BS: BNP: What would you do?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 06:30 AM

Mandotim."Without zero, modern mathematics (and therefore the whole digital world) would be impossible."

Exactly. It is part of the ethnophobic dogma of the BNP that Europe invented everything worth while and then used its brains and ingenuity to civilise the rest of the world, who then turned their ungrateful backs on us. As anyone with half an open mind knows, it just didn't happen like that.

Someone on this thread provided a link to a documentary, the first 20 minutes of which are now on Youtube, but which was originally broadcast by the BBC. It contained a clip of John Tyndall making a speech. In it he said that the only things which Africa ever gave us were witchcraft, voodoo, black magic and AIDS.

He might have mentioned that Africa gave us vast mineral resources, gargantuan amounts of raw materials and several million slaves, without which the industrial revolution could never have happened. Oh sorry, no. Those things were stolen from Africa by sheer naked imperialism. And as part of white attempts to justificy the conquest of Africa, a whole litany of myths and lies was spun about the 'inferior' natives. A litany which the far right continues to gorge itself on.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 07:51 AM

I understand the feeling of wanting to prevent the BNP or its supporters from posting here.

I've got into some nasty rows over racism here.

But I have changed my approach for two reasons.

1, the first thing that happened was that I read a coment by Bearded Bruce that I could not disagree with or the whole foundation of my world view would have collapsed.

It was this "I may utterly disagree with your opinion but I will fight to the death for your right to speak it."

Anyone who has read my posts will know that BB and I are on opposite sides of a grand political canyon, but on this point I utterly had to agree with him.

2, As a result of having to adapt my approach to support peoples right to give their point of view, I realized that there isn't really any need to panic, because on a written chat forum, attempts to advance a fascist ideology are very easy to dismantle.

This thread has confirmed that for me. I am glad that it is here as someone surfing the net one night, looking for info on the BNP, might stumble upon it.

If you read back over this thread and you imagine how it would look to anyone with an open mind, it is clerly an utterly one sided debate.

The anti BNP arguments are substantive, relevant, rational, and above all they are supported by verifiable sources.

The BNP supporter(s) on this thread haven't actually advanced an argument, they have just made a lot of unverified claims.

Every claim they have made has been disproved by verified counter claim.

It is good that BNP supporters be placed in this context as it shows them up for who they are despite their attempts to appear reasonable.

They would have been better off sticking to their own chat forums where there is no opposition to embarass them.

Any opportunity to discredit Nazi propaganda and to expose its lies is a good one as it reminds those who have forgotten why they should never be given any power.

A healthy democracy absorbs them.

Push them underground and they are like a baby alligator flushed down the loo ... they get bigger in the dark and emerge to find us unprepared.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 07:53 AM

I could have said just this ...

Any opportunity to discredit Nazi propaganda and to expose its lies is a good one as it reminds those who have forgotten why they should never be given any power.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 08:02 AM

i couldn't agree more with everyones right to speak out lox, however i don't take seriously anyone who doesn't own up to their identity and truely believes in what they are saying. to everyone who has posted under their real name or known nick name i might disagree with you but you have my respect for having the guts to stand up for what you believe in, even though the majority of us are against you.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 08:11 AM

I agree that all individuals are entitled to voice their opinions, no matter how distasteful they are. From my understanding it is a fundamental human right, just as much as I have an equal human right to state my opinion of the person voicing their opinion.

However, what does not sit comfortably with me is where an individual deliberately lies in order to enforce their view point where this has not been expressed in open debate.

If the BNP want to spout their neo-nazi and racist views openly here that's fine with me as the thinking population will see them for what they really are. If they want to use an open debate forum to help secure a position of power to then carry out neo-nazi and racist actions, that isn't fine.

Fir that reason, for every statement where BNP continue the pretence of being moderate, it is up to us to continue to provide evidence to the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 08:12 AM

That's what I would do.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 08:34 AM

"However, what does not sit comfortably with me is where an individual deliberately lies in order to enforce their view point where this has not been expressed in open debate."


I understand how you feel. But I've come to realize that our honesty is our strength and their lying is their weakness.

Every lie that has been told on this thread can be shown to be a lie.

Everytime one of their lies is shown to be a lie, it chips away at their public image.

Goebbels controlled the information in Germany in the late thirties and early forties.

The BNP have no such control of information. It is easy to provide refutations of their lies and there is nothing they can do about it otheer than wish they had stayed quiet.

Of course this doesn't mean we need to wait for an invitation ... we can expose their lies without them asking us to do it first.


Remember that the point of these arguments isn't to try and convert BNP faithful, but to ensure that uninformed undecided voters make the right decision.

Supplying all relevant information and exposing lies is the best way to ensure this.

Every lie the BNP tells is a nail in their own coffin.

Every post from a BNP suporter on this site is a window into their corruption.

Have faith in your arguments and expect lies and your arguments will endure and lies won't surprise you.


Above all, stand tall!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 08:47 AM

Lox is right. Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves.

If you believe in your case and believe in the intelligence of the reader, there is no need to ban them.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 09:34 AM

"Lox is right. Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves."

Hopefully. And if they don't, we could always resort to the old-fashioned British practice of shoving a red-hot poker up their arses. That'd help Quasimodo Griffin shed his hunch. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 09:41 AM

Just because I am a sometimes-student of history and a notorious pedant, I see a need to throw this in. The BNP are clearly racists, and their platform is focused on this single issue. The Nazis were certainly racists but the National Socialist Workers Party had a very solid set of political and economic goals (like them or not), which attracted many early party members as much as, if not more than, their "Aryan" focus on Germany for the Germans and the Greater Reich. It isn't really correct to refer to the BNP as Nazis...they have all of the Nazis' truly wretched qualities but none of their somewhat better ones.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 10:21 AM

bnp are rubbish, tell your freind to leave bnp or he's not allowed to be your freind anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 10:30 AM

jOhn, somewhat simplified response, don't you think you should at leats give the friend a chance at redemption? p.s. thank you for getting us back on point.

cllr, does this friend know exactly what she has gotten into and has she changed her mind yet?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 10:42 AM

""I have a sneaking suspicion that I know who this Daily Mail Reader is.....but I dasn't say it.""

You are far too nice a person to want to do anything of the sort Sorcha.

PM me, if you feel inclined, and I'll do the job. When it comes to dealing with bigots in general, and racist bigots in particular, I am ANYTHING BUT a nice person.

It would give me the greatest pleasure, providing you are reasonably sure of the identity, to out the despicable little turd.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

"but it reminds me of a similar programme which the Australians had with Aborigines. As in the film, Rabbit Proof Fence."

The film Once QWEre Warriors highlights the Maori experience in New Zealand.

To bring us full circle, back to the Nazies (BNP) there was this experiment performed before and during World War II, which scarred thousands in much the same way as the groups we've already mention

Hitler's Children

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 11:46 AM

"Once QWEre Warriors"

arrrgghhh......! I definitely a new keyboard...that SHOULD read Once Were Warriors! (either that or use spell check more often *LOL*)

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 12:29 PM

i have the same problem, my typing is fine but my keybored makes mistakes. it has dislexia.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: olddude
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 03:01 PM

THERE IS NO ROOM ON THIS SITE FOR HATE. NOT WITH THESE GOOD PEOPLE YOU DON'T- TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. NOT HERE AND NOT WITH THESE GOOD PEOPLE. NOT EVER!!!!!!!! I KNOW OF NO ONE HERE THAT WILL TOLERATE HATE AGAINST ANOTHER. START YOU OWN WEBSITE AND TAKE YOUR BNP, BPN, KKK OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL THE THING AND THE HATE GROUP WITH YOU

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 05:54 PM

did i turn two pages at once?   lox why does it say GUEST LOX i thought you were a member?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM

Prob because cookies needed resetting

I got an email from searchlight and tomorrow they are organising a last-ditch hope not hate campaign.


Get involved if you can and you are against hate politics

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 06:56 PM

>>>RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader - PM
Date: 30 May 09 - 12:55 PM

Every time I submit a detailed response to your questions, someone deletes it ! So direct your questions to them, not me.

I listened to a very moving interview on the radio this afternoon. Yet another World War II veteran, 82-year-old Joe Randall, has come out to bat for the British National Party in the wake of the childish anti-BNP smears launched by the Tory leader and the media in recent days. He spoke with such love for our country and respect for the party.

Mr Randall, who is now playing an active part in campaigning for the BNP in the South West, always wears his campaign medals, won while serving in the paratroops during the war, passers-by to see.

Mr Randall joins numerous other World War II veterans who have come out in support of the BNP over the past few weeks. So far the party has at least three Royal Air Force WWII veterans, including at least one Spitfire Battle of Britain pilot, several Royal Navy veterans (including some who took part in the Dunkirk, Tirpitz and Atlantic Convoy campaigns) and a good sprinkling of D-Day veterans.

These heroes put their lives on the line to fight for Britain all those years ago, and it takes a special kind of person to come out and fight for Britain once again. <<<


My Dad fought in WWII, and you want to know why? He fought for freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of life. He fought against a man who wanted to annhilate an entire race. He fought to ensure that people like the Nazi's would never again come into power.

I met Douglas Bader. Do you remember him? The man who lost his legs, but was so determined to beat Hitler and the scum who surrounded him, that he literally gave all he had to learn to walk, to enable himself to get back in his plane and stop the bastards from what they had planned on doing.

If Douglas were alive today, he'd be out there talking about the scumbags who called themselves the BNP - the Bloody Nazi Party...and urging everyone to take the Flag of England BACK from those who, for way too long, have sought to abuse it.

So don't bring you're snivelling, cowardly, disgusting, wind-up words to me, daring to make out that those who fought in WWII support the BNP, because they are the very ones who went to war to STOP folks like you from ever taking a stand again.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 07:05 PM

Here Here

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 07:09 PM

my father and mother both fought in the second world war, and they too hated any form of racism of any kind and so do I

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM

My father was in the RAF at the end of the war, and my mother was an evacuee.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 08:03 PM

Just to confirm that the above posts are all mine.

Though I do worry sometimes that by not signing in every time I run the risk of being impersonated.

At the moment I am only to be found on this thread and the even more partisan Susan Boyle thread.

And I am now signed in and will not delete my cookie tonight if that offers any reassurance.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 09:02 PM

thankyou lox, i know my memory is shot but i didn't think i was mad as well. well for now at least i know i'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 04:03 AM

My dad fought in WW2 as well. He wouldn't talk about it.

It doesn't prove anything.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:15 AM

"I visited the BNP site last night and there are a lot of World War Two veterans smiling in photographs out on the campaign trail for the party."

Would those be soldiers who fought against the enemy that carried out the Holocaust your miscreant leader denies actually happened?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,BRITISHMAN
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM

I thought te flag was BRITISH and not just England, CORNISH PASTIE, BUT THEN cORNWALL DOESN'T FEEL AS IT BELONGS TO ENGLAND

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 09:20 AM

She's not Cornish though. She lives in Devon. I've forgotten where her roots are - but it's not Cornwall!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Gren
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:38 AM

My home town was visited by a bunch of BNP creeps, weirdos and bigots last saturday.What a shower!They came armed with a bunch of leaflets and a camcorder and a generous dose of race hatred.

Luckily, they were met by around 20 anti fascists with a megaphone who were only to willing to speak out about the BNPs race hatred,fascism and nazism.And they did not like the photocopies we brought with us showing Tyndall the first BNP leader in full nazi uniform posing in front of a framed picture of his hero, Adolph, and a giant swastika.

They weren't too keen on the present leader fatboy Griffin in his racist white power T shirt leading a nazi National Front march.And those misfits,cranks and thugs certainly did not like being called, via the megaphone , nazi thugs and bigots.What a collection of oafs !

No wonder Griffin had to send out a training manual to all his candidates and activist thugs.
Gren

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

""I visited the BNP site last night and there are a lot of World War Two veterans smiling in photographs out on the campaign trail for the party."

The Nazis were very good at using doctored photographs, mind you the allies also pulled the same trick once in awhile.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM

I think I should point out that freedom of speech does not include the right falsely to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre - see Oliver Wendell Holmes, US Supreme court, Schenck -v- US 1919.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM

The following has been said several times on this thread already. Nevertheless, it is important that it is repeated at least once more before the polls close tomorrow night.

If you're resident in the UK, please make sure you get out and vote tomorrow. That applies for the local elections obviously, but even more so for the Euro-election. That one is particularly important because the results are decided by proportional representation and a share of the overall vote.

Voter apathy would mean that the BNP only needed to convince a very small percentage of the overall electorate, and they have been campaigning like mad for weeks now. They will certainly get their own supporters into the polling booths, even though there's not many of them. But there's also an indeterminate number of people out there who may end up voting BNP simply because they are disaffected by the present MPs' expenses scandal. Therefore a low poll could easily end up with the BNP taking seats, not by the democratic will of the electorate, but by default.

DON'T LET IT HAPPEN!

No British fascist has ever held major political office. If British Nazi Party members become the first ones to do so, that will be a huge triumph on their part. What's more, it will unlock shedloads of EU funding for them to spread their vicious logic, and it will give them a forum to cosy up to all their fascist mates in the EU parliament.

If you're so cheesed off that you just don't feel like bothering, remember the words attributed to that wise old sage, Edmund Burke. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Don't be one of the ones who let evil triumph.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/A-Z-of-the-BNP.php

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:46 PM

my postal vote has gone already so my concience is clear. i hope everyone else can say the same in two days time and not sit there thinking "i could hve stopped this" may the gods look down on us with mercy and contempt for the bnp.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:13 PM

What Fred and Jeddy said. Please make sure you use your vote to ensure this openly fascist, proudly racist party don't get a genuine foothold in British politics. If they do we'll all be regetting it for a long time. There is no justification for their politics of hate. A protest vote for the BNP is a vote for bigotry. Don't go there.

Hope not hate.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:23 AM

Just on my way to do the deed. The good news is that the latest MORI poll puts the BNP on 4%, which is not enough for them to make the breakthrough. That is still contingent on decent numbers of decent people turning out to vote for any of the other parties of course.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:25 AM

Do not forget to vote today. If you want to make a protest vote don't base it on what the BNP say, but look at all the evidence in this thread that shows that the BNP are a party of racist, facist bigots.

Also, remind your friends to vote.

And keep your finger crossed that after today Britain and Europe will not be a nastier place to live.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:23 AM

Been and done it. Some agonising about whether to vote Green or Socialist Labour, but in the end the only effective way to vote against the British Nazi Party and the almost as loathsome conservatives was to vote Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:41 AM

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/invite/pollingday

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:08 AM

To anyone who hasn't voted....

Be grateful that you live in a country where you have the freedom to express your choice of representative at the ballot box and look back at states where facists have come to power and taken away that freedom.

Vote, and think carefully about who are are voting for and why.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM

As I said somewhere else earlier today - a refusal to vote is a vote for the BNP

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM

It' s done, for good or ill, I've voted. How did I vote? That's the joy of the secret ballot, you don't have to say, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM

you don't have to say who you voted for that is your' own business, although anyone who does vote for the bnp and i know that is NOT you r.m!! beware admitting it on here,watch out because they might just get lynched. no threat just a friendly word of warning

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:40 PM

Well, to coin a phrase it is all over now bar the shouting (count). The good folks have done their best to help people see through the lies and deceit of the BNP with evidence for what they really stand for.

Maybe it has had an impact, maybe not.

But this isn't the end of the work. If the BNP have won seats, then as folkies, and in particular anyone who has any affinity whatsoever to the civil rights movements, and the liberties that were hard fought for, we owe it to our consciences to scrutinise the words and deeds of BNP both in and outside local and European authorities so that promotion of racial division, fascism and neo-naziism in any form is brought to public attention.

Steve Belsey
Anti-Facist

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:59 PM

The battle against the racist BNP and their thugs will go on regardless.

remember and learn:
The White Rose: A Lesson in Dissent

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:46 PM

I wonder if The Netherlands are any indication!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: fiddler
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:38 AM

So what do you all say to Mike (and me) when our ex friend (mbsGeorge) turns up and says - well I wasn't elected so it doesn't matter any more!

Suggestions please.

Andy

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:46 AM

It does matter if ex friend still remains a BNP member. But I would say something like - reflact on the result at the polling station, look at all the evidence about what BNP is really about, and let me know where you stand from now on as the door to rebuilding the friendship is open, but the onus is on the personto take the right step.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM

Well, it depends...
If she's realised what a bunch of creeps the BNP are because she's discovered at first hand the ignorance, paranoia and hatred that drives them, then I hope she's now sitting thinking, 'Why the f*ck did I even think of doing that?'
And, armed with that experience, she can now tell people exactly why a vote for the BNP is a vote for intolerance, division and discord, and that no-one should be taken in by the bland, quasi-wholesome image the party tries to put over in its public offerings.
But if she hasn't seen the heart of darkness within the BNP, or if she willingly embraces it, then I'd imagine that any friendship with normal people would be difficult.