 sj |
||
|
||
BS: BNP: What would you do?
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: GUEST, Inertial observer Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:46 AM One test of the BNP is to observe its actions. Over on the Facebook "Folk against Fascism" page BNP trolls are routinely impersonating other people, and lying about, for example, receiving pms from Mudcat mambers. I don't think they deserve any good manners from others. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Royston Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:47 AM hollering abuse and expletives at her from a safe distance I suspect is only going to throw someone back into the 'fellowship' of those they feel safer with I don't know what you're talking about here Emma. Writing newspaper articles, producing websites, pamphlets, leaflets, securing media interviews, running web forums, letter-writing to local newspapers. That's activism. Attending rallies, demos, pickets with a healthy cross-section of people includuding social workers, home-makers, teachers, students, solicitors, plumbers, academics. That is activism. As a marshal on some events I can assure you that there is no "hollering abuse and expletives from a safe distance" Hollering abuse and expletives is unlawful. Calling a member of a fascist party "A fascist" is lawful. Getting the truth out there, with solid supporting evidence, is lawful and necessary. How did Tovey-Jones friends' come to know the truth, save for the efforts of anti-fascist activists. For that matter, every "truth" about the BNP stated in this thread and elsewhere can be sourced back to UAF or a trade-union or related website or publiation. I say again, my interest is in getting the truth out there. People can use it to counsel their friends. I would do the same. Together we'll make BNP membership about as "acceptable" as paedophilia. Like BNP Members and activists Ian Hindle and Andrew Wells, convicted in November 2008 of sex attacks on little girls. Members and activists of the same BNP promising to save this country from a tidal wave of filth and "nonces", in their parlance. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Fred McCormick Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:01 AM Emma B, I suspect you've uncovered a worrying characteristic of the BNP. Namely that it's not just a sizeable number of voters who don't realise its true nature. I don't think a lot of their own members do either. I think they've joined because they are cheesed off with the major parties and see the BNP as a radical patriotic alternative. The BNP appeals particularly to the politically clueless and naive. EG., Mrs Tovey-Jones. The best way to stop the buggars is to expose the leadership for the Hitler worshipping scum that they are. Incidentally, it would be interesting to see how much of a correlation could be established between run down communities and BNP support. I say this because it seems likely to me that BNP electoral/membership success in Lancashire ex-mill towns and elsewhere may be due to loss of community following the destruction of local industries in the 1980s. Are we now reaping the whirlwind for the deeds of Margaret Thatcher? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: jeddy Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:13 AM i am not suggesting that we should stop speaking out and educating the public about what the BNP are really like, but there are more poeple that fall into the trap laid for them by the BNP and those are the ones that will dig their heels in if you just shout names at them. i confess i have done my fair share of this and where has it got us? nowhere!! the only way to battle them is to cut off their life support, by educating folks and stop them voting for them. rallies and protests will only go so far and i applaud your comitment royston, but we have to get them on all sides. unfortunatly these people will always find each other and band together BUT if we can make this group of thugs smaller and smaller, we minimise the risk that others will listen, by exposing the lack of intellegence, unwillingness to listen and most of all by their own actions of violence and hatred. thankyou to joe and emma and crowsister for your support, but all i did was to start thinking instead of reacting. THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ANYONE.me getting worked up and outraged will not change anything, only gives me high blood pressure so i am willing to try something different. the only problem is whether i can take my own advise when it comes to face to face meetings and disscussions.... we will see. guest member, you must feel very insecure that a few naughty words on a screen upset you so much, go and grow up then you can join in with the adults. ( there i go again, but don't be fooled with my grown up approach, i like being childish too). take care all jade x x x x |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Emma B Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM Fred, I think the situation in http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/did-BNP-favour-Coalville-voters/article-1069297-detail/article.html was not unique. Take the ward of Coalville - "A decade ago, Labour held 36 of the district's 40 seats. Their majority was so overwhelming that opposition and scrutiny came not from the Tories, who had just three seats and were rarely seen, but from rival factions inside the ruling Labour group and the media. It was at a time when the town, through no fault of its own, was on its knees following the death of the mining industry. Six collieries – Snibston, Desford, Whitwick, Ellistown, South Leicester and Bagworth – closed in and around Coalville in an eight-year period from 1983-1991. About 5,000 men – men with well-paid, proud jobs – were put on the dole. Shops and pubs and businesses which relied on that industry and all that it provided went to the wall. A community which thrived on the commodity which gave it its name was economically and then socially bereft." Areas such as Coalville – including the former mining towns in the north where the Labour vote also collapsed – provided a rich seam of disillusionment for the BNP, said a local 'politics exper "The BNP target white, working class areas with a degree of deprivation," In the run up to the election, most national newspapers, including the local Mercury, ran editorials advising their readers not to vote for the BNP. In a unprecedented move, the NUT delivered leaflets in and around Coalville urging people not to vote BNP. It was a move which played right into the party's hands, argued some. "If you're angry at the system and the establishment and what you perceive to be the same establishment telling you how you should vote, you may well rebel." Now Thatcher can certainly be held responsible for the closure of the pits but - "The New Labour project, that brave centre-left experiment to bring Clintonian Third-Way politics to a post-Thatcherite Britain" must take a very great share of the blame too in it's abject failure to communicate to it's traditional supporters Kowtowing to the Murdoch press and a commitment to spinning a narrative to a 'middle England', have ensured it no longer speaks directly to the poor and disenfranchised "Whenever a section of society is ignored and marginalised, the predatory fascist right move in to fill the vacuum" writes one political blogger |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:33 AM "Crow Sister says she has met some "misguided" BNP converts, well I haven't. And I've spoken to more BNP sympathisers (members of the public not even party-members) on protests and rallies than I care to remember." Not quite BNP 'converts' Royston, but most certainly people who murmur that they are considering voting BNP. I don't think that these are the same people that you may talk to at rallies by a long straw. They're not political activists or white-supremacists, they just feel fucked over and are buying BNP rhetoric. Come to Essex and listen to the bin men for example, it's here *on the streets, in the factories, and in the pubs*, that you'll find the kind of people I'm talking about - not at a rally. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:38 AM Royston, Sorry, I misread your previous comments. Even so, I stand by my own - I have met these people. And I don't believe they're all extremists, just dissafected, and being drawn in. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Royston Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:42 AM Come to Essex and listen to the bin men for example, it's here *on the streets, in the factories, and in the pubs*, that you'll find the kind of people I'm talking about - not at a rally You and I were both at an informal folk gathering recently. I heard the same old casual racist claptrap from a lot of people there. It was deeply shameful. That is why the ant-fascist backlash is trade-union led initiative. UAF is a banner organisation which aims to occupy as much of the media as possible with facts and large-scale events, whilst individual unions work on grass roots information and education aimed at the bin-men, streets, factories and pubs. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:17 AM "I heard the same old casual racist claptrap from a lot of people there." A *lot* of people? That surprises me somewhat actually. Not that I'm unfamiliar with 'casual racism' by any means (it tends to be an unconsidered 'cultural default' amongst some working-class groups in particular), but although my exposure to folk enthusiasts hasn't been extensive, I've yet to witness the same kind of casual racism I see elsewhere, amongst folky types. Not disagreeing of course - you know these people far better than I, just quite surprised. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:34 AM I can confirm, Crow Sister, that I did also hear such casual racist oral claptrap, as indeed I heard it last September and last summer at the same place - and in places even embedded in otherwise left-ish expression, so not solely from the usual suspects. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:42 AM http://www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=90702 Police in Yorkshire investigating possible right wing terrorist conspiracies found the largest stash of arms in the UK since the 1960s - and a BNP membership card. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Azizi Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:02 PM 'casual racism'...tends to be an unconsidered 'cultural default' amongst some working-class groups in particular) I did also hear such casual racist oral claptrap, as indeed I heard it last September and last summer at the same place - and in places even embedded in otherwise left-ish expression, so not solely from the usual suspects. ** I suppose if I responded differently to things, I would be very angry that there existed such a degree of racism that those people who felt that way-and not the people who are reporting it here-consider it to be casual. I feel that I should be angry because there are a lot of people whose racism is their cultural default. I can understand other people being angry and speaking from that anger either because they are themselves a target of such racism, or they have people in their family and/or have friends who are a target of such racism. And I can understand other people being angry whose family and friends fought in wars to try to safeguard the world against the reoccurance of such casual and not so casual racism. I much prefer responses of anger to racism than blandness and a distancing shrugging of the shoulders that "that's life". And sometimes I think that there's something wrong with me that I don't have the energy anymore-and rarely ever did-to show my anger about racism. Typing this I realize that it's not that I don't have any feelings of anger about people not seeing me and other people who are different from them without racist blinders on. Maybe it's just that I don't express anger very well or maybe I don't want to express my anger because it is so emotionally draining to do so. Instead of admitting any anger, when I read comments like the ones I quoted, I just feel very sad. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:56 PM Posted By: TheSnail 12-Jul-09 - 06:33 AM Thread Name: BS: BNP: What would you do? Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? Joe Offer quoting Joe: "London is the most ethnically diverse city I've ever seen - but most of the inland population 50 miles north of London is lily-white, and they're scared of all the immigrants who have moved to their country." Luton is 32 miles north of London. I respect your point of view, but please try and find out what you are talking about before condemning whole areas of the UK as racists. Check your math, and your reading skills, Snail. I figured most people would understand the lily-white area begins 50 miles north of London (and note that I said the inland area). Luton, at 32 miles north, is about the dividing line - and yes, it did seem to be quite ethnically diverse when I visited there. I thought of saying the "inland area north of Luton," but I figured that readers outside the UK wouldn't know what I was talking about. I did NOT say that the people north of Luton were racists. I said they're mostly white, and that many of them are scared of large-scale immigration. Their fears are real, and need to be answered. They need to be exposed to ethnic diversity in positive ways, and not have it shoved down their throats. Condemning an honestly frightened person as "racist" is certainly not a good way to get that person to accept racial diversity. Same is true for people in the north-central US, and for Californians north of Sacramento. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:22 AM No, Joe, their fear is based solely on xenophobia. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:26 AM There is now a fake Kat Coffey too http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=100000084256506 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:41 AM Not just xenophobia Richard. There are quite legitimate concerns about mass immigration. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: TheSnail Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:13 AM Joe Offer I figured most people would understand the lily-white area begins 50 miles north of London Sorry Joe but I think you can forgive my mistake when I say that it never occurred to me that you could be saying anything so absurd. Try these - Birmingham Bradford Manchester Leicester Preston |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Stu Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:14 AM "Check your math, and your reading skills, Snail. I figured most people would understand the lily-white area begins 50 miles north of London (and note that I said the inland area)" I agree with TheSnail - this is simply dead wrong. My paternal family hail from the East End of London and some were Huguenot immigrants, I grew up on the outskirts of Brum, live south of Manchester and was in Bradford last week; these areas have diverse and vibrant ethnic populations and have for years. The Balti curry first came to the UK when it was sold in the balti houses of Sparkbrook. Rurally racial diversity is undoubtedly less, but I think you'd be surprised at the number of languages and cultures many small towns contain these days, and long may it remain so. There's a hell of a lot more to the UK than London. Thank god. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM And indeed the majority of the Roma are outside towns. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Royston Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:45 AM Keith, There are quite legitimate concerns about mass immigration. You're absolutely right. And this is why I want the debate taken away from the BNP and why I keep imploring people to lobby their MP's to be tough on Racists, tough on the causes of Racism. Build enough schools to accommodate everyone in this country Build enough council/social houses Build enough hospitals. Mainstream politicians need to tell the truth about the numbers (which will prove we have no "mass" immigration, save for Eeastern Europeans 2004-2007 whose numbers are now reducing dramatically), and tell the truth about why we need immigration - and in greater numbers than we now have. I took the following article from the Daily Mail. It is unusually thoughtful, although I don't agree with all of it. But it is a well researched piece of work that many may trust more than an article in the Guardian or from a think-tank. The whole thing is at HERE But the piece that is important to the question "why we need immigration" is... OUR AGEING POPULATION The fastest-growing segment of the population is the over-85s, the figures showed. A record 1,243,000 have now passed the age of 85 and the group grew by 6 per cent last year. The number of people over retirement age is now 11,344,000 - up 1 per cent in a year. There are concerns that Britain's ageing population will become difficult to sustain because there are fewer taxpayers to pay for older people's pensions and health care costs. The working age population is growing, although more slowly - it was up by 0.8 per cent to 37,710,000. At the same time the number of children under 16 dropped by 0.4 per cent to 11,537,000. Overall numbers went up by 349,000 to 60,587,000, according to the figures. Just over half of the increase was attributed to immigration, the rest to increasing birth rates. These are rising largely because recent immigrants are having more children than the existing population. One in four of the 734,000 babies born last year had a parent who was born abroad. This is up from one in five in 2001. The rising number of children born to migrants compares with much lower birthrates among women whose background is wholly British And, by the way, the description "...whose background is wholly British" refers to women born in this country, regardless of ethnicity. I checked on the ONS data. So this links in with my other great personal crusade - to get people to realise the lies that politicians tell about pensions. Pensions are a Ponzi fraud. All of them. Personal Equity Pensions won't work, free-markets can't sustain the top-heavy inverted pyramid of the population's age-profile. Each and every final-salary pension plan WILL FAIL for the same reason as the equity plans, only they will all fail more quickly because an individual corporate entity's pension scheme will crumble more quickly under the demands of shareholders for profitability. Only public sector workers whose pensions are paid from tax can theoretically survive this storm, so long as the rest of us are willing to keep paying exponentially higher taxes to fund them. (more state-pensioners + dwindlwing tax-payers = exponential ries in tax). Frank Field is right to point out that this disparity will lead to civil unrest on a catastrophic scale. Governments and professional continuity and contingency planners are already working up scenarios for this while they continue to tell people "don't worry". So our only real hope is to continue to strive for economic success, distribute wealth more fairly, pay higher taxes AND increase the tax-base. We really need to work out how we do that together and it begins with honesty and open-minded thinking. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:09 AM Equity plans will work if markets keep rising. Property investment is not a bad wheeze, as if the population rises so must relative values of property - "Buy land, they aren't making it any more". If course the Barbara Castle Graduated National Pension did depend on continuing tax take, but that's not quite the same as a Ponzi scheme. The "exponential rises" is not quite accurate either. Shall we start another thread about it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Royston Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:23 AM Equity plans will work if markets keep rising. Errm, I think we are living (again) in the proof that this is not a realistic expectation. Property investment is not a bad wheeze, as if the population rises so must relative values of property - "Buy land, they aren't making it any more". But property was being pushed up because people realised pensions are unworkable. The investors plans relies on them ALL cashing in their houses for cash - whioh, when it happens, depresses the market. Another variant of a Ponzi scheme. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do? From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:37 AM Let's have a separate thread. This one is quite long enough with the important topic of how to deal with the dimshits.
Carry on - in another thread - but keep it civil, and remember that we don't allow personal attacks or anonymous posts. -Joe Offer- |