In Praise of Traddies!

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:55 AM

Hmm, I can see a way to heal the divisions on this forum...

Get your dancing shoes on!*










*Poster is ashamed to confess she enjoyed this and slinks off in disgrace...

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:57 AM

Why should it be crazy? I like Michael Pretorius & Cole Porter also. & Bach & The·Beggar's·0pera. And Ris·de·Veaux·à·la·Financière and steak&kidney pud. Why not?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:01 AM

Why not indeed, M, but you know how boundary-line-enforcing people can get.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:30 AM

Yes I do, Smedley - but the trouble with such would-be boundary enforcers is that they confuse categories with boundaries ~ on the lines of, e.g., I like folk music, therefore everything I like counts as 'folk'. I, personally, don't begrudge anyone any boundary-crossing they may like to exercise ~ therefore you are NOT crazy. But I do think that confusion of categories or genres can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings ~ which is why we all get so fed up with that bloody horse!

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:33 AM

C'mere there's more:

Seven Nights Drunk and a bad headache...

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:36 AM

Oh dear, I'm having so much fun that I'm getting my links in a twist!

Seven Drunken Nights

Anyone feeling the love yet?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:01 AM

*Poster is ashamed to confess she enjoyed this and slinks off in disgrace... <<<


But...why?


What takes you six minutes, Richard...the 19 verses....or...the Cogitating?   ;0) (Sorry, couldn't resist that one)

No, that bloomin' song, rattles on and on and on..and it has the most monotonous tune! Heck, I'm going a little wobbly just thinking about it.

I far prefer Martin doing
This..... Now *that* has the WOW! Factor.

:0)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:20 AM

Cold Haily Rainy Night - Imagined Village
That's Chris Wood on lead vocals.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:21 AM

Yes, I realised that, thank you. :0)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:37 AM

"Oh..and Richard, it took They Who Must Not Be Mentioned SIX years to say anything, despite one of them watching the BBC board for years..."

Maybe that's because most professional musicians would prefer not to be drawn into public confrontations with their "fans", as it's unseemly and embarrassing. Maybe because they hoped that sending you subtle messages, such as "Please don't start banging on about our new album because we want people to have the chance to make up their own minds" might be enough to get you to pull your head in. Because they thought that if they ignored you for long enough, you might eventually go away without them having to engage with you. But you finally pushed them so far that they had to make a public statement distancing themselves from you. I should imagine there are precious few stalky fans, especially in folk, who have achieved such a peculiar distinction. You keep telling us how Special you are - so well done. You proved it. Though it's a kind of "special" that would mortify most sane people.

Intriguing that Steve and Phil have "gone over to the traddie side" simply by distancing themselves from your crazed attentions. How are you defining "traddie" in this particular context, I wonder? Just stuff and people that you don't like?

Back OT: apparently some songs are just too long and soul-destroying to be sung, or more to the point, to be listened to. Why? If you don't have the attention span to listen to long ballads, Lizzie, don't. Leave it to people who do. Just because some people like Thomas Hardy, but some people don't have the attention span and prefer comic books, does that mean no one should ever publish or read Thomas Hardy again, just in case the people who like comic books feel badly? No one is telling you to listen to or enjoy traditional music and big ballads, Lizzie. Why should you have the right tell anyone else not to?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:19 AM

Erm...shouldn't your post be in the 'Do We Think We're Better than Them' thread? It's an absolute classic illustration..

..and just so's you know, I wasn't the one who brought They Who Must Not Be Mentioned into this thread, Richard did, so go smack his bottom.

You're doing them far more damage than I ever did, not that I ever did them damage, just got people talking about their music, buying their music...and it mattered not if people were arguing, because it was those very arguments that got people going off in search of their music.

What you're doing is making them out to be utterly disloyal to their fans, right pains in the arses and men who'll do anything to get themselves into the Traddie world.

Of course, I know they're not like that at all. However, you're continuing waspish whingeing is probably causing them far more embarrassment than I ever did.

And...it was because of that very reason, the one you quoted above about how artists find it hard to enter into arguments, that I chose to stand up for them in the first place, against...er...waspish whingeing posts against them, such as the ones you used to put on the BBC.

A lot of the reason why They Who Must Not Be Mentioned came in for such stick is not because of what I used to say about them, because I only ever praised and supported them, but it was because of the way the Traddies wanted all talk of them stopped, period, removed, deleted....mainly because they loathed their music and the way in which they were opening up the folk world to the kind of people who the Traddies also loathed....

So don't come your high fallutin' self-importance with me. Thank you.

If they've had to bow and kowtow to you lot because it's the only way they'll be accepted, fair enough. It's their music, they can take it wherever they choose to...but I find it strange Joan that the ONLY reasons you will mention about Show of Hands is to use them against me.

I'd have far more respect for you if you wrote about their music, or about how they did open up the world of English folk music. I look forward to thaat day coming, soon.


Hey, you can listen to 32 verses of any song you want. I've always said that everyone's different. Personally, I loathe that particular song I mentioned above, for the reasons I mentioned above. I did NOT say that you don't have to listen to them.

Please, leave your manic obsession with me behind..and don't dare to say that I was giving SoH crazed attentions, when I rarely saw them live in the first place, haven't even bought their latest CD, never oooh and ahhhhhh about them, just their music....and am one helluva lot less obsessed over them than YOU are over me.

And now, back to the Sweetness of The Traddies...


:0)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:24 AM

Let's get this straight: MLC cites a Chris Wood vocal as Martin Carthy doing something with a WOW factor (i.e. she apparently approves of it). This wouldn't be an indication that she is at last beginning to grasp what actually occurs among musicians? That MC inspired CW (as borne out in the album Wood Wilson Carthy and that he in turn mentored the young Jim Moray (Sweet England and the common factor is Lord Bateman? No, of course not. This ballad is far too long and of such varied supranational provenance, influence and impact to have impinged on her consciousness.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:33 AM

No, I didn't say Martin was singing, did I? I said I preferred it when he did songs like that. He's PART of it, and that song is done brilliantly.

The Famous Flowers, in contrast, is utterly dreary to the point of wrist slitting...Noooooooo!    However, I'm sure you may love it, and that's fine..just not my cup of music, that's all.

Supranational Provenance?   Now there's fine Peasant Speak for you...


"Do We Think We're Better Than Them?"


Oh yes, indeedy..


Unless you're John Tams, who thinks he's better than no-one and makes songs interesting, enjoyable and believes in the 'no rules' outlook...

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:33 AM

Anyone think 'Another one bites the dust' will become traditional?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:36 AM

"If they've had to bow and kowtow to you lot because it's the only way they'll be accepted, fair enough."

Yes...because before they ever "bowed and kowtowed" to me by e-mailing me to apologise for your behaviour, or by publicly begging you to stop embarrassing them, they were having such a lot of difficulty being accepted, weren't they? Your argument doesn't hold water, Lizzie. Show of Hands were doing absolutely fine for bookings and album sales for years - long before you ever discovered them, in fact. Surely even you would agree to that. You want to believe they denounced you for careerist reasons - in fact, they denounced you because you were a pain in the arse. Your obsessiveness and insistence on shoving their music down other people's throats was embarrassing. You put more people off than you ever turned on, through your argumentative and spiteful binge-posting.


"What you're doing is making them out to be utterly disloyal to their fans"

No, Lizzie. This isn't about anyone else. It's just about you, and your obsessive behaviour.

"A lot of the reason why They Who Must Not Be Mentioned came in for such stick is not because of what I used to say about them, because I only ever praised and supported them, but it was because of the way the Traddies wanted all talk of them stopped, period, removed, deleted....mainly because they loathed their music and the way in which they were opening up the folk world to the kind of people who the Traddies also loathed..."

No, Lizzie. this is not about Show of Hands, and never really was. It is about you, and your strident and confrontational behaviour. If people want to listen to Show of Hands, good for them. If they want to listen to Martin Carthy singing Famous Flower, good for them. If people want to listen to both, hurrah. Just don't tell me what *I* ought to listen to, because it's my choice. The only person consistently and insistently setting up these things in opposition to each other, and creating conflict where none previously existed, is you.

The reason I do not write acres of squeeing fangirl drivel about Show of Hands, or any other band, is because they neither want nor need it, from me or anyone else. As I said before, I do something that is probably rather more useful to them: I book them.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:46 AM

I know 'squeeing' was a typo, but I would like to claim it as an excellent new word & a prime example of onomatoepeia (spelling??!!) in action.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:48 AM

Squeeeeesh . . .

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:51 AM

Sorry. Smedley - It IS a word!
In the Urban dictionary anyway.

D.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:54 AM

Ah well, you can't expect an old git like me to know about the speak on the street innit..........

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:55 AM

And who knew Ruth was so hip???

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:55 AM

Awww sorry to diliisusion you smedly but squee is already out there in the big bad world of web slang defined as

'A noise primarily made by an over-excited fangirl'
'The cry of the rabid fangirl (Usually a rabid anime fangirl'

It really is wonderfully onomatopoeiaic isn't it?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Ruth sans cookie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:06 AM

I'm all about the manga - in between the milikn', pet.

---

Ooooh nooooo! Guest above was me!

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:24 AM

So er...where IS this fangirl 'drivel' then? I mean am I cooing and squeeing all over the place about them, as men? Nope...I wrote on here, recently, for the first time in ages, about Arrogance, Ignorance and Greed, from a social point of view...and that is er...squeeing?

Oh, purleeeeeze!


You know, you're still fuming from when you sent me some real nasty PMs, asking if I had Tourette's, then followed it up with another PM asking me to have a cuppa tea with you. ????? When I told you where to stick your teapot, in polite terms, you got sooooo mad.

Methinks you is a little confused...


Many of Steve Knightley's songs touched many social isssues which were dear to me, so...I wrote about those songs. No problem about that. The Traddies hated that, because they, AT THE TIME, didn't want any mention of Show of Hands, doing them down at every turn, yourself included...and so a witch hunt was launched....weirdest thing, purely for liking a music you all hated..

However, you've now all seen the light, for the right, or the wrong reasons, and I'm glad that you're also realising how many people, and how much money their fans bring into festivals.

Excellent.


I'll leave you all to carry on your squeeing in peace now...

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM

Well, who'd 'a' thought it? Even this thread has been turned into a SoH thread! Not that I'm pointing fingers at anyone! :)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:32 AM

For fox sake Lizzie grow up.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM

I'll leave you all

Excellent.

In the course of your hopefully prolonged rest from squeeing, do go and investigate Flower Of Serving Men which, as I said, comes in at well under 4 minutes with an entirely different tune, and all the myriad takes on Lord Bateman from many different cultures (since you can't even work out what "provenance" means).

Have you got Tourettes, among your many other "gifts"?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:49 AM

"Not that I'm pointing fingers at anyone! :)"

'Tis Richard's fault... :0)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:59 AM

Oh, I know what Provenance is, it's a French town. ;0)


Um...something I've never understood...

WHY when I wrote about John Tams, and I used to write reams, was that OK, but if I wrote about SoH, all you Traddies went bonkers?

WHY when I wrote about Mawkin's CD was that OK too?

WHY when I wrote about the two Jim's, Moray and Causley, was that also not picked on?

WHY when I wrote about The Demon Barbers, Spiers and Boden, Barry Lister, Salsa Celtica and all the other myriad of names, were they not ridiculed in the way you chose to ridicule Show of Hands, or Seth Lakeman, both of whom were artists that Ian Anderson admitted had 'got in under the radar'..the 'radar' being that which the Traddie World had placed around 'its' music..?   


Just wonderin'............

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM

There's a Bateman set in Devon, as in:

He sailed East, and he sailed West,
Until he came to proud Torquay

Go learn it.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: the Folk Police
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:14 AM

...back to the original thread, I'd like to add my halfpennorth of praise to the traddies at the Beech singaround in Chorlton, Manchester. I've met some lovely, generous & funny people and heard some wonderful singing and lots of songs I never expected to hear in a pub less than half a mile from my home. In fact, thanks to their ceaseless encouragement (despite my own well-founded doubts about being able to carry a tune) I've polished off a song or two for this Wednesday... be very afraid.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:15 AM

Referring to Lizzie's question(s), could it be that SoH and Seth Lakeman are just a bit, erm, sorry about this....naff ?

The former might, from the most uncharitable stance imaginable, be thought of as some sort of English yokel Springsteen wannabes; and the latter let his marketing people emphasise his bone structure (and he *is* cute, in a certain stable-lad kind of way) and put him on GMTV.

Those are unkind thoughts, but there you go.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: glueman
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:28 AM

"English yokel Springsteen wannabes"

Perhaps The Wurzels sing The Clash?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:30 AM

Combine!
I wanna combine!
Combine!
A harvester of my own.......

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:37 AM

Perhaps The Wurzels sing The Clash

When's the album coming out? Put me down for one!

The zider's gorn sour,
The cows be looming in
Combine harvester's buggered
The wheat be growing thin
A cheese-making error
But I has no fear
Chewton Mendip be drowning
And I... I've run out of cheddar

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:39 AM

Yes, they are unnkind, Smedley....and they also sadden me, because it highlights the unsweetness of the Traddie way of thinking, and that is that if you dare to make money from folk music, you are seen as some kind of pariah and a campaign will be launched against you. It *did* happen to SoH, and it *did* happen to Seth too.

To see that now, the Traddies are behind SoH makes me feel a little weird, because I don't feel they're there for the right reasons. I feel they're there because Phil is doing some great work recording young tradiitional artists...and others are there purely for the fact they can keep talking about how Show of Hands have come out against me, and they LOVE them for *that* reason....alone. And that's wrong, in my book, but it doesn't surprise me one iota.

Seth Lakeman is bringing in more young people to folk music, traditional music, than any other act on the folk circuit. I know, I watched him from when he barely sold out a 100 seat theatre, to huge tour buses outside Exeter Uni's Great Hall, where the queue went right around the entire building...and the queue for last minute cancellations was almost as long.

I don't like Famous Flowers of Serving Men, and that's fine by me, but I also know that others love it. So it is with Seth and Show of Hands. Each to their own...

To say that Seth is only liked for his looks is more than a little prejudice, to be honest...It's simply the way he was born, he looks very like his father, so are you saying that Geoff Lakeman too has only got by 'because of his looks' ?   That's daft.

Seth's music appeals to as many men as it does women. That pounding, driving beat, the intensity of his fiddle playing, the songs he sings...They may be frowned upon by the Traddie World, but there really is nothing wrong in making a living from folk music..and a good living at that..

Surely you should all be behind him? Pleased for him? GLAD that your music is being opened up and that some may look deeper into traditional music, find it via folk festivals?

I don't understand why you would feel anything else....

Next folks will be screaming "Judas!" I guess..

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:43 AM

The zider's gorn sour,
The cows be looming in
Combine harvester's buggered
The wheat be growing thin
A cheese-making error
But I has no fear
Chewton Mendip be drowning
And I... I've run out of cheddar


---------------------------------------------

Bravo! Applause!!

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:48 AM

Lizzie, I am far from a hard-core Traddie. And I have no objections, on any kind of principle, to anybody making a living out of folk. But the way Seth L was marketed was bound to rile a lot of people in the folk field, because that field (or at least many corners of it) tends to define itself by its opposition to commercial success. I'm not always convinced by those viewpoints but nobody can deny they exist.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:50 AM

With absolutely no wish to get involved in mudslinging can I just point out that the title and purpose of the thread is 'In Praise of Traddies!'

Can we keep it in the spirit it was intended and, if anyone wants to damn traddies instead, would it not be better to start a seperate thread? That way, those who want to hear how good traddies are can stay here and those who want to heap scorn upon them can go to the new one.

Makes sense to me anyroads.

DeG

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: glueman
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:51 AM

"That pounding, driving beat, the intensity of his fiddle playing..."

Like D H Lawrence had never lived.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:56 AM

Hi Tam

<" Last time I saw her... CS was neither old nor grumpy and defo not a git.">

I was in no way implying any personal disrespect for Crow Sister. She always makes sense to me.

Maybe I just didn't make it clear that what I was pointing out was that this was just another thread that would encourage cliques and the endless broadsides that occur here far too often.

I apolgise to Crow Sister and to you and anyone else if they feel that my cooment was personal.

Regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:10 AM

I just figured out that the anagram of 'In praise of Traddies' is 'Parasite fried in sod'.

Wonder what it all means...

:D

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Spleen cringe
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:22 AM

"Past is dead inferior"

Discuss...

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM

I doff my cap to you Mr Cringe. You have indeed found the truth!

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

"But the way Seth L was marketed was bound to rile a lot of people in the folk field, because that field (or at least many corners of it) tends to define itself by its opposition to commercial success."


Why? WHY aren't artists 'allowed' to be commercially successful in the Traddie world?

It's nuts.

It's bitter nuts too.

I know all about the 'the music is a living thing, passed down to us to keep alive and it should never be bought, sold or commercialised' stuff, but I've never agreed with it.

The music stopped belonging to the dear ol' peasants who invented it when the Professors of Music Academia and Pedantry took it over, bound it up with *their rules and regulations* and started looking down their noses at the very people who invented the songs in the first place!

Yeesh! If Mathis Longbottom had been 'discovered' by the Victorian equivalent of Simon Call, I've no doubt his village would have been ECSTATIC for him, and that Mathias would probably have brought some of his money back to his village to help others out...

But no..the high fallutin'..er...rich and wealthy upper class whatsits got hold of the music and suddenly, this myth that the music was 'holy' was built up...

Good luck to Seth and all who sail in him...and to anyone else who takes the music out there and brings more people to it...

And quite frankly, Jim Causley is another lad with the X factor, who'll bring in loads of new people to traditional music, for he has a great charm, a lovely voice and a whacking sense of humour too, and the latter is sorely needed in the English traddie world. Crow Sister has a terrific sense of humour, btw..

Stop trying to stop the music from getting out..Let people make money from the songs and be happy for them, there is nothing wrong with it.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:38 AM

"Judas!"


Yeah, I know... :0)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:47 AM

Fits paranoid desire...

Insipid oaf arrested...

A pornstar is deified...

Disparities of a nerd...

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM

I can see where they all fit! You need to get in league with Stanley Accrington (Can't act yell nor sing) and start a thread analysis based on anagrams. How many more hidden messages are there? The truth is out there...

:D

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:55 AM

Those are the titles of four films I'd be interested in seeing.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:58 AM

Personally, I don't care how people are marketed. If they achieve commercial success and get more people into folk and traditional music, good luck to them. I have no problem whatsoever with Seth Lakeman, for example. And as a far more relevant example of commercial success, I tried booking Mumford and Son before they went orbital, but they were obviously already destined for greater things. I still think they're great now they're getting mainstream BBC radio play. Hurrah for them.

This idea that there is a group of people who are trying to keep other people from discovering folk and traditional music is something I have never experienced or encountered. The most knowledgeable people I have met on the folk scene are always keen to share their knowledge and welcome new people, in my experience. And I am eternally grateful to them.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM

Guest four posts above was me. I'll let you into a secret, Dave. I cheated... ;-(