Assuming my real name!

Subject: Assuming my real name!
From: Anne Lister (inactive)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:10 PM

In the light of the "closed threads" thread and discussions at Bude festival, I've decided to shed the name Tabster and become myself for all future Mudcat communications.

There have been reasons in other forums (fora?) to adopt an alias but not here on Mudcat.

Not sure if this ranks as BS as it's not really about music, but here it is.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

This place gets better and better.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM

Well done, Anne.


A

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:25 PM

I think its nice to know who people are even if only in type.
I also never quite understood what it is that "LC" does that winds people up to such an extent.
I admit I don't read every thread and somehow must miss the offending posts.
But I do try to treat people as I find them and IF "LC" is who I think is being referred to they seem nice,making positive comments re various performers.
Also would like to add I don't hold any deliberately racist views myself
and always assumed they would be excised from the threads as and when they were posted.
IS that not the case?
Cheers
Tim

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM

Also would like to add I don't hold any deliberately racist views myself

Does Lizzie? I've seen no evidence of it myself. In fact the one time I suggested that the more picturesque notions Englishness espoused by WAV and the BNP seemed to chime in with Lizzie's bucolic idyll she threatened me with legal action, and rightly so.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM

I was not implying that at all.
Its just another thing I have seen refered to on a dead thread that I have never actually come across myself.
Also received a pm from one of the people on here that I count as a friend,to the effect that they wont be posting for awhile because of the racist postings of some(Not LC).
I have not seen any.
There is quite a lot of quiet racism in the loveliest of our English towns and villages that I find offensive.
There seems to be a "nice" persons way of being racist among people who would be mortified to be classed as typical loutish racist thugs.
I am used to hearing the latter but always experience a shudder of disgust and disbelief at the former,because it tends to sneak up on unexpectedly.
Sorry,yes I agree that our own names are good enough for St Peter so should be ok for Mudcat...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:57 PM

BIG hug (I wasn't meaning you - but then you knew that didn't you!)

T xx

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:58 PM

I dont always agree,and often disagree with Lizzie Cornish,but like evey member of this forum,she has a right to express her opinions.,without being abused,some of the worst abuse comes from guests
Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Morticia
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:01 PM

Could we get back to welcoming Anne properly rather than using this thread to comment on other threads?

Hi Anne, glad you are 'outed' *G*

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: ClaireBear
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:02 PM

Hello, Anne! Well done.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:04 PM

Thanks, Anne. Hope it becomes a trend!

Regards

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM

Congratulations, Anne. I used to post as Nigel Spencer, which as you can see, is an anagram of my real name, Spleen Cringe. Enjoying your last album, by the way.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Beer
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:12 PM

Good for you Anne. My name is
Adrien

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:15 PM

Oh so THAT'S who you are Spleen. Why, if I might make so bold, did you decide to change? Most people go the other way.

And why, for that matter, do some people regularly change from one alias to another alias? All previous posts are renamed when you change, so it can't be to escape something - but it's certainly confusing if you're trying, as I do, to take people's personalities into account.

And can anyone advise why some people use different aliases on different web fora?

I've only just discovered that some of the people here are also on the BBC site, but with different monnikers. If I'd only known who was who I'd have saved myself a lot of trouble!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Anne Lister (inactive)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM

Thank you to all the welcomers and yes, Tom, I did know it wasn't me that you were referring to. (And thanks for the hug!) It was simply that this tied in with chats in Bude with various people and I had thought it would be a good time to change in any case. Probably long overdue!

Anne

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:37 PM

I use my real name just about everywhere else on the internet. However, when I first joined Mudcat (making the move from regular lurker and guest-poster), I was persuaded by a long-time member (my "sponsor," so to speak) to adopt a fake name. So I did.

If and when I start playing and singing as a commercial enterprise, not just as an occasional close-to-home "hobby," I'll have a reason to change over to my real name for publicity purposes. As things stand now, it hardly matters.

I, too, found it intriguing to learn that when a Mudcatter changes his/her name, the change is relected throughout the archives. I think I first noticed when Bruce Murdoch changed his alias from his real first name ("Bruce," or maybe it was "Brucie") to "Peace." Later, I figured out that the dreaded "Martin Gibson" had not disppeared from the forum (as I had thought) but instead had renamed himself as "Almost Famous."

I had always thought that "Martin Gibson" was a great alias; too bad the person attached to it was so abrasive and made so many enemies. I don't think he has continued posting very much, if at all, since his name-change ~ but his many, many postings in the archives are all now labeled with the new rather than the old name.

It can be confusing to read old messages referring to "what so-and-so said," and then not to find the name "so-and-so" attached to any previous posting. As someone who provoked a lot of controversy and backtalk, Martin Gibson was often quoted, referred-to, and reviled in many threads. It didn't take long for me to figure out that the messages labeled as being from "Almost Famous" were his.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM

Ms. Lister, you have been among those whose "cover" has been pretty well blown for a long time anyhow. : / (That's a smiley with Bell's Palsy, the best I can do at the moment)
I dipped my toe at the "Cat" as my first forum experience and adopted my moniker as it seemed most were doing so. At least some of the folks know by now that my name is Dean Elkins.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM

Welcome Anne - I'm enjoying your CD.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM

Given the way that Facebook harvests data it is wise to have a completely fictitious persona there.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:41 PM

Hi, Anne -
I've always used my real name, because that's the name my fans know me by....er, well, if I had and fans, that's how they'd know me. But anyhow, I like being Joe Offer.
HOWEVER, I see that you changed your name by taking out a new membership (#23,364), without laying Tabster properly to rest. The preferred way to change your user name is simply to be logged in under the old name, and then go to Membership and change your name (making sure the membership form retains all the other old information that doesn't need updating).
Since you've taken out a new membership with the name you want to use, it gets a little more complicated. You first have to rename the new membership to something like Anne Lister (inactive), and then log onto the old membership and change the name. If you have more than one membership. please contact me and let me know which one(s) I can close.

Thanks.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:47 PM

I am, and always have been (at least since I left the bosom of my family and could drop the odious 'Arthur'), Art Brooks. I don't capitalize it here, and I run it together, since my first or second post here when I was jumped by someone else with the same first name for ending a post with "Art".

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I've never had any reason to use an alias.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:04 PM

I changed my name years ago since there is nothing I would say in here that I wouldnt say in the real world.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

I use my handle because many people have difficulty spelling Deirdre!

So, in real life, I get called Paul, Fred and alot of unmentionable names too.

Deirdre

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:20 PM

It's a good way to go, but in my case there is another John Barden who lives in Germany and is a 'Folk Singer'. So I really didn't want to get people mixed up and, being as I live in Kent, I adopted 'The Barden of England'. I do however always sign of as 'John Barden' as I feel it's only polite and there can be no doubt - I suppose I could be 'GUEST - John Barden', but of course that could be my German namesake.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM

Hello Deerdry errr Deardree errrr
Hows it going mate?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: treewind
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM

I'd use my real name, but there's another Anahata on Mudcat.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:29 PM

I use my real name, Jeff Lewis, elsewhere, including fRoots. I thought handles were de rigeurhere , so used my Exmouth Shasntymen crew name, which quite a few know me by anyway. I must admit that I often enjoybthe inventiveness of the monikers ( Spleen Cringe is a great anagram) but have no strong feelings on the matter.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:44 PM

Thanks, Tug. It was that or "Genre Pencils", but when the genre is folk, I'd have had to spend too much time sharpening them...

Tom, good question, and one to which I no longer have a valid answer... other than I like my alias and Nigel is one of those names a) that sounds like it should belong to a mobile hairdresser from Essex and b) that people always want to make plans for.

Cheers,

Nigel

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:57 PM

Hi Anne! Phil Edwards here.

I've been posting online in various forms since the mid-90s, and until I came to Mudcat I never, ever, ever used a pseudonym. I posted as Phil Edwards on the Fortean Times mailing list, in soc.history.what-if, in comp.software.year-2000, in alt.folklore.urban, on several different blogs and probably in other places I've forgotten. It was a real point of pride. The only reason I switched was that I liked Sedayne's "Insane Beard" handle - and I thought, since I'd been taking all that pride in sticking to my real name all this time, it might do me good to loosen up and play with the pseudonym kids for a bit. I became Pip by running my name through an anagram generator (using 'Philip' rather than 'Phil' to make life easier); it came up with 'Lewd' Pip Radish, which I rather liked. Then I dropped the 'Lewd' and here we are.

Course, none of this will make any sense in a year's time, when I've changed my handle to Ramblin' Jack Rumpo and Mudcat has automagically propagated it back through the archives.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM

Well done Anne! Looking forward to making your acquaintance and hearing your music at Faldingworth Live in August.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

It would be helpful if name-changes could be flagged or cross-indexed in some way. Trying to PM Sean/Sedayne/Sean in Beard/Sand in a Beer/Andes Ribena/Abaneser Id/Braden in Sea/Seen in da Bar/Sweeney Pibroch the Demon (Jew's) Harper of Fleetwood can be a frustrating experience, as searching for old names just produces a "none found" result. Would it be possible to return the "new" name to such searches?. (I could just go round the corner and talk to him, but then why did I spend all this money on computers, broadband, etc, etc, etc and so on ad infinitesimal, mutter, mutter).

Oh, all right, I'll go down to the Steamer and see him there - problem solved (plus they've got beer).

Ross

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM

What date in August are you doing Faldingworth, Anne?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Liz Randall
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM

What a relief. Hence forth I can be me, not Guest Croc. (That membership must have got lost somewhere.)So hello world.
Liz Randall

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Anne Lister
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM

I've now followed instructions and you'll see that the unnecessary additional membership has now been tagged "inactive" - but I'm not.

I haven't really been under deep cover at any point on Mudcat and have nearly always signed my name to posts anyway, but it's very nice to be greeted by those greeting me on this thread and to learn some of your real names. All I'll say of the reasoning behind mine is that it goes back to the old days of Compuserve forums where being female seemed to be an invitation to receive a lot of unnecessary mail on off-topic subjects. I tried to be "Bard" and then was savaged by a mod who assumed that was a male name and that I was somehow lurking under an assumed sexuality for some nefarious purposes (the mind boggles!). So I went for something different, and after the Compuserve experience thought it would be easier on Mudcat to keep that name instead.

Faldingworth - yes, that's 29th August and I'm looking forward to it. Also looking forward to seeing some of you at the West Somerset folk festival, some perhaps at Glastonbury (I'm storytelling in the Green Futures field), some at Broadstairs and some at the wonderful Anonyma reunion gigs in Walthamstow, Llantrisant, the Millennium Centre in Cardiff, St Dogmael's and Bude.

Plugs over!

Anne

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:10 PM

Hello Liz Randall!
This closet seems to be built on the tardis principle.
LOL

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Alice
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:11 PM

Hi, Anne, I've always been Alice, 'cause that's my name!
Nice to have your real name.

Alice Flynn in Montana

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:16 PM

IMHO, at the moment, the problem with aliases on Mudcat is that it allows, or at least facilitates, subsets of members to indulge in abuse, sometimes - but not always - mutual, based on their non-mudcat acquaintance. I doubt if there is much can be done about it, given the general Mudcat ethos - but if you feel like lighting candles, turning prayer-wheels or indulging in other forms of votive behaviour in the hope that they will outgrow this schoolyard carry-on - you have my blessing, at least!

Regards

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM

I have many names:
Names of power;
Names of mystery;
Names of splendour;
Names of shame;
Some call me Mr Ra
Others call me Mr Re
You call me Mr Mystery!

(Herman Poole Blount aka Sonny Blouhnt aka Le Son'y Ra aka Sun Ra)

*

In the common law a man may be known by whatever name he chooses.

(Brian O'Nolan aka Flan O'Brien aka Myles na gCopaleen)

*

My Gong Family name, bestowed upon me by Daevid Allen (aka Dingo Virgin aka Bert Camembert aka Divided Alien aka Psycho de Lick), is Scene Breeding.

*

The Names of the Hare

the man that should the hare meet / will never come to have him beat / unless he lay upon the ground / that which he carries in his hand / be it staff or be it bow and bless him with his elbow / and with right good devotion he shall speak this orizon / in honour of the hare / then will he better fare...

a hopper of ditches / a cropper of corn / a wee brown cow / with a pair of leather horns

the hare / the scutter / the big / the bouchart / the scuffler / the robber / the rascal / the racer / the way-beater / the hairless / the go-by-ditch / the grimer / the wimont / the bulger / the steal away / the mumbler / the ill-to-meet / the scutt / the dew creature / the grass biter / the late at home / the treacherous / the friendless one / the wood-cat / the broad gazer / the broom cat / the purblind / the furze cat / the croucher / the west gazer / the wall eyed / the side gazer / likewise the hedge chaser / the stub-deer / the long ear / the straw beast / the lecher / the wild beast / the leaper / the short beast / the lurker / the wind swift / the skulker / the hare shagger / the hedge cowerer / the dew duck / the dew hopper / the sitter / the grass hopper / the fittle foot / the fold sitter / the light foot / the fern sitter / the cabbage deer / the weed cropper / the go by ground / the sit still / the peg tail / the turn to hill / the swift away / to make afraid / the white of womb / the go with lambs / the chump / the jowler / the miser / the peasant / the make unrest / the break word / the snub nose / the shaven / his chief name is villain

when the hare dies the fox mourns: when the hare rises the falcon swoops / hold with the hare and run with the hounds

oh the stag with the leathery horns / the animal that lives in the corn / the animal that all men scorn / but the animal that no one dare name / oh the animal that no one dare name

oh the blood more stirs: to rouse a lion than to start a hare / hold with the hare and run with the hounds / watch the tree and await the hare / aye watch the tree and await the hare / don't loose the falcon til you see the hare / a hare is a hare / when the hare dies the fox mourns: when the hare rises the falcon swoops

aye the stag with the leathery horns / the animal that lives in the corn / the animal that all men scorn / but the animal that no one dare name / aye the animal that no one dare name

a wee brown cow

and when all this you have spoken / then the hare's might is broken / then you can journey forth / east and west / and south and north / whatever way a man will / a man that has any skill / and now good day to you Sir Hare / so well may God let you fair / that you come to me alive / above black furrows / beneath winter skies

The bulk of the above is a Middle English poem consisting of pejorative names to fling at a hare and thereby gain power over it; much of the translation was done for me by Thor Ewing, but several lines remain from the translation at it appears in The Leaping Hare by David Thomson and George Ewart Evans (Faber 1972) which also supplied the various proverbs that make up the rest of the text. The chant (hopper of ditches etc.) is a riddle about the hare from Country Antrim that echoes the sentiments of the Middle English poem. The sequence beginning Oh the blood more stirs... consists of vaious proverbs about the hare from around the world. The last line as it appears in the original poem reads that you come unto me dead, either in onion broth, or just in bread; the alteration is, of course, my own. As from tomorrow morning, you can hear this as part of Jesus at the Zoo.

*

Now, stop reading this and go to This Thread Here and follow the link to Rapunzel's setting of Bonny Parker's poem Outlaws - Billy the Kid and Clyde Barrow. It really is rather good.

*

Oh - and Ross - we're having a night in tonight; I'll give you a bell tomorrow noonish...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM

Top marks go to Suibhne O'Piobaireachd for that post *LOL*

.......... Rifleman

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:08 PM

Hello, Anne and welcome Liz who used to be Guest Croc!

The first name I use on Mudcat isn't my birth name, but it's the first name that just about everyone calls me.

"Azizi" is an African free name that was given to me in 1967 to affirm my connection to my African ancestry. In accepting this name, I followed a few famous African American athletes, musicians, and authors in the new cultural tradition of replacing their European or Hebrew names with Arabic names or traditional African name (mostly Swahili, Akan, or Yoruba). Changing your first (and less often sometimes also your last name) to an Arabic name might have been done to mark that person's conversion to Islam. But often (as in my case) selecting an Arabic and/or a traditional African name had nothing at all to do with religion, but "just" demonstrated our pride in our African heritage.

Azizi
is the KiSwahili female form of the Arabic female name "Aziza". In both Arabic and Swahili the male form of the name "Aziz". Because l know that I'm a female and because I've lived with the name "Azizi" so long, it sometimes surprises me that folks on Mudcat don't know that I'm a woman. For that reason, I sometimes sign my name "Ms. Azizi". And when I feel playful or when I'm really serious and want to make sure that people know my race, I might sign my name "Sista Azizi" (note the hip-hop spelling of the word "sister"). And when I want to be real formal, I might sign my name "Ms. Azizi Powell" or "Azizi Powell".

Any of these names are much more me than the first name that I was given at birth. As to what that name is (since I never legally changed it), it doesn't really matter because I only use that name for legal purposes. And I'm only called by that name when I go home to visit my mother and my siblings. My birth name doesn't fit me anymore. In my soul, I have become an "Azizi".

All of this to say that I'll never use my birth name on Mudcat, but I still use my real name.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

Were you to Google my name, Dave Sutherland, you would be faced with countless references to a young singer/songwriter who it appears was born some 300 miles further South than I was and some thirty plus years later. From what I have heard of him he is also considerably more talented. Therefore I'm sure that he wouldn't want to be confused with some old Geordie traddie.
While I have never been abusive to anyone on Mudcat (yet) or in a folk club or festival over the last forty odd years, when I joined Mudcat everyone appeard to have cat names and I just followed suite.
Anyway it's the name by which I'm known at work.
(If anyone is interested it's seven pages into Google before you'll find me; doing a piece on Show of Hands of all people!!)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:24 PM

Suibhne O'Piobaireachd, I didn't see your post before submitting mine. Sun Ra was one of the African American musicians who changed their names during the beginning of the Black Nationalist era.

I meant to also say that one reason why fewer African Americans changed their birth names after 1980, is that more babies were given Africanist (either traditional Arabic or traditional African names or Arabic derived, and African derived birth names (some of which are/were created by blending Arabic with and European names (for instance the male name "Jamar" which is a blend of the Arabic male name "Jamal" and the English male name "Lamar").

**

Suibhne,(I'm respectfully asking) would you please post how to pronounce your first and last name?

Thanks,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:24 PM

Hello Anne ,I really like using my real name . Between music and pottery its just easier for me . I am a fan of many people in here who dont use their names . Its been fun finding them out over the years .. All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: ranger1
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM

I read the new member FAQ when I joined and it suggested using a handle and not my own name, so I followed the suggestion. And I had a problem with a stalker in the past (pre-mudcat), so I'm quite happy not using my real name in a public forum.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:42 PM

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

Azizi -

Sean has probably clocked off for the night (it's past midnight here). His latest name (Suibhne) is an Irish Gaelic name usually rendered and pronounced as "Sweeney" in English. A closer approximation to the Gaelic pronunciation would be "Swivney". The other bit (o'Piobaireachd) has two parts - "o'" before another name is an Irish Gaelic signifier for "son of" - equivalent to Mac, Mc or M'; "piobaireachd", sometimes rendered as "pibroch", pronounced "pee-broch", emphasis on the first syllable, "ch" soft in the back of the throat as in "loch" or "Bach" rather than the hard "ck" in "lock" or "back", is a Scottish Gaelic word for the classical music of the Highland bagpipe, a very highly developed style of solo playing.

As to why - I believe he may have attempted to elucidate (or obfuscate) that in another thread (try clicking on his name to find his other contributions)- it's more than I can do at this time of night!

Ross

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM

Thanks, Ross.

I'm sorry. I forgot about the time difference.

I appreciate that explanation.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: BobKnight
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:38 PM

So, what happens if you revert to your own name and nobody knows who you are anyway? :)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:39 PM

I'm all for real names, especially when it's a name I can pin to a person I've met in the real world - though when it comes to total strangers ion the other side of the world the pseudonyms chosen can sometimes tell you more about them than a real name might.

But what's with Anne's name being tagged as "(inactive)"? Say it ain't so, Anne!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:56 PM

I have been Terry 'Leadfingers' Silver since I 'stole' the Boxer Parody as an Introductory song for Club Gigs ! (Thanks Fred) in about nineteen seventy .
I just dropped the outside bits when I joined this site .

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:23 AM

Suibhne (Sweeney) is from the Mad-Bird King of ancient Irish literature. In the story he's turned into a bird by the curse of a saint (or someone who later became a saint) and is forced to flit in the wilderness giving rise to one of the most chilling psychological dramas I've ever read, all the more so as the narrative prose is shot through with some of the most beautiful nature poetry ever written. Various translations extant - my favourite is by Seamus Heaney (Sweeney Astray) and Flan O'Brien features his own masterful translations of the Sweeney verses is his novel At Swim Two Birds, where Sweeney figures as one of the ready-made characters. For a complete on-line translation see HERE. Crucial stuff. I also take the name Sweeney in tribute to the late Glen Sweeney of the Third Ear Band whose inspiration is eternal.

Piobaireachd (Pibroch) is the classical music of the highland bagpipe, reputedly evolved from earlier improvised harp music akin to Indian ragas. Whatever the truth of that, Piobaireachd is the only classical music truly indigenous to these islands and there are certain structural analogues with Ragas, especially with regard to duration. In my childhood I was mesmerised by piobaireachd of up to 30-minute duration with evocative titles such as The Desperate Battle of the Birds and The End of the Great Bridge. Needless to say this epic droning disconcertingly eventless music impacted greatly on my soul where it remains most vividly. In later years I heard Ken Hyder's Talisker developing free-jazz pibroch for keening clarinets and droning double-basses; Ken even cut an album with Dick Gaughan (Fanfare for Tomorrow) where they do a similar free-form pibroch with Dick playing electric guitar. Awesome stuff, if critically reviled - by the folk press anyway, suitably bewildered by their darling Gaughan venturing into the free-jazz wilderness! Love it.

So - Suibhne O'Piobaireachd, pronounced as Sweeney O'Pibroch - a name I've been using for 20 years now, though the first recorded instance is on the letters page of the Jan/Feb 1991 issue of Folk Roots...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:03 AM

I use my real name - but often get abuse from another poster who seems to have a grudge against me. So I just don't contribute much.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Crane Driver
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:17 AM

Here in the UK, it's not a good time to be known as 'Andrew McKay', so I'll stick with 'Crane Driver' for now.

You can find out why I chose that name at our website here if you search deeply enough.

A*dr*w M*K*y

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM

Welcome, Anne - I, too, am enjoying your most recent CD.

Croeso iawn !

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:52 AM

For the record my real name would also appear to be unpronounceable - Sean Breadin - at least in regions of SE Northumberland where I grew up (spent my childhood anyway, I fear I never did actually grow up). Even some teachers would call me SEEN, and no one ever gets the surname right. This used to hack my grandfather off so much he took to dropping the E (!) to assist people in the correct pronunciation. The best ever was a course tutor who pronounced it (with no little authority on the matter) as Bree-ah-din, with the stress on the last syllable, making it sound Arabic. Because of this, and the compounded embarrassment it caused me as a kid, I've always hated it; in fact the best thing that can be said about it is that it's a good name for anagrams: Bed Sin Arena, Sea and Brine, Aniseed Barn, Bean Sardine, Idea Banners...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:04 AM

I quite like being TheSnail. As others have said, when I joined it seemed to be the done thing to have a nickname. If I changed it now, it would make a nonsense of a lot of the jokes, backchat and insults that have passed my way.

I shall endeavour to remember to sign each post with my real name which I think most people know anyway.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:19 AM

Welcome Anne. I now regret having starte out as "El Greko", and thought early on that I should let people grapple with the real thing and I should stand by my convictions (nothing proven, M'lud!).

Now, if I can only find how to use Greek characters in my handle...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Nick
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:04 AM

áâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øù
ÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÓÔÕÖ×ØÙ

That sort of thing, George?

I've always been Nick_ because it's my name. Had to do the underscore as Nick wasn't available.

If you go to Start - Programs - Accessories - System Tools - Character Map all will be revealed

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:05 AM

My real name is Shirley

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:08 AM

Shirley Nott?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Banjiman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:10 AM

It's actually worked the other way round for me.... quite a few people whom I meet in "real life" now call me Banji. (when they're being polite)

Like others when I joined Mudcat it was the done thing to have a Mudcat handle. Alot of people know that I am Paul Arrowsmith, I'm not trying to be anonymous. Do I really need to change it?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM

Hi Paul

I do feel people who book guests or write reviews etc. should think about using their real names, and the more power they have the harder I feel they should think about it.

As an artist, how would you feel if you'd crossed swords with someone on here only to find yourself in all innocence sending them a CD, or ringing themfor a gig, or worst of all stopping at their house?!

As you say, a lot of people know who you are, but not everyone, and certainly not someone who is new to gigging, and/or to Mudcat.

I know you don't personally get involved with the scraps, but I do feel we should think about the wider issues.

Tom

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Joe G
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM

For the record I am Joe Grint - a number of you will know that - those who don't probably don't know me anyway. I appreciate the point that Tom makes as I am a reviewer for Yorkshire folk mag Tykes News and book artists for Raggalds Acoustic & Queensbury Music Festival.

However I try to make a point of not being rude to artists (or anyone else for that matter) here (I must confess some of my early reviews in Tykes were a bit harsh but I try to avoid that now). I may have failed to follow this rule on a few occasions but I hope not. Therefore I would probably prefer to stick to my alias (given that it is fairly representative of my name!)
Interesting discussion & nice to know people's names!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:11 AM

Ãéþñãïò ÐáðáõãÝñçò might look OK here, Nick, but not as my handle - see the mess it's made... I'll change it back Joe, don't hit me yet!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:12 AM

Assuming my teal name was theleveller, that's what I'd post under.

Any other assumptions will just cause confusion. Anyone who knows me, knows who I am (you know who you are).

If you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:12 AM

Nope - it looks like Ãéþñãïò ÐáðáõãÝñçò instead. Back to boring old latin characters...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:19 AM

You touched on the reason it is not a good idea to have the moderators names known. They would become instant targets.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:28 AM

I disagree strongly. Very strongly.

Mel Ledgard on the BBC is identified, but is never a target. She speaks softly because she's a nice tactful person, but she also carries a big stick.

Joe does the same thing here. Is he an instant target? No.

If people want to join in the discussions and be free to speak their minds without worrying about any consequences then they should obviously not be moderators.

That doesn't mean there is no need for known moderators, who are prepared to take on the responsibility and act accordingly.

Tom

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Banjiman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:35 AM

Tom,

I take your point. I'll give it some more thought.

You seem (quite rightly) to be asking people to take responsibility for their postings and their roles on here and in real life.

Can I politely enquire why you remain a guest?

As was shown on another thread this potentially poses risks for the poster (being impersonated) and on the otherhand makes it all to easy for someone to use multiple identities and avoid responsibility for their postings.

Paul Arrowsmith

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:53 AM

It never occurred to me to use other than my real name. What I've always disliked about the 'aliases' is that in most cases I've no idea who they really are yet I probably know (or know of) some of them.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:02 AM

I was joaniecrumpet for some considerable time on Mudcat, because my real name is Joan Crump and I figured that was fairly transparent (it's also my name on the BBC board). I became Ruth Archer because of a very silly thread involving an everyday story of countryfolk, as broadcast on Radio 4. At the time, I believe the "real" Ruth Archer was having it away with the cowman, and it was great fun assuming her identity (and her Northumbrian accent) for a while. But then I liked her so much she kind of stuck, and I think it's really funny now when I get called Ruth at festivals, often by people I don't even know.

So there we are. I like Ruth, so she's sticking around.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:08 AM

"I do feel people who book guests or write reviews etc. should think about using their real names, and the more power they have the harder I feel they should think about it."

I can't speak for every programmer, but I certainly don't base my booking policy on what I read on Mudcat. I book artists (or not) for a lot of reasons, but their personal opinions and views, no matter how heatedly expressed, don't come into it.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:12 AM

Hi Paul

As I've said often before, I remain a guest because I'm deeply uncomfortable about the very situation we are discussing. I do not feel able to become a member, and so endorse the status quo, while it's accepted that powerful people may post under aliases and even join in the bullying.

I went to a very brutal public school, where violence and abuse was institutionalised, so this is something I feel strongly about.

I would also like to see a change in policy re moderation, because I'm alarmed by the bad PR generated by this website for the folk industry, as I have said both here on the board, and privately to the team.

Tom

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:17 AM

"I can't speak for every programmer, but I certainly don't base my booking policy on what I read on Mudcat. I book artists (or not) for a lot of reasons, but their personal opinions and views, no matter how heatedly expressed, don't come into it."

I've very glad to hear it Joan, but I hope you also take on board my comment to Paul above:

"As an artist, how would you feel if you'd crossed swords with someone on here only to find yourself in all innocence sending them a CD, or ringing themfor a gig, or worst of all stopping at their house?!"

I don't know if you know how hard it is out here trying to hack a living, ringing strangers night after night trying to secure work. My sympathies lie with the little guy out in the cold knocking on the door while hearing the battle within.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:19 AM

I am Spartacus

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Banjiman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:37 AM

Ruth siad:

"I can't speak for every programmer, but I certainly don't base my booking policy on what I read on Mudcat. I book artists (or not) for a lot of reasons, but their personal opinions and views, no matter how heatedly expressed, don't come into it."

I was going to say the same thing myself. I've booked (and the band and my wife have been booked by) people who I have had robust debates with or about here on Mudcat. I value these debates even when people get passionate about a point of view that differs from my own. It's not that difficult to seperate the 2 things out.

I might think twice about booking someone who has been exceptionally insulting to me on here.... but only because I fear they might do the same thing to our audience. No one has been that rude to me though (yet!). Do you think using my real name would really change this so much?

I do agree with you that some contributors should temper their posts..... but many people who I would ask to do this use their real names anyway!

Paul Arrowsmith

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Banjiman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

Tom said

"I don't know if you know how hard it is out here trying to hack a living, ringing strangers night after night trying to secure work".

Yes I do actually! I watch Wendy doing it several evenings each week.... while I put the kids to bed! I have to indulge myself in it as well as I seem to have the role of getting gigs for the band.

It still doesn't worry me too much if the people we are phoning use a Mudcat name on here though.

Paul Arrowsmith

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

Suibhne:
Suibhne (Sweeney) is from the Mad-Bird King of ancient Irish literature. In the story he's turned into a bird by the curse of a saint (or someone who later became a saint) and is forced to flit in the wilderness giving rise to one of the most chilling psychological dramas I've ever read, all the more so as the narrative prose is shot through with some of the most beautiful nature poetry ever written. Various translations extant - my favourite is by Seamus Heaney (Sweeney Astray) and Flan O'Brien features his own masterful translations of the Sweeney verses

So, is 'Seamus Heaney' a pen name, intended to be reproduced as 'S Heaney' and possibly read as 'Sweeney'?

Have we uncovered an elaborate but unrecognised pun here?

Nigel (and No, Spleen Cringe, I'm not a hairdresser from Essex!)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM

Well, Tom, considering the sheer number of CDs that drop through my door and e-mails I receive directing me to artists' Myspace pages (I try not to give out my phone number, to be honest), I don't think many find me particularly unapproachable. If they do maybe it's a good thing, as I already get more enquiries then I could ever hope to answer, let alone book. I've also had offers of work through Mudcat, and booked artists that I've met through Mudcat.

I have always been very transparent about who I am on Mudcat and would be surprised if any UK artists felt that I was concealing my identity. I also don't think that what someone does for a job should prevent them from being allowed to have an opinion or indeed express it in cyberspace.

As I say, nothing I've ever seen on any messageboard - from artists who publicly take magazines to task for not reviewing their CDs, to others who indulge in endless and tedious self-indulgent sermonising about the folk industry and its ills - would prevent me from booking someone. I make such decisions on artistic grounds alone.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:23 AM

I can see the point in NOT using your real name, as especially on Mudcat, its easy to get involved in an argument that gets out of hand. If you are an artist, part of the reason for being on forums is to spread your name around, but you do have to be very careful what you say.

I have never been able to do either (1. be very careful and 2) use a fictious name)

I understand why people do but I also despise it when people use a fictious name just to attack others and cause mischief - have vowed to myself not to post anymore on several occasions because of it.

However, its through Mudcat that I know such splendid folks/fXlks/FOLKS as Spleen and Ruth.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:32 AM

Paul, my question was directed to Joan, not you.

Joan, I fear you are missing my point. My concern is not how you feel about others, but about how others feel about you. You speak plainly, and sometime unnecessarily rudely.

For example why did you feel the need to put 'endless and tedious self-indulgent sermonising?'

Granted I'm often guilty of that, but I'm trying to make progress in a number of fields, and actually I have often done so, if you did but know it.

I'm not one to rise to provocation, but surely you can see that this is just inflammatory and unnecessary to the debate?

I know you'll never book me, so I'm prepared (now that you've got persona) to offer a robust defence. But others might not dare (and that's assuming they know who you are. If they don't they could feel very tricked). That's not healthy.

I'm sorry this now seems to be directed at you (because there are lots of people in your position) but surely someone with your clout shouldn't need to resort to insults? Can you not debate your point without personal jibes? Or are you just being humorous?

If so, I'll chortle gently for a little :-)

Tom

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:40 AM

Hi Matt!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:50 AM

No I am Spleeno!

I don't think Ruth was being rude, though I am sure she can defend herself.
Intelligent plain speaking is ok isn't it Tom?

The fact is that for quite a while, but spectacularly in recent times, the folk music lovers as represented on this site have been embaressing and doing a brilliant example of why nobody should be interested in the music if the chacacters of the people who purport to love it are anything to go by.

"Throw away that barge poll, we won't be needing it here."

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:52 AM

Sorry for my bad spelling

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM

Tom, there is absolutely no reason for you to assume I'd never book you and I don't know why you've got that impression (unless you're referring to your own self-imposed retirement). There are lots of people I like, but have still not booked yet. Too many good artists, too few spots.

I said "endless and tedious self-indulgent sermonising" because I felt I was being preached at, which never sits well with me. I felt you were being confrontational, so I responded in kind.

I know the risks of being quite straightforward on Mudcat - but what you see is what you get, as anyone who knows me would probably tell you. I'd like to think that my up-front, no-bullshit approach has made me a lot of friends on the folk scene, but I'm aware that it probably equally gets up some people's noses. I have strong opinions, but it's because I am passionate, and I am honest.

I have never, ever tried to hide my identity on Mudcat, so if you feel "tricked", I'm very sorry.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:15 AM

Joanie Cowperson used the quote (I haven't found from where/whom it comes):
I do feel people who book guests or write reviews etc. should think about using their real names

I have done both in the past and, additionally, stopped performing altogether when I was writing because I don't believe you should do both simultaneously. Trying to balance more than one hat on your head is asking for trouble.

When I first posted on Mudcat I used a pseudonym but it wasn't a very good one because everyone who knew me knew the reason why. (Think Child 68). I actually thought you had to use one, and was happy to do so as I was entering a fray in which a young performer was getting a hammering from "the old guard" so I thought it might work as a shit-proof umbrella. A while later, I ditched it. I've been around long enough and done so many different things that I feel I can stand by what I say and stick my name on it. When divergences arise it's invariably because a (usually pseudonymous) poster is lacking in accessibility to the vérité. Some listen to further explanation and pointers to where else to look. Others don't.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:36 AM

"I used a pseudonym but it wasn't a very good one because everyone who knew me knew the reason why. (Think Child 68)"

I always liked Fause Foodrage which is Child #89.....

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM

Yes, I guess is was preaching, but not specifically at you, Joan.

I do feel this is an important issue because it connects with the bigger problem of conflict on this web site, and I'd rather be seen to preach and get mature responses than to confront (I hope I was being tactful and non-specific, actually) and start a fight, or present in some casual way which is not taken seriously.

I've made progress with this approach so I'm willing to be taken to task for continuing with it.

No, I don't myself feel tricked (certainly not by you). But I have felt very uneasy sometimes when it's emerged that someone I'n having a problem with here turns out to have power over me. And I can empathise with others who may find themselves in a similar situation.

This thread is primarily about the use of names. You say "what you see is what you get" and I'd say, actually that's exactly what people don't get - at least not when they first arrive, or if they only pop in occasionally.

I thought your adoption of the name Ruth Archer was a brilliant device for that particular thread, and it worked very well indeed. 100% support for that. But it doesn't tell passers by (who are the majority of people here, I believe) and new posters that you book one of the biggest festivals in the country and sit on the board of EFDSS. I just don't feel comfortable with the potential for confusion.

I just feel the fact that people in positions of power can be intimidating under an assumed name (even if one is only witnessing it being done to someone else) is just not healthy.

Sorry - this wasn't meant to be about you.

I was making a case for Mudcat adopting a members-only policy, and strongly encouraging real names (though it would be wrong to insist, for the reasons given by others above).

I do agree that posting under your own name is no guarantee of good manners, but it might help to engender a better mood across the board, which would have a positive influence on the recidivists.

Tom

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

There are good points in your post, Tom. But one thing concerns me, and I've talked a lot about it privately with other members whose opinions I value. I do like to take part in a variety of discussions, but I don't necessarily wish to be speaking on behalf of the organisations I work for. I just want to be me. Take the recent Bert Lloyd discussion. I know that my views about the significance of Bert's dodgy attributions are not shared by Malcolm Taylor from EFDSS. If I have a discussion like that, I don't want people thinking my views represent those of EFDSS - they're just what I think.

For a while I thought maybe this meant that I shouldn't take part in discussions here at all. But other nice people convinced me that my participation as an individual was as welcome as everyone else's.

Maybe I should end each post with a disclaimer. :)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:40 PM

I understand what you're saying, and certainly agree that you should definitely feel free to post on any topic you like, and make your points forcefully if necessary - you have a lot of information to contribute and your point of view is as valid as anyone else's. But you could do that as Joan Crump could you not? As you say, most regulars know who you are anyway, and you can always issue a disclaimer ("my colleagues at EFDSS may not agree, but" if it really does become necessary.

I felt a little the same when I was involved with RadioBritfolk and later folkWISE, so I know where you're coming from.

Tom

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: meself
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:41 PM

Call me Ishmael.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM

everyone knows who I am,I often sign my name.,at the end of my posts.
the main problem recently[imo],has been the bullying of one particular member[who I frequently disagree with, but has aright to state his /her opinion]plus persistent abuse from a particular guest.
[imo]making Mudcat Members only,would not reduce this behaviour,every member needs to think and take a few breaths[even 30 minutes before responding].
Tom said: I just feel the fact that people in positions of power can be intimidating under an assumed name (even if one is only witnessing it being done to someone else) is just not healthy.I agree.
but they can be intimidating under their real name as well.
it is an abuse of their power,is arrogant and unnecessary,and frequently their acolytes and hangers on join in the fracas.
it is up to Mudcat members to learn to control themselves.and behave with politeness.
the rules of Mudcat state no personal attacks on other members .
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:02 PM

Just to be sure it's understood - there's nothing wrong with using a pseudonym at mudcat, and I'd recommend it particularly for women in many situations. It's the deceptive use of pseudonyms that's a problem. If you want to change your user name once, that's not a problem. If you want to change it every other week, that's another matter.
It's preferable to be a registered member and to be logged in, but it's not required - as lond as you use a consistent name when posting.

-Joe-

Subject: Lyr Add: TOO MANY DAVES (Dr. Seuss)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM

Anne Feeney did a great version of this, to the tune of "The Rakes of Kildare" - I think the idea came from DC Fitzgerald:

TOO MANY DAVES
Dr. Seuss

Did I ever tell you that Mrs. McCave
Had twenty-three sons and she named them all Dave?

Well, she did. And that wasn't a smart thing to do.
You see, when she wants one and calls out, "Yoo-Hoo!
Come into the house, Dave!" she doesn't get ONE.
All twenty-three Daves of hers come on the run!

This makes things quite difficult at the McCaves'
As you can imagine, with so many Daves.
And often she wishes that, when they were born,
She had named one of them Bodkin Van Horn
And one of them Hoos-Foos. And one of them Snimm.
And one of them Hot-Shot. And one Sunny Jim.
And one of them Shadrack. And one of them Blinkey.
And one of them Stuffy. And one of them Stinkey.
Another one Putt-Putt. Another one Moon Face.
Another one Marvin O'Gravel Balloon Face.
And one of them Ziggy. And one Soggy Muff.
One Buffalo Bill. And one Biffalo Buff.
And one of them Sneepy. And one Weepy Weed.
And one Paris Garters. And one Harris Tweed.
And one of them Sir Michael Carmichael Zutt
And one of them Oliver Boliver Butt
And one of them Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate...
But she didn't do it. And now it's too late.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:12 PM

Nice to see you under your real name Anne Tabster Lister. Thank you for the transparency

Jack's post points out another mudcat dilemma -- when I joined back in 90 something -- 96 maybe, there were many fewer people, and me, new to the internet, just used my given first name (after posting my email address a few times). This made it necessary for any Barbaras following me to pick a different name. Like BB or Barbara Shaw. I didn't realize it was a problem when I signed on, and gather I am generally known here by the name "Blessings Barbara" because that is how I sign my posts. I have thought of changing my name to that, but it seems presumptuous somehow.
And I don't use my real last name because I am not sure I want people googling me. I used to have an anonymous last name -- Brown -- but then I got married. I suspect if you look carefully enough through the forum you can find my last name, because I do sign it sometimes.
Blessings,
Barbra

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Thanks for that one Jack.

"Did I ever tell you that Mrs. McCave
Had twenty-three sons and she named them all Dave?

Well, she did. And that wasn't a smart thing to do.
You see, when she wants one and calls out, "Yoo-Hoo!
Come into the house, Dave!" she doesn't get ONE.
All twenty-three Daves of hers come on the run!

The local version in Bikenhehead is rather coarser,
And even worser.

When our neighbouhood "Mrs McCave" was asked by a puzzled Benefits clerk at the how she distinguished between all her progeny who shared the same first name, she looked blank for a minute before declaring:- "Oh, that's dead easy! I just call them in by their dad's last names!"

Matthew

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: BB
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:30 PM

Ah well, Barbara, perhaps I should try my proper name then - at least you haven't got it any more!

Barbara Brown

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:31 PM

Maybe we should be prepared to state our case ,when we believe that our point of view is valid,whoever the focus of our disagreement is?
Seems to me that you should be as likely to take someone up on their perceived error if they are famous,hold positions of power,or just a no body like me.
It seems a prerequisite of the potential bully that they need to ascertain the status of the one they disagree with prior to engaging.
Its a discussion forum and not a job interview.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM

100

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM

The reference to "Bikenhehead" in my previous post was of course meant to be to the 'One-Eyed City' of Birkenhead. My apologies to all concerned.

As a very minor player on Mudcat I post under my own real name. For one thing its a lot easier to remember.

Also I'm happy to stand by anything I've posted here in a personal capacity, and which my real life family (including my mother whose patience I have sorely tried over the years), my employer, or any member of the public might find.

However I have sometimes posted as a pseudonymous GUEST, never to make attacks on anyone, but rather because I wanted to let those posts stand on their own merit - and also out of a misguided spirit of mischief. In the new spirit of openness perhaps I should step forward. So if anybody is still remotely interested in the identity of a pheasant plucker AKA Pheasant Plucker or Storyteller, it was me. And once more, apologies to anyone I may have misled.

Matthew Edwards

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM

"It seems a prerequisite of the potential bully that they need to ascertain the status of the one they disagree with prior to engaging."

Tim, I assume you don't play music for a living? Trust me, it's not the prerequisite of the potential bully to know who they are talking to. It's the prerequisite any human being to know with whom they are talking, not least the working musician, who is totally at the mercy of people who make bookings and write reviews.

For example, I had assumed from Joan's posts here in the past that she had a very low opinion of me indeed, and also assumed that meant she'd be very unlikely to book me.

That didn't stopped me engaging with her before or since, or, for that matter continuing to approach her for gigs. But because I did know that Ruth Archer was in fact Joan Crump I was able to make an informed decision and proceed accordingly.

That's not always possible under the Mudcat system.

If everyone was always reasonable at all times, of course we should all be prepared to engage whenever necessary. But there are some people here who are neither reasonable nor fair (I'm NOT talking about Joan now ok?!), and who drive even the most level-headed and decent individual to distraction.

I just feel we should have 'have the honour of knowing' what we risk when we do decide to engage. That's not bullying. That's just common decency.

Tom

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM

the main problem recently[imo],has been the bullying of one particular member...

I must be not opening up the threads where that's been happening. Sort of reverse serendipity - accidentally avoiding the stuff you'd sooner avoid.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:04 PM

a) I like forum ID's, they are characterful and descriptive. I can only think of two 'real name' posters that I remember off the top of my head compared to the many monikered ones - real names are not memorable or distinctive.

b) This forum is also open to ANYONE who murks around in the shadows on the internet to listen in on, and far more people than choose to engage in discussion, prefer to lurk and listen. *They* don't have to give their real names, so I don't have a clue who I'm talking to. There are real freakoids out there among them.

c) When I communicate personally with people, I can and do give them my real name.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:26 PM

Hello Anne! Welcome! Mind, aah aalwez thought that 'Tabasco' suited ye! Aalwez thought ye wez hot stuff!

Seriously though, aah'd be happy te use me real name an' aall but aah though it wez de rigeur(?) te hev a psoo... soodon.... made up name!

So here goes

My name is George Wilson, and aah'm an alcoholic........ Oops!

Sorry!! Wrong meeting!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:35 PM

Tom.
I understand that you may feel it would be better re making a living for you and yours, not upsetting the ones who may be in a position to hire you or pass on the good word to others who may do so.
No I am not one of the ones talented enough to earn a living through music.(Talented or connected or born into according to your POV)
The phrase "have the honour of knowing' what we risk" that you used,(and I hope I am not taking it unfairly out of context.)
Just looks to me as if you could be saying that if someone is being a bit of a prat,or worse,but may be in a "position of power" then you would prefer to have the option of not taking them up on whatever the affront may be. Fine and up to you .
Another way of reading the same point of view is that if a person is not in agreement with you,and the power lies in your hands then....?
I believe a bully to be the one who uses their power to act against others purely by the fact of the superior power they can bring to bear.(Yogi?)
If someone is wrong they are wrong.
If someone is using their anonymity to spoil your chances of income or happiness that is wrong,and would have thought our moderators would attempt to sort that out for us.But if we are all gonna accept bad behaviour,and keep quiet just in case they are in that position of power?
Got no axe to grind with you mate and really is none of my business
but this is available for all to read so is sort of out in public.
Can also say that having heard you perform,you seem to have all the talent and application needed to make a go of things in music.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM

Sorry Mrs another digression from your thread.
I wont do it again.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

It's fascinating to see what's happening with this thread, which I had thought would be a simple, personal announcement.

Yes, all kinds of people read this forum, many of whom may not be members, and some of whom by the law of averages may be loopy, but in my case if anyone wants to find me, or more about Anne Lister, it's always been simple enough to google my name and as long as you avoid the 18th century lesbian you'll probably find me.

Everyone is, as always, free to make their own choice about whether or not to have a pseudonym. I think handles add a certain colour and I tend to agree that they're more memorable than real names, but I suppose like Tom I tend to think that if someone has a degree of "profile" either from performing professionally, writing or organising stuff then it's helpful to know who is behind the moniker. Which is why I nearly always signed my name to posts even while I was officially Tabster. (Where I didn't was generally when I was in a rush and forgot). I for one had no idea that Ruth Archer and Joan Crump were one and the same person - did it matter? Probably not, but I suppose if you have a group of people who do know and a group who don't then it generates a certain clique-y mentality.

Anyway, all of this burbling was meant to lead into the simple statement that my choice of action wasn't meant to determine anyone else's.

And the fascinating posts from some of you (thank you, Azizi!) leads me into my perennial quest for my "true" name (as opposed to "real" name).   I have a family nickname which is one of my identities (and no, I'm not posting that here) and I also have a married name for all official documents which means my poor middle-aged brain has to remember which name I've used for booking hotel rooms etc. My full name includes a first given name which I hardly ever use, but it means that I could operate under a given name and surname which would be unfamiliar to most of you. I've been tempted to write reviews under this name and see how long before I was rumbled! And then there are the various forums on which I have adopted a handle ... for Archers fans, for example, on the R4 message boards you'll find me as Friendly Local Dragon. When I'm teaching some places know me as Anne, some more formally under my married name but if they see my albums they'll know me as Anne Lister as well ...but maybe my "true" name is none of these!

I'll stop burbling now.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:22 PM

Mudcat simple?
LOL
its great to hear from you all whatever you're called.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:26 PM

I'm assuming my real name is Seamus Kennedy, though some days I'm not too sure.

Bartholomew Tinklebottom

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM

Well, your real name may be Seamus Kennedy. But tell us, Seamus, is it your true name?

I'm gonna have to think about that concept for a while, although I'm quite certain that my true name is Joe Offer. I changed it you know - it used to be Joey and/or Joseph, but that didn't fit.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM

I don't find pseudonomics more memorable than real names, even when I actually know the person. I stop and think . . . and blink, . . then possibly arrive at the correct identitiy. The very first time I met Leadfingers he was introduced to me as just that: "Terry Leadfingers" and I only found out later what his real name was.

There are two members who I know not at all in real life (at least I don't think I do); namely Gervase and Shimrod, who I confuse constantly as two sides of the same character. But I never imagined for a minute that people didn't know that Joan and Ruth were one and the same, any more than thinking people might be unaware of who "kytrad" or "greycap" are.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:04 PM

Sorry Anne, no criticism whatever of your choice. I just see a lot of (unusual for an internet forum - condidering monikers are the norm online - and for good reason too IMO - myself being one who has experienced murkers) uneccesary criticism at times from 'real namers' of the 'pseudonamers'. The most laughable recently, being a criticism of one pseudonemer of another... Like 'Doh!' ;-)

Apart from that, I do appreciate the value of an artist such as yourself, operating under thier 'real name'.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:23 PM

Ah, the deep philosophical question of what is our "real name" -

TS Eliot has something to say about that in relation to The Naming of Cats:

...But above and beyond there's still one name left over,
   And that is the name that you never will guess;
The name that no human research can discover -
   But THE CAT HIMSELF KNOWS, and will never confess...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:29 PM

Jeez, Joe, real name/true name?

MY BRAIN HURTS!

Seamus (?)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:38 PM

"But I never imagined for a minute that people didn't know that Joan and Ruth were one and the same, any more than thinking people might be unaware of who "kytrad" or "greycap" are."

Well I have no idea whatsoever, so I'm obviously not a thinking person LOL!!

I have been told or worked out lots of identities, but then quickly forgotten them again (because I have too many other things to think about)!

If you do come here often, and if you are minded to work out who is who, and then minded to remember, it's not that hard to do.

But there are two flaws in that. The first is that not everyone does engage, or even wants to engage at that level, and the second is that though using correct names is not a cure-all for 'bad' behaviour, a culture that encourages masks will also tend to encourage deceit and irresponsibility.

That said, in spite of my clerical persona here, I'm no web puritan. If things did not get so out of hand so frequently I'd be even more liberal than Max and Joe.

But steps do need to be taken. Encouraging (rather than insisting on) real names is something we can do ourselves. It needs no changes from Mudcat.

Which is why I gave Anne such a BIG hug!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:42 PM

Just passing through, as I just thanked someone for some song lyrics I happened to be googling for.

As someone who was back on the net in the early 90's - did someone mention Compuserve - I learnt to be discreet. On IRC you'd be plagued by young males asking "asl" (age, sex, location) and they'd get very stroppy when you asked them why they needed to know. Since I then "changed" my "s" [not my "a" alas] I've continued to be discreet!

songnotsinger

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: NormanD
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:42 PM

"Well, they often call me Speedo, but my real name is Mr. Earl"

Norman Druker

AKA Norm D. Plume

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:13 PM

Ah, now, the naming of cats is a whole nother subject. We've settled for naming ours the name she actually answered to - and continues to answer to.
Whether it's what other cats would call her, who knows.

Bit like Mudcatters, really.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:58 PM

Maybe there could be a roll call list somewhere where people could own up to their big world names, while keeping their pseudonyms by which they are more generally known on the Cat. Only if they feel like it, of course. Then the curious could check it out.

I have a feeling that for quite of a lot of people their Mudcat pseudonyms actually are their real names by now.

Superman, Clark Kent - which is his "real" name anyway?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:18 PM

Although I've made no secret of my "true identity," I'm afraid that mine is such a common name that the accomplishments of others who share that name might be improperly associated with my own sparse talents and accomplishments:

At least three serial killers, one mass murderer, one extortionist, a couple of fairly well-known athletes ...

And then there are the less reputable ones such as a dozen attorneys, three judges of whom I've heard, two (or more) historically significant ministers of gospel(s), several real estate agents, etc.

Besides which another member already was using my name, making it unavailable for me.

(And I don't know which one _{of the above} he is.)

John

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:20 PM

I can only think of two 'real name' posters that I remember off the top of my head compared to the many monikered ones - real names are not memorable or distinctive.

My name was a googlewhack when I last checked.

The last Mudcatter I've met in person was Zen. He told me his real name once but I forgot it instantly. I have enough trouble remembering people's names at all that nobody is going to get me remembering two of them.

I assumed "Joan Crump" was more likely to be a pseudonym than "Ruth Archer", so when somebody said they were the same I made the wrong association. If "Ruth Archer" is a character in the soap, I've no idea what sort of character, so I don't know what statement she's making.

Thinking up an ingenious fake name for a forum usually comes across as insulting condescension, telling the audience they're stupid because they don't get the allusion. My reaction is that I'm not prima facie very interested in reading what a person with that attitude might have to say.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:46 PM

I wasn't online in the days of Usenet, and when I started to go into online forums I was rather baffled by the custom of using pseudonyms - I couldn't (and still don't) see the point, in a world where everyone has a website and pages on Facebook and Myspace and Twitter. I've always posted using my real name, or a fairly recognisable version of it, partly because I've always felt I should be prepared to put my name to my opinions, but mostly because I can't be arsed to think up a nickname when I sign up to a new group.

I do find I am prepared to give more credence to those who don't hide behind pseudonyms, even though in some cases their real identity is not a secret. However I find the assumption that everyone knows posters' real names to be simply arrogant.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: jeddy
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:10 PM

jack, is that a cross between alluring and illusion?

my proper name is jade rose and my other halfs' name is edi(pronounced eddy) someone at festivals (uk) joined them together to aviod the mixing up of programmes and stuff and it has stuck, not trying to con people.
i am curious as to whom i am actually talking to but on here not knowing is part of the experience.
so good night from jade ( the short one with the big mouth)   lol x x

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Betsy
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM

Surname - Betts - Mudcat name Betsy - who gives a toss - Pete Betts - I thought the Mudcat "nom de plume" was fun, and that the fact that people thought I was female added to the fun - all is revealed but are we all any wiser ? I've had fun with sexists thinking that I was a female but if it makes some feel more comfortable - I've nowt to hide .

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:52 PM

Jack Campin, as I explained earlier, "Ruth Archer" came about in response to a thread. It was never meant to be a "statement", beyond assuming the identity of a particular character in a particular thread for a period of time, because it was funny. And it stuck. That's it.


"For example, I had assumed from Joan's posts here in the past that she had a very low opinion of me indeed, and also assumed that meant she'd be very unlikely to book me."

Tom, I've got absolutely no idea where that came from. I don't even remember ever having a conversation with you on Mudcat (though we've met on occasion in real life). I'm baffled, frankly.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:37 AM

I have never used any name but my own... Well one or two others for my businesses but I always sign my own name. I was never clever enough to come up with an imaginary name like Pip Radish or Kendall.

Don

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:22 AM

I agree with Crow Sister (5/6/09 03:04PM) - this forum is open to anyone and the world is full of nutters (we even have a few of them as members). Having been subjected, in the past, to some very unpleasant Kray-style harrassment by people (not Mudcatters!) who made some accurate guesses at family connections and got hold of my personal details, I try to be careful how much I give away about myself.

Members that I meet personally are aware of who I am, and some that I've struck up a friendship with through the forum too, but these are just people I trust. I have a circle of friends, of course, who know my identity - people like Sooz, The Villan, Muppitz, George P., Breezy, Eanjay et al.

I'm a performer (part-time and mostly unpaid) of limited talent, who has a comparatively well paid job in The Real World, and no pretensions to stardom or even becoming a full-time 'pro', I just sing and play because I love it. If I get a gig, great - if I don't, I still eat, clothe myself, drive my car, go on holiday, read a few books, live a happy life with Mrs. Fenswoman, so publicity is not something I care about.

As an aside (and as many probably know already), I was 'Strollin' Johnny', and I changed my handle to 'Backwoodsman' because that's what one of our especially unpleasant members called me in one of her vile-er tirades.

I admire anyone who chooses to 'come out', but it's not for me.

Anne - I'll introduce myself at Faldingworth. :-)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:01 AM

I gained an impression that the "backwoodsperson" was a component of a particularly neanderthal cabal from an excessively benighted corner of the English backwoods whose idea of a good night out was harassing women at music events. Indeed, they think that's what they are for. There are even some female members purporting to be women who go along with this. How regressively last century. How "vicars and tarts".

Fortunately there are just about enough people here who, like me, regard it as a serious forum for the exchange of musical information. Would that membership and a real-name policy could enforce that too and filter out the spam about "boysies" and related sexist shit.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,giles earle
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:35 AM

I was staggered how everyone in this thread seems to know all the other contributors. I'd assumed there must be many regular(-ish) guests and, I daresay, also some members whose real name would mean nothing whatever to anyone else.

Speaking as one of the complete unknowns, I can't really see that dropping my own habitual pseudonym would enlighten anyone who happened to read one my very occasional contributions. And the urge to be candid could be a mistake: I'd have thought a certain anonymity to be sensible for contributors - not just women - to a open internet forum. Whilst I can appreciate that those of you in the public eye, e.g. with established positions as performers, might feel it reasonable to use your real names, I can't quite see a necessity for hoi polloi doing likewise. Mind you, I can't see much point in myspace and its ilk either, so I daresay I have entirely missed some fundamental psychological point.

Besides, I rather like not having a clue who anyone is. Makes me think that even this cat might look at a king.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM

I have to say that I tend to agree with Howard here. In the early days the web was indeed a rather scary place and we were right to be wary of spam, viruses, cyber stalkers and worse.

Those threats do still exist, of course, but in a world where kids (and a lot of adults - in my house anyway!) spend half their lives, relatively safely, on MSN, Boobee (or whatever it's called) MyFaceTube and Splutter, and we're all tooled up with firewalls (or macs, smug grin) I think we have a lot less to fear from transparency than we imagined. (I was staggered to read a suggestion that Facebook 'harvests' (?) info from Mudcat - is that really true and if so how and whatever for?)!

That said, I can empathise with comments like those from Backwoodman, and anyone else who has had a bad cyber experience. If you genuinely prefer to be anon I respect that.

I also respect those who are happy to be out and proud.

The point I would like to make, though, is that using an alias while occasionally signing with a real name is not really a solution. Firstly, it can be divisive, breaking the forum up into those who do know or remember who you are and those who don't (most, usually - certainly me). This can encourage factionalism and isolationism. Secondly, it can cause confusion when people misremember, or mis-guess identities. Quite a few threads have gone sour as a result of identity confusion. And thirdly, there will be accusations of arrogance (as above), over your assumption that people should take the trouble to remember who you are.

Also: If you're wedded to your alias, but always sign with your name, as many do, there is no problem. If you have a descriptive alias, that perhaps identifies your club or band, again no problem. If you want to be anonymous and stay anonymous, fair enough. But if you use an alias that looks like a normal name, but isn't actually yours, then some people are going to feel very uncomfortable about it.

I do think websites could now stop encouraging people to pick a nickname when they sign up. I made this mistake on the BBC site - because I was told to (as I believe people are here) and it led me into instant conflict, which I would have avoided if I'd used my real name from the start. That was pivotal to my views on this issue.

fROOTs now actively encourage real names, and the forum is all the better for it. I think the team here are afraid that if they introduce any controls or change the ethos even a little then the traffic may subside (as I think it did over there - certainly a tighter policy caused a drop in traffic at the Beeb), but given the damage to individuals, and the damage to image and public relations that might be a price worth paying.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:36 AM

Hey"!!!! Guest Giles Earle, we were all wondering when you'd show up again. Great to renew your acquaintance, and I'm not the only one to think so.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:45 AM

Well, as I said earlier, I simply couldn't be arsed to think of a nickname. Perhaps I take it all too seriously, but choosing a nickname seems to involve taking on a new persona, and needs careful thought. It seemed easier to be me. Perhaps I should have just chosen a random word and not worried about it.

Most of the long-term posters on here have deliberately or inadvertently given away enough about themselves for someone to identify them if they really wanted to. I've got websites, I'm in the phone book, on the electoral register, I'm known as a performer in some circles, so someone could track me down if they wanted to.

I will enter debates and argue my point strongly at times, but I hope I don't piss anybody off, and if I do I will apologise. I think the risk that I will attract a stalker or a nutter because of what I might say on here is small, and I doubt whether using a nickname would protect me much against those.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people using nicknames, but it seems to me to be a rather quaint custom from the early days of the internet that no longer has a place in today's world where everyone is on-line.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:13 AM

I'm an occasional guest, a nobody in terms of the music scene. I've never performed in public, never organised an event, never managed or promoted an artist, never published or researched on folk music. In short, I am not in a position of power so I might as well just use my real name.

Well, no. I share an uncommon surname with someone well known and in real life I have often found myself being regarded as a representative of that person. I'm not, I'm me, but it happens.

Tom Bliss makes some very good points, as always, but his is an unusual name. I wonder how happy he would be if a real person also called Bliss posted comments he disagreed with on Mudcat? I think he might end up wishing that person had used a pseudonym.

I use a nickname because it's kinder to my namesake and a little easier to be the real me. And no, my name's not Bliss!

Incidentally, like many others I've sometimes felt bullied and insulted by a particular contributor. Knowing she uses her real name doesn't make any difference. I still haven't a clue who she is.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GRex
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:17 AM

When I joined the 'cat, it seemed that using a Mudcat name was the 'in' thing.

My name, for those interested, is George King but I shall continue to use my Mudcat name, a name I've grown to like.

             GRex

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:35 AM

Golightly I see your point. (Actually, people often assume 'Bliss' is a really TERRIBLE stage name - and I've been marked down for it in the past, chiz chiz).

Obviously 'first come first served' would apply, and there seems to be no major restriction on length of handle, so "John Smith from Alderney" would be fine. I presume you don't have to type it all out every time.

For the sake of completeness I should also mention again Paul 'Banjiman' Arrowsmith's point about sock puppets, and my agreement that it's another reason why this should be made a membership site. I've never been impersonated on Mudcat (I don't think), but there was a suggestion on another thread that Eliza C had been. If she had genuinely posted those comments, then this suggestion devalued her contribution, and if she hadn't then it's even more scandalous that the system should have allowed her to be impersonated.

As I wrote to Joe only the other day, even the place I buy my ink from requires me to log in now. It's just NOT a problem.

A belief that log-ins are somehow authoritarian (or whatever the objection is) and so must not be required, belongs in the 80s not the 00s.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:45 AM

So how come you're still a guest?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:46 AM

Just to be clear, Eliza was not impersonated.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:33 AM

all of us make mistakes occasionally when posting.
I made a mistake about an apalling[imo] review,which appeared to be from a national magazine,I have subsequently apologised to the editor[twice].
however, if I had been truly anonymous,I would have not altered my post one iota.
internet flare ups can be avoided,by responding to aggression by diffusing it,much as sensible people would do in real life.
but if the response returned is equally aggressive then problems arise,it takes two to tango.
it is also true that posters and posts can be ignored.
I choose not to look at certain members posts,a much better idea than responding aggressively or bullying.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:46 AM

"So how come you're still a guest?"

As I explained above to Paul: To join would be to endorse the status quo, and therefore behaviour that it permits. You may criticise me for that, and many do, but it's important to me.

That's also why I always take any opportunity to develop this debate, even when it may get me into bother.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 08:00 AM

Tom, I assume the behaviour you object to is the periodic bouts of abusiveness and bullying to which Mudcat can sometimes descend. I don't like that either. On the other hand, when it gets too bad the moderators will step in, as has happened on a couple of recent threads.

One of the things I like about Mudcat is that is is moderated with a light touch, unlike some forums. That does mean that debate can sometimes be robust, but they do step in when it goes over the top. I think they've got it about right.

As for nicknames encouraging such behaviour, some of the sharpest tongues post under their own names, or else are easily identifiable, so I don't think doing away with them would help.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: folkandroots
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:09 AM

Although like a lot of other people I suspect I don't contribute here but I do read (often in despair recently) a lot of the threads, some informative some not but linked in with Tom's point about behaviour I do wonder whether it would be better if some of the forum was removed from the public domain and made accessible/viewable only to signed in and known members, although they don't have a problem with abuse the talkawhile forum do something similar but their software may make that easier to administer.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:33 AM

Whats this attitude? find something that works,decide it doesn't quite suit your own personal needs.
Then whinge and whine till its altered to suit you ?
Why don't you just make this a private site,create a cabal/committee to run it and make up acres of rules.
Make it a forum for the self appointed smug and middle classes
to have only their own or properly vetted views adhered too.
Maybe it could be limited only to those who make a living through their music.
Maybe we could have different colored handles to denote where we have risen to in the pecking order?
Maybe there could be system to denote alliances and someway of letting people know that you are more important at present because you have a few gigs or spots to allocate?
Hey we could create a closed Folk Village with electronic gates and security personnel to guard it.
Of course there would have to be sub divisions within the village,I mean if you were a proper folkie you wouldn't want to live too close to one of the old guard. Or if an important promoter you would want your supplicant to be kept at a convenient distance,close enough to call for them to be washed and brought to your rooms if required but not too close.
After all we need to know our places don't we?
You lot are amazing
I love you all I hope you know that.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

"I love you all I hope you know that."

..... and a big slobbery kiss to you as well Tim!

Paul Jonathan Arrowsmith d.o.b. 15/01/65. UK I.D. Card number...... they'll be along soon enough.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:46 AM

It is interesting - and strange - to me that so many people here assume that someone would recognize their "real" name and somehow react differently toward them if they knew who they really were. Of course, many/most of those with that feeling are 'Catters from over the water, and the UK folk scene is pretty insular. Not deliberately trying to be rude, but who are Joan Crump, Lizzie Cornish or Diane Easby, and why would anyone care if they are "out" or not? Any of you play, sing or record?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:53 AM

Hey that's a good question.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:56 AM

And here's the answer:

As I have said on a number of previous occasions (and I believe somewhere way down this thread somewhere), I sing and play mainly only for me (the cats leap through the catflap) as I stopped any public performance when I became a music writer.

Joan Crump is artistic director of the foremost English festival, a singer and a melodeon player, as I'm sure she'll be along to tell you.

"Lizzie Cornish" is a random spam generator and pain in the arse and it isn't even her real name.

---

Now, now, Diane, settle down. Don't get your blood pressure up again...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:59 AM

Well, Tim, I can see this debate is making you cross, and I wouldn't want to stop you being able to express that crossness, as long as you don't resort to abuse or bullying - which you haven't.

But a lot of people do seem to find it hard to express controlled anger without going there, and threads here do seem to can get out of hand more often than is good for any of us - and certainly not for the image of the folk scene.

Most people involved in trying to bring people into folk music, as artists, a promoters, enthusiasts, researchers, whatever, would like to show everyone that this is good, interesting music, and that the people who like it are welcoming, friendly and open-minded. But much of what goes on here runs exactly counter to that effort (you own post there isn't exactly chummy) - and that's the reason why a lot of people would like to see change (many of them never come near Mudcat -and for this very reason).

I'm not advocating any of the things you mention (and I think that's obvious from my posts, if you try to read them with an open mind). The mix and match of this forum is its key strength.

But the light touch that Howard mentions only works if the users respect it.

And it seems that not enough, now, do.

People (mainly in the UK) take advantage of the fact that there is only one active host, and that he's in the US. A lot of damage is often done between the first sour post (yours is the first in this thread, I'd suggest) and the eventual closure. (This will be closed soon because it has become about mudcat policy - and that's a mistake too imho)

So why do I chip in with suggestions?

Well, its clear from the teams' own posts that they do not feel things are working these days, and that things are running away a bit here.

I'd be willing to bet that they would dearly like to find a safe way to control things WHEN NECESSARY, without loosing the essential and welcome freedoms that this site offers.

Looking at the moderation and membership systems on other websites it seems obvious to me that there are a number of features that could be introduced - with suitable adaptations - which would deliver the necessary control, without losing the essence.

I used to do this sort of thing for a living, and I agree that it has become necessary, so I'm making a contribution.

I'm not going to be involved in folk music for very much longer, but I've started so I'll keep going for now anyway.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM

"Any of you play, sing or record?"

Irrelevant question to the thread topic

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

Good question, Art. I'm nobody - or at least that's who I'd prefer to be. I come here 90% of the time to talk about folk because I like it, and it's my main interest. For the most part, I try NOT to talk about what I do for a job, unless it is very relevant to the discussion, because I don't particularly want that to be a consideration when I post - I'm just a.n. other Mudcat member with more opinions than is probably good for me. Maybe that's naive. But other people sometimes do mention it - sometimes in a nice way, and sometimes as a weapon. Whatever. There are lots of different kinds of bullying.

I have to say that I think that Tom is belabouring the point somewhat. I've listened to his reasoning, but I will probably do whatever I feel like doing. If I feel particularly hectored, I'll probably deliberately do the opposite of what I'm being asked, just because I'm contrary that way.

The argument has been made. Surely people are now free to choose whether they want to use a Mudcat name or not.

Freedom for Borsetshire!


Ruth

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:47 AM

I'll just say again that this thread was started purely and only to let people know that my "Tabster" handle is now defunct.

There's been a lot of thread creep taking us into all manner of philosophical and practical considerations and some people appear to be getting irritated or frustrated as a result.

My choice of action was never intended as any form of guidance or reproach to others. If you, the reader, have interpreted it as that, please recognise that it is your interpretation and not my intention.

Of course, as Ruth says above, people are free as they have always been to use a Mudcat name or not. I wish we lived in a safer world where everyone would feel able to use the name of their choice in any context, and I wish we could all accept each other without any chips on the shoulder or resentments. I particularly wish that my fellow islanders here on the Atlantic archipelago could restrain their snarkiness when they feel challenged or disagreed with - my experience as a performer on the UK folk circuit is entirely positive, but Mudcat makes it all seem very different.

Ho, hum.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:49 AM

Oh! This is another UK-centric thread...have fun!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:53 AM

I work on the principle that I don't say anything on any message board that I wouldn't say to a person's face. OK, that doesn't leave much out but I have met quite a few 'Catters in real life and nobody, so far, has punched me on the nose although I think one or two might have like to try if they'd been on this side of the Atlantic.

The name theleveller came about when I first registered on the Beeb message boards and, to my surprise, turned up instead of my real nameon the posts on the Folk and Acoustic board (but not on the News Have Your Say board) and it just sort of stuck. If I changed it now I think it might cause confusion.

I'm not hiding behind a pseudonym, as Ian Anderson once accused me of doing. If anyone is remotely interested in who I am, just search for theleveller on myspace.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:53 AM

"Oh! This is another UK-centric thread...have fun!"

Yup ain't it fun!! *LOL*

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:08 PM

Well I used Breton Cap for several years cos I thought it was a requirement to adopt a handle. Never felt that I was hiding anything and it gave one or two people cause to scoff.

It seems that there are no other catters with my name so I'll revert to my real name.

So goodbye Breton Cap hello Dave Earl

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:10 PM

"Oh! This is another UK-centric thread...have fun!"

It doesn't have to be, you're absolutely free to contribute under the consistent name of your choosing. I don't think anyone has seriously insulted anyone else yet (except the usual suspect attacking the usual target) so it clearly isn't UK only!

Tom, I really do take your point about the perceptions that might be created of the folk and trad music scene by some of our more unsavoury posters but introduction of totalitarian (I'm sure that is spelt wrong) rules rarely works. It usually causes revolution.

We just need to keep reminding each other to be more restrained and ignore those who are unable to control themselves. As has been stated, some of the worst offenders DO use their real (as far as we know) names.

Anne, I respect your choice to us your real name. If it works for you that's great.


Paul Arrowsmith..... what you want my address as well now?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:03 PM

But Paul old chap - why do you call a requirement to log in - which is universal on EVERY other message board I have ever encountered (please tell me of any I've missed) - 'totalitarian'?

Why do people get angry at the very idea of a required sign-in?

It would still be up to the mods to decide what how they wanted to control the site - and knowing Joe and Max things would probably remain exactly the same, but at least they'd have to power, then, control in ways other than merely closing threads, leaving issues unresolved, bad behaviour rewarded, and restraint punished (as now).

They could reliably time people out, or ban (not that I'm in favour of that), they could close threads knowing that everyone could resort to PMs - many things they can't do now.

The issue of real names is separate and very much secondary. (I'm taking about a culture of encouragement, merely, on that).

Tom

By the way this is not 'belabouring the point,' Joan, I'm just maintaining my argument when questioned - and I do hope you approve of people being able to do that.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM

Ah, and katlaughing - I think you are a mod, yes?

I agree the problems I'm talking about are mostly based over here, but I've seen some really nasty posts from people based in other countries too. It's a universal issue.

I can see why you might want to wash your hands of 'The UK Problem' but it is actually a Mudcat problem, I'm sorry to say.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM

You can argue all you like Tom - go for your life. But I equally hope you don't object to me choosing not to do what you want.

You have couched your argument under the umbrella of it being helpful to the Mudcat management. But Joe Offer has said further up the thread that people are welcome to post under whatever name they like, so long as it's consistent. So whose agenda are you really working to?


Having said that, I am starting to feel a bit odd...

OOOOOOH NOOOOOOOOH!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:14 PM

Blimey! A sex change an' all! David ain't gonna be happy about this...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:15 PM

Tom,

Mate.... I do sign in and I'm not shy about using my real name, you don't sign in!

I like the idea of choice, though "guests" can bring problems, they also often bring value. I think the current situation adds to a dynamic forum.

Most of the problems of personal attacks and rudeness are associated with members (many using their real names), not guests. I don't think enforcing the rules you suggest would solve the problems you identify without fundamentally changing this place by introducing draconian moderation. It would become as stilted as the BBC2 Folk Board.

Paul arrowsmith etc

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

.... Ifeel like I'm caught in a Radio 4 soap opera!

I'll get me tractor!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM

Sorry mate...there was a turkey pecking on me ear. You what?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:30 PM

why do you call a requirement to log in - which is universal on EVERY other message board I have ever encountered (please tell me of any I've missed)

Try folkinfo for starters.

I don't know you Tom, but you're quite new here, and this place has a lot of history regarding guests. (Ask any of the oldtimers about healing and a mouse...).

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Rent-An-Archer
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:13 PM

I don't like this. If I have to use my real name I'll have to stop doing all that C&W. And Sid will open one of those flamin' f*lk clubs upstairs at The Bull.
Dum-de-dum-de-dum-de-dum.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM

Tempest in a teacup.
                         Neil Devore

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM

Guest, Ed: I just went to Folkinfo, and was told that Guests could neither initiate nor participate in discussions. I'm unsure on your point.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM

why do you call a requirement to log in - which is universal on EVERY other message board I have ever encountered (please tell me of any I've missed) - 'totalitarian'?

Very few message boards require you to have an account to read the posts. The only one like that which I subscribe to is Dick Gaughan's, which is very limited in scope compared with Mudcat. I prefer to write so that anyone in the world can read what I have to say, and so that my posts get archived indefinitely in the public sphere, so I've got no intention of subscribing to any others of that kind.

Here is an old message of mine where I made that point at greater length:

archived post about archived posts


I'm not hiding behind a pseudonym [...] If anyone is remotely interested in who I am, just search [...] on myspace.

Which would mean opening my arsehole to Rupert Murdoch first. No thanks. You can keep your name to yourself forever if that's who your friends are.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

Guest, Ed: I just went to Folkinfo, and was told that Guests could neither initiate nor participate in discussions. I'm unsure on your point.

My point was that folkinfo allows you to post as a guest. Example:

Click here

Ed

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:34 PM

Meanwhile, back at the thread title.....   :o)

I was outted by Olddude a while back, but most people who knew me knew who I was (a bit zen that!). Mum said she'd sewn name labels in my school uniform, so for a long time I thought that I was St Michael!

However, it was interesting when some-one asked me what my name was. I replied and he said, "Yes, but what's your real name?"

Heigh Ho!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:40 PM

"Ifeel like I'm caught in a Radio 4 soap opera!"

Oi think the arrrnser lois IN the soil....

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:15 PM

Just to explain the situation at folkinfo.

In common with most systems, folkinfo allows guest control on a per forum/area basis. Currently all areas except "community discussion" (which is closed for new topics and replies) are open to guests creating new topics and replying.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:12 PM

I stand corrected, and properly abashed.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:34 PM

"You have couched your argument under the umbrella of it being helpful to the Mudcat management. But Joe Offer has said further up the thread that people are welcome to post under whatever name they like, so long as it's consistent. So whose agenda are you really working to?"

My agenda is the diminution of what is reckoned by many in the UK folk scene to be a major and growing problem. (I've canvassed opinons on this, just as I have on many other issues that I think are important).

You see, this is my old day-job. I have a long history of advising large corporate managements about communications issues, on a professional basis, and I have a long history of saying things people don't necessarily want to hear. And some history of effecting some unexpected improvements by use of carefully reasoned arguments. (Quite a few in the folk world, too, actually).

There are two different but related points I'm making here, please let's not get them muddled up.

1) LOG IN

"Very few message boards require you to have an account to read the posts"

Hang on a mo - I'm suggesting that everyone should be required to log in to POST (not to read, goodness me - that WOULD be a VERY bad idea)!! This would, I believe, help the team - because it would remove the Un-Moddable Guest problem, while helping to change the character of the site in a subtle way; reducing confusion, sock puppetry, guest trolling and so on, and so promote a calmer, more generous atmosphere, which should benefit all users, who are all now members. And IF the team did want to ban someone they could do so properly - which they can't, easily, now.

Knowing you can always continue as a Guest removes the need for members to think before they post. There's no threat of exclusion at the moment, and I believe that's one of the key reasons that some people behave so badly so often.

As Paul says, and as I've said above, some of the worst offenders are members. But why do they feel they can get away with it? Because they so often do. A firmer hand on the tiller would be a benign influence. It's not a major change, it's commonplace on other forums, and it sends a crucial message about what the community expects (one that is conspicuous by its absence now).

Joe may not be convinced of this at the moment, but I'm hoping to change his and Max's minds (in case you haven't twigged I write here on this topic as much for them as for you dear readers).

(And I do write to them direct as well, of course).

2) REAL NAMES

I'm not suggesting that this should be compulsory, and I've explained why. I just think real names should be encouraged, specially for people in positions of power, for the reasons I've given. Again, it's about sending a message that people should behave here as they would in real life.

Yes, the team seem happy with the status quo on this as well. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't suggest changes if we believe, as I do, that they will make this website stronger by minimising unpleasantness and so allowing more people to post more freely (a lot of people have gone away thanks to the fighting), and so make it more useful to the wider folk community and an unqualified benefit rather than a potential problem.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

there is one problem that i think on one has taken into account as regards the ' abuse' on here, does it occur to anyone else, that while someone might write something that others find offensive,to the person writing and possibly to the one is is aimed at, that they might actually know each other and they are being sarcastic to one another?

you might read it completely the wrong way, trust me i have done it, it is easy to misunderstand becuase we cannot see facial expressions or hear the sarcastic tone of voice. my advice would be to let people sort it out between themselves, the mods do a fantastic job and have patiance and understanding of the regulars humor.

i gave my real name purely incase anyone on here does know me, so they know when i write something how it is meant to be taken, no other reason,maybe a bit of self importancebut we are all guilty of that otherwise we would never post anything!!!

sorry if i have banged on a bit,i think i was on a roll!!! LOL x x

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:12 AM

"Again, it's about sending a message that people should behave here as they would in real life."

Maybe they already do, Tom. Maybe the Mudcat Arseholes are also Real Life Arseholes? If that's the case, they'd still behave like Arseholes under their real names (as indeed some already might do). Or maybe some are very nice, quiet people in real life, who have a deep-seated anger burning in them which they use this forum as a means of quenching from time to time? Or maybe they're just argumentative bastards who don't know when they're beaten? Or maybe they have mental or psycholgical illnesses - Aspergers, Autism, whatever? Or maybe they just hate men? Or maybe they just enjoy behaving the way they do? It's a big world, takes all sorts.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are people who will not, or cannotfor whatever reason, control themselves, and who totally fail to understand the line between robust discussion and unnacceptable abusive (sometimes even libellous) behaviour, even when asked by other members and moderators to behave properly, and using 'Real Names' won't make a ha'porth of difference. The only answer is to cut the serial-offenders out, IMHO. 'Martin Gibson' (who made our current crop look like cute, lovable, fluffy little kittens) was the classic example - worked with him.

I post on a guitar-forum (under a different handle) which is very strictly moderated - active participation and robust discussion are encouraged but abuse, foul language, threats, harrassment and ill-temper are not tolerated, you get one public warning and second strike you're out, permanently. It makes for a much pleasanter and informative place, and I post much more often on there than on Mudcat because of it.

However, this forum is as it is, and I guess I'll continue to lurk around as I do - reading a lot, laughing a lot (sometimes in amusement, sometimes in total disbelief at the moronic stuff I'm reading), tossing in an opinion in from time to time and ducking as the excrement flies past my ear.

But it won't be as The Real Me, Tom. No way, Josie. :-)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM

"Maybe they already do, Tom. Maybe the Mudcat Arseholes are also Real Life Arseholes? If that's the case, they'd still behave like Arseholes under their real names (as indeed some already might do). Or maybe some are very nice, quiet people in real life, who have a deep-seated anger burning in them which they use this forum as a means of quenching from time to time? Or maybe they're just argumentative bastards who don't know when they're beaten? Or maybe they have mental or psycholgical illnesses - Aspergers, Autism, whatever? Or maybe they just hate men? Or maybe they just enjoy behaving the way they do? It's a big world, takes all sorts."

Hey I don't hate men!
You are being libidinous.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:42 AM

Tom
I do respect your views.
I also think they would carry more weight if you were interested enough in mudcat as it exists,
To commit to being a member
Rather than as now
asking for it to be changed to suit you.
Was there a slight sense maybe that if there is a Uk moderators job going you would maybe consider that if the pay and conditions were right?
Lol
Chill mate
exasperated
Tim

Ms Easby
What is it about MS Cornish that evokes such a negative reaction?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:49 AM

So can I take it from your post, Backwoodsman, that you might agree that compulsory sign-in (as per your guitar-forum) might help a bit - (accepting, as I do, your preference for continued anonymity)?

I wouldn't want to see that one-strike policy here. It would indeed be too big a change from what makes Mudcat special. I'm only talking about changing the moderation policy by a few degrees, but to achieve that mods need the technical tools to react quickly and effectively when than they can now, so minimising the damage.

It's the speed of reaction, and the message that sends to everyone else, that is important, rather than the outcome for the individual concerned.

Do you see any merit in my argument that the fact that people can continue to post as guests (under a different name - does Mr MS, do we know?) even if excluded, diminishes the threat of exclusion?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:57 AM


What is it about MS Cornish that evokes such a negative reaction?

Inane airheadedness, inability or incapacity to grasp the basic essentials of musical theory and training (nor indeed any education), irrational hatred of the EFDSS and fRoots and overall tediousness detrimental to the music's image and that of its exponents.

q.v innumerable statements passim from high profile musicians and activists including Eliza Carthy, Phil Beer, Simon Care and the entire cast of The Archers, among others.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

Woah - Tim, Lad - this is NOT to suit me! Lawks a mercy!!

This is for the benefit of mudcat itself and, in particular, the UK folk scene.

I'm leaving this game soon, and you won't see much of me around here from a few months time - I'll be way too busy doing other things, and will merely pop in as a casual folk fan, like lots of others. (Actually I'm not sure how much time I'll have, I enjoy coming here and do hope to be around when possible).

I'm doing this purely because I know a lot of people think it needs to be done, but not many are willing or able to stick their necks out.

This is only one of a number of issues I'm pursuing, which all started because I felt they were creating negative PR for the UK folk scene, and therefore - in some small part, perhaps - on my small business: Smooth Operations, PRS and various others are all in the frame.

Call me a trouble-maker, but I can handle that. It's just what I do.

Yes, I might have been a UK mod if asked, and available, but I never was available (spent far too much time out on the road, or in Alderney with patchy internet connection), and I'm certainly not going to be reliably available in the future. So thanks but no thanks.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:02 AM

Now who on earth is complaining that this is becoming a soap opera? Some of us are far too busy to worry about things like that.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

'Tis true. She thinks the negative reaction is because she bangs on about SOH, Seth Kate, Reg and others I've forgotten.

But that isn't the reason. Personally, I like her enthusiasm.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

Ignore the previous post - I was just buggering around to see how easy it was to change names. For a few giddy moments I was Brian Aldridge, but then sense got the better of me.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM

Note to self: suggest to Joe that name changes should be referred to mods for approval! lol

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Rent-An-Archer
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:15 AM

Brian, where've you gone?
I wannabe an Aldridge too.

(Yes, it's really easy, innit?)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:17 AM

To give Lizzie her due, her heart is in the right place in this one:

anti-fascist response to Daily Mail Reader

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:24 AM

Oh my word! That Siobhan's back from the dead! And she's lookin' for Brian...this is startin' to sound like one of them folk songs my dad used to sing in the back room of The Bull on a Friday night...


What's Jennifer gonna say when she finds out?!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:29 AM

I agree with compulsory sign-in Tom. I also disagree with allowing 'GUEST' postings at all. Join up, or butt out, that's my philosophy. And that way, the question of people like MG reappearing as 'Guests' is ruled out. It's the way the guitar forum works, and it works!

I truly believe in stronger moderation (if that's not a Lincolnshire Daftism!), and members-only participation.

But as I said earlier, it's just MHO. Not trying to tell Max and his team how to do things, just MHO. Mudcat is as it is, and I'll carry on lurking - reading a great deal but commenting only infrequently - and (albeit reluctantly) accept the status quo. And I'm sufficiently grown-up (hell, I can even do joined-up writing!) to be able to withdraw from a thread when the Lunatics take over the Asylum.

Hey Tim, I'm much too old and knackered for libidinousness! (Not even sure I ever had a Libido, always been more of a Lowden- and Martin-man, me!). You know me, mate! :-)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Rent-An-Archer
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:34 AM

Jennifer will sing The Village Pump. I recorded that, y'know. Way back when I was alive.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:39 AM

I'm glad to hear it BW.

Just to make one point that I've not explained properly.

There seems to be a fear that if guests are only allowed to read but not post, then the forum might loose out on some valuable contributions.

I feel that this thinking belongs in a former time, when people were more resistant to logging in.

But now, so many websites require it that i feel it really is no longer a barrier. Casual guests and the occasional heavyweights who are an important feature of Mudcat, will still drop by - and log in. It only takes a minute to sign up, and we're all well used to it.

If someone has something to say, then a requirement to join will NOT be a barrier, I'm sure of it.

Yes, there might be a very small decline in guest posts, but the advantages would easily outweigh the disadvantages.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:07 AM

Tom best of luck with new career maybe further down the road things will look up re the paid side of things.
Ms Easby


"q.v innumerable statements passim from high profile musicians and activists including Eliza Carthy, Phil Beer, Simon Care and the entire cast of The Archers, among others."

Ok so I is ignorant,What do that mean?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:10 AM

Ok so I is ignorant,What do that mean?

Sorry meant to say please on end of that..;-)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,George Spiggott
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:50 AM

It means Lady Di is going on and on and on and on and on about a row that she has been having with The Only Folk Fan In The Village for almost 6 years.

Anyone wanting to study some archeology might try the various Sidmouth Folk Festival threads, where the observant may observe they have exchanged positions during the eternity it has been going on.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:54 AM

Absolutely on the button, Tom. There is no real reason NOT to sign up as a member, no-one is obliged to make personal information public by so doing (although some courageous ones do).

The evidence is splattered all over Mudcat (and not just amongst UK-dwellers!), it screams to be heeded and acted upon. Many of us need our wrists slapping once in a while (and I include myself), but serial-arseholes need stopping. Compulsory membership and log-in is one way - the most workable one IMHO.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:06 AM

"The Only Folk Fan In The Village"

Lol!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM

I've no idea who this oddly named Guest is but he has no authority to speak for me, especially as he is suffering from a terminal confusion over my name is. I am not a deceased ex-Royal.

The "innumerable statements passim from high profile musicians and activists" refers to what they have published recently on the incessant, treacly, smiley-spattered outpourings from the Seagull of Sidmouth.

I do not know the person (despite her frequent false allegations to the contrary). In common with others, I post corrections to some of her more outrageous and damaging lava-spewing.

As a matter of information, the Sidmouth Festival ceased to exist five years ago. The Seagull had a brief affair with Sidmouth Folk Week but now slags it off at every opportunity. As if they care . . .

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:07 AM

logging on is a good idea,or rather signin g up as cookies make it so we don't have to sign in all the time.
people should not be allowed to change thier name when they have upset someone or have been told off, they should simply saysorry and move on.

i cannot agree to sensorship as anyone who visits this site will appreciate the fact that there is such a thing as free speech,here if nowhere else. on other sites i have visited they do not even let you say 'drap' which i think curtails honest and free flowing conversations.
if you met someone who swears you would be able to say "could you not swear around me please as i find it uncomfortable" so why can't the same apply here? we all need to assume personal responsability and not rely on others to tell us how to behave. x

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Barbara
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 11:27 AM

One of the other forums I log onto lists all one's pseudonymns under your current posting name. That might not be a bad idea here. i.e.

From: Barbara
    (also posting as Wicked Vixen, Hairy Shirt, Open Book)

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 11:44 AM

200

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 12:06 PM

I think Guest posts offer the greatest confusion, logging on is no inconvenience that I can see. And it would deter spammers and 'GUEST, Daily Mail Readers' alike.

As stated, I'm less than keen on pressure to use ones real=world identity, as the entire anonymous world can read this forum and I don't know *their* names, or how many pickaxes they house in their sheds for that matter.

Membership required would prevent people hopping from anon post to anon post without a trace. Three different recent slightly odd uni-posting GUEST posts on VTam's daughters memorial thread (a sensitive thread), leave me feeling a bit uncomfortable on her behalf.

At least if someone has to log on, there is a context and continuity. So if they're a regular arse, you can learn to ignore. I tend to presume that many GUEST posts are too often cowardly ways of getting away with sniping and bitching, without taking responsibility for it.

Bitching *when* taking responsibility for it by using a regular handle, concerns me far less. We are grown ups after all, and I like the relaxed moderation. It's increasingly important to have spaces which allow freedom of speech - even if there are some small inevitable difficulties with it.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:21 AM

Mudcat feels like a different place than it was ten years ago when I first started visiting, at least to me. No better or worse, just different. I have posted my real name from time to time but at the dawn of my internet forum involvement I wanted some anonymity so I used my childhood nickname, Mooh.

The mandolin cafe has suggested a change to real names and I have done so. It is much more closely moderated than Mudcat.

In a perfect world...um, my perfect world...we would all use our real names rather than handles. In this my thoughts have changed over the years. However, I'm afraid of losing some identity, or rather, connection to that identity, if Mooh disappears to be replaced with my actual name.

Peace, Mike Crocker.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:33 AM

There is a solution you could employ today, if you wanted to, Mike.

Change your handle to "Mike Crocker (Mooh)"

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 10:06 AM

I'll abide by any rules the moderators set down, but here's why I'd rather not see guests be prohibited from posting. I've been a member here for close to 2 years now, but you'll notice this is a guest post.
Why is that? It's simple, I'm at work right now on a computer that doesn't belong to me. For that reason I'd rather not have a Mudcat cookie in a work computer and even if I did, that would require having 2 screen identities, something I believe IS discouraged. I've seen other members posting as guest sometimes. One regularly posts as guest using her Mudcat handle followed by "pretending to work" which is kind of cute. Others might be travelling or borrowing someone else's computer etc.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 10:17 AM

Yes, that is a good point Neil.

That said, I'm a member of various websites that require sign-in, and I can access them on my mac at home, or on my mobile phone PDA. I don't store cookies on the phone so I have to log in every time I want to post or buy something, which can be a fiddle, but it's not really a problem. It's not two identities, just two doors into one identity.

Or people can read at work, then save up their contributions until they get home.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:02 AM

Actually, Neil, I think you can use the same identity cookie on multiple computers - I have automatic log-in on both my desktop and laptop, as well as my daughter's PC. Your point about using the computer at work is well-taken, though...using business computers for personal business is generally discouraged, and the sanctions for doing so can be severe.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:08 AM

No need for 2 cookies Neil. I log in from my home computer, from my laptop, and via our network at the office, all using the same name/cookie. Unless your employer's system has some gizmo that prevents the use of cookies?

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 02:11 PM

Guest, Tom Bliss... Yes, thanks, I thought of that, and I might just do it. Maybe now...

Peace, Mike Crocker (Mooh).

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

Mike, you'll always be "Mooh" to me!:-)

kat

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: My guru always said
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:40 PM

Dare I say 'Welcome Anne'? And 'Liz' too! *grin*
Hil x

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:50 PM

I am bemused, not to say confused and amused, that Miss Easeby has seen fit to change her name to THE BORCHESTER ECHO.

It does have a certain ring to it ...

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:27 AM

s/Easeby/Easby, but then s/Easby/Crump (fka Archer)/

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:05 AM

I assumed it's to carry on with the Ambridge theme started by 'Ruth Archer'.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:21 AM

ooooh nooooo!

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:24 AM

By 'eck, Ruth Archer, you weren't behind the mangle when they were handing out t' stair-rods!

(Loosely translated: another reason for using real names might be to mitigate the bafflement occasioned to Mudcat's international audience by some of our less universal in-jokes.)

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:05 AM

I'd rather not have a Mudcat cookie in a work computer and even if I did, that would require having 2 screen identities

I post from work sometimes, and using the same identity. It would worry me if there were more at stake, since the work machine uses Windows and I am NOT about to post any passwords that really matter on something so insecure. But Mudcat doesn't need my credit card details before I can post.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:14 AM

You can use the same cookie on any number of computers, but if you use a public one, it's good to remember to log out.

Incidentally, if you change your screen name, anyone can use your previous one. If I change from 'Jeri' to 'Flipwitz' or something, another person can register as 'Jeri'.

When you play games, it makes it easier for others to do the same.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM

Is that supposed to explain why you were masquerading as me at the weekend?
Fortunately your style was as unlike mine as it is possible to be so no-one was fooled.
I had so idea you so wanted to be me, yet am unsurprised that you fell flat on your face.

The Borchester Echo is a singularly appropriate moniker for me and, as I told Joe Offer on Sunday, I shall be using it for the foreseeable future.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

Dear BorE, I changed my name for about a half hour and posted one message a la Sir jOhn. It was just a bit of silliness, but I decided to reverse it fast enough to prevent myself looking like a complete whack job.

Thanks for letting me know you noticed.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:08 AM

Sorry - I missed me cows.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:33 PM

The big brown ones
Or
The Udders?
Sorry

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:19 AM

"Incidentally, if you change your screen name, anyone can use your previous one." [Jeri]

Which is another reason why I am hesitant to change.

Would it be wise to freeze former handles?

Peace, Mike Crocker.

Subject: RE: Assuming my real name!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:06 AM

I always post under my own name but there do seem to be a lot of others with the same name......

Giovanni Uest