fRoots magazine and folk clubs

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:16 PM

"Lizzie

I think you'll find that Ian and Froots whatever your opinion of either have covered both artists you mention for quite a number of years to be fair."


Now, stop tempting me, I'm being a very good girl here. :0) :0)

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:35 PM

"I walked past a folk club once so doesn't that give me the right to have a whole issue devoted to me? "

According to some of the above, only if it was in West Africa or somewhere else exotic!

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:44 PM

The cd Boxing Clever,which is a concertina compilation,and included John Kirkpatrick,TimLaycock, HarryScurfield, DickMiles,was reviewed in FolkRoots and received a good review.
I have never complained about any reviews.
Vic Smith would do better not to give his interpretation in personal messages,but would do better to let people have the original post.
MattMilton, VicSmith,Greg Stephens are all members of Froots and very regular contributors/posters to the board.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:48 PM

And your point is Captain?

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:59 PM

I didn't know you could be a "member of fRoots",Cap'n. It's a magazine, not a club. I do read it. I have never meet Ian Anderson. That about defines my relationship with fRoots

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:38 PM

If it appears in my earlier post that I was belittling EDS, my apologies to anyone involved with it. I realise it has a far smaller budget than fRoots and serves a different purpose (with it also being the society magazine of the EFDSS). It's a good read and, personally, I read every issue cover to cover (except some of the dance stuff which appals both of my left feet). As I have recently been reminded, the regular feature "The Singer, the Song and the Source" is a bit of a gem.

English Dance and Song

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:45 PM

Greg, you are a member and a regular poster of the Froots FORUM board/ come write me down discussion forum.
Impartial?
Fay, asked some questions,three members of the Froots forum ,who are regular posters contributorsto this forum,comeback with how good the magazine is,what a surprise.well they would wouldnt they[to paraphrase Mandy Rice Davies]
well he would wouldnt he[quote Mandy Rice Davies]
born Marilyn Rice-Davies in Pontyates near Llanelli, Wales, and moved to Shirley in Solihull, England. As a teenager, she appeared older than her age and at 15 got a job as a clothes model at Marshall & Snelgrove, a department store in Birmingham. At 16 she came to London and appeared as 'Miss Austin' at the Earls Court Motor Show.[1] She then got a job as a dancer at Murray's Cabaret Club in Soho where she met Christine Keeler who introduced her to her friend, the well-connected osteopath Stephen Ward, and to an ex-lover, the slum landlord Peter Rachman.[2] Rice-Davies became Rachman's mistress and was set up in the same house where he had previously kept Keeler, 1 Bryanston Mews West, Marylebone.

Rice-Davies often visited Keeler at the house she shared with Ward at Wimpole Mews, Marylebone, and, after Keeler had moved elsewhere, lived there herself, between September and December 1962. On December 14 1962 while Keeler was visiting Rice-Davies at Wimpole Mews, one of Keeler's boyfriends, John Edgecombe, attempted to enter and fired several times at the door with a gun.[3] His trial brought attention to the girls' involvement with Ward's social set, and intimacy with many powerful people, including the then Viscount Astor at whose stately home of Cliveden Keeler met the War Minister John Profumo. Profumo's brief relationship with Keeler was at the centre of the affair that caused him to resign from the government in June 1963, though Rice-Davies, herself, never met him.[4]

[edit] "Well he would, wouldn't he?

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:50 PM

Cap'n, aren't you a regular poster to the fRoots Forum as well? Doesn't prove you are a biassed supporter of the magazine, does it? My relationship to fRoots, as I have mentioned, is as a regular, and critical, reader.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:54 PM

I'm not going to ask what the resurrection of a gossipy piece of 1963 titillation (gave the phrase, you've never had it so good a whole different meaning) has to do with either Ian Anderson (no not that one!!) or the readership of fRoots.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:54 PM

Cap'n, are you accusing fRoots forum contributors of prostitution? Are you saying that Greg and Matt and Vic are doing a Mandy?

Tee hee.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:58 PM

Actually, I met an American bloke in a pub once who claimed to have slept with Christine Keeler. And this has about as much relevance to this thread as Captain Birseye's last effort!

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:01 PM

Greg Stephens wrote:-
Cap'n, aren't you a regular poster to the fRoots Forum as well?

Dick Miles
Joined fRoots Forum - 16 Nov 2007
Number of posts - 68

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:04 PM

Alright!! alright!! you lot I'm in the process of TRYING to restring my fiddle here, and can't stop laughing..

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:06 PM

How's the Profumo affair got here?

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:08 PM

Dunno, but if you hum it we'll try to sing along...

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:12 PM

I'm happy to say I was banned from their forum, since it seemed to me entirely legitimate to respond to a person who spasms about f*lk by referring to her as the c*ntess.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:13 PM

Curiouser and curiouser. So, Captain Birdseye, under another name, is a Fully Paid Up Member of fRoots. Mmmmm. Vaaaaary interesting.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Squiggle
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:13 PM

As I remember it Dick, your "Ian accused me of being a drug taker" story is because you made a completely impenetrable post to the fRoots board. It had erratic punctuation and sometimes not even spaces between the words, just like your post above in fact.

Ian, quite understandably, used the phrase "what are you on?". It's a figure of speech...

It's a question which still hasn't been answered. I'm guessing that you have full use of all your fingers seeing as your concertina playing is so accomplished (not a flippant remark by the way...) - do you read back what you've typed before pressing 'submit'? Often it seems as if you don't.

I'm surprised to hear that anyone would think that fRoots actively ignores many young performers in this country. The magazine is famous in certain quarters for being overenthusiastic to the point of putting people on the cover before they've recorded an album or done anything of note.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:19 PM

How's the Profumo affair got here?

Dunno, but if you hum it we'll try to sing along...

the chorus goes:

You've never 'ad it so good me boys,
You've never 'ad it so good
You've never 'ad it so good me boys
So early in the morning o!!!!

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:37 PM

In case anyone didn't notice the reformed Edward II or EK2 are on the cover of the current issue of fRoots.

to quote fRoots

"THE SECOND COMING
Mixing English traditional music with reggae was a bonkers notion that turned Edward II into the festival kings of the 1990s. Colin Irwin hears why they're back for just one year".

and a very welcome return too!

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:10 PM

yes, and check when I last posted.JULY 2008.
guest Squiggle, print the post and Ian Andersons reply.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:30 PM

"I'm surprised to hear that anyone would think that fRoots actively ignores many young performers in this country. The magazine is famous in certain quarters for being overenthusiastic to the point of putting people on the cover before they've recorded an album or done anything of note."

yeah, well, that's one of many reasons why I found the original first post on this thread totally baffling. It's why it's absurd to start making snide references to advertising revenues. fRoots has regularly championed people who I presume mr anderson and/or fRoots regular contributors rate very highly, regardless of their album sales.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:39 PM

It is unfortunate that the editor's comment that Faye referred to is no longer available on line. It was a little... odd. Can anyone reproduce it here so we can see the point of Faye's remarks?

I havent the patience to type it all out, but it started:

"I come in praise of music in small rooms. I love the wide open spaces and atmosphere of festivals and I've had more than my share of life changing musical experiences in concert halls and in front of vast stadium stages. But when it comes down to it theres nothing like the ambience of somewhere holding no more than a few hundred, or even just dozens. Whether it's a cafe with a stage or a house concert in somebody's home, musicians jamming in a West African compuond or anEnglish pub, a hushed and intimate arts centre theatre or a powerhouse city club, there's a small place for most of the musics I like. Theyre where you feel at one with the performers, as they do with their audiences. I know this because, for my sins, I've not only been audience but performer and organiser too. They are where musicians in many genres learn their trade and often chose to stay playing because they like it like that. They're more human, less pressured, allow evolution and experimentation. The advances weve seen in stage technology in the past few decades have made them better than ever. The UK's smoking ban has also made a really noticeable difference in widening the range of people enjoying going out to live music in small venues again."

This was in the May fRoots which had its big main feature by Colin Irwin on new, youngish artists performing English folk music, only two of who have records out so far I believe. So the original complainers posting saying "There are quite a few young performers trying to break into the scene at the moment- how nice it would be if they could be more publicised; it might even draw a new generation of listeners into the scene" was a really ill-informed comment to make. She did say she only glanced at a copy in her newsagents but It would have helped if she'd bothered to look properly at what she was critcising before inserting foot in mouth!

She keeps good company here though. Any magazine that has Captain Bonkers and Mad Lizzie foaming at the mouth MUST be doing something right!

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:43 PM

As I remember it Dick, your "Ian accused me of being a drug taker" story is because you made a completely impenetrable post to the fRoots board. It had erratic punctuation and sometimes not even spaces between the words, just like your post above in fact.

Ian, quite understandably, used the phrase "what are you on?". It's a figure of speech..

That explains a lot. I can well imagine other forums might not be as tolerant of Dick's weird posting style as we are.

Dick, there are several ways of distinguishing what you're quoting from what you've written yourself. What I usually do here is to enclose the quoted text in HTML emphasis tags: <em> at the start of the quote and </em> at the end of it. (Always use the preview option to check that this worked right). That's what I did above.

Another way is to use the Usenet convention of a special character at the start of each line to indicate qhat's quoted, but that has the drawback of requiring a fixed line length, and you have to insert the line breaks yourself. It looks like this:

: this is the
: quoted bit

Haven't you noticed how much easier it is to make sense of most postings here, in comparison with yours (or Jim Carroll's, he creates the same godawful mess as you)?

I've done four previews of this message before finalizing it. It really does help.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 May 09 - 05:53 PM

"She keeps good company here though. Any magazine that has Captain Bonkers and Mad Lizzie foaming at the mouth MUST be doing something right!"

Actually, the only reason fRoots has me foaming at the mouth these days is due to giggles, giggles that Ian has finally come to realise that I was right all along! ;0)

Teehee!

Oh dearie...dearie...all that fuss and bother with him on the BBC board and there he was ALL along, a secret Seth and Show of Hands fan after all....

The little divil...

Sniggery Smiley.. :0)

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:10 PM

Folknacious wrote
"I havent the patience to type it all out"
Ah! The joys of having a scanner with text reading software. It means that in seven seconds I managed to produce the following - the editor's piece in full.
Now, before it gets torn to pieces - as it inevitably will on Mudcat - try the following:-
* Read it carefully and try not to misinterpret the intentions of the writer. He is not, for example, saying that all folkies are hopeless bearded twits.
* Consider whether there may be more than a grain of truth in what he is trying to say. It is not anti-folk club; I run a folk club and I don't find it offensive. It is trying to say that there could be other ways, other styles, other venues for presenting the music that we love.
* If your only experience of live music is the folk club or singaround, try going to folk gigs in other venues and find how liberating it can be.

Now, an editorial by Ian Anderson is bound to stir up some bile on Mudcat so let's have it in green!

I come in praise of music in small rooms. I love the wide open spaces and atmosphere of festivals and I've had more than my share of life-changing musical experiences in concert halls and in front of vast stadium stages. But when it comes down to it there's nothing like the ambience of somewhere holding no more than a few hundred, or even just dozens. Whether it's a cafe with a stage or a house concert in somebody's home, musicians jamming in a West African compound or an English pub, a hushed and intimate arts centre theatre or a powerhouse city club, there's a small place for most of the musics I like. They're where you feel at one with the performers, as they do with their audiences. I know this because, for my sins, I've not only been audience but performer and organiser too.
They're where musicians in many genres learn their trade and often choose to stay playing because they like it like that. They're more human, less pressured, allow evolution and experimentation. The advances we've seen in stage technology in the past few decades have made them better than ever. The UK's smoking ban has also made a really noticeable difference in widening the range of people enjoying going out to live music in small venues again.
One kind of small room music runs on the standard UK folk club model that gelled somewhere in the early 1960s. I spent a large part of my formative years in them, when the music was evolving fast and the performers, audiences and organisers were mostly of the same (studentish) age and on the same voyage of discovery. They tended to be in the same rooms used on other nights by equally buzzing, atmospheric blues or jazz clubs which ran in different ways. I can't remember when I first saw critical pieces appearing suggesting that the standard UK folk club model was getting a bit moth-eaten, predictable, its denizens somewhat long in the tooth and cliquishly offputting, but it must have been as far back as the 1970s! They're still being written today and when they appear, people still get hot under the collar because they see the standard UK folk club model as The Only True Way, and the divine right of floor singers the only possible method for a performer to learn the ropes.
The latter is simply wrong. UK folk clubs are good places for learning to be a performer in UK folk clubs, which have their own unique expectations and traditions, sometimes related to and including folk music. It's a community that -with obvious exceptions - sometimes seems to outsiders to be Folkistan run by its own bearded fundamentalists. Other musics, from here and all over the world, clearly have a myriad other equally good ways for new performers to learn their skills or we wouldn't be in such a golden age as we are now. I hope this issue's main feature gives positive evidence that this is the case with English folk music too.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:12 PM

I think you'll find if you look in the Froots indexes that Seth Lakeman and Show Of Hands exploits were being written about in the mag long before you were a twinkle in your therapist's eye. Also, I don't think you'll find that Ian Anderson writes all of Froots anyway (a popular misconception that one, if this thread is anything to go by).

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:16 PM

Vic Smith wrote: seven seconds

A Yossou Ndour song! See, its all a conspiracy to foist more African music on us and put down our own noble British traditions blah blah blah wimble wobble wooble (continued on page 75)

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:17 PM

I've known Ian Anderson for a very, very long time. Not well, it's just that I reviewed some Village Things in about 1970 and have seen him perform at odd times over the years. Indeed, after a particularly long break of not clapping eyes on him, I failed to recognise him in the middle of Sainsburys one morning when he scared me half to death at the checkout. And he hasn't forgiven me for shouting 'I'm behind you' on the darkened steps of the Union Chapel. Nevertheless, we get on with each other and agree reasonably well, except when we don't.

None of this, of course, detracts from (or even adds to) the debt which everyone with the mildest interest in trad & roots music owes him. or ought to. I've kept out of this extremely stupid thread so far because someone once mistook me for a fRoots staffer (as if!) and he didn't like that one bit. The fact that he has achieved 30 years of continuous publication without any assistance from me is testimony to his dedication and commitment.

Yes, I have a subscription. No, I don't endorse every word written in the mag. Nor does he as Editor, necessarily. However, it's usually well-written and certainly well-produced and there to provoke discussion and encourage further exploration of the musics covered. Tins, and words written thereon, spring to mind.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:31 PM

"I think you'll find if you look in the Froots indexes that Seth Lakeman and Show Of Hands exploits were being written about in the mag long before you were a twinkle in your therapist's eye."

Oh poo...go check your facts, mate. I could tell you a whole lotta 'stuff' about your words there, that would make your hair stand on end.

However, I really can't be bothered any more, as believe you me, there's absolutely no need. The truth is plain, for all to see, regardless of fRoots & Co.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:33 PM

:Ian, quite understandably, used the phrase "what are you on?". It's a figure of speech:[QUOTE]
that is not just what he said.he said much more.
he made references to hallucinating,amongst other things
In fact,I was not hallucinating,as Greg Stephens,who also saw the review can confirm.
Jack,you are completely unaware of what actually happened,it had nothing to do with posting style,but more to do with Froots the IRISH MUSIC REVIEW and a reviewer with an irish pseudonym,who was also a reviewer for Froots,who did a hatchet review on Ann Conroy Burke.

the Froots editor got very angry with me for daring to send in a post criticising a review ,accused me publicly of hallucinating,and other similiar remarks.
the editor of Froots is well able to explain what happened,but has not even had the decency to apologise.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 May 09 - 06:43 PM

Another bilious and bloody-minded thread on the forum - whoopee.

I can't add much to what Vic and Diana have said here, except to say that I and my friends knocked around with IA, with many of the London and BBC blues & folk scene performers, and with some of IAs Weston-super-Mare buddies from '68 to'75-ish (when I left London for Sussex). And a nicer set of people you couldn't wish to meet - great fun and good performers. We booked Ian in at Clanfolk, for example, and he gave us an excellent night's entertainment.

Since those days, he's run other clubs, started Village Thing records, created mags including a national one like fRoots (which I rarely read, so can't really comment on) and been a mover and shaker in the music world. Just what does it take to get some respect in the folk community?

Cap'n Dick - slagging off a fellow musician and performer's musical abilities on a public forum like this one is, in my old-fashioned view, surely not on. You keep repeating stories of accusations made, slurs resented and apologies to come forth - but most of us are probably not interested any more.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:45 PM

the Froots editor got very angry with me for daring to send in a post criticising a review ,accused me publicly of hallucinating,and other similiar remarks.

Were you not accused of hallucinating because you had claimed a review appeared in Froots when in fact it had been on some obscure web site and not in Froots, and you kept insisting it had even when presented with the evidence? It has already been pointed out above that you were only asked "what are you on?" after a posting full of impenetrable gobbledegook. Since then you have repeatedly made malicious remarks on here that Ian Anderson had accused you of being on drugs! If apologies are needed, surely they are from you?

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:36 PM

Thanks, Folknacious, for your typing efforts and thanks, Vic, for your seven seconds of modern technology. I think it is useful for everybody to know what the fuss is about.

He is not, for example, saying that all folkies are hopeless bearded twits.

I resemble that remark!

Ian's editorial does, indeed, include a lot of sense but it does also include some rather strange remarks. I particularly like - "there's nothing like the ambience of somewhere holding no more than a few hundred". Cosy!

"people still get hot under the collar because they see the standard UK folk club model as The Only True Way, and the divine right of floor singers the only possible method for a performer to learn the ropes." causes a certain amount of concern as well. Who says that?

Coming from the club that gave Jon Boden, The Askew sisters and Lisa Knapp their first folk club bookings, I'd be interested to find out what the other routes to success are. Could you lend me your copy of the magazine, Vic?

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:34 AM

From Will:

"Just what does it take to get some respect in the folk community?

Cap'n Dick - slagging off a fellow musician and performer's musical abilities on a public forum like this one is, in my old-fashioned view, surely not on."


I'll tell you what it takes, Will. It takes an editor who does NOT slag incredibly talented musicians off, in his mag, or on his messageboard, or the BBC board, simply because he doesn't like their music.

It's about respect.

It's ALWAYS been about respect.

Sadly, fRoots has taken much delight in NOT respecting those who they deem not suitable to get in under their 'radar'

In my opinion, Ian has lost a great deal of respect over his behaviour and even to this day I think that still stands.

To be honest, if you want to live your life knocking talented artists, making fun of them, getting people to write spiteful reviews etc..well, then don't go crying if folk start complaining.

The thing is, again, as I see it, is that Ian and the fRoots team don't really give a shite about the opinion of you, or me, or anyone else. They simply 'do what they do'..and that's the way it is. Once you get your head around that, you can decide whether to stand with him, or walk away.

I walked.

However, it does my heart good to see he's finally realised just how damn talented Show of Hands and Seth are, along with appreciating, at long last, what a huge influence they're having in bringing thousands into the world of folk music and how much they're helping the younger generation of folk musicians to get out there too.

In the end, even fRoots can't hold out against a sweeping tide of tens of thousands of people who recognise talent that shines out.

So, well done fRoots for at least having the grace to flow with that tide, for once.

Let's hope this marks a whole new beginning.

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:40 AM

Wrong again.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Kev Boyd
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:49 AM

Funny, isn't it, that the original poster Faye claims not to read the magazine, but then proceeds to write a post based entirely on her misconception of its contents. Not surprisingly, those subsequent posters who actually do read the magazine on a regular basis have a rather different view of its contents.

Mitch2 - who also doesn't read the magazine but took a "quick glance" at the website - thinks s/he's spotted a theme over the last dew issues. This involves lots of African music and the sense that the editor has a "deep-rooted dislike of English folk clubs". Well, I don't think Mitch2 quite glanced at the website closely enough as a more detailed analysis of the last two issues reveals that out of 22 major articles, only ONE featured an African artist in any detail.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:04 AM

Having right in front of me a resource which madlizziecornish has not: a complete archive from 1979 of fR, Folk Roots and Southern Rag, I and not she am aware that there are references to her tiny band of "fave" artists (insofar as their outputs correspond to the mag's remit) going back to decades before they got beneath her radar.

The recent piece on Show Of Hands was a personal assessment by Colin Irwin of how his rating of Beer & Knightley's work has undergone a recent change. It's certainly not one I would agree with myself; my position remains that the one thing I dislike about SoH is certainly not those two nice chaps themselves but their output as a band. Many agree, while some who came across them the week before last and regard them as some sort of pop idols do not.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:14 AM

Er...I don't have 'radar'....that's the whole point...and yours and Ian's 'campaign' against certain artists on the BBC board, which reached into the world of folk magazines itself, where other editors stood UP for certain artists and decried what you two were up to, spoke volumes.

Colin Irwin has also finally seen 'the light'..as have fRoots who decided to print the article.

Ian has seen the light over Seth too..and I'm not going down the road of 'commercialism' again, thinking that even fRoots use Seth to sell their magazine, as I'm sure that no longer applies and Ian's choice to put Seth on the cover so many times is now based on his appreciation of Seth, as an artist.

Colin wrote an ENTIRE chapter about Seth, of course, in his book 'In Search of Albion' (great book by the way)....so it was only a matter of time before he caught up with the rest of us.

Whilst I fully understand how irritating this must all be for you, it would be wonderful if you could just accept it with grace, at long last...

Thank oo..

:0)

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:25 AM

"It's certainly not one I would agree with myself; my position remains that the one thing I dislike about SoH is certainly not those two nice chaps themselves but their output as a band."

And you are perfectly entitled to that opinion. We all like different things in life.

What is not on is for some people to go out of their way to malign any artist/s for years and years and years, to the point where they even try to damage the careers of those artists when it comes to Awards etc.

The whole damn fiasco that surrounded certain artists was unbelievable, totally unbelievable and very wrong. And to be honest, I'd have *such* respect for those who took part in it, if they had the guts to stand up and say it was wrong, and that they were sorry.

"Many agree, while some who came across them the week before last and regard them as some sort of pop idols do not."

There are a *few* people in the traditional part of the folk world who may agree. Those are the ones who prefer to drink in the bar named 'Us'.

Those who love the music of Show of Hands drink in a very inclusive bar, labelled 'We', where ALL are welcome, where ALL songs are sung, where all accents are acceptable and where 'the music' reaches out, far beyond the radar, to a world of thousands who are finding their way to folk, acoustic and traditional music, because of Show of Hands and all the other artists who now surround them.


The Battle of Show of Hands has finally been won, Diane, by Steve and Phil, themselves.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:40 AM

Peddling myths again, I see.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:50 AM

I've no interest in any "battle of Show of Hands", and I'm not particularly bothered in knowing more.

My point - perhaps not made clearly enough - was that the thread topic was about the nature of fRoots magazine. There's nothing wrong with being critical about a publication's idealogoy, look, feel, contents, etc. To make pejorative remarks about the editor's musical ability because of a personal grudge that some of us know nothing whatsoever about, and care even less about, and which is repeated ad nauseam every tme that editor's name appears in Mudcat, is not an argument.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:35 AM

The battle of convincing me say Roots is a folk song might never be won, at least not by arguing in a forum.

The battle of the us and them bars probably does not need winning. OK, we may at times tuck ourselves away in different corners but I'd find the idea that say Mr Beer, Diane and I could not find a way of having a pint and perhaps even a song or tune together difficult to imagine. There must be something there we all enjoy. Can we all run to a 3 Round 3?

I think, Lizzie, you get in the way of finding where the common ground exists, rather than encouraging it.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:42 AM

Lizzie, um... "we" and "us" are both expressions of the second person plural. As is "our".

As in "we would like you to join with us in listening to our favourite music." F'rinstance.

Good sense from the redoubtable Monsieur Le Mouche as ever.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:47 AM

Oh do me a favour, Jon!

Stop being so hypocritical. Go back and read some of your posts about me on the BBC board, many of them...and then think on this....that despite so many negative comments about me, I have never responded to you in kind.

I have ALWAYS had an open mind to music, you know that. I have also had an open mind to how and what people write and to freedom of expression, never once telling anyone the things that you have told me over the years..

Incredibly talented musicians should NOT have to endure what some had to, from Diane and Ian. End of story. And I have *no* respect for those who cannot see that.

Will, you should find out more. Just because someone is an old friend of yours does not excuse appalling behaviour.

And now, I'm outta this thread. I've said what needs to be said, from my point of view.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:49 AM

Oh, *u*k the grammar, SC.

'We' as in you and me, all of us.....non-excluding, inclusive, without barriers, walls or divisions!

THAT is Show of Hands way...

Got it?

Good...

And by the way, I do Elizabethan English, the 1st, not the 2nd, plural or singular, upside down, or back to front..

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:53 AM

I realised the other day that the only magazines I buy these days are non-music (Private Eye & Fortean Times) though I do check Mojo, Wire, fRoots, Living Tradition, The Storyteller, Home Organist, The Improvising Crwth Player, Gramophone, etc. during our protracted browsing sessions in Borders. I suppose I get most of my music needs on-line & I was always wary of Folk Roots inclinations towards music as a commodity anyway, much less an exotic commodity, which tended to trivialise things even back in 1990. My letter in the Jan/Feb 1991 number, for example, was an irked response at them featuring Mauritanian Griots on the cover and only giving them a single page article inside. Maybe things are better now? Let's hope so. Still, I did get to mention Sun Ra and Jim Eldon in the same sentence, although they wrongly detected the influence of James Joyce (as oppose to a far more evident Mark E. Smith) in my writing style. I note that a letter to WIRE at the same time were a whole lot more placid, and deserving of a bottle of Jim Beam!

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: GUEST,Squiggle
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:57 AM

Lizzie, Show of hands were first featured in fRoots in issue 151, which by my calculation was 14 years ago.

Seth first appeared with the Lakeman brothers in issue 134, then again with Equation issue 141. That was 16 years ago.

Just throwing some facts in... But I'm sure that won't deter you.

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Smedley
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:02 AM

Would it be considered unduly inflammatory to suggest that the term 'incredibly talented musicians' is a smidgeon on the subjective side, and therefore open to disagreement and debate ?

Subject: RE: fRoots magazine and folk clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 May 09 - 05:03 AM

Ian Anderson used to post to uk.music.folk, and ticked quite a few people off when explaining (or not) why fRoots didn't cover the UK folk club and session scene. I wasn't particularly bothered about that, since there are always other ways to find out about what's going on here and I agreed with Ian that detailed coverage would be a waste of trees.

I was more bothered about the magazine not covering similar scenes elsewhere. I've travelled a lot round Europe over the last 25 years, and my knowledge of the languages and musical cultures of the places I've been to has been quite variable. I can read French quite well but don't have any idea how to locate something like a traditional music session in France. I hardly know any Hungarian but can do much better there. I know even less Croatian or Slovak but got lucky a few times in Croatia, Bosnia and Slovakia; I'll be in Montenegro this autumn but have no reason to suppose I'll get lucky again.

So the main thing I want in a magazine that purports to cover the traditional music of the world is where to find the stuff in the wild. fRoots doesn't attempt to provide that information, or didn't last time I looked at it. I once asked Ian if he'd like an article about the music in a place I was thinking of going to that isn't much written about; he replied that I'd have to suggest recordings to go along with it. Since the locals have been more preoccupied in the last few years with getting their electricity working again, fixing broken windows and covering shellholes with tarpaulin than with running recording studios, that wasn't an option. It seemed that fRoots's policy was that genres that weren't represented on CD would never be covered.

I wasn't expecting a detailed guide to the best bars for singalongs in Reunion or a directory of fluteplaying shepherds in Kurdistan, but there are ways to present that sort of information without coming across as a complete anorak.