What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Deckman
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 11:21 AM

It's been over six years now since I started my own archive and one and a half years since it went public. If you want to view and hear it, just google "Bob Nelson Collection of Folk Music." After a break of about a year and a half, I'm just now starting to digitize more of the cassette side of the collection ... another 200 tapes. CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:38 PM

I'm looking for two people to log some of these recordings and help me refine the process. I've got around 350 hours of recordings in digital form so far and I recently got approval from the FSGW board to do the logging.

What I want is for people who will volunteer to do two things: listen to and annotate some recordings, and help me figure out the best ways to capture the results. Right now, the second is more important than the first.

I think the best way to do this is for interested people to sign up by posting something in this thread. Give me some way to contact you and I'll send you details. So, After you see the second person reply, please wait till the open call to volunteer.

You do NOT have to be an FSGW member to do this. You DO have to sign an agreement that says you won't keep or distribute the recordings and that you assign copyright to your notes to FSGW. We'll give the notes to the LoC.

The recordings will be available (some already are) through the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress. We have permission from the artists to make archival recordings, but absolutely NOT to distribute them.

Since FSGW will own the copyright to the notes, we plan to make them available to the general public and of course to the LoC. How to make them available is part of the process that we still need to define.

After a few of us work out the process a little more, I plan to request everyone to read the process and help us improve it. After that, I'll open this up for everyone interested to help with the logging.

Thanks,
Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 11:06 AM

Hi Dani,
   I'm trying to set things up so that people can work on it from anywhere. It looks like the people at the Library of Congress will be doing the cataloging. I'll be doing the digitizing. Then I'll put stuff up on the web, so people can catalog it from anywhere they have an Internet connection. Please look at archive.fsgw2.org for my current experiment. And if you can get other people to, ask them to go there also. It's a wiki, so anyone can edit it.

Thanks,

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 09:28 AM

Pat,

I sent you a PM.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 08:15 AM

Wow. WOW!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for being someone who is willing to undertake this project. Even to a non-FSGW'er, it's clear you have treasure in your hands.

I have no professional experience, but love sorting and detail-oriented organizing, archiving and (text)editing.

I'd be happy to come spend a few days at a time helping if you can imagine a way, and I can think of a few other people, too. PM if you think this might be helpful.

Dani

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 07:52 AM

Hi Dave,
   Which ones would you like to log? I'm starting my list of which tapes to do first.

   For now, you can try out the wiki and fix or let me know what things could be better.

Thanks,

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM

Pat,

What a wonderful service you are doing here. I see several recordings on the master list that I'd be happy to listen to and log once you've got them digitized. Let me know how/when to help.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:33 PM

I've transferred about a hundred of these recordings to hard drives so far. Now we need to get people to listen to them and make logs of what's in each recording.

I've put up an experimental wiki at archive.fsgw2.org. Please look at it and try logging the one recording that is there. If you notice something that you'd like to change, please create an account and change it. That, after all, is what wikis are all about.

I hope to have the real wiki up sometime in September, but that depends on people trying out this one for a while first.

Thanks,

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:27 PM

I found another 86 tapes, this time of FSGW concerts between 1992 and 2002. So, this is a grand total of 1167 items. I updated the concert inventory on the web: xorandor.com/FSGW.

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: karen k
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:24 AM

Wow! What an amazing list. I'll be happy to help with the logging of tapes whenever you are ready. What a great way to get to hear them! Good luck with this monumental task.

karen kobela

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:53 AM

I've finally gathered and counted all the tapes. Here's what I've got:

FSGW Concerts: 1964 - 1992, occasional ones after that
T.J. High School festival: 1966
WFF: 1978 - 1988, plus several of just the Puppet theater after that
Mini-Fest: 1980, 1982-1984, 2007
Getaway: 1966 - 1975, 1977 - 1978, 1981, 1984, 2003
FSGW Pick-Nick: 1965-1972

All in all, it's 1085 recordings. Gonna be a while before we get all those digitized.

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: nickp
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:03 AM

Looking at the number of old-time artists there (or even for general information on this sort of project) it might also be worth getting in touch with Ray Alden at the Field Recorders Collective

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:29 PM

Duh! I posted the inventory on my web site, but then I forgot to include the link in the previous note. Here it is:
http://xorandor.com/FSGW/ Look down at "Small tapes from trailer".

BTW, the "trailer" means a 53' long box on wheels, not a snippet of video advertising a movie. Or a piece of 1/4" mylar on the inside of a reel. I hope that being in the trailer means the tapes got baked every summer, so they won't have gotten too gummy. Time will tell...

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:21 PM

I finished the first part of the inventory of the second batch of FSGW tapes. It includes a bunch of Getaways, Pick-Nicks, Washington Folk Festivals, and Mini-Fests. It also includes what must the the forerunner of the Washington Folk Festival, which was held at Thomas Jefferson High School in 1966.

It will be a while (as in several months) to get readable copies of the set lists. Stay tuned...

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:51 PM

WOW. If there are any particular ones you want digitized sooner, you might contact Charlie Pilzer at Airshow Mastering. He does a lot of this and he's a FSGW member.

Dan

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:40 PM

Man, what a treasure!

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: open mike
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:41 PM

good luck and glad to get your progress reports...
keep us posted...and i hope you find a reel to reel

i had one from e-bay...(sorry, now burned)
perhaps you will be lucky!

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:05 PM

I met with some people at the Library of Congress today. They want the tapes, and they'll help me digitize them. Anything I don't digitize, they will. But, if they have to do it, it will likely take a few decades for them to get it done. (One person said something about an 80-year backlog...)

So the current plan is to cart all the thousand or so tapes down to the LoC sometime this summer, and then for me to check out a boxful at a time to digitize. Then I'll be looking for people to log the tapes, writing down what's on them.

Not at all certain yet that things will go according to this plan, but it's at least a plan.

Anyone have a high-end tape deck that can handle 10" reels that they can loan me for a couple of years? It would be even nicer if it had both half-track and quarter-track heads. Let me know...

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 09:59 PM

Well, I just found more tapes. About another 500 or so 10" reels. Plus another couple hundred 7" reels.

The bulk of this set is recordings from the Washington Folk Festival. And, remember what Janie said about Getaway tapes? Well, there are at least a couple dozen of them too. Plus some other things, like an interview with Piano Red.

This batch may not be in as good a shape as the first batch because they've been in a trailer pretty much since they were recorded. We'll see.

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 26 May 09 - 10:46 PM

I've finally cataloged the tapes I have. I've posted the lists on my web server at http://xorandor.com/FSGW/ (You must use this link; the page is not linked from my top level index page.)

The listings are in two PDF files, one by date, the other alphabetically.

As you look at this, please let me know if I've misspelled anyone's name.

I've also located a bunch of tapes made after 1992, but it will be a couple of weeks before I can pick them up and catalog them. I've also heard rumors of more tapes that may have survived both a fire and a flood. Or may not quite have survived. Again, I'll post more as I find them.

Thanks,

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: johnadams
Date: 25 May 09 - 10:11 AM

Hi Bob.

Yes, meta data is the 'posh' name for information about what's IN the recordings and can be in paper form or a label on a box as you describe, or included in the digital recording file. You can do that with mp3s, some WAV formats and often with CDs (as CD text).

Accumulating and managing it is a large enough task at our level of operation but consider a radio or tv company who are churning out stuff every day and it all needs 'tagging' so they can find it again quickly. (ie. where was that moment that Bush said."blah, blah blah"?)

In these situations the metadata is held on databases against a catalogue number and there are even systems which will collect it automatically using programs that differentiate between music, voice and noise, and use word recognition to accumulate key words and log them into the database. Just a dream for us as yet.

It's interesting that you have transcriptions and photos too. In an ideal world you would have time and resources to produce enhanced CDs that were audio in a CD player and datadisks in a computer, thus keeping the two lots of stuff together.

Keep up the good work!

J

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Deckman
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:32 AM

JohnAdams ... You've posted some very interesting comments ... "across the pond" as they say. I'm not familiar with the term "metadata." But reading carefully, I'm assuming that it refers to the written paper record?

I'm find very interesting "paper records" in my own collection. Foremost are the various scribblings I made on the back of the cardboard tape boxes themselves. These are proving invaluable. I've had to resort to some careful restoration work to recover various dates.

Then comes the occasional scribbled notes on yellowing paper I find inside the boxes. Some of these are almost gone, but again they are proving to be valuable.

When I reach the final stage of one particuliar tape. I always include EVERYTHING I have found: all the notes, transcriptions of the notes, photographs when available, and sometimes published obituaries.

Again, my goal is that someone, 100 years from now, can open this collection and find EVERY PIECE OF KNOWLEDGE I have about the singer and the song.

To do anything less would be to give short shrift to my teachers. Bob

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Janie
Date: 25 May 09 - 08:03 AM

Thanks for info. Pat. Somehow I had inserted FSGW Getaway Concerts into the title in my mind's eye - guess it needs glasses. And I confess, as much as I enjoy those concerts, it seemed an odd thing to send to LoC.

I don't have any special computer skills or equipment, but if this thing gets going, and I can help with cataloging or some other grunt work, I'll be glad to offer to help.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: johnadams
Date: 25 May 09 - 07:20 AM

An interesting thread that I'm observing from the UK.

With regard to copyright, the UK situation is a little better. If it can be shown that significant effort has been made to contact the contributor, then the recordings can be made available. Thus, well known people won't be ripped off and unidentified 'open mike' singers (or equivalent) can be dealt with retrospectively if they subsequently turn up.

With regard to Bob's comments on equipment, I have several original machines that were donated with their collection of tapes. However, using them is not always the best way forward. The electronics will be 'of their time' and using more modern electronics will often get more off the tape. In addition, the ability to address technical issues like head height, azimuth, etc. is quite important. I have several digital files that need doing again because the digitizer didn't address these issues. Work horses like Nagra, Revox, Studer etc. are still expensive to buy but they are the archivist's favorite, at least over here.

Pat, I'm assuming and hoping you haven't got tape issues like oxide shedding or at the extreme end of the problem scale, 'vinegar syndrome'. These things will obviously amend the methodology.

There are also issues to be address with the digital file formats which I won't go into unless someone's specifically interested.

Then there's the metadata and this is the killer!!

At Leeds University (UK) there is a large collection of recordings made by folklore students a couple of decades ago. After the degree was closed down, the paper catalogue was THROWN AWAY during a clear out rendering the collection near to useless for real research.

Any metadata that exists should be carefully preserved and when digitization takes place the metadata should be included in the digital file whenever possible.

Where metadata doesn't exist or is sparse, then the gathering of new data is a project in itself as has been suggested somewhere in the thread. I'm hoping to do it with an online system but while waiting for the opportunity to set it up, two of my chief informants have died.

With regard to who does the job, we were lucky in that the UK National Lottery coughed up the cash to do the actual digitizing. This took 18 months and was completed before I took over the archive. Had I been in at the beginning I would have insisted that the digitizing staff had the benefit of better technical training. You only want to do the job ONCE.

The digitizer noted metadata as the transfers went along but the quality of this was variable as he only knew what he knew and missed lots of potentially useful information. That part of the job now has to be completed with repeat playings. It's good to think about your strategy for optimal metadata collection.

Sorry about the length of this post. I'm done now except to say that I'm probably just about to start another rash of digitizing, working on the tapes of fiddlers and banjo players that Janet Kerr recorded in West Virginia etc. in the 1970s. This will likely turn up its own set of issues.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:53 PM

Pat ... I will take that up with you soon. Thanx, bob

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:27 PM

Hi Deckman,
   Thanks for the thoughtful answers.

   Your comment about not finding enough volunteers is right on target. I think I'm either the third or fourth person to have taken on this project. The previous person, Tom, digitized twenty or thirty concerts before moving out of the area. As for equipment, I did get the tape deck that many of the tapes were made on, and someone is cleaning / tweaking it right now. And I could probably talk FSGW into buying something if I really needed something we can't scrounge.

   I think the final repository will be the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress. At least the director told me that they really wanted them. They have good places to preserve the stuff. But they don't have any way at all to publicly disseminate stuff like this.

   It's possible that the LoC might be interested in having your stuff. If you're interested in contacting people or having me explore the possibility with them, PM me. Or email me at jpm (at) xorandor (dot) com.

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:08 PM

Hi Laurel,
   For many (most?) of these concerts, there was a contract, and the contracts did talk about recording permissions. But if any copies of any contracts still exist, I haven't been able to turn them up :-(

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:05 PM

Hi Janie,
   These are real concerts, mostly with a single artist (one band or one person, whatever). They are the monthly programs and special concerts put on by FSGW. In the early years, many were local performers, mostly because there weren't enough touring musicians. More recently, it's been pretty much exclusively touring musicians. Not at all like an open mic.

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: open mike
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:49 PM

If it was an open mike, perhaps it is even more important to have artist's permission. if it was a concert, there was probably already some sort of understanding (contract?) in place...good luck. Laurel

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 May 09 - 02:59 PM

BTW, y'all might want to see the Digital Library of Appalachia. BIG.

~S~

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Janie
Date: 24 May 09 - 02:56 PM

Not sure, Laurel, because I didn't start going to the Getaways until about 2002, but I think Pat is talking about the Saturday and Sunday evening "concerts", which are more like open mics, rather than specific artists doing a concert.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 May 09 - 02:42 PM

Interesting. Have you ever noticed that when the subject of money enters the conversation ... things usually quickly become ascorbic and self serving. bob

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: open mike
Date: 24 May 09 - 02:33 PM

suggestion...enlist the help of a college student intern
someone in music, or recording or media classes to help
for class credit.

Here is an excerpt from a form i found online
(from Penguin Productions-a film company)

Someone recommended including "in his country or any other"
and "recording with processed in use today or any other
to be invented in the future" or something similar....
The main concern from artists I recently worked with
was wanting the right to preview the recordings to make
sure that they approved of the quality or contents prior
to any reproduction of their submitted material.

Sample Music Release Form

Music Rights Agreement

Licensor: ____________________________________
Address: ____________________________________
City, State: ____________________________________

This Synchronization License Agreement ("License") is made and entered into this ______ day of ______________, by and between _______________________ ("Licensor"), representing the band __________________, and (name here), representing the "company"
_______ PRODUCTIONS.

1. Licensor grants to "company" the nonexclusive, irrevocable right, license, privilege and authority to record (on film or videotape) and use the musical compositions and recordings entitled _____________________________________________________________
for their production.

2. Licensor authorizes "company" to use or cause to be used the aforesaid musical compositions and recordings in conjunction with the aforesaid production in any manner deemed fit including, but not limited to, the purpose of advertising and said production and the right to license and distribute the aforesaid musical compositions in conjunction with said production throughout the world on any medium or forum, whether now known or hereinafter created.

3. The musical compositions and recordings licensed pursuant to this agreement shall not be distributed or separately or independently of said production.

4. Licensor hereby represents and warrants that he/she has the full legal right, power and authority to grant this license and that the performance rights to the aforesaid musical compositions and recordings are available for license through ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC.

5. Licensor warrants, represents and agrees that Licensor will obtain in writing all requisite consents and permissions of labor organizations, the copyright owners and the Artist (if applicable) whose performances are embodied in the compositions and recordings and that Licensor will pay all re-use payments, fees, royalties and other sums required to be paid for such consents and permission, in connection with Company's use of the compositions and recordings. If Company so requires, Licensor will obtain such persons and deliver to him any documents that he requires to confirm that they will not look to Company for any payments in connection with compositions and recordings in the production. Licensor will indemnify and hold "company" and its officers and directors harmless from any and all claims, liabilities, losses, damages and expenses including, without limitation, attorneys' fees and legal expenses arising from any breach of Licensors's warranties, representations or covenants under this license, or in any way resulting from or connected with Company's use of the compositions and recordings.

6. The term of this license is for the worldwide period of all copyrights in and to the musical compositions and recordings and any and all renewals or extensions thereof that Licensor may now or hereafter own or control.

7. The rights granted herein shall insure to the benefit of
"company", its licensees, successors and assigns.

8. "Co" agrees to give Licensor one (1) copy of the finished product.

9. (opetional) "Co." agrees to pay Licensor 2% (two percent) of any net profits made off of the film. Licensor may distribute this amount among band members as seen fit.

Date_______________________ Signature______________________________

Tips...

As with the cast/crew contract, be specific on what the band will receive in return for letting you use the song(s).

***DISCLAIMER*** The contract and forms on this site are SAMPLES, and may not be used for anything other than serving as a reference guide for the format of such forms. I am not a lawyer, nor do I try to be. Most of the forms on this site were copied out of Rick Schmidt's Feature Filmmaking At Used Car Prices and amended for my use. I have posted these samples on this website in hopes that other filmmakers will find them a helpful guide in creating their own legal forms.


    *****************************************

HERE IS ANOTHER FORM FROM VIDEOMAKER MAGAZINE

[SIDEBAR: Release]

In consideration of the sum of $1.00 and other good and valuable consideration, receipt of which is hereby acknowledged, I,                            being of legal age, hereby give                         (hereinafter the Videographer), and all licensees, successors, legal representatives and assigns of the Videographer, the absolute and irrevocable right and permission to use my name and to use, reproduce, edit, exhibit, project, display, copyright, publish and/or resell photographic pictures and/or moving pictures and/or videotaped images of me with or without my voice, or in which I may be included in whole or in part, and any of my possessions, including real and personal property, which photographic and/or moving pictures, videotaped images and/or possessions are photographed, taped, videotaped, and/or recorded on                , (DATE)   and thereafter, and to circulate the same in all forms and media (including, but not limited to: videotapes, audio tapes, compact discs, computer files, film, slides and photographs) for art, advertising, trade, competition of every description and/or any other lawful purpose whatsoever. I also consent to the use of any printed matter in conjunction therewith. I acknowledge that I have no interest, ownership or copyright rights in any pictures, images or recordings or in any forms or media thereof produced by the Videographer.

I hereby waive any right that I may have to inspect and/or approve the finished product or products or the editorial, advertising or printed copy or soundtrack that may be used in connection therewith and any right that I may have to control the use to which said product, products, copy and/or soundtrack may be applied.

I hereby release, discharge and agree to save harmless the Videographer, his licensees, successors, legal representatives and assigns from any liability by virtue of any blurring, distortion, alteration, optical illusion or use in composite form whether intentional or otherwise, that may occur or be produced in the making, processing, duplication, projecting or displaying of said pictures, images, or recordings and from liability for violation of any personal or proprietary right that I may have in connection with said pictures, images, or recordings and with the use thereof.

Date_____________
Individual _______________________
Witness __________________________

Videomaker does not guarantee the legal integrity of this form nor does Videomaker assume any responsibility for its use.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 May 09 - 02:20 PM

Laurel ... you raise good points. One difference between the more recent pop music and the music I collected is that I delt, almost exclusivly, with "traditional music." That is, music composed by "Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous". bob

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: open mike
Date: 24 May 09 - 02:08 PM

The lesson is..always get a signed release from artists giving
rights and permission to use any material before it is recorded.

I made audio and video recordings of performances at a folk festival
recently and it is important to work with each artist before to assure that they agree to let the organization use the material.

If it is a non-profit organization, most musicians are glad to let
their music be used to benefit the group (especially if they are paid
for their time) . It helps if the mission statement of the organ-
ization

Some sticklers, however, do not want to release their work to be included. (I often mention that the Grateful Dead were not hurt
by allowing audience members to tape shows...) Some are worried
that their music will be mis-used or "stolen" from them, and are
reluctant to agree. I hope the artists you have recorded will be
willing to be included.

several forms are available on line...does anyone have a generic
template for these rights and releases?

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 May 09 - 01:16 PM

O.K. I've pondered long enough, so here's my response to your questions. I'll first address issues raised in the thread, then I'll talk a little about my own archiving project and how I'm dealing with some of the issues:

Pat ... you're receiving a lot of good advice, as well as things to think about. "500 tapes" is a large project by anyone's standards. I'm doubtfull you'll be able to assemble enough "volunteers" to complete the project. The work involves hundreds of hours with heavy earphones clamped to your head, a sore bottom, and the spending of some money for materials, to say nothing of the equipment costs.

Then comes the whole subject of a final repository for the collection. Hopefully that place will include two things: an atmosheric room enviroment that will preserve the condition of the tapes and the CD's and the papers. And the other, and most important in my view, is the "mechanism" for public display and dissemination of the material.

Several years ago I had a discussion with Pete Seeger and Mark Moss about these issues. We all raised the same questions, but the conversation ended with no firm conclusions. To my knowledge, and I hope I can be corrected, no one organization yet is ready to step in and take on these tasks on a nationwide scale.

I suppose I should mention that I'm in the U.S.

Now then let me speak a little to my own project, where I'm at, and what I'm running into:

My collection is smaller than yours, 300 reel to reel (R/R) tapes, 400 cassete tapes, and maybe 100 vinyl recordings. I made about one third of the R/R's, Walt Robertson and Patti McGloughlin made the remaining two thirds.

With MY COLLECTION, it's going well and surprisingly fast. Except for the fact that I've burned up 4 tape recorders now, I'm making progress. As to the copywrite questions: I'm NOT sweating it. Most of the recordings I made are of folks now deceased. In the cases where they are still living I'm talking with them. I do have a couple of situations where I suspect the family survivors are living. I have been doing nationwide searches for these people. The LAST thing I want is for the grown son or daughter of a long deceased folksinger to be driving down the road and hear his Father singing on the air. That would be far to rude.

I've been at this seriously for about five months. One big frustration is that I still no NOT where I will place my collection when I'm done. I'm talking with some shakers and movers in the area toward a solution to this. I might contact my state senators about this.

My final archieve will look like this: Each artist will have archival quailty CD's of his music as recorded on my tapes. Each will have a bio written by me. Each artist will copies of all the personal photos I have. Every song in the total collection will be "cross indexed." That is, one section will have ALL the songs listed, alphabetically, with a reference to EVERY singer performing that song, or a close varient, and where to locate that song.

So Pat ... I hope this helps a little. I wish I had more concrete answers for you. Please feel free to contact me again with any questions and thought.

You know ... if we don't preserve the past ... how are we ever going to recognise the future. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:40 AM

Hi Ted,

It sure would be nice to have a much better way to disseminate relics like these. Unfortunately, it seems that with current copyright laws, there's not much hope to do this legally.

At least once the tapes make it into the Library of Congress, they will be available for researchers to listen to and study. But they won't be available to the general public to enjoy.

One small hope to make things better is the 2008 Orphan Works bill (S.2913, H.R. 5889). If this passes, then we might be able to release songs where we can't find the copyright holder. As the law currently stands, if we can't get explicit permission from the current holder of the copyright, we can't release it.

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 May 09 - 08:43 PM

I'm still pondering ... I find myself doing that a lot lately. You ask very good questions. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 May 09 - 11:24 AM

Hi PatMcGee ... Yes, I got your PM. Thanks. I'm going to ponder a thoughtful answer for most of today. I'll post to this thread when I feel I have something sensible to say! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: kendall
Date: 23 May 09 - 10:26 AM

Considering that I'll never sing again I'd sure like to have anything I did there.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 23 May 09 - 10:05 AM

Hi John Adams,
   There is a fair amount of metadata:

1) There's a listing, 1 line per concert, with date, performers, etc.

2) Each box has varying amounts of data, some having song lists, some much less.

   Right now, there doesn't seem to be a single place where all that info is. Collecting all that is certainly on my list of projects.

   (FSGW is the Folklore Society of Greater Washington. DC that is. Several of the people here are members, like Bill D.)

   Thanks for the links to the Paul Graney stuff. At least these tapes are much better tape quality. Audio quality of the few I've listened to, from the early '90s, is pretty good too.

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 23 May 09 - 09:56 AM

Hey WYSIWYG,
   I PM'ed Bob. Thanks for the suggestion.

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: GUEST,nickp (cookieless)
Date: 22 May 09 - 08:22 AM

Hi Pat, you're right, a huge undertaking. I'm trying to do the same for several hundred cassettes and so far, 5 months down, I've only done about a third. Whatever you do, good luck. Nick

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 May 09 - 02:21 AM

This is a really important question--not just a one time thing about what to do with FSGW tapes, or Bob's tapes--it's really about creating the legacy of the folk revival. If the extant recordings are properly archived and documented, and especially if they are rendered into digital form, they can be listened to, studied and enjoyed forever.

There is no mechanism to do this now--if this aging, greying, and complaining aggregation
wants to do something worthwhile, there isn't anything that I can think of that would do more for the cause of traditional/folk music than establishing a network for archiving, documenting, and disseminating these relics.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 May 09 - 11:16 PM

Didn't Deckman just organize a big reel-to-digital effort on some other stuff? I bet he'd have a lot to share-- PM him to look in here?

~S~

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 09 - 10:41 PM

I know the tapes Pat refers to. I have had a few 'circulating copies'...(i.e., lending library) copies in my care when I was FSGW (Folklore Society of Greater Washington) archivist a number of years ago.
These are/were decent reel-to-reel tapes of 'most' events in those years. I have no idea what condition they are in now, as bleeding and deterioration happen at different rates in various conditions. I know they were stored under reasonably careful conditions for many years by a competent sound engineer, but the only way to know is to check them and attempt to copy them....all the while abiding by copyrights & restrictions.
I do know that there ARE valuble resources there, and that it is a worthwhile project to preserve the performances...if competent volunteers can be found.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 21 May 09 - 09:44 PM

How's the quality? Would Smithsonian Folkways be interested?

Dan

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 21 May 09 - 09:12 PM

Is there a list of what's there - - at least performer name(s) and year?

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 21 May 09 - 09:09 PM

I was part of the concert in '69, and would be willing to pay for a copy. If there are enough of us, it might help cover some of the cost of transferring - Tom

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 21 May 09 - 08:57 PM

I'd buy it.

Dan

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 09 - 08:31 PM

Pat-

Hang in there. What you have is a potential gold mine!

And it does need to be transfered into digital media.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: johnadams
Date: 21 May 09 - 08:20 PM

Digitising this much material would be a major project. The archive which I now direct in the UK was of a similar size and took 18 months for one project worker to transfer. This was done with funding from the UK lottery.

Paul Graney Archive and again

What information comes with each tape. I'm assuming that your collection has minimal information included as to what is actually on the tapes ie. Artist, and date recorded. Maybe you have track listings? I don't know what FSGW stands for but presumably it's one venue or festival or whatever. If so, were the concerts ever reviewed in a paper or magazine? That might give clues. Otherwise your only options are to quiz people's memories and organise a sampling session.

Tapes and digitising are one issue. Metadata is always a bigger one.

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 21 May 09 - 07:18 PM

Hi Nick,
   Well, making digital copies of 500 or so tapes would take quite a while. And someone would have to buy a couple of big disk drives. Not to mention several hundred hours of someone's time to do all the work. I hoped to avoid doing that except for concerts where someone who remembered it thought it would be a good one to review for publishable material.

   And of course that just puts off the decisions of what, if anything, to publish and how to publish it. I think I'd rather make those decisions sooner than later.

   Anyone else have ideas?

Thanks,

Pat

Subject: RE: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: GUEST,nickp (cookieless)
Date: 21 May 09 - 05:31 AM

I think that whatever the long term plans, and assuming you have the technology, you should make a digital copy - preferably in WAV format rather than MP3. That way you keep you options open. I'm not sure what format the LoC would use. The odd things I've listened to have been in MP3 and therefore 'lossy' - once it's gone, it's gone.

If space becomes an issue you can convert WAV to FLAC (that's another discussion) which is 'lossless' and takes up less space. Some more recent sound packages will play FLAC direct but you'd probably want to convert them back as required.

That will give you time to consider. Have fun.

Nick

Subject: What to do with old FSGW concert tapes?
From: PatMcGee
Date: 21 May 09 - 12:01 AM

I'm sharing my dining room with a treasure trove: 17 tubs of reel-to-reel tapes of FSGW concerts, dating from the early 1960s to the early '90s. FSGW has tentatively agreed to give them to the Library of Congress, and the LoC has tentatively agreed to take them. I hope to make this happen soon.

Before the tapes get to the LoC, should I try to do something else with them?

I've talked with several people about this. Some think we should make one or more compilation CDs, maybe by theme, maybe by decade. Some think we should make smaller digital tracks and sell them through some web site. Others think that the amount of work involved, especially finding artists and negotiating permissions and royalties, would be great enough to make the whole idea a non-starter.

So, here's my basic question: Would enough people find this interesting enough to make it worth the effort?

What do I mean by 'interesting enough'? I'm not quite sure, but I know that it includes finding enough people to volunteer to do all the various parts of the work and then finding enough people to buy the product.

And the next question: If it's worth the effort, what would be the best product? Compilation CD? A bunch of CDs? A bunch of iTunes songs? Some podcasts? Something else?