English Folk - Peasants to Professors

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 01:27 PM

Do you mean the 'vested interest' of somebody who desperately wants there to be no definition of 'folk' so they are able to describe the stuff the write as 'folk' Now why do I doubt that's what you mean?
Now about this 'egotistical and narcissistic bitching....'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

And explain what sort of "criticism" you mean.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM

Explain 'vested' interests
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 12:35 PM

You didn't answer my points Jim, especially what other serious analysis of folk music has taken place that isn't anthropology or taxonomy/collection? Something in other words that hasn't emerged from those with a vested interest?

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM

"Folk will get a real, honest to God, 3-dimensional appraisal one day soon, away from narcissists whose lives are so entangled with it they think three hundred years will disappear if they stop bitching for 3 seconds but it probably won't be on this board.
This board is for polishing your ego. It has almost nothing to do with folk music."
Glueman
I assume the above statement is aimed at everybody but yourself - you are the only one here isn't narcassistic and who isn't 'bitching' and 'polishing his ego'.
These threads have everything to do with music are not displays of ego - though, in your case..... They are made bcause the contributors care enough to take the trouble to make them.
Justify your statements, or will they go the way of all your other arrogant pronouncements of a similar nature which you have made and walked away from?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 11:24 AM

Like Richard, I have no little string of publications to my name.

When I first took up the study of Law, many moons ago, something a Tutor said has been with me since, and I think is equally applicable to discussion on, analysis of, history and provenance of a song.

"Any eejit (sp. ?) can make a statement. Lawters are a special kind of eejit - a Lawyer makes a statement and supports it with Authority".

For 'Lawyer' in the quotes above, substitute "folkie".

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

From: Dave Hanson - PM
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:13 AM

I promise I will NEVER even open a Lizzie Cornish thread EVER again, they are without exception started with one purpose in mind, so that people will talk about Lizzie Cornish, she craves and adores the attention, she doesn't care what is said as long as it is about her, for me, no more forever.

Dave H

Sorry Hanson is no one talking to YOU..there there poor thing!

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM

Ah - correct name. Let's see. Oh yes, Richard Bridge.

Let me see if I have this right, Gg. You don't care whether it's a folk song or not, (and indeed possibly you think it's a bad thing that we should care whether it's a folk song or not) but you think we should care whether it's a GOOD folk song or not.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:32 AM

Wilgus did some interesting work Folkiedave, especially in categorising texts according to narrative, however his view is essentially still of collection and taxonomy, not critical theory. Thanks for the offer anyway.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:26 AM

Times like this I think Mudcat should close its doors to casual browsers & non-members. Entry should be for the truly committed Folk Enthusiast only, committed enough to apply for membership, under their own names,

I'm Dave Eyre if you didn't know already. Jim Carroll is Jim Carroll, and Diane Easby is Diane Easby. Ruth Archer is fairly well-known but I am sure she will be happy to say who she is.

I suspect CV's would be embarassing for a lot of people. Photos of me certainly are.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:24 AM

Reg [Meuross] has been criticised by fRoots and Diane

As a point of information, Mr Meuross criticised fRoots for not reviewing one of his CDs, a musical offering which, though good, did not fall into the fR remit of being rooted in a tradition. Some of his work does, some does not.

He did this in a BBC blog in which he speculated that the reason for this omission was, extraordinarily, because of his gender. I commented that this was not only petulant but sexist. End of.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:23 AM

Folk has had limited critical theoretical analysis for a few reasons....

There is a wealth of critical analysis. Let me sell you a few books.

Start with D.K. Wilgus. "Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898".

I'll do you a copy in extremely good condition for £12.00. For you I'll even pay the postage.

When you have read that I'll suggest some more. I have loads. It's what booksellers do. You should have asked earlier.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM

You mean it's not worth anything if you think about it?

I mean it's a minority specialism with a core of ageing grunters forever locking horns with each other over ideological minutiae, which is what this thread seems to be mostly about, other than more gratuitous Lizzie / Glueman bashing.

Times like this I think Mudcat should close its doors to casual browsers & non-members. Entry should be for the truly committed Folk Enthusiast only, committed enough to apply for membership, under their own names, with a full CV & photographic ID provided.

Maybe then we might start treating each other with some respect.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

WHY is the English folk world supposed to be so devoid of emotion????? Why is a music that is emotion itself surrounded by people who despise emotional things being said about the songs or the people who perform them.

There you go again Lizzie!!

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM

You haven't addressed any of my points Jim, you are confirming them.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:06 AM

Richard, off the top of my head there's the Journal of the EFDSS and various academic journals/websites, however most of these are only available on-line if you're associated with an academic institution. Musical Traditions website contains a lot of well-researched articles.

For less academic but usually well-informed research/criticsm there's English Dance and Song, fRoots, Living Tradition and other magazines.

There's also the tradtunes discussion group, which seems less inclined to disolve into abuse and bitching than Mudcat:)

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM

"Why is it that you felt it necessary to create a myspace site in memory of Private Harry Farr (which, by the way, I think is excellent)in response to Reg Meuross' song "And Jesus wept..."?

Does this not go some way to qualifying you for your own definition of 'Professor'?"

Well, Pete, Reg gave us the most wonderful introduction to the song, he more of less created that page, as I sat there listening to him. He brought Harry into that room with us, made us feel his fear, his horror, his pain...He took us to his family, the shame they felt, the way they cut Harry off...

Reg is a MASTER Storyteller, same as John Tams is....

By the time Reg had finished singing the song, Harry's page had already been 'born' in my head. It took a few months though, before it became reality...and then, one day, I sat down at the computer...and who knows, maybe Harry was right beside me, as I listened to Reg's song, but...by the end of the day, there was Harry's story, recreated pretty much as Reg had told it, with a few extras added.

Reg would never make anyone feel inferior for not knowing the history of a song though, he'd only ever want to inform, uplift and teach...and yet...Reg has been criticised by fRoots and Diane, and belittled too, by both. Again, he is a MASTER storyteller, and one the folk world should show far more respect to.

I have nothing but admiration for Reg Meuross...and detractors please not, the word is ADMIRATION, ***not*** ADULATION.


Richard, your comments about me making 'fan' type comments about Kate Rusby, I take objection over. I simply love Kate's gentle music and songs.

WHY is the English folk world supposed to be so devoid of emotion????? Why is a music that is emotion itself surrounded by people who despise emotional things being said about the songs or the people who perform them.

I learnt a long time back that life is short, life is fragile, and if I get the chance to emote about something, to spread sparkles about it, then I damn well will.   

Maybe, because the US and Canadian posters are more in touch with their feelings, they are far more relaxed about their music. We need to stop being so damned 'British' about it, and let ourselves GO!

If you LOVE the music of someone, then talk about it, in a way that brings others in.

Here you go, Pete...once more...Harry's page...born from the sheer beauty of a song, which took me right inside the life of a man....

Harry Farr's Myspace - Made for Reg Meuross's song '..and Jesus Wept'

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM

"I guess this is part of the reason folk enjoys such a lowly status with respect of British Culture as whole."
You mean it's not worth anything if you think about it?
"Qualifying what I say Jim, leads down a one-dimension historical track of pedants yattata yattata, yattata etc"
Justifying sweeping unqualified generalistions by burying them in verbiage is one way of getting away with them I suppose.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 09:31 AM

Where, Howard?

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:27 AM

That is your opinion.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM

HJ I have no problem with Mudcat being a fan site. I get twitchy when it abuses other posters for being mere fans.

Me too. But that "fan" ain't Lizzie......

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:24 AM

HJ I have no problem with Mudcat being a fan site. I get twitchy when it abuses other posters for being mere fans. A variety of opinion is good, a dearth of it bad but it is all - just opinion.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:18 AM

Glueman, you appear to be overlooking the fact that this is a discussion forum for enthusiasts, not academics. There is plenty of serious academic study but you'll have to look elsewhere for it.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:03 AM

But if you're not here to discuss the songs, why are you here? Is this website just to be here to host a collection of lyrics or is it to add to out knowledge and understanding of them? And don't pretend that discussion and "Intellectulising" of song lyrics only happens in the folk world - try googling "American Pie" for example.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:00 AM

"Folk music criticism"?

???

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:56 AM

Qualifying what I say Jim, leads down a one-dimension historical track of pedants and borderline asperger's cases (with sympathy to anyone suffering from autism) who aren't satisfied till they get the answer they want to hear and are prepared for an attrition of any length to achieve it. Folk has had limited critical theoretical analysis for a few reasons, one is that people really don't give a shit about it, two you won't get a debate worth a damn that doesn't come back to collection and attribution and three, there are few neutral and intelligent voices - each has some professional or quasi-professional axe to grind. Compared to the debates around folklore, folk music criticism is in the intellectual nursery and this board is pleased to act as nanny.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:56 AM

You haven't let a single word of the above sink in, have you? BTW, "Intellectulising" isn't a word. If you're going to attack someone for something at least learn to spell what you're attacking them for.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:54 AM

I guess this is part of the reason folk enjoys such a lowly status with respect of British Culture as whole. Personally I wouldn't have it any other way...

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:35 AM

gosh i didnt know that listening and enjoying music can be so difficult reading these threads. Intellectulising "wow is that a word" over music too much takes the fun out of actually listening to it, and instead of just listening you just want to pull all music apart where is the fun in that. The rhythm has gone and it becomes stilted.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:07 AM

"How has it become so controlled by those who demand that the correct history of the song is constantly given out...."
Perhps it would hlp clarify things if Lizzie could give us some examples of this.
"Folk will get a real, honest to God, 3-dimensional appraisal one day soon, away from narcissists whose lives are so entangled with it they think three hundred years will disappear if they stop bitching for 3 seconds but it probably won't be on this board."
Would ask Glueman the same, but have come to realise that he doesn't qualify his wild accusations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:58 AM

Lizzie, to return to your original post:

"How has it become so controlled by those who demand that the correct history of the song is constantly given out...."

Why is it that you felt it necessary to create a myspace site in memory of Private Harry Farr (which, by the way, I think is excellent)in response to Reg Meuross' song "And Jesus wept..."?

Does this not go some way to qualifying you for your own definition of 'Professor'?

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:45 AM

"As (orginally) a history teacher I dislike it when people get facts wrong. (Like stating black is a colour- mea culpa)."

Don't beat yers'en up Dave - it's one of the little facts I'm rather sadly pedantic about. I get plenty of others wrong! :-)

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:38 AM

And I'll take that 200...........

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:37 AM

Lizzie is not always wrong and I simply avoid her too when she does not make unsubstantiated statements. As most people do.

As (orginally) a history teacher I dislike it when people get facts wrong. (Like stating black is a colour- mea culpa).

From your Kate Rusby thread:

"Kate's not frightened of chopping and changing traditional songs around, she readily admits that, and perhaps that's why she gets such strife from some folks in the pedantic English folk world, who demand that songs are sung the 'correct' way, 'their' way.

I know of no-one who says that about Kate, and the important thing is Lizzie - neither do you. I have never met in the past thirty years involvement in folk music who demand that people sing a song in a particular way. But all I ask is that you produce let's say two people who have said something vaguely like that.

Let me just take another example of how Lizzie turns things around to produce nonsense, this from her latest missive.

involved by those who deem themselves The Professors, and feel it is their right to talk down to The Peasants.

There isn't anyone who has deemed themselves "Professors" Lizzie, nor is there anyone who accepts the term "Peasant" about themselves that I can see - they were terms you alone and by yourself with no help from anyone came up with. But of course that was some days ago now and you have probably forgotten.

The only thing the English folk world is not accepting of, as far as I can see is people who write unsubstantiated nonsense. Or as I prefer to call it - bollocks.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:11 AM

Durr!!!!!!!!

Thanks. I feel silly now!

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:58 AM

Folk will get a real, honest to God, 3-dimensional appraisal one day soon, away from narcissists whose lives are so entangled with it they think three hundred years will disappear if they stop bitching for 3 seconds but it probably won't be on this board.

This board is for polishing your ego. It has almost nothing to do with folk music.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:56 AM

I just wondered why some of you call her the OP.

"original poster", the person who started the thread in question.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:42 AM

While Lizzie can be infuriating, she is not always wrong. The Eliza Carthy thread for example was I think helpful to a number of people and pointed them to something they were happy to see. I did not and do not see the need for the spikiness pointed at LIzzie there. The Krusby thread itself is in a different position. Lizzie's posts there did get steadily more fanzine, but to some extent she was driven to it. What is not in order, it seems to me, regarding that thread is her winge about the attribution debate. Attribution is important. That is why for example modern authors have "moral rights" of attribution - the right to be identified as the author of a work. Also, given the nature of the difference between folk and other music, a scholar's deliberate falsification of his research is worthy of comment - and indeed the slipshod nature of modern documentary making deserved a baying mob.

On the other hand, this thread is based on a lie: that the "professors" have in some way stopped the "peasants" from participating in the peasants' heritage. They have not.




Unfortunately it is not always possible to avoid threads from people who annoy: the thread titles do not identify the OP until the thread has been opened.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:39 AM

Lizzie's attitude and abuse - of other posters.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:38 AM

What Bryn said!

Any thread that Lizzie gets involved in goes the same way: lots of twittering from Lizzie then she starts abusing people who try to discuss things with her.

I find Lizzie's whole attitude abuse very upsetting so I don't contribute much.

I just wondered why some of you call her the OP.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:27 AM

If you can't see that folk is perceived through the historically valorised position of its enthusuasts to the detriment of other readings, nothing I say will convince you.

What's really amusing is that you're accusing other people of living in a "hermetic world".

Ahem. I was just going to say I agree with Bryn and Dave H and Ruth, but I got sidetracked. I'd better pledge not to respond to glueman for good measure.

Anyone want to start that 'introductions' thread?

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:58 AM

First : what Ruth said supra, 2nd June at 0935.

Second : what Dave H said, 3rd June at 03.13.

I am with you, Dave H. The whole point of Mad Lizzie starting a thread is so she can get the attention which is patently absent otherwise in her life.

Sad. There are certain 'Catters, whose threads I give the go-by.

Mad Lizzie has just joined this exclusive sect.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:43 AM

"is the condescension involved by those who deem themselves The Professors, and feel it is their right to talk down to The Peasants.
"

The best way to avoid these people is to wear tin-foil under your hat.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:32 AM

"I promise I will NEVER even open a Lizzie Cornish thread EVER again, they are without exception started with one purpose in mind, so that people will talk about Lizzie Cornish, she craves and adores the attention, she doesn't care what is said as long as it is about her, for me, no more forever."

Excellent Dave, that's one less poster to abuse me from now on then. Thank you for finally bowing out.

Hey, do you recall though, that conversation we had, when I told you how upset I was, over having had my freedom of speech taken away on the BBC, by you and your mates, after years of constant abuse? Do you recall that you came back to me, saying 'Hey Lizzie, it's just a bit of fun, that's all.'...and do you recall how I told you that it had gone way beyond 'fun'. Write what you want to me 'in private'....but please, don't distort the views of those who may know nothing of what's been following me around for years.

This thread was...actually...started in exasperation over the pedantic ramblings concerning A.L. Lloyd, in Kate Rusby's thread...a thread which I started for no other reason than to pass a link on to others, should they want to watch it, because I happen to love Kate's music. I know that many others do as well, including many on Mudcat. But down came The Professors, who sucked out the joy and happiness in that thread. Fair enough, threads go like that, conversation goes of at tangents all the time, and there are always some things that come out of threads going off topic which always prove interesting...

But I started this thread because I am sick of the way certain people think they are the be all and end all of the folk world, and their condescending manner really gets up my nose at times. I started it to try and find out how it's happened and why.

Yes, of course it's interesting to hear the stories behind the songs, and...if you have the gift of telling the story in the right way, then much will be learned by many. I've spoken about how John Tams does this so brilliantly, above.

But just coming out with intense facts and dates, can actually, (for me at least) be really boring and a complete and utter turn off. Far more than that though, is the condescension involved by those who deem themselves The Professors, and feel it is their right to talk down to The Peasants.

It ain't.

Teaching is NOT about being condescending. Teaching is about an absolute willingness to share your knowledge, in an inspirational, uplifting and non-abusive manner....and as you can see, by much of the crap written in here...it is a gift that not everyone in the English folk world has.

As I've said before, I do NOT see this sort of reaction in the Australian, US and Canadian posters....They have the gift of simply seeming able to love the songs, never using the facts that lie behind them as weapons.

And someoe mentioned above about starting a new thread, leading off this one, about how people introduce songs. I think that's a wondeful idea, but of course, if I do it, the usual crap will start, so I hope that someone else may do that instead..

Good to hear that I won't have to endure any more of your verbal abuse though, Dave. That's really cheered me up. I thank you for that.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:03 AM

Thank God the Pissing-Contest appears to be over.
Amen DH.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:51 AM

SpleenCringe is absolutely 100 % right.

Don't feed the troll.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:13 AM

I promise I will NEVER even open a Lizzie Cornish thread EVER again, they are without exception started with one purpose in mind, so that people will talk about Lizzie Cornish, she craves and adores the attention, she doesn't care what is said as long as it is about her, for me, no more forever.

Dave H

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: The Barden of England
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:25 PM

Looking more like 'Pedants to Professors' with each post. :o)
John Barden

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Gedi
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:03 PM

I second what Spleen said above. Time for a little decorum folks!

Ged

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 04:40 PM

I have found that some musicians tend to introduce songs with a lecture or a sermon, generally they're preaching to the converted so to speak.