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Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll

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GUEST,Johnmc 18 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM
Ron Davies 18 Aug 10 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,josep 19 Aug 10 - 12:11 AM
mousethief 19 Aug 10 - 12:44 AM
GUEST,Patsy 19 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Jim 13 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM
Joe_F 13 Sep 10 - 06:30 PM
Slag 14 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Gerry 19 Sep 19 - 11:35 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 20 Sep 19 - 12:36 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 20 Sep 19 - 12:45 AM
Stanron 20 Sep 19 - 01:13 AM
Gordon Jackson 20 Sep 19 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,Dtm 20 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM
Joe_F 20 Sep 19 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Gerry 21 Sep 19 - 02:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM

Bonzo asserted Pepper was pretty basic; I would cite For The Benefit of Mr Kite as an example of the originality and musical sophistication of the group. An then the lyrics, of course ! Try coming up with those chords sitting with a guitar.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:45 PM

It's true anybody who likes rock owes the Beatles a lot.   They really shook up the charts--against possible creeping Vegas-itis.   Their high-energy approach, wit, introduction of new instruments, and good harmonies were a real tonic on both sides of the Pond.

My thesis however, and it might be shared by the author of the book which is the origin of the thread, is that all of this had been accomplished before 1967.

Starting with Sgt Pepper, and continuing with some exceptions (e.g. Maxwell's Silver Hammer), they turned more and more away from music and wit, and succumbed to the temptations of twisting dials in a studio.



Paul Burke puts it wonderfully well:

"The Beatles' problem was finding out that they weren't pop musicians, they were Artists" .

That says it all.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 12:11 AM

>>Paul Whiteman, who is widely condemned for almost destroying jazz by turning it from black dance music into white art music...<<

BS. He turned it into white DANCE music. Don't you white people flatter yourselves that it was art. The only reason white people say "art" is because they can't dance.   I saw a clip of James Brown playing live in front of a white audience. He stopped the song halfway through pissed off that they were still sitting in their seats. You don't go to a James Brown show to sit in your seat. He made everybody get up. "Get off your ass! Get Up!!"

And what destroyed rocknroll was Elvis. Real rocknroll was Fats Domino & Dave Bartholomew, Lloyd Price, Percy Mayfield, Al Hibbler, Johnny Ace, Joe Turner & Pete Johnson, Todd Rhodes, Ruth Brown, Wynonie Harris, Arthur Crudup, Billy Ward & the Dominoes, Roy Brown, Little Richard, Amos Milburn, Paul Hucklebuck Williams, The Clovers, Roy Montrell, B.B. King, Bobby Blue Bland, Louis Jordan, Ray Charles, LaVern Baker, Peppermint Harris, T-Bone Walker, The Ravens, Sticks McGhee, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Young John Watson, Nolan Strong & the Diablos, Howlin' Wolf, John Lee Hooker, Muddy, Wild Bill Moore, King Porter, Tiny Bradshaw, Jimmy & Joe Liggins, Ike Turner & His Kings of Rhythm, Red Allen, Professor Longhair, Little Junior, Hank Ballad, Little Willie Littlefield, Shifty Henry, Chuck Willis, Guitar Slim, Little Willie John, Big Mama Thornton, Billy Davis, Earl Palmer, Shirley & Lee, CLyde McPhatter, Bill Doggett, Roy Milton, Lionel Hampton, etc.

THAT was rocknroll. When Alan Freed started his Moondog Radio Show in Cleveland in 1951, it was all black R&B, boogie-woogie and jump blues. It's theme song was "Blues for the Red Boy" by Todd Rhodes. They called it rocknroll as a code phrase for R&B pedaled to white kids. The phrase, although dating back to the late 10s or early 20s, was probably taken from Billy Ward & the Dominoes' "60 Minute Man."

When white artists saw the money being spent--out they came to do the same music. Elvis was at least original. Pat Boone and Georgia Gibbs were thieves. They were shameless. They were the perfect antidote to all the racial and social barriers rocknroll was smashing. Just put out the rocknroll hits redone by clean-cut white artists with all the sexuality removed (basically the same thing Paul Whiteman had done with jazz) and white kids felt safer buying those. As original and brilliant as Fat Domino was, he couldn't outsell Boone's covers of his material. Not hard to figure out when many of the white stations refused to play "race" records and would only play the white rip-off versions. Then came payola which nailed the coffin shut on rocknroll. Small labels pushing black artists--like Duke/Peacock--couldn't outpay big labels as RCA, Decca or Columbia to play their artists even though they had better artists and who mostly of not entirely black.

So you see, rocknroll is ONLY the black jump and R&B stuff and nothing else. Everything that followed called itself rocknroll but it was not. Rockabilly was country with a blues backbeat, for example. By the time the Beatles came along, it was long over.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 12:44 AM

Maybe it's because "Won't Get Fooled" has lyrics that mean something.

And 17 minutes of self-indulgent melody-free synthesizer crap.

All of the doors' output came in 1967 and later.

I think that the studio phase of the Beatles' output was a continuation of the earlier phases -- they did what they thought was fun, and when they found the whiz-bang behind-the-scenes circuitry, they found out how much fun it could be to twiddle with it. John of course, under Yoko's influence, was interested in making avante garde "art" and that ended up with dreck like Revolution 9. But he also made Revolution, which is nothing if it isn't straight unpretentious rock and roll. And hardly a pastiche of anything.

The Beatles did a hell of a lot after SPLHCB that was very straightforward and not technical jiggery-pokery. A lot of Let It Be was very down-to-earth and homey. "Two of Us" is almost folk. "Get Back" is very simple and unpretentious rock with a wry smile. I'll stand Harrison's "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", "Here Comes the Sun", and "Something" against 2/3 of anything in the same genre in 1968-1970.

Anybody who looks at post-MMT Beatles and only sees dial-twiddling has a very selective memory.

Overblown pretentious rock? 1973? Are we talking about the same 1973? The height of Jim Croce's fame. Beginnings of Bruce Springsteen's rising star (before his navel-gazing post-BitUSA phase). The height of funk, and the four-black-guys-in-satin-suits R&B sound. Elton John's early "fun" (if you will) phase. Houses of the Holy. Aerosmith's eponymous first. Piano Man (now there's a folk-structured song). Tull's Passion Play. BTO. Poco. Houses of the Holy. Doobie Brothers. Cat Stevens. Steve Miller (post-Space-Cowboy phase). ZZ Top. Steely Dan, master puncturers of pretension.

Sure there was pretentious stuff as well. ELO, Yes, Moody Blues (actually "I'm Just a Singer in a Rock and Roll Band" is one of their least pretentious songs!), Dark Side of the Moon, King Crimson, ya-da. But the mass of what you heard on the radio in those days was not overblown pretentious rock. I listened to the radio a lot in 1973. AM and FM both (back when that meant something!). And there's no way the majority of what was played was pretentious, overblown rock. That's just selective memory.

Quoting somebody from last year: Maybe it's because "Won't Get Fooled" has lyrics that mean something.

Oh dear. What a bad example. "Won't Get Fooled Again" was an overblown self-important rock "message" song interspersed with far too many minutes of totally melody-free Moog masturbation. It makes "Kashmir" look like a 2.5-minute dance record.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM

How the Beatles destroyed Rock 'n' Roll, I think is an over reaction. They were the first of a kind and it was the first time that kids could have something of their very own until they were packaged and chocolate boxed for the masses which is why they had to experiment with unique sounds and be more creative. Perhaps if they had been managed differently from the start things would have been different, or maybe the kids might not have understood their creativity at that point making them a disaster who knows? Every one in Rock has an important place, the genius of Buddy Holly or the jamming of Chuck Berry which incidently was an great influence to the early Beatles. When the Beatles split and they decided not to ever get together again it was the right thing to do there were other good if not better musical talent on the horizon so getting out while the going was good was wise. At least we can praise the good stuff and criticise the stuff that wasn't quite so hot without hating them completely.

What is killing Rock 'n' Roll is the media selling pop pap to the young, Stock, Aitken and Waterman comes to mind from a little while back. Although sleazier (matter of opinion) Pussy Cat Dolls and the Saturdays, Lady Gaga and the like are packaging sex pop to the pink wearing pop pap youth which is, no matter how they dress it up (or undress) is still pap at the end of the day.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM

When you look beyond The Beatles, you can see how far they are away from everything else, beyond The Beatles !!!!!


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:30 PM

Would that they had!


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Slag
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM

Just lightly scanned this thread. I promise I be back and give it a careful read later. At the time of the Beatles' first appearence I thought they were novel but I was not wild about them. I was into the surfing scene, loved the music, the beach, the sport everything about it. The Beatles kind of chenged the direction of everything and that I didn't like. My age and limited perception made me dump all the blame on them. They were a shaping force but so many things were going on in the early 60's, it was a tsunami of cultural upheaval and they were just a part of it. The gave popular music a new direction.

What is amazing is they were so off key most of the time and they were NOT accomplished musicians and yet look at the impact they had! A real phenomena. Yup, they killed the Elvis and 50's style rock 'n roll or rather re-ordered it and added a dynamism to it that was, until then, unimaginable. In a way they opened up the genre to reveal it full potential as a music form.

It would be interesting to do something like a genealogical tree and identify different individuals and groups who have had a profound and shaping effect on the creation and direction of the various branches of music genrea. The Moody Blues were a very powerful forces when the launched Days of Future passed. That was new and it was a synthesis with classical music and added a legitimacy to rock that invited all generations to come and have a second listen. The oldsters were beginning to realize that rock wasn't just kid-stuff. Subject for a new thread? Sounds interesting to me and sure to generate much disscussion.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 11:35 PM

The Beatles destroyed rock 'n' roll, The Weavers destroyed folk music, Whiteman destroyed jazz..., Verdi destroyed opera, Bach destroyed classical music, and don't get me started on Hildegard von Bingen!


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 12:36 AM

The book's title had a job to do and it did it well.

The subtitle how-ev-er: "An Alternative History of American Popular Music."

American pop is a monster. The bibliography would run 336+ pages. An "alternative history?" No way. Wald is a complete miss on American popular music in general and Paul Whiteman's jazz or Belafonte's calypso, in particular... by a country mile.

Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?

Between Wald & Ken Burns one might think Paul Desmond was born & raised in a sterile test tube and Paul Whiteman licked jazz off a rock somewhere.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 12:45 AM

Mobettahclicky: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 01:13 AM

GUEST,Gerry wrote: Bach destroyed classical music
That's really funny.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 09:17 AM

Difficult to destroy something before it actually exists ...


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Dtm
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM

Nobody killed R'n'R. We're still playing Chuck Berry.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 04:43 PM

https://come-to-think.dreamwidth.org/31821.html


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 02:12 AM

OK, I was mistaken. Bach destroyed baroque; it was Mozart who destroyed classical music. Bradman destroyed cricket, Phar Lap destroyed horseracing, Jesus destroyed religion, and Newton destroyed mathematics. Any questions?


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