BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is

Subject: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Genie
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 01:08 AM

Doctor who performed abortions shot to death

As usual, those who perform violent acts against people, including murder, are called just about everything else, by the media, but "terrorists." Meanwhile, members of Earth Liberation Front or Earth First or Animal Liberation Front -- even Greenpeace -- are labeled "eco-terrorists both by our "intelligence" agencies and by the media, even when their acts of sabotage are merely interference with commerce (e.g., lying down on a logging road to prevent trucks from passing) or sabotage/vandalism (e.g., spray painting a building or slashing the tires of a parked vehicle), and even if the members of that organization have never either indulged in nor condoned violence against people.

Is this bias on the part of our government agencies and our media, or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 01:11 AM

I think not so much a bias as a deliberate tactic designed to produce a specific result.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 08:03 AM

Genie, the media exists only for the purpose of making money for its owners. Headlines (especially) and other "news" content are written as they are to attract and retain readers/watchers...aka, buyers of advertised products. They would call killers "fluffy bunnies" if that would work better.

That being said, (IMHO) the "terrorist" label is more likely to be used for a criminal who belongs to a group which espouses a specific anti societal agenda than to one who is acting on his/her own. Exceptions exist, certainly.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

I think it depends on which side of the issue you are on as to who the terrorists are...

IMO, there's a big difference between civil disobiedience and murder...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM

They had no problem calling him a domestic terrorist on MSNBC, yesterday, with experts agreeing on that term.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 01:04 PM

To King George the 5th, George Washington was a terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 01:59 PM

I really think not, Kendall. He would have considered him a traitor, yes, but the tactics of Washington were not terrorist tactics. The hallmark of terrorism is not action against opposing armed forces, as Washington and his army engaged in (usually not too successfully) but the creation of widespread intimidation by imposition of senseless and sensational violence. The idea is essentially a propagandistic one, rather than a strategic act. That wasn't Washington's approach at all; he was a soldier, and used very straightforward military means and tactics.

Now the Boston Tea Party might be called a terrorist act, but that was before the Revolution, and Washington had no part in it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Genie
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM

Art, you're right that the media exists only for the purpose of making money for their owners. They either parrot what they've heard/read somewhere else or they word things for the most sensationalism (to attract consumers).   But you'd think that would make them call this murder an act of "terrorism" too.

The FBI, however, also lists various environmental action groups as "eco-terrorist" groups -- giving them license, via the so-called Patriot Act, to spy on them, etc.    I wonder if they consider some of the extreme "Pro-Life" groups -- the ones that inflame their members to act out violently against "abortionists," whom they designate "mass murderers" -- Christo-Terrorist groups.

Yes, the "terrorist" label is more likely to be used for a criminal who belongs to a group which espouses a specific anti societal agenda than to one who is acting on his/her own.
But I think you'd be stretching a point to say that environmental and animal rights organizations have "antisocial agendas." They are not espousing the overthrow of the government or violence against people.   In fact, the environmental groups maintain their purpose is sustainability of human (and animal) life on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Genie
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM

Our "founding fathers" were considered traitors and once they signed the Declaration Of Independence, King George issued death sentences for them.   Though they were engaged in a violent revolution (because the British would not let the colonies secede without a fight), but "terrorism" is a term used for acts specifically aimed at instilling great fear in a group.   
As Uncle Dave put it "the creation of widespread intimidation by imposition of senseless and sensational violence. The idea is essentially a propagandistic one, rather than a strategic act."

So I wouldn't call the Boston Tea Party or releasing lab animals from cages or even most cases of assassination of political leaders "terrorism."   "Terrorism" applies when a larger group is being intimidated -- violence is feared and its targets unpredictable except for being people in some category (e.g., Jews, blacks, Catholics, gays, Wall Street Execs, clinics that offer abortion services).   
I guess you could argue that there can be "economic terrorism" when a group aims to ruin a group of people financially, but I think that may be stretching a point.   Some have tried to label product or company boycotts "economic terrorism," but I think that blurs some important distinctions.

The suspect in Tiller's murder was tied to Operation Rescue and maybe other extreme anti-abortion groups and reportedly had bomb-making equipment in his home too. I'd say that the term "terrorist" fits him a lot more than it does people who get between whaling ships and whales or perch in old trees to keep them from being cut down.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM

Killing individuals because you don't approve of their individual behavior isn't terrorism, it's assassination.

Killing individual civilians who did nothing to warrant (note, I did not say Deserve!) being assassinated, to focus attention on a cause unrelated to what the victims were actually doing, is terrorism.

Don't dilute the term. It's like people saying that (pick some crime that is not rape) is rape.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:40 PM

Terrorist: a person who terrorizes or frightens others.

        Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I have no problem calling Dr. Tiller's murderer a terrorist, that his act included assassination only furthers the argument...any doctor who provides women a right to choose will now be even more terrorized due to this killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM

Wasn't George III mentally ill? Does what he might have said count?

On the other hand didn't the "revolutionaries" (weren't they actually separatists?) use tactics that were contrary to their contemporary rules of war. If terrorist had been in contemporary parlance, it might well have been used.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:47 PM

Olberman reinforces Genie's point. MSNBC's prime time lineup seems to be making a living appearing to an audience fed up with the rest of the media on many issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM

He was ill...about forty years into his reign. How many people have suffered from Alzheimers who in earlier years were brilliant?

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

Wasn't he "mad" during the revolution?

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM

If ELF (e.g.) burns down a ski resort and in the process of fighting the fire a firefighter is killed, isn't that at least manslaughter? And to my mind, and I admit to bias here, arson is one of the most cowardly of crimes.

If someone "spikes" a tree and a chainsaw operator is injured as a result, isn't the spiker just as guilty as if s/he had shot the sawyer with a nail gun?

Those who lay down in front of the bulldozer at least have the courage to face those with opposing views. The arsonist and such types are cowards of the first water.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM

And the guy who shot Dr. Tiller is a murderer and should be treated as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Genie
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 08:57 PM

Rapaire, has ELF ever been responsible for death or injury to a person?
Anyway, the examples I cited (of inappropriate application of the term "terrorist" to groups like Earth First!) were not examples of arson.    (I do believe some organizations that go out of their way to avoid injury to people sometimes take too many risks that people may be hurt or killed.)
I have heard news broadcasts wherein people/groups were labeled "eco-terrorists" for doing things like lying down in front of logging trucks (classic Ghand-style passive resistance) or spray painting signs on a building (vandalism) or getting between whaling ships and whales (interference with a business enterprise). I believe the FBI classifies groups "terrorist" groups if they do such things, even if no one has ever been hurt.

In Tiller's case, I don't think the intent was simply to assassinate a person. I think it was to strike fear in the hearts of anyone who performs or assists in abortions, no matter what the circumstances.   If Operation Rescue people want to lie down in front of the entrances to "abortion clinics" or spray paint slogans on their walls, I wouldn't call that "terrorism" either.

But I think having bomb-making stuff in your house and then gunning down someone in church, while he was serving as an usher, qualifies as terrorism. I imagine that not just the other staff at Dr. Tiller's clinic but also the members of his church congregation may feel a lot of fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM

GUEST,Jack the Sailor said:

didn't the "revolutionaries" (weren't they actually separatists?) use tactics that were contrary to their contemporary rules of war.

No, I don't believe so. They used tactics different from what the British, Hessian (etc.) troops were trained in, but I'm not aware of any actions by the Continentals that were of a kind or on a level that could be called "contrary to the rules of war", such as attacks on civilians, violation of religious sites which had no military significance, etc.

The colonist revolutionaries did engage in what we probably would today call guerrilla warfare--hit and run attacks, melting away and vanishing into the populace, avoiding the classical set-piece mass military confrontations which were the stock in trade of the British and the Hessians. But that's not violations of "rules of war", now or then.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 01:46 PM

I would be interested in encouraging O'Reilly's indictment for incitement to murder. Also not that his statistics are not only wildly exaggerated, they are physically impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 02:01 PM

I don't think there were "rules of war" then.

I am sure there are current views on the causes of the delusional behaviour of King George III - but I am not aware of any view that Alzheimers was such a cause. His legendary "prodigious stools" are I think a clue to a specific illness but I forget what.

As to terrorism, I think Kat has it precisely right. NB that makes the IRA a terrorist organisation and the US courts wrong in their findings that they were not.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 09:32 PM

George III's retrospective diagnosis is porphyria.   Wikipedia has an article on it, HERE. Definitely not Alzheimer's.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Genie
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM

Back to the present.   It seems Congress has already enacted laws that basically recognize organized interference with healthcare facilities, including 'abortion clinics' as something akin to terrorism -- at least as counter to the interests of society.   There are serious legal penalties for those convicted of blocking access to clinics or supergluing their doors (as the guy accused of killing Dr. Tiller has been caught doing several times in the past).   Even encouraging people to commit such acts is illegal. But it seems while these laws were enforced during Clinton's administration, their enforcement dropped off dramatically (to almost nonexistent) during the G W Bush administration.   It doesn't help much for laws to be on the books if the DOJ gives a wink and a nod to those who violate them. And had these laws been enforced, the guy who (allegedly) killed Tiller would have been in prison instead of free to make bombs and shoot doctors.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:10 PM

Actually, Rapaire, death as a result of a felony is murder, whether intentional or not. If ELF burns down a ski resort they thought would be empty, but someone dies, that's murder. Legally, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:21 PM

NY Times: Jury Reaches Guilty Verdict in [First-degree] Murder of Abortion Doctor. 37 minutes was all it took them. Could have been less, I say.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:35 PM

Mr. Roeder told jurors that he had a growing sense of his own faith and opposition to abortion in the 1990s after watching "The 700 Club," the evangelist Pat Robertson's television talk show. Mr. Roeder's views on religion and abortion, he said, went "hand in hand."

Too bad they couldn't have tried Robertson, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 03:18 PM

Let us hope that that sends a message to the US lunatic right.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 03:35 PM

Let us hope that that sends a message to the US lunatic right.

Let's hope the message it sends isn't simple math. Seen from within the logic of the extreme anti-choice side: Throw yourself in front of the canon (i.e. commit murder) and you can take out one enemy combatant (abortion provider) thus resulting in the elimination of X abortions. Seen from a purely mathematical POV, if you really think there is no greater evil than abortion, it should become the duty of the far-right to take out abortion providers. I'm surprised there's not been more. This all strictly from within the logic of their own perspective of course. Seen from without I think it makes a reductio of their position.

As for ELF: I don't think I could get a really good feel for who they are based on a WikiPedia article, but if they are doing dangerous things that could harm other people, and potentially in great numbers, to the and that people would start acting more like they want them to (i.e. as a form of coercion), then I don't think "terrorist" is too far afield.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:37 AM

creation of widespread intimidation by imposition of senseless and sensational violence

Every army does that, from long before the Romans who crucified civilian refugees from the siege of Jerusalem, through the Prussians who executed French civilians who fought alongside the retreating French armies in 1870, to the bombings of Guernica, Dresden, Hanoi, Baghdad and Gaza City.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM

It took 37 minutes for the jury to find the defendent guilty of first degree murder. After a bathroom break and a sip of water that left little time to vote in the jury room.

The convicted killer claimed a defense that he was preventing a murder from being commited by murdering the doctor.
There will be people to eulogize the killer, people like Bill O'Reilly. Bill spoke in the killer's defense and praised his tactics prior to the murder of the gynocologist.

I don't see this in terms of armies and terrorists. I see a sick man encouraged his whole adult life to shoot the doctor in the head near the alter of his church.

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:26 PM

There remains the possibility of an "anti-terrorist" result from the trial of Dr. Tiller's murderer, as the defense convened a number of "witnesses" purportedly to show that the belief that murder of abortionists is justified may have influenced the defendant.

The defense was permitted to present their arguments before the judge in chambers, but the judge quite properly ruled that their defense did not support a plea to a reduced manslaughter charge under Kansas law, so that "defense" was not permitted with the jury present, and none of the witnesses actually appeared in the court. It is not clear whether the defense brought any of them into the hearing in chambers.

Their identities, however, are a part of the court record since subpoenas were issued to have them present. The list is a short who's-who of persons and organizations who may be potentially violent, or have advocated violence, although it's obvious that the defense omitted requesting subpoenas for "controversial" agitators. (Pat Robertson was not invited.)

The FBI, ATF, Homeland Security, and some others had observers present at the trial, and while their comments after trial were "terse" there is some likelihood that one or more of the agencies may pursue further investigations, or do have investigations in progress. The list of those invited as potential "character witnesses" was so sanitized that there probably was little not already known by the interested agencies, but at least there was a show of interest.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tiller killer not 'terrorist' but ELF is
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:45 PM

wHOOP DE FUGGUN DO

With a defense like that every tea bagger in the country would be an anti terrorist if they believed killing the president would be justified since he is murdering democracy, liberty, capitalism, constitution, religion and gun ownership.