Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 09:41 PM

"... Bessie Smith, followed by King Williams and his dogs..." -- Indianapolis Freeman, 12/18/1915

Dread

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 12:56 AM

RE: King, queen, duke, jazz, blues, ragtime, calypso – why do you think we call them record labels? Product – package – consumer…, overpriced textbooks and sheepskins being perhaps the majority component of blues & jazz consumerism for the last several decades.

I wouldn't recommend Wald, or this thread, for an understanding of Paul Whiteman's relationship with jazz. As opposed to the consumer's relationship with jazz... just to be clear.

He was the product of an upper-middle class Colorado home & music education and started recording for Victor just six years after he joined the SF Symphony.

His local popular music influences, in the interim, would have trended more towards Charles N. Daniels; Emil Breitenfeld; Grant Falkenstein; vaudeville and late-period, transitional minstrelsy.

If one does not require genre/race-specific “improvisational and emotional depth,” this will do fine for the beginnings of West Coast jazz, otherwise you gots to wait another half century for Breitenfeld 2.0 and his pal Brubeck. Alas, nada on the former subjects in Wald, or anywhere else ftm, when the subject of Whiteman's style of jazz comes around.

Falkenstein didn't try Hollywood, pretty much everybody else did. It's a common thread in the biographies. It split the 'House of Moret' in two, North-South, old-new media. Whiteman vocalist Bing Crosby went on to lead both industries in recording tech for much of his own career.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:23 PM

Whiteman had four wives and five children. His up and down swings made him a hard man to live with. His fourth wife stayed with him for 37 years, until his death. It seems it took a lot of practice before he could become one of the "family people."
He began his professional music career playing viola with the Denver and San Francisco symphony orchestras, but found that jazz would double his pay.
He brought more good musicians and vocalists into the light than any other band leader and paid them well. This is his real legacy.
He was first to hire a full-time female vocalist, Mildred Bailey.

He played the jazz most people wanted to hear and made millions. He was not a creative jazz musician, but took the rough edges off jazz and the world listened. Symphonic music remained part of his jazz music; he said, in a NY Times interview, "You'll never learn to bounce in jazz if you don't know your Bach and Beethoven."
He was a strong believer in careful arrangements, thus was disliked by those who preferred improvisization.

He became so popular that at one time he had almost 50 bands playing under his name.
Most of the above from musicianguide.com

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:03 PM

Azizi,

Oh the sleight against the intelligence of jazz musicians! Charlie Parker was quite well-read. Louis had the intelligence to change the face of American music. Don't think the Duke would have gone for that evaluation either. I think she may have seen "Young Man With A Horn" with Kirk Douglas.

Whiteman was a bully and was known to punch out band members. Also, he looked
like Oliver Hardy but not as nice a person.

There was a notable contempt by some jazz musicians for "band chicks", the early jazz groupies because some of them looked for one-nighters and looked down upon their prey or they were too easy to score. It's forgotten that many jazz musicians were family people.
Frank

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM

I'm going in to the music Library tomorrow with just that intent in mind.

While I'm there I plan to get something about the develoment of guitar styles and improvisation on other instruments through the decades. through the ages, and while I'm at it the Chick Sher Jazz Theory book.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 02:15 PM

Lox, Have you found any old discography c.1900 ?
We really have no idea of how the early N. O. and other musicians played their music.

(Band music is easier, since we have written scores and early band instruments from the Civil War period on have been preserved.)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:24 AM

LilyHunt, Mudcat discussions often weave in and out of a particular topic. So your returning us to the "main" topic of this thread is fine no matter how many other side roads we've traveled since we focused on that topic.

And-speaking of sidebar comments- I want to compliment you on your writing in your first post to this thread, especially this sentence "I like my jazz like I like my men - hot, well constructed and none too bright - so Paul Whiteman always bored me."

That said, I suppose what you wrote was a bit sexist. But I ,for one, will forgive you (not that you want or need my forgiveness).

:o)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,LilyHunt
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:55 AM

LOL Sorry, folks, didn't read far enough down to realize how far the discussion had moved on!

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,LilyHunt
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:37 AM

I like my jazz like I like my men - hot, well constructed and none too bright - so Paul Whiteman always bored me. He did help move popular jazz out of the instrumental-two verses-chorus rut but he's too cerebral, too slow and frankly too gimmicky. (That asthmatic "cha-cha" noise in Charleston still annoys me). He did apply considerable musicianship, reached out to the Gershwins and others,and coordinated one of the first big(ish) bands, but to me he's still the Backstreet Boy of jazz. Give me a nice uncomplicated Scrappy Lambert number any day!

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:52 PM

Here's additional information about Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania's Crawford Grill:

"Crawford Grill was a renowned jazz club in in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA's Hill District. Its heyday was the 1930s to 1950s.

The club was founded by Gus Greenlee, who first made his reputation as a numbers runner and racketeer, then later as the owner of the Negro League baseball team the Pittsburgh Crawfords.

Music lovers flocked to the Crawford Grill to hear Billy Eckstine, Sarah Vaughn, Erroll Garner, Dizzy Gillespie, and other legends of jazz. White musicians who played downtown venues would go uptown to "The Grill" after their gigs to jam into the night with black musicians. The Crawford Grill was a meeting spot for people of all colors who loved jazz.

The club's fourth incarnation, which re-opened in 2003 as "Crawford Grill on the Square" at Station Square, closed in early 2006.

The Crawford Grill, which is a distinct building from the "Crawford Grill on the Square", was put up for sale in November 2006."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Grill

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM

The tune "Wylie Avenue Blues" probably refers to "Wylie Avenue" in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the street where the jazz club "The Crawford Grill" was located.

Here's some information about the "Crawford Grill":

Crawford Grill:

"A center of Black social life where musicians such as Art Blakey, Mary Lou Williams, John Coltrane drew a racially mixed, international clientele. Here, Crawford Grill # 2, the second of three clubs opened 1943; was owned by William (Gus) Greenlee, later by Joseph Robinson.


Behind the Marker
William "Gus" Greenlee was a towering figure in Pittsburgh's African-American community. He owned the Pittsburgh Crawfords, the city's powerhouse Negro League baseball team, which was named after his night club, The Crawford Grill. Greenlee also controlled various nightclubs, sponsored professional boxers, and generally dominated the city's African-American sports and entertainment scene. The source of his wealth was the stuff of legend. According to local gossip, he made his money hijacking beer trucks and running an illegal gambling syndicate called a numbers racket.

Numbers bankers were important figures in the black neighborhoods of American cities. They employed dozens of numbers "runners" who picked up the bets and often financed black businessmen and women to whom white banks refused to make loans. The bankers could use their armies of numbers "runners" to bring out the vote on Election Day. This gave them clout with the white political bosses and could keep their gambling syndicates - and other businesses - protected. They also used their money to finance local sports teams, and to operate nightclubs that attracted the musicians from all over the country.

For many clubs, Pittsburgh's somewhat unusual economy was a boon. In the 1940s and 1950s, Pittsburgh's steel mills ran twenty-four hours a day, as did the city. Steel workers were shift workers, and their days off were rotated so that 'weekends' often came in the middle of the week. This was good for the local businesses, especially restaurants and nightclubs like the Crawford Grill. Workers would often go out mid-week, dressed up and looking for dinner and entertainment. The Crawford provided both.

The original Crawford Grill on Wylie Avenue in the Hill District of Pittsburgh was nearly a full city block in length. In the main room on the second floor, the audience surrounded a revolving stage and bought their drinks at a glass-topped bar. The third floor, however, was where the real action took place, for this was home to 'Club Crawford', a spot for "insiders only."

The Grill catered to a mixed clientele, as owner Keith Farris remembered in 2002.

There was never any nonsense about having great black artists come in by the back door like they did at The Cotton Club in New York. The Crawford Grill was part of the social, cultural and political landscape of Pittsburgh. Its presence was felt throughout the city. All politicians, black and white, would stop in at the Crawford Grill to have meetings and make themselves known. Not only people from Pittsburgh visited: so did Ethel Kennedy and Martin Luther King. Whenever celebrities came to town, they stopped in to the Crawford Grill.

http://explorepahistory.com/hmarker.php?markerId=452

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:33 PM

I wasn't aware but I will definitely be checking it out.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

Because this thread became a general discussion about jazz and his roots I would like to mention The Halfway House Orchestra.
The Halfway House was about mid-way between New Orleans and Lake Pontchartrain.
Most prominent members of this great group have been leader Albert Brunies (cnt),Charlie Cordella (clt. and some saxes) and somewhat later Sidney Arodin (clt),accompanied by a fine rhythm section.
Even today, it's a real pleasure to listen to tracks like "Squeeze me", "Maple Leaf Rag", "Snookum", "Since you're gone", "Wylie Avenue Blues" and many others.
Albert (the brother of George) was a wonderful cornet player!

Anybody aware of this formation?

Manfred

Manfred

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM

The reason for the Jazz boom in Chicago was the 'Great Migration' of workers from south to north as workers looked for better conditions, terms and status.

Added to this is the fact that Chicago was where the alcohol importers operated from during prohibition - so there was lots of 'work' available in the alcohol 'industry' including a strong subculture of bars etc who employed musicians. Jazz was the preferred tipple of the young.

Venues got bigger and dances filled bigger halls, so in the absence of large PA's the Big Band was born.

This was the next stage or 'mountain top' of Jazz after dixie etc.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:49 AM

The reason jazz started in New Orleans is because it was supported economically there by
the whorehouse industry. Also the marching band was employed for municipal functions.

After the Navy closed down Storyville, jazz moved to Chicago and ultimately to the other big cities.

Jazz (jass) is also a euphemism (like rock) that would be applied to the red light district of
Storyville.

(Jazz is an acceptable four-letter word).

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:57 AM

Manfred, I look forward to reading information that folks share about jazz. That does not mean that I accept everything that I read. And I very much prefer opinions given in the interest of adding to knowledge about a particular subject to put downs directed towards named and unnamed persons given for Lord only knows what reason or reasons.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that-on this thread anyway.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:51 AM

It seems to me that knowlegde about blues, jazz and other things is absolutely relative.
I would like to say that you are an expert compared to others believing that they are.
That's a compliment because it's always interesting to read about your contributions.

Manfred

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:51 PM

Oh and Manfred, I also meant to mention, that much of what I know about jazz and blues and a host of other subjects is through my relatively new friend Google.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

Hello, Manfred.

I wrote that I know very little about jazz because I know very little about jazz. And I i wrote that I know very little about blues (on this2005 thread) because I knew very little about blues music. I know more about blues now than I knew in 2005, but I still don't consider myself very knowledgeable about that music genre.

As I mentioned on this thread or on another thread, I grew up mostly listening to Rock n' Roll (which later became R&B or Soul music) and religious music (mostly gospel music, spirituals, and music from church hymnals). I was introduced to jazz mostly through my now ex-husband who was a jazz musician. But although I hear his group play and heard some jazz records during our years of marriage, that doesn't mean that I know about jazz.

I see nothing wrong with starting music threads such as these. I certainly learn from such threads and I believe other Mudcat members and guests find them to be interested and informative.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Dear Mrs.Azizi. In your second contribution (see above) you made the statement: "I admit right of the bat that I know very little about jazz music."
Sounds very funny when reading all of your contributions. I do remember that you did the same trick with blues music some time ago.
Why do you do so? To put a stimulus to mudcatters?
I believe they don't need such understatement to make a reply.

Have a good time,

Manfred

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:27 PM

Its a simple matter of chronology.

If the earliest known performers in each city were doing the same thing at around the same time then that wouldn't support a view that it spread from one source.

If the earliest known performers were all based in new orleans and jazz in other cities only appeared some time afterwards then it is possible that it came from there and spread - but then you also need to ask who brought it ...


Lets face it - in all probability it will be much more complex than that.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:25 PM

Atlantic City is a forgotton place of early jazz development.
Eubie Blake, James Johnson (stride pianist and prolific composer), Charles Roberts, Willie (the Lion) Smith, starting about 1906. And Harlem, where black nightclubs were strong at the turn of the century.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:15 PM

Many discussions. Many Books. But little by those who were there in the early days.

Here is a list to keep you going for a few months-
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/cja/jazzbib.html

I want that one on Lil Hardin Armstrong by James Dickerson, "Just for a Thrill."

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:28 PM

Well I don't know which link to choose - none are in depth enough to add to the discussion in any meaningful way - but the view is repeated on various websites that jazz appeared in other locations simultaneously.

There are other websites which credit New Orleans with being the birthplace of Jazz.

I have been meaning to go to the library to do some proper research on it.

I remain open minded and look forward to discovering something i didn't know before.

I'll probably do it on tuesday.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:15 PM

Poppagator,

I don't know if you are right or wrong for sure, but I don't know how mulling helps.

Another 5 second google search throws this up:


St Louis Jazz from 1895

I'll do the next link in my next post as I seem unable to post more than one link at a time without my post disappearing.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM

Certainly what developed in New Orleans is one of the foundations of jazz.
Don't know what they called it at the time, probably just music. The word came later.

The contributions of ragtime and other musicians of the same generation can't be divorced from jazz origins.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:13 PM

I've continued to mull over the question of whether jazz evolved all over the slaveholding south, or specifically and exclusively in New Orleans.

I've come to the conclusion that the blues, and ragtime, and American "roots" music in general, did indeed develop all over the place, wherever African-Americans and European-Americans made music together, or even influenced each other's music indirectly.

Jazz, however ~ the original group-improvisation genre first known as jass/jazz and now recognized as "trad-jazz" and/or "dixieland" ~ DID develop in New Orleans.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:25 PM

Basso continuo players had to be good enough to play the chords in the right inversions but it isn't quite the same thing as choosing an individual line within the harmony.

That would be more akin to just having the melody and the basso continuo written out and SATB all having to figure out their own lines which was not something that happened.


Also, there were many pieces with passages marked for improvisation, but usually the 'improvised' parts were themselves prewritten so there wasn't the same sense of free improvisation that one gets in Jazz.

The ethos of instrumentalists taking turns to improvise their own spontaneous and personally expressive solo, and then fitting in as appropriate ingredients within the supporting harmony is derived from west african traditions.

I have spent time in Ghana where I had the great privilege of playing with traditional drummers and learning a lot about the local music. I attended a couple of community events, including a funeral, where the drummers beat out a complex compound rhythm full of syncopation and the singers sang with the same kind of ethos.

The experience made it very clear where that aspect of the blues and Jazz came from.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:12 PM

Many early opera, mass and masque composers left portions unwritten, those not essential to their conception, to be filled in by the orchestra members, with instruction "and continuo." The musicians had to be good improvisors.
These gaps were filled in as Lox describes, often by harpsichord or clavecin and/or other instruments complimentary to the action, mood or story.

(Not the same thing, but brings to mind the piano players who accompanied early silent movies. And often how a small-town church organist eked out a living.)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM

The answers are in the music.

And here's something that will send shivers down your spine.

New Orleans Jazz Funeral

I hope My funeral is one tenth as moving as this!!!

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM

The pianist Louis Moreau Gottschalk describes watching the drumming in Congo Square in New Orleans in the 1860s or '70s.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: meself
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:12 AM

"slaves throughout the English-speaking South were absolutley prohibited from gathering to drum and dance in their own tradition"

To say that it was "absolutely" prohibited implies that it didn't happen - according to a book I once read called The Peculiar Institution, there was a great deal of sneaking off at night to surreptitious gatherings with slaves from other plantations, where drumming and dancing indeed took place. More generally, this book described an active underground, subversive African-American culture that developed in the South during the slavery era.

Having to do with New Orleans, though, I read somewhere not too long ago that there was a customary and tolerated gathering of slaves and free African-Americans at a certain square on Sunday afternoons, with music and dance for entertainment and amusement.

It should be remembered as well that there has long been a great deal of mobility of European and North American musicians, entertainers, and people generally, such that a musical innovation that comes about in New Orleans might not take very long to reach other centers - and backwaters. There was, apparently, a touring jazz band that played in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in the early 1900s. Two African-Canadian brothers moved from Toronto to - Memphis? - and opened up the Maple Leaf Club at which Scott Joplin would play, and after which he named his famous rag. During the slavery era, there were slaves such as Josiah Henson (not a musician, but he left a written account) whose adventures and misadventures would take them all over the eastern U.S., from Ohio to New Orleans, and beyond. So - influences all over the place, no doubt.

Okay - that's just some midnight rambling.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:01 AM

Oops - wrong button,

so to clarify the above post, let us consider a chord sequence of B7 to E7 to Amaj7.

An accompanist on trombone might, in order to take the smoothest line, move from the 7th of B7 (A) to the 3rd of E7 (G#) and end on the 7th of Amaj7 (G#).

As you can see, he has only moved downwards by a semitone in the chord progression.

When you listen to New Orleans Jazz you hear a lot of chromatic movement of this sort in the accompanying instruments. The bass is usually much more lively.

The counterpoint can get more complex, but the basic idea is as shown in the example above.

To do this kind of harmony, you need to know how chords conect to each other, you have to know which notes the root, the 3rd and the 7th of any given chord are and you have to be looking ahead at the next chord and choosing which note to move to next so as to keep the texture smooth.

It should also be clarified that this knowledge and approach to harmony, though generally associated with bach was not created by him. It developed over a very long time, beginning in medieval times and growing in complexity through rennaissance and baroque times.

So to suggest that it just happened by accident one day in new orleans without prior knowledge would be like saying that einstein just happened to come up with the theory of relativity one day. The truth is that in order to do so he would have had to come up with all of Newtons and Curies discoveries all by himself first too.

We know this didn't happen. He knew and understood the work that went before him and developed upon it in new and exciting ways.

And thats what happened in America. Counterpoint became a group endevour rather than a composers challenge.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:38 AM

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:19 AM

Yes Lillian Armstrong is revered by those who are aware of her as being an essential contributor to the growth of Jazz.


A quick aside on the subject of knowledge of european chord theory etc ...

this did not stop short of reading and imrovisational ability etc, but was also an essential factor for any brass section, whether marching or otherwise.

When these groups played, the horns functioned as contrapuntal choirs of instruments.

They would divide up the parts between them, and with a full understanding of counterpoint and polyphony and the principle (from Bach) of smooth harmonic lines with a minimum of movement, they would move through the chords.

Often, young musicians would be taken under the wing of older more experienced ones and they learned these principles on the job, however, the principles themselves are straight out of the bach 'rule' book.

The difference was that their parts weren't written out as they would have been in bachs time.

It is in this area that Jazz truly comes into its own and is defined as a unique and special artform. This was where improvisation was at its most expert as comping instruments improvised their accompaniment and unlike the soloist, there was no room for error or the nature and function of each chord would have been utterly undermined.

So while Bach wrote his chorals out and singers sang the lines through the chords, brass sections would find their way through the lines based on what they knew the chords to be. This remains true today in Jazz just as it did back then.

To do it you have to know your stuff - there is no two ways about it.

This is why Jazz music, when written, except in special cases, will give you the melody and chord symbols.

This format of written music is known as that 'fake' sheet. Often books of Jazz music are called 'fake books'.

This is because it was up to the musicians to colour it in/fill in the gaps themselves. In other words they 'faked' the music.

Knowing how to find, choose and spontaneously play sympathetic harmonic counterpoint based on such limited information is a very specific skill.

It is in this context that you can see how the marriage of european and african traditions is not just skin deep but runs right to the heart of jazz. you can also see that, like a mixed race child, the two ingredients do not make up a combination, with some aspects white and some black, but rather they have created a singular entity that is unique and exists in its own right with its own characteristics and its own identity.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM

Lil Hardin not only could read and play music but, when married to Louis Armstrong in Chicago and playing in the band with him, persuaded him to go it on his own. This started one of the most important careers in jazz.
A superb pianist!

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM

Here's the link to the source of the above quote.


I'm not saying its authoritative, but it does support what I've been told and should hopefully be a useful first point for anyone wishing to look into what happened in kansas etc

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:12 PM

Did a quick google search and the very first website I came across echoes what my Jazz mentor has told me.

I typed in "origins of Jazz" and I think it was the third entry down on the list.

Almost straight away (I didn't read any further) it says:

"The origins of Jazz are attributed to turn of the 20th century New Orleans, although this unique, artistic medium occurred almost simultaneously in other North American areas like Kansas City, Saint Louis and Chicago. Traits carried from West African black folk music developed in the Americas, joined with European popular and light classical music of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, became the syncopated rhythms of Ragtime and minor chord voicings characteristic of the Blues."

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:42 PM

You forgot to mention Lil Hardin.

She was a well-trained musician. Good enough to work in a music store.

Customers looking to buy sheet music of the "latest song" would ask Ms. Hardin to play it on the piano. Perhaps even sing. Sightreading music you have never heard before is quite an art.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:23 PM

The 'Creoles of color' playing in New Orleans could read music; Bolden, St. Cyr, Keppard, Dutrey, etc. Lox names some of the more recent important jazz musicians, but even in the beginning, the blues-ragtime-bandsmen would have been aware of a broad range of musical practice. Like all good improvisors, they went beyond the printed page, as did many important European players and composers from at least the baroque period on.

What pianist doesn't know Mozart's 12 variations on "Twinkle, Twinkle,..." (Ah! vous dirais-je, Maman). A common concert trick is to take several tunes named by the audience and improvise.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM

To expand on the chet baker point, the point is that he was known among his contemporary's for 'just knowing' what to do without apparently having to practice.

blah ..

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM

"Elijah Wald isn't insulting anyone - his title draws an ironic parallel between the influence that Whiteman and The Beatles had--some of you are just looking for things to get upset about--"

Perhaps i should add my own disclaimer - that I haven't read the comments of Elijah Wolds and am therefore not really in a position to criticize him.

As for getting upset, no that is not the case.

My comment still stands that any suggestion that African Americans stumbled upon jazz in ignorance of the chord theories that underpin it would be insulting to them as it would be to deny them the credit they deserve for consciously developing this theory in their own unique way.

Any idea that Black people have a primitive affinity with these musical styles and that white people only understand them in an academic way would also be insulting to musicians of both racial groups as it would perpetuate unfounded stereotypes of Black and white musicians.

People like John Coltrane and thelonious monk had a deep academic knowledge and understanding of the principles of music and an original way of manipulating this knowledge that only musicians so informed could devise.

They may not have been part of academic institution but their ideas and discoveries are taught in academic institutions and most musicians would find them hard to understand.

Likewise, Someone like chet baker who learned by listening intently to the music of his heroes was as 'natural' a jazz musician as any who came before or after him black or white. He was renouned for having extremely sensitive ears and an extremely quick creative mind so that complex changes did not leave him stranded, but instead he could improvise beautiful over just about anything.

Any suggestion about how one set of humans are 'just different' to another set of humans is unfounded and is indeed insulting to both groups.

The idea of 'natural' uneducated blacks and educated but soulless whites is a projection onto Jazz by those with their own agenda and in all probability who can't play it, as anyone who does play jazz knows how hard it is and respects anyone elses ability to play it too.


On the subject of my theory,

I don't have any one specific theory.

The question of the origins of Jazz being based in the crossover of musical forms on slave plantations is seperate from the view concerning Jazz emerging all over, the latter of which I was told by a friend and mentor - an authority on Jazz in his 80's who has played with just about every Jazz great from Louis down to the current day.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM

Here is a great picture of King Oliver and the band's...

                                                                        classic lineup

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:37 PM

The fusion of the elements into jazz can be argued long into the night.
I would rather listen.

Some good work here by King Oliver with Lil Hardin Armstrong, Louis Armstrong, Baby Dodds, Johnny Dodds, Honore Dutrey, Johnny St. Cyr and others. A dozen classics from the Chicago of 1923.

Creole Jazz Band

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM

Poppagator - I don't think you needed to have even 24 seconds of doubt. There's no doubt in my mind that New Orleans was uniquely placed at a moment in history to give birth to jazz. As you say, the mix of peoples and musical traditions was the "soup" from which the music emerged, and I can't think of any other place at that time where that soup was bubbling away. :-)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM

I've been thinking about Lox's theory, posted yesterday, that jazz appeared simultaneously at various planation homes around the south, thanks to house-servant slaves being trained in the European musical tradition.

It's a very plausible theory. Maybe I've been wrong all along in believing that my adopted hometown, New Orleans, was the true, one-and-only, "birthplace" of jazz.

On second thought, however, I feel pretty sure that New Orleans provided an absolutely unique environment to act as crucible to a new musical genre:

For several generations, while slaves throughout the English-speaking South were absolutley prohibited from gathering to drum and dance in their own tradition (for fear that secret, coded communication via drum leading to revolt/uprising), New Orleans provided a meeting place (Congo Square) where slaves and free people of color could gather every Sunday for free musical expression. Some participants, obviously, would be among the relatively privileged few to have experienced formal Wesstern musical education; many others would be playing strictly "by ear," or instinctively. Also, some of the folks would be more recently arrived from Africa, or from Hispaniola, than others. All in all, a very fertile situation from which new forms of expression to emerge.

Also in New Orleans, there was a large and prominent community of Creoles, or what we would today call "biracial" people. In the English-speaking south, the "one-sixteenth" rule held sway from the very beginnning of the peculiar institution of slavery ~ a person with ANY African ancestry was subject to enslavement. Under French and Spanish rule, New Orleans saw the emergence of a middle-class community of mixed-race people, many of whom became highly educated in the European tradition. And, it is a well-established historical fact that many of the musicians involved in the evoltion of early jazz were indeed Creoles from this community.

So, yeah, after about 24 hours of doubt, I am back to believing that jazz was indeed created right here in the Crescent City.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:51 AM

Azizi,

According to Jelly Roll Morton "Funky Butt" was the name of the cafe where Buddy Bolden played. It's mentioned in the Winin' Boy Blues by Morton.

"Funky Butt, Funky Butt, take it away!"
Also "I thought I heard Frankie Dusen shout (trombone player)
Open up the window, let the bad air out."

Yes, lots of opinions and like every other criticism, everyone's an authority.
Jazz is always going to be hotly contested just like folk music. I think it's important
to share views also.

It's tragic but King Oliver died unceremoniously in the South without anyone knowing much about it. I think the last part of his life was as a pool hall attendant. (Not sure).

The Hot Five and the Hot Seven are classic bands from the era thanks to Oliver.
I think the trombone solo on West End Blues shows Kid Ory as a tasteful and moving
player. He played simply and emotionally very much like a true folksinger.

Johnny Dodds is also a remarkable early trad jazz clarinetist whose solos are trenchant,
imaginative and filled with emotion.

Trad jazz in the New Orleans style is quite unique and not many people are conversant with the idiom. Like folkmusic, ya' gotta' have been around it live to get it. I was fortunate to jam (as a kid, I was a bad trombone player) with Zutty Singleton. It's a feel like folkmusic that you need to recognize.

Frank

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:18 AM

Here are some more links to YouTube videos of vintage recordings:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMAtL7n_-rc&feature=related

Maple Leaf Rag Played by Scott Joplin

"Maple leaf Rag, recorded on Pianola Roll actually played by Scott Joplin"

**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrc6AK6AKA0

Black Bottom Stomp - Jelly Roll Morton

"Black Bottom Stomp - Jelly Roll Morton (1926) original Victor 78 rpm record"

**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQWWA3jnCPQ

Jelly Roll Morton and his Red Hot Peppers - Blue Blood Blues (1930)

"Ferdinand "Jelly Roll" Morton (Sept.20,1885 or Oct.20,1890 - July 10,1941) was an American ragtime pianist, bandleader and composer.

Widely recognized as a pivotal figure in early jazz, Morton claimed, in self-promotional hyperbole, to have invented jazz outright in 1902. Critic Scott Yanow writes that "Morton did himself a lot of harm posthumously by exaggerating his worth (yet) Morton's accomplishments as an early innovator are so vast that he did not really need to stretch the truth." Morton was the first serious composer of jazz, naming and popularizing the so-called "Spanish tinge" of exotic rhythms and penning such standards as "Wolverine Blues", "Black Bottom Stomp", and "I Thought I Heard Buddy Bolden Say"."

**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-HJI464CVs

King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band - Dippermouth Blues (Sugarfoot Stomp) 1923

"Joe "King" Oliver (Dec.19,1885 - April 10,1938) was a jazz cornet player and bandleader.

He was particularly noted for his playing style, pioneering the use of mutes. Also a notable composer, he wrote many tunes still played regularly, including "Dippermouth Blues", "Sweet Like This", "Canal Street Blues", and "Doctor Jazz". He was the mentor and teacher of Louis Armstrong. Two of Armstrong's most famous recordings, "West End Blues" and "Weather Bird", were Oliver compositions. His influence was such that Armstrong claimed, "if it had not been for Joe Oliver, Jazz would not be what it is today"...

-snip-

[Click on that link to read the rest of this long, informative summary.]

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:26 AM

Here are links to four Paul Whiteman recordings (with photo slides) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsufN4zOkFM

Paul Whiteman with Bix: Lonely Melody

"Here is "Lonely Melody" (Paul Whiteman & His Orchestra, with Bix Beiderbecke, cornet; Victor 21214; recorded 1/4/28), as played back on my Victor VE8-30X with tooled leather panels (phonograph dating to 1927). It has a brass Orthophonic soundbox."

**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyM6kg10UYE&feature=related

"China Boy" by Paul Whiteman

"China Boy" was recorded by the Paul Whiteman Orchestra on May 3, 1929. Cornetist Bix Beiderbecke had been ill for some time and had just recently rejoined the orchestra when this record was made. During this time, Bix was playing most of his solos into a felt hat, which masked his weakened tone. Although Bix's solo in "China Boy" is only 16 bars long, it is considered by many to be one of the finest solos he ever recorded.

[Additional comments are in included in this summary about the record player used to play this vintage record]

**
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4V3ZhGHZA4

Shaking The Blues Away by Paul Whiteman and his Orch.

"Shaking The Blues Away" recorded by Paul Whiteman and his Orchestra. This great number was orchestrated by composer Ferde Grofe, who was associated with the Whiteman Orchestra as both an arranger and composer. Whiteman's orchestra, which was much larger than a standard dance orchestra, gave Grofe a lot to work with in terms of tone and color, and he used it all to great effect."

[Additional comments are in included in this summary about the record player used to play this vintage record]

**
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRBEOP9zO1k

A Picture of Me Without You - Paul Whiteman & His Orchestra With Ramona & Ken Darby

"A Picture of Me Without You - Paul Whiteman & His Orchestra With Ramona & Ken Darby, featured in the movie Paper Moon."

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:07 AM

I can't find the King Oliver recording that you mentioned on YouTube, but here are links to four other King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band recordings (with photo slides) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvw0a_2uezE

High Society - King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band 1923

"In the second recording session of the "Jazz King" of Chicago Joe Oliver and his Creole Jazz Band recorded in Chicago as well. This was done on June 24 1923.
In this famous band we hear Joe Oliver and Louis Armstrong on cornets, Johnny Dodds on Clarinet, Lil Hardin on piano, Bud Scott on banjo and Baby Dodds on drums".

**
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i2xo-M2xKE&feature=related

Mabel's Dream -- King Oliver's Jazz Band 1923

"This a track from the famous Oliver/Armstrong recordings. The band plays Mabel's Dream. A famous movie star in those years was Mabel Normand.
Could this composition and it's name have had anything to do with her popularity? Maybe, or maybe not. Who is there still to ask?" ...

**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFcfIoyOaxQ&feature=related

Snag It -King Oliver

"Here is another classic from my archives. I had forgotten that I had it, and only found it today when searching for something else!...

It is far from perfect, but what can one expect when it was recorded 86 years ago and has been re-copied at least twice in my disorganised archive?"

**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYa9iRNX7dU&NR=1

KING OLIVER

No title other than King Oliver's name was given for the 9:22 minute YouTube sound recording of several songs. Also, no summary statement was provided by the poster and there are no photos except for a cover shot of the record album with the words "King Oliver-Frankie and Johnny 1929-1930". I'm assuming that the music that is featured in this YouTube sound video are from that album.