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BS: Child abuse in Ireland

GUEST,mayomick 02 Jul 09 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM
Barry Finn 18 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 18 Jun 09 - 09:23 AM
Den 17 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM
Den 15 Jun 09 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,mayomick 13 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Smokey 12 Jun 09 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,Smokey 12 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,Neil D 12 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 12 Jun 09 - 11:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM
Den 12 Jun 09 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 12 Jun 09 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 12 Jun 09 - 08:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 09 - 07:54 AM
nutty 12 Jun 09 - 07:14 AM
GUEST, Smokey 11 Jun 09 - 09:10 PM
Neil D 11 Jun 09 - 07:26 PM
Den 11 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Smokey 10 Jun 09 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,TonyMcT 09 Jun 09 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Jun 09 - 01:09 AM
Joe Offer 07 Jun 09 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,Smokey 07 Jun 09 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,Smokey 07 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM
Roughyed 07 Jun 09 - 08:05 AM
Joe Offer 07 Jun 09 - 01:46 AM
GUEST,Smokey 06 Jun 09 - 02:42 PM
Barry Finn 06 Jun 09 - 04:55 AM
Joe Offer 06 Jun 09 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Smokey 05 Jun 09 - 08:08 PM
Joe Offer 05 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 05 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Jun 09 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Jun 09 - 07:01 PM
Joe Offer 04 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Jun 09 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM
Joe Offer 04 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 04 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,Smokey 03 Jun 09 - 06:42 PM
PoppaGator 03 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Smokey 02 Jun 09 - 03:38 PM
PoppaGator 02 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,Smokey 02 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM
Barry Finn 02 Jun 09 - 03:17 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 02:34 PM

Fot a link to an interview with Derek Leinster one of the Protestant survivors of abuse I mentioned above .

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jul2009/derekleinsterirtimes1jul09.gif

The way the churches treated the children shouldn't be seen as something seperate from the attitudes of the whole of Irish society at the time. What did the newspapers ,politicians ,trade unions do about it? Even people as progressive in his social attitudes as Noel Browne didn't address the problem.
Orphans were always pitied and at the same time blamed for their positions ,the sins of the mothers visited on the children - they became the embodiment of the concept of original sin . The institutions acted as a warning to women in the same way as prisons did to men. The message they sent out at a time when contraception was banned was don't transgress or this is where your child will end up.
In the end it was the children themselves who exposed the whole thing when they grew up , and the whole of Irish society owes them for that. We should be thanking them as well as apologising to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

not quite!


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM

200


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 09:23 AM

Backed away? No, I just happen to have a job, a family and a life. And therefore a limited amount of time to spend putting the world to rights on the internet.

Oops, here comes the boss. Catch you later. Anyone else read Townsends book, by the way? You'll be relieved to hear it mostly isn't about child abuse.

I can't help wondering whether these kids would have been safer if the 26-county state had never existed. Can you imagine the NHS and the British Labour Movement and welfare state covering the whole of Ireland? Would we still be thinking of Pearse, Connolly and the rest as heroes for trying to prevent that?

Anyone without a vested interest might have looked at British actions in Ireland during the first world war and the 1920s and be struck by the amount of restraint rather than any exceptional severity.

I know they executed most of the leaders of the 1916 rising but spare a thought for the ghastly treatment meted out to the survivors. They got sent to North Wales for two years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Den
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

"Pick a fight," moi?


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM

Den, you asked for evidence, so I found some for you, and it came from a historian you say you respect.
The evidence was also that he was celibate, therefor there is no evidence at all that he did anything wrong even if he was attracted to boys.
It does not discredit Pearse, nevermind the Irish nation!
I am just amazed that you want to pick a fight over this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Den
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:13 AM

Keith, why do you have such a hard-on to discredit the Irish. Again no evidence and by the way that is the one poem that all of Pearce's detractors point to. What does it prove? Nothing. Might be time to put up or shut Keith. Chris B has already backed away from this discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM

Mayomick, I think Catholics feel, or felt, that same sense of loyalty as well. It makes 'religious' abusers that bit more powerful, and I'm sure they know that and use it to their advantage.

The real scandal is that the abusers look like getting away with their revolting crimes, anonymously and free from prosecution, and most of the compensation will be paid by the Irish taxpayer, not the Catholic Church who are both complicit and ultimately responsible. If it was any other organisation there would be a very different story; they'd be put out of business and the offenders would be jailed.

One in twenty four abusive priests (and that's only the priests) is maybe an understatement, but if we were discussing a disease that had infected a twenty fourth of the population, it would be regarded as a serious epidemic. Child abuse can be passed on to the victim; in a sense it could be said to be contagious. The Catholic Church has proved itself to be, at best, irresponsible and not worthy of trust.

Publicity is the only weapon against corruption of such magnitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

People are rightly incensed at the Catholic Church , but it wasn't only the Catholic orders that abused children in their care . Ireland's protestant churches in the south also ran orphanages where children were sexually and physically abused.
A protestant friend of mine who was abused in a Dublin protestant orphanage in the nineteen-fifties and sixties told me that in many ways the abuse felt worse for protestant boys .They held ,he said ,a certain sense of outsiders' loyalty towards their co-religionists in a country where Protestantism and protestants were often blamed for British colonial oppression .
For a long time this sense of "sticking together" and "not letting the side down" stopped my friend from coming forward and claiming the compensation that both the state and the protestant church acknowledged he was entitled to. His wife eventually persuaded him to make a claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:29 PM

The Pope speaks


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM

Neil, it brought tears to my eyes, and I urge everyone to please watch that clip of Michael O'Brien. He is indeed a hero, and I hope everyone can appreciate why. Consider too that he is but one in thousands. Apologies from the Catholic Church to these people are a pathetic gesture and amount to nothing more than a massive insult. As I remember, it was St. Patrick who introduced Christianity to Ireland - I don't think he did them much of a favour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM

Smokey, You're absolutely right about Michael O'Brien's courage. To have survived such childhood horror and go on to become a councilor and mayor took incredible fortitude. And then to so publicly expose his anguish to try to make the horror stop, to ensure that future generations of defenseless children are never victimized in that way again. In my book Michael O'Brien is a great hero. If you don't know what I'm talking about yet, go to my last post and click on his name.
It will tear your heart out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:42 AM

Right, I think the jury's out on Pearse.

What seems to me to be really important is what this whole episode says about the Irish State. Which is not only what the priests did but how the whole apparatus of the state as well as the wider society allowed it to go on for as long as the did.

One of the findings of the report is that a contributory factor was the continuation of the Industrial School system in Ireland after independence - the report says the system was abolished in the UK after 1920.

The implication seems to be that at least some of these children would have been safer if the 26 counties had not seceded from the UK. Not that there was no abuse in the UK and not that the Catholic church had a monopoly on it - but the Catholic Church in the UK did not have the same power over the state that it did in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM

Den, continue reading the "celibate" sentence and you find,
.."the evidence showed him to have been attracted by boys and young men."


Also, one of his poems includes;
'There is a fragrance in
your kiss

That I have not found yet

In the kisses of women

Or in the honey of their

bodies.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Den
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:36 AM

Keith, no evidence of paedophilia in the piece you pointed to. Ruth Dudley Edwards is a meticulous researcher. I'm sure if there had been evidence to suggest anything untoward she would have mentioned it at least once in her book as her's is considered the definitive account of Pearse's life. Lets not forget Dudley Edwards was no great admirer of Pearse or Irish independence. This quote from the author is interesting, "I was sure Pearse was celibate and as innocent as he was honourable."

I have no problem with Pearce being homosexual, if indeed he was. But to call the man a paedophile is quite another matter. Townsend's book is pure speculation. Again no proof. Surely if there were proof it would have come to light by now.

The paedophile/homosexual theory is based on one single poem written by Pearce, where the narrator of the poem refers to their lover as he. This is the only "evidence" ever used to justify claims that Pearse was homosexual or paedophile.

Oh, nice parting shot Chris. I'm truly stung. So, what are you saying, we're all paedophiles now? No more proof then I take it.

The danger with these misguided statements is, that they end up being tagged in Google searches and ultimately result in influencing the less enlightened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:07 AM

By the way, Keith, thanks for the link. Are we seriously to believe, though, that in all that time Pearse kept his hands to himself? Hmm....


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:11 AM

Den,

I refer you to Charles Townsends recent book on the 1916 rising.

And yes, I was born in Britain. Having read parts of the recent report on child abuse in Ireland I can only thank God that I was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:54 AM

Den, you may want to read this piece by Pearse's biographer Ruth Dudley Edwards.
http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/the-terrible-legacy-of-patrick-pearse-348632.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: nutty
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:14 AM

IT'S A VERY STRANGE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN ....... but at least people are being prosecuted now.

CLICK


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST, Smokey
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:10 PM

Thanks very much for that clip, Neil; the courage and dignity of that man is inspiring and should be a lesson to us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Neil D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:26 PM

I heard about this yesterday on NPR: Michael O'Brien

   They also talked about how the Catholic Church in Ireland has fought to keep the government out of institutions like schools and orphanages, etc... over many decades, even going so far as to bringing down public officials and administrations. Possibly not intentially, but this maintaining of total control of these institutions could only have exascerbated the problems of abuse and corruption. So of course it is the church that must bear the brunt of the responsibility. I know that there has been much good done by the Catholic Church but there are also centuries of inhumanity, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, wars and oppression. So if this current crisis must bring down the church, which I grant would be bad for poor people all over the world, then so it must be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Den
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM

Chris B (born again Brit), please substantiate your following comment, "Easter rising of 1916 led by the homosexual paedophile Patrick Pearse." Please provide proof or withdraw the comment. Sounds like you're letting your bigotry blind you again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:59 PM

Tony - I don't know whether you're being serious or ironic, but I don't think there are any 'sides' to this discussion..


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,TonyMcT
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:13 PM

Well said smokey, bring on the schism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:09 AM

I wasn't actually suggesting you left the church Joe, I wouldn't be so personal and it's none of my business, but I can't help thinking that the 'dark side' of the Catholic faith would have great difficulty existing all on its own.

Regarding confession of abuse, if I understand you correctly, that is one way a priest could be guilty of what might be called aiding and abetting a crime over here, or at least failing to report a crime. There seems to be a conflict of interests between 'church law' and actual law, and yet the priest cannot actually be touched by the law as long as he keeps his mouth shut forever, which of course the church has directed him to do. In that sense, the church is without doubt helping the abuser to offend. Despite the intention, that seems immoral to me, and an ineffectual way to discourage or prevent crime. Socially speaking, I think it sets a poor example, and I'm inclined to disagree that it could possibly be beneficial to anyone's psychological welfare unless they had been first conditioned to think they needed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:36 PM

Well, yeah, Smokey, leaving is an option, why I should abandon MY Catholic Church, because there are some bad people who are members who try to pervert the ideals of the church. I'd rather stay in and do my best to wrest it away from them.

And in every parish I've belonged to where there have been problems, I've made noise until problems were resolved. I've chewed out drunken priests more than once, written long letters of protest to autocratic priests, withheld contributions, and cooperated in two sexual misconduct investigations (neither one involved children). That has earned me a reputation for being a pain in the ass to some in the Catholic Church, but such is life. Generally, I'm well-known and well-liked in my diocese.

Smokey, "zero tolerance" for child molestation is now the rule in all dioceses in the United States except Lincoln, Nebraska (led by the infamously ultraconservative Fabian Bruskiewicz). I don't know about policies in the rest of the world.

As for the "seal of confession," there is a rule that prohibits priests from revealing anything told to them in the Sacramento of Reconciliation (formerly known as "confession.") HOWEVER, we were taught in the seminary that if a person confessed something that was a crime, the person was to be strongly encouraged to turn him/herself in to law enforcement authorities. Priests have the authority to refuse absolution (forgiveness of sin) to anyone they think isn't truly sorry for what they've done - evading the police would certainly be an indication of lack of true contrition. the Sacrament of Reconciliation is supposed to be a sacrament of healing, allowing a person to go on with life instead of wallowing in guilt. It's supposed to help people take responsibility for what they've done, make reparations, and then move on to a better life. But yes, what's said to a priest in confession is held in strict confidence.

But priests complain about what they hear in general, without specifics. They grip about people who are overly scrupulous, going to confession once a week to confess ridiculously minor infractions. They also complain about people who do something really bad and figure they can get off scot-free by just confessing what they did. Priests take the Sacrament of Reconciliation very seriously, and it's generally a very healthy thing for the psychological welfare of people.

I have an Irish-born pastor who was a bastard to me as an employer, and that's why I give my money to the poor instead of to the parish. Still, I have to admit that he does a very good job, especially with baptisms, funerals, and the Sacrament of Reconciliation. His sermons are good, too - he's a great storyteller, and not a bad singer. I think part of his value is that he is a deeply flawed person, and he knows it. That helps him have empathy for other people. He doesn't even hold it against me for withholding my contributions.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:29 PM

Every organization has a "dark side" - but people don't usually have to buy into an organization's bad side if they don't want to.

But it could be argued that they support the 'dark side' simply by being part of (thus supporting) the organisation as a whole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

I daresay in practice there's a great deal of variation, but are there any definite guidelines as to what action a priest should take if a crime is 'confessed' to them? I didn't have a Catholic upbringing, so I don't know, but how likely is an abuser to 'confess' what he or she has done? I've heard many times of people inventing sins in confession just to keep the priest happy; I can't help wondering what the overall level of honesty really is.

I can't see much point in arguing over statistics - one can make statistics say virtually anything. The fact is that anything greater than zero percent child abuse is unacceptable, and it doesn't matter whether it's priests, nuns, brothers or the Pope who's doing it, it's the fact that it's going on in Catholic institutions which have a duty of care.

There have undoubtedly been cover-ups, and they have been committed either for the benefit of the church ('not rocking the boat') or for the benefit of the offender/s. Either way it's to the detriment of the child and society in general. Abused children often go on to be abusers, that's been a well understood phenomenon for years. They, however, will not be the ones who are coming forward. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg, and anything less than 'zero tolerance' is perpetuating the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Roughyed
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:05 AM

You are fortunate in your experience of the Catholic church Joe, mine was considerably darker. It didn't include sexual abuse, just physical abuse, injustice and humiliation. It also was not mainly delivered by the clergy but by lay teachers some of whom clearly enjoyed their cruelty - only they can judge what the nature of their pleasure was but some of them did get remarkably red faced. But it was done at a school in England run by the De La Salle brothers and they took an active part in the violence.

Most of the time I just get on with what has been till now a very happy life but every few years I find that something crops up that brings the abuse back causing me psychological problems that I have to work through. The most damaged people I have met are the ones who say it never did them any harm.

But I know many kind and good Catholics. The organisation is closed to me because it makes me feel very uncomfortable but this has been positive because it has made me look elsewhere for spirituality.

Part of that journey has been the realisation that it is not so much the religion you have that matters as the way you put it into practice. The Christian god is traditionally one of authority as well as love. The problem is that it is easy to delegate authority but you can't delegate love; that has to be discovered anew by every individual and many Catholics use their religion as an inspiration to do just that.

By the way Joe, I think you're a really nice bloke but you might be a heretic! :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:46 AM

Sorry about the confusion, Smokey. There was only a short time between my post and the update, and I thought I'd get it in before anybody read the incomplete message.

I think it's important to realize that the "institutional" Catholic Church is only one aspect of a very complex whole, and it's probably not the most important aspect. In a place of business, it's the people who do the work who are most important, not the managers who get the pay and recognition. Same goes for a church. The essence of a church is not the poser-authority structure, even though that structure is often the most visible aspect. The essence of a church is the local congregation.

While the Catholic Church has a very visible worldwide structure, parishes (local congregations) are largely autonomous. Life in a parish can go on for weeks with hardly a mention of Rome, and the essence of parish life is the interaction of people who pray and work and socialize together. Each parish has its own personality. I judge the health of a parish by how long people linger after Mass on Sunday, chatting and enyoying each other. In my parish, it's an hour to 90 minutes, and a good number of people stay after the weekday Mass for a good 45 minutes. Tonight, we cooked dinner for 50 homeless people who stay overnight in the church hall one night a month - and we had a great time doing it. People who come to our parish say they enjoy our friendly atmosphere and our wonderful music, and our pastor's stories and Irish humor, and his remarkably gentle way of dealing with babies and the dying - he's especially good at baptisms and funerals.

Now, I used to go to another parish five miles away, but it was taken over by a new pastor who's a megalomaniacal petty despot. But I have a choice - why should I choose that? I live in a conservative area, and many people choose to go to the maniac's parish because they feel comfortable with his authoritarianism, but that's their choice. I certainly wouldn't go to such a church on a regular basis.

The problem with threads like this, is that they reoprt bad things way out of proportion. Yes, the child molestation scandal is a horrible thing, but even the broadest estimates say less than ten percent of priests were involved - and the nationwide estimate in the U.S. was 4.3 percent. The church-run government schools in Ireland were a serious problem, but what percentage of Irish children attended such schools? There are all sorts of comments in this thread about how shameful it was for the Catholic Church to allow such a thing to go on, but how widely was the problem known? How many of you know the goings-on in children's institutions in your own town?

Chris B says, "every Irish man who was trained and worked as a priest since the 1920s is guilty" - how many of these priests had knowledge of the goings-on in these government schools? Most Irish priests belong to dioceses, or to religious orders other than the Sisters of Mercy and the Christian Brothers - the two orders who operated most of the schools.

So, yeah, I'm still complaining that people in this thread are painting too broad a picture of the "dark side" of the Catholic Church. Every organization has a "dark side" - but people don't usually have to buy into an organization's bad side if they don't want to. I would venture a guess that I have a wider experience in the Catholic Church than almost all of you combined, and almost all of my experience has been very good. I asked my Irish pastor this morning about his upbringing in the Catholic Church in Cork, and he said it was a positive experience - a few problems here and there, but nothing notable.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:42 PM

Joe, I think adding to your posts later, after people have made their replies and with the benefit of hindsight when not everyone has that advantage or privilege is a bit of a dirty trick in my book, and hardly a gentlemanly way of debating.

I take your point about the difference between abusers and molesters and I'm pleased that we both recognise that distinction - I thought it was in danger of getting lost at one point. Basic violent abuse of children, or corporal punishment as some would have it, is as you say, hardly peculiar to Catholic society. Nor is sexual abuse, come to that, but I don't see what that has to do with the discussion. However, the violent abuse is only dying out because more and more people are recognising it as being fundamentally wrong, and that process seems to have taken a bit longer in Ireland. I think the Catholic faith has played a significant part in keeping Irish society 'behind the times', and I think that is because by sheer weight of numbers, it could. It's all down to control and power, in my opinion.

My view of the Catholic church is what it is - I'm 'outside' the faith so it could never be like yours, Joe. I'm grateful for your insight into U.S. Catholicism; mine is very much a European viewpoint - where its power and influence has always been somewhat greater than in the U.S.

My point about the Catholic Church not caring for people was referring to 'the monolith', as opposed to individual occurrences. I see a distinction between Catholism and Catholics, and in that context I meant Catholicism. I apologise for not being clearer. What you refer to as a 'broad generalization', I see as a view of the bigger picture - I'm fully aware there are many possible viewpoints, and we are both only stating our opinions after all. Indeed, we could probably clog up the internet with an argument over the phrase "with little basis in fact." :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:55 AM

"And your supporting evidence, Chris?"

Because they continue to have to be dragged to the courts screaming, kicking & biting. Crying all the way about monetary limits & caps on payments aside from hanging on to books & evidence that they covert & have their lawyers shield until they have no other choice. They should've come clean from the start but they always put themselves before their victims, at least untilthey're shamed & have their backs up against the walls,,,, in the same way they held their victims. They still to this day won't come clean.

"What about the orphanages Dickens wrote about in Oliver Twist, or the workhouses in England and Ireland"

Joe, could you point to any evidence of sexual abuse in Dickens or are you lumping child abuse & child labor as a catch all? Child abuse & child labor belongs in all our backgrounds.

My thoughts so far are that there is no proof yet that the sexual abuse in not a modern system wide (20th century) happening. That's because it wasn't a haven for predators until the system failed in where it wanted to go & how it was to get there in modern 20th century society & what it wanted to go after.

"The Catholic Church cooperated with slavery in the United States, and with the cruel dictatorships of South and Central America. Again, a terrible shame, but by far not the only source of such cruelty. All of our ancestors were complicit to some extent in such atrocities - it was not merely a Catholic phenomenon."

Think Native Americans & Native Hawaiians as the tip of an iceberg & the Cathloic (though they were not alone) as the first wave in the conquest. While colonizing far off lands they attracted a certain element of pious preachers hell bent of stealing resources. It was the same attraction then the only difference was the focus of the desires. Then it was resources now children, all done in the name of the Lord.
If the focus were saving souls maybe they would still be in the business.

So where, what & when was the start of the predators gravitating to become beacons of the church? What was the timing & where were they (the church)going when this all got beyond what would be rational (because at the moment it way beyond out of control)? They went off course somewhere. I always believed that the Catholic Church always had it's dark sides, ever since mid-evil :0) times as did other religions but not to this point there was a balance of give & take. "We take your________ we save your soul" but now it's way past the taking & not much in the giving.

If the predator percentages inside the church were the same as those outside the church it would not be this far out. I don't belive the percentages quoted above as 4% are true. Most of those were from the studies done in the early 90's when this 1st came to light. I mentioned a quote in the above links where LA was at 10%, this was in 2008 a much more recent study. Add to that that very few incedents go reported & very few victims (I think I read 5%) report so the suspected percentages are suspected to be much higher than prviously thought. Which to me makes perfect sense.
There is just to many cases for those privious 4% numbers to even be close to the mark.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:27 AM

Smokey, Chris was responding to my comment about the child abuse in Irish schools, which was an institutional phenomenon, supported by the mores of Irish society as a whole.
There is no question that child molesters will act again, given half a chance.

As for the rest of what you say, I think you are misinformed. Oh, I'm sure there are bureaucrats in the institutional structure of the Catholic Church who are concerned with "economic growth, stability, power structure and expansion," but that's something you'll see in the structure of every organization, and it's not particularly overpowering in the Catholic Church. Those are the strange priests I described above, the ones who "work downtown" in the bishop's office. I've been known to refer to them as "eunuchs" and "company men." Parish priests generally don't think very highly of them.

You see a Catholic Church that is far more compulsory than has been my experience, and my experience is very broad. Certainly, I raised my kids Catholic, but I didn't beat it into them and I did my best to make it an enjoyable experiece for them; and I didn't require them to go to church once they were in their mid-teens. My parents raised me the same way in the 1950's. The same is true for most American Catholics nowadays. Even in the 1950's, it wasn't as rigid as one might think. Now in Ireland, it appears to have been a completely different story. In my experience, Catholic churches I attended in Ireland were joyless and repressive - although I'm sure there are exceptions.

As for your comment about the Catholic Church not caring for people, my home town of Sacramento has a network of food banks, the women's center where I work, a service center for the homeless, and a dining room for the homeless - all founded by Catholics and serving everyone who comes to the door, no matter what their religious beliefs or lack thereof. Together, these programs feed thousands of people every day, and provide housing for hundreds - without preaching or recruiting or attaching any strings. In other words, I think you're making broad generalizations with little basis in fact.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:08 PM

Any religion into which people are born and raised without choice, (as opposing to knowingly choosing membership on an informed basis at a responsible age) is pretty much bound to encompass both the best and worst ends of humanity and everything inbetween, as there is no selection process. One glance at the history of Catholicism and that is horribly obvious; the bigger the religion, the more obvious those extremes are. Whatever brand of dogma people happen to be raised on, they will ultimately process and interpret it to suit themselves, albeit within the confines of their surroundings. I personally think that Catholicism (the monolith as seen from outside) couldn't care less who it has as a member as long as it maintains its economic growth, stability, power structure and expansion. I don't think it sets out to produce either good or bad people, just people who aren't non-Catholics. It started as a political movement seeking power and wealth, and (when viewed from the outside) it still is. Their power structure provides equal opportunities for both 'saints' and child molesters, and as Joe says it's impossible to tell them apart, save by their actions, and even then it can be debatable. Catholicism should start caring for people instead of just regarding them as a means to an end if it wants to maintain any credibility in a world that is slowly but surely waking up to reality. Or at least a broad band of mutually acceptable reality anyway. We yet have a fair way to go..

Child molesters almost invariably don't give it up unless they are physically forced to - Chris is right; they would still be doing it if they could get away with it, no question about it. It's not a disease and there isn't a cure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM

And your supporting evidence, Chris? You don't get many points in a debate by simply responding "bullshit" to your opponent. But let me call attention to a statement you posted, so people will see that your perspective might be a bit skewed:
    It is clear that from its inception the Irish 'Republic' has been a corrupt and degenerate state. I hope that in the light of what has happened Gordon Brown or David Cameron will find the courage to clearly state that no British subject will ever be compelled to live under such a regime.
What about the orphanages Dickens wrote about in Oliver Twist, or the workhouses in England and Ireland. If they weren't run by priest or nuns or brothers, why were they cruel? It's because society was cruel to lower-class people, and especially to children. It is a terrible shame that the Catholic Church was an instrument of that cruelty - but the cruelty would have been there, with or without the Church.
Oh, and think about getting your facts straight. The government-owned schools in Ireland were operated by religious orders of nuns and brothers, not priests.
The Catholic Church cooperated with slavery in the United States, and with the cruel dictatorships of South and Central America. Again, a terrible shame, but by far not the only source of such cruelty. All of our ancestors were complicit to some extent in such atrocities - it was not merely a Catholic phenomenon. I think that society has reached a point where such societal cruelty is not as likely - I hope I'm right.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM

Joe:

'I think it was chiefly an aspect of the attitudes of another age'.

Bullshit. If they thought they could still get away with it they'd still be at it. That's the only thing that's changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:25 PM

There are so many types of, and motivations for child abuse I think it's practically impossible to lay the blame in any one place or set of circumstances. It's true that sexual repression will invariably mess people up, as it directly contradicts our survival instinct, but even the result of that is unpredictable. Generally speaking, if we are told something pleasurable is 'wrong' (sex, drugs, rock and roll, bacon sandwiches) it makes it more attractive. It is the power that the Catholic church has over societies (Ireland in this case) which gives rise to the structures in which child abuse can easily occur, not the faith itself. That power varies in degree from place to place, and I'd guess that the level of abuse varies in tandem with it.

To sort of back up some of what Joe's saying, it occured to me that I personally know of three child abusers locally. Two of them play in folk bands - statistics can be deceptive, and usually are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:01 PM

I don't think it was I am a pedophile I think I will be a priest. I think it was far more complex...I am from a very poor family more often than not. I truly believe in all the church teaches. I really do not want to be a substinence farmer. If I never see a spade again I will be very happy. I want to study Latin and Greek and not potato weevils.    Girls scare me. My mother is the saintliest person in the world. She was defiled by you know what and is a physical wreck from having 13 children in 14 years. I believe, as the church teaches, that sexual activity between man and woman is really really frightening and repulsive and horrifying and will lead to eternal damnation and I am capable of denying myself that contact and will do my darndest to see that others do the same.

Then they find themselves in a situation where their every move, at least with vile women, is watched...I don't know the whole story...but someone should be doing some research on this.

And as to Africa..it seems to me I have heard of abuse of nuns by priests concerning the AIDS situation..I can't say for sure. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM

That's the problem with child molesters, that they can hide quite easily. I had to interview a number of child molesters in the course of my 25 years as a U.S. government investigator. All seemed to be very admirable, normal, balanced people. Their victims rarely complain because they may not even completely understand what happened to them until they reach adulthood.

I think that it may be futile to try to screen out child molesters before they prevent their crimes - from what I understand, they almost always appear normal. There are things we can do to help prevent the crime itself, especially by eliminating situations where a child is alone with an adult - this has worked well for the Boy Scouts, but has not completely eliminated their problem.

Another thing that's essential, is very honest education of both children and adults, so they learn how to detect when a man's conduct with a child is suspicious, and so they learn to report the problem to somebody who had the ability to look into it further. Too often, people just don't realize that child molestation is going on right under their noses.

I know my viewpoint is not a popular one here, but it's clear to me that child molestation and child abuse are NOT an inherent aspect of anyone's religious faith, be it Roman Catholic or any other religion. these crimes are always aberrant behavior, and are not the norm for any religious group.

I still haven't seen data that indicates that the percentage of priests who molest, is significantly higher than the percentage of molesters among men in general. That figure of something between four and five percent seems to appear again and again, although there are places where the percentage was as high as ten percent. Yes, that's a lot of offenders - no doubt about that at all. Still, I think that fairness demands that we recognize that the overwhelming majority of priests have never and will never commit such a crime.

Just as embezzlers gravitate toward occupations where they are entrusted with money, I suppose it's true that potential child molesters are drawn toward occupations where they are entrusted with children. At one time, it was unthinkable that a priest would commit such an evil crime as child molestation, so priest-molesters could carry on undetected for years. Nowadays, every priest is suspect, so I think you'll find that the priesthood will no longer be a safe haven for child molesters - at least I hope so.
In the past five years, the Catholic Church in the U.S. has paid about two billion dollars in settlements to people who were sexually abused by priests. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of victims who were compensated, were adults who were molested as children many years ago. It would appear that the preventive measures the Catholic Church has enacted are working, but are they? How many crimes against children are happening today, and how long will it take until they are reported?

As for the Irish schools, I think it was chiefly an aspect of the attitudes of another age. Dickens wrote about the same kind of abuse in Oliver Twist, and the orphan trains of the U.S. displayed the same kind of abusive attitude toward lower-class children in America. In Ireland, the Catholic Church was a willing instrument of the same sort of abuse, but Angela's Ashes demonstrates that the attitude of abuse toward lower-class children was an intrinsic part of Irish culture into the 1960's. Why did it last so much longer in Ireland? yes, I suppose the oppressive and obedience-obsessed attitude of the Irish Catholic Church was a major factor. But once upon a time, it was almost a universal truth, that anyone confined to any institution was likely to be abused - orphanages, mental hospitals, military academies, wherever. Until about 35 years ago, the U.S. military used abusive treatment as an essential part of its training of new recruits. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" was once accepted as a universal truth.

I do not believe that abuse and molestation of children are inherent aspects of the Catholic faith. They are aberrations - certainly widespread, but still not an inherent aspect of the religion.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:37 PM

A 'relatively small' percentage (4.3?) means quite a high number of priests, and they're only the ones who've got caught so far. The rest will now be more careful, but they'll carry on whenever and wherever they can. Many will seek posts in places where they are less likely to be discovered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM

Of course it's systemic; most of the officials who let it happen in Ireland were Catholics too. That's the danger of a single religion having so much influence in one place. It will undoubtedly be happening to some degree wherever the Catholic church is 'caring' for or 'educating' children. The same structure that enables good people to do good things also facilitates abuses just as effectively, maybe more so. There will be a lot more scandal to come yet - India and Africa, for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM

MG, it's a problem of distinctions we've been having throughout this thread. The government-owned, church-run Irish schools had a special problem of child physical abuse that seemed to be the rule all over the network of schools. Part of the problem was sexual molestation, but that was not universal. Still, the abusive practices in the schools made it easier for the molesters to do their dirty work.

This is different from the problems in the US, Canada, and Australia, which are primarily sex molestation cases committed by a relatively small percentage of priests. Canada had some schools where abuse was universal - I don't know whether this happened in the U.S.

Both problems are deplorable.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM

Good points, but why was it also rampant in US and I think Australia and parts of Canada? It is systemic I still say. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Apologies if I've missed something by not having read every single post, but all this stuff about land inheritance and mothers seems a bit beside the point to me.

This went on throughout the history of the Irish state. For that to have happened for so long to so many children suggests to me that every priest must either have been doing it or have been aware of it happening. Which means that every Irish man who was trained and worked as a priest since the 1920s is guilty.

However, the report makes it clear that the blame goes further than the priests. The schools inspectors and other agencies of the state either ignored the problem or (more likely) didn't think it was a problem. The state was in the palm of the priests' hands and saw keeping the priests happy as being more important than keeping kids safe. Some might say it was a sign of the times but then so was gassing jews or lynching blacks - that doesn't excuse it.

The medical establishment must have known about it as well. Did no-one ever question how boys were turning up in hospitals with anal injuries from forced buggery or why 13 or 14-year old girls were getting pregnant? No, because the doctors were also complicit, along with the police and the politicians. And the whole mess stems from the moral and intellectual retardation of a sectarian state that was prematurely born out of partition (something that itself was made inevitable by the Easter rising of 1916 led by the homosexual paedophile Patrick Pearse).

It is clear that from its inception the Irish 'Republic' has been a corrupt and degenerate state. I hope that in the light of what has happened Gordon Brown or David Cameron will find the courage to clearly state that no British subject will ever be compelled to live under such a regime.

Every Irish priest is guilty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:42 PM

You could well be right there, PG, mothers generally have more contact with, and therefore a greater potential for influence on children, particularly in their formative years. Personally I don't think religion should be allowed anywhere near children until they are at least well able to think for themselves. They deserve proper education, not stuffing with unscientific and illogical ideas/ideals that they have to spend the rest of their lives grappling with unnecessarily, trying to reconcile them with the reality which they actually experience. Orwell's notion of 'doublethink' springs to mind, as does the concept of cognitive dissonance. Little wonder that so many get screwed up by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM

Good question, Smokey; I wonder why, too.

But I think that in most cases of screwed-up childhoods, the mother is more obviously culpable than the father ~ maybe just because she's the one who deals with the kids most regularly (at least, in most cases, and especially when we're talking abouty a generatin ago or longer).

I also think that women are more likely than men to accept church authority. They certainly account for a much higher percentage of church attendees ~ always have, and still do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:38 PM

I understood that much, but why specifically the mother? Why not the father?


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM

Barry ~ point taken.

And as far as mg's "mother theory," I think I understood it right away. In some families, in some circumstances throughout history, the mother (herself unduly influenced by her understanding of religion) is a willing and very able co-conspiritor with the Church in screwing up the lives of the next generation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM

Sorry Barry, you're right - I was just trying to understand mg's 'mother' theory. My fault.


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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:17 PM

This 1st son issue is completely off target & is not at all related to the subject at hand. Where & why did this discussion get so far off track?

Barry


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