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BS: Child abuse in Ireland
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 22 May 09 - 08:15 PM Could the matter not be dealt with by the European Courts of Justice or Human Rights in the absence of any justice from the Irish government? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 23 May 09 - 05:05 AM In many places and in many situations, there is a "statute of limitations" that prohibits prosecution of certain crimes after a period of time. In the United States, the "statute of limitations" was lifted because of the huge number of offenses uncovered, and the Catholic Church paid billions in damages, a large portion of which was for offenses committed in the 1950's through 1970's. While I admit the offenses were horrendous, it's hard to defend oneself against a charge that's thirty years old. In this case, it was the employer of the defendants who was being held accountable - and the bill is being paid by lay people who were children at the time the offenses were committed. While there may not be the huge charge for reparations in Ireland, many of the offenders may be over the age of 80. Certainly, they should have been held to answer for their offenses; but if their age is so advanced, is it really worth the expense to prosecute such people? I'm sure that there is a great desire to punish the Catholic Church for the offenses committed by its priests and nuns, and by those who covered up the offenses - but it's too late for that. The Catholics who get the blame, were children when the offenses were committed. It seems to me that much of the anger is misdirected, and much of the cost is being borne by people who are completely innocent of the offenses - and much of the energy spent on this whole thing is an expression of revenge, and not a solution to the problem. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Connacht Rambler Date: 23 May 09 - 07:05 AM The Christian Brothers head or spokesman in Ireland, Brother Edmund Garvey, keeps banging on in the media in Ireland about how much they have done in recent years to help the victims of their abuse. I know two victims of sex abuse in the Industrial School in Salthill, Galway, who sought justice in the courts. They were cracking up with anger and frustration because the Christian Brothers employed solicitors and barristers to stall their cases for years, presumably in the hope they would die off or top themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 23 May 09 - 01:33 PM Making the Catholic Church pay compensation to the victims does not equate to blaming innocent lay persons who were children at the time of the offences. The surviving offenders should be brought to justice regardless of how old they are; a crime is a crime, and an example should be made of the perpetrators along with any individual or organisation which aided and abetted those crimes. It has nothing to do with punishing the Church, it is about justice on behalf of the victims. How the Vatican deals with the expense is its own affair - if they decide to raise the money from innocent lay-people, then more fool them for providing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Art Thieme Date: 23 May 09 - 03:20 PM I'm left shaking my head in horror and astonishment that no good people over there or in the Chicago communities ever started a thread here at Mudcat to bring these nation-wide, and at least a half century old, persistent, and seemingly "normal" practices to our attention???!! The bright light of day on this dark episode could have helped so many children avoid a nightmarish fate. Racism exists---and we talk about it. Antisemitism exists and we talk about it. Genocide exists and we talk about it. By God, Amnesty International exists to publicise this shit. Why only now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 23 May 09 - 03:29 PM Joe, you are way, way of beam. In hte UK, and as far as I know in Ireland, there is no statute of limiatation in criminal cases. And you are missing the point that there is still a complete failure by senior clerics (not just in Irealnd) to grasp the enormity of all this. Have a look at how the new archbishop of Westminster responded. Even his fellow archbishop in Dublin was askance at such an attitude. And Nicholls is not in any sense an innocent abroad. He is highly media-savvy. The only lay people footing the bill in Ireland, Joe, are taxpayers, fewer and fewer of whom want anything to do with the church. More than half of what the Christian Brothers have coughed up to date has been in the form of land and buildings which they have handed over to the state and for which the state, in some cases, has no use. I incline to your viewpoint in only one respect: I can see little point in further humiliating people who are very old or otherwise in obviously very poor health. But for very many of the creeps, that defence will not run. Also, Joe, when you talk about the passage of time, remember - as I have repeated two or three times - many of the crimes have been admitted. The question of proof and preparing defences simply does not arise in those cases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 23 May 09 - 03:46 PM Peter, have the crimes been specifically admitted, or have they just not been denied? That could make a big difference in a Court of Law. Also, in a case like this wouldn't the defendant (or the employer) ultimately pay the costs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 23 May 09 - 04:00 PM Forget that last question, I was thinking of civil cases, not criminal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 23 May 09 - 04:09 PM Well, I don't claim to know the situation in Ireland, but I do know very well what happened in the United States. The Catholic Church in the U.S. paid some two billion dollars in settlements - the going price is now a million dollars per victim. Many of the crimes happened thirty years ago. I know many Catholic church employees who lost their jobs because the church would not afford to pay their salaries. I myself lost my job at my parish in 2005 because my pastor said he couldn't afford to pay me, so I was at least indirectly affected by all this - and I have never directly been aware of any incident of child abuse or molestation. The payment of money hasn't healed any of the victims, and the wrong people are paying the price for the crimes because the criminals don't have enough money to make the payments. I think the first priority should be to ensure that everything possible should be done to ensure that such a thing doesn't happen again - and that if it happens, that it is dealt with quickly and surely. With recent offenses, punishment should be swift and sure - and directed at those who were actually responsible. Victims should be given reasonable compensation and immediate treatment - but I'm not sure that bankrupting churches is a worthwhile response to the scandal. With regard to offenses that happened thirty or more years ago, I think there's a need to weigh the cost of prosecution and compensation, and determine whether there's any value in it. I think that vengeance and greed and hysteria have guided much of the response to the abuse scandal in the U.S. - and in the end, it the expenditure of huge sums of money hasn't done much to cure the problem. The expenditures have forced a loss of employment for many people (me included), and the closure of schools and churches and social programs. It has made the victims wealthy, but it hasn't cured them. The American bishops have changed their ways and have set up procedures that attempt to prevent future problems. I hope the same will be done in Ireland. However, the cause of the problem still isn't known. We still don't really know why people commit such crimes and how to prevent it. I think we need to approach this problem rationally and honestly, and without hysteria. That wasn't done in the U.S., and it sounds like it's not being done in Ireland. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 23 May 09 - 04:54 PM It seems to me that the Irish victims are more concerned with justice than financial compensation, but as a business the Catholic Church accumulates capital and has been doing so more efficiently, ruthlessly and I suspect for longer than any other business on the planet. They can well afford it. Maybe the Vatican would prefer to let a few 'subsidiary branches' suffer financially rather than take central responsibility - it makes good business sense I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Barry Finn Date: 23 May 09 - 07:08 PM Joe, "The payment of money hasn't healed any of the victims, and the wrong people are paying the price for the crimes because the criminals don't have enough money to make the payments". The wrong people are not paying the price, it is the church who they work or belong to paying the price, as well they should. The fist move that should be made is that the Vatican needs to make an apology, the Pope & Bishops, then offer therapy (at the churches expense, I believe this was offered in the states but don't if it was nation wide) to all victims. The offer of money in repayment is so that there is some kind of compensation & usually in the real world having to spend money is a determent to future abuse (the church will PAY attention & see that it won't cost them again) that is in part why the courts fine companies & people. The church needs to expose those involved (as they did in Boston) & their whereabouts (are they residing in a country club paid for by the church for a society of abusers?) & give up their books that holds any documentation or evidence. In the States there is a law that's used for organized crime called the RICO Act. This was used against the church after finding that the church did, as an organization, systematically shield abusers from the law & cover up crimes on purpose. I don't know how it panned out (I think it was brought by the NY AG). It matters not if the church suffers set backs, they will never suffer like their victims. If the church goes bankrupt, so be it but all victims should feel as if they can rest in peace & no matter the age of the abusers or the cost to bring them to justice, neither is an excuse to leave them alone. May the almighty sword of Justice in it's righteousness smite them down in it's all holy crusade in cleansing the house that those that sullied the name of the Lord shall know the flames of hell, first on Earth they should burn then for eternity may they slow roast with their brothers. They were the Devil Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 23 May 09 - 07:38 PM What really worries me is what they'll be getting away with in places like India or Africa where there is a more plentiful supply of potential victims and much less chance of discovery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 23 May 09 - 09:05 PM Well it is plain that like so many in the Catholic church, Joe is determined to look the other way. No-one who has followed the links in this thread could go along with Joe's glib take on the situation in Ireland. Joe looks uncomfortably close to the position of those who have said: "OK some guy made a child lick excrement off his boots, but remember the good that the guy has done." Or "Let's salute his courage for owning up" (at gunpoint). In truth Joe should be relieved to have cut his financial ties with a worldwide institution that has not only allowed, but has actively concealed, rampant paedophilic crime over many generations, in Ireland, the US, Austria, France, the UK, Australia, etc, etc. The church rightly is carrying a far greater burden of the guilt than are the individual criminals it has always sought to cherish and protect. Smokey, where specific incidents were cited in evidence, the commission has used pseudonyms for victims and perpetrators, but in most cases (all I think) the real identities are known. Don't worry, the Survivors of Child Abuse (SOCA) are not going to give in easily. As stated in a (London) Times report I linked to above, one tack will be a direct approach to the Pope. It is quite conceivable that the Pope, unlike Joe perhaps, will go along with the Archbishop of Dublin, who is nearer the problem and who wants criminal prosecutions to proceed. But then, as the Times report makes clear, the Dublin Archbish knows that worse revelations will be emerging from his own archdiocese within the next few wweeks. Obviously my main target has always been the Catholic church, but that's simply because I haven't got time to follow them all. I suppose in fairness I should say that in my view ALL religion stinks. Here's a little clip, just released, of the Serb Orthodox Church going about its Good Works. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 23 May 09 - 10:53 PM I don't think it's possible to have anything like an objective view of any religion from within it, especially Catholicism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 24 May 09 - 01:14 AM And it IS possible to have an objective view of a religion from outside? Actually, in most life situations, we can only approach objectivity, never attain it. In this issue of child molestation and abuse, it is very important to put aside our prejudices, realize that the problem is rampant all over and not merely in certain institutions, and then come up with a solution that works. Right now, all I see is finger-pointing - particularly in this thread. I hear blame, but no solutions. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 24 May 09 - 01:29 AM "And it IS possible to have an objective view of a religion from outside?" I think it's a whole lot more possible, but I agree we can only ever approach it. It's a matter of degree. I also agree that the problem is not restricted to the Catholic Church, but the enquiry which is the subject of this thread is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: goatfell Date: 24 May 09 - 02:39 AM so what you are saying is that these PEOPLE are doing this but we are not People every human being is capiable of any form of of Abuse the only difference IS WE CHOOSE NOT TO DO IT. I'M REPEATING MYSELF BECAUSE NO ONE READS THE POSTS THAT i WRITE PROPERLY |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 24 May 09 - 03:45 AM Ah, it's interesting. Here, I'm accused of "looking the other way" and yet many people (mostly conservative lay people) within the Catholic Church condemn me because I question what goes on, and don't give respect to anyone in the church unless they deserve it. I remember one guy who read me the Riot Act because I dared to criticize John Paul II for his writing style (actually, I'm far more critical of JPII than that). I've been called a "cafeteria Catholic" because I don't take everything hook, line, and sinker. Still, most of my experience in the Catholic Church has been very positive. But with eight years of seminary training and forty years of work in the Catholic Church as a volunteer, I know what's going on - and yes, I am very critical of problems within the Catholic Church, and I've spent a lot of time studying those problems and working to resolve some of them. There's an American Website called http://bishopaccountability.org/ that has a database of priests and other church employees who have been accused of child molestation. I went to school with several of those accused in Milwaukee. Some were "strange" when they were in school, and some were not. I don't know that I would have predicted that any of them would be child molesters, although I knew a few of them very well. I'm not sure anybody can predict who will commit crimes against children, and who will not. My experience of the Catholic Church in Ireland is limited, although I know dozens of Irish-born priests and nuns who work in the U.S., and I spent two weeks in Ireland and went to Mass in a different church every day that I was there. It was my responsibility to deal with the personnel in each church to make arrangements for our chaplain to celebrate Mass, so I did have significant contact with Catholic Church personnel there. My impression of the Catholic Church in Ireland was generally negative. It seemed rigid and dead, and obsequious to the clergy. I saw little of the joy and vigor and social justice concern that I've experienced in many (not all) Catholic parishes in the U.S. And I have to say that I support Barry's view - in his part of the United States (New England), the Catholic Church seems almost as repressive as it seems in Ireland. Interestingly, the Irish-born priests and nuns I know are generally a good bunch of people who do a lot of good. Despite Fionn's claims, I'm not glib about the situation of the church-run government schools in Ireland, and I certainly don't look the other way. I've read a fair amount about the subject. I didn't read the entire report, but I found the executive summary to be very worthwhile reading. I found the "recommendations" section to be excellent, particularly this:
For the State, it is important to admit that abuse of children occurred because of failures of systems and policy, of management and administration, as well as of senior personnel who were concerned with Industrial and Reformatory Schools. This admission is, however, the beginning of a process. Further steps require internal departmental analysis and understanding of how these failures came about so that steps can be taken to reduce the risk of repeating them. The Congregations (Religious Orders) need to examine how their ideals became debased by systemic abuse. They must ask themselves how they came to tolerate breaches of their own rules and, when sexual and physical abuse was discovered, how they responded to it, and to those who perpetrated it. They must examine their attitude to neglect and emotional abuse and, more generally, how the interests of the institutions and the Congregations came to be placed ahead those of the children who were in their care. An important aspect of this process of exploration, acceptance and understanding by the State and the Congregations is the acknowledgement of the fact that the system failed the children, not just that children were abused because occasional individual lapses occurred. The entire list of recommendations is excellent. I recommend that you read them and learn from them. So, my point in all this is that it does little good to seek revenge or condemnation for something that happened thirty or forty years ago (I gather from the report that most of this ended in the 1960's). The best thing we can do with this systemic atrocity is to learn from it. Some of you won't like hearing this, but it was not only the Catholic Church that is to blame for this - it is all of Irish society. The stories of these institutions have been part of Irish literature for a century, so all of this must have been common knowledge - and people accepted it as "just the way it is." I think every nation and every society is guilty of at least one systemic atrocity. In the United States, it was slavery and racism and the extermination of Native Americans. Great Britain has much to answer for its history of imperialism. Germany's atrocities are well-known. And yes, the Catholic Church IS guilty of this atrocity in Ireland, of the Spanish Inquisition, and many others. Yes, it is very important for the current citizens or members of any nation or society to acknowledge and take responsibility for these systemic atrocities that are part of their history - and to learn from them. Unfortunately, we don't want to do that. We feel much more comfortable passing the blame on to somebody else and holding ourselves blameless. I guess that's human nature. And in this thread, I hear lots of blame, and very little learning or desire for healing. Blame is futile - we need to move forward and realize that it is our responsibility to ensure that such atrocities do not happen again. And Goatfell, I think you make a good point. Too often, it's easy for us to say we're not capable of abuse or other atrocities - but we all are. It happened in Ireland, and England, and Germany, and the United States - and people said, "That's the way it is." We won't solve any problems until we acknowledge that we all are responsible. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 24 May 09 - 05:26 AM The Magdalene Laundries - Joni Mitchell - Youtube The lyrics: "I was an unmarried girl I'd just turned twenty-seven When they sent me to the sisters For the way men looked at me Branded as a jezebel I knew I was not bound for Heaven I'd be cast in shame Into the Magdalene laundries Most girls come here pregnant Some by their own fathers Bridget got that belly By her parish priest We're trying to get things white as snow All of us woe-begotten-daughters In the steaming stains Of the Magdalene laundries Prostitutes and destitutes And temptresses like me-- Fallen women-- Sentenced into dreamless drudgery ... Why do they call this heartless place Our Lady of Charity? Oh charity! These bloodless brides of Jesus If they had just once glimpsed their groom Then they'd know, and they'd drop the stones Concealed behind their rosaries They wilt the grass they walk upon They leech the light out of a room They'd like to drive us down the drain At the Magdalene laundries Peg O'Connell died today She was a cheeky girl A flirt They just stuffed her in a hole! Surely to God you'd think at least some bells should ring! One day I'm going to die here too And they'll plant me in the dirt Like some lame bulb That never blooms come any spring Not any spring No, not any spring Not any spring" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 24 May 09 - 05:30 AM A really excellent message, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Mass goer Date: 24 May 09 - 06:19 AM ALL TRADITIONAL religions are in danger of dying out as worshippers see through priests and ministers. Roman Catholic congregations are on the slide, figures show more than 2,500 worshippers lost to one parish in Dublin in just six years. Congregations for all Church of England and Roman Catholic Sunday services are dwindling and ageing fast, the vast majority of young people think for themselves, not ordered what to do from the pulpit. At the current rate of decline churchgoers will number 12% in the UK within about 60 years. The reason, filth and greed by those who cliam to set examples. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: JohnInKansas Date: 24 May 09 - 10:36 AM Re: Peter K (Fionn) - 22 May 09 - 07:46 PM An excellent and informative comment. My only objection is at: It is not reasonable, JohnInKansas, to suggest the accusations are mostly anecdotal. I think you may have missed my meaning that in this report all the descriptions of the offenses against the children are in anecdotal form to protect the identities of the victims, making it inappropriate in this report to provide more than vague identities of the offenders. I did not mean to imply that more detailed information, likely with actionable detail, is not known and available elsewhere, including quite probably in the records from which this report was compiled. I know little of the Irish situation, and have read only a few sections of this document (it is really HUGE), but it does bring to my mind some questions, with possible similarities, about a US "institution" known as "the Children's Trains" for which somewhat similar accusations have been made. In that case, several organizations were involved in essentially rounding up orphans-at-random in larger eastern cities (mainly New York?) and shipping them for placement with families in the newly settled regions further to the west. (Send them away, and someone will take them in?) Many children thus "adopted" have described their situation as essentially "slave labor," with many reports of varying kinds of abuse. In many cases there appear to be no records of what happened to many who left the east, and little in the way of verifiable records of who might have "adopted" large numbers of them. Claims in this case largely are against individual families not necessarily associated with any coherent "organization" or any specific religion. Too many children. Always a problem. .........(?) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Peter T. Date: 24 May 09 - 05:20 PM I've heard versions of the Jansenist story before, but I think that is just anti-British government propaganda. The truth is more complicated: the English language priesthood on the Continent (there was a Paris-Rome axis) was made up for hundreds of years of recusants, who were fiercely dogmatic and deeply hierarchical (as befits a secret army). I don't think it was Protestantism at fault: I think it was the history of secrecy and separation that gave it the tone that it did. I'm afraid however that it was the celibacy rule that was what made it all so toxic. Only a very tiny fraction of the populace can cope with it, people with a special monastic vocation. A huge institutional version of it is bound to fail, and the vulnerable are the nearest. To put large numbers of celibate priests and nuns together in institutions with the vulnerable and in charge of them was simply criminal, and the evidence world wide of how criminal it is is overwhelming. It was (and is) a blind, stupid, refusal to deal with human nature in a sensible, and I would say, compassionately religious way. It is completely astonishing to me that anyone could still defend it as a requirement for ministry (and not as a monastic vocation alone). yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 24 May 09 - 07:29 PM Well, I'd be a priest today it it hadn't been for the celibacy rule, so I will agree that celibacy may be part of the problem. However, the same sort of problems existed with Anglican priests, who aren't required to be celibate. Perhaps a more significant thing is that for centuries, society required people to attend church, and gave special status to the clergy. In addition, the Church was closely connected to bot government and culture in most European nations. I think that resulted in having church congregations (and clergy) that, for a great part, didn't want to be there and didn't really know what this religion thing was all about. Since religious participation is no longer required and being a clergyman is no longer a cushy job, I think it's much more likely that churches have members and leaders who really want to do what they're doing. But in days gone by, a great number of priests and nuns were unhappy, feeling trapped in a sterile, severe life. Many women who entered the convent didn't want to be teachers, but that was the only assignment available to most of them - so we ended up with a lot of Catholic nuns teaching in a job they hated. Now they choose their own ministries, and they seem to be very happy doing exactly what they want to be doing. I love to spend time in the company of modern nuns - they're some of the most joyful people you'll ever encounter. We had some nuns from a new religious order attend Mass one Sunday, wearing old-style habits. One of them proudly anounced "We are faithful nuns who wear the habit." I wanted to ask about nuns like my boss Sister Judy who has spent a lifetime serving the poor and wearing clothes she can work in and get dirty - are they saying my friend isn't a faithful nun because she was worked as a nun for fifty years and doesn't wear a habit? I held my tongue. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 24 May 09 - 08:19 PM Joe, you say you only hear blame and no solutions to the problem of Catholic child abuse - here's one, though you may find it harsh: Don't let them anywhere near children, as the risk factor is clearly unacceptable. I believe what we are hearing now from Ireland is just the tip of the iceberg, globally speaking, and I wish the victims every success in getting whatever justice they feel is necessary along with enough publicity to encourage those in other countries to speak up and do the same. I'm glad Catholicism is losing its grip in Ireland, it's screwed up far too many good people for far too long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 24 May 09 - 11:03 PM Smokey, Don't let whom anywhere near children? Adults? Believe me, all adults are likely suspects of child abuse - Male, female, married, single, rich, poor, religious, atheist. The percentages are about the same for all that group, except generally less for females. How do you predict who's going to be a child molester? When it's happening, how do you know it's going on? When Johnny tells on your brother or your father or on charming Uncle Billy, are you going to believe Johnny? Children often don't report abuse and molestation until years after it's happened. And if they do report, parents often don't understand or don't believe. And families often cover up generations of molestation and abuse. Do you want to ban families along with churches, and raise your children in a fear-filled vacuum? I don't think the problem is so bad that we need to be constantly fearful - but it IS so bad that we need to be constantly vigilant. We also need to realize that it happens everywhere, not only in churches. And we need to think clearly, not with fear - and develop honest, effective ways to detect and deal with child abuse and molestation. All we have now are our fears. We really don't have any answers or any safety for our children in any segment of society, not only in churches. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 24 May 09 - 11:25 PM Don't insult my intelligence Joe, the discussion is about child abuse by Catholics in Catholic institutions. Sadly, I don't have a solution for all child abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 24 May 09 - 11:33 PM OK, Smokey, but your logic is still lacking. You're saying that child abuse and molestation sometimes happens in churches, so we shouldn't let our children anywhere near churches. But what about all the other places where child abuse and molestation occur at about the same rate of frequency? Daycare centers? Schools? Homes? The homes of friends and relatives? Keep your children away from their uncles and fathers. You never know. Uncles and fathers are as dangerous as priests, after all. So, Smokey, why not try making a logical statement? It does happen in churches, and with distressing frequency. Perhaps as many as five percent of Catholic priests have molested a child. You will find, however, that children are abused and molested in homes at a much higher rate - because they spend more time at home, of course. But don't get comfortable and think you can protect children from abuse and molestation by keeping them away from clergymen. Most molesters and abusers aren't clergy. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Barry Finn Date: 24 May 09 - 11:41 PM Wrong Joe The Catholic Church has it set up as a refuge for Pedophiles. You couldn't find a high ratio or percentage in prison. It's not just the celibacy rules/laws that that makes it attractive a big part was the system. Where else is it advertised so blantly "Pedophile please apply"? Part of the job description begs for the attentions of a sexual predator. Work with trusting familys let us take care of your children 'in secret', give us power over your young, your needy, your misguided. Where else could you depend on your boss, employer, your whole system to hide & shelter you from the law, from the victims & their familes, from exposure? Just like in law enforcement when it shelters it's own rotten apples. Right from the start, those that seek to right the sytem are seen as& treated as upstarts or outcasts. They are told "thank you" & will deal with it but knowingly see that it's white washed & swept away. No one like someone that rocks the boat or upsets the applecart. This has been the climate for generations & it can be relied on to stay that way. It is the classic form of a system rotten to the core or top. Top heavy with those that choose to allow a culture not only to survive but to flower. If the Vatacin & Pope is not willing to make a drastic overhaul & mount an all out campain then the system is not worth saving which seems to me to be the situation. Because a system does some good it does not mean it's worthwhile keeping. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 24 May 09 - 11:46 PM Give me numbers, Barry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 24 May 09 - 11:46 PM "You're saying that child abuse and molestation sometimes happens in churches, so we shouldn't let our children anywhere near churches." No I'm not. I didn't mention churches. Did the enquiry? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 24 May 09 - 11:51 PM OK, Smokey, so what ARE you saying? That we need to keep children away from church-run Irish government schools that closed forty years ago? As I understand it, the last of these schools closed in the 1970's, but most were already closed by 1970. And Barry, the numbers I've heard are that between two and five percent of Catholic priests have molested or abused children. That's a serious problem, but it's hardly a pedophile factory. Get real, people. The problem is everywhere - and it won't go away if you put all the blame on churches, priests, and nuns. Even hockey moms can be dangerous. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 24 May 09 - 11:58 PM I've said what I'm saying Joe, sorry if you didn't understand it. If two percent of priests are child molesters, I wouldn't risk leaving my child in the company of one. It is an unacceptable level of risk. Do you understand that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 09 - 12:00 AM OK, and what percentage of men are child molesters or abusers? What percentage of fathers and grandfathers and uncles - the number is shockingly large, almost the same as the percentage of priests. Look at this:
Frontline Experts estimate there are at least four million child sexual abusers in the US, and they do not fit our stereotypes. Almost half of those guilty of incest also molest children outside the family. Many also commit adult rape-and they come from every social background. Should they be treated, punished, or both? Frontline examines a controversial Seattle, Washington, program aimed at treating child sexual abusers. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST Date: 25 May 09 - 12:17 AM And furthermore When an organization is so laden with those that are abusers & of those who knowingly are willing to allow the abusers to continue their actions unimpeded then that organization is an accomplice to the criminal acts & is therefore just another orgainized crime family. No better than La Costra Nostra or the Mafia & their acts no less hidious. Again, that calls for the criminal trial of it's head, just as if he were head of a criminal cartel. Where does the buck stop? At the top? We had a family friendmany decades ago, all he ever wanted to be was a cop. He wlived in Boston & wanted to be on the BPD but would join, he later became the Chief of the Brookline PD. Boston was so crooked at the time, it was like the movie "Serpico" everyone had to go along with the culture & then there was the "Blue Wall" that is the culture of the Catholic Church. I don't think anyone can say it happens not only in the Catholic Church, it happens everywhere. That's just not true, not on this scale. It happens on this scale only when the C. Churh has a finger in it because tha's part of it's subculture & it's excepted, those that don't like it or can't except it (for whatever reasons) get out & go elsewhere. So what's gonna change? A whitewash will be in order, money will be paid out, some victims will be satisfied & some of the abusers & accessories (like the Bishops that shipped the guilty to safe havens) will be punished. But until the Church calls for an overhaul in a major way, like allowing woman same status as men (a woman Pope would be a great start), drop the celibacy rules/laws actual screening of all it's personnel (like mandatory drug screening & criminal background checks) not much will change & like a rotten tree in time hopefully will decay & be cut down & hauled away as firewood to warm their souls in hell. Barry(had to finish up on a different computer, mine couldn't handle the blast/from/me |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 25 May 09 - 12:20 AM I'm not disagreeing with that Joe, but the enquiry, this thread, and I, are not talking about fathers and grandfathers and uncles. We aren't discussing child abuse outside the confines of Catholic institutions, that is just a red herring. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 25 May 09 - 01:26 AM Sorry JohnInKansas, I did indeed misunderstand. I must have skimmed too quickly. Thanks for explaining. Joe, your stance comes as little surprise. It was the stance of the catholic church as a whole for generations. I say "was" because some elements of the church have been forced to change attitudes. Not even the Christian Brothers would use your "Give me numbers" retort these days. You imply that there has been little or no recognition in this thread of the fact that the whole of Irish society was responsible for what went on in Ireland. Your point is not fair. For instance my own posts have been strident on the question of state culpability. But is it fair that the state is funding more than 90 per cent of the total costs? Joe, you said (pejoratively I think) that society gave priests special status. I think it might have been as fair to say that the church bullied, cajoled and brainwashed vulnerable people into giving priests that special status. It did it by, for instance, saying that Jesus wanted people to confess their most intimate sins to their priests. You are absolutely right, Joe, that there is always a risk of child abuse in the institutional environment, regardless of what organisation is in charge. Similarly much abuse goes on in families. But in both cases society is making enormous efforts to eradicate such crimes. Much progress has been made, to the extent that Barnardos Homes, among others, felt perfectly confident to slag off the Catholic church in respect of the Ryan Report and its aftermath, knowing that its own houses are in order and available for inspection. You are wrong to say that the problem is as serious in the Anglican or other denominations. That is not so. In truth the Catholic church is excpetional for its morbid fascination with control and abuse. I can honestly say I have seen nothing like it in Jewish or other Christian denominations. Keep in mind that girls were often systematically abused by nuns, a good proportion of that abuse involving sexual humiliation. When, Joe, you have finished deflecting heat from your church by pointing to other abusers whom you claim (mistakenly) to be even worse, do you ever pause to wonder whether there is something vaguely hypocrital about people who shout their Christian values from the rooftops; bedeck themselves in kitch costumes, and then achieve perverted gratification by raping the children in their flock when those children are at their most vulnerable and destitute Here's another reason why the Catholic church leads the way on paedophilic crime: on a BBCTV discussion programme yesterday a priest who is the spokesman for a dioscese in Wales said the abuse was largely caused by "homosexuality." He justified the claim by pointing out that many of the victims were teenage boys. That must have been music in the ears of the Pope and his immediate predecessor. Now think very carefully Joe: would that priest - would you - consider some of the crimes that fall outside that description to be caused by heterosexuality? Why, why, why, does the Catholic church find it necessary to take such a prurient (and wickedly wrongheaded) interest in people's sexual orientation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST Date: 25 May 09 - 01:47 AM pecentages From the John Jay study of the Catholic priesthood in the United States claims that 4.3 percent of priests between "1950 and 2002" (& that's prior to the full exposure pandemic) 5. No one knows for sure the number of abusers, victims or frequency of sexual abuse of minors in the general population. The John Jay study of the Catholic priesthood in the United States claims that 4.3 percent of priests between 1950 and 2002 were reported to have abused a minor. Reports from various dioceses ranged between 3 and 6 percent priest abusers, however, Boston admitted to 7.6 percent, New Hampshire to 8.2 percent. These self-reports are probably more accurate than that of New York that reported 1.4 percent. In 1983, 11.4 percent of the active diocesan priests in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles were sexual abusers; 4 percent of the religious priests there also abused minors. Over 75 percent of all the parishes in that archdiocese had at least one sexually abusing priest on their staffs during the period 1950-2002. 10% in Brazil In its report on the Brazilian scandal, the Italian daily Corriere della Sera pointed out that the case clearly shows that sexual abuse by priests is not a uniquely American phenomenon, as some Church organs might lead one to believe. A shocking panorama emerges from statistics of a recent Vatican investigation in Brazil. According to the same Istoé exposure, a recent inquiry found 10 percent of the country's 17,000 priests to be involved in sexual misconduct. In only three years, 200 priests were sent to psychological institutions to be "cured" of pedophilia. The report was not denied by the Vatican representative in Brasilia, who refused comment on the topic. 6% of child is the stastic of children reporting sexual abuse. That's very frightening when you see the reports that the pecentage among Catholic Preists is 6%-16% Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 09 - 01:59 AM Smokey, here's your statement: Joe, you say you only hear blame and no solutions to the problem of Catholic child abuse - here's one, though you may find it harsh: Don't let them anywhere near children, as the risk factor is clearly unacceptable. My question, again, is WHO is THEM? I take it that you mean that we should keep children away from priests, because five percent of priests are molesters. My point is that's about the same percentage of priests who molest, as is in the general population - so priests are no more a danger to children than other men are. HOWEVER it is a particularly terrible thing when a priest is a molester, because one should be able to expect better from a person who supposedly represents the teachings of Jesus Christ. The situation in the church-run government schools was a problem that became part of the system, and abuse became the rule rather than the exception. That system was shut down many years ago. It is not a current problem, although the effects of the problem will last long after the last students from those schools are dead. Problems like this happen in all institutions for children, although thankfully they usually don't become systemic. We need to know why this happens in some institutions and not in others, and we need to know what are the characteristics of the people that commit such crimes in institutions for children, so that that sort of person can be excluded from employment in such institutions. My contention is that a person is not a child molester because he or she is a priest or nun. However, it appears to me that a certain type of molester may seek out employment in institutions where they have contact with children - I would suspect that these offenders may be quite different from father/uncle/brother offenders. I was a Cub Scout leader in the 1980's, and at the time there was a huge problem with child molestation in the Scouts in the U.S. I worked with one leader in our district who was removed after he was accused of molesting children. Even before it was required, I made a practice of doing reference checks on potential leaders, and I removed one candidate from consideration after learning he had been accused of molesting a child. The Boy Scouts eventually required fingerprint and background checks on all leaders, and developed a "two-deep" system of leadership to prohibit adult leaders from being alone with children. But certain offenders are drawn to institutions like the Scouts, so keeping the problem in check is a constant struggle. As an investigator for the U.S. Government, I occasionally came across job applicants who had a history of child abuse or molestation - particularly among applicants for law enforcement positions. The problem of child molestation in the Catholic Church first became known in the late 1960's and early 1970's. When I was in the seminary in Milwaukee, I had to take the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) and answer questions about black, tarry bowel movements and other personal matters. At the time, this test was considered the "state of the art," and was supposed to be able to detect people who had psychological and sexual problems. We also were interviewed by psychiatrists after the test. A few weeks later, a number of my classmates were gone. Nothing was ever said, but it was assumed that they were removed from the seminary because they did not pass the psychological examination. At the time, it was thought that modern psychiatry could detect and cure most of these problems. In the 1970's, the U.S. Catholic Church built expensive treatment centers for priests who had psychatric, sexual, and substance abuse problems. The psychiatrists and others who developed these centers promised the bishops that they could cure priests, so that it would be safe for these priests to go back into ministry. The bishops believed them, and poured millions and millions of dollars into these treatment centers. Priests would live in these centers for six months to two years, until the experts declared them cured - and then they would be sent back to ministry. No public notice was given of the problem or treatment - nobody gives public announcement of such treatment when lay people receive it. The reports from the centers told us that they were a huge success, and I think most bishops believed their money was well-spent and that they had solved the problem. Then it reared its ugly head again at the beginning of the current decade, and we all know what a mess it has been. This time, the Catholic Church responded by punishing priests, not attempting to give them treatment. Now there are systems in place to screen seminarians and priests and church employees and volunteers. There are training programs to teach people and children how to detect child abuse and how to deal with it. All such incidents must now be reported to civil law enforcement authorities, and there are church judicial procedures in place to deal with offenders and remove them from ministry. The Catholic Church in the U.S. put in a lot of effort and spent a lot of money in the 1970's, and they thought they had solved the problem. The Church responded even more vigorously in the 2000's and spent much greater amounts of money and developed much more extensive methods of prevention. And again they think they have the problem solved. The problem isn't solved. We still don't even know WHY there is such a huge problem with child abuse and molestation. We see in many posts above that many people here believe that it is confined only to churches and to one particular denomination in particular. But we've seen only the tip of the iceberg. It's in schools, in law enforcement, in daycare centers, in athletics programs, and in Scouts and other youth activities. But it's in homes even more than it exists in institutions and organizations. The problem isn't solved, and we all need to do honest soul-searching as a society and do what it takes to bring this problem under control. I think the Irish report is a remarkable study of one aspect of the problem, but we have far more to learn. And in Ireland, molestation was only part of the problem - all students were subjected to systematic abuse that seemed to be a matter of policy in many of these institutions. -Joe Offer- By the way, Barry's statistics are from http://www.richardsipe.com/Comments/Gays_Priests_Pedophiles.html. I do question this number:
You'll find the complete John Jay report at http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/ I should give you another link. It's an article about the Irish abuse report, written by American Dominican priest Thomas Doyle, a canon lawyer and advocate for those abused by priests. Doyle served as a consultant to the Dublin archdiocese's commission on abuse by clergy. The article was published May 22 by the best-known liberal Catholic periodical in the U.S., the National Catholic Reporter. Fr. Doyle reacts to the Irish situation far more strongly than I have. I think that even the most critical posters here will agree with it. And Fr. Doyle makes a point that I agree with wholeheartedly - it is an absolute scandal that such things happen in a Catholic Church that claims to profess such high ideals of love and justice. It is true that similar things happen in other institutions, but for such things to happen on such a large scale in a church is a horrible, horrible thing. I am outraged and ashamed by these scandals. But on the other hand, I have seen so much good done by so many in the Catholic Church. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: goatfell Date: 25 May 09 - 04:40 AM thank you joe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Mass goer Date: 25 May 09 - 06:11 AM It is the younger generation that will vote with their feet. Numbers attending church are already down. The next ten years or so will see churches closing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 25 May 09 - 05:32 PM "Don't let them anywhere near children, as the risk factor is clearly unacceptable." My question, again, is WHO is THEM? What I meant by that Joe, as if you didn't know, is that the Catholic church should not, in my opinion, be allowed to run institutions in which they undertake to 'care for' or 'educate' children. That measure would prevent some further abuse occurring. I take it that you mean that we should keep children away from priests, because five percent of priests are molesters. I'm certainly going to keep mine away from priests. It's a start. My point is that's about the same percentage of priests who molest, as is in the general population - so priests are no more a danger to children than other men are. Logical fallacy. Or fatuous tripe - take your pick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joybell Date: 25 May 09 - 06:22 PM Here in Australia, during the 1940s-50s, I grew up with a sense of great relief that we weren't Catholic. It was based on the experiences of friends attending the local Catholic school. Stories told as matter-of-fact, as "normal". A few years back in the course of a discussion about childhood and school my cousin said, " ...and you know how it is when they beat you with the strap and then rub salt in the cuts." I didn't know. I was lucky and I said so. She said, "That wasn't the worst of course, but we won't talk about it. Hard times come again no more." There were small horrors as well as the big ones. It is important that we know. Joy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 09 - 07:00 PM Joe says: My point is that's about the same percentage of priests who molest, as is in the general population - so priests are no more a danger to children than other men are. Smokey says: Logical fallacy. Or fatuous tripe - take your pick. Well, maybe we should call it math. Many sources have sad that the percentage of priests who molest, is about the same as the percentage of men in the general population who molest.
and 4.3 percent of American molest then American men are just as likely to molest as American priests so If you worry about your kids around priests, then you should worry about them in the company of ALL men. That being said, it IS a travesty that such a thing should happen within a church. Catholics worldwide, both laity and clergy, are outraged by this scandal. It is the Catholic bishops who have covered up this scandal - not all of them, but a good number. American business executives cover things up, too - but Catholics should be able to expect more from their bishops. Unfortunately, there is no agreement among Catholic with regards to what caused the problem. Catholic conservatives tend to blame homosexuality, and claim that the relaxed discipline that followed Vatican II allowed homosexuals into seminaries. Catholic liberals (like myself) blame the repression and severity that has always been present in the Church, creating a culture of silence and blind obedience - not to mention turning away normal heterosexuals like myself who left the ministry because they wanted to marry and raise a family. But the conservatives use the term "homosexual conspiracy" as a favorite buzzword these days, and they think this whole molesting and abuse schedule is a "homosexual conspiracy." Joybell, I'm sure the stories you heard are correct, but they are not part of my experience of 16 years of Catholic education - including 8 years of living at school. In addition, I worked my way through college at a home for emotionally disturbed boys that was run by Franciscan nuns, and I can tell you that those boys received remarkably good care. There were far too many incidents of abuse and molestation, and that is absolutely deplorable; but there were also many Catholic institutions that were absolutely wonderful, like the ones I attended. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 25 May 09 - 07:23 PM if 4.3 percent of American priests molest and 4.3 percent of American [men] molest then American men are just as likely to molest as American priests so If you worry about your kids around priests, then you should worry about them in the company of ALL men. All American men, according to your logic :-) Even so, it's flawed logic.. For one thing, priests are known to manipulate themselves into positions where it is possible for them to abuse children. That alone raises the risk factor significantly above the 'norm'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Peter T. Date: 25 May 09 - 07:33 PM Going back a bit, I think that the Anglican numbers are substantially less (in the Anglican churches I know about) in general ministry, but the terrible things that went on in residential schools in Canada were widespread in all denominations. I have been shocked in my own research -- out of necessity -- (and Joe's numbers bear this out), at how widspread sexual abuse in among the general population. I think this is a kind of blindness -- we have not talked about the supposed "sanctity of the family" here. The people I know who were abused are so messed up. It is the longlasting insidiousness of it that I find so horrific. I also agree with Joe (as I sometimes do) that there is something about a priest that is specially troubling. But then, when I reflect, is that any more troubling than the betrayal of child by one of their own parents? The tradition to which I belong (the Buddhist tradition) has not even touched this topic. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Maryrrf Date: 25 May 09 - 07:34 PM I read through some of the report and found it very, very disturbing. The sexual abuse was only a part of it - the utter harshness and bleakness of these childrens' existence is heartbreaking and I don't understand how anyone, most especially people who professed to be dedicating themselves to God, could have tolerated or participated in such outrages. I have a theory about why child abuse became a problem in the Catholic church. I wonder if people who had socially unacceptable feelings (homosexuality, pedophilia, etc.) about their sexuality might have joined a celibate order thinking that it might solve their problem. They may have felt that if they could indeed lead a celibate lifestyle, the feelings and urges they experienced might go away. Even now, it's probably hard to go find help if you are having sexual feelings towards children - years ago there would have been no place to turn. Homosexuality was taboo. If you opened up about it to anyone you might have been afraid of being labled a degenerate or worse. So perhaps some thought the solution - the 'cure' would be total abstinence. Of course complete repression of such feelings rarely works and when the feelings do come to the surface things may be really twisted. Whatever the case, it's a real tragedy for all concerned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 09 - 09:36 PM I missed an important post from Fionn above. Let me quote a bit:
Here's another reason why the Catholic church leads the way on paedophilic crime: on a BBCTV discussion programme yesterday a priest who is the spokesman for a dioscese in Wales said the abuse was largely caused by "homosexuality." He justified the claim by pointing out that many of the victims were teenage boys. That must have been music in the ears of the Pope and his immediate predecessor. Now think very carefully Joe: would that priest - would you - consider some of the crimes that fall outside that description to be caused by heterosexuality? Why, why, why, does the Catholic church find it necessary to take such a prurient (and wickedly wrongheaded) interest in people's sexual orientation? Let me repeat a part again:
The trouble is, people like Fionn who are outside the Catholic Church lump us all together, and assume that I support all that shit. I have always called myself part of the "loyal opposition," and I have been excluded by many ultra-Catholics who condemn my dissent (interestingly, I'm generally accepted and respected by priests and nuns - many of whom are also called "dissenters.") People who "shout their Christian values from the rooftops" make me want to vomit. If they can't get dirty by working side-by-side with the poor, they don't fit my description of "Christian." I do my best to spend my time with Catholics who do the dirty work. I spend a few hours a week cleaning up unbelievably disgusting stuff because I think my cleaning contributes to the community. Here's another quote from Peter:
I'd like to be able to say that this whole mess was caused by rigid, sever ultraconservative Catholics, but I can't. I think the biggest diappointment for me was Covenant House, founded in New York in 1972 by Father Bruce Ritter. Wikipedia describes Covenant House as "the largest privately-funded childcare agency in the United States providing shelter and service to homeless and runaway youth." In 1990, it was discovered that Ritter had been abusing children for years, and he was forced to resign. Covenant House was taken over by a nun, and it has recovered and prospered. But Bruce Ritter was a very inspiring man. I heard him speak and was really moved by what he had to say - and I felt betrayed when it came out he was just another child molester. I've told the story before about how I felt that there was a "sexually charged atmosphere" when I was a second-year college student in the seminary, and it just didn't feel right to me. And the sexual charge was homosexual in nature. I don't have anything against homosexuality - but if priests and candidates for the priesthood are supposed to be celibate, then both heterosexual and homosexual priests should be celibate. The next year, we had psychological testing and interviews by psychiatrists, resulting in the dismissal of a number of my classmates; and that sexual charge dissipated (still, two of my classmates who became priests, were later charged with sex offenses - one I would have expected, one not). But here's the thing: I've never bought into that sexual hypocrisy, and I've fought against it all my life - and so have many of the Catholics I've worked with and associated with all these years. We refuse to give the Catholic Church up to the hypocrites, although at times it has felt that we have been fighting a losing battle. Still, we keep up the fight, and spend a lot of time and money doing exactly what Christians are supposed to be doing - serving those in need. Last year, I worked one day a week and donated $2,500 to programs for the needy [and I didn't contribute a penny to the Catholic Church because my pastor screwed me over and won't let me teach theology because some people think I'm too liberal - but that's another story]. Nonetheless, I'm not one of those hypocrites. If I see a priest or a nun or anybody doing something inappropriate, I speak up and tell the person to his face that he's wrong - and my mother was infamous for telling priests off, so I guess I come by it through heredity. So, yeah, I deplore all that shit, and I've done a lot more than rant about it on internet forums. But on the other hand, my Catholic faith means a lot to me, and I've had many profoundly wonderful experiences through that faith - and it pisses me off when people from the outside lump all the bad and good together and call us all perverts or claim we're covering up the offenses if we say that not all Catholics are horroble. There's good and bad in the Catholic Church, and I deplore the bad part and work hard to keep those bastards from taking my church away from me. And for that matter, why is it that I had to lose my dream job as a parish worker, partly because my church has financial problems paying for the offenses of a generation ago [and the other part because I was unacceptably liberal]? Why is it that I have to pay for the offenses of the hypocritical bastards, and then people here tell me that my only choice is to abandon my Catholic Church and turn it over to the bastards? But there's good and bad in every individual and every institution, and I think it's important that we judge each act and each individual separately, not broadly demonizing all members of any category. If I understand English correctly, "broadly demonizing all members of any category" might be an apt definition of "bigotry." I've seen enough of it around here to make me want to vomit. What's worse, I see it here from people I know and like and admire. And that's a real disillusion. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 25 May 09 - 09:58 PM It's a crying shame more of them don't think as you do Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse in Ireland From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 09 - 10:06 PM Oh, Smokey, there are lots of us - but a very small percentage of rotten apples can ruin the whole basket. For the most part, Catholics are a pretty good lot - but I see no reason why we should abandon our Catholic Church and leave it to the hypocrites and pedophiles. I intend to fight to my dying day to hang onto MY church and keep the bastards in check. and lots of good priests and nuns and lay people are fighting by my side (not too many bishops, though). -Joe- (100) |
