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Irish meanings

GUEST,John 19 May 09 - 01:43 AM
Noreen 19 May 09 - 02:17 AM
Bryn Pugh 19 May 09 - 04:22 AM
MARINER 19 May 09 - 04:39 AM
bubblyrat 19 May 09 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,mayomick 19 May 09 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 19 May 09 - 11:48 AM
MartinRyan 19 May 09 - 11:54 AM
MartinRyan 19 May 09 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Noreen 19 May 09 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,John 19 May 09 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border 19 May 09 - 04:56 PM
MartinRyan 19 May 09 - 05:03 PM
MartinRyan 19 May 09 - 05:05 PM
MartinRyan 19 May 09 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border 19 May 09 - 05:12 PM
MARINER 19 May 09 - 05:21 PM
MartinRyan 19 May 09 - 06:57 PM
MARINER 20 May 09 - 06:49 AM
GUEST,mayomick 20 May 09 - 07:19 AM
Noreen 20 May 09 - 07:33 AM
MARINER 20 May 09 - 09:12 AM
MartinRyan 20 May 09 - 03:41 PM
MARINER 21 May 09 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,michael anyone know kelly the boy from killa 26 Nov 16 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,Jackeen 17 Mar 18 - 06:10 PM
Felipa 18 Mar 18 - 08:39 AM
Thompson 21 Mar 18 - 05:41 AM
michaelr 21 Mar 18 - 07:05 PM
Felipa 23 Mar 18 - 09:39 AM
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Subject: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,John
Date: 19 May 09 - 01:43 AM

In 'Kelly The Boy From Killane" what was/is a "bargy man" and a "shelmalier"?


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Subject: LYR ADD: KELLY THE BOY FROM KILLANNE
From: Noreen
Date: 19 May 09 - 02:17 AM

Bargy, Forth and Shelmalier are areas of County Wexford, John.

Since there doesn't appear to be a great deal about the song here on Mudcat, I will copy and paste the following post from Frank Harte at IRTRAD-L Archives:

JOHN KELLY came from the town of Killanne in County Wexford, and by all accounts his physical appearance was impressive, seven feet was his height with some inches to spare.....well ! ..give or take an
inch ?. He fought under the command of Bagnal Harvey who was one of the Protestant leaders of the rebellion in Wexford and about whom ballads have also been written.

John Kelly led the men from the areas of Bargy, Forth, Shelmalier and
the Barony of Bantry. He was badly wounded in the attack on the Three
Bullet Gate at the town of New Ross when Bagnal Harvey captured the
town, rested, and then lost it again, several hundred croppies being lost in the battle.

John Kelly was later captured in his sister's house where he was recovering from his wounds, he was later tried by court-martial and was hanged following the entry into Wexford of General Lake. It is said that a Yeoman sergeant who was a neighbour and whose life he had saved some days before gave evidence against him. He was hanged on Wexford bridge, his trunk being thrown into the water and his head trailed and kicked along the streets before being spiked over the courthouse to rot...a delightful custom which they had in those days.

His friends eventually recovered the head and brought it to Killanne where a monument to his memory was later erected.

The following are mentioned in the song below:

Bargy, Forth and Shelmalier are areas in County Wexford.
The Barrow and Slaney are the Rivers that run through the county.
The people of Shelmalier used to shoot wild fowl on the North sloblands with a long barrelled punt gun which they used with effect during the rising.


The song was written by Patrick Joseph McCall, 1861-1919. He was born in Dublin and owned a public house in Patrick's Street, as did his father before him. He was generally interested in songs and wrote a very interesting paper on the various ballad singers who sang around the streets of Dublin at that time.

He wrote many patriotic ballads a number of which have entered into the tradition and become an integral part of the ballad singers repertoire.
One of his most popular ballads is 'Boolavogue' written in praise of another of the leaders Father John Murphy, it is still widely sung as indeed is Kelly the Boy from Killanne....


all the best............Frank Harte.




KELLY THE BOY FROM KILLANNE.

What's the news what's the news? O my bold Shelmalier,
With your long-barrelled gun of the sea?
Say what wind from the sun blows his messenger here
With a hymn of the dawn for the free?
"Goodly news do I bring Youth of Forth;
Goodly news shall you hear, Bargy man!
For the boys march at morn from the South to the North,
Led by Kelly, the Boy from Killanne!"

"Tell me who is that giant with the gold curling hair
He that rides at the head of your band?
Seven feet is his height, with some inches to spare
And he looks like a king in command!"
"Ah my lads that's the pride of the bold Shelmaliers,
`Mong our greatest of heroes, a Man!
Fling your beavers aloft and give three ringing cheers
For John Kelly, the boy from Killanne!

Enniscorthy's in flames, and old Wexford is won,
And the Barrow tomorrow we cross,
On the hill o'er the town we have planted a gun
That will batter the gateway of Ross!
All the Forth men and Bargy men march o'er the heath,
With brave Harvey to lead on the van;
But the foremost of all in the grim gap of death
Will be Kelly, the Boy from Killanne.

But the gold sun of freedom grew darkened at Ross,
And it set by the Slaney's red waves;
And poor Wexford stript naked hung high on a cross,
And her heart pierced by traitors and slaves !
Glory O ! Glory O ! to her brave men who died
For the cause of long-down-trodden man !
Glory O ! to Mount Leinster's own darling and pride --
Dauntless Kelly, the Boy from Killanne.


P.J.McCall.


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 19 May 09 - 04:22 AM

I learned this from the singing of my aunt and godmother.

The folk process at work !

I heard "Shilmalier" ;

4th line 2nd verse "he rides like a king in command" ;

5th Line "Ah, my boys" ;

7th line "Throw your beavers";

3rd verse 2nd line "tomorrow the Barrow" ;

6th Line "in the van" ;

4th verse 1st line "grew dark over Ross" ;

3rd and 4th lines "Bold Wexford stripped naked, hung high on the Cross, Her heart pieced by traitors and knaves" ;

6th line "In the cause, etc".


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MARINER
Date: 19 May 09 - 04:39 AM

Great bit of information Noreen .I feel I should point out that "Bargy" is often pronounced incorrectly by many who sing this song, Luke Kelly included. They call it BAR-GEE.This is incorrect. Locally,at least,it is pronounced BAR-GHEE .I hope this makes sense.Forth ,Bargy and Shelmalier are three of the old Baronies of Wexford.
Bargy Castle in the Barony of Bargy was the home of Beauchamp Bagnal Harvey. Latterly it was the boyhood home of singer Chris de Burgh and is still owned by his family.I myself come from strong Shelmalier blood, with a smattering of Forth blood in the mix..


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:09 AM

To make it scan properly,one needs to sing "Goodly news" twice in line five of the first verse! Otherwise,an excellent thread and extremely informative---I /we used to sing this song regularly in the Royal Navy ( where any sort of anti-authority song,particularly those from Ireland,were very popular until,sadly,1969),without necessarily knowing the story behind it.Now, at last, I know !


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 09 - 11:41 AM

Marriner
Do you have any idea of how the Shelmaliers got their name ? I heard that they were the descendants of English settlers who took the side of the native Irish in the 1798 rebellion . The long barrelled guns were for the hunting of snipe in the Wexford marshlands ,which I suppose would have made them "snipers" in the original sense of the word .


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 19 May 09 - 11:48 AM

Excellent thread! My favourite version of this song was by Noel Murphy on one of his early albums, which also features excellent versions of 'The Foggy Dew', 'The Patriot Game' and many other songs later made famous in inferior versions, in my view.


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 May 09 - 11:54 AM

mayomick

Using a punt gun on snipe would be a bit expensive! Mind you, the meat would be ready-shredded, I suppose...

Punt-guns were (are?) used to shoot large flocks of wildfowl (ducks and geese, essentially). They fired a huge amount of shot over a sizeable radius. The punt would be paddled into position in, for example, a reedbed and the hunter would wait for the evening flight of birds into the area.

Snipe are generally pretty solitary. Most I've ever disturbed was about a dozen - in a field full of snow!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 May 09 - 11:59 AM

Click here for a pic of a punt gun used in a recent BBC TV documentary.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,Noreen
Date: 19 May 09 - 12:39 PM

mayomick, as stated above, Shelmalier is the name of an area of Wexford, the Barony of Shelmalier (Síol Maoluír), people from that area being called Shelmaliers.

Great thread!


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,John
Date: 19 May 09 - 04:01 PM

Thankyou Noreen and everyone else. The wonder of the internet. It only took a few hours to answer the questions that have puzzled me for decades.
John in Melbourne.


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 19 May 09 - 04:56 PM

"Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 May 09 - 11:59 AM

Click here for a pic of a punt gun used in a recent BBC TV documentary.

Regards "


Looks like the poor guy in the boat already got it in the back, probably from about four miles away if that's the sort of gun they use. :-)

I agree that this is a great thread, and I have a question about a song and I hope someone here can help me with the story behined it.

As I Roved Out is a beautiful ballad (not the 'Who are you, me pretty fair maid' one, the one that goes
"As I roved out on a bright May morning
To view the meadows and flowers gay
Whom should I spy but my own true lover
As she sat under yon willow tree......."


Can anyone help me with the origins of this song and the story behined it? I've read conflicting ideas about it.

BTW, Check out Seamie O'Dowd singing it on the album Crossroads by himself, Cathal Hayden and Mairtin O'Connor - it's wonderfull.


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:03 PM

GUESTScotsman

Hi! The lyrics of "As I roved out" - and some comments from Andy Irvine, are in the Digital Tradition HERE. I'm sure there are earlier threads about the song - try using the Search box at top of page.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:05 PM

In fact the main thread you need is HERE. Have a look at it and see if it answers your questions.

Best Wishes


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:10 PM

BTW.

The punt was often moved slowly through the reeds into position,using a one handed paddle operated by the hunter as he lay flat and camouflaged to avoid detection. What I don't remember is what happened the recoil!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:12 PM

Martin, thanks for your reply - I already read the Andy Irvine quote elsewhere, but I seem to remember something else that stated that some men were 'forced' into taking charge of estates with land-owning women whose husband were away at war, or something like that????


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MARINER
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:21 PM

You're right there Martin.Anything in a thirty yard radius of one of them punt guns were toast!!.A friend of mine is one of the last punt gunners from the south sloblands of Wexford harbour(The opposite side of the harbour to Shelmalier). and I've seen his gun,no longer in use, I hasten to add, and it's a massive thing.Apparently the recoil of the gun was enough to send the punt flying backwards or astern as we would say, like a speedboat !.
Mayomick, I am not sure of the origins of the Shelmaliers, but I doubt the explanation you were given. The names prevalent in the area makes me doubt that.At a guess I would say that there are more Murphys living there than in any other part of the country with comparable population numbers.Murphy is hardly a name associated with settlers of English descent.But I will check with someone more knowledgeable on the subject than I am .


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 May 09 - 06:57 PM

Good to hear from you, MARINER! Hope all is well.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MARINER
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:49 AM

Hi there Martin ,yes things are fine here, hope they are the same with you. I spent the month of March in the U.S.where I realised another ambition by going to see Gordon Bok at Wood's Hole.It was a marvelous night. Sorry to hear that there is no Cobh Festival this year, what a let down, I will have to re-schedule and see what else is on around the country.
Mayomick ,the name Shelmalier comes from a tribe that lived in the area way back in the mists of time.I have the old Gaelic original name stashed somewhere, will attempt to find it today and pass it on.
                   Jack .


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 20 May 09 - 07:19 AM

Thanks for that info on the word Shelmalier , Mariner. I didn't think it sounded very gaelic ,but I'm no more an expert on Irish than I am on weapons of mass destruction like the punt gun Martin linked to. If they had a few more of those things in '98 they would surely have taught Bookey's regiment how men could fight .


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: Noreen
Date: 20 May 09 - 07:33 AM

Good to hear from you, Mariner.

Now, is the correct spelling Killane (as I always saw it) or Killanne?


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MARINER
Date: 20 May 09 - 09:12 AM

Hi Noreen, I just had a quick check on the ordinance survey map and the only spelling there is Killann !.That is probably the correct spelling as over the years many areas in the county have had their names spelled incorrectly.ie. Murrintown was Murntown, Cleariestown, formerly Cleristown etc.New road signs are now using the old spelling, causing confusion all round.


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:41 PM

In my copy of McCall's Selected Ballads and Poems it's spelt Killann in the main text and Killanne in the index!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: MARINER
Date: 21 May 09 - 08:47 AM

Mayomick, Shelmalier comes from the tribe Síol Maoluír that inhabited the area way back. Mind you, there's still a tribal feel among that crowd "over the water" as we call it.(The far side of the river Slaney from Wexford town )


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Subject: RE: Irish mean
From: GUEST,michael anyone know kelly the boy from killa
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 04:10 PM

gaelge ihave twoverses ilearned at school 50 years ago


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: GUEST,Jackeen
Date: 17 Mar 18 - 06:10 PM

OK, OK, Everyone. Would someone just 'fess up and in the lingo of the Settlers just state clearly w.t.f. does Síol Maoliúr actually translate as?


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: Felipa
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 08:39 AM

Jackeen, síol ("sheel") means a seed, so in this case I suppose a group of related people descended from someone name named Maolúr. The correct spelling of the genitive is Maolúir, with the "i" after the "u". Maol ("mweel")usually means bare, but can be part of a name (Maolcholm aka Malcolm)


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: Thompson
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:41 AM

Shelmalier is indeed a place, the 15km or so in a circle around Wexford town, I think. It's also mentioned in Boolavogue, another song about the 1798 Rising:

At Boolavogue, as the sun was setting
O'er the bright May meadows of Shelmalier,
A rebel hand set the heather blazing
And brought the neighbours from far and near,
And Father Murphy from old Kilcormac
Spurred up the rocks with a warning cry
"Arm, arm," he said, "for I've come to lead you,
"For Ireland's freedom we'll fight or die."

You can follow the route of the Rising if you use Google Maps and go from town to town as mentioned in Boolavogue.

I always heard the line in Kelly the Boy From Killane as "Say what wind from the south" rather than from the sun. 'Beavers' are the beaver hats popular both in America and in Europe in the 18th century. Bag*e*nal Harvey was spelled with an 'e'.

I'm told that there are still Kellys in Killane, and they're still a tall family.

Wexford is a county with a rich mix of people, whose ancestry includes Huguenot (Protestants fled from genocide in France), Palatine (Protestant Germans fled from French genocide), English and Gael.


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:05 PM

Síol Maoluír - any connection with the Glen Malour mentioned in the song "Follow me up to Carlow"?


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Subject: RE: Irish meanings
From: Felipa
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:39 AM

www.logainm.ie gives "Gleann Molúra" as the Irish spelling of Glenmalur, but says nothing, as far as I see, about the meaning of "molúra" or "molúr"


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