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BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
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Subject: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Peter T. Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:43 AM This is a link to Obama's speech in Cairo: http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2009/06/04/obama_speech/index.html It wanders a bit towards the end, but the first two thirds is quite astonishing. It really takes the mental fight to the whole Middle East apparatus. It is essentially a repudiation of the entire mission of the Bush administration, admits to the overthrow of the Iranian government by the CIA, and tells the Israelis and the Palestinians what's what. I don't think people are really ready to absorb the full "Obama Doctrine" laid out in this speech -- if he means it, and can do what he says he wants to do. Even if he doesn't, setting the situation as he does is quite an amazing feat of intelligence (something sorely lacking in the gamesmanship of the Middle East). yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM If only... Had this speech depicting this respectful approach been given at the beginning of the administration of 2000, 9/11 may never have happened. Bravo, Obama! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:34 AM This man is bringing about some serious shifts. May he prosper and flourish. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: kendall Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:57 AM Double the Secret Service. He is making enemies and Osama Bin Laden is one of them. He needs to keep the fires of hate going to maintain his power. If Obama removes the reason they hate us Osama B L will need to get a job. How do you say, "Welcome to Wal Mart" in Arabic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM Sallam aleikum Walmaaart, I guess. This speech was a world class example of a decent, strong but understanding leader showing the best side of America: honesty, insight, hope and helpfulness combined with determination. He is (in many respects) far more an American than Bush, Cheny and Rumsfeld ever were inspite of their WASPy backgrounds. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Wesley S Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM I can't imagine the spin that someone like Limbaugh will put on this. Maybe his head will just explode. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM Holy shit. I can hardly believe it. I begin to truly fear for Mr Obama's life. He's telling the truth, it seems, and that's quite dangerous in America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM IF it does, it will take half his lower GI with it... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: mandotim Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:29 PM I'm sitting here in the UK, thinking 'you lucky, lucky Americans.' This guy Obama really gets it doesn't he? When a course of action is obviously failing, he doesn'try to do the same thing only louder/harder/more often, he changes the whole game. It's not a proper comparison yet, Obama has a long way to go, but the last person in that sort of position to use that sort of mindset was probably Gandhi when struggling for Indian independence. I hope Americans don't do the 'modern' thing and try to tear him down with trivia. He seems to have the capability to be a truly historic President, and the longer you keep him engaged, energised and optimistic, the better things will be. Tim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM The flibbertygibbets and the Lower 40 Percentile types will continue to spew; Obama has the grace to tolerate a lot of noise, out of respect, while staying clearly focused on the real signals and doing well and sifting out the important ones. The big danger is our sturdy homebred rednecked superpatriots who are yearning to dramatize the American Revolution or the Civil War and think they have the firepower to make the world better by resorting to mindless violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: GUEST,mg Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:44 PM Is it really necessary to call someone a redneck, especially in the context of trying to achieve reconciliation etc. between populations? l;mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: PoppaGator Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:50 PM I think Amos' use of the term "rednecked" (note the suffix "-ed") was entirely appropriate for the idea he was expressing. He was not name-calling at any specific individual. He was characterizing the type of person who might concceivably perpetrate great harm upon the nation and the world at large. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:54 PM That's a very worthwhile point, mg. We had best do what Mr Obama keeps suggesting and focus on what unites us with other people, what we have in common with them...rather than engaging in negative stereotyping and attacks upon those who are different from us in some way. And what do we all have in common? As human beings on a small planet? We all want to live in peace, freedom, and prosperity, and we all want a secure future for ourselves and our children. It can be done. But it cannot be done by attacking one another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: bubblyrat Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM So tell the Palestinians that ,and we might get somewhere !!And while you're at it,get North Korea to see sense,and ask the Iranians to take a fresh look at life ! Try to persuade Russia to abandon its attempts to annexe the Arctic,and teach moderation to the Taleban. Ask Osama Bin Laden round for a cosy chat & a nice cup of tea,and maybe you could ask the Sri Lankan government why they slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent civilians recently ,as they are purported to have done. Oh, and while you are at it----maybe you could convince China of the wisdom of returning Tibet to its rightful owners. Otherwise, I agree with you ...more or less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Wesley S Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM You're right bubblyrat. Since some of the folks out there aren't doing it right lets just bomb them back to the stone age. That should work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: The Barden of England Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM Ask Osama Bin Laden round for a cosy chat & a nice cup of tea,and maybe you could ask the Sri Lankan government why they slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent civilians recently ,as they are purported to have done. So that didn't happen in Vietnam nor Iraq then? Nor of course when my country went to Dresden? John Barden |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:43 PM You have missed the point, Bubblyrat. Obama, you should note, has never slackened in his resolve to oppose violent extremist forces where and when they must be opposed. That does not change the fact that one improves the world by focusing on what people have in common with each other and what positive things they can do rather than by obsessing over what divides them and holding bitter grudges over past incidents. Most Palestinians, like most Israelis, simply want to live in peace, happiness, and prosperity, and to be in charge of their own destiny and raise their families. Period. Workable solutions are the ones that will enable BOTH the Palestinians and the Israelis to live in peace, happiness, and prosperity and be in charge of their own destiny. That requires a two-state solution, economic improvements for the Palestinians, and peace and security for both Palestinians and Isrealis. Such solutions can be found by people of goodwill...and those people tremendously outnumber the few fanatics and zealots who cause all the violence and suffering. If you expect EVERYONE in the world to instantly change as you would wish them to, you will always be disappointed, and your troubles with them will never end. If you focus only on the WORST people in the world, and ignore and abandon all the others to their fate, the violence will never end. If you change yourself by focusing on positives rather than on fear and hatred, you will be empowered to make positive changes happen...and they will happen a bit at a time...not all at once. You want to change the world for the better? Change yourself. Change your attitude. The world changes one person at a time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bill D Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:46 PM "You want to change the world for the better? Change yourself. Change your attitude. The world changes one person at a time." Amen, Little Hawk! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: LilyFestre Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM "If you change yourself by focusing on positives rather than on fear and hatred, you will be empowered to make positive changes happen...and they will happen a bit at a time...not all at once. You want to change the world for the better? Change yourself. Change your attitude. The world changes one person at a time." ~Little Hawk Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: open mike Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM NPR audio and text transcript of Obama's speech I would like to know the difference between Islam, Moslem and Muslim... can any one define this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Wesley S Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM Little Hawk - It sounds you're a candidate to be bombed back to the stone age too. Just keep it up...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM From "Answers.com": The noun Moslem "has one meaning: Meaning #1: a believer or follower of Islam Synonyms: Muslim, Mohammedan, Muhammedan, Muhammadan The adjective Moslem has one meaning: Meaning #1: of or relating to or supporting Islamism Synonyms: Muslim, Islamic Pertains to noun: Islamism (meaning #2)" THere were earlier forms in the nineteenth century including Musselman, and Mohammedan, both of whioch are rarely used now. Thus Islam / Islamism relates to the religious beliefs, and Muslim, Moslem to the followers there of. THe two words derive from the same semantic root. An important distinction is between Muslims and Arabs. Note, from the same source, the distinction around the term "Arab": The term Arab originally meant a member of the Semitic race of people of the Arabian Peninsula east of Palestine. They were the nomadic Bedouins of the desert. Today, Arabs live throughout the world, including parts or all of Algeria, Bahrain, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Some Arabs hold Israeli citizenship. (Note that Iran is not an Arab country. Its roots go back to ancient Persia, with a totally different history and culture.) Although not all Arabs speak Arabic, the language is one of the great unifying and distinguishing characteristics of the people, even though dialects differ from place to place. It is a common misconception that Islam is a unifying force in the Arab world. Not all Arab traditions are Islamic, and Islam does not unite Arabs. Muhammad once commented, "The desert Arabians are most confirmed in unbelief and hypocrisy." There are more Muslims in Indonesia alone than in all Arab countries combined. Some thirty million Chinese are Muslim. In many countries, Muslim and Christian Arabs live side by side, although it is true that in most Arab countries, Islam is the predominate religion. In the Middle East it is not uncommon to meet Arab Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Jews all living within a few blocks of each other. During the time of the Crusades in the Middle Ages, it became the custom of Christians to use the terms "Muslim," "Pagan," "Turk," "Infidel," and "Arab" almost interchangeably. Today, the Western "man on the street" usually thinks "Muslim" when he hears the word "Arab." This misapprehension is the result of mistaking religion for culture. WIkipedia adds: A Muslim (Arabic: مسلم), pronounced /ˈmʊslɪm/, is an adherent of the religion of Islam. The feminine form is Muslimah[1] (Arabic: مسلمة). Literally, the word means "one who submits (to God)". Muslim is the participle of the same verb of which Islam is the infinitive.[2] Muslims believe that there is only one God, translated in Arabic as Allah. Muslims believe that Islam existed long before Muhammad and that the religion had evolved with time from the time of Adam until the time of Muhammad and was completed with the revelation of verse 3 of Surah al-Maeda: More here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM I think the speech is a good start (from what I have been able to listen to so far... I am having technical difficulties). I find it incredibly ironic when people condemn what the government of Sri Lanka has done to Tamil civilians while supporting what the government of Israel has done to civilians in Gaza. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Ferrara Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM Or, to put it more succinctly, Islam is the religion. Parallel to the words Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity etc. Moslem and Muslim are different spellings of the same Arabic word. They mean a member of the religion. Parallel to the words Buddhist, Jewish, Christian etc. Rita |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:54 PM I've noticed that, more often than not, the spelling "Moslem" us used by people who have negative feelings/associations with Islam, and the spelling, "Muslim" is used by almost everyone else. I don't think I've ever seen anyone disseminating a negative view of Islam or of Muslims use the spelling "Muslim". I'm not sure why that would be, but that's what I've noticed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: heric Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM I like the man a lot but Rodney King was more succinct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:10 PM He's being extraordinarily dishonest when he says that violence never produced good results for people in getting their demands met. Both the US and Israel are examples of countries that would not exist today had they not employed methods of violence in order to make it happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: heric Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:29 PM I noticed that item, too CC, as unpersuasive. He's a little young to remember Vietnam. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:30 PM It is true that violence sometimes does secure a good result for people in getting their demands met....but it is also true that non-violence is a far wiser path for people in general to follow. If you can mobilize enough people in a non-violent way, you can achieve enormous change. In the case of the American Revolution, the colonial population was split about 50/50 between those who wanted a revolt against the crown and those who supported the crown. In the case of the 50% who were in favor of a revolt, I would assume that less than half of them were immediately willing to go out and risk their lives in violent confrontation with the British Army. Given such a situation, you haven't got enough people mobilized to achieve a non-violent change. And so...the zealots resort to violence. Whether they succeed or not...and they may...a whole lot of innocent people get killed, terrorized, and lose their property. I don't call that a very good way of achieving social change. Had the colonists resorted to non-violent forms of pressure on the crown in 1775 and had they mobilized sufficient numbers of people in that effort, the crown would have eventually granted every reform that the colonists were hoping for. And there would have been no revolution. And there would now be a representative and free democracy in the USA, just as there is in Canada. Therefore, I think Obama's promotion of non-violence is wise and judicious, even IF it is not true that violence never produced good results for people in getting their demands met. The American Revolution was an unnecessary conflict, and it resulted because of arrogant hardliners on both sides of the issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:39 PM I just think that if Obama wants to create an environment in which Muslims can feel free to trust Obama and the US government, he needs to be very careful to not insult their intelligence. And telling them that violence has never worked is something they are painfully aware is not true. He should have been respectful enough to realize that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: heric Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:45 PM Well said. That's what I would have said if I could write more clearly. (They've all heard of the Mujahideen.) Perhaps he had in mind to convey that the US would be taking that nonviolent viewpoint. . . for a while at least.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:50 PM Another glaring problem is when he says that America doesn't interfere with other countries' peaceful elections. (LOL!) And this, right after his vice president told the people of Lebanon right to their faces that continuing US economic aid to Lebanon would be dependent upon the results of their elections. This is especially insulting considering the results of the recent Israeli elections and our aid to that country being unconditional no matter what the Israeli government does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM Any need to question why the nation of Israel has gone into the highest, most thorough "practice alert" in its history...and they chose this week to do it in?
Sincerely,
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:13 PM My guess would be political theater. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bobert Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:21 PM Well, I am waiting for then usaual suspects to add their consternative critiques... We all know who they are... Guess they are waiting for Rush to teach them the new company fight song... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:23 PM He makes me proud to bbe an American, for the first time in a very long time. It was like he lanced a festering boil today. Maybe now some healing can start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: pdq Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM Well, everybody agrees on one thing: Obama can deliver a speech. Here are a couple of points he made in The Speech: "The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America's goals, and our need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al-Qaida and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not go by choice; we went because of necessity. I'm aware that there's still some who would question or even justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: Al-Qaida killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet al-Qaida chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with." "So America will defend itself, respectful of the sovereignty of nations and the rule of law. And we will do so in partnership with Muslim communities which are also threatened. The sooner the extremists are isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all be safer." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:59 PM The sooner extremists everywhere are isolated and unwelcome, the sooner we will all be safer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:12 PM Obama is working (as he must) within the limits of the political situation, the limits of what's possible...and he's stretched America's perceived limits of possibility considerably farther in that respect. That's a good thing. Remember: "Politics is the art of the possible." To expect him to totally satisfy any one particular point of view would be unrealistic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:19 PM "Obama is working (as he must) within the limits of the political situation, the limits of what's possible...and he's stretched America's perceived limits of possibility considerably farther in that respect." Exactly. He's used words and terminology that no previous administration has felt able to. It was a milestone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:25 PM DOn't forget that one of the most famous advocates of violence in history was Muhammed himself, who used it to change the religions of tribes all across the Middle East in a sweeping series of physical conquests. I suppose you could say it was successful, but the cost benefit ratio might seem skewed to some. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: bobad Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:27 PM I liked this part of the speech: "For decades then, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive. It's easy to point fingers — for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought about by Israel's founding, and for Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth: The only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: gnu Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:29 PM The rich subjugate the poor. It's in their best interest. Will it change? gnightgnu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: GUEST,mg Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:31 PM I don't know. I think it is not in the best interest of the rich for there to be poor people, but rather a pretty satisfied group of yeoman who provide a stable underpinning for society. And if there is not desparate poverty to escape, there is a great motivator for becoming filthy rich, as opposed to safe and prosperous, gone. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:43 PM Actually, it's in everyone's best interests to share in a relatively equal manner (not exactly...just relatively). If you visit a place where there is a vast gulf between the incredibly rich and the desperately poor...and you contrast it with a place where everyone or almost everyone is doing reasonably well...you'll see exactly what I mean about that. It is not in the true interests of anyone for there to be poor people. It makes life nasty and dangerous for the whole society in a great variety of ways. Misery creates further misery. A society is best off if everyone is at a decent level, materially speaking...and if everyone feels reasonably secure about their future. The same goes for a family, and a society is a very large extended family. A stupid and shortsighted rich person thinks he's better if almost all the rest are poor. A wiser rich person realizes he's far better off if everyone is doing well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:43 PM To single out Muhammad alone for being famous for spreading religion at the point of the sword is a bit one-sided, in my opinion. The history of the Christian religion (granted, it was a lot of people responsible, rather than just one, still... ) is just as bad, and if we are to believe the Old Testament, the Hebrew patriarchs are responsible for the first recorded total genocide of people of other religions/ethnic backgrounds. Granted, according to archaeologists, the Old Testament is largely fiction, but it's in the book and celebrated by many today. I don't think it serves any purpose to single out the Quran as being any bloodier than the holy books of any of the other major religions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:45 PM I think "Moslem' was a term from another age. It seemed to be the modern term for "Mohammedan" when I was growing up. I suppose older people might have a more negative view of Muslims, so that may be why the term "Moslem" might have a negative tone. I am so pleased to have this guy Obama as president. Could it be that he will will make significant advances toward healing our tarnished image in the world? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:56 PM There was a great deal of intertribal warfare occurring between scattered groups of Arabic peoples in Muhammad's day. What he did was no different than what was generally going on...except for this: he was better organized than the rest. His people were extremely well organized, bolstered by the new faith, and they succeeded in a series of military campaigns that united all those warring tribes under a single faith and gave the Arabs true nationhood for the first time. That's quite an accomplishment. Everybody spread religion at the point of the sword in ancient times, mostly because religion was inextricably tied in with all the other political imperatives that usually lie behind wars: land, trade rights, waterways,resources of all kinds, political dominion, money, control, ambition, powerful families...the usual stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Peter T. Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:55 PM I think the impressive thing about the speech was the scope of the discussion. Perhaps the most persuasive part of the speech was the part about 9/11 and Al-Qaeda. I think it is amazing that he very coolly took apart the whole Al-Qaeda rhetoric with the sheer evil of what they did -- and right in the middle of a Muslim country. That was very impressive: look, this is why we acted the way we did, both wrongly and rightly. I disagree completely with the approach (they should never have turned these terrorists into warriors, something Obama might have said, just to cut them down further to size), but I think it was a brilliant piece of forensic rhetoric. And in fact the whole speech was an exercise in forensics, which Obama does better than anyone else in the world -- his race speech was like this one. These are the facts we have to deal with: now let's work with them. It is his basic strategy, and we will see how it plays out. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM He has to be the most gifted public speaker I've ever seen, though I used to like to watch Gaylord Nelson. |
