trouble with patrick costello's c chord

Subject: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: liverlipsyyz
Date: 16 May 09 - 10:40 PM

hi! first time on mudcat but i love it. i have a question for anyone familiar with patrick costello's how and tao of folk guitar. he talks about making a c chord using one finger on both the 6th and 5th strings. he says you are not playing with the pad of the finger, just aim for the space between the two strings enough so that they hit the fret. well, i've tried like crazy and there's no way i can do it! my finger just goes right between the 6th and 5th string and neither string presses against the fret wire. are my fingers too skinny? are my strings to wide apart? does anyone else play a c like this? i really want to do it this way because i can play the 6th and 5th as a bass line, and i can use my pinky to move around the 1st string. he also talks about making an f chord using one finger to hold down the 5th and 4th string. any help would be appreciated, sorry for the long post.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 09 - 11:58 PM

I have tried the C as well and it works on some guitars for me but not on others. I don't use it, I can't do it reliably enough.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: GUEST,Bryan
Date: 17 May 09 - 12:20 AM

To messy rap around thumb or use pinky

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Anglo
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:59 AM

If you can wrap the thumb around on a C chord you have an amazing hand. Yes, I know it can be done, but it's not easy, or comfortable, and it gets so contorted that it hardly frees your pinky at all. I agree with you, liverlipsyyz, unless you have hands that fall into it, forget about covering two strings with one finger like that. Use your pinky for the 5th string or alternate your ring finger, depending on what you''re trying to do. Who is Patrick Costello anyway?

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: GUEST,Bryan
Date: 17 May 09 - 03:11 AM

I think he's an Irish comedian with a very fat finger

Dble jointed thumb will do it every time, or consider surgery

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 May 09 - 03:55 AM

uhh well, I can do this without any problem, I have to say, but I do have big hands ...

If you are fingerpicking, you never need to actually have both the 5th and 6th depressed simultaneously, you just alternate the ring finger, as Anglo says above.

Patrick Costello is a self-appointed guitar guru.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Nick
Date: 17 May 09 - 06:50 AM

I reckon there's pluses and minuses with each way of doing it. I tried four different ways and will stick with alternating the ring finger or wrapping my thumb (and I have really small fingers so it can be done)

1 Fretting the two simultaneously is ok but I'm not sure I could change to it at speed and be sure of doing it consistently and without loads of buzzes.
2 Alternating seems the easiest - especially if you are doing bass runs too.
3 Fretting the 6th string with the ring finger and then flattening the joint across the 5th too is possible but tends to mute the 4th when I do it
4 Thumb is ok but does tend to contort my hand so I catch the 1st string first fret with my first finger as my hand swivels.

If that's not clear there's a short video here of my quick attempt. It's about 1.35mb but shows each example above and the problems I encountered.

If you can't play .flv files (work with realplayer) download VLC media player http://www.videolan.org/ which plays most things and is open source and little.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 09 - 06:59 AM

I prefer to use my third finger,and move it from one string to the other if necessary,this enables the ring finger to be available,to play c 9,or be available to help finger pick melody,principally for the d note on the second string,or the g note on the first string.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Nick
Date: 17 May 09 - 07:18 AM

Dick

Do you leave out the 4th string then and not play the E of the chord and just alternate the 5th,6th strings? I'd finger pick a melody with my little finger for the D and the G rather than using my ring finger - do you use the little finger for something else (balancing a cup of tea on or something? :)!!) or just for extra notes?

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: liverlipsyyz
Date: 17 May 09 - 10:08 AM

patrick costello is a folk musician that has tons of free videos and some free instruction and song books. just do a search on him at archive.org to find all his stuff for free.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 09 - 01:11 PM

I generally play a c chord,alternating basses fifth and fourth strings,with,my second finger on the fourth string,my third finger of the left hand on 5 string,if i want the six string I fret it at third fret,and move my finger off the fifth string.my pinky is then free to play the melody note[d]on the second string,[g]on the third fret first string.
I am not saying there is a right way,there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems,shape and size of hand must come into consideration too

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: HarleySpirit
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:21 PM

... or try some alternate tunings found here for easier fingerings with some very interesting results.

Harley

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: mandotim
Date: 17 May 09 - 03:11 PM

I fret the 6th string 3rd fret with my ring finger, and drop the little finger in behind it to fret the 5th string 3rd fret. This is nice for changes to F, as you just sort of roll your index finger over to form the double stop on the 1st and 2nd strings, 1st fret, and let the other fingers follow without changing the shape they make.
For info, Patrick Costello is best known as a clawhammer banjo tutor.
Tim

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 17 May 09 - 07:22 PM

Learn them all, or all you can, and use whichever one enables the smoothest transition from where you've been to where you're going.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Nick
Date: 17 May 09 - 08:10 PM

Fuck me Harley's back again

Most limited chord chards in the world and wanting your money.

If you ever want a lesson in how NOT to do DADGAD go see the guys place and pay your your $2 or don't

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Nick
Date: 17 May 09 - 08:26 PM

Here's a cool trick for you Harley Fans...

Left click on the chart

When the chart comes up and his copyright shit comes up (how can you copyright chords and fingerings - right!) left click on the OK button BUT BEFORE LETTING YOUR LEFT BUTTON UP right click - and you have all the options.

Amateurs - you have to love them don't you :)

$2 to have a chart which shows you how to make the least out of a tuning has to be the worst stuff in the world.

Why try to make open D, G DADGAD etc sound like a normal tuned guitar? Don't understand.

Sorry Harley - and PM or engage me here - but you really are peddling nothing for too much.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Patrick-Costello
Date: 17 May 09 - 09:34 PM

To Nick:
It's a combination of two things: changing the angle of your hand so that your fingers come straight down on the fretboard and fretting between the fifth and sixth strings.

Things are kind of crazy around here because I have surgery this week but I will try to knock out a short video sometime tomorrow. Keep an eye on Tangier Sound.

-Patrick

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: HarleySpirit
Date: 17 May 09 - 09:39 PM

Hi Nick,
I didn't know I had a "Harley's Fans" following... what a pleasant surprise! "Amateurs - you have to love them don't you"...never claimed I was anything more... but I did make my own useful chord charts... if you can find better, by all means use them.

My Link: Harley's Alternate Chord Charts - in Keys

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: HarleySpirit
Date: 17 May 09 - 10:30 PM

Hi Patrick,

Good luck with your surgery this week... we wish you the best!

Harley

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Mallee
Date: 18 May 09 - 12:26 AM

Shit I was only joking about surgery for double jointed thumbs

Hope all goes well

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: GUEST,Patrick Costello
Date: 19 May 09 - 01:27 PM

The video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGUAVyxJKGM

-Patrick

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 09 - 02:28 PM

Long before Mr. Costello, I stumbled across instructions to fret those two strings with one finger. I can't do it ~ my fingers are simply too skinny.

" do you use the little finger for something else (balancing a cup of tea on or something? :)!!) or just for extra notes?"

For many songs, and for parts of many other songs, when playing the C major chord, I use the pinky to play treble notes on the G, B, and high E strings, mostly at the third fret. In such cases, I'll play either the low E or the A with the ring finger, usually alternating.

Other times, when it's OK to leave the high E open on the C chord, I'll fret the bottom two strings with ring and pinky fingers.

After dealing with this dilemma for many years, I gradually became able to switch back and forth between pinky-at-the high-E and pinky-on-the-low-A pretty quickly, even within the same song.

I can't imagine being able to fret the low E at the third fret with my thumb and still make a C chord with the rest of may hand. If you can do it, more power to you.

Especially since having begun to deal with arthiritis, I've come to accept that there are stetches that some guitarists can make that are simply beyond my capabilities. The idea is simply to work around your limitations. Musicianship is not just a set of tasks to be mastered; it's finding a way to make the most beautful and graceful sounds that you can. Each of us has our limitations, of course, but it's also true that each of us has unique talents and the ability to create our own contributions. Find a way to play as many of the notes you hear in your head as possible, and to smooth over whatever you might have to omit. Play your own way.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 09 - 03:37 PM

:Play your own way.:
the most sensible bit of advice on this thread

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Mallee
Date: 19 May 09 - 09:19 PM

As Per Django !!
I often wonder why technologist cant make a jointed flat( for the pedants fret shaped) Barre finger splint. No not a capo, a prosthetic.

Wooden it be luverly
I digress


MUDdled CATogrie
What do i win

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 20 May 09 - 01:42 PM

I don't like the muddy sound of the 6th string/3rd fret at the same time the root C on 5th/3rd is sounding. Most of the time I don't even like to play the 4th string E as part of a C chord, unless the melody note gets way down there. I prefer voicings that have a clear bass and the harmony notes up in their own sonic space.
That said I do use my ring finger to alternate C and G bass when appropriate, and like Poppa said, I keep the pinky free to help out with melody notes above.
Along the same line, unlike many published chord charts, I play G major with the ring finger on 6th/3rd, skip (damp) the 5th, and pinky on the 1st/3rd for the high G. I find that makes a quick clean transition to C and back, and leaves the index and middle fingers available to play melody notes on the 1st and 2nd frets.
Cheers
-Glenn

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:20 PM

I long ago started making the G chord as Glenn describes above, but I don't find it necessary to skip/damp the 5th string; I play it at the second fret with my middle finger.

Now, I am a fingerpicker, so I'm usually playing no more than 2 or 3 strings at a time, anyway ~ except, of course, when I want the full chord, in which case I'll "strum" with the thumbpick.

My arthritis is at its worst in my left pinky finger ~ since I can't bend it nearly as much as I used to, my middle and ring fingers reach for those two lowest G-chord strings at more of an angle than is ideal, making it a little more difficult (but not impossible) to avoid muting the open D string.

To compensate in some situations, on some songs, I've begun playing the G chord yet another way, new to me: wraparound thumb to fret the bottom E string at the 3d fret and to mute the A string with the tip of the thumb, plus the middle finger to fret the top E, sometimes along with the B string as well, also at the third fret. This is not particularly useful when switching quickly between G and C and playing melody/treble notes with the pinky, but fits very nicely into some other arrangements, especially when transitioning from first position up the fingerboard and/or back again. And of course, playing that "D" note on the B string as part of the G chord, instead of leaving the B string open, is sometimes a preferable sound.

PS: Incidentally, I don't think of the 2-strings-with-one-finger version of the C chord as Patrick Costello's ~ I think of it as Rev. Gary Davis's. The Rev had a pretty huge pair of hands, and could hold down those strings with a single finger much more readily than most of us could. He served as mentor/teacher to a number of then-young New York folkies who passed on their lessons (including how to make that chord) to the masses via songbooks w/ tablature and, later, with tapes and videos.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:38 PM

Sounds all very complicated but interesting..
Hiya Nick

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:04 AM

"Along the same line, unlike many published chord charts, I play G major with the ring finger on 6th/3rd, skip (damp) the 5th, and pinky on the 1st/3rd for the high G. I find that makes a quick clean transition to C and back, and leaves the index and middle fingers available to play melody notes on the 1st and 2nd frets."

That's how I learned to play it, and I've never understood why people would want to finger it with the first finger on the 5th string, middle on the 6th and ring finger on the 1st. OK, it does take some practice to strengthen and get control over the pinky, but a beginner is struggling to control all the fingers at first, so that makes no difference, and it improves your playing in the long run. The alternative way of playing it seems no less contorted (to get the ring finger onto the 1st string), and requires a major movement of the hand out of position, which must hamper the change to other chords, especially C.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 21 May 09 - 10:13 AM

PoppaGator, you might want to comment in sharyn's Guitar Practice Flaw To Fun Ratio thread. She has issues with a hand injury and I bet you could encourage her plus teach her a thing or three.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 May 09 - 02:39 PM

Glenn:

I've been reading that "flaw to fun" thread, and the topic is so similar to this one that I thought I had posted to it, but had only posted here.

For anyone who cares, and who has been paying really close attention, I erred yesterday in saying that I've begun making a G major chord with tumb and middle finger. I was writing at me workplace desk without a guitar at hand. After goinmg home last night and actually putting my hands on my actual guitar, I realized that I've been using thumb and index finger for that chord.

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:36 PM

surely most guitar players use all of these G chord fingerings, depending on what the next chord or run is going to be ?

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 May 09 - 12:52 PM

Good point, Murray.

One blatant exception: the one fingering I never* use for G is the one most of us were taught first, with the ring finger on the high E string and the index and middle reaching across to the the low strings. It puts your hand in a completely different position from almost any other chord you'd play before or after a G. (The conventional first-position B7 puts the hand at a similar angle, but those two chords are rarely played one after the other.)

The thumb-on-low-E with index-on-high-E (or on-high-E-and-B) is really just part of the same fingering used for a full third position non-barre-chord G (355433), but I didn't think of it that way when I first resorted to using it.

I should also note that blues players who play in the key of G often anchor their wraparound thumb there on the low E, third fret, while playing all sorts of notes on the top 2 or 3 strings.

*Well, almost never...

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Patrick-Costello
Date: 23 May 09 - 04:31 AM

I'm a little puzzled by where this thread is going. PoppaGator is typing a lot of stuff, but it comes across like a bag lady screaming at traffic.

I have a reason for teaching some chord forms - including the C chord in question - in a specific way, but I always am willing to make changes to help an individual work around a handicap. For example, at Camp Adventure this year I am going to have to improvise workarounds for each of my students. That's what a teacher is supposed to do.

What's your point, PoppaGator? What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

-Patrick

Subject: RE: trouble with patrick costello's c chord
From: Mallee
Date: 23 May 09 - 04:37 AM

Watch Christie More play a G chord