BS: Welcome to Old Labour?

Subject: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:02 AM

I am gobsmacked bythe petty opportunism that has broken out in the Labour Party.

Can the idiot ministers (well at least we knew that that bit was true) resigning, and the various political assassins not see that as the Labour Party becomes poised to reap the propaganda coup of Brown's and Darling's anti-recession strategies actually bearing fruit (so demonstrating that the conservative opposition to them would have caused a long hard and deep recession in truth - as anyone who looked at the 1920s and 30s could have foretold) it is NOT the time to ditch the founder of those strategies?

There is a sad risk that this self-interested infighting will hand the ruling of this country back to the Old Etonians, the self-serving sons of bitches with NO idea of the sufferings their get-rich-quick "ideals" cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:03 AM

Aren't they ALL "self-serving sons of bitches with NO idea of the sufferings their get-rich-quick "ideals" cause", Richard?

I despair of them all, ALL parties, ALL politicians.

God! We need an Obama!!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:36 AM

The thing is the idiots don't get it at all. If they think they can suddenly become popular by ditching their leader, they truly are delusional, and deserve to get a thorough kicking. As Richard so rightly says, there are things in place that, if they aren't carried through, will leave us even worse off, which of course won't hurt our masters one iota. It's patently obvious that they will tinker around the edges, and let us suffer while 'Rome burns'. Thet can't even see how history will repeat itself, and still they continue. What an utterly squalid pack they really are.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:06 AM

Oh, Lizzie, please don't find a new hero. Obama is doing OK (and his work on the recession is very parallel to Brown's) but please please keep a fairly even keel. And no, I disagree that "ALL have NO idea of the sufferings their get-rich-quick "ideals" cause". Many in the Labour movement have come from places where they will have had no option but to see the evils of capitalism, and some have eschewed "get-rich-quick "ideals" ".

You may better argue that all politicians have had their snouts in the trough, but first that is something else and second there are the occasional examples who have not. It is the bloody conservatives who have taught us that greed is good and most of them have never met a poor person in their lives.

My despair of the Labour party is that it seems to be going back to its self-fractionating old self. B Liar and his "New Labour" did huge harm, but at least they created an electable monolith, that no matter how bad was better than the Old Etonian party.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:06 AM

Point taken, Richard, and I couldn't agree more. Trouble is, choosing between Brown and Cameron will be seen as choosing between shit and nettles.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:45 AM

Nice one Bryn :-) , although I know which I'd rather find up my ar*e.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:43 AM

a very important difference betwen the Conservatives and Labour,is their attitude concerning ulster,the Conservatives until very recently were the conservative and unionist party.
if youare concerned about peace in Ireland you must vote labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM

Site last updated
5th June 2009

New_euro_election
Voting For Change

Ahead of the European Election on Thursday, Leader of the Ulster Unionist Party Sir Reg Empey and Leader of the Conservative Party David Cameron have issued the following joint statement.

"Change is needed across the United Kingdom.

Gordon Brown's Government has taken the UK to the brink of bankruptcy, and now we have a Parliament that has lost the trust of the people.

Public confidence in our institutions and in our politicians is at rock bottom.

David Cameron said last week that "big change and a new politics is exactly what people can expect from a new Conservative government…with people in control of the things that matter to them, a country where the political system is open and trustworthy and where power is distributed from the political elite to the man and woman in the street."

We want the people of Northern Ireland to be part of this process of change and new politics. As citizens of the United Kingdom they should have the same political and Parliamentary standards as their fellow citizens in England, Scotland and Wales.

The Ulster Unionist Party and Conservative Party, standing together as 'Conservatives and Unionists,' have already taken the first important step towards change and new politics. We have jointly endorsed Jim Nicholson as our candidate for the European Parliament.
[imo]there will be little progress re peaceful UNIFICATION OF Ireland,if people vote Conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:32 AM

NI has it's own assembly. I'm not going to base my voting on what is happening in another country. I'm voting for a representative for me and my locality and don't think by choice should be limited. It's bad enough that we're denied an English assembly and that MPs for Scottish and Welsh seats are allowed to vote on matters that only affect England.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:38 AM

Bryn & John

I didn't think I could be made to laugh about the state of the Labour Party, but you manged it. Thanks.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:47 AM

Manitas,if the Irish peace process falls apart,English people including you will be affected,Do you want to go back to the days of violence,when innocent people in both islands were killed and maimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

I'll not be brow-beaten. NI has it's own assembly to sort out these problems. I don't usually vote Conservative but if I think theirs is my best representative then that's who I'll choose. It's my right to choose for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:34 AM

vote labour vote to keep nuclear wepons on brititsh soil, so much for keeping the peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

Now the vultures begin picking at the corpses....

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

Manitas ,of course its your right to vote how you like.
however foreign policy realting to the Irish peace treaty does affect us all,and is one area where there is a difference.
if you dont think its important that is your right, and I respect that ,but I have the right to disagree.,without being accused of browbeating.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM

"but if I think theirs is my best representative then that's who I'll choose. It's my right to choose for myself"

Exactly, Westminster and the English need to mind their own business...God knows they can't control themselvers let alone anyone else

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

God above that quote from Cameron is worthy of Goebbels.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:42 PM

"Oh, Lizzie, please don't find a new hero. Obama is doing OK (and his work on the recession is very parallel to Brown's) but please please keep a fairly even keel..."

Sorry, Richard...but Barak Obama has 'the magic' in him! And you bet he's become a hero!! I'm not on an even keel about that man, I sense something special in him.

"And no, I disagree that "ALL have NO idea of the sufferings their get-rich-quick "ideals" cause". Many in the Labour movement have come from places where they will have had no option but to see the evils of capitalism, and some have eschewed "get-rich-quick "ideals" .

Really???? They sure as hell forget fast then! :0) And to me, that makes them even bigger hypocrites than those raised in a wealthy environment, never knowing any different. How *easy* it is to forget when power and privilege overtake...


"You may better argue that all politicians have had their snouts in the trough, but first that is something else and second there are the occasional examples who have not. It is the bloody conservatives who have taught us that greed is good and most of them have never met a poor person in their lives."

Realllllly?    So Tony Blair and his missus, you know, the one who belittled folks like me, mothers who stayed home to raise their kids, scrimped and scraped, you know, the one who charged charities huge amounts to talk at their functions, the one who got every freebeeeeee going...THAT Mrs. Blair....they're **nothing like** the greedy Tories then?

Yeesh, Richard! They're ALL as bad as each other. There's not an ounce of bloody integrity or honour amongst them all put together. Sleazy people, doing sleazy jobs..and if I were in charge of 'em, I'd knock their heads together, kick them up the backside, read the riot act to them, FORCE them to live on Income Support for months on end, whilst their jobs and mortgages swung in the wind, ready to disappear at any moment...THEN, I'd sit them down with the Dalai Lama, or Martyn Joseph, for a *very* long time, until some of The Goodness had found it's way into their souls!

"My despair of the Labour party is that it seems to be going back to its self-fractionating old self. B Liar and his "New Labour" did huge harm, but at least they created an electable monolith, that no matter how bad was better than the Old Etonian party."

An electable monolith??????????

I don't want to vote for ANY of them. They ALL disgust me. Never have we ever had such a bunch of lily livered, faceless, opinionless, weak, apathetic, unfeeling, uncaring, unispirational, dishonest, slimey b*stards, both male and female, in charge and waiting to be in charge, in my lifetime before!

God Help The Disunited Kingdom, and all who are sinking in Her!

SEND OVER OBAMA....FAST!!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:46 PM

Could someone please remove my confusing post above, please. I forgot to close the 'bold' html bits..Here it is again, hopefully a little clearer.

"Oh, Lizzie, please don't find a new hero. Obama is doing OK (and his work on the recession is very parallel to Brown's) but please please keep a fairly even keel..."

Sorry, Richard...but Barak Obama has 'the magic' in him! And you bet he's become a hero!! I'm not on an even keel about that man, I sense something special in him.

"And no, I disagree that "ALL have NO idea of the sufferings their get-rich-quick "ideals" cause". Many in the Labour movement have come from places where they will have had no option but to see the evils of capitalism, and some have eschewed "get-rich-quick "ideals" .

Really???? They sure as hell forget fast then! :0) And to me, that makes them even bigger hypocrites than those raised in a wealthy environment, never knowing any different. How *easy* it is to forget when power and privilege overtake...


"You may better argue that all politicians have had their snouts in the trough, but first that is something else and second there are the occasional examples who have not. It is the bloody conservatives who have taught us that greed is good and most of them have never met a poor person in their lives."

Realllllly?    So Tony Blair and his missus, you know, the one who belittled folks like me, mothers who stayed home to raise their kids, scrimped and scraped, you know, the one who charged charities huge amounts to talk at their functions, the one who got every freebeeeeee going...THAT Mrs. Blair....they're **nothing like** the greedy Tories then?

Yeesh, Richard! They're ALL as bad as each other. There's not an ounce of bloody integrity or honour amongst them all put together. Sleazy people, doing sleazy jobs..and if I were in charge of 'em, I'd knock their heads together, kick them up the backside, read the riot act to them, FORCE them to live on Income Support for months on end, whilst their jobs and mortgages swung in the wind, ready to disappear at any moment...THEN, I'd sit them down with the Dalai Lama, or Martyn Joseph, for a *very* long time, until some of The Goodness had found it's way into their souls!

"My despair of the Labour party is that it seems to be going back to its self-fractionating old self. B Liar and his "New Labour" did huge harm, but at least they created an electable monolith, that no matter how bad was better than the Old Etonian party."

An electable monolith??????????

I don't want to vote for ANY of them. They ALL disgust me. Never have we ever had such a bunch of lily livered, faceless, opinionless, weak, apathetic, unfeeling, uncaring, unispirational, dishonest, slimey b*stards, both male and female, in charge and waiting to be in charge, in my lifetime before!

God Help The Disunited Kingdom, and all who are sinking in Her!

SEND OVER OBAMA....FAST!!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM

The problem is Lizzie, we will have a Government, vote or no vote. How can anybody complain if they haven't bothered to vote. Somebody quite rightly said that no vote could well be a vote for the BNP, you see that a vote would cancel the other out. And as Richard has also rightly pointed out they are not all self serving crooks. As it happens my MP is Anne Widdecombe. I've never voted for her, but she's been one hell of a good MP for us and she certainly hasn't had her snout in the trough. She's made a good living from her writing though, and that I don't begrudge her.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM

Oh Christ Lizzie. I stopped believing in magic whan I was about 3.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:07 PM

I vote conservative and am proud to. All you trendy lefties can disappear up your festival camping tents. I'll have the last laugh when Cameron is voted - yes, voted in.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM

Tell me Bonzo - did you go to Eton? If not, you are like a turkey or goose voting for Xmas. Did you not see the poll TV? What were teh Etonians drinking? Champagne. That's what they get. You and the rest of us get to drink their piss. Enjoy!

You won't be able to afford to laugh. Only the Etonians will have that privilege.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:44 PM

Well I see Gordon has brought in Sir Alan Sugar as "Enterprise Tsar", so maybe that'll help things along.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:20 PM

It depresses me considerably. THe man symbolises ripoff Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM

"Oh Christ Lizzie. I stopped believing in magic whan I was about 3."

You did? :0(

This is for that 3 year old child then, Richard, the one who is still alive, deep inside. All you have to do is let him out again...

When was the last time........................?

The magical thing about magic is that you may stop believing in *it*, but *it* never stops believing in you. :0)

Maybe if our politicians were in touch with their Souls, rather than their Bank Balances, they may all be far better people, able to lead their country in the right way.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:28 AM

Proportional Representation is the only way forward. But it will never be accepted by the two main parties. The 'first past the winning post' attitude is too enticing for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:03 AM

PR - I am not gong to debate that issue her eas it is off-topic.

Government is about setting priorities. These prioties could be around social justice and intervention (the reason why we have the NHS and compulsory education) or it could be around individual responsiblity (laissez faire).

But for any government to be able to carry out its manifesto it has to be elected, and as things stand that is in the hands of a handful of marginal constituencies in middle England, who may cast thier votes for selfish reasons as opposed to what is best for society as a whole.

This the paradox - being principled, without power, or compromising principle to gain power. This will always favour the Tories who put individualism before social responsibility.

So, what can Labour do? One way is to sell out, another and much harder is to change attitudes. I think when we had the labour landslide Blair missed the opportunity to push for an attitudinal change and gone a lot more to the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:55 AM

"Tell me Bonzo - did you go to Eton?" No, Queen Elizabeth's Boys Grammar School in Barnet.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

"But for any government to be able to carry out its manifesto it has to be elected"

And when Labour swept to power in 1997 it did so on the basis of a manifesto commitment to have a referendum on electoral reform:

"We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system." From 1997 Labour Party Manifesto.

The"independent commission on voting systems" was apponted, and made recommendations - but the promised referendum was never held. But that manifesto made no mention of when it should be held, and there has been no repudiation in subsequent manifestos of the pledge to hold it.

This means that the promise to hold that referendum still stands - and if it were carried out, it would dramatically change the situation. It could save us from the unpleasant possibility of living under a Tory government, elected by a minority of the voters, for decades to come. For the rest of our lives for many of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:16 PM

""There is a sad risk that this self-interested infighting will hand the ruling of this country back to the Old Etonians, the self-serving sons of bitches with NO idea of the sufferings their get-rich-quick "ideals" cause................B Liar and his "New Labour" did huge harm, but at least they created an electable monolith, that no matter how bad was better than the Old Etonian party.""


Now where was it that Tony Blair was educated?

Ah yes!......The following monuments to socialist state education:- Durham Choristers School, Fettes College, Edinburgh; St John's College, Oxford

Harriet Harman.....St Paul's Girls school (an independent school) and York University

Alastair Darling.....Kirkaldy, The private Loretto School, Musselburgh, and Aberdeen University

Ed Balls......Nottingham High School (a fee paying public school), Keble College Oxford, and Harvard

That's just the ones I could be bothered to sort out. Very socialist lot.

I'm also sure that I could trawl the Tory party and find plenty of Grammar, and Comprehensive School pupils.

By the same token you could as easily reverse the process.

Which proves WHAT?.......Well nothing really, except how blinkered and one sided your view of people in the Tory Party has become.

Tory or Labour, they have all had a similar degree of education, and have achieved very similar prominence in public life.

If you believe that Eton still confers instant success, then you are living half a century in the past.

I don't see socialists as a bunch of ragged half starved serfs in clogs and flat caps, because I've moved on somewhat from the prejudices of the 1930s depression days.

I am a Tory who has worked damn hard for forty seven years, and done just about every dirty job in the book. I've come out the other end with NOTHING, largely thanks to Gordon Brown's theft of five billion pounds from our pension funds, so if you expect me to vote labour...well, you get the picture.

There are very large numbers of Tories who didn't get the silver spoon at birth, didn't go to Eton, Harrow, or Oxford University, and they still vote Tory. That should tell you something you didn't know about the Tories.....Like they may not be as bad as you would, in your red eyed hatred, wish them to be.

Labour has done me NO favours, but I don't slag off the party or its voters, just the one or two incompetents who have screwed this country into the ground in the last twelve years. I think you know who.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:33 PM

""As it happens my MP is Anne Widdecombe. I've never voted for her, but she's been one hell of a good MP for us and she certainly hasn't had her snout in the trough. She's made a good living from her writing though, and that I don't begrudge her.""

Ain't it bloody ironic, John......There's socialist you having to praise Anne Widdicombe, and Tory me, stuck with bloody Jonathan Shaw, who swans around like a tart in a trance, and holds open evenings and forums, and does B****r all of any use to man or beast.

Ex Boughton Monchelsea Morrisman, and ex folkie, he wouldn't lift a finger about PELs, and routinely ignores communications from his constituents.

But that's what it comes down to, isn't it? BOTH SIDES HAVE GOOD, AND BAD, whatever Richard and Lizzie may claim (from their different viewpoints) to the contrary.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:37 PM

4 out of how many? As against wall-to-wall Etonians? Yes, I know poor old boys from Slough Grammar (Eton) too, but ask yourself where the rich boys cluster.

Yes, I understand the conservative voters who are not part of the ruling class. Lickspittles and fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:58 PM

Thank you for that charming comment. It says much more about YOU than about me.

I am neither a lickspittle, nor a fool. Even though I may not have achieved the lofty heights occupied by your good self, I am still capable of debate without personal vituperation.

It just goes to show that even a respected lawyer is not necessarily a gentleman.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:32 AM

You're right Don, it was the 'Entertainment' part of the Licensing Act 2003 that really got my goat. I remember saying at the time 'How can a Labour Government do this to us'? But, of course, the last thing that the Blairites and Brownites were and are is Labour. That's why I've consistently voted for the Lib/Dems who have, I believe, a far more Socialist and caring agenda. I'll not vote for the Tories, as they seem now to be 'New Labour' in a different suit.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:47 AM

"I despair of them all, ALL parties, ALL politicians."

I agree oh how I agree.

But (as I said in other threads) I don't do politics I do people.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to Old Labour?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:01 PM

""4 out of how many?""

That is just the four most prominent. I would probably find that more than half fit that profile, IF I could be arsed to waste the time looking.

They all seem to go for the idea of private education for THEIR kids though.

Don T.