not going down the road of 'commercialism' again, thinking that even fRoots use Seth to sell their magazine, as I'm sure that no longer applies and Ian's choice to put Seth on the cover so many times is now based on his appreciation of Seth, as an artist.

Colin wrote an ENTIRE chapter about Seth, of course, in his book 'In Search of Albion' (great book by the way)....so it was only a matter of time before he caught up with the rest of us.

Whilst I fully understand how irritating this must all be for you, it would be wonderful if you could just accept it with grace, at long last...

Thank oo..

:0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:25 AM

"It's certainly not one I would agree with myself; my position remains that the one thing I dislike about SoH is certainly not those two nice chaps themselves but their output as a band."

And you are perfectly entitled to that opinion. We all like different things in life.

What is not on is for some people to go out of their way to malign any artist/s for years and years and years, to the point where they even try to damage the careers of those artists when it comes to Awards etc.

The whole damn fiasco that surrounded certain artists was unbelievable, totally unbelievable and very wrong. And to be honest, I'd have *such* respect for those who took part in it, if they had the guts to stand up and say it was wrong, and that they were sorry.

"Many agree, while some who came across them the week before last and regard them as some sort of pop idols do not."

There are a *few* people in the traditional part of the folk world who may agree. Those are the ones who prefer to drink in the bar named 'Us'.

Those who love the music of Show of Hands drink in a very inclusive bar, labelled 'We', where ALL are welcome, where ALL songs are sung, where all accents are acceptable and where 'the music' reaches out, far beyond the radar, to a world of thousands who are finding their way to folk, acoustic and traditional music, because of Show of Hands and all the other artists who now surround them.


The Battle of Show of Hands has finally been won, Diane, by Steve and Phil, themselves.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:40 AM

Peddling myths again, I see.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:50 AM

I've no interest in any "battle of Show of Hands", and I'm not particularly bothered in knowing more.

My point - perhaps not made clearly enough - was that the thread topic was about the nature of fRoots magazine. There's nothing wrong with being critical about a publication's idealogoy, look, feel, contents, etc. To make pejorative remarks about the editor's musical ability because of a personal grudge that some of us know nothing whatsoever about, and care even less about, and which is repeated ad nauseam every tme that editor's name appears in Mudcat, is not an argument.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:35 AM

The battle of convincing me say Roots is a folk song might never be won, at least not by arguing in a forum.

The battle of the us and them bars probably does not need winning. OK, we may at times tuck ourselves away in different corners but I'd find the idea that say Mr Beer, Diane and I could not find a way of having a pint and perhaps even a song or tune together difficult to imagine. There must be something there we all enjoy. Can we all run to a 3 Round 3?

I think, Lizzie, you get in the way of finding where the common ground exists, rather than encouraging it.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:42 AM

Lizzie, um... "we" and "us" are both expressions of the second person plural. As is "our".

As in "we would like you to join with us in listening to our favourite music." F'rinstance.

Good sense from the redoubtable Monsieur Le Mouche as ever.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:47 AM

Oh do me a favour, Jon!

Stop being so hypocritical. Go back and read some of your posts about me on the BBC board, many of them...and then think on this....that despite so many negative comments about me, I have never responded to you in kind.

I have ALWAYS had an open mind to music, you know that. I have also had an open mind to how and what people write and to freedom of expression, never once telling anyone the things that you have told me over the years..

Incredibly talented musicians should NOT have to endure what some had to, from Diane and Ian. End of story. And I have *no* respect for those who cannot see that.

Will, you should find out more. Just because someone is an old friend of yours does not excuse appalling behaviour.

And now, I'm outta this thread. I've said what needs to be said, from my point of view.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:49 AM

Oh, *u*k the grammar, SC.

'We' as in you and me, all of us.....non-excluding, inclusive, without barriers, walls or divisions!

THAT is Show of Hands way...

Got it?

Good...

And by the way, I do Elizabethan English, the 1st, not the 2nd, plural or singular, upside down, or back to front..


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:53 AM

I realised the other day that the only magazines I buy these days are non-music (Private Eye & Fortean Times) though I do check Mojo, Wire, fRoots, Living Tradition, The Storyteller, Home Organist, The Improvising Crwth Player, Gramophone, etc. during our protracted browsing sessions in Borders. I suppose I get most of my music needs on-line & I was always wary of Folk Roots inclinations towards music as a commodity anyway, much less an exotic commodity, which tended to trivialise things even back in 1990. My letter in the Jan/Feb 1991 number, for example, was an irked response at them featuring Mauritanian Griots on the cover and only giving them a single page article inside. Maybe things are better now? Let's hope so. Still, I did get to mention Sun Ra and Jim Eldon in the same sentence, although they wrongly detected the influence of James Joyce (as oppose to a far more evident Mark E. Smith) in my writing style. I note that a letter to WIRE at the same time were a whole lot more placid, and deserving of a bottle of Jim Beam!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Squiggle
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:57 AM

Lizzie, Show of hands were first featured in fRoots in issue 151, which by my calculation was 14 years ago.

Seth first appeared with the Lakeman brothers in issue 134, then again with Equation issue 141. That was 16 years ago.

Just throwing some facts in... But I'm sure that won't deter you.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Smedley
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:02 AM

Would it be considered unduly inflammatory to suggest that the term 'incredibly talented musicians' is a smidgeon on the subjective side, and therefore open to disagreement and debate ?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:03 AM

Ian Anderson used to post to uk.music.folk, and ticked quite a few people off when explaining (or not) why fRoots didn't cover the UK folk club and session scene. I wasn't particularly bothered about that, since there are always other ways to find out about what's going on here and I agreed with Ian that detailed coverage would be a waste of trees.

I was more bothered about the magazine not covering similar scenes elsewhere. I've travelled a lot round Europe over the last 25 years, and my knowledge of the languages and musical cultures of the places I've been to has been quite variable. I can read French quite well but don't have any idea how to locate something like a traditional music session in France. I hardly know any Hungarian but can do much better there. I know even less Croatian or Slovak but got lucky a few times in Croatia, Bosnia and Slovakia; I'll be in Montenegro this autumn but have no reason to suppose I'll get lucky again.

So the main thing I want in a magazine that purports to cover the traditional music of the world is where to find the stuff in the wild. fRoots doesn't attempt to provide that information, or didn't last time I looked at it. I once asked Ian if he'd like an article about the music in a place I was thinking of going to that isn't much written about; he replied that I'd have to suggest recordings to go along with it. Since the locals have been more preoccupied in the last few years with getting their electricity working again, fixing broken windows and covering shellholes with tarpaulin than with running recording studios, that wasn't an option. It seemed that fRoots's policy was that genres that weren't represented on CD would never be covered.

I wasn't expecting a detailed guide to the best bars for singalongs in Reunion or a directory of fluteplaying shepherds in Kurdistan, but there are ways to present that sort of information without coming across as a complete anorak.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:14 AM

Lizzie, if you mean for example I think you troll. I'm, happy to stick with that opinion.

I don't see what it has to do with my and other's abilty to find common musical ground in a pub though.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:17 AM

At the risk of being repetitive (Lizzie, if by chance you're reading the thread), I haven't seen or spoken to or corresponded with Ian for over 40 years. I'm just conscious of what he's achieved - whether those achievements are good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.

Quite simply, to use personal criticism of his own music as a way of criticising his publication (which was what Dick did in his post, from personal motives) is not an approach of any value. It's a small point, granted, but an important one.

Is that clear enough? The thread is about the content and coverage and relevance of fRoots magazine.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:22 AM

The next issue of fRoots - June 2009 No. 311 - will see the magazine celebrating 30 years of continuous publication during which time it has been edited by the same person leading a small dedicated team. It has never failed to meet its deadlines and been a source of inspiration and information to thousands of people all over the world. In the current recession where many independent British magazines have already gone to the wall, it will be a minor miracle if it survives at all with the way that things are going in terms of the cuts in advertisers' budgets . If fRoots does fail - and I don't know but I would imagine that it is hanging on by its fingernails at the the moment, then Britain will have lost one of its finest independent magazines of any nature along with one of the folk scene's best sources of support and sponsorship.

In 2006, when I was setting up and tour managing the long Britain-wide Shirley Collins "America Over The Water" tour, I tentatively approached Ian Anderson for a reduction in the cost of advertising space for the tour. His response was to give us large prominent adverts in several editions for free. We offered him free tickets for the tour's culminating show at London's South Bank. He replied saying he would have loved to have come but that he was so near the deadline that he couldn't spare the evening off. I know that my experience is not unique and that fRoots has sponsored many tours, festivals, events with free advertisments.

If any thread were to appear at this time, it should be one that celebrates the manifold achievements of this decades-long beacon of excellence rather than narrow-minded sniping over content that supports particular favourites or repeated mis-information about small-minded disputes.

Even, if people don't like the direction that the magazine has moved in, there should be a recognition that half a lifetime has gone into a magazine that has set the standards for what can be acheived in this field.

It would be very pleasant, though unlikely, that this thread could be turned into just such a celebration.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Smedley
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:23 AM

The kind of article you're proposing would be of interest to some, Jack, but those of us unable to strap on a back-pack and get hiking wouldn't really be able to relate to it very well (it would be like looking at someone else's "what I did on my holidays" essay). By concentrating on performers who have recorded music that's (relatively) widely available, the magazine offers its readers a chance to evaluate the writing in the context of music they can actually hear.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,cav
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:32 AM

If you don't like a magazine don't buy it - I, for example, don't by hundreds of them.

If you don't buy a magazine but read it for free and don't like it - don't read it again.

If you buy a magazine and have a point to make about its content - write to the editor.

But don't shit-stir on an internet forum.

It is not difficult.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:53 AM

Just found this thread!
What larks!
All the usual suspects banging on. I'm with Mr Smith.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:59 AM

Ralphie, you imp! Where have you been...? You've not been with that there Surreysinger, by any chance, have you?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: evansakes
Date: 13 May 09 - 06:03 AM

For goodness sake you lot....can't you give it a rest?!

Innuendo, bitterness, resentment, axe-grinding, chips on shoulders, age-old rivalries re-ignited, point scoring, nit-picking, griping, moaning etc

Is that REALLY what it's all about? :-(

Thoroughly depressing from beginning to end.

There's a lot of good music out there....you don't have to like it all.

Lots of great venues too....you don't have to go to them all.

Plenty of music magazines too....you don't have to read them all.

Simples!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 13 May 09 - 06:10 AM

You've got to laugh! ( the alternative doesn't bear serious consideration).

   TYo quote the Beatles, let it be, let ian run his magazine in his way, let Show of hands enjoy their success, and for the sado-masochistic sub group who seem to get off on venom and vitriol, keep it to yerselves.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 May 09 - 06:13 AM

I've contributed a number of articles to fROOTS over the years, including pieces on Pete Coe, Chris Coe, Roy Harris, Rod Stradling, John Kirkpatrick and The Devil's Interval (all of which Ian printed with enthusiasm and without editorial intervention), as well as an examination of the British folk club scene which the editor himself commissioned. As far as the British tradition goes, fROOTS has covered the Coppers more than once, Gordon Hall, Fred Jordan, Willie Scott and Sheila Stewart, to name but a few.

And it is a very well-produced and professional product despite (I suspect) running on the proverbial shoestring.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 May 09 - 06:23 AM

Tug the Cox wrote
let Show of hands enjoy their success.....


They are not just sitting back and enjoying their success, they have come up with a superb list of guidelines for young performers that would emulate them.

How did I find out about these guidelines?
Well, I read them on a link provided in the fRoots Forum under a thread entitled SOH's business plan for young folk bands You can read them at http://froots.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4431.

Who was thoughtful enough to post this threas provide this invaluable information?
It was someone called Ian Anderson.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 13 May 09 - 07:26 AM

"he made references to hallucinating,amongst other things

In fact,I was not hallucinating"


this really did make me laugh out loud.

Has anyone hear ever listened to Count Arthur Strong on Radio 4?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:04 AM

"It would be very pleasant, though unlikely, that this thread could be turned into just such a celebration."

Yes, it would, wouldn't it...but sadly, Ian's managed to make so many people fume that he's created exactly this kind of thread. He loves doing that, so I'm really not worried about him reading this, it'll send him into orgasmic chuckles, I've no doubt...but that's what fRoots is about, not giving a damn.

Ho hum.

And er...sorry guys, but much as you can throw as many quotes as you want at me about how incredibly supportive of Show of Hands, Ian has been, many of us are fully aware that the exact opposite was true, until recently.

Trust me, you had to have been a poster on the old BBC F&A board to understand this. It was where Diane, Ian and I got into some flaming rows over his attitude to musicians that he deemed not of his world, and Seth's entry to the Mercury Award was put into jeopordy by er....two people who know exactly who they were, one of whom is on this very thread...

I have no doubt, as I've said many a time, that had one of the more 'traditional' singers been entered into the Mercury Award, under the exact same circumstances, then none of that would ever have happened, just a mountain of support from those two people concerned.

There are some magazine editors who love 'control'...they also love 'control' on their messageboard too, which is why certain messageboards have the same small incestuous group of people all bowing and kowtowing to the Holy Editor.

Strangely, I choose not to write on such boards, even though it's real easy to get back on again, despite said Holy Editor almost blowing up half of his posters in an effort to ensure I couldn't get back...which gave me many orgasmic chuckles too! :0)

Jon, you were fed a total lie about 'trolls' by fiona, now no longer with us, who started this whole 'troll' business up after I became the focus of her grief, following the death of her father. Ask the Longdogs, they were there when it started to happen.

She targeted you, and you fell for it.

Up until that time, you and I used to write to one another as friends from time to time, outside the BBC board, as I recall. You chose to stop that and join in with her campaign. That was your freedom of choice, same as it was for all the others who chose to follow. It was only in the latter part of fiona's time on that board, the very latter, that she realised, how she'd made me feel, after Diane and I both, at the same time, asked her to stop stirring things up. Then when Ralph Jordan & Co, started their ganging up, she asked him, on the board, to stop. He chose not to of course. Those posts are still there should you want to look at them, in the 'Dave Gilmour - Living on an Island' thread waaaaaaaaay back.

For now though, I'll leave you all to keep pressing the complaints button on the BBC board, every time you hunt me down and think you've found me.. but please bear in mind that it's now in the hands of the Mail on Sunday who hopefully will be looking into exactly what happened on that board, and why it was allowed to continue for so bloody long.

And, just ask yourselves why you did it in the first place...because I spoke about more music, more musicians, more radio programmes etc..etc..etc..than most of you put together.

Oh...and if John Leonard is out there, I'm still waiting for him to return my phone call. I spoke to Vic, very nice chap, and he told me that John would hopefully get back to me. I'm waiting, same as I've been waiting for YEARS for the BBC Investigations Deptartment to come and investigate.

I'll put the kettle on.

And nope, Joe, I'm not taking this any further, and if you want to zap this message I fully understand why.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:10 AM

This is all getting quite weird.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:24 AM

"This is all getting quite weird"

Ain't that the truth.

And for the record, CONGRATULATIONS to Ian Anderson and all the staff at fRoots for producing an excellent and informative and well written magazine for the last 30 years. Not only that, but you've remained true to your mission. In this era of corporate buyouts and pressure to dumb down and compromise, that really is some acheivement.

Cheers! 'Ere's to the next 30!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:45 AM

This is all getting quite weird.

It's alright, it's just that the transdimensional polarising membrane between Mudcat and Mud-e-ceilidh has broken down again.

One of the maintenance crews will be round in a minute or two.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:50 AM

I'll second your motion of congratulations to fRoots; I've been a subscriber off and on for some years although I've lapsed from time to time. However this thread has served to remind me just how much the magazine has been a force for the good over the years, and helped me to discover music I didn't know about as well as providing additional insight into singers and musicians I already knew of.

If there was a magazine that pandered only to my blinkered prejudices it would be too boring even for me to read! I've renewed my subscription today, but I hope I'll be spared Greg's full frontal on any future covers.

This thread is indeed most weird - some of the posts remind me of the poor bus driver who went off the rails - I have no idea what they are driving at.

Matthew Edwards


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:52 AM

Sorry Lizzie but I did like Fiona. Think her mistake was trying to be peace maker there. I don't normally make things like this public but we had a lovely reply from her husband when we learned of her death (she was an Annexe contributer who loved gardening). I think your suggestion this time round is one step too far.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:52 AM

"It's alright, it's just that the transdimensional polarising membrane between Mudcat and Mud-e-ceilidh has broken down again."

That's OK then, I thought it might be me.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Surreysinger
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:55 AM

Love that one sfmans!!
I'll second and third congrats to Ian on managing to keep going for 30 years ... obviously some people DO like what he's doing, and long may he keep doing so. I'm sure that it's extremely hard work, and it must be galling to see some of the uninformed remarks made by some, but not all, contributors to this thread. I'm with Vic and Brian and Nigel on all their comments!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: evansakes
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:07 AM

"I'll put the kettle on"

Can you maybe put a lid on it this time, Lizzie? :-)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Surreysinger
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:12 AM

Seconded!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:25 AM

Lizzie.
Which of the two words "Barking" and "Mad" don't you understand?
When you've spent 40 years running a magazine. Then you can criticise.
Until then button it.
Life a get (re-arrange)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:32 AM

Un-called for, comments, Ralph. If that was the case, there wouldn't be any discussion boards.

As someone who incurred Ian's wrath in "another place" over his treatment of Reg Meuross, I'm going to say nothing ecept that, judging by his messages on facebook, he is getting a wee bit peeved.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:35 AM

Lizzie.
I've just noticed that you've mentioned me in a previous post.
What on earth are you refering to?
I haven't a clue. So, please stop it.
It's not big and it's not clever.
And what's more, I don't care for you or your opinions.
Get back to me when you\ve learned how to play a musical instrument, or can actually sing a song in tune.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:40 AM

There's nothing much more off-topic than Reg Meuross, though he was the performer who, as it goes, complained publicly (in a BBC blog) that some waxing of his wasn't reviewed in fR because of his gender(!). This was not only highly offensive and sexist but entirely missed the point that the release did not fall, by any standards of clarity of definition, into the mag's remit. Some of his work does, some doesn't. Simple as that.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:53 AM

Axes axes axes. Makes me prostrate with dismal . . .


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:02 AM

Ralphie, can you play a Three Round Three too?

X: 1
T:Three Around Three
C:Trad
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:G
|:d2BA G2G2|A2BA G2D2|EDEF G2AB|c2B2B2A2|
d2BA G2G2|A2BA G2D2|EDEF G2Ac|B2G2G4:|
|:d2ef gfed|e2e2efge|d2B2B2AG|FGAB A4|
d2ef gfed|e2e2e2d2|ef g2fg a2|g4g4:|

Hey diddle up dup.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Chris Foster
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:15 AM

Well I don't know why I just wasted 1/2 an hour of my precious time ploughing through this lot. Maybe it was because of the bizarre surrealism of a good deal of it. What are some of these people on?

No, the reason was because I took the scenic route (sadly much of it not a very nice view) to the end so I could just add my vote of thanks to Ian and his various collaborators over the years, who have kept the magazine coming, on time, well written, well designed and always with something that I'd not come across or thought about before. Of course I don't find every article interesting, but I'm always pleasantly surprised by how a big a percentage of the content I do find interesting and all for the price of a couple of pints of beer. What on earth is there to moan about?

I think he and the magazine have done and continue to do a great job. Long may they continue.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,old hippy git
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:28 AM

My dear old missus buys 'TV Quick' and 'Closer' most weeks;
not much folk music mentioned in either of 'em ???
bugger all in fact!!!

hmmm.. now maybe for any folks with too much spare time
and an axe or two to grind,
theres some potential mainstream targets
to bombard with constant futile requests and complaints
for regular extra specialist Trad Folk Culture coverage..??????


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:52 AM

I `ad that Faye Roche in my cab the other day and she `ad a copy of that fRoots in `er `and.
I said, " Where to Faye?"
She said, "Will you take me down to the orchard, Jim, please?"
I said, " Sure. You gonna read that article about that Bongo Band in Djibouti while your picking the apples?"
She said, with a puzzled frown on `er kisser, "Whadya mean?"
I said, "Your little book, it`s all about folk music, ennit?"
She said, "That `alf wit newsagent. I asked `im for something on FRUITS!!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:05 AM

I started taking Southern Rag when it was still a local mag, even though I lived outside the area it covered. When it turned into Folk Roots I continued to take it. However over time it came to focus more on Roots music than Folk, as eventually symbolised by its change of name to fRoots. I stopped taking it because it no longer focussed on my interests.

I've never quite understood why I should be expected to also enjoy roots music from other countries just because I enjoy British roots music. However the decision to focus on Roots rather than Folk was clearly a good one as the magazine is still going.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:15 AM

everyone's entitled to their opinion "Ralphie" even you.

It's turned into one of those days which I was hoping to avoid.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:18 AM

After their recent review of my last album, I won't hear a word against fRoots - what wonderful taste and discrimination they have!
A feature would be nice, mind ...

Anne


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:36 AM

"My point - perhaps not made clearly enough - was that the thread topic was about the nature of fRoots magazine."

Quite right Will. Personally if I hear one more word about "The Dark Lord" and his sidekick on inappropriaate threads, I think I just might do something that'll get me locked away in Broadmoor for the rest of my life.

Congrats on 30 Years, fRoots, keep up the good work!!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:00 PM

Lizzie posted "but sadly, Ian's managed to make so many people fume that he's created exactly this kind of thread."
That rather confused me as I thought it was Faye who started the thread !
But that seems to be the procedure for a LOT of people round here ! NEVER let the facts get in the way of your argument !
And Congratulations to Ian on Thirty Years of the mag , which i DONT subscribe to , but DO HAT TI Ian every now and then , usually in the Beer tent (NO Lizzie ,NOT Phil) at Towersey .
Maybe one day we will have a 'Backwater Juke Band' revival .


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Bemused Guest
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:51 PM

I've happened on this thread by mistake. I don't know anything about folk music or any of the people posting here. But I did have a nice laugh at greg stephens' posting about the ideal cover - I hope fRoots will call you up for a photo session greg, but please wear appropriately placed cds ;)
Captain Birdseye and Lizzie come over as a pair of bitter carping whiners. Wouldn't want to meet either of them on - well, I was going to say a dark night, but let's face it, who would want them to ruin a sunny day either? Yuk


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: NormanD
Date: 13 May 09 - 01:25 PM

Innuendo, bitterness, resentment, axe-grinding, chips on shoulders, age-old rivalries re-ignited, point scoring, nit-picking, griping, moaning etc was said above.

Whenever fRoots gets mentioned, the woodwork creaks and out come the freaks.

What an odd and bitter bunch we have here.

Please add my name, and a big CONGRATULATIONS to fRoots for thirty successful and entertaining years. I have been a subscriber for many of these years and hope to continue reading it for a lot longer. I am glad it hasn't become part of a wider corporate magazine empire and manages to keep its independent spirit and quirkiness. Well done to Ian A and his team - long may you continue, while all the detractors stir their buckets of bile.

Norman

PS I am not in the business, as a performer, promoter, writer or anything other than a fan of local music from out there.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 May 09 - 01:37 PM

So, Faye Roche, since you started this with a cursory read of something that you didn't even glance at the main feature of, or the news pages for example, I'd say the least you could do is pay for that slightly-thumbed copy of their May issue and read it properly. Then come back and either justify your remarks about fRoots never covering new folk performers, or maybe apologising? That would be something novel on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 13 May 09 - 01:40 PM

Well there we are, freaks first in, fair minded with a late and decisive cavalry charge. Message! Let the readers of the mag decide. If you don't happen to like it, don't buy it. If you have a genuine, specific comment about an item of content that you want to air on this forum, O.K., but that wasn't what we've had.

Final result.. Congratulations to Ian and co. If you're still there, you're still needed.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 May 09 - 01:59 PM

All these positive comments about fRoots from people I've never seen on Mudcat before (guess I might have just missed their previous contributions)....... what's going on here then?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:16 PM

t's a very simple matter to check on how long a "Johhny-Come-Lately" fRoots-positive contributor has been a Nudcat member. Leadfingers: 7 years, me 6, NormanD: 4 and so on.

But Banjiman? A mere 2 . . .


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:19 PM

Oh, must be my mistake then.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:25 PM

I like being a new "Nudcat" member.

Shouldn't that be "Nudecat"?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:25 PM

Obviously posters like Brian Peters, Chris Foster and Phil Beer are fakes too. Real people don't have names like that.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:26 PM

"That rather confused me as I thought it was Faye who started the thread !"

Now now, :0) You know what I meant...any thread about fRoots always ends up the same..

"All these positive comments about fRoots from people I've never seen on Mudcat before (guess I might have just missed their previous contributions)....... what's going on here then?"

Good to see the fRoots team on here though...chuckle! ;0)

Moi, bitter? Nope, I'm not bitter about Ian, a little p*ssed off with him over the years, maybe. But he's become a Sethette now so he's got Brownie Points. (naughty giggle)

However, I am very p*ssed off with people who want to take freedom of speech away from others, and trust me, until you've had it happen to you, you can't even begin to know how it feels. I choose not to write on Ian's board, so he hasn't taken that away from me..They all use words of more than two syllabubbles on there so most of the time I've not a clue what they ornnn about anyway.

Songlines is an excellent magazine! ;0)

Teehee, I can see the smoke coming out of his ears now over at fRoots Towers! Any moment now he'll come on here and tell us how he never comes on here and can't be ARSSED to really, but he needed to set the record straight, etc etc etc..(even naughtier giggles)

He can't help it, it's 'cos he was born in Weston Super Mare....it's summat to do with the sea going out and out and out and out and never wanting to come back in over the mud...I know, I used to live just up the road...(And yes, to The Pedantic Ones, I know that it's not real 'sea' at Weston, before you all burst a blood vessel in telling me)

;0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:52 PM

Nurse, the screens . . . the screens . . .


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:09 PM

"t's a very simple matter to check on how long a "Johhny-Come-Lately" fRoots-positive contributor has been a Nudcat member. Leadfingers: 7 years, me 6, NormanD: 4 and so on.

But Banjiman? A mere 2 . . . "

Yes, but length isn't everything (or so I'm told).


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:12 PM

Nurse resigned, a very long time ago... ;0)

From Ralph:

"...What on earth are you refering to?
I haven't a clue. So, please stop it.
It's not big and it's not clever.
And what's more, I don't care for you or your opinions..."

Here you go

The Dave Gilmour thread (with a bit of fRoots thrown in around message 1,053) ;0)

Reg Meuross fOlk rOcks! You should have seen him rockin' with Martin Carthy at Sidmouth last year, when they were playing one of Reg's new 'traditional' songs...'The Poacher'. Heck but that man can write great songs!

As ever though, fRoots are soooooooo behind, but...now that they've seen the light with Seth and Show of Hands, I know it'll only be a matter of time before they recognise that Reg Meuross is also one of our best singer songwriters on the folk scene too, just as Mike Harding says.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: NormanD
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:18 PM

Teehee

Teehee??!!?? What am I reading? The Dandy??


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:20 PM

Apart from now knowing what nasty pieces of work a couple of posters are; what the hell does David Gilmour have to do with this thread?

Oh and I've alway preferred the quality of time spent on something rather than the quantity, but these days it seems that it's the bean counter's numbers that are important. The corporate mentality I suppose.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:28 PM

Calm down, I only asked a question.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:38 PM

"Teehee??!!?? What am I reading? The Dandy?? "

I do apologise....said in very serious voice. I'd forgotten how terribly serious the English folk world is. I dared to start enjoying myself. I'll write a thousand lines immediately, to ensure this doesn't happen again.

I must not laugh
I must not..
I must..

Dave Gilmour?

I think Ian did a double page whatsit on him once.. (splutter)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: NormanD
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:53 PM

Nah, I think that Korky The Kat is a lot funnier than quite a few of the spiteful posts above.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:19 PM

Nor is it much like The Bash Street Kids

Eric wouldn't be impressed


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:22 PM

Faye's original post contained a substantive point which hasn't really been a addressed at all.

She saw a need for some sort of house organ for the British folk club scene. fRoots has never seen that as part of its remit, and I'd agree that if they have other things they'd rather do, that's their privilege.

I'm not sure that doing it on paper these days is the way to go, but a lot of the effort would be the same whether it were a print publication or a website. Either way it would need some sort of well-defined federation committed to sharing information.

Against: in several years of trying, nobody's managed to get together a Britain-wide listings resource for the folk club and session scene that actually works, let alone something with the added editorial content Faye was after.

Pro: it has worked in some related genres. "British Bluegrass News" does a good job for that area, albeit it's not published frequently, and "Box and Fiddle" covers the mostly-Scottish accordion-&-fiddle-club scene with a glossy monthly.

"Living Tradition" might be better able to take that on but I'm not too sure what their editorial priorities are at the moment, beyond simply surviving.

Maybe Faye could come back and rephrase the question, leaving fRoots out of it. How does she think what she's after could be realized? Who would do it, and what resources (for information, labour and money) could they call on?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:41 PM

apart of special editions the American roots publication No Depression is now wholly on the internet


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:42 PM

;I'm not sure that doing it on paper these days is the way to go, but a lot of the effort would be the same whether it were a print publication or a website. Either way it would need some sort of well-defined federation committed to sharing information.;
many newspapers are closing in the states,because people are reading news online.,its possible that national folk magazines in paper form may be on the way out soon.
Musical Traditions, has the right idea,folk magazines online,saves paper and cutting down trees too.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:43 PM

Doesn't anyone read 'English Dance and Song'any more? It covers just about everything people ae demanding above.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 09 - 06:19 PM

Gael Linn CEF DVD 189; 2006


Captain Birdseye (Dick Miles) posted this review in full in this post.
Geoff Wallis requested that I remove your copy-paste of his article. You posted the same article in this thread and it was removed at the request of the publisher. In that thread, it was made clear to you that the author, Geoff Wallis, did not wish you to post his article. The article had been posted in the Irish Music Review under the pseudonym of James O'Donnell (attribution there has since been changed), but it was made clear in the previous thread that the author was Geoff Wallis.
-Joe Offer- Forum Moderator-


This review by James O'Donnell was written for fRoots magazine – www.frootsmag.org.
   Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:45 PM

the Froots editor got very angry with me for daring to send in a post criticising a review ,accused me publicly of hallucinating,and other similiar remarks.

Were you not accused of hallucinating because you had claimed a review appeared in Froots when in fact it had been on some obscure web site and not in Froots, and you kept insisting it had even when presented with the evidence? It has already been pointed out above that you were only asked "what are you on?" after a posting full of impenetrable gobbledegook. Since then you have repeatedly made malicious remarks on here that Ian Anderson had accused you of being on drugs! If apologies are needed, surely they are from you?
FOLKNACIOUS,in answer to your question
this is the review,it clearly states,this review was written by James O Donnell for froots.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 06:24 PM

I read it! And fRoots. And The Wire. And Mojo.

Am I sad or what?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 06:48 PM

Above was in response to Tug...


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:00 PM

Dick: you got your facts wrong by not checking on the fRoots site itself for a review originally posted there. If you are going to post such an abrasive response, you have to check the primary source to make damn sure you are attacking the right person for something they actually wrote. You couldn't be bothered.

You owed Ian an apology right there, and more so with every subsequent post that dug yourself ever deeper in a hole shovelling self-righteousness over everybody in sight. If Ian said your communication style was that of a drug-addled hippie with hash-induced Alzheimer's, you asked for it. (I forget what he actually did say - ecept that he was more polite than that - and have no interest in seeing you attempt to quote it back at us).

By now you have created such a preposterous amount of bad feeling over something that was your mistake in the first place that you don't just owe Ian an apology, you owe one to ALL of us for wasting our time.

Now shut up about it. And learn to edit your posts in such a way that quotations are identifiable. Sensible punctuation would help, too.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Bemused guest
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:05 PM

Wow, you lot are a bunch of Jack Russells, will keep my ankles well-covered if I go to any of those small run-down folk clubs to see unheard of up-and-coming but not necessarily cute English folk musicians


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:54 PM

I never accused Ian of writing the review,I criticised his magazine for publishing it.
I owe no one an apology,every person has a right to write about a review to the editor of any magazine /newspaper.
I received an apology from James O Driscoll,who at least has a semblance of manners.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:23 AM

this review quite clearly states[and still did so last night]that it first appeared in Froots.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:23 AM

"a drug-addled hippie with hash-induced Alzheimer's"

Is this a competition to get the most totally offensive allusions into one phrase? You've won!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 04:41 AM

This review by James O'Donnell was written for fRoots magazine – www.frootsmag.org.

That's not Froots' web site URL, and although I'm a regular reader I don't recognise that reviewer name among those that appear in the magazine. Hallucinating or hoodwinked, who cares? You are pursuing a deranged, obsessive vendetta against somebody who didn't write this review, regardless of where it appeared.

Interestingly, I just checked the Froots on-line reviews index and I see 5 albums by Dick Miles were reviewed in early issues, way back before I have copies. Would somebody out there like to check to see what they said and who wrote them? Then maybe we can really get to the bottom of what festering sore this loopy campaign is all about.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:02 AM

"a drug-addled hippie with hash-induced Alzheimer's"

Dick, I know some people who would take that as a compliment!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Squiggle
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:02 AM

Yes Dick - but what you're failing to grasp is that the website might say it was written for fRoots, but the editor of the magazine (a more reliable source) says they never printed it and he'd never seen it till you pointed the website out to him.

You were (and still are) attacking the magazine for publishing something that they never published.

As people have said above - axes to grind.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Judy Dyble
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:15 AM

Well, I have got completely tangled up reading this lot, but I would still like to add my congratulations to Mr Anderson for keeping fRoots going for 30 years..magazines don't keep going for that long without getting something right and on the few occasions I have managed to get my hands on one, I have been very impressed by the quality and far-ranging content. Yes I was the subject of an article in one issue and I was surprised and delighted to be in it..

So well done Ian..


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:20 AM

Folknacious,they were all good reviews.
guest Squiggle,
If he had replied politely,and allowed the thread,to be discussed[instead of closing it], and explained this ,instead of overreacting and being rude,this would have been clearer.
instead people[as I was] were and still are being misled into thinking this was a review that appeared in froots[it clearly states this article appeared in froots]
why hasnt Ian contacted the reviewer and told him to remove froots name from the article.[he has had 11 months to do so]
I first saw this article on www.session.org
Folknacious is quite wrong,my reason for objecting to the review,was because it was such a hatchet job, at the time I had no idea who james O driscoll was,I just thought it was a disgraceful review.
members of the public should have every right to contact an editor and complain,without being treated with contempt and arrogance.
I was led to believe it appeared in froots[as anyone else would have been].because it stated it appeared in froots


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:37 AM

Who is this James O'Driscoll? The first quote you made above said it was by James O'Donnell.

Are you just making this stuff up? Or hallucinating? Has anybody seen any marbles?

Really, isn't it time to stop this absurd nonsense?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Smedley
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:56 AM

"Really, isn't it time to stop this absurd nonsense? "

No!!! I haven't laughed so much in ages.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:10 AM

correction, James O Donnell


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:11 AM

why hasnt Ian contacted the reviewer and told him to remove froots name from the article.[he has had 11 months to do so]

How do you know he hasn't? It's very difficult to get a website in a foreign country to take stuff down. (I don't know where www.irishmusicreview.com is hosted and I very much doubt you do). I've repeatedly tried to get plagiarisms of my work taken off the net and have never succeeded with any of them.

And why the byline on the article should matter so much to you I can't imagine. You seemed to think it was fine if Geoff Wallis had written it, unacceptable if it was by James O'Donnell. (I've never heard of either of them). If the authorship is so important there's something you're not telling us.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Squiggle
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:14 AM

So, to sum up

a) you've repeatedly accused Ian of calling you a drug taker (he didn't)
b) you've repeatedly lashed out at him for printing a review you didn't agree with (he didn't)

and you expect an apology for this?

Anyway, back in the real world - the initial poster has been conspicuously quiet. Has she picked up the issue that the editorial she referred to was taken from? If so, does she still think that fRoots ignores new talent from England?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:28 AM

Anyway, back in the real world - the initial poster has been conspicuously quiet. Has she picked up the issue that the editorial she referred to was taken from? If so, does she still think that fRoots ignores new talent from England?

I asked this about three thousand posts further up this dismal thread, but lots of irrelevant Captainbabble has got in the way. Request to return to topic re-seconded.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:34 AM

"Request to return to topic re-seconded"

Awwwww .... as we used to say when I played rugby: "Sod the ball, let's get on with the game".


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:44 AM

I did a back check and Faye Roche has started a number of contentious threads and then never added anything to them !


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 May 09 - 07:56 AM

this is the review,it clearly states,this review was written by James O Donnell for froots.
and it was clearly explained to you at the time that a] this was a pseudonym and that b] it never appeared in fRoots in the first place in spite of the claim on the website. This is old ground that has been covered and explained. Can we please move on?

Then there was:-
I am still waiting for an apology,and as you very well know I was right.
Well, the matter has been satisfactorily elucidated and carefully explained by a number of postings above, if anyone has the tolerence to read through them. After more than one hundred posts, we are still getting things like.....

the Froots editor got very angry with me for daring to send in a post criticising a review ,accused me publicly of hallucinating,and other similiar remarks.
the editor of Froots is well able to explain what happened,but has not even had the decency to apologise.


and then
I never accused Ian of writing the review,I criticised his magazine for publishing it.
I owe no one an apology,every person has a right to write about a review to the editor of any magazine /newspaper.

But, as has been explained to you, this never actually appeared in fRoots and the person who actually wrote it under a pseudonym is yet another person that you have one of your pointless public disputes with.

and then
this review quite clearly states[and still did so last night]that it first appeared in Froots.
But as was carefully explained to you at the time, this review did not appear in fRoots (though I have established that it was submitted but never published). The website that claims that it was published in that magazine was wrong at the time and it still wrong.

and then again

I was led to believe it appeared in froots[as anyone else would have been].because it stated it appeared in froots
But early on in the postings at the time, it was explained to you that what you were led to believe was wrong, yet you persisted in accusing the editor of printing a review that you did not approve of in spite of the fact that you had been told that the review never appeared. (I hope all Mudcat users are reading this carefully and taking notes, because there will be exam questions on this alongside Explain the reasons for the outbreak of the First World War which are slightly less complicated)

and then
James O'Donnell James O'Driscoll
Neither person exists. One is one of your very common mistakes, the other as was explained to you at the time is a pseudonym. You know who it really is because this has been explained to you, but I won't name him here because it is another of the people that you don't like, so you will probably end up being rude about him here.

Well, there are others that I could quote, but I feel that I have made my point. However, I would like the person who wrote all of the italicised quotations above to consider three things:-
1] It is possible to have discussions and move points forward without reconsidering the same points repeatedly.
2] Some things would be best left to be resolved by private email rather than public forum outrage
3] There are people who use Mudcat who do not subscribe to the Dickmiles-o-centric Universe Theory and would like to see a broader discussion taking place on a public internet group such as this.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 08:04 AM

So is Faye Roche a real person or a nuisance-maker then? An agent-provocateur from FolkClubs-R-Us Monthly monthly? Or an anagram? Maybe the person who suggested this thread had leaked from Mud-e-celidh knows something we don't? Maybe s/he knows where we live and all our houses are being burgled while we're glued to our screens. I'm going out for some fresh air, and locking the door behind me.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 09 - 08:08 AM

Er, um, sorry to drag this thread back towards the topic but any chance of a response to my posting of 12 May 09 - 08:36 PM?

Bearded Fundamentalist spokesperson for the FLF (Folkistan Liberation Front not to be confused with the FLF - Front for the Liberation of Folkistan)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Gedi
Date: 14 May 09 - 08:27 AM

Thank you Vic for outlining all this nonsense so clearly. I have to say I've read all the above with some bemusement (and amusement!)and your post has clarified things somewhat. That people could hijack a thread so completely and rake up what is clearly a very old greivance which has nothing to do with the current opening post strikes me as being bizarre in the least. Clearly a lot of unresolved bitterness there!

Can we please calm things down, cut out all this unpleasantness and name calling etc, etc, and return to a sensible discussion?

For what its worth I have never read this or any other publication on folk music but I think the idea of some kind of internet blog or similar might be good.

But hang on, isn't that what Mudcat does???

cheers
Ged


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:24 AM

Vic, I appreciate that you write for fRoots, and therefore you feel beholden to defend the magazine and Ian at all times. I'd not use the word 'grovelling' here, as that would be rude, so let's just use 'loyalty' here instead, shall we.

Good to see loyalty.

But, please understand that over the years, fRoots and it's editor have upset more than a few people with things they have published and their 'in yer face' attitude.

If you choose to run a magazine along the lines of "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn!", then you have to put up with people going ape-shit now and then.

What goes around, comes around.

I'm not bitter towards Ian, frankly I couldn't give a shite either way about fRoots, couldn't even be arsssssssssed to write about the piece he did on Show of Hands recently. I took one look at the photos he'd used, noticed he'd used one from waaaaaay back, one that I took him to task for on the old BBC board, and smiled...realising that he was sending out a little message there...I chose to ignore it completely, mainly because my nose is way too busy buried inside 'Songlines' to give a shite.

I know how it feels though, to have things written about you that aren't true, and then to be stopped from replying to those things.
It's a form of bullying, in my book..and if Dick is getting upset, well, maybe he has a right to.

Indeed, it wasn't so long ago that Ian let Diane infer that I was racist, on his board. It was only when I said I'd kick his arss from here to kingdom come if he didn't remove it, that he let me put a message on there...although, of course, being Ian, he 'edited' it for me...How kind. (rolls eyes up to heaven)

Some editors love to control. That's what their boards are about. Only those who bow and kowtow to those kind of editors are permitted on there. Only those who want to bow and kowtow WANT to go there in the first place, usually for their own ends, particularly if they're musicians of course, always hoping that the Great God Editor will smile kindly on their begging bowl...

If you build your reputation upon being shitty to various artists, encouraging the most putrid reviews of CDs and bringing your scathing ARSS campaign over to other boards, then don't be surprised if your ARSS gets kicked, hard, over and over.

And you don't have to worry, or lick editor's bums any more, because some editors truly don't give a shite about shite...So there you go.

And now, I'll leave all the ARSS lickers to carry on in this thread with their "Oh, MY, HOW can *anyone* be so beastly about fRoots when it's the most wonderful magazine on the planet?"

Yeah, right!

I'm off to take a look in here...

SONGLINES MAGAZINE

SONGLINES MYSPACE


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:28 AM

Bryan Creer wrote:-
Could you lend me your copy of the magazine, Vic?


Yes


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:40 AM

Thanks, Vic. See you this evening.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:43 AM

Lizzie,
Thank you very much for your kind and well-considered comments about me in the posting above.

However, I would ask you to re-read the following two pieces of advice that I gave above and apply them to your own postings. I refer to the posting where I wrote:-
1] It is possible to have discussions and move points forward without reconsidering the same points repeatedly.
2] Some things would be best left to be resolved by private email rather than public forum outrage


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:44 AM

Oh dear, what's that poor bloke Mr Broughton done to deserve this sort of "support"? Doen't he have enough problems trying and failing to get Songlines to keep up. editorially, with fRoots?

There's are two things you call always rely on throughout madlizziecornish's most demented and barking rantings:

(1) the inability to recognise the difference between "imply" and "infer", &

(2) the consistent use of a greengrocer's apostrophe in the pronoun "its".


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:54 AM

1] It is possible to have discussions and move points forward without reconsidering the same points repeatedly.
2] Some things would be best left to be resolved by private email rather than public forum outrage




Absolutely agree with you, Vic. May I politely suggest you tell Ian exactly that as well. Then it would stop him from having to mention me 'out of the blue' on his site, from time to time.

Thank ooo...


Glad to see your'youre'you're paying attention, diane. ;0)

"Now tell me' " (she said gently, as she eased her patient back into the examination chair) "when did this infatuation with apostrophe's firs't begin to manif'est it'self?"


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 May 09 - 10:31 AM

"Absolutely agree with you Vic"
Sadly Lizzie, if your postings actually equated with your statement, I suspect that Vic wouldn't have felt the need to make the comments that he did.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Captain Jack Sparrow
Date: 14 May 09 - 10:56 AM

I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:02 AM

I agree Cap'n Sparrow. Not since the Munich conference in 1938 has there been such a complete meeting of minds. I look forward to Peace in Our Time.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:14 AM

I get the idea that this Faye Roche character is someone well known to regular mudcat thread users. The only references to "Faye Roche", when you Google the name, all lead back to this thread....

I don't believe in coincidence.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:18 AM

The postman came while I was out. Morris dancers on the cover again, I see. And not one but two features on cute young folk awards winners. And an encouragement to join the EFDSS. Somebody out there will be complaining on a world music blog that there aint enough African music in it.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:31 AM

I get the idea that this Faye Roche character is someone well known to regular mudcat thread users. The only references to "Faye Roche", when you Google the name, all lead back to this thread.... I don't believe in coincidence.

Light dawns - hits forehead. Faye Roche - Folk Roots - FR. No, I don't believe in coincidences either. Have we all been trolled?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:35 AM

Nice video from youtube featuring

Essex Longsword Girls

on the English Dance & Song web page


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:37 AM

I think Faye is real enough. She's been posting here since last year.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:38 AM

Folknacious, that link hadn't occurred to me, but......no I think it may well be some very familiar to mudcat regualrs and probably familiar to posters on the fRoots Come Write Me Down threads.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 11:59 AM

I'm still wondering if we've been set up by F.R. - if you see what I mean - no such thing as bad publicity etc. And there's me being supportive.

Oh, 200


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:02 PM

Re-read first post. Especially last line. Ah. Hits forehead again. Do you mean we've got the T.B. Blues?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:09 PM

You mean these three and a half lines?

"BTW, I'm not grinding my own axe- I've retired from the circuit for now owing to pressures of work. But there are some astoundingly good new performers around, and it's a pity that the one national magazine in the UK chooses to ignore them."

I,m awaiting the fRoots hordes to come thundering in to defend Fortress Anderson against The Paranoids (sounds like a Dr. Who alien)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 May 09 - 12:33 PM

"Absolutely agree with you Vic"
Sadly Lizzie, if your postings actually equated with your statement, I suspect that Vic wouldn't have felt the need to make the comments that he did. <<<<

Irene, you've been telling me orf for years. Please...do put a folkie sock in it, there's a good girl. Yeesh!

It's great, seeing the dawning of the day begin to rise in the eyes of the innocent... :0)

I told you, Ian loves it all, bad news, good news, he laps it up. He's a very mischievious little munchkin on the quiet, with a good sense of humour...and....an OFF button. LOL


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 May 09 - 02:23 PM

Ah another contentious thread on Mudcat. I agree with the wise words of one Judy Dyble, without reviewing every word in this thread, fRoots has carried on reviewing musical forms and artists that are, by and large, thrown into that great pile of "other" music in most record stores. I have been impressed by the evolution of the magazine, since I first started looking at it here in the U.S. in the early 90's. I don't always agree with their assesment of the next big thing, or certain reviews, or quite frankly some of his editorials. I DO however appreciate that we have a magazine that covers those "other" forms of music in a nice package, and looks great. I am a fan of much roots music, on a global scale. fRoots is the best choice in magazine for me therefore, as others have suggested, there are other choices for a more British Isles-centric music magazine. Given a choice between SOnglines, Global Rhythm and fRoots, I'll take fRoots every time. And much like NOrman D, I have no affiliation with any magazine. The one thing that used to irk me about fRoots is the abundance of pics, and inclusion of 20 year old tracks on some of the freebie cd's of Mr. Anderson's various bands over the years! Play nice people, its just a magazine-not the fucking bible!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 09 - 02:33 PM

I'd like to repeat my previous comments about UK folkies eating their young. Do you folks ever get together and enjoy each other's music, or do you just get together to brawl?

Lighten up, people. Try to act like you're civilized and intelligent. Or is it true that the "British Folk Scene" is just a bunch of loonies? I'm not going to try to figure out who's right and who's wrong in a situation like this. All I know is that this thread, like so many others, is beyond what one would consider to be civil discussion.

I just can't figure out what to do about this endless British squabbling. I get all sorts of complaints about so-and-so being Evil and Deceitful, but it looks to me like you're ALL evil and deceitful. Maybe I should just shut down every thread that shows the slightest hint of animosity, and maybe then people would learn to discuss things in a civil manner.

If you have suggestions, contact me by personal message. I'm not going to close this thread - yet. If you wish to discuss fRoots Magazine and folk clubs, do so - but do it civilly.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 09 - 02:44 PM

Joe, nothing on this thread bears the slightest resemblance to anything that happens on the "British Folk Scene". Just off to see Kevin and Ellen Mitchell at The Royal Oak.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:00 PM

    Joe, nothing on this thread bears the slightest resemblance to anything that happens on the "British Folk Scene".
Yeah, I have to admit you're right there. I had a wonderful, three-week experience of the British Folk Scene when I visited a few years ago. But what's all this constant online squabbling about?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:00 PM

Joe, just be thankful that we don't all carry guns. Honestly, this is a much more civilised way to behave - hardly anyone gets killed (I'm here as living testament to that) :0


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:02 PM

Do you know, I don't think I've ever seen an argument anywhere in the British Folk Scene..... except on discussion forums.

I'm not sure what this means but there you go.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 14 May 09 - 03:08 PM

This thread lost its way and should have been shut down the moment the gratuitous attacks began plus the link to a website where similar personal attacks took place (are still taking place?)
Evil and Deceitful is wee bit strong I think, but it is indicative of the spitefulness of some toward others

and my reading material includes:

fRoots
English Dance & Song
Rock 'n' Reel

covers my musical bases pretty well, I believe


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 09 - 04:31 PM

theleveller, is it your impression that US folkies carry guns?
[grin]

-Joe, who's scared of 'em (guns, not folkies)-


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:41 PM

"I have not met and do not know Lizzie Cornish though I did just look at your MySpace page. It should be "Gandhi", by the way...."

Thank ooo very much, Norman. I've just put it round the right way. Dyslexia in action again... :0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:47 PM

Joe, I think they get all of their agro out online, then they ARE nice to one another in the 3D world.**bg**


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: glueman
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:20 PM

Only 3 or 4 people cause the grief, unfortunately they all hang out on Mudcat. In real life the apocalyptic horsemen inhabit few establishments so are easy to avoid. No chance of a fundamentalist tent at festivals to go with the chilled zone and jigs and reels marquee - yet.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:49 PM

...and .believe you me, far, far, far worse squabbling, petulance, name-calling and indeed bigotry hatefulness, pettiness and general nonsense is par for the course on the majority of music message boards in other genres elsewhere on t'Interweb.

You think this thread is bad? Pah, water off a duck's back. You should see some of the things said on quietus or urban75 or ihatemusic or ukhh or wherever...

Just to add my tuppenceworth on what appears to be Ms Cornish's chief issue with fRoots magazine - namely its zippy and often waspish thumbnail reviews. Personally, I like em very much. I think they are a valuable dose of no-nonsense opinionated straight-talk in a folk music culture that generally prefers to wrap its practitioners in cotton wall. And anyway, the fact that those bitesize reviews exist at all means that many more acts get their work discussed in an international mag that don't in any other publication. So even if they get a bad review, it's one more review than they have got anywhere else. (Personally I think music criticism of folks and roots music across the globe is much much much too patronisingly cosy and nicey and toothless and all-friends-together, but that's another thread entirely...)

I don't imagine for a second that any kind of "campaign" has ever been waged by either fRoots magazine as a whole, or by Ian Anderson (or anyone else for that matter) as individuals, against any musicians at all.They've got better things to do, such as getting on with shouting about the music they like.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 May 09 - 07:45 PM

Maybe I should just shut down every thread that shows the slightest hint of animosity, and maybe then people would learn to discuss things in a civil manner.

According to a posting a couple of days ago on the Froots Forum where the subject of this fracas came up, a total of four people are banned from there and two of them are posting on this thread. It's very quiet and civilised on the FF. Draw your own conclusions!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 09 - 05:59 AM

I am still a member of the Froots Forum.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 09 - 06:43 AM

I have apologised to Ian Anderson,by e mail. Dick Miles.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 15 May 09 - 07:09 AM

"theleveller, is it your impression that US folkies carry guns?
[grin]"

I certainly didn't want to imply that. I was just making the point that airing grudges on threads like this is less dangerous than blowing each others' heads off. Personally, I like Woody Guthrie's approach with the sign on is guitar that read 'This machine kills fascists'.

"It's very quiet and civilised on the FF. Draw your own conclusions!"

Well, the conclusion that I would draw is that they don't like people who don't share their opinions. It's either censorship or totalitarianism. I'm against both.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 May 09 - 07:21 AM

Two people banned from the fRoots forum eh, one of them has banned from every other forum as well, [ at least once ]

Dave H


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 09 - 07:23 AM

yes,I am against censorship ,totalitarianism,croneyism and arse licking.
I dont always agree with Lizzie Cornish or Walkabout verse,or Jim Carroll,or Richard Bridge,but they have a right to state their opinions,without being called barking, mad, bonkers or some other derogatory smear.
aggressive guest posts are supposed to be deleted
here is one that wasnt
Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Ralphie - PM
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:25 AM

Lizzie.
Which of the two words "Barking" and "Mad" don't you understand?
When you've spent 40 years running a magazine. Then you can criticise.
Until then button it.
Life a get (re-arrange)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 15 May 09 - 07:43 AM

With you there, Dick. Hopefully see you at Ryedale.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 May 09 - 07:48 AM

"I have apologised to Ian Anderson,by e mail. Dick Miles"

Good on you Dick, takes some guts to do that.

I'll see you at Ryedale as well.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 May 09 - 07:57 AM

Good move, Dick. Life is too short, etc. etc....

Now we've got that out of the way and regardless of the motivation (or identity) of Faye Roche, is there any chance of a polite discussion of Ian Anderson's fRooots editorial?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 May 09 - 08:24 AM

Joe Offer wonders if "the British Folk Scene" is a bunch of loonies. Firstly, you'd need to define what membership of such a grouping entails (and what a "f*lkie" is). I subscribe to neither, so I won't. If ever I think about it (which I try very hard not to), a disparate collection of tie-dye clad, bearded, tankard-wielding weirdos lurches horrendously into view. It is usually accompanied by hordes of noisy small persons sporting fairy wings and playing diablo, with yappy dogs in tow. One thing to know is not to camp anywhere near them at festivals or follow them into a pub. Unless, of course, you're looking for untuned instruments plus vocals in entirely unrelated keys cos anything's Good Enough For F*lk, according to them. NO, IT'S NOT.

People started making lists of who they know or do not in the course of the thread, an activity which I assume to be on a par with counting furry creatures (yan, tan, tethera, methera), but these have mysteriously vanished. Well, I know a handful of participants (in a vagueish sort of way) and they're not all entirely bonkers, the ones who actually care about music anyway, and that includes Dick Miles.

The other thing that's gone horrendously wrong was on the day when the Random Spam Generator was unleashed onto the internet, the sort who insist on telling you about some "new" performer you've known for decades. One such insisted on telling me in bold upper case some tripe about a performer known to me since 1963. I know exactly which website such a calumny was culled from and its been up there in the ether since 1999 so "must be true" (ha!). The US equivalent (no, you're not getting off lightly) is the sort that strolls into a thread and bor4es interminably for too many inches on something that has sod all to do with the topic.

I could get a badge which reads "No, I am not a bloody f*lkie", but why should that be necessary. I am what I've always been, a commentator, alone in my own furrow, reading fRoots.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 15 May 09 - 08:26 AM

Matt Milton – you praise fRoots for its "zippy and often waspish thumbnail reviews" adding by way of explanation that "I think music criticism of folks and roots music across the globe is much much much too patronisingly cosy and nicey and toothless and all-friends-together …"

I couldn't disagree more. One of the things which cheesed me off about fRoots was the smug and self-congratulatory tone of its "zippy" reviews – and many of its articles.   Furthermore, one of the main things which originally attracted me to the folk scene (and still keeps me attached to it) is precisely the "all-friends-together" ethos which you seem to despise.

So long as fRoots continues to provide enough paying punters with what they want, it will continue to prosper – and good luck to it. But over the years I have found it steadily less interesting and more irritating, so instead, I buy Living Tradition. It may be less edgy, and less cool, than its bigger and glossier rival but to my ears it talks more sense.

Wassail!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 May 09 - 08:35 AM

Well, I am glad that that is cleared up

L in C
The Beech next Wednesday


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 May 09 - 08:47 AM

Diane:
If ever I think about it (which I try very hard not to), a disparate collection of tie-dye clad, bearded, tankard-wielding weirdos lurches horrendously into view. It is usually accompanied by hordes of noisy small persons sporting fairy wings and playing diablo, with yappy dogs in tow [....] you're looking for untuned instruments plus vocals in entirely unrelated keys cos anything's Good Enough For F*lk, according to them.

Strange... having spent the last week or three in the company of singers and musicians, most of whom would undoubtedly ally themselves with the folk fraternity, in places as diverse as Ditchling, Lewes, Charlwood, Henfield, Wigan, Horwich and Stoke (i.e. East Sussex, West Sussex, Surrey, Lancashire and Staffordshire, for the uninitiated), I found nothing but good musicianship, excellent singing, good fellowship and not a tankard or tie-dye in sight. Apart from the beards, I must have been living in a parallel universe. Perhaps the fairy wings belong to you, Diane.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: glueman
Date: 15 May 09 - 08:51 AM

The last such publication I read was the NME for about two years in the 70s. Since then my Gallapagos has been a little remote but is spared sudden squalls like this one. On a similar basis I never watch TV, hardly ever listen to the radio and do not take a newspaper yet am able to hold my own in the weekly pub quiz based on information on my ISPs homepage in the microsecond before I hit the kill button.

Enough jetsom is caught in me net without paying for the privilege by the scoop.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 15 May 09 - 08:51 AM

"Joe Offer wonders if "the British Folk Scene" is a bunch of loonies."

I prefer to think of it as the last bastion of the great British eccentric - and long may it be so.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 May 09 - 08:56 AM

I'd like to repeat my previous comments about UK folkies eating their young. Do you folks ever get together and enjoy each other's music, or do you just get together to brawl?

Remember the old Hearme days, Joe? I think from the US, you and kat and Jeri in this thread have met me that way in playing/singing music to each other We can get together and give a song or tune and have a good time, even on line. Not saying we can't fall out too... but enjoying the music is not beyond us.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: glueman
Date: 15 May 09 - 09:00 AM

Diane's vision might be based on images of Cambridge, at least the bits captured in promotional material which contains enough pointy hats, tankards and fairy wings to send any sensible soul in the opposite direction. Such things are the exception at events we visit where 'looking a bit middle aged' is the uniform of choice, something I can pull off without even trying.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 May 09 - 09:07 AM


Diane's vision might be based on images of Cambridge


I went to the first 10, then scarcely at all since (except when paid to).

Towersey more like, though "professional" (woops, bad choice of word) "f*lkies" are rather too ubiquitous. Whatever. I'm absolutely not one. Don't ever dare suggest it.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: glueman
Date: 15 May 09 - 09:21 AM

"Don't ever dare suggest it."

Absolutely not. My own wife, a woman of some forbearance clearly, becomes a turbocharged hybrid of both Trinny and Suzannah when we as much as approach a folk do. It's a form wholly untroubled by the problems of aesthetics - charming in its way but making her want to slap people.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: NormanD
Date: 15 May 09 - 09:22 AM

Diane Easby wrote:
People started making lists of who they know or do not in the course of the thread, an activity which I assume to be on a par with counting furry creatures.....but these have mysteriously vanished.
One of the lists was mine, which I did in order to show that my support for fRoots was not based on bias according to whom I knew.

Joe Offer's moderating intervention made me realise what an arse I was to have taken part in such broygis, so I asked for the posts to be deleted. Thank you for that, Joe or whoever. I now know what to avoid, and, potentially, who to avoid.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 15 May 09 - 09:25 AM

"Towersey more like,"

Yes, I instantly recognised your description of Towersey. I only went once and hated it. It seemed to be an interminable 'middle England' garden fete with a bit of music around the periphery. I now tend to stick to local (Yorkshire) festivals – less tie-dye and pretentions and an excellent standard of music.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: glueman
Date: 15 May 09 - 09:28 AM

"I now tend to stick to local (Yorkshire) festivals – less tie-dye and pretentions and an excellent standard of music."

Totally agree and I'm not even a Yorkie.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 15 May 09 - 11:44 AM

just to remind people of the topic at hand.

fRoots magazine and folk clubs

Thank You For Not making Personal Attacks.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 09 - 12:00 PM

Snail,to try and answer your point
someone further up the thread made the assertion,that he doesnt cover grassroots acts.
to cover grassroots acts would involve spending a lot of money and time travelling around,would it not,is that practical?.
froots has to be run as a business, otherwise it would go to the wall,how can it cover grass roots acts comprehensively?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 May 09 - 12:32 PM

Actually, Dick, it was the things he DID say about folk clubs that I was interested in, not the things he doesnt cover.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 09 - 12:50 PM

Jon, remember and still sorrow for their passing...esp. hearing YOU! (Night Owl says "Hi!" and she'd even come back online if we ever got them going again.:-)

luvya


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 May 09 - 01:39 PM

That would be tempting in one way kat but I can not do it any more. Please do send Night Owl my regards. I do remember her.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 15 May 09 - 02:50 PM

" but enjoying the music is not beyond us"
I just noticed this rather snide remark.Other than noticing it, it's really not worth commenting on.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 15 May 09 - 03:56 PM

If this was all an elaborate scam by F.R. to gain publicity, it obviously backfired!! Have we ascertained whether Faye Roche is a real person, Folk Roots or shhhh-could-it-be T.B. yet? Sorry, not quite read all the posts since I last looked, tend to skip the ones from certain suspects now.

The one thing that used to irk me about fRoots is the abundance of pics, and inclusion of 20 year old tracks on some of the freebie cd's of Mr. Anderson's various bands over the years!

Personally I think their use of photos is extremely good, the new edition in particular. The one of E2 chasing the clown up the street is brilliant.

I don't think the other comment is right, is it? I think I know the names of "Mr Andersons various bands"; Hot Vultures, English Country Blues Band, Tigermoth, Blues Blokes 3; and the only one I can find in the CD track index on the Froots site is Tigermoth, one track on CD7 out of what is it, over 30 CD's now, must be around 500 tracks? I don't have the earliest ones but am I missing something? Don't tell me we have a hallucination pandemic here!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 15 May 09 - 04:05 PM

Folknacious that's a complete list of Ian Anderson's (not that one!!)various bands. Trying to find anything other than Tiger Moth seems to be one of the hardest jobs in the world. Maybe getting in touch with the man might help.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 May 09 - 04:21 PM

Folknacious, I was talking about a little self promotion that Anderson used within the magazine for his own projects (ok, I guess its his right to do so!) and reissues, etc. I said nothing about the overall quality of the magazine, or did you miss this- " I have been impressed by the evolution of the magazine, since I first started looking at it here in the U.S. in the early 90's." You could be right about the cd's, but I know I'm right about yet another pic of a Tiger Moth reissue or what have you appearing fairly often...but I'm not going to dig out 15 years or so of issues to prove it to you. Maybe I should have said minor quibble, but I like the magazine, very much, so please don't associate me with hallucinogens.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 May 09 - 04:24 PM

" but enjoying the music is not beyond us"
I just noticed this rather snide remark.Other than noticing it, it's really not worth commenting on.


So you can both comment on and misinterpret something not worth the effort of commenting on.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 09 - 04:31 PM

If you knew Jon, you'd know it was not a snide remark at all. What's wrong with you all...I thought you wrote the book on irony?

Jon, I understand and lament a bit, but I do have those two files you posted for us and have enjoyed them immensely. Somewhere I think I also have a couple of tapes I made of those HearMe sessions. Maybe someday I'll find them and see what I got...not sure the quality will be any good, though.:-)

kat


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 May 09 - 05:36 PM

Thanks kat. While, yes. reflecting, I had hoped my tone in that post was (to this UKer) light hearted


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 May 09 - 06:05 PM

Ian was in Jethro Tull, although I expect everyone knows that. :0)

Shhhh don't tell Joe I'm here, else I'll be sent to bed with no tea! lol


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 May 09 - 07:07 AM

Lizzie ... for goodness sake ... I'm assuming that you intended that as a joke ?? In which case not fair to mislead gullible folks who might think that Ian really WAS in that group !!!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 16 May 09 - 11:49 AM

which part of Ian Anderson (NO, not that one!!) don't you understand...?

I've printed it every time I've mentioned Ian Anderson's (no NOT that one!!) name


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 May 09 - 01:29 PM

"Lizzie ... for goodness sake ... I'm assuming that you intended that as a joke ?? In which case not fair to mislead gullible folks who might think that Ian really WAS in that group !!!"

Well, he was. Just a different Ian, that's all. :0) chuckle!

There you go again, Irene. Sheesh but you tell me off sooooo much. Do you think you should see a therapist about it? ;0)

Fer goodness sake, Ian has a great sense of humour. I used to say that all the time about him on the BBC board and he'd come back with something funny, usually...apart from that time when he didn't and he verbally stuck his tongue out at me...and I crossed him off my birthday party list for that year and told him I wasn't ever going to sit next to him again, or give him even a teaspoon of my jelly! Hurrummmmph!

Ah, those were the days.   The Good Ol' Days, when humour abounded on the BBC board, witty and jolly commemts, and then, along came The Serious Ones, and it all got terribly complicated.

Anyways ups, what's this thread about again? Oh yes, fRuits in folk clubs, kind of Carmen Miranda style?

Lawdy, lawdy...and to think he keeps you folx on his board and got rid of the chuckles...

Ho hum...methinks he was having a bad day that day.....

:0)

Yes, I know Joe....I know.....

Tiger Moth (Video on Moth Dance page)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 May 09 - 02:05 PM

Before Hot Vultures , and at the same time as his Solo Career as a Blues Man , Ian was in a Trio with the late Al Jones and Harmonica player Elliot Jackson - they did at least one E P for Saydisc .
And before that , was in a SORT of jug band called 'The Back Water Juke Band , with me on Soprano Sax and Tin Whistle .


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 May 09 - 02:26 PM

And..The English Country Blues Band.. :0)

(I think he played flute in that one..) ;0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 16 May 09 - 02:38 PM

"And before that , was in a SORT of jug band called 'The Back Water Juke Band , with me on Soprano Sax and Tin Whistle ."

I've heard much about this band but have never actually heard them or seen them. Any chance of a reunion?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 16 May 09 - 02:46 PM

"I had hoped my tone in that post was (to this UKer) light hearted"
Whatever you say


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 09 - 02:59 PM

Who is Frozen Gin?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 09 - 03:01 PM

No forget it. I'm better off out of here and don't understand why I keep coming back.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 May 09 - 03:03 PM

Maybe you are another masochist , lile the rest of us Jon !


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 May 09 - 03:49 PM

Who's Frozen Gin?

Must be that geezer who used to live in John Spiers' house and stole his gin. He topped up the bottle with water so that when it came out of the freezer it was solid. He probably thinks of the tune as a compliment and about him. It isn't. Shits abound in this mythical, cotton-wool clouds-tinged, sparkly never-never land some label "the f*lk scene", just like in the r.o.t.w.

Reminds me of a piece I just wrote on Freecycling in response to some pissed-off burghers of Haringey who were somehow amazed at the discovery of mirror sites, bootsale sellers-on and complete absence of courtesy and consideration.

As for IAA's bands, the ECBB did not precede the Vultures. Indeed, it's still gigging (once in a while), as is Tiger Moth and a new(ish) combo Blue Blokes Three just to show that unlike his namesake, he ain't Living In The Past.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 May 09 - 04:01 PM

:0)

Ah, but does he farm trout?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 May 09 - 04:02 PM

...or even....salmon! LOL

Darn that 'submit' button.. :0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 16 May 09 - 07:25 PM

And before that , was in a SORT of jug band called 'The Back Water Juke Band , with me on Soprano Sax and Tin Whistle .

There is no mention of that or Jethro Tull unfunnily enough on his Myspace biog but I did see him last year at the QEH Shirley Collins festival in Hot Vultures 3 with Maggie Holland and a mandolin player. No wonder he doesn't have time to write about folk clubs, to get back on topic.

Still waiting for "Faye Roche"!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 May 09 - 07:36 PM

And who said E C B B preceded Vultures ? Ms Easby not reading posts again !!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 May 09 - 08:37 PM

I was just sort of wondering if there was any chance of a polite discussion of Ian Anderson's fRooots editorial where he does talk about folk clubs.

Bearded Fundamentalist (FLF)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:46 AM

And who said E C B B preceded Vultures?

Not me but I know who did.
Who's this Leadfingers anyway? Is this the one who walked out of the Agricultural Implements Band to form Blodwyn Pig?

On the fRoots Letters Board somebody's dragged up the Island sleeve with a pic of all those who did (or didn't) appear on a compilation LP.

http://froots.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=17247#17247


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 May 09 - 09:06 AM

APOLOGIES!!!

.... to everyone who has taken part in this vitriolic thread! The fact is that not one of us knew the evil machinations that were going on.

The fault does not lie with Ian Anderson, with Show of Hands, even with Lizzie Cornish or Dick Miles!

Fortunately, secret filming has now resolved the whole Machiavellian source of the dispute as can be seen from this YouTube video.

It is the duty of everyone who has taken part in this discussion - or even read it - to go and see the evidence this very minute and consider what has been written in the light of this evidence.

Click straight away on -

Show of Hands - Bellowhead


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 May 09 - 09:20 AM

Oh VIC! I think I lurve you!

Apart from the bit about the Folk Award...tut tut...that was absolutely marvellous! I am splitting my sides down here in Sidmouth, but you'd better hide from Bellowhead next time you see them, or you may find them trying to fit that tuba into rather a strange place!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 17 May 09 - 11:50 AM

I must say that Ian has behaved with a lot of dignity by not getting involved in this nasty thread.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 May 09 - 12:31 PM

Yup, almost as much dignity as when he used to come on the BBC, eh...Chris?   ;0)

I think Ian's quite happy to 'take it' as well as 'give it out' you know...and if you ask Diane, she'll tell you the story of how the comment I made about having a zoomed up mobility scooter all ready for Ian, at the first ever Sidmouth Folk Week, and volunteered to push him up and down the promenade, as I puuled his leg that he was too old for Sidmouth..was enjoyed very much by Ian.

Of course, Fiona used it to tell everyone in Longdogs 'Live Chat' how I hated old people...and the rest, as they do say, became internet history.

Lighten up and enjoy the thread. Ian doesn't mind having his ARSS kicked in the same way he kicks the ARSSs of others.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 May 09 - 01:56 PM

No, I haven't any "funny stories" about mobility scooters. My understanding of that particular remark is that the Ed found it mildly funny and not as gratuitously offensive as most of the rest of the stuff flying from madlizziecornish's mouth as Sidmouth Folk Week was attempting a takeover from the International Festival in 2005.   It does not, however, merit repetition.

What I am wondering though is how exactly will the current Sidmouth organising committee feel about being likened to the 3rd Reich.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: theleveller
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:11 PM

"What I am wondering though is how exactly will the current Sidmouth organising committee feel about being likened to the 3rd Reich."

Probably depends on whether they have a sense of humour or not. Personally, I find it essential to get through life.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:21 PM

Actually, I don't remember Ian ever being amused by your comments, Lizzie, but I'm probably wrong. I don't think Diane or Fiona found many of them funny, either.

Normally Ian posts on any thread on this board (and the BBC one) that attacks him or fRoots. I've no doubt he's followed this thread but has retained his dignity by not posting, giving no-one a chance to make attacks that are even more personal and offensive.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:28 PM

I agree with that theleveller, the humour that is

oh and the origins of Frozen Gin (was that masked stranger Jon Boden?)is as follows

The Sloe Gin Set is: Frozen Gin / The Vinegar Reel / The Sloe

by the by, for our Canadian readers, Bellowhead are doing a mini Canadian tour in July

lots of jumping up and down involved, and the ability to have a good time is, of course, a good idea!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:33 PM

Jon Boden wrote The Vinegar Reel.
John Spiers wrote Frozen Gin.
The Sloe is Trad.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:41 PM

Chris Murray: apart from the two usual suspects, this thread seems to be pretty much pro-fRoots (can't I've read absolutely all of it!). Ceratinly the vast majority of contributors to Mudcat are in favour of the magazine, much like contributors to the fRoots Forum


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:42 PM

Jon Boden wrote The Vinegar Reel.
John Spiers wrote Frozen Gin.
The Sloe is Trad.

Thanks Diane, I couldn't remember who wrote what without finding my copy of Burlesque, which is around here somewhere.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 May 09 - 03:36 PM

"No, I haven't any "funny stories" about mobility scooters."

You don't????

Oh, I have TONS! You need to come and live in Sidmouth for a while...
I'm going to have a sparkly piypul one, with a 'Show of Hands 4 EVER!' flag on it, fluttering wildly in the breeze!

"My understanding of that particular remark is that the Ed found it mildly funny"

Nope, you said, over on Myspace, that Ian had found that remark VERY funny. It was the same you told me about meeting fiona, and Ian meeting her too. I zink yoo muzt be getting forgetful... :0)


>>>"Actually, I don't remember Ian ever being amused by your comments, Lizzie, but I'm probably wrong. I don't think Diane or Fiona found many of them funny, either.

Normally Ian posts on any thread on this board (and the BBC one) that attacks him or fRoots. I've no doubt he's followed this thread but has retained his dignity by not posting, giving no-one a chance to make attacks that are even more personal and offensive."<<<<

Oh, for Gawd's sake, Chris, DO see the funny side of things now and again. Ian, Diane and I, for your information, used to have a riotous time on the BBC, outdoing each other with wit and dry, black humour. It brought LOADS of people into that board, and lit it up.

Diane can be a little er...erm...now and again, but I've always appreciated her humour and she can be bloody funny at times! Also, for your information, Diane, Ian and I, have, at various times, all spoken to each other 'behind the scenes', sometimes with **!*!*!* flying around and sometimes not.

You, along with just a few others, spoilt a great threesome and helped to make the BBC board a shadow of it's former self. NONE of you knew what I was about, what I was trying to do, what I did....because you were all so busy willing to be led astray by someone with a deeply personal (and totally bizarre) grudge that you lost your sense of humour along the way and that board lost something special...and THAT was an absolute passion for the music. Now, the most passionate it gets is when one of you spots me, and you all jump and down running to teacher about it.."Miss, MISS, she's over THERE, LOOOOK!"....spending so much time pressing the darned complaints button that you don't even probably read half of what's on the board in the first place...

And now, I'll leave you all to go running to Joe about me, and give him a headache, so he'll come to me and tell me not to be on this thread anymore.

Sooooo bizarre!

Anyways ups, I expect Ian thinks that video is a hoot...and of course, Diane will have spluttered all over her desk whilst watching it..

Get Diane to give you some humour lessons, life will be much more fun.

Oh..and no need to grovel to Ian, he's quite capable of looking after himself.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 May 09 - 03:43 PM

"I don't think Diane or Fiona found many of them funny, either."

Fer Goodness sake, Diane loves me really..haven't you sussed that one out yet? :0) We both respect each other's humour and passion for the music. She doesn't care when I call her Sweetums, and I don't care when she calls me madlizziecornish or the Sidmouth Seagull.

Fiona was way too intent on proving to you all that I was a troll, and tried her hardest to be the new Diane. She never made it, I'm afraid, just caused a deep unrest. Once, we were 'friends' on that board, but she decided to change it all, despite me asking her, over and over, to stop. And now, probably best to let any more talk of her stop, as she's not around to put her side of the story forward, but I can assure you, that if you want to join Longdogs, and ask them exactly what happened, they'll tell you the whole bloomin' story, as it happened in front of about 6 or more witnesses.

And now, back to fRoots and Ian Anderson....


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 May 09 - 03:58 PM

Er...I was just..um...sort of wondering if...maybe...there was any...sort of...chance of a...more or less...polite...um...discussion of Ian Anderson's fRooots editorial.

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 17 May 09 - 05:01 PM

I asked the question a few posts back, and, apparently, the answer is a resounding no!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 17 May 09 - 06:13 PM

Lizzie, I don't know what you're talking about - but you've got me wrong. The only times I respond to anything you write is to try to calm things down and be the 'voice of reason'. Clearly I'm not very good at it. I think postings on a message board can be misunderstood and I think that's what must have happened.

I was posting on the BBC board before you were. How could I have spoilt a great threesome? Your attitude to me changed as soon as you knew I was a teacher. Before that you thought I was OK. Who is this person who led me astray?

I quite enjoy it when you storm the BBC board and I don't grass on you. It was Jim Moray who spotted you last time, back in February.

I'd never grovel to Ian (why would I?) or go running telling tales to Joe. I don't know who Jo is.

I'll take your word for it that you and Diane were friends - but it seems unlikely!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 May 09 - 06:54 PM

Nooo, not friends...just occasionally nice to one another.. :0)

No Chris, you're being a teacher has nothing to do with it.

Anyways, back to frooty trooty...


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 18 May 09 - 06:35 AM

Well, I don't know what else I'm supposed to have done. As I said, you've 'misunderestimated' me.

My comments on this thread about Ian were supposed to be funny, as are most of the comments that I make. It's so easy to misunderstand someone when there comments are written down.

Ian would normally have joined in with any discussion about fRoots. The fact that he hasn't joined in this time shows admirable restraint.

I think maybe I won't contribute to this forum any more, for a while, as I seem to be (unintentionally) causing bad feeling. I ought to take my own advice and not let you upset me!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Mitch2
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:56 AM

I haven't been here for a few days so I've just seen the last week's worth of posts.

Jeri- we didn't intend any confusion. Faye and I are a couple, and we sometimes use the same computer. Hence the identity confusion; sorry!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 09 - 07:08 AM

froots brief [as I understand it]is to cover roots music from around the world including England and the UK.It is not a magazine that is specifically UK FOLK CLUB /FESTIVAL MAGAZINE.
The Living Tradition is.
because Froots has a much wider brief,it is[imo] going to be more difficult for it to cover every grass roots band,from every country,it also has an economic constraint[this applies to all magazines]it needs advertising to help fund the magazine.
a lot of grass roots bands cannot afford to advertise in magazines such as froots,and so consequently dont get exposure,it is a chicken and egg situation.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:22 AM

I feel sure somebody could write a good song about this. In fact someone has and sang one last night in The Beech, Chorlton, and I think it might escape and become well known.

I just need Matthew to give me the nod and a chorus could be released into the community

Cheers

L in C


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST, Chris Smith
Date: 24 May 09 - 11:38 AM

Anyone who's managed to read through this thread this far - "the horror, the horror" - but who has never seen or read a copy of fRoots magazine might care to take a look at the latest edition, here:

fRoots - June 2009 - No 312

and compare the content they will find therein with the content as portrayed by some of the posted comments here.

A big 'thank you' to Ian for producing Southern Rag, Folk Roots, and fRoots throughout the last thirty (plus) years.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 May 09 - 11:47 AM

Though if you like it, of course, in future you should buy your own copy, people!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 24 May 09 - 12:03 PM

Though if you like it, of course, in future you should buy your own copy, people!

Yes, according to the Froots board today that linked copy is only put up as a demo of their forthcoming cheaper-for-overseas digital version, and for current non-readers to see what the paper mag itself looks like. It won't normally be a free read. A loss leader then!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Karen Tweed
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:24 PM

I have to say that I never usually have time to read or take part in these kind of discussions - I prefer to have discussions face to face or atleast where I can hear the tone of someone's voice because so much can be misinterpreted.

I have to say that the comments re Reg Meuross by DE I find both misinformed (or maybe she misunderstood his comments?) and rather misguided. Reg is, like Chris Wood, entirely professional in his conduct (and believe me there are plenty of misogynist promoters / radio presenters and journalists out there - both male and female) and both guys are brave enough to comment when they feel injustice has been done. Others don't as they are afraid that they may never get a decent review again....

Popular to contrary belief, many of us in the professional music network don't take reviews too seriously or we would pack it all in. It's only one opinion and totally subjective, even if it is from an informed viewpoint. One persons meat is anothers poison. Thank God.

What is maddening though is that there are remits that cannot be sustainable - world music has never meant world music and I just wish there were no categories so that we could walk into record stores and everything would be filed A-Z with someone behind the desk who knew as much as Andrew Cronshaw about all types of music.

Discussions like these can get entirely out of hand. We are all in favour of tradition, quality and integrity. Why can't we all just live and let live?

Because human condition is to criticize and compete.

But what do I know? I'm just an accordion player from Willesden.

No need to reply - this is just an observation and I shall resume my state of non participation in these discussions.

I think that everyone is doing as best they can to keep good music and tradition alive.

There is no best.... or as Martin Hayes says,

'The best (music) is yet to come...."

Karen Tweed


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:29 PM

The lastes thoughts of Chairman Anderson on folk clubs here

Sounds like we had a lucky escape in the late 1970's!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:59 AM


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:37 AM

Well, here's one to counter all the negative comments about fRoots. The magazine and its editor Ian Anderson have just been named for a very important award. Here is the announcement:-

"WOMEX 10 Award for Professional Excellence

WOMEX is proud to announce the winner of the WOMEX 10 Award for Professional Excellence: Ian Anderson (UK), founder and editor-in-chief of the magazine fRoots, on behalf of the independent press.

He will receive his Award on Sunday 31 October 2010, at the Awards Ceremony. The laudation will be offered by the leading journalist Robin Denselow (UK), known for his work with the BBC and The Guardian among others.

Since 1999 we have given the WOMEX Award to extraordinary artists and professionals from our community deserving of special praise but we have never ever awarded the media. And yet the independent media play such a crucial role for our kind of music business, part of us, supporting us and providing a vital forum for topics that otherwise would fall through the grid or answer only to big-media-corp interests. With the Internet bringing change to all traditional business models, offering the media world its own urgent challenges - now, more than ever is the time to show our support for an independent media.

We will let Robin Denselow take over from here to shed light on Ian Anderson's voyage:

"1979 may have been a great year for British rock and pop music, but this was a terrible year for folk music or roots music. It was a year of great post-punk bands like XTC, the Specials, Dire Straits, and of course disco. As I noted in one of my reviews that year, 'Folk rock, once one of the healthiest strands in British popular music, is in a pretty miserable state these days'."

"But this was the year when a young folk music musician with gloriously eclectic taste and an international outlook, decided to start a fanzine, published quarterly, called The Southern Rag. In doing so he helped to kick-start the new folk revival that was to come, and the success of what came to be known as 'world music'."

"The Southern Rag did well. It attracted international subscribers, and in 1984 it became a monthly called Folk Roots. It has always been charmingly quirky, in terms of lay-out and design, and in 1999 the editor made the decidedly quirky decision to change the name to fRoots. And heaven help anyone who pronounced it the way it was spelled and called it 'froots'."

"The man responsible for all this was, of course Ian Anderson. Also known as Ian A. Anderson, to avoid confusion with a certain flute-player, he had already enjoyed a lengthy and colourful career as a musician, independent record-label pioneer and producer, specialising first in country blues before switching to what is now called Psych-folk."

"His musical career has continued, of course, most recently with Blue Blokes 3. But it's as the editor of fRoots that he has revived the fortunes of roots music, in Britain and beyond. Along with Charlie Gillett and Joe Boyd, he was one of the small group who dreamed up the term 'World Music' in 1987. And as all those who read fRoots will know, he is an enthusiast, a maverick and a guide, who promotes great new artists long before they have been discovered by the mainstream media. That's why an independent magazine like fRoots is so vital to the music scene. And that's why it's only right that Ian Anderson - exemplar of the independent roots press - should receive this award."


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 11:31 AM

Excellent! Congratulations to Ian - couldn't happen to a nice fella!


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 12:22 PM

Congratulations to Ian Anderson.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 12:25 PM

Is Womex 10 a new kind of Toilet Cleaner, used at WOMAD?   And if so, why has Ian won it? Was he on Volunteer Duty or something?   

Cripes! I'd forgotten how funny this thread was! I've been laughing fit to burst over here in Torquay.

Oh..and could someone suggest to Grumpy Ed that he starts a new magazine up called fRoots&aCoustic because THAT will get him out of this pickle that he's in...He can have photos of Seth, Show of Hands, Mumford & Sons, Coldplay, Hotplay and tons of averts for Womex 10 all over it!!

Tell him to totally ignore all those FusspotFolkies who've got him into this state in the first place....and tell him to get his flute out (not in public though) stand on one leg, and GO FOR IT!

:0)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 12:30 PM

By the way..an 'avert' is a very rare kind of fRoots dimentor, known to fly over fRoots Towers only at full moon.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:06 PM

"That's why an independent magazine like fRoots is so vital to the music scene. And that's why it's only right that Ian Anderson - exemplar of the independent roots press - should receive this award."      
this is curious, can anyone give examples of the artists described; who are the people discovered by Ian Anderson?, that are later discovered by the mainstream media?.
I am not saying they dont exist, just cant think of any names.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 07:31 AM

I would think that the majority of the better, younger British folk singers and bands - and there are plenty of them - I heard their names for the first time in fRoots. It has been Ian's passion in recent years to promote the younger generation, though he does not do this slavishly. He worries publicly about young performers who he feels are taking the music in a wrong direction and he gives his reasons for doing so - and that is not an easy editorial position to adopt when the majority of your income comes from advertisers.

I don't always agree with his enthusiasms or his dislikes, by any means, but I have never doubted his commitment and integrity and certainly not his hard work in producing over three decades a magazine of a consistently high standard.

Of course, his editorial policy is not going to please everyone and there are performers, particularly singer/songwriters who feel that they are not getting their fair crack of the whip in coverage, but the reasons for this are clearly stated in his published editorial policy. This does not detract from the considerable achievement by Ian and his small team. I am very pleased that they have been given this major award and would like to congratulate all concerned.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 09:38 AM

really,Well we all have different ideas about who we think are good.
I consider Damien Barber Mike Wilson ElizaCarthy, The Young uns to be among the better younger performers, none of whom I heard of for the first time in Froots, in fact I encountered them in folk clubs and at folk festivals.
I too CONGRATULATE Ian Anderson,I am sure he works very hard, and is passionate about the music.
this statement however is hype; "who promotes great new artists long before they have been discovered by the mainstream media."
please, who are these artists that have been taken up by the mainstream media?
sadly,very few roots artists get taken up by the mainstream media, they[the mainstream media seem to prefer DanielODonnell , westlife, and boy groups.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 10:19 AM

If you were to take a look at even the list of cover features down the years, let alone the full features index I would be very surprised if you didn't find a lot of names of artists from all over the world who got their first UK coverage in Froots - from the likes of Kathryn Tickell as a teenager right back in the 1980s to Amadou & Mariam a decade back to Devon Sproule a few years ago to Ian King and Nancy Wallace last year to - oh, go and read it yourself! Seems that it never featured Dick Miles though, but it did review 5 of his records, I see from the reviews index. I wonder what they can have said?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 10:49 AM

Dick Miles wrote:-
I consider Damien Barber Mike Wilson ElizaCarthy, The Young uns to be among the better younger performers


Yes, Dick, but the likes of Damien, Mike and Eliza have been around for a long time. I first booked Eliza with Nancy when she was 18 and that is a year short of half her lifetime ago; Damien, I believe, is older than Eliza. By the better, younger British folk singers and bands I meant the plethora of teens and twenties new on the folk scene in the last two or three years and struggling to make a name for themselves and who, as a club organiser, I should know about. I know that fRoots offices are inundated with new albums and demos which do get a hearing and the ones that stand out get a mention in the magazine. Often, I follow these up; sometimes I am disappointed; sometimes I am delighted, but I am being made aware of a great many names and that is a very useful service.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 10:55 AM

folknacious they were good reviews,
You are missing my point, which is that sadly hardly any roots performers that get higlighted in Froots get into the mainstream media.
please name me the piles of roots performers who get in to the top ten?
in the case of of Kathryn Tickell some of us had heard of her before she was mentioned in froots, please dont tell me that an occasional appearance on Womans hour[YES iagree it is MAINSTREAM MEDIA] really constitutes, a HIGHLEVEL presence in the mainstreram media .
However in Ireland there is more presnce for traditional /roots coverage on television and national radio ,and I do not think it is because froots have covered those people in their magazine.
it is because the irish media realise the it is part of their heritage and promote ITM, on television on radio rte 1[ceili house] and other programmesraidio na gaeltachta and to a lesser extent Roots music[reels to ragas lyric fm]


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 10:57 AM

ok, vic, fair enough points.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 11:04 AM

Vic makes a good point about relative perceptions of youth. When I go to Bodmin Folk Club, I am usually the youngest person in the room (I'm 48), but when I was in the Rif Mountain Refuge at Leigh Festival a few weeks ago, I was almost certainly the oldest. When the likes of Vic Legg and Lar Cann actually started the Bodmin Club, they were younger than either!
Most of my friends on the folk scene are either 10 + years older than me or 10 + years younger. I started regularly attending folk clubs 25 or more years ago as a result of reading the first news stand issue of Folk Roots (as it then was). The magazine was essential to me then, and still is now.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:14 PM

if I can play devils advocate for a minute:
supposing Froots were to be successful in introducing roots music to the mainstream media, would the music benefit, or would the musical content have to be diluted to make it acceptable to tinpan alley?
I am sure Ian would like to see the music undiluted, but is it better to introduce a commercialised form of roots music or to keep the music pure, does quality suffer as a result of commercial pressure.
I am sure we would all like to see the music become a little more popular, but the dichotomy is that roots music can[possibly] become something else and loose its roots if it becomes[commercial] and part of the tin pan alley// top ten/ popular music world


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:53 PM

I know from past experiences that there's little point in arguing with you, Mr Miles, or expecting you to read what's not in your imagination, but the award citation thing, as quoted by Vic Smith, apparently says Froots "promotes great new artists long before they have been discovered by the mainstream media." Nothing in there about commerciality, high level presences, the top ten, the Irish media, and whatever "tin pan alley" is (you've lost me there, and I'm too lazy to google). Just that Froots has written about many artists first, before others outside the specialist press. Do you really dispute that? Did you bother to look at those indexes I linked earlier?


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:58 PM

I stopped buying fRoots roughly 10 years ago, when Ian A told someone on the fRoots letter's page to 'fuck off and start their own magazine if they don't like his' or words to that effect. Funnily enough, he'd said the exact same thing the issue before hand and I'd agreed with him - in that case the recipient of his anger seemed really as though he needed to be told to fuck off - but the second time... well, my memory tells me that it was a harmless enough letter which got an extremely rude reply. And that was the moment I finally had enough of his annoyingly egotistical 'more-important-knowledgeable-and-special-than-thou' behaviour.

So, I stopped buying it every issue. I've bought it since then maybe once a year. I don't even really go for the double CD issues as they went through a phase with seemingly a lot of Parisian produced African music, which for me 9 times out of 10 means exceedingly glossy and over produced African music. I don't like any of my music exceedingly over produced and glossy, so I stopped buying those. I have first heard some great things from previous CDs though - I especially remember the recording of Bob Copper singing Rags & Old Iron.

However, Ian A seems, from a distance, to have a slightly milder editorial & personal slant now and I'm slowly warming to the magazine again. Certainly, I sincerely hope it doesn't close. Colin Irwin and Andrew Cronshaw especially I consider very knowledgeable, interesting and reliable writers. In my eyes Ian A does deserve this award, as I consider fRoots to have been an important publication - However I'm extremely glad he wasn't awarded it ten or even five years ago as I have the feeling his already mightily swollen head would have exploded.

Good luck Ian, I hope fRoots continues for a good long while yet. Oh - and in reference to the discussion on your message board re Mumford & Sons - go ahead, do an issue with all the blighters in one fell swoop - someone mentioned Nick Cave - ask them interesting questions and it'll be an interesting piece.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:04 PM

So who are these artists that have been discovered by the mainstream media?, yes, I do dispute it, because ROOTS MUSIC is not featured extensively in the mainstream media in England.
In Ireland it has a higher profile in the mainstream media [but Froots is not responsible]
Folknacious your problem is that despite your perceived interest in roots music, you have the blinkered views of a little Englander, all the time you talk from an english perspective[ what happens in England].
dont you think that the mainstream media might possibly be different in Ireland or other countries, there is life beyond Walthamstow you know, even if there is not much life in it.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:14 PM

I stopped buying fRoots roughly 10 years ago, when Ian A told someone on the fRoots letter's page to 'fuck off and start their own magazine if they don't like his' or words to that effect. Funnily enough, he'd said the exact same thing the issue before hand and I'd agreed with him - in that case the recipient of his anger seemed really as though he needed to be told to fuck off - but the second time... well, my memory tells me that it was a harmless enough letter which got an extremely rude reply. And that was the moment I finally had enough of his annoyingly egotistical 'more-important-knowledgeable-and-special-than-thou' behaviour.

So, I stopped buying it every issue. I've bought it since then maybe once a year. I don't even really go for the double CD issues as they went through a phase with seemingly a lot of Parisian produced African music, which for me 9 times out of 10 means exceedingly glossy and over produced African music. I don't like any of my music exceedingly over produced and glossy, so I stopped buying those. I have first heard some great things from previous CDs though - I especially remember the recording of Bob Copper singing Rags & Old Iron.

However, Ian A seems, from a distance, to have a slightly milder editorial & personal slant now and I'm slowly warming to the magazine again. Certainly, I sincerely hope it doesn't close. Colin Irwin and Andrew Cronshaw especially I consider very knowledgeable, interesting and reliable writers. In my eyes Ian A does deserve this award, as I consider fRoots to have been an important publication - However I'm extremely glad he wasn't awarded it ten or even five years ago as I have the feeling his already mightily swollen head would have exploded.

Good luck Ian, I hope fRoots continues for a good long while yet. Oh - and in reference to the discussion on your message board re Mumford & Sons - go ahead, do an issue with all the blighters in one fell swoop - someone mentioned Nick Cave - ask them interesting questions and it'll be an interesting piece.

(apologies for the double posting, my cookies were re-set)


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:26 PM

" And as all those who read fRoots will know, he is an enthusiast, a maverick and a guide, who promotes great new artists long before they have been discovered by the mainstream media."
I offered my congrtulations To IAN., he works hard and is very committed
I am disputing that Roots music gets played extensively or has even been discoverd by the mainstream media in England, or that Froots has had any major impact on the mainstream media outside of England.
In England there is one national folk radio programme once a week, that is hardly extensive media roots music coverage.
as far asI know Froots has had no major impact on the usa mainstream media or the irish mainstream media.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:20 PM

[quote]
In England there is one national folk radio programme once a week, that is hardly extensive media roots music coverage.
[/quote]
Three progrmmes five times a week surely.
Late Junction - Tuesday - Thursday
World on 3 - Friday
World Routes - Saturday

Even if you discount LJ as mixed programming that still gives 2 hours 45 minutes across two shows.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:22 PM

Dick, reading through these recent posts - in spite of your protestations and congratulations - I detect just a touch of the curmudgeon in your comments.

Why can't we - for once - just accept that Ian has done a wonderful job with the fRoots magazine. He's ploughed his own furrow, through thick and thin, and brought his own perspective to the world of folk music and to world music. Awards are fickle things - they resound for a year and are then forgotten in the heat and excitement of the next year's award. But for one short year, Ian can celebrate decades of hard work, dedication, persistence, etc. with a simple piece of publicity. And, if the award and its publicity helps fRoots to sell a few more copies, make a bit more of an impact in the music world, reach the consciousness of a few more ignorant people - then let it flourish!

Who the devil cares whether WOMEX is a key player in the music game? Who the devil cares whether it's media hype or faux publicity or what? Who cares whether it's part of a music publicity machine? Forget the rhetoric. Stop the nitpicking. Let's, for once, just be happy that a hard-working guy and his team in the folk/world music business has been recognised and celebrated.


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:50 PM

He's ploughed his own furrow, through thick and thin, and brought his own perspective to the world of folk music and to world music. Awards are fickle things - they resound for a year and are then forgotten in the heat and excitement of the next year's award. But for one short year, Ian can celebrate decades of hard work, dedication, persistence, etc. with a simple piece of publicity. And, if the award and its publicity helps fRoots to sell a few more copies, make a bit more of an impact in the music world, reach the consciousness of a few more ignorant people - then let it flourish!
I have no problem with that.
I dont know wha tyou think you are detecting, but I detect from folknacious an attempt to stir up shit and personalise the issue, so I am making crystal clear that my objection is to Robin Denselows journalism.
PeterC,2 hours 45 minutes is not extensive mainstream roots coverage, ITS SWEET FA.
I think Ian would agree with this too, that the problem with extensive media coverage is that it does not guarantee quality.
in Ireland we have television programmes of traditional music, but the programme makers spend so much time getting the photographers to get a "right" photo, that the musicians have to go over and over the tunes ,the result is the musicians sound bored, any spontaneous life in the music is often is killed and the music suffers.






2


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Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 07:16 AM

Will Fly wrote Why can't we - for once - just accept that Ian has done a wonderful job with the fRoots magazine . . . if the award and its publicity helps fRoots to sell a few more copies, make a bit more of an impact in the music world, reach the consciousness of a few more ignorant people - then let it flourish!

It sounds like a bit less knocking and a bit more support would be helpful right now too, if you read this appeal .


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