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Folk Against Fascism

Folknacious 09 Jun 09 - 10:53 AM
bubblyrat 09 Jun 09 - 11:06 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 11:07 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM
Gervase 09 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM
Banjiman 09 Jun 09 - 11:22 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Jun 09 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith 09 Jun 09 - 11:25 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 11:27 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jun 09 - 11:28 AM
Banjiman 09 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Jun 09 - 11:42 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM
Banjiman 09 Jun 09 - 11:45 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 11:50 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM
Lox 09 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith 09 Jun 09 - 12:02 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM
Dave Sutherland 09 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 09 Jun 09 - 12:13 PM
Folkiedave 09 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM
Azizi 09 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM
The Sandman 09 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM
Azizi 09 Jun 09 - 12:28 PM
mandotim 09 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM
Ruth Archer 09 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM
Amos 09 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM
Amos 09 Jun 09 - 12:40 PM
Spleen Cringe 09 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM
Azizi 09 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM
Matthew Edwards 09 Jun 09 - 12:47 PM
Ruth Archer 09 Jun 09 - 01:04 PM
George Papavgeris 09 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM
Banjiman 09 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM
Azizi 09 Jun 09 - 01:58 PM
The Barden of England 09 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM
bubblyrat 09 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM
Banjiman 09 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM
Gervase 09 Jun 09 - 02:20 PM
Ruth Archer 09 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM
The Barden of England 09 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM
George Papavgeris 09 Jun 09 - 02:55 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Lock and Key 09 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Jun 09 - 03:24 PM
VirginiaTam 09 Jun 09 - 03:25 PM
Mrs.Duck 09 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM
Peace 09 Jun 09 - 03:33 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM
Kampervan 09 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM
Jeri 09 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Jun 09 - 03:58 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 09 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM
Peace 09 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM
Peace 09 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM
Lox 09 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 09 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 09 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM
TheSilentOne 09 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM
The Sandman 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM
Peace 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM
jeddy 09 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM
Peace 09 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM
Tug the Cox 09 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM
Kampervan 09 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM
Lox 09 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 10 Jun 09 - 03:47 AM
theleveller 10 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,FTF ? 10 Jun 09 - 04:01 AM
Spleen Cringe 10 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM
SPB-Cooperator 10 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM
The Sandman 10 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM
Vic Smith 10 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border 10 Jun 09 - 06:23 AM
GUEST 10 Jun 09 - 07:03 AM
treewind 10 Jun 09 - 07:07 AM
Tug the Cox 10 Jun 09 - 07:27 AM
treewind 10 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM
Phil Edwards 10 Jun 09 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,lox 10 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,lox 10 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM
Big Mick 10 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM
GUEST 10 Jun 09 - 10:36 AM
George Papavgeris 10 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM
folkandroots 10 Jun 09 - 10:59 AM
theleveller 10 Jun 09 - 11:00 AM
Bryn Pugh 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM
Tug the Cox 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 10 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM
Big Mick 10 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM
Banjiman 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 AM
Fred McCormick 10 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 10 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM
George Papavgeris 10 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 10 Jun 09 - 11:39 AM
Kampervan 10 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM
greg stephens 10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM
Big Mick 10 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,ifor 10 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 10 Jun 09 - 12:21 PM
MartinRyan 10 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM
greg stephens 10 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM
Banjiman 10 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 10 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM
Fred McCormick 10 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 10 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM
greg stephens 10 Jun 09 - 12:57 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 10 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,lox 10 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM
greg stephens 10 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 10 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM
Andy Jackson 10 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM
treewind 10 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM
Ruth Archer 10 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 10 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM
TheSnail 10 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM
treewind 10 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM
Ruth Archer 10 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 10 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM
Peter the Squeezer 10 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM
Surreysinger 10 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM
Anne Lister 10 Jun 09 - 05:00 PM
Dave Sutherland 10 Jun 09 - 05:48 PM
Stringsinger 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM
Folknacious 10 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM
Azizi 10 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM
Azizi 10 Jun 09 - 07:02 PM
greg stephens 10 Jun 09 - 07:05 PM
Tug the Cox 10 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM
romany man 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM
Tyke 10 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM
Tug the Cox 10 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM
jeddy 10 Jun 09 - 08:09 PM
TheSnail 10 Jun 09 - 09:38 PM
Peace 10 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM
George Papavgeris 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM
Ian Fyvie 10 Jun 09 - 11:20 PM
Azizi 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM
Peace 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jun 09 - 01:32 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM
Ruth Archer 11 Jun 09 - 04:04 AM
Azizi 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM
MartinRyan 11 Jun 09 - 04:43 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 11 Jun 09 - 04:44 AM
Azizi 11 Jun 09 - 04:48 AM
Azizi 11 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM
TheSnail 11 Jun 09 - 05:17 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM
Ruth Archer 11 Jun 09 - 05:34 AM
Ruth Archer 11 Jun 09 - 05:38 AM
Folknacious 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM
theleveller 11 Jun 09 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,lox 11 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM
Fred McCormick 11 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 11 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM
The Sandman 11 Jun 09 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 11 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM
Azizi 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM
Dave Sutherland 11 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM
Folkiedave 11 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM
treewind 11 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM
Banjiman 11 Jun 09 - 08:30 AM
The Sandman 11 Jun 09 - 08:51 AM
Azizi 11 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM
Folknacious 11 Jun 09 - 09:14 AM
MartinRyan 11 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM
The Sandman 11 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM
Stringsinger 11 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,ifor 11 Jun 09 - 10:28 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 11 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM
Andy Jackson 11 Jun 09 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Neil D 11 Jun 09 - 11:56 AM
theleveller 11 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 11 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM
Anne Lister 11 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM
theleveller 11 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 11 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM
Folknacious 11 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM
Dorothy Parshall 11 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM
The Sandman 11 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM
Andy Jackson 11 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM
Andy Jackson 11 Jun 09 - 07:35 PM
TheSnail 11 Jun 09 - 08:42 PM
Ian Fyvie 11 Jun 09 - 10:12 PM
jeddy 11 Jun 09 - 10:22 PM
Dorothy Parshall 11 Jun 09 - 11:54 PM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 01:05 AM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 01:13 AM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 01:51 AM
VirginiaTam 12 Jun 09 - 02:46 AM
Ruth Archer 12 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM
Andy Jackson 12 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM
IanC 12 Jun 09 - 05:00 AM
Andy Jackson 12 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 05:26 AM
Andy Jackson 12 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM
Folknacious 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM
Ruth Archer 12 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM
Lox 12 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 06:24 AM
The Sandman 12 Jun 09 - 06:42 AM
The Sandman 12 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 07:40 AM
treewind 12 Jun 09 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 12 Jun 09 - 07:53 AM
Ruth Archer 12 Jun 09 - 08:02 AM
Folknacious 12 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM
Jack Campin 12 Jun 09 - 08:27 AM
Andy Jackson 12 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM
treewind 12 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM
TheSnail 12 Jun 09 - 09:25 AM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM
Folknacious 12 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM
TheSnail 12 Jun 09 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,Neil D 12 Jun 09 - 09:52 AM
The Sandman 12 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM
TheSnail 12 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM
IanC 12 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM
Darowyn 12 Jun 09 - 10:43 AM
Folknacious 12 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Welsh Viv 12 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 12:25 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM
TheSnail 12 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM
Vic Smith 12 Jun 09 - 02:32 PM
Anne Lister 12 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM
Penny S. 12 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM
melodeonboy 12 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM
greg stephens 12 Jun 09 - 05:53 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Jun 09 - 05:58 PM
Vic Smith 12 Jun 09 - 06:06 PM
jeddy 12 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM
Jack Campin 12 Jun 09 - 07:28 PM
Ruth Archer 12 Jun 09 - 07:59 PM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 08:13 PM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 08:16 PM
The Sandman 12 Jun 09 - 08:47 PM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 09:25 PM
Ruth Archer 12 Jun 09 - 09:31 PM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM
Azizi 12 Jun 09 - 09:54 PM
Ruth Archer 12 Jun 09 - 10:39 PM
SPB-Cooperator 13 Jun 09 - 01:41 AM
Anne Lister 13 Jun 09 - 04:27 AM
Andy Jackson 13 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM
Ruth Archer 13 Jun 09 - 05:02 AM
The Sandman 13 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 13 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,coolkieless Rifleman 13 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM
Anne Lister 13 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM
Darowyn 13 Jun 09 - 01:12 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM
Stringsinger 13 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM
Ruth Archer 13 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 09 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,ifor 13 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM
Dorothy Parshall 13 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM
Peace 13 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM
The Borchester Echo 13 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM
Wolfgang 13 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 13 Jun 09 - 04:05 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 09 - 03:03 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM
theleveller 14 Jun 09 - 05:28 AM
Andy Jackson 14 Jun 09 - 05:30 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM
Andy Jackson 14 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 09 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Silas 14 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Joe P 14 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM
The Sandman 14 Jun 09 - 06:25 AM
SPB-Cooperator 14 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,Silas 14 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Jun 09 - 06:37 AM
Fred McCormick 14 Jun 09 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,Silas 14 Jun 09 - 06:45 AM
Royston 14 Jun 09 - 06:46 AM
PaulF 14 Jun 09 - 07:18 AM
jeddy 14 Jun 09 - 07:30 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jun 09 - 07:40 AM
The Sandman 14 Jun 09 - 08:06 AM
SPB-Cooperator 14 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM
Azizi 14 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jun 09 - 09:06 AM
Azizi 14 Jun 09 - 09:13 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM
Azizi 14 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM
TheSnail 14 Jun 09 - 09:23 AM
theleveller 14 Jun 09 - 09:38 AM
TheSnail 14 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM
Kampervan 14 Jun 09 - 10:04 AM
Vic Smith 14 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM
Dorothy Parshall 14 Jun 09 - 11:49 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM
Stringsinger 14 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM
PaulF 14 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM
Dave Earl 14 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM
The Borchester Echo 14 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM
greg stephens 14 Jun 09 - 01:01 PM
The Borchester Echo 14 Jun 09 - 01:05 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM
fairplay 14 Jun 09 - 01:22 PM
Dave Earl 14 Jun 09 - 01:32 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Jun 09 - 01:39 PM
fairplay 14 Jun 09 - 01:47 PM
theleveller 14 Jun 09 - 01:56 PM
Lox 14 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM
Lox 14 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM
TheSnail 14 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM
Dave Earl 14 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jun 09 - 02:47 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM
GUEST 14 Jun 09 - 03:32 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Jun 09 - 03:37 PM
The Sandman 14 Jun 09 - 03:43 PM
Fred McCormick 14 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM
Spleen Cringe 14 Jun 09 - 04:19 PM
Steve Hunt 14 Jun 09 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,ifor 14 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM
Steve Hunt 14 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM
greg stephens 14 Jun 09 - 05:21 PM
TheSnail 14 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jun 09 - 06:38 PM
GUEST 14 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM
Royston 14 Jun 09 - 06:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 09 - 06:50 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jun 09 - 07:08 PM
Royston 14 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM
Kampervan 14 Jun 09 - 07:34 PM
Kampervan 15 Jun 09 - 02:44 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Jun 09 - 02:58 AM
fairplay 15 Jun 09 - 03:09 AM
Fred McCormick 15 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM
Fred McCormick 15 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM
theleveller 15 Jun 09 - 04:42 AM
Lox 15 Jun 09 - 05:01 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM
Jack Campin 15 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 06:33 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 06:55 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 07:37 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 08:04 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 08:33 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jun 09 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Surreysinger at work 15 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Jun 09 - 09:10 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Neil D 15 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 15 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM
Stringsinger 15 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Andrew Wigglesworth 15 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM
Fred McCormick 15 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM
Andrew Wigglesworth 15 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Trev 15 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM
SPB-Cooperator 15 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 04:24 AM
Vic Smith 16 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM
Lox 16 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 08:48 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM
Andy Jackson 16 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 09:46 AM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 10:10 AM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM
Fred McCormick 16 Jun 09 - 10:26 AM
jeddy 16 Jun 09 - 10:44 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 10:50 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM
IanC 16 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM
jeddy 16 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM
SPB-Cooperator 16 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM
Folkiedave 16 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 09 - 12:09 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 09 - 01:35 PM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM
Scotsman Over The Border 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM
brezhnev 16 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Jun 09 - 03:09 PM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM
Lox 16 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 05:03 PM
jeddy 16 Jun 09 - 05:26 PM
Vic Smith 16 Jun 09 - 05:57 PM
treewind 16 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM
jeddy 16 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM
Tug the Cox 16 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 08:00 PM
Peace 16 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM
Peace 16 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM
jeddy 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 PM
theleveller 17 Jun 09 - 03:28 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 09 - 03:40 AM
treewind 17 Jun 09 - 04:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 05:16 AM
theleveller 17 Jun 09 - 05:46 AM
ard mhacha 17 Jun 09 - 05:48 AM
treewind 17 Jun 09 - 06:04 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Chris Murray 17 Jun 09 - 06:21 AM
ard mhacha 17 Jun 09 - 06:39 AM
Azizi 17 Jun 09 - 07:02 AM
Scotsman Over The Border 17 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM
Mick Tems 17 Jun 09 - 08:10 AM
GUEST 17 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM
ard mhacha 17 Jun 09 - 08:47 AM
The Sandman 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 09:33 AM
Andrew Wigglesworth 17 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,ifor 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM
TheSnail 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM
Andy Jackson 17 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM
Fred McCormick 17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM
Steve Hunt 17 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 17 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM
Azizi 17 Jun 09 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 17 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Jun 09 - 11:48 AM
jeddy 17 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM
Phil Edwards 17 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM
greg stephens 17 Jun 09 - 12:54 PM
Azizi 17 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM
TheSnail 17 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM
The Borchester Echo 17 Jun 09 - 01:19 PM
Vic Smith 17 Jun 09 - 01:33 PM
foggers 17 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM
The Sandman 17 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM
Phil Edwards 17 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM
greg stephens 17 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 17 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 17 Jun 09 - 04:24 PM
ard mhacha 17 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 17 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM
jeddy 17 Jun 09 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM
jeddy 17 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM
Ruth Archer 17 Jun 09 - 06:41 PM
Tug the Cox 17 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Jun 09 - 02:47 AM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Jun 09 - 02:53 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 03:00 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 03:01 AM
GUEST,tom bliss 18 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM
Phil Edwards 18 Jun 09 - 03:10 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM
theleveller 18 Jun 09 - 04:57 AM
Andy Jackson 18 Jun 09 - 05:54 AM
Andy Jackson 18 Jun 09 - 05:55 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Jun 09 - 06:12 AM
Andy Jackson 18 Jun 09 - 06:19 AM
Jim McLean 18 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 06:28 AM
Banjiman 18 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM
Tug the Cox 18 Jun 09 - 07:21 AM
theleveller 18 Jun 09 - 07:51 AM
Lox 18 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM
Stringsinger 18 Jun 09 - 10:12 AM
Lox 18 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 10:39 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 09 - 12:10 PM
ard mhacha 18 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 09 - 12:48 PM
jeddy 18 Jun 09 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM
The Borchester Echo 18 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,jock 18 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM
theleveller 18 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM
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Subject: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:53 AM

Apologies if this has already been flagged up, but I was just emailed news of this new Facebook group and organisation which seems to have gone from nothing to nearly 600 members in less than two days.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:06 AM

Depends what you mean by "Fascism"-----a great many people today seem to be confusing it with Patriotism,sadly.One only has to calmly and logically express the opinion (to which one is fully entitled)that there is too much uncontrolled immigration into this country (UK)and people are jumping up and down crying "Racist ! "--"Fascist!"--"Nazi !" in a frenzy of Do -Goodery. Please calm down,and allow the majority to be heard properly before slandering them.Then go and live in the country of your favourite foreign ethnic group (if they'll have you !!).And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:07 AM

Folk Against Fascism is growing by leaps and bounds, as it should, treminding one (even though I'm too young to really remember) of
Rock Against Racism

May the spirit never die!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM

"And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou"

Your listening must be very limited in that case, as a large amount of folk music(whatever that is)is politically oriented. Time to take off the blinkers and take some social responsibilty. It was the head in the sand attitude that brought Hitler to his full flowering.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM

And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou.
Honestly, there's no hope for some people!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

"And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou."

Bubblyrat, I think you might not be appreciating the purpose of the campaign.

It's not as such a 'political' movement (though it's going to be impossible for it not to become so), as demonstrating a collective dissaproval of fascist politics currently deliberately appropriating our collective folk music as a form of pro-fascist propaganda - precisely as happened in Nazi Germany. As others have commented German folk music has never fully recovered from the stain of being forced into prostitution to very dark political ends.

This is not a 'politicising' of folk music as such, but an attempt to reclaim it from those who *ARE* currently politicising it to a fascist agenda. I hope you might recognise the difference.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:22 AM

"And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou. "

How else do we counter the odious BNP threat...... or do you think their policy of repatriation for non-whites is a good one?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:23 AM

PS. JoanC good job!

I don't do Facebook, so I hope that this thread might perhaps offer the rest of us, an update on progress.
Much interested to hear more, and hopefully participate in any ways appropriate.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:25 AM

It was started because the f******* BNP have said that they are the only people who can save Morris dancing and folk customs. This site is for people to say that they don't want the BNP talking for or having anything to do with English customs. We can manage them ourselves without help from scum like that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:27 AM

Just accept the fact that politics has been involved in folk music (whatever that is) for a VERY long time.
Sorry to be soooooooo... tedious *LOL*


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:28 AM

I most certainly do not confuse patriotism with xenophobia or fascism, but I do not recognise the bubblyrat version as capable of being distinguished from the sordid peddlings of the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM

I don't do facebook either.... any chance of starting a MySpace page as well?

Paul Arrowsmith


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM

You may have to do Facebook...I've said the same thing, but JoanieC is tempting me.... *sigh*


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:42 AM

Aye... I hate those FakeFriends sites (except music), but I might join for this.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM

Myspace is on its way, as is a website.

The website will be for information about plans - everything from making stickers and badges available to a large-scale concert or tour (and given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen). The Myspace will hopefully help the community to grow, and showcase some of the artists who are involved.

Considering that this whole idea is only a day old, I'm frankly staggered at the response. It's clearly hit a nerve with a lot of people.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:45 AM

Eddie/ Joan,

Anything either we or Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club can do to help..... just let me know.

Paul & Wendy Arrowsmith


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:50 AM

Right at this moment I'm listening to the Albion Country Band's Battle of the Field, particularly Richard Thompson's The New St. George/La Rotta, on my MP3 player. It's VERY inspiring, I want to get up and dance, unfortunately I'm in the library...they might fron a bit *LOL*


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

Cheers - that's great.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Thing is bubblyrat that when questioned, you have said on other threads that your reason for being concerned about immigration basically boils down to not liking different looking people around.

I could go and get the post - I think it might have been in the carol thatcher thread - but your big concern was that basically you didn't see why you had to have foreigners in your town, for no other reason than that it is your town and you don't like them there.

In the absence of any other rationale, that is best described as discriminating on the basis of someone elses race.


That's why people shout "racist" - its cos of the racist things you say.


Generally I think its realistic, if you say racist things, to expect someone to call you racist.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

"given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen"

It's fantastic. I've been in something of a rash over this stuff since I cottoned on when I first got into folk six months ago. Wonderful to see someone like JoanC who's so perfectly placed to do so, ready to take the bulldog by the balls... So to speak. Really exciting news.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM

Yeah...already kinda waiting for the poo to be posted through my door.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:02 PM

Rifleman!! My favourite album! My copy has got scratched to bits, I need another.

'When the sun comes up in the morning, and you hear the dancing boys...'

Rich


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM

>Archer ref. eventually clicks...!< :-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM

Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs.
Folk singers demonstrated at the Anti- Vietnam rallies and sang the songs in the folk clubs.
Folk singers demonstrated against the Poll Tax and sang anti - Thatcher songs in the folk clubs.
Now it looks like there will be some anti - BNP songs sung in the folk clubs and festivals.
Sounds like it has been pretty "tedious" for the last fifty years!!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:13 PM

Let me know about the MySpace, Joan, and anything I can do. Tom.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM

Depends what you mean by "Fascism"-----a great many people today seem to be confusing it with Patriotism,sadly.

Nope perfectly clear in my mind.

The BNP are a fascist party and there is a video of Nick Griffin denying the holocaust.

Filthy race based politics and Folk Against Fascism is designed to stop these people infiltrating (as per their orgnisers handbook) into local folk customs.

Well done Joanie.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM

I also want to say "Well done!" to JoanC.

I have a MySpace page but don't have a FaceBook account. I'll jump on board when the MySpace page is launched.

**

Dave listed these examples of folk singer's involvement in politics:


Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs.
Folk singers demonstrated at the Anti- Vietnam rallies and sang the songs in the folk clubs.
Folk singers demonstrated against the Poll Tax and sang anti - Thatcher songs in the folk clubs.

-snip-

Expanding this list outside of Britain, Folk singers sang songs during the civil rights movement in the USA.

It might be a good idea to include such a listing on the FaceBook/MySpace pages or at least on the upcoming Folk Against Fascism website.

What else can be added to this list?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM

Rich I still have my copy (given to me for my 21st bithday, by my parents)on vinyl, very scratched like yours *LOL* My sister found it on CD, in, of all places, a chain record shop (A&B Sound) in Victoria, BC, Canada, and I've transfered it to my MP/ player for listening when I want to (like now)

Now is the time for action,
Leave your satisfaction:
Can't you hear St George's tune?
St George's tune is calling you on!
Freedom was your mother,
Fight for one another:


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM

well done, Joan.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:28 PM

BTW, if the FaceBook and MySpace Folk Against Fascism pages are meant to have international membership* you might want to stay away from or at least define the acronyms.

For instance, I don't know what "CND" means in this sentence "Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs."

* It occurs to me that maybe that organization is only meant for people living in Europe. Can some one clarify this?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM

Well done Joan, I'm in.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM

Azizi, it's for anyone who opposes what the BNP is currently doing in the UK by trying to appropriate our national customs and music as part of their racist agenda, or indeed what any White Supremacist organisation (for, by identifying that they share values with the KKK, this is what they are) do when they try and usurp a national identity and claim it as theirs and theirs alone.

The focus will largely be on the campaign as it unfolds in the UK. But you will be most welcome. :)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM

Azizi:

THe people who first used what later became the "Peace" symbol were British anti-nuke demonstrators who frequently marched under the flag of the Committee for Nuclear Disarmament, with banners showing the semaphoric lines-in-a-circle that (rumor has it) was first designed by GB Shaw. The symbol was taken up and made even more widely known by the youth of the Sixties in the US who used it to symbolize protest against the LBJ War in Vietnam.

A


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:40 PM

Correction:

"One of the most widely known symbols in the world, in Britain it is recognised as standing for nuclear disarmament —and in particular as the logo of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). In the United States and much of the rest of the world it is known more broadly as the peace symbol. It was designed in 1958 by Gerald Holtom, a professional designer and artist and a graduate of the Royal College of Arts. He showed his preliminary sketches to a small group of people in the Peace News office in North London and to the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War, one of several smaller organisations that came together to set up CND.

The Direct Action Committee had already planned what was to be the first major anti-nuclear march, from London to Aldermaston, where British nuclear weapons were and still are manufactured. It was on that march, over the 1958 Easter weekend that the symbol first appeared in public. Five hundred cardboard lollipops on sticks were produced. Half were black on white and half white on green. Just as the church's liturgical colours change over Easter, so the colours were to change, "from Winter to Spring, from Death to Life." Black and white would be displayed on Good Friday and Saturday, green and white on Easter Sunday and Monday.

The first badges were made by Eric Austin of Kensington CND using white clay with the symbol painted black. Again there was a conscious symbolism. They were distributed with a note explaining that in the event of a nuclear war, these fired pottery badges would be among the few human artifacts to survive the nuclear inferno. These early ceramic badges can still be found and one, lent by CND, was included in the Imperial War Museum's 1999/2000 exhibition From the Bomb to the Beatles. "


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM

Great idea Joan. I've joined up. BTW, I reckon if they come knocking you'd be better off pushing the dogpoo out of the letter box at them!

Now off to listen to 'Battle of the Field' on the way home...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM

Thanks for that clarification, Eddie. Count me in!

I guess because the organization is for anyone who opposes the BNP's attempt or any other White Supremacist organization's attempt to appropriate British national customs and music as part of their racist strategies, you may not have to include explanations of what all those more obscure (to non-British people) alphabet references like CND mean. However, it still might be something that you want to provide on your page or website for those who are supporting the organization from outside of the UK.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:47 PM

Well done to JoanieC for setting this up. Another disturbing feature of the European election results has been the election of MEPs from the extreme Jobbik party in Hungary. This is an openly anti-semitic party which has also supported persecution of the Roma community. This Observer report of 3 May 2009 shows how widespread and dangerous the persecution of Gypsies in Hungary has already become, and what the Jobbik policy towards the Roma means.

So since June 2009 is Gypsy Roma Traveller History Month lets celebrate the cultural achievements of these communities too. There is a very interesting looking DVD on sale called 'The First Traveller' with songs stories and music, including a contribution from Sheila Stewart MBE.

Matthew Edwards


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:04 PM

Folk Against Fascism Myspace


I should add that while I've actually been working today, other people have been beavering away at this stuff. Steve Hunt made the Myspace. Chris Williams made the logo. All credit. I'm just the messenger.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I'm there, on both.
My concern is that there should be follow-up; not just people signing up and thinking they've done their bit. This isn't simply a petition, I see it as signing-on for action.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM

Agreed George.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:58 PM

Oh, that CNP

:o)

Yes, I know that symbol as "the peace symbol".

Thanks for that info.

And btw, I've joined the MySpace page and will forward information about that page to my MySpace friends.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM

I've put the following on my 'Facebook' page

'In memory of my Tollpudle brothers, I am delighted to join my fellows in the 'Folk against fascism' fight.

We ARE the power, we ARE the might,
we ARE the ones, who will show what's wrong and right.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Well, I just watched the evening news on BBC television,and was saddened to see and hear about the disruption to the BNP's Press Conference----it would have been interesting to see what they had to say !! This organisation,which I do NOT support ( I voted Green & UKIP in the recent elections,if you must know), is,however, NOT illegal (sadly) and therefore there is NO justification for the crass behaviour of the baying mob that disrupted its activities. So who is being the more intolerant, controlling,bigoted,selective and prejudiced here then ?? Even if you HATE HATE HATE the BNP,which most of you / us do, they STILL HAVE THE RIGHT ,in our democracy,both to their views and to be heard.Only a REAL FASCIST would deny them that !!! That's the point that I am trying to get across,that my father fought for in WW2,and to which your intense HATRED has blinded you.There are ways to get rid of the BNP---But yours is not it ! Or is Democracy itself that you REALLY hate,because that's how you are coming across ? Is it too permissive for your Fascist views ??


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM

Bubblyrat.... I don't think anyone here were involved in disrupting their Press conference..... surely in this country of free speech we are allowed to get our point across as well?

Through words and songs I hope!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:20 PM

Sorry? Mine's not what?
The Folk Against Fascism campaign has nothing whatsoever to do with denying free speech or chucking eggs at people. Shaky eggs, maybe...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM

As far as I know, it was no member of the Folk Against Fascism group that threw eggs at Nick Griffin, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

This is about a specific agenda and set of policies - the appropriation of British traditional music and culture to suit a racist and nationalist agenda. It's about raising awareness of that attampted appropriation, and standing up against it. It is not about throwing eggs at Nick Griffin or preventing him from speaking, no matte rhow poisonous his views might be, and not long before you psoted on this matter, I was explaining exactly that to my 15 year old daughter.

So I'm not sure who you're screeching at, but I think your tirade might be somewhat misdirected.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM

It's DEMOCRACY. I have no truck with what went on today. It's the same as Mandelson getting green custard in the face though - and I didn't see your comment on that 'bubblyrat'
The BNP has a right to exist, and we have the right to harrangue, verbally not physically, so I believe the idiots who threw eggs today have done the BNP a favour. Woe is me.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:55 PM

No hate over here, Roger. Quite a lot of joy in fact, at living in a multi-ethnic, multicultural street, and I celebrated it in a song, which hopefully should be going up on the FAF Myspace page soon (thanks, Steve), albeit in a rough, unmixed version. It is intended as the opening track of my upcoming album, so it puts my stake in the ground so to speak. Here goes:

STREET LIFE (October 2008 - all the characters are real)

Monday morning, treading softly as I leave the house for work
Chris next door had late shift Sunday night
Full-time guard and part-time fireman, not a moment to himself
And to wake him up would not be right.
Tuesday and Mujeeb's good lady's grinding spices for their meal
Aromas through the window they escape
We all stop outside a moment just to savour the perfume
It's a wonder how he stays in shape
   A different story every day of the week
   As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
   And I don't care much where they come from
   Who they pray to, what they eat,
   But I am lucky living down our street

Seven thirty, engines starting, scrapers scratching at the ice
Hunter gatherers barely half awake
Smiling grimly at each other, p'rhaps today will turn out nice
Thursday morning, two more trips to make
Janusz waiting by his front door for his morning lift to come
Sandwich and banana in a towel
All day working up the scaffold to bring home his daily crumb
He's so good with mortar board and trowel
   A different story every day of the week
   As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
   And I don't care much where they come from
   Who they pray to, what they eat,
   But I am lucky living down our street

Love you Mummy, Love you Daddy, down at Number 54
Little angels on their way to school
Hop skip jumping to whatever life might have for them in store
May their winter years never be cruel.
Friday night, the youngsters heading for the town to paint it red
Learning lessons others learned before
They'll be back before the day breaks, empty pockets, throbbing heads
(they'd) Better not be banging on the door
   A different story every day of the week
   As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
   And I don't care much where they come from
   Who they pray to, what they eat,
   But I am lucky living down our street

Sunday morning, dozen mowers buzzing like a swarm of bees
Perfect time for barbecue and beer
Cross the valley watch the walkers chasing dogs among the trees
And I swear that I've just seen a deer.
Sunday evening, all is quiet, windows darken one by one
Like a tunnel swallowing a train
Soon enough alarms will ring like cockerels heralding the sun
And we'll start the cycle once again
   A different story every day of the week
   As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
   And I don't care much where they come from
   Who they pray to, what they eat,
   But I am lucky living down our street


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

Bubblyrat...if you're not going to help, please don't hinder those of us who're prepared to stand and be counted!

It's that simple!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Lock and Key
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM

Well said (as usual) George.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:24 PM

Bubblyrat, I think as JC/Eddie may have stated, that the egg throwers are not likely to be amongst this exceedingly new gathering of folk enthusiasts - who are joining in order to express their collective objection (as they are right to do?) to the appropriation of folk music to a very specific and ugly right-wing political agenda.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:25 PM

Damn! What I miss because I can't access Mudcat at work.

Well, I am not going to rise to the dissenters. Not worth my time.

What I am going to say is YAYRAH Joanie!

I will add both Facebook and Myspace as friends or join the group or whatever it is I do, forthwith.

Hmmm? Is there a Folk Against Facism on Twitter?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:33 PM

Mudcat management seems to disagree with you, Mrs Duck.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM

"
Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever!"

Let them speak, with every lie they tell, they dig their grave deeper.

By th way (and I blame JoanieC for this, *LOL*) I'm now a member of facebook and am a member of the Folk Against Fascism group, seek out the photograph of the cover of Battle of the Field (in seemed appropriate.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

Sorry Mrs Duck, but I believe that you're wrong.

I loath the BNP and their view of the world, but the minute that you remove their right to speak then you become as bad as them.

The important to thing to do is to speak against them and make sure that everyone knows the evil that lies behind their propaganda.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM

Keeping people from posting is like keeping people from shouting out their opinions on a crowded city street corner.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:58 PM

"Then let's DO that on their fucking site. NOT on MUdcat."

It's called freedom of speech...deny that and as has been pointed out, you become as bad as the enemy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

As with when we vote for parliament, it's all about numbers. If there's one post here supporting or appearing to support the BNP, let there be hundreds, thousands, saying the opposite.

I say the opposite.

Let them have their say, but let it be a whisper against a roar for reason, decency, tolerance, goodwill, equality and welcome.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM

Then tell management to allow the BNP as many threads as they want. NOT just one.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Or are people going to give 'freedom of speech' lip service?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

I don't condone the throwing of eggs.


I think it undermines the protest and allows the BNP to claim the moral high ground.

Note that I did not say it gives them the moral high ground, just that it allows them to claim it.


I completely condone Folk against Fascism as it constitutes a forum in which the issue of Fascist politics can be constructively and informatively be addressed.


Bubblyrat, well done for voting the way you did. My personal view is that UKIP are atrocious, but they are at least a party of issues, even if only on a shallow level.

Your vote for the Greens well and truly puts me in my place.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

Sorry, is that addressed at me?

By all means, as many as they want. This is Mudcat's greatest strength (and greatest weakness).

Our job is not to silence them (tempting though that is), it is to be better informed and more convincing than they are - and also to address the the things that cause people to support the BNP in the first place.

Because it is surely all of our faults that they exist, and now have that voice.

Tom Bliss


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM

Sorry Lox - that was to Peace

Tom


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM

Folk Against Fascism is a great idea, and hopefully will develop into a great movement.

A long time ago I was in the Anti-Nazi League. I don't think denying the BNP any platform is an effective tactic, but I DO think the opportunity should be taken to hold counter-demonstrations on every possible occasion.

I do have a dilemma because I can't accept that an organisation which excludes non-whites from membership should even have the right to exist in a democratic society. But.. I don't see how it can sensibly be banned.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM

If I was a middle bar singer at Sidmouth and Georgina Dale[MBSGeorge the unsuccessful BNP Chippenham candidate ] turned up I would walk out .


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM

Not specifically, Tom. I didn't intend any offense to you. If you took any, sorry.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

i am in two minds here as are a lot of you i am sure.   as much as i would love to ban any bnp supporter from ever talking their crap on any platform, i also don't want to be just like them in that not everyone has a right to free speech. i would rather have them say what they want on places like this and have them shown for the ignorant, racist,etc. that they are. than them meeting in secret and jumping out of bushes with no way of knowing what they are up to and where they will go next.

sorry if that made no sense but i am sure you can work out where i was trying to go with it.

the protsters have just as much right to be heard as the people they were protesting about it is about convincing the public of which side has the better arguement, as for the eggs... i dissagree with any violence and any form of assult, but i must admit if i had seen it i probably would have found it funny.

i think we need to stay together and not to argue some small point that will ultimately lead to falling out amongst ourselves

the people united,
will never be defeated.

if we all do our bit then victory will be ours.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM

I just applied to the Folk Against Fascism Myspace site. However, I ain't folk. Unless folk is the term used for people. I am that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM

Some of the respondents above don't seem to have grasped the point about freedom of speech and fascists. They don't like freedom of speech, but are prepared to abuse it if people are foolish enough to give them a platform.
It is not about a civilised debate with reason and evidence prevailing. In an audience of 100, if 98 smug liberals walk away congratulating themselves that they have 'won ' the argument', but two despersate, angry and dispossesed youths are attracted to the fascist methods, and join, the fascists have a huge result. They would laugh at self satisfied dismissals, and continue to prey on the vulnerable, which the liberals have provided them with.
If this 'Debate' is legitimised by a public institution like a University or church, the result is harrassment of local minority groups, who see those who hate them being given credibility.
NO platform for Racists and fascists.....believe me, after being involved in these issues for over 35 years, every inch given is a probable mile taken.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease.

Loathsome though the BNP may be, we have to use open democratic ways to defeat them; otherwise they go underground and become even more difficult to counter.

They are riding on the wake of the mess that the main parties have created. It's up to everyone of all political persuasions to help put right the sleaze and corruption and then make mainstream politics more attractive. That way voters won't feel the need to register a protest vote with bigots like the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM

Like prostitution and drug dealing it goes underground.

On the surface it can be managed.

There is no way of rebutting arguments that are made behind closed doors.

Those two youths could be persuaded at any time.

They are less likely to be persuaded if there are other voices there pointing out the errors and misinformation of the BNP argument.

The key with all of the above is openness and honest well documented non judgemental information.

An educated person is a well armed and well prepared person.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:47 AM

Over 800 members already!
When I first looked at the site yesterday, it must have been brand new as it had about 30 members. Looking forward to seeing the website when up and running. Will the organiser/s be seeking charity status? I don't know how constructive or otherwise such a move might be, but it would seem a possible logical option for fund raising activities directed at awareness raising.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM

"Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever! "

I'll second that! We have laws against inciting racial hatred, which is what BNP members do ever time they speak in public. The egg-throwers were merely drawing attention to the fact that these people need to be silenced or their invidious views could influence people, especially those who are exercising their voting rights for the first time, into thinking that this is legitimate politics.

Folk music has a long and honourable tradition of opposing extremism of this sort and I welcome the opportunity to be part of movement like Folk Against Fascism.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,FTF ?
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:01 AM

Crow Sister -

Please elaborate upon your statement - SOURCE - Three Sources???

As others have commented German folk music has never fully recovered from the stain of being forced into prostitution to very dark political ends.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM

I always slightly worry when the spokespeople for these sorts of protests try to claim they are acting with the moral authority of their community - who elected them? I think it would be a far more honest and powerful statement to say:

"The first egg was for holocaust denial. The second was for inciting racial hatred. The third was for anti-semitism. The forth was for being a liar..." and so on.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM

I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group.

"Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister".

There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them.

But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me.

You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM

Only a suggestion.

Could this thread be mainly used for promoting the facebook group, promoting folk against facism gigs and events, discussions on the role of folk song and music in standing up to oppression both now and historically, and providing an opportunity for performers and audiences to identify themselves under the folk against fascism banner.

That would then keep the political debate in the two BS threads, and hopefully keep the trolls and BNP propagandists out of this one.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM

I was reluctant to join facebook,but since this is such an important issue,I have joined Folk against Fascism.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM

I don't want to see people like Joan and George repatriated


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:23 AM

Many thanks to Matthew Edwards for those links on the Roma and Travellers.

Let the BNP speak, their so-called policies last about two seconds when held up to any kind of scrutiny.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:03 AM

I'm not joining Facebook even for this, but on MySpace I'm glad to see that my friend request to FAF and theirs to me crossed in cyberspace!

And SPB-Cooperator: fully agreed - let's keep the political debate out of this thread and restrict discussions (as far as possible) to promoting this cause.

I'll put something on our web site too - especially if Folk against Fascism starts a real web site of its own and I can link to it. If someone hasn't started one yet, I'm offering free hosting space for it.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:07 AM

I'm not joining Facebook even for this, but on MySpace I'm glad to see that my friend request to FAF and theirs to me crossed in cyberspace!

And SPB-Cooperator: fully agreed - let's keep the political debate out of this thread and restrict discussions (as far as possible) to promoting this cause.

I'll put something on our web site too - especially if Folk against Fascism starts a real web site of its own and I can link to it. If someone hasn't started one yet, I'm offering free hosting space for it.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:27 AM

'Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease'

Kampervan, what exactly are you sorry about? Sounds either smug or patronising to me.

   We disagree, and it is not a trivial disagreement. I believe that it stances like yours that allowed fascism a foothold in the past, and could possibly do so again.

   Your quite accurate description of how civilised debate works in a kiberal democracy crucially relies on BOTH sides signing up to the rules. fascist groupd don't, they loathe and despise notions such as democracy and fre speeech. Whenever they have abused the democratic process to gaion a foothold, thet use the same process to suspend democracy and make fredom of speech a treasonable offence.
    The Psychology and tactics of fasxist movements is well documented, this is not a matter of opinion.
   Holding meetings, rallies, broadcasts etc. are used, when allowed, not to debate, but to syphon off the disaffected. No.... the two youths mentioned above could not have been recruited at any time, it is the particular circumstances in a highly charged political meeting that are used to prey on their emotions, not their intellect. having others present to refute the fascisit is negatively effective.... the targeted disaffected youths already feel betrayed and outcast by threxse pillars of the liberal society.
   Fortunately, most of our politiciana are not so naive. No-one, form any political party, was willing to share a platform with the Nationakl Front in the European referendum debate of the 70's, and the NF were denied a platform for their hatred. Nowadays, all parties refuse to appear on programmes like question time if the BNP are invited. Again, a platform that would be used to intimidate and recruit the dispossessed is denied.
   Mosley and his Blackshirts were stopped, not by debate, but because working class activists in solidarity with the jewish community built barricades an rrefused the Fascists their 'legal, democratic right' to 'peacefully' demonstrate and propagandise. The 'battle of Cable Street' is a landmark in opposing fascism
   NO platform for racisits and fascists, ever.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

"NO platform for racisits and fascists, ever"
You simply can't say that in a post that criticises another group for despising free speech!
The uncomfortable corollary of free speech is that it allows others to say things you disagree with. Of couse, as Hubert Humphrey famously said, "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously" and Voltaire "I don't agree with what you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it". I don't actually feel comfortable about the "incitement to racial hatred" act because it's the thin end of the wedge of censorship of free speech.

Anyway, nobody can stop Folk against Fascism from promoting its own message, so that's what we should be doing, loudly and frequently.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:37 AM

I think this is a brilliant initiative (and so does Pip Radish, who will be back shortly).

We (liberal anti-fascists) tend to tie ourselves in knots about freedom of speech. I think it's worth distinguishing between what the law guarantees and what people want. Where I live, there was massive opposition to the opening of a new Tesco's last year - so much so that they were initially refused planning permission. They went to appeal and won, and they duly built the store and opened it - as they had every right to do. But if protesters had stopped the building going ahead, I think most people around here would have thought they were in the right.

The BNP have every right to organise as a legal political party, and Griffin is an elected MEP and has every right to do that job: I would be 100% opposed to any attempt to ban the party or to have the fat fascist locked up. But if anti-fascists want to make it a bit harder for them to organise, or for Griffin to get his message across, then I'm not going to tell them they're in the wrong. It may be a tactical error - the counter-demo yesterday almost certainly was - but that's a separate issue.

Anyway, FaF is a great initiative. Pip isn't joining Facebook either, but he's with you in spirit.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM

I accept richard bridges point that freedom of speech does not include the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre.

However, I also think that a well targeted, concise and non pompous confrontation of the BNP can have the result of the anti BNP message spreading.

Those two hypothetical lads might go back to their estate after witnessing such an encounter and carry the fight on when they encounter it there in a way that they might not have done had they not had the chance to hear the BNP view properly tested and shown up.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

As for the eggs, guess whose ugly mug was on the front page of "The Metro" today ...

(the Metro is a free national paper found on buses and trains all over the country and as such is probably th most widely read paper in the UK).


And as it was because of the egg throwing that it got there, it meant that the papers had to focus on that aspect of the story.

It meant that Griffin got to be quoted giving his response.

Now there's a big f***ing platform if ever there was one ... well done egg throwers!!!

It meant that the newspapers, in all fairness, so as not to be seen condoning any type of assault, had to ask the egg throwers what the hell they were doing.

Do you think that any newspaper is going to condone that kind of approach?

They will report the story.

The story was that an elected politician was assaulted.

It meant that the arguments against the BNP were drowned in a scrum and that Nick Griffin got to stand up in front of the whole country and look ... ahem ... whiter than white.


No Platform for Fascists?


I'm afraid that slogans like that will not cut it as a strategy to beat the BNP.


You have to plan more than one move ahead. You have to be cleverer than them.


You have to prove it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM

What are you afraid of? That they will lure some easily influenced person into their snare? That is pretty paternalistic, and shows a lack of respect for the intelligence of average folks. To me it seems that it is our job to expose their ugly agenda. FAF is a great start. Challenging their point of view everywhere they spout it is the hard work. Banning is a lazy response, and it doesn't work. Doing so gives them "high road, victim" status. I prefer them in the light of day where their bigotry is easily seen.

And remember that this sword has two edges. When you limit one persons ability to espouse ideas (even vile bigotted ones), how do we justify not limiting yours.

And finally, as a matter of policy, we don't limit what folks talk about, with very few exceptions, such as anything that is considered personal attack.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:36 AM

100% with you Mick, on all counts. It is this potential of turning them to "martyrs" that worries me most of all. No, I prefer the BNP to continue and act as a focus for their hateful policies - that way we know were the danger lies. And by all means, let them join us in debate. Not sloganeering, name-calling or misquoting but normal, common-or-garden debate.

We wouldn't change their minds or persuade them, of course. No one can. They have thought all these things through and made up their minds - if we think differently then we would be naive. But a public debate gets to be heard/read by the public. It is for their benefit that we should have it. Every chance we get.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM

Sorry, that last GUEST was cookieless me...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: folkandroots
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:59 AM

The problem perhaps with such debates is what you could be debating isnt what they actually think nor stand for but a very much watered down (for public consumption) version of this, the holocaust denial, enforced sterilisation the more dangerous racist agenda will be kept underwraps. Personally I have no doubt that some of those who have joined have been fooled (and are probably fools) and arent quite aware of what it is they have joined.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:00 AM

"And as it was because of the egg throwing that it got there, it meant that the papers had to focus on that aspect of the story."

So you think the protesters might have over-egged it a bit?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

Deal me in. I endorse everything said in this thread, particularly what Crow Sister posted.

The problem, as I see it, in denying the BNP pond life a platform is that they might be perceived as martyrs -

"Just as we told you - those lefties deny us a platform because they are feared of our message".

(Just realised that I am repeating that which Big Mick, and George P, said above. Duh ! {it has been a long day] ).

May I say that I abominate the BNP and everything it stands for, just in case my comments above might be misinterpreted.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

'NO platform for racists and fascists' doesn't mean that they can't organise or say what they want.....and others are free to counteract them, shout them down or whatever,...thats a matter of tactical preferences.
It means not affording them a platform, i.e inviting them on yo your own or others'platforms, and campaigning to stop public institutions offering platforms to those who use them to intimidate and harrass part of the community.
There are many things that are legal, but are wrong. legislation always falls behind shifts in public opinion and tolearance.
Remeber Cable Street.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

"So you think the protesters might have over-egged it a bit? "

eggsackly!
-Tommy Handley, ITMA

wonder who was egging them on, and then egging them off?

"I prefer them in the light of day where their bigotry is easily seen."

one more time.......

"The British National Party would probably make it into a parliament elected by proportional representation, too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of."

- Billy Bragg in an interview with The Guardian, 2004


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM

Folkandroots, how did you figure it out? Do you believe that most others are not as capable as you of figuring it out? I ask this not to be argumentative, but to make a point. As to your point about the real agenda vs. What is being put out for public debate, that is known as shifting the premise, as well as having a hidden agenda. Of course they will do that. It is the only way that people with vile agendas can appeal to the great middle. It is our job to expose that, and have enough respect for the intelligence of average folks to get it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 AM

You might have seen this but as far as I understand it this is properly researched at Lancaster University:

    "On a party-by-party basis, the average (childhood) IQ scores for 2001 voters were:

       Green - 108.3

       Liberal Democrat - 108.2

       Conservative - 103.7

       Labour – 103

       Plaid Cymru - 102.5

       Scottish National - 102.2

       UK Independence - 101.1

       British National - 98.4

       Did not vote/None of the above - 99.7"

My point is you're not dealing with "average" folks..........

Paul


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM

Anyone who saw Nick Griffin being interviewed on Sky news will have seen one sad sick sorry bigoted son of a bitch being tied up in knots by one not overly penetrating interviewer. When the guy asked him about the ethnic qualification of BNP membership, Griffin had no answer. When he was asked why the BNP wouldn't allow the building of mosques in this country, he made a complete fool of himself. When he was asked about repatriation and the rights of British born 'ethnic' peoples he could not give a consistent answer.

That is the way to fight fascism. Show the illogicality of their so called policies. Show the socio/economic/ecological disaster which would result if this bunch of plonkers ever got into power. Show anyone who thinks otherwise what the logical outcome of a BNP government would mean in terms of their personal freedom. Demonstrate against them. March against them. Leaflet against them. Barrack their street meetings and picket their private gatherings. In short,exhaust all reasonable avenues of protest.

But throwing eggs is just plain stupid. It is counterproductive, and it is about what one would expect from the tattooed skinheads which the BNP seems designed to attract.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM

"I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group.

"Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister".

There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them.

But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me.

You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties."

How dreadfully unpleasant.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM

C


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:39 AM

"But throwing eggs is just plain stupid. It is counterproductive"

a waste of eggs as well!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM

T.t.C., I was being neither smug nor patronising and I apologise if that's how it came across. I shouldn't have started my posting with the word 'sorry'.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Whilst I agree with you about the potentially appalling efffects of the BNP obtaining any form of power, I disagree with you about preventing them from being able to organise or speak.
I have sufficient faith in the intelligence and commonsense of the majority of the British public to believe that they would never vote these Fascists into power.
Their appeal will only ever be to a minority.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures? I have spent various chunks of my life recording the music of various immigrant/refugee/asylum seeker people in this country, because I love folk music basically. To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. The politics is the personal.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM

Paul Banjiman, with respect, your post is very troubling. I have known many people of average or even below average "IQ" who are great contributors to society. Conversely, Adolph Hitler had an IQ higher than Al Gore's. It seems to me that you are implying something that is very troubling.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

I am delighted at the formation of Folk Against Fascism. And I must say that I was also very cheered to see the odious Nick Griffin and his nazi mate getting their comeuppance yesterday outside Parliament.
They did not look like steely jawed members of the master race as they fled in panic to their waiting car.Well done to the Unite Against Fascism supporters for confronting those vile fascists and no platform for nazis!
ifor


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:21 PM

"To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest"

Speak for yourself, and maybe, just maybe, it's time for some people to take off the blinkers and have a look around!! A good start would be to join the Folk Against Fascism facebook group.
and Folk Against Fascism not being inclusive..Oh come on...yeesh!!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM

My point is you're not dealing with "average" folks..........

You talking about the Greens? They're the furthest from the average in the set you quote!

The (mis)use of IQ data in this way is ironic in view of the fact that such measures have long been criticised for having racist overtones.

Regards
p.s. More seriously, of course, a little knowledge of the Normal Distribution wouldn't go amiss.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM

Riflerman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music. I think if you look at my post, you will see that it is a main, indeed an obesssional interest of mine. I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

Big Mick, I'm implying nothing, merely posting the outcome of what I assume is validated research.

Your suggestion was not to insult the intelligence of average folks..... I was merely posting a clue as to where the BNP leadership aim their messages.

Please don't look for "isms" where they don't exist. As an ex mental health nurse I am fully aware of the value that all sorts of apparently "challenged" & "different" people can bring to society.

I don't think there was anything in my post above that questioned anyone's contribution to society.

For avoidance of doubt I'm not a Green or Lib Dem voter so claim no great I.Q. for myself.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM

For anyone interested (I don't think it's been posted here yet?), here's a link to the FaF MySpace page


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM

Personally, I'm not interested in much non-English folk song (apart from the occasional Scottish song and the very occasional Irish or American song - and I do do some contemporary stuff too) not least because if my ability to understand the lyrics is diminished by language matters much of the song is not truly available to me, and also because I deeply regret the lack of interest in traditional English song, but on the occasions that I have seen African or Asian or "influenced by" players in folk song sessions, they have always been very warmly welcomed.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM

Greg Stephens. "Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures?"

By God, you could sing that if you had an air to it. I don't think the folk revival is quite as precious these days as it once was. But when I got into ethnic music in the early '70s, hardly anybody I knew was even remotely interested. It wasn't that they didn't enjoy listening to the stuff, it wasn't British and the folk revival was about celebrating British folk music. I wonder how many seeds those people sewed in the minds of future BNP leaders.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM

G. Stephens: "I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience."

The implications of this comment in relation to the core issues of this thread, remind me so much of the charming (and equally stubborn) innocence of The Shire concerning the dangers of Mordor, prior to the Shire's scourging by Saruman.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:57 PM

(Half of my last message went missing in the ether. What I actually said was)
Rifleman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music. I think if you look at my post, you will see that it is a main, indeed an obsessional interest of mine. I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience. I think it would make a great statement if places where folkies gather(eg the middle bar at the Anchor in Sidmouth) were a little bit more ethnically integrated, on occasion. Then BNP singingers turning up to infiltrate would get the point. In my own experience, wonderful evenings can happen if white liberal middle-class folkies invite Zimbabwean singers or Kurdish fiddlers to come down the pub and swap songs. I think this a practical and music-orientated way to make a political point and have a thoroughly good time while doing so.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

I'd make a broad guess that JC & FaF would promote such notions likewise in any campaign stratagies Greg. Oureach of sucj kind,would be especially applicable with immigrant folk musics. Most of whom, ironically, seem to do a rather better job of maintaining their cultural traditions within Britian, than the English in particular have been themselves.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

"The problem perhaps with such debates is what you could be debating isnt what they actually think nor stand for but a very much watered down (for public consumption) version of this, the holocaust denial, enforced sterilisation the more dangerous racist agenda will be kept underwraps."


I absolutely agree that this could happen ... if the anti fascist approach is to respond to the BNP's initiative.

On the other hand, if the Anti Fascist groups take the initiative and constantly ask these questions and demand evidence for the BNP's claims then that ensures that the right issues are kept in the spotlight.

The debate is not engaged in to be won in the eyes of its participants, but in the eyes of its observers.

Much as a prosecuting Lawyer does not argue to convince a defendant that he is wrong, but to convince a jury.

The Jury here is the public.

If the BNP are given opportunities over and over again to claim that anti fascists are undemocratic trouble makers it will seriously damage their campaign in the eyes of the majority of people watching from outside; the jury.

The anti fascist groups need to raise awareness of who the BNP really are and get the public interested.

Newspapers sell to the public, and they will print what they think will sell.

If the public are baying for answers at the BNP's heels the press will bay with them.

there is absolutely no room for 'passive' resistance. Resistance to the BNP must be proactive and pre-emptive.

It must also be effective - and shouting abuse or trying to ban them will not work, es[ecially now that they have equal political rights to all the other elected parties.

The effective response is to put them on the defensive.

Ask the difficult questions politely and clearly so they can be heard and understood with no ambiguity in a room full of hecklers.

Ask politely and clearly for evidence of their claims, stressing that without it you will be unable to verify them


Keep it simple, keep it calm and kick them off the moral highground.

Expose them for who they are.

learn their arguments - they all say the same thing - and you won't be rattled by their rhetoric.

Stick to the point - don't be distracted by attempts to change the subject.

Know where the exits are!!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

Crow Sister: I am sure you are right about strategies and so on, they are, or soon will be,in place. But things like "strategies", in my experience, often just lead to big concerts with self-congratulatory line-ups, statements to the press, grant applications etc etc. All very well. But I was proposing something that individuals should do, street by street, pub by pub, club by club, festival by festival. You know, each person sweeps outside the house, the street will be clean. Don't wait for the council to send a team with a lorry.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

"I was proposing something that individuals should do, street by street, pub by pub, club by club, festival by festival."

Sure Greg, I follow you. Though in relation to the idea of promoting such 'strategies' of outreach on a collective ground floor level, considering the general low level of current initiative in such undertakings (of which you speak), broader awareness raising arguably has to come before individual clubs, festivals etc. actually begin initiating such action by themselves.

I think awareness raising, including adopting approaches of the very same kind as you are describing, is indeed currently the prime purpose of FaF, thus I suspect we are essentially agreeing?

That all sounded far more complicated than it needed to ;-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

Well said Lox :

"The debate is not engaged in to be won in the eyes of its participants, but in the eyes of its observers.

Much as a prosecuting Lawyer does not argue to convince a defendant that he is wrong, but to convince a jury.

The Jury here is the public."

Much as I laughed at the egg throwing, it does seem more use in the end to allow the public at large to hear the rantings of these evil people. Only then will the "jury" be able to judge.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM

Joan said there would be a web site.
Any news of this yet?

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM

Well, we have a domain, and I understand that the website is under construction as we speak. These things take a bit of time! But it's on its way, I promise. I'll post news as soon as there is some.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Riflerman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music...

I was thinking anyhting do grandiose and pompous. All I WAS thinking about was actually

"maybe, just maybe, it's time for some people to take off the blinkers and have a look around!! A good start would be to join the Folk Against Fascism facebook group"

Did I mention "cultural diversity in traditional music" Nope!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM

Crow Sister

I think awareness raising, including adopting approaches of the very same kind as you are describing, is indeed currently the prime purpose of FaF

Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote.

From the Facebook group -

This group is being created to take a stand against the appropriation of folk culture by the BNP. They want to take our music. We will not let them.

The message I take is that we should play "our" music for the love of the music without fear of being accused of being right wing little Englanders. If we move away from it, we are just handing it over to the BNP without a fight.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

I suggest anyone here with a web site should say something about this. I've added to mine. This is not meant to be gratuitous self-promotion (I expect most of you know what we do anyway), but as an example of a way to help publicise FAF:
www.treewind.co.uk/mha
Comments for further improvement would be welcome.

I didn't link to the BNP's own site - not sure if that's wise or not.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Anahata, that's absolutely brilliant.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM

I provided links to both the myspace and facebook sites on a couple of my websites, that was done yesterday.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM

I'm not into either myspace or facebook, but this has my wholehearted support. Music, nor any other art form should NEVER be allowed to be used as a platform for the kind of evil distortions put about by filth like the BNP. I look forward to the website coming on line.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM

>These things take a bit of time!
LOL! 48 hours ... I come back from work to find that the FB group is now over 1000 strong in terms of membership. I call that rather impressive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:00 PM

The "cultural diversity" argument is a toughie. Trouble is, our own culture (morris dancing, folk dancing, singing folk songs)has been so much the butt of stupid media comments over the years and we have become so afraid of expressing pride in our own country that this is precisely where the BNP and other fascist groups think of taking a stand.
I want the opportunity to stand up proudly for England (as well as Wales, Scotland and Ireland) without anyone assuming I'm a jingoistic moron. And I've written songs about that and if I found the BNP had attempted to take them on board I would instantly find ways and means to take legal action to stop them.
At WOMEX last year I was appalled to find that the majority of "world music" from the UK sounded like music from other cultures, (because it was - sometimes from people whose heritage was from other cultures but sometimes from musicians who clearly wanted to be from elsewhere)and that there was very little recognition that the UK has its own indigenous cultures. Note the plural.

I think everyone should be proud of their own heritage and background, and that includes us. I don't feel the need to include stories from other cultures when I'm storytelling, especially when the majority of children in our schools don't get exposed to the local heritage at any stage - because we're all trying so hard to be "multicultural" and avoid bias.

So I'm firmly with Folk Against Fascism, very firmly against the BNP and all it stands for (not mad keen on UKIP either, and have never managed to be a Tory) and I don't see a conflict of interests if I stick with performing and studying stories, music, dance and song from these islands. Doesn't make me racist to want to promote my own cultural heritage.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:48 PM

Greg,
Have you taken a look at the line ups for various Off The Tracks Festivals, Castle Donington, Derbyshire over the years?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

My instinct is that the egg throwing was a set-up. During demonstrations of the Vietnam War in the US there were right-wing political operatives acting as rabble-rousers to incite violence.

A little history for some folkies here. The Left-wing movement of the US championed the
folk music collecting, archiving and the development of folklorists and folk song collectors. Pete Seeger spearheaded an approach to folk music which was ultimately the foundation for the commercial folk music revival in the US and abroad as well. Some would call that a political act. Although it involved some politics, it was more of a movement like what is being promoted here.

Actually, politics can't be separated from the arts any more than it can from any other expression or endeavor in life. Even the idea of anti-politics is a political statement.

The BNP is a dangerous right-wing organization that threatens real democracy. Like the
Operation Rescue movement in the US it could be a platform for violence. So far, it may not have crossed the line but it could easily become a so-called "terrorist" platform.

Folk Singer Against Fascism has venerable historical roots here in the US. We had People's Songs, Broadside Magazine, and People's Artists in New York. Paul Robeson was a champion of the political expression of anti-Fascism through song. Woody Guthrie was a songwriter who spent his life writing songs about anti-Fascism. Josh White, Leadbelly, Big Bill Broonzy and Richard Dyer-Benett supported left-wing causes in the early days to speak out against anti-Fascism. There is a strong connection with anti-Fascism in the roots of American folk music which was nurtured by the Left-wing in the Thirties and Forties and onward.

Like Operation Rescue, he BNP might be metaphorically in danger of "yelling fire in a crowded theater" which is an infringement of free speech.

More power to the FAF.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM

More power to the FAF.

And FAFing about could gain a whole new respectability!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

I look forward to visiting the Folk Against Fascism website. And I hope that that website will include educational essays such as Frank Hamilton's (Stringsinger's) 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM post. Hopefully, readers' comments could be posted in response to an essay, similar to what is done on a number of blogs such as this one.

Here's another suggestion for the content of the FaF website-like that above linked blog, comments/essays/articles, it could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM

Hey George - When did you become Yorgos?

Whatcher mean- You always was?

I have enough problems with your surname. How come you can't have a good English name like Polakow or Mistry or Li or Abedoye or... :-P

On a more serious note, I do agree with Greg. I have tried my best to get a good mix at Swinton but only been sucessful with Tuup (Ghania), Orleck Dance Troup (Ukraine), Boat Band (Stoke) and some Greek bloke who sings wonderful songs, about anything and everything, in English:-)

The trouble I find though is the difficulty getting good world music at the same sort of deal we do for everyone - Ie - The door and raffle with the occasional subsidy from meagre club funds. I know I have talked to Greg about this before and the trouble is that I realy do not know how to get the music deriving from other cultures into our club. I do hope and pray that eventualy we will get floor singers and 'jobbing' musicians from other traditions in our mix. As has happened in other aspects of life, food being the prime example, surely we will eventualy get all cultures represented in the 'folk scene' (whatever that is). Won't we? After all, I genuinely believe that there is a general acceptance of other cultures to our shores, with the primary execption of those of the BNP persuasion. It is what makes English culture so strange!

As to freedom of speech. Yes, well. As well as the aforementioned crying of fire in a crowded place we should also remember that freedom cannot and should not cross the laws of the land. If that freedom of speech is inciting racial hatred it is already illegal. Anyone who cannot see the difference between freedom of speech and restriction of crime deserves all they get.

Anyway, off to join FaF right now.

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:02 PM

And hopefully, there will be a Preview feature for comments-not that I would use it. LOL

Here's the corrected sentence from my post before this one:

"...like that above linked blog, [the policy of that site could be that] comments/essays/articles could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:05 PM

I find it a little sad that the minute I started talking about people being a little more welcoming to a spot of cultural diversity,we get comeback from people saying "What's wrong with sticking up for Brit folk?".As if they were opposites.Actually, the two are perfectly compatible. I referred to my own work in recording refugee/asylum seeker music in England. I don't expect many people to be familiar with what I do, but I can assure anyone that I have also been researching, publishing, promulgating,recording, teaching, performing and generally enthusing over indigenous local English music with considerable vigour since the 60's.And if you don't know my own music, you are probably familiar with people who have learnt tunes and songs off me. I love folk music. That's what I live and breathe.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM

Thank yopu Frank Hamilton.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: romany man
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM

a simple question the old "what is fascism" i could say i daily face racist remarks cos of me birth race,is that fascism?, I still cant find anywhere to graze my horses with tempory stables? yet people i share the present field with, (non gypsies) were granted grazing rights localy? is that fascism? when i go to my local shop, the staff wander about behind me but not others, is that it, yet how many of you have said the old, bloody pikey comment or bloody gypsies, how many of you have objected to sites being opened for us, perhaps thats it, how many of you would jump to defend your local romanies ? perhaps thats it, so i ask how many of you non romanies know the difference between romanies and non romanies, thats just one part. Who decides what is patriotic and what is fascist, anyone who can deny the holocaust is off thier bloody head,( but then so am i, and i got a certificate) how long will it be before the patriots are classed as fascists, sadly its a thin line in my opinion, what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism , a much greater number, cant stop it what can we do.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tyke
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

All You Fascists

I'm gonna tell you fascists
You may be surprised
The people in this world
Are getting organized
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose

Race hatred cannot stop us
This one thing we know
Your poll tax and Jim Crow
And greed has got to go
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose.

All of you fascists bound to lose:
I said, all of you fascists bound to lose:
Yes sir, all of you fascists bound to lose:
You're bound to lose! You fascists:
Bound to lose!

People of every color
Marching side to side
Marching 'cross these fields
Where a million fascists dies
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!

I'm going into this battle
And take my union gun
We'll end this world of slavery
Before this battle's won
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!


Woody Guthrie


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM

Romany man, all those incidents were cerainly prejudiced, probably racist, they may or may not have been fascist.
   fascism is a political belief in having absolute power to order society as the fascists think fit. Which is normally to do with state control ( certainly not right wing, economically)elimination of other voices, and extermination of those who don't contribute. The word facism comes from the fasces, a bundle of twigs and an axe which was the symbol of power, including punishment and death, of the Roman magistrtates.
facism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. If we were all of the same race, fascists would find other distinctions. Why? because inorder to gain absolute power they must invent an 'other' who is to be feared, whoo must be guarded against, which means the guardians must have full power. ( think Mc Carthy in the 50's and Bush's 'War on terror) This means, in the emergency state, civil liberties must be suspended, never to return.
Facism is an attack on us all, not just the Jews, blacks, communists, islamists who are taking the brunt at any one time.
Wishing you well , Romany Man, just don't call me Gorgoi.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:09 PM

romany man,

i have no problem at all with anyone who camps somewhere they shouldn't be as long as they have done no damage to the site and clean up after themselves.

i am sure that you have often been tarred by the same brush as new age travellers most groups of whom i have ever met or seen i have dispised as troublemakwers, thieves and litterers, who make no effort to look after the site they are on or respect the locals wherever they find themselves.

we have a batteredvan and a poorly second hand caravan and we can arrord the caravan club here in the u.k, so why can't travellers who have big posh vans and posh 4x4 that pull them.

whenever we have stayed off site we have always made sure we spoke to the locals with respect and left no trace that we were ever there,as i am sure you do.

sorry for ranting at you when i know that it is not the romanys' fault but i get very angry at just the mention of the new age types.

typical example,, stainsby folk festival, it is only on a small feild and there are bins everywhere. in the mornings you will see o laod of glass bottles along with the metal lids right beside the bins....this is a cow field where the cows have been know to get the bottle tops stuck in their feet, very environmentlyfrindly i am sure.


oops i did it again i shall go before i get shot.. lol

take care romany man and be careful it is a nasty world we live in   x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:38 PM

greg stephens

I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues.

I'm sorry, Greg, but, speaking for myself, the prime motivation for being involved in a folk club is the music. The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England. This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one. I am more than happy to share my enthusiasm with anyone and everyone, regardless of race, colour or creed.

I do what I can to oppose racism to the point that I have been concerned for my own physical well-being (look through my Mudcat postings) but that is not why I commit my time to helping to run a folk club.

Are you seriously suggesting that folk club organisers should promote music that they don't find interesting just to cock a snook at the BNP?

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM

I am amazed at the response FAF has received in so brief a time. I have been guilty of getting into some fights with people from the trad folk scene in England. My apologies. Many people have joined ('become friends' on the Myspace site that FAF has). I wish to applaud people like Bryan, Ruth A and George P (who it seems wishes to be called yoghurt for some strange reason) and that takes courage. I posted the following on my own MySpace page:

"To my friends on Myspace:

There is a very important Myspace site I hope you will consider joining. Its name is

Folk Against Fascism

In the UK, there is a very dangerous group of people called the British Nationalist Party. They sleep with the likes of the KKK, Aryan Nations and other hate groups. Please consider giving them your support. The garbage hasn't gone away: it's still out there, and now it's getting elected based on lies, distortions of truth and intimidation. WE are stronger than they are--together. Please, let's show them that.

Bruce"

I hope it helps. I have always admired people with guts, and you folks have plenty of that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM

Irene (Greek for 'peace'), my tub runneth over. I'll raise a pint to you (a drinking Yorgo). Seriously, thanks and well done.
My name will be reinstated in a few days, after the kerfuffle over MBSGeorge has died down.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:20 PM

"....fascism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. "(Tug the Cox)

Fascism is "Dictatorsh[p of the Capitalists" according to GB Shaw (1922).

Put these two quotes together and a few more things emerge.

Fascism is a phenomenon of Capitalism - not something on its own. It enables Capitalism to operate without the 'trappings' of Democracy, Rights at Work, the Right to Strike, Rights to Protest - things that were RELUCTANTLY permitted to citizens and workers progressively over 150 or so years.

And we all know Western Capitalism is in deep trouble right now. Though the scapegoats picked on by a given Fascist movement may be racian ones, they may not be and one should be particularly aware that a Fascist partiy of today may spotlight its multi ethnic, and socially Liberal spectrum of supporters.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM

At this time Folk Against Fascism's Facebook page has 1,116 friends while the Folk Against Fascism MySpace page has 168 friends.

This may reflect the fact that Facebook is more popular than MySpace, at least according to this article:

Facebook Overtakes MySpace as Most Popular Social Networking Site
BY LEE BAINS — JAN 27TH 2009 AT 3:35PM

"Undergoing a growth spurt of 127-percent over the course of 2008, Facebook finally overtook social networking giant MySpace by drawing 222 million users to Facebook.com in December. Facebook's first month to beat out MySpace was last April.

Not limited to the social networking arena, Facebook's success is impressive even in the most general category; Facebook.com registered as the Internet's seventh most popular destination in December, trailing only Web giants Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL, Wikipedia and eBay."

http://www.switched.com/2009/01/27/facebook-overtakes-myspace-as-most-popular-social-networking-sit/

**

It should be noted that the Folk Against Fascism (FaF) Facebook page was launched one day before the FaF MySpace page. Maybe one of the reason why so many more folks signed on to the Facebook page rather than the MySpace page is that some people have both a Facebook and a MySpace page. Perhaps their reasoning is that if they sign up with one of these FaF pages, they don't have to sign up for the other. Or maybe the truth of the matter is that there really are more folk social networking though Facebook than through MySpace.

Personally, I like the aesthetics at MySpace better (I'm referring to the color backgrounds, the music sound clips, and the different types of friend photos -the logos, the moving pictures and more). Actually, I don't really use my MySpace page for social networking. MySpace seems to me to be a modern version of the custom of exchanging business cards. I launched my MySpace page to promote my website and to feature some creative videos of children that I find on YouTube. Because I like learning about different types of music and cultures, I purposely search for interesting friends throughout the world. And I admit that I often send friend invites to people and groups mostly based on their colorful, eye catching member photos. I enjoy visiting those friends pages, checking out their music, and learning about their cultures. MySpace is a cultural experience for me.

This has little to do with the topic of the thread except to say that I decided not to think of there being any competition between the number of people who sign up as friends with FaF Facebook and FaF MySpace. Maybe that's because if there were a contest, Facebook would win which means "my side" would lose. But I know that's not the point. It's just that this subject is so heavy duty, that my spirit wants to find some way to lighten up. And this was one way I thought about doing so-until I saw that MySpace was bound to lose. Now I'm pushing the "We're all in this together" slogan. That's why-with all due apologies to Rodney King-I ask "Can Facebook friends and Myspace friends get along?"

And I answer "When it comes to Folks Against Fascism-Absolutely!"

;o)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM

I am humbled by your remark, Yorgos. Best wishes to you.

Irene

(I don't mind the name, but I ain't getting the operation to go with it.)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:32 AM

The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England.

I agree entirely, Bryan, I have a particular fondness for English and Scottish Dance music in particular but would pose this question. When did it become English or Scottish and what makes it so? When I listen to some of the dance tunes are there distinct east European influences or did English music influence that of Romania or Hungary? Some of the tunes of the Scottish small pipes sound earily like those played by Bretons in France. Now we have influences from further east and west in pop, classical and folk so is what I am listening to really English anyway? I would give an overwhelming YES - Just as Chicken Tika Masala, French wines and, unfortunately, MacDonalds burgers are part of English cuisine.

Anyroads - back to the point. As club organisers we should not be just promoting music that we find interesting, but that that would interest a wider audience maybe? I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook. But if we can help derail the BNP while booking acts representing ALL cultures of these isles then it is an added bonus:-)

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote."

Fair enough Snail, rereading my posts, I was jumping the gun somewhat there. Possibly based on thoughts drawn from prior threads on surrounding issues, and the fact that JC has a foot in a few camps which, I would guess, ideally means that there doesn't have to be any either/or approaches. For my own part, I'd guess that all options of awareness raising and encouraging inclusivity are possibilities. At least I would hope so.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:04 AM

Personally, I don't think anyone should book anyhting except really good music.

Take this lot - they make really good music:

Dogan and the Deerhunters


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM

I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook.
-David el Gnomo


"Cock a snook?"

Does that mean what I think it means?



Never mind. I don't really need to know.


But on second thought...??


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:43 AM

Azizi

To cock a snook means to show derision. Origin debatable!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:44 AM

plenty of people are joining, there were 6 members when i joined, now theres over 1000!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:48 AM

On a serious note, it occurs to me that it's usually acceptable for people who know each other well to engage in light hearted play on words about the other person's non-standard name and other cultural things (such as some posts on this thread that Bruce [Peace] and David el Gnomo 's wrote that refer to George [Yorgos Papavgeris]'s name.*

But that same play on words would likely not be acceptable among people who don't know each other well.

I mention this because I think that one of the goals of the Folk Against Fascism website, Facebook page, and MySpace page would be to foster greater understanding among people of different backgrounds. Which doesn't mean that I think there should be a "social etiquette among people of different backgrounds" page. But some features that help populations of people know each other better may do a lot to reduce the pull of fascism.

* I mentioned Bruce's name "Peace" because people who might visit this thread from Internet search engines might not know who the heck "Bruce" is. And I'm presuming that George didn't take any offense to Bruce's and Dave's remarks because I (kinda) know them through their postings on Mudcat. t also seems to me that George's 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM shows that he accepted these play on words about his name in the spirit that they were given. However, the point I'm trying to make is that people who don't know each other can take offense and be offensive when joking about different personal names and about words from other languages.

Also I want to say that I think that Bruce's 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM comment and David el Gnomo 's 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM and any comment about George's name and the Greek word for "Peace" (Irene) were probably posted to add some lightheartedness to a very serious thread as was the intent of my 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM post).

I think these serious, emotionally gut wrenching discussions need a careful, sensitive light touch some times- or speaking for myself-I know that I need a careful, light touch sometime when I read these "heavy duty" threads. (Why did that phrasing about careful, sensitive touch cause my mind to go someplace else? Never mind that.)

:o)

Moving right along, thanks Bruce, and George, and Dave and any other play on word-er that i failed to mention.

Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM

Thanks, MartinRyan.

That meaning of "To cock a snook" is somewhat disappointing. But it is what it is.

;o)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:17 AM

I have a particular fondness

Particuular, not exclusive. My own repertoire includes Irish, Scottish, French, Scandinavian and Italian tunes; because I like them.

This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one.

OK?

Thanks for the link Ruth. Dogan has played at the club several times in Too Many Strings and as a duo with Matt Quinn. He is on record as saying something like "I think British traditional music is wonderful and I want everybody to know about it. If it takes a Turk to tell them, so be it."

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM

The issues ultimately raised by this thread are going to be numerous, but in forging any approaches to begin to attempt to counter what has been ocurring regards the appropriation of British folk music and customs, I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread?

For example: One thing that strikes me from memory, was a story (I can't recall the poster) discussing a bunch of skinheads at a folk gathering rather enthusiastically singing songs containing the 'N' word.

Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?

And a further thing which immediately comes to mind, is of course the somewhat exclusively middle-England nature of attendees of folk clubs. Not a criticism of the British folk scene, merely a reference to prior discussions.

I'm sure there are other things which make British folk highly attractive as a tool for nationalist and fascist propaganda, I just wanted to throw open discussion about what they might be?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:34 AM

I think the main thing is that they're national.


But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture.

It's all about appropriating these things seen as primarily English, and making them a part of their very narrow and exclusive definition of identity.

I would hate to think of folk culture, 30 years from now, suffering under the taint of racism in the way that football still does, because we weren't vigilant enough until it was too late.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:38 AM

Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above:

"targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

should read

"targeting something that is PERCEIVED as much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

Referring to morris, maypole, village greens etc.

And this is all about the perceptions of the wider public, not what we as folkies may or may not feel is true.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM

Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions.

About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users.

Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:59 AM

"Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above: "

Phew, you had me reaching for the nearest chicken, there. LOL!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM

"But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

Interesting point.

Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes.

Lets remember that the number of BNP voters did not increase, so perhaps we can deduce that the footbal stadium campaign has been unsuccesful.

Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets, maybe the campaign has followed them into the pubs - and is just giving itself a soundtrack and inventing an new found identity with a new found air of respectability ...

... Great to see that when it matters, the overwhelming majority of Brits are disgusted at the idea of Griffin in office.

He won't last more than 1 term.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

"Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?"

I find the BNP fascination with 'British culture' alarming because they are echoing nazi ideology in a way that even the National Front never did. The nazis believed that national culture was a product of genetic determination, and it was for this reason that they embraced German folklore. to them, it was pure and it was Aryan and, once cleansed of degenerate influences, it was both symbol and affirmation of Aryan superiority. The product of the master race, no less.

I think the BNP's assertion of British folklore (and various other symbols of 'Britishness') shows that they are thinking along similar lines. I think they are proposing a Britain purged of all alien influences. I think they are planning a programme of ethnic cleansing, the intensity of which has not been seen since the days of the holocaust.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM

Expanding this list outside of Britain, Folk singers sang songs during the civil rights movement in the USA.

It might be a good idea to include such a listing on the FaceBook/MySpace pages or at least on the upcoming Folk Against Fascism website.

What else can be added to this list?


Mikis Theodorakis (and a lot of other Greek musicians) opposing the Greek colonels

Victor Jara, Inti-Illimani and a whole bunch of other Chilean musicians opposing Pinochet

Zulfu Livaneli, Selda Bagcan, Melike Demirag and a whole bunch of other Turkish folkies opposing fascism around the time of the 1980 coup

You'd be hard put to find a country with a significant fascist movement that didn't have folk musicians in the front line fighting it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:22 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM

Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions.

About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users.

Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ."
I agree with this sentiment,however it is not accurate,the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands[scotland ,england ireland wales]polkas originated in middle europe[butIrish polkas have evolved to something different.]
yes ,correct about Polkas and mazurkas,but not other dances.
still the most important thing is not to be concerned about origins ,but to enjoy the dancing.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM

I just looked at Anahata's site, that link page is just right.

I'd add something very similar to mine, but a question. My involvement is mostly with Scottish music, and I haven't seen any sign of the BNP trying to exploit that. (Near-fascist Scottish organizations like Siol nan Gaidheal have been trying for years and got nowhere in particular - but the BNP would have to take them on before trying to move in on the Scottish folk scene). Anyone know what they're doing up here?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM

>i>I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread?
-Crow Sister, 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM

I find your comments to be very interesting, Crow Sister and believe that it is important to know what attracts the BNP to folk. And it seems to me that a corollary question is "Should every thing that is considered to be traditional British culture or which has been grafted onto traditional British culture be supported and efforts made to retain those things? I'm specifically talking about the songs with the "N" word (which certainly wouldn't be publicly sung nowadays in my country, the USA)? But I'm certain that there are other perhaps more controversial customs that could (should?) also be considered in that category of indices of traditional British culture that could be reviewed in this regard.

**

I aslo find romany man's 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM entire post interesting. But in particular I'd like to to focus on this point he raised "what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism..."

(I'm wondering if he meant) "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism)

But the point that I want to make is that it seems to me that Folk Against Fascism should be clear on and should clearly articulate what it (we) are in favor of. I think our efforts would be weakened if we are only seen as being against something-and that "something" is a political system that a lot of "folks" (with "folk" here meaning people) can't easily define. Furthermore, it seems to me that we are missing a wider audience and membership/supporters if the "folk" in "Folk Against Fascism" is only narrowly defined as "folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers)".

To echo what Peace said in one of his posts to this thread, I'm not folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers). But I am a folk (a person). I understand that FaF focuses on Britain and the British hate group, the BNP. But I'd like to think that people from outside of Britain with our "own" hate groups and hate crimes have some role in the FaF-and maybe we are sometimes the gadfly that pushes you to widen your focus and consider the wider world of racism/hate/fascism.

I guess I should have said that "maybe my role is a gadfly". But gadflies can be lovable sometime.

:o)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM

Ruth/lox,
It is quite true that in the seventies the NF sought to recruit members from football supporters since "they would welcome robust young men into their ranks". However it must be stressed that over the ensuing years the football clubs themselves have worked very hard to combat the stigma, especially the violence and racism, which attached its self to the game.Most clubs that I know of have a definite policy against racisim(Kick Out Racism) and any form of racist chanting is punishable by expulsion from the ground and membership revoked. A lot of clubs openly declare this on their tickets.
"Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets". I saw my team, Nottingham Forest, on television twice last season so I would suggest that since football is not the sole property of the big four Premiership sides that the real fans still go to the grounds (and if being middle class means being continually on the bones of ones arse then that must be my status; I'll remember that when I clock in at the factory in the morning)
It was very encouraging to see the anti - BNP leaflets being haded out at our last home match v Southampton.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM

Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes.

As a season ticket holder at Sheffield's finest football club (I refer to United of course) I am very aware of the efforts my club has made to discourage racism (especially chanting) and it is now totally unaceptable at Bramall Lane to make references to the colour of a player's skin.

So we don't hear it. This didn't arise by accident but by extremely hard work by FURD (Football Unites, Racism Divides). http://www.furd.org/ will show you some of their work.

It has been a very successful organisation.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM

Azizi:
Yes, of course we're all against fascism, but the reason why the folk music community in particular is upset is because the BNP have been exploiting British Folk music (in particular its "Britishness") as an emblem of nationalism and selling compilations of their recordings to raise funds. Now folk musicians and singers are in danger of being tarred with the same racist brush, so it is very much a fight "against" the BNP because we are under attack. Imagine if you were a singer (maybe you are) and you found your music was being sold to raise funds for a racist organisation...

As for "Folk against Fascism" vs. "Folk Against Racism", it's a more alliterative and hence memorable name, and it is relevant to the BNP. For me it's also a plus point that it potentially covers some of the invasions of personal privacy and freedom perpetrated by the existing government, with its talk of ID cards and having all our internet activity monitored.

Perhaps we could have called it "folk for freedom" but I don't think anyone would take any notice if we did...

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:30 AM

The whole Kick Racism Out (of football) has been succesful in league football. I can confirm that racist chants etc are also now never heard at Sincil Bank (Lincoln City).

I haven't been to an England game for more than 10 years but the last one I was at was scary. Lots of anti-Irish chants.

At Lincoln, the 3 of us who turn up are now impeccably behaved. (I always was, it was the other 2). Thought I better make this joke before someone else did.



I think the issues were different for football in that it was kicking out people/ behaviours who had already infiltrated the game...... I don't perceive that the BNP has a strong grip of Folk Music yet. It's therefore looking at how to prevent it (or at least put out the ember before the fire catches) rather than kick it out.

Might be something we can learn from the football experience though.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:51 AM

Fascism ,is[imo] easily defined,it involves IN PRACTICAL TERMS [as it has been practised,by Mussolini and Hitler] the persecution of people because of their race colour and creed,so one of its principles as it has been practised is racism.
yes ,this includes Mussolini.
Mussolini in his earlier years appeared not be anti semitic,but in his later years changed his policy,and for whatever reasons used racism to maintain himself in power.
however, Folk against Racism,might have been a better title,just in case some pedant,comes along and argues that Franco[Fascist]or Duffy[Blueshirt] was not racist.
However the situation is further complicated,Franco was supported by other fascist /nazis states.,as he accepted their support,does it not follow that he accepted their racist attitudes?
anyway well done,to all the people who have helped set up folk against fascism.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM

Correction-
In my 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM post I wondered if romany man meant " "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is not against fascism".

**

Also, I wasn't suggesting that the "Folk Against Fascism" name be "Folk Against Racism". My point was (is) that the group should be clear what we are for. I would assume that some things are core, but that every FaF friend (member) may not agree with other things that are part of British traditional folk culture that other friends (members) list that they are in favor of.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:14 AM

Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally

was answered by

the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands

Well yes, but that's a complete non sequitur! Your point is?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

"fascism" is now little more than a generalised term of abuse. It's original sense was essentially right-wing, ultra-nationalist, corporatist, authoritarian governance. Unsurprisingly, racism was often part of the package, in practice. (It's not stretching things too much to regard Franco's attitude to the Catalans as essentially racist, BTW). On the other hand, authoritarian left-wing states are just as capable of being racist (complete your own list...). So let's not confuse the two.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

For myself, I think the term is appropriate, as the issues implied go beyond racism alone.

And this from Wiki makes the direct relationship between the BNP & fascism more clear: "The current use of the name British National Party is its fourth appearance in British politics. The original BNP emerged during World War II when a handful of former members of the British Union of Fascists took on the name."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

my point is:that most ,countrydances/ceilidhs that people dance to in England ,contain all these dances and some of them are from the England Ireland Scotland Wales .
secondly,that the origins of the dances should not be important when dancing,people, should be dancing for pleasure.
that is why I dont care a toss, when I am dancing a polka [that it comes from middle europe].
but of course it might concern BNP MEMBERS ,presumably they think its ok to dance hornpipes but not polkas,how ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

In a Venn Diagram, Fascism and racism can intersect but not always.

Any authoritarian governance is probably associated with some form of racism.
It doesn't matter what you label it.

As I understand the BNP, it is an authoritarian "my way or the highway" group and
must as a result maintain a certain prejudice and xenophobia.

Fascism is alive and well here in the US. It is not a stated official policy of the government but corporate takeover of our political system is evident. For this reason, ample criticism
has to be expressed by Americans who take our Bill of Rights and Constitution seriously.
We have to deplore any group that favors a fascistic point of view including the BNP.
They should not be morally defended in any way.

Free speech is their right as long as it doesn't cross the line. My experience with fascistic right-wing groups is that they invariably cross the line into violence. At this point as far as I'm concerned, this abrogates their right to free speech.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:28 AM

If you want to see what a British fascist looked like go to "google images" and type in the name of the founding leader of the British National Party,John Tyndall. You can see him there dressed in full nazi uniform posing in front of a swastika flag while a photograph of Adolph Hitler looks down from above.

His successor ,Nick Griffin,can also be seen on google images.He is there in front of a National Front banner wearing his white power Tshirt.He looks more porky these days.

When a BNP electioneering squad were out in force in my home town a few weeks ago they were all dressed up in their shiny suits.They really didn't like it when photocopies of Tyndall in his nazi getup were produced. After being " megaphoned " for an hour by anti fascists they obviously sent for reinforcements because a group of boneheads came waddling down the street.One was covered in enormous swastika tattoos   including one on top of his shaven head. Scary! He was obviously not used in any of the BNP publicity material.

Its not easy but they do have to confronted about their nazi past and their nazi present.
ifor


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

Been thinking about this.....

""given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen"

I'll wait and see how far some people are willing to go with this issue.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:46 AM

I have always considered myself "non political" I don't "do" politics, but by God I care about my fellow man. The whole idea of the BNP appalls me and in fact scares me. I particularly dislike the idea of appropriating the music I love and have worked hard for all my adult life. This is why I joined FAF, triggered by the wayward thinking of a previous friend.
I hope we get a coherent mission statement organised for the website. Fo my pen'orth it's deeper than Racism and probably deeper than the BNP although they must be the main target for the immediate future.
Good luck to FAF and all who Faff around within.

Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:56 AM

Speaking of crossing the line into violence, a long-time racist anti-semite attacked the National Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. yesterday killing a security guard before being shot himself. Security guards at that museum are trained to be always on high alert because it is one of the most threatened institutions in America, a sad fact indeed. Otherwise he would have killed many more innocents. The MSNBC story reports that this man was a frequent attendee of American Friends of the British National Party rallies.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

"I'll wait and see how far some people are willing to go with this issue. "

Wait before you do what? Support it? Oppose it? Sitting on the fence can be a pain in the arse :)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

"Wait before you do what? Support it? Oppose it? Sitting on the fence can be a pain in the arse"

that's the wonderful thing about democracy, you do what you want

Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM

Rifleman, is there anything in particular, which makes you feel that you wish to stand back? I think like me, TheLeveller simply found your statement confusing. I didn't understand whatever point it was that you were making, or what exactly you'd been thinking about.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM

Catching up, belatedly as ever ...I don't see any kind of "either/or" about people and their preferences for music from different cultures and their own. However, as this thread is concerned with the attack on "British" folk music (perhaps this should be "English") via the attentions of the BNP, and as English folk music and dance have been under various forms of attack by the media over more years than I want to think about (mostly humour, mostly harmless, admittedly, but not helpful), and as it is often more difficult to attract grant funding for projects to do with English folk culture than for music and dance from other cultural backgrounds ... in short, as in this context English folk music is very much the minority interest and one of the few places it happens is in folk clubs my point was that I don't want accusations of nationalism, fascism, jingoism and racism to attach to folk clubs that don't book other varieties of world music as a result of their booking policy.

The cultural diversity question, applied to modern Britain, is indeed complex and full of contradictory potholes, to mix my metaphors and images. All I'm saying is that everyone is entitled to be proud of their own heritage, and that includes English folk enthusiasts and performers. No "either/or" involved. And when it comes to the old chestnut about how we're all essentially mixed ethnicities anyway over here - actually, not necessarily. In my family history the biggest mix was between Yorkshire and Oxfordshire, with a sprinkling of Devon, back at least as far as 1700. And most of them, I'm very proud to say, agricultural labourers or aspiring white collar workers rather than titled aristocrats.

And none of this makes me a white supremacist, a racist or a follower of the BNP. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I do insist that my cultural heritage is equal to anyone else's. I am rather tired of feeling apologetic about being English - and unable to make a statement about this without appearing to be a moronic nationalist.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

"Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is."

Well, that's something we agree on.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

"Rifleman, is there anything in particular, which makes you feel that you wish to stand back?"

"Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is."
I'm niot actually sitting on the fence, but I do believe I'll do things my way in my time.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM

Anne:

ENGLAND, HALF-ENGLISH

Words & Music : Billy Bragg

My mother was half-English
And I'm half-English too
I'm a great big bundle of culture
Tied up in the red, white and blue
I'm a fine example of your Essex Man
And I'm well familiar with the Hindustan
'Cos my neighbours are half-English
And I'm half-English too

My breakfast was half-English
And so am I you know
I had a plate of Marmite soldiers
Washed down with a cappuccino
And I have a veggie curry about once a week
The next day I fry it up as 'Bubble 'N' Squeak'
'Cos my appetite's half-English
And I'm half-English too

Dance with me
To this very English melody
From Morris dancing to Morrissey
All that stuff came from across the sea

Britannia, she's half-English
She speaks Latin at home
St. George was born in the Lebanon
How he got here I don't know
And those three lions on your shirt
They never sprang from England's dirt
Them lion's are half-English
And I'm half-English too

Le-li Umma le-li-ya
le-li Umma le-li-ya
Le-li Umma le-li-ya
bledi g'desh akh! le-li-ya

Oh my country
Oh my country
Oh my country
What a beautiful country you are


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

Folk = Volk = people = ALL people regardless of whether we are "folk musicians" or what evers. "Folk" does not either denote nor connote someone wrapped up in the "folk scene." The music of the folk (people) of any part of the world has always included protest music, music telling about life as it is/was. Was that not the original purpose? Wandering minstrels carrying the news from hamlet to hamlet? And now - the internet carries the message around the world in seconds!!

I see the Brits, or is it just the English, sticking closely to only music/dance that is "traditional". I see the US and Canadian folk sorts, festivals, what have you, sticking to "trad" music and contemporary "folk" and if any dancing at all - square, contra, or Morris.

Would it be too broadening for the dance of the folk of other lands to be included? I love our folk music and musicians, prefer the more contemporary to the hard-core trad. But I live to dance and my preferred dance is the dances of the people - international folk dance - Greek, Serbian, etc. I feel in touch with those who have danced these for hundreds of years, with their music and their spirit.

Perhaps broadening our own horizons would help us, and others, to broaden theirs? Lest our world be defined by the perimeter of our halo? (No offense meant to anyone.)

In any case, it is good to see folks standing up to be counted. Let us not sit down until we have rocked the boat.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM

a very good post from Ann Lister.
it is important that we do not allow english folk music to be hijacked by the BNP.
In my opinion the answer is for folk club organisers to carry on with exactly the booking policies,that they feel is right for their club.
some folk clubs promote English traditional music,some folkclubs promote contemporary songwriters ,some clubs promote both,some clubs promote blues.,long may that continue.
English,Scottish , Welsh, Irish folk music needs to be promoted.,as does other national folk music.
if a promoter wishes to run a club that is exclusively folk or roots music from another country,that is good.
or if he /she wishes to start integrating folk music from other areas in to the musical programme,that is his/her choice.,the organiser is taking a gamble,and might be well advised to introduce,these changes gradually,or to seek the opinions of club regulars first,alternatively there might be a lot of new faces,who wish to hear a more international flavour of music.
If he/ she does not want to do this it does not make the organiser a racist.,any more than would be the case,if it was an Indian person running an exclusively Indian folk music club in England ,India or anywhere else.
But The reason for running a Folk/Roots club,should be,because the organiser enjoys the music and wishes to promote it.
imo ,it seems incorrect for organisers to suddenly change their booking policies because of a fear that English folk music is being hijacked by the BNP,or because they think it might be a useful way of countering the BNP.
the best way[imo] to counter the BNP is to defeat their arguments intellectually ,MBS GEORGE has not yet replied to the many posts,which might suggest that she knows that her points of view would be made to look exactly what they are,intellectually bankrupt.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM

A guy on Question time (BBC1 UK) just now admitted to voting BNP. When questioned why he replied from a written list with all the usual BNP lines. When pushed he had to admit it was to "put two fingers up to the three main parties".

I do believe that is why they got in, thankfully not because people believe in their aims. This is not a call to apathy but rather the reverse, we should be engaging the BNP voters in proper dialogue and expose the truth of the BNP.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM

I am slow on the uptake about political issues at times as can be demonstrated in various threads on the 'cat but I do eventualy cotton on:-)

The more I think about this issue the more important I realise it is. If we let the BNP have their way we will loose a lot of what we take for granted. Imagine for one minute that we allow them to use Folk music and ritual dance in the way they want we will get the situation that the Folk club and Morris team will move from the slightly comedic butt of media jokes to an art form associated with this hateful organisation. Anyone involved will become tarred with the same brush and I, for one, will not sit back and let that happen.

I urge anyone and everyone involved in traditional English music and dance to ensure that we fight the incidious invasion of our culture. If that means actively going onto the streets and making sure that everyone, from all cultures represented in the UK, are not only welcome in but can make a real difference to our traditions then that is what we should be doing.

I'm on a mission...

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM

I cross posted with Dick -

some folk clubs promote English traditional music

Yes, we do indeed. But maybe we should be widening the definition of traditional English music? England has been multi-national for hundreds of years and the traditions that immigrants brought with them are now as much a part of traditional English life as Morris dance! Like I said earlier, Chicken Tikka Masalla and Balti are now part of traditional English food. Surely we can do the same with music.

Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same.

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:35 PM

I for one don't intend to be swayed by the BNP to change my preference for Britsh music. Luckily I think we have already established that that does not make me a racist.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:42 PM

Thanks to Anne Lister and Captain Birdseye. Spot on. Saved me a lot of typing.

There are a wide variety of folk clubs and folk dance organisations. We don't all have to do it all.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:12 PM

"I do believe that is why they got in, thankfully not because people believe in their aims." (Miskin Man)

On BBC TV tonight I think it was Dianne Abbot MP who said the BNP got in through large numbers of working class voters being disillusioned with New Labour (where the New Labour's former middle class voters have gone to the Greens).

As Miskin Man mentions, it's not generally that these working class voters are racist. Quite apart from the "two fingers to the three main parties" factor, it is that New Labour has left a vacuum in areas of huge working class concerns such as privatisation, feeding the Bankers instead of saving manufacturing jobs - things that Old (Peoples') Labour would have (one would hope) adressed.

Where the Red and Green Left hasn't beeen active, thousands are only hearing one party saying what they want to hear on those traditional Labour issues.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:22 PM

IAN, you are quite right when you say there is a gap in the market, so to speak, that is just what they want the brits to think . that the BNP are for the ordiary people, if i didn't know them better i might have been persuaded, i know the truth about them and MOST of their policies still SOUND good, it is no wonder then that the less inclined are completely taken in.

as for what folk clubs should do about this.....abSOLUTELY NOTHING.. keep doing what you are doing, you know what your' punters like and when they want something abit different,becuase they tell you and discuss it.
we should not let the threat of the BNP change how and why we do the things we love.

take care all

i can't wait to get my FaF t shirt and wear it with pride x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:54 PM

DeG: "Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same."

OF course. And has been for centuries. The flamenco evolved from the whirling dervish. I see the steps of all contemporary dances in ancient folk dances. Musicians are certainly affected by the music around them. Just a different sort of evolution. To be aware is to begin to understand our connectedness. We do not need to lose by it. We gain with awareness and still can maintain the integrity of the traditional - all the better by our awareness. Look at very old trad music and see if there is not an influence from the Crusades in there at times???

The fascists cannot take anything from us unless we allow it, give up our power, fail in our vigilance.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:05 AM

I am reposting this comment from a current thread here because I believe it is pertinent this discussion:

Subject: RE: 11 Hausa songs banned in Kano, Nigeria
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:01 AM

If you do not care for the loss of freedom that other creative people are experiences, you should at least realize that you are laughing and sneering at information such at this at your on peril. What is occurring in this Islamic province of the multi-religious nation of Nigeria, is a sign of what could occur in other nations if people are not pro-active and vigilant. For instance, were a fascist government headed by the BNP ever to achieve real power in Britain or other parts of the United Kingdom, they would target song composers, musicians, film makers, vocalists, actors and other creative people just as is now occurring in that one particular area of Nigeria.

This excerpt of that 2008 "Nigerian Writers, Film-makers Defy Censors"
article that Guest Felipa alerted us to should serve as a warning of things to come:

"Kano State government officials have burned books they say promote immorality...

The imprisonment clause has been put into effect several times. Besides Adam Zango, who was imprisoned in September 2007, pioneering Hausa director and former Kano State gubernatorial candidate Hamisu Lamido Iyan Tama was jailed after copies of his film Tsintsiya were impounded from a video shop in Kano in May 2008. He was accused of not registering his company Iyan Tama Multimedia with the censorship board.

(A court case reveals that the company had, in fact, registered and paid the required fees.) Ironically, the director was arrested the day of his return from the Zuma Film Festival in Abuja where Tsintsiya had won an award for Best Film on Social Issue.

The new censorship regime has had the effect of suppressing Hausa filmmaking in Kano, Northern Nigeria's largest city. The exact size of the industry is hard to determine, but a 2002 study by the national censors board counted 133 Hausa films produced between January and August of that year, making the Hausa film industry second in size only to Yoruba.

Although filmmakers are still doing post-production in Kano, locations have been moved to neighboring states, the majority now being shot in neighbouring Kaduna State. Filmmakers bypass the Kano State Censors Board by marking "Not for sale in Kano" on their films and selling them in other states.

Following the exodus of the Hausa film-making scene from Kano State, Malam Rabo, the director general of the censors board, turned his attention to the writers in the state...

The suppression of creativity in Nigeria is hardly a new phenomenon. Writers have been imprisoned and even executed like novelist and activist Ken Saro-Wiwa. However, the popular imagination combined with the subversive possibilities of such new technologies point to the impossibility of the task undertaken by the Censorship Board.

Filmmakers travel out of state to film and bring the digital tapes back in to edit, taking them back out of state to market. Writers, kept from publishing articles in local newspapers, repeat sentiments on blogs and pass digital photos of correspondence with the censors via email listserves.

Bus drivers plaster the windows of their ramshackle vehicles with stickers of "porn-star" Hiyana. Young people cite watching movies as inspiration for using their phones to record conversations with corrupt lecturers and authority figures who they then expose as hypocrites.

In the Clarendon lectures given at Oxford University in 1996, formerly imprisoned Kenyan novelist Ngugi wa Thiong'o theorised that whereas the state seeks to silence alternate stories, "art tries to restore voices to the land. It tries to give voice back to the silenced". In Northern Nigeria , despite state-sponsored bans, book burnings, and imprisonments, it is becoming difficult to silence those voices in the first place."

http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=43857


-snip-

We Mudcatters should be standing in solidarity with the creative people in that Northern province of Nigeria instead of making stupid jokes about them. Isn't that what movements such as Folk Against Fascism is all about? Or is the concern about creativity being potentially stifled and actually stifled only there when it comes to White people?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:13 AM

Correction to my first sentence of that repost:

"If you do not care for the loss of freedom that other creative people are experiencing, you should at least realize that you are laughing and sneering at information such at this at your own peril."

**

Here is an additional excerpt from that article about censorship in the Islamic province of in the northern part of Nigeria, West Africa:


"The censors board in Nigeria's northern Kano State was instituted in 2001 after the controversial implementation of Islamic shari'a law in Kano State. Film-making was at first banned outright, but the filmmakers' association of Northern Nigeria (MOPPAN) suggested a "review" board as a compromise measure, which allowed the industry to continue, though with certain restrictions on language, dress and "close dancing between men and women." (Five of the ten laws were specifically related to women's clothing or interaction with men.)...

he imprisonment clause has been put into effect several times. Besides Adam Zango, who was imprisoned in September 2007, pioneering Hausa director and former Kano State gubernatorial candidate Hamisu Lamido Iyan Tama was jailed after copies of his film Tsintsiya were impounded from a video shop in Kano in May 2008. He was accused of not registering his company Iyan Tama Multimedia with the censorship board.

(A court case reveals that the company had, in fact, registered and paid the required fees.) Ironically, the director was arrested the day of his return from the Zuma Film Festival in Abuja where Tsintsiya had won an award for Best Film on Social Issue. "

-snip-

Click http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=43857
to read more about what is now happening in Northern Nigeria and what could happen to creative people in my nation and your own nation if people aren't vigilant and pro-active.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:51 AM

I meant to post a hyperlink to that Mudcat thread that Guest Felipa started to alert us to the oppression of creativity that is occurring in one province of Nigeria. Here's that link:

thread.cfm?threadid=121513&messages=7 "11 Hausa songs banned in Kano, Nigeria"

**

At this time, the only other posting besides Felipa's and mine is a comment that "jokes" about Nigerian scam. I sincerely hope that other 'Catters and Mudcat guests will visit that thread and demonstrate your support for the songwriters, musicians, authors, film makers, actors, and other creative people who are being oppressed in that particular part of Nigeria.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:46 AM

A slight aside.

Heard on Beeb R4 this morning. The most common surname in Great Britain is 1/4 of a million strong and it is the name Patel.

I think this perfect.

I have invited Britain born Asian friend/former colleague to attend folk club with me, but folk music is not her cup of tea. Invited Turkish friend but she is young and prefers to spend her evenings playing snooker or riding about on motor bike with her partner.

In fact I have invited all close colleagues and friends and only one has attended once. The general attitude is not interested. So we need to address the young.

Having said that I wonder how we can first meet and then invite BME groups to engage in folk music and dance of Great Britain? I think one way would be through school fetes. If local Morris teams, ceileidgh clubs and folk musicians and singers would just approach the parent associations, get and invite, attend, do demos and provide recruitment literature and really welcome all.... oh dear....

Sigh.. I am dreaming again.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"Isn't that what movements such as Folk Against Fascism is all about? Or is the concern about creativity being potentially stifled and actually stifled only there when it comes to White people??"

Standing in solidarity with other groups is very important, Azizi. But as I've explained previously, Folk Against Fascism has a very specific brief, and if we're not careful, the group could become diverted from that brief by trying to address too many issues on too large a scale.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM

Pne of the things folk against facism is about is ownership of folk and ensuring that it does not ecome a right wing propagandist tool.

Yes, we should be proud of our tradtions and open let all people irrespective of nationality and ethnicity share in the pleasure the provide.

At the same time our traditions should sit comfortably alongside other traditions such as Diwali and Eid and Carnival (even if we get the date wrong in Notting Hill). I was invited to attend a party to celebrate Eid once and fekt honoured to receive the invitation.

Lets promote lots of folk events, roots events, other cultural events to celebrate how it is the richness of diverse cultures makes Britain great, and welcome all people to enjoy and participate.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM

Ruth: I agree of course we must stick to our important,although at the moment a bit vague brief.
BUT, Azizi has a very valid reason to broaden the information gathering. This action in Pakistan is exactly what we are guarding against. Whilst we should not as a body actively engage ourselves in their problems it serves as a warning to us.
As an individual I shall be keeping an eye on the Pkistan problem and doing whatever small thing I can, but as an individual at the moment.
Thanks Azizi for your input, it has opened my eyes several times.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:00 AM

I think they said Patel is AMONG the most common surnames. There are 729862 Smiths at the last count. Patel comes 45th with 119855.

:-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM

I expect many will have seen this already, bu links are cheap enough!!
It says everything really.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:26 AM

"At the same time our traditions should sit comfortably alongside other traditions such as Diwali and Eid and Carnival "

This diversity is actively promoted in schools. My daughter goes to a CofE Primary school (it's the only primary school in the area)and alongside our traditional festivals, they learn all about those of other cultures.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM

Third try.

All together now !!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

We don't all have to do it all.

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM

"although at the moment a bit vague"

We are raising awareness amongst the wider public of the attempt by the BNP to appropriate traditional music and culture as part of its racist definition of nationalism, and to claim that culture as theirs. We are attempting to block that appropriation. We are exposing the BNP as a party which has not changed, no matter how much they try and spin their PR, but which is still full of nazis and fascists. This is a specific agenda and a specific response to a specific set of circumstances - namely, the election of the BNP in Yorkshire, their selling of folk music on their website despite the wishes of the artists involved, and their campaign guides which advise activists to infiltrate folk culture. At the moment, that is what this is about. If it develops over time to embrace wider issues and themes that's fine, but in the meantime, I feel that there are a lot of existing groups who already cover these things and, while we may share solidarity with them, they are doing what they do very well and anyone is very welcom to join them.

The campaign through which we will do this is still in development (which is forgiveable, I think, given that the whole thing is still only 4 days old). But it will cetainly include events, concerts, and distribution of awareness-raising materials such as badges, stickers and t-shirts, plus leaflets which explain the reasons behind the campaign.

I hope that's clear. I think it's all there on the facebook page, really.



By the way, to everyone who's told me about the identity theft - ta. Yes, they've done a "Hoff Bridge" on me, too. It's been reported to Facebook. Sad, really, but at least it exposes the BNP and their grubby little tactics to anyone who thinks they've "changed".


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM

"This action in Pakistan is exactly what we are guarding against."



... erm ... you mean Nigeria ...




... hey ... if I hadn't someone else would have ... :-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM

Folk music has been here longer than the BNP manifesto.
Worker co-ops have been around longer than the BNP manifesto.

We should not be apologising for the what we hold dear because the BNP are trying to hijack it. People own folk music, not the facist/Nazi movement. Suggestion to organisers: put Folk against Facism posters up at their venues, and refer to FaF in your adverts.

Br proud of how our traditionas are contributing and enriching a worldwide, diverse culture, of which we are a sma;ll part.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:24 AM

As a resident of the area that voted in the first fascist MEP (through intention or apathy), I feel the need to try to alert my fellow East Ridingers to the dangerous path that has been embarked on – especially as Hull was the birthplace of William Wilberforce, the man whose vision and efforts helped to end the slave trade in Britain. So I've written what I hope will be a rallying call to those who oppose these evil people. I intend to sing it at every opportunity.

The Legacy

In Hull, William Wilberforce first struck the spark
That kindled a beacon which lit up the dark
And as the flames soared it was clear to see:
The message that men must be equal and free.

Chorus:
So keep it alive, now, keep it alive,
William's legacy has to survive.
Freedom's hard-won so don't let it die
Use your voices and votes to stamp out the lies.

Today there are those who would put out Will's flame
And put our traditions and values to shame.
If you're black or you're brown, or a leftie, or gay,
Get out of our country, you're not welcome, they say.

Chorus

Now they don't have shaved heads, they wear collars and ties
But the cold light of hatred still shines in their eyes
And instead of the boot they use soft words and smile
But the message they peddle is equally vile.

Chorus

They may now think their views have legitimacy
And the Queen may invite them to join her for tea
But let's stand together and blow on Will's flame
And shout to these bastards: "Not in my name!"

Chorus

So good people of Hull and the East Riding towns
Don't let these bigots and fascists gain ground.
We've opened the door to their doctrine of hate
Now let's slam it again before it's too late.

Chorus

(Tune to follow).


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:42 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

We don't all have to do it all.

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear.
so does that make the Northumbrian Pipers society racist,because it promotes ,a SPECIFIC MUSIC,[IMO]no,it only becomes racist when it excludes other nationalities from playing that music.
Neither is Comhaltas racist,because it promotes Irish music.
it is justifiable,just as Strathspey and Reel societies are justifiable,they are justifiable because they gives people pleasure,and providing these societies are open to all nationalities they are not racist.
would you expect the Sheffield, Yorkshire carol singers,to start singing   French carols? to combat the BNP,that is ridiculous.
one of the hallmarks of Fascism,is telling others what they should do
if you want a multi cultural folk music club start one,you are free to do so.
it will only be when the BNP takes power that you will not be free to do so.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM

Folknacious
:here are the aims of the EFDSS
MISSION STATEMENT:

The English Folk Dance and Song Society will develop its resources, namely the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, Cecil Sharp House, its professional staff and its members, to:

• maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music;
• provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access;
• celebrate diversity and promote equality.
I do not think this is racist.
FOLKNACIOUS,why should folk club organisers change their booking policies?why should the EFDSS change its policy.
if you want a multinational/ international folksong/ music club,start one.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:40 AM

Here are some random comments:

Miskin Man, I recall reading on this thread or on another current thread something about the oppression of musicians and other creative composers/performers in Pakistan. That being the case, I can understand how you substituted the nation name "Pakistan" for the nation name "Nigeria". Bottom line-I have no problem with that.

**
I feel that too much energy on this thread is being spent on people feeling a need to declare that they aren't racist. I don't like the way this looks and feels. In the past, I've received private messages from some folks saying that they try to be extra careful what they say around me because they are concerned that I would call them a racist or-if I don't out and out call them a racist-I and other people might consider them racist.

This troubles me because 1. I rarely have indicated that something someone wrote is racist (note I'm talking about a person's actions and not the person himself or herself) and 2. I want to be seen as "just one of the group" and feel that I shouldn't be thought otherwise just because of my race and just because I sometimes feel the need to raise issues of prejudice/racism and/or respond to issues that others here have raised about race/prejudice. In other words, I don't go around Mudcat or my offline life accusing Mudcatters and guests at being racism.

That said, I believe that the current description (as I read about it on Mudcat-of Anglo British folk music (to use the "Anglo" meaning "White"terminology that is known in the United States)lends itself to expropriation by the BNP because it has so few non-White practitioners and followers/fans and because it appears to consider itself the only "traditional music" in Britain. In addition, the acceptance of songs with the "N" word, if that does occur as I read on Mudcat, and the custom of blackening up don't help answer any charge that might come (and I do believe will come) from people who are/will be far less friendly to your (our) cause than me.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:50 AM

Never mind the political bickering, here's something else we can all do:
(I don't think anybody's mentioned this yet)

There's a petition which says NOT IN MY NAME. The petition will
be handed into the European Parliament on the day that BNP leader Nick
Griffin takes his seat.

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/notinmyname

Get your digital cameras clicking!
(you are asked to send in a photo of yourself holding up a card saying "not in my name")
63478 signatures already. That seems pretty amazing to me: it must have been running for a while)

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:53 AM

I tried to upload a photo and it went 404 - but if it does that just quit and log in again.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:02 AM

I don't think it is appropriate to define Anglo by its American meaning when it's being used in England, Azizi. From Wiki:

"The term Anglo is used as a prefix to indicate a relation to the Angles, England or the English people, as in the terms Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-American, Anglo-Celtic, Anglo-African and Anglo-Indian. It is often used alone, somewhat loosely, to refer to the English people in The Americas, Australia and Southern Africa. It is also used, both in English-speaking and non-English-speaking countries, to refer to Anglophone people of other European origins.

Anglo is a Late Latin prefix used to denote English- in conjunction with another toponym or demonym. The word is derived from Anglia, the Latin name for England, and still the modern name of its eastern region. Anglia and England both mean Land of the Angles, a Germanic people originating in the north German peninsula of Angeln."

English folk music is largely comprised of the indigenous folk music of England. It is not considered by anyone I know as the only traditional music in England - from ska to bhangra, it's all here, and long may it prosper.

There is nothing wrong, as Dick Miles has insightfully pointed out, with having a society or group dedicated to a particular genre of music or dance. As long as that society is welcoming and open to people of all backgrounds, and they too, as Britons (whether naturalised or born here) are allowed to feel equal ownership over that heritage, I don't really see the problem. I also think it's important to look for natural points of convergence. I'm hoping to have a project at Sidmouth next year which will look at Caribbean and English mumming traditions. It involves bringing a group of Dominican and Kittitian mummers to Sidmouth. It also involves work in local schools looking at both traditions. For me, these are natural and organic ways of examining diversity: find the points of commonality and use them as an entry point into each other's cultures.

That doesn't mean I think every folk club or singaround should contain African Caribbean songs - in fact, when at my local singaround a bunch of white, middle class people start singing Let My People Go or Bob Marley's Redemption Song, I cringe. I'd rather clubs and folk events were simply open and welcoming to anyone from other cultures who wishes to explore them.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM

FOLKNACIOUS,why should folk club organisers change their booking policies?why should the EFDSS change its policy. if you want a multinational/ international folksong/ music club,start one.

Did I suggest they should? As is often the case, you read selectively, buzzed by your own bonnet bees. All I was saying is that people who want to specialise just need to present their case in a way that doesn't accidentally sound like the BNP manifesto. The EFDSS have managed that. Not too hard, unless you are chasing bees.

Luckily I don't need to start my own. There's a very good one that I already attend which programmes all sorts of traditional music found in the UK, mostly from the white majority, occasional from a minority, which seems appropriately balanced, fun, successful, and not do-gooder tokenist at all


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:27 AM

That said, I believe that the current description (as I read about it on Mudcat-of Anglo British folk music (to use the "Anglo" meaning "White"terminology that is known in the United States)

Please DON'T. Many Scots, Welsh and Irish will find that INCREDIBLY offensive. We AREN'T English, not even if you use a Latinate word for "English" to say so. "Traditional music of the British Isles" will do.


lends itself to expropriation by the BNP because it has so few non-White practitioners and followers/fans and because it appears to consider itself the only "traditional music" in Britain.

The Scottish experience suggests differently. Pretty near any political demonstration by forces on the left will have a Highland piper (or band thereof) near the front.   There might well also be a samba school, but the expectation is that at least a large fraction of people involved in Scottish traditional music can be expected to turn up at any event opposing the sort of thing the BNP stands for. (The only kind of music in Scotland specifically associated with the far right is fife-and-drum band music, as used by the Orange Order).

There are a few non-white performers of Scottish music - mainly on the bagpipes (and that's been routine for decades), but one of the best-known Scottish traditional pub singers in Edinburgh is of Chinese extraction.

Getting morris sides at the front of English anti-fascist demos, and covered by the media when doing it, would help.


In addition, the acceptance of songs with the "N" word, if that does occur as I read on Mudcat,

Fairly unusual - I don't think I've ever heard that in a British folk performance, even one of the most antiquarian variety - but remember that the word itself doesn't carry quite the same nightmare emotional freight that it does in the US.

At any rate there is absolutely NO chance that you would hear the word used in a British folk performance in a context where it would lend support to fascists.


and the custom of blackening up don't help answer any charge that might come (and I do believe will come) from people who are/will be far less friendly to your (our) cause than me.

Blackening up really is an irrelevance. It doesn't historically have anything to do with African people or images of them, and it isn't generally perceived to be related to racial issues, even by racists. Blacked-up dance teams look more like mineworkers coming off shift than anything else. It's crazy to try and pick a fight with people who perform in that tradition - more likely to lose allies for the anti-fascist movement and create new friends for the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM

Azizi:
Sorry, I can do confused...But my sentiments were correct


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM

I've now tried signing the "not in my name" thing and I got an error message too (a different one from Tom). I'll keep trying...

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:25 AM

Folknacious

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult.

Getting it quite so spectacularly wrong takes some doing.

One of the purposes of this exercise is to prevent British folk music becoming tainted by the BNP. You seem to be saying that the battle is already lost; that the BNP already have possesion. The only way we can prevent this scum taking it over is making it truly our own WITHOUT having to justify ourselves.

Would you have told Ewan MacColl that the policy at the Singers Club of only singing songs from your own culture "sound(ed) like the BNP manifesto."?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM

Oh no, not again.

Policy @ Ballads & Blues as determined by the membership.

Not Ewan MacColl (who had a wide repertoire from all over.
And not the Singers' but the Ballads & Blues.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

Getting it quite so spectacularly wrong takes some doing.

Yes, I'm not sure how you manage it

One of the purposes of this exercise is to prevent British folk music becoming tainted by the BNP. You seem to be saying that the battle is already lost; that the BNP already have possesion.

Not at all. How on earth you and old Lietnenant Birdsnest manage to completely misinterpret plain English is beyond me. Which bit of "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult" are you having such trouble with?

The BNP don't have posession and I hope they never will: they might do if careless explanations of motivation (and heads in sand) play into their hands.

The other people who worry me are the little Englander folkies who look at the BNPs sweetened camouflage words and go "oh, they might just have a point." The only point the BNP have is on the end of their bayonets.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:49 AM

Correction -

Would you have told the residents* and members of the B&B Club (later known as the Singers Club) that their policy of only singing songs from your own culture "sound(ed) like the BNP manifesto."?

* Who included Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:52 AM

Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same.

DeG


Like This?

The Imagined Village


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

We don't all have to do it all.

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear.
FOLKNACOIUS these were your words,you said that it is only just justifiable with difficulty.
it is perfectly justifiable.
The Northumbrian PipersSociety,EFDSS,Comhaltas,the Strathspey and Reel society,[Icould probably find more examples]All have as their aim the promotion of one specific music,rather than the promotion of international folk music,it only becomes RACIST OR UNJUSTIFIABLE when they exclude someoneFROM PLAYING MUSIC on race grounds.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM

Folknacious

Which bit of "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult" are you having such trouble with?

Er, all of it. I find the implication that unless I can "justify" my love of British or English traditional music that I am somehow a closet BNP supporter deeply offensive.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

Jack Campin: "Blacked-up dance teams look more like mineworkers coming off shift than anything else. It's crazy to try and pick a fight with people who perform in that tradition - more likely to lose allies for the anti-fascist movement and create new friends for the BNP."

I must agree with Jack here, too much damage done by whites 'in the name of' race relations has already occurred in the UK. It generates antipathy towards the cultures it purports to protect and is too often counterproductive. I believe in depth dialogues with British black people, would have to occur before anyone started intensive alterations of long existant native traditions 'on their behalf'.

As for the N word, I've only ever heard OF it being used second hand, though the context was very ugly sounding - and there is a clear danger in such practices gaining popularity amongst BNP 'folkies'. But I do think it aught to be actively discouraged in any folk gathering, due to the potential wrongful abuse of 'historical accuracy' and 'tradition'.

I liked the post by SPB-Cooperator however: "Suggestion to organisers: put Folk against Facism posters up at their venues, and refer to FaF in your adverts." As any such declaration, must deter fascists from indulging in 'traditional' practices for racist reasons.

Nice post from Ruth A there too. Sorry to hear about the trashy intimidation tactics - much respect to you for being willing to undertake organising a public response to this this challenge to folk traditions and the the folk community.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM

With reference to "blacking up" in the UK, it doesn't have the connotations it might have in the USA as the following may illustrate.

Two weekends ago, I was dancing at Thaxted at a large Morris Ring gathering (about 400 morris dancers etc.). After we'd danced for the day, we (being rapper sword dancers) thought we'd like to dance inside a pub with a decent floor. Went in and found the Britannia Coconut dancers (very trad. Lancashire morris who black up ... looking, as has been said, like coal miners) and on the front corner of the bar a black morris dancer from a team in the West Country. All just talking together affably.

No fuss. No suggestion of anything racial. Just a bunch of blokes having a convivial pint. All male of course, cos this is the Morris Ring, but that's another theme (and something I find quite difficult in itself).

:-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Darowyn
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:43 AM

Well I think I know what I am going to do.
I'll get the crew who were involved in this together again:-
Colourblind Cafe
and record some folk tunes and songs. The example is a multi lingual Jazz track- but you'll get the message!
The project includes people from four continents and a dozen national origins.
A good British band who will bring a world feel to British tunes.
And let the blasted BNP find some comfort in that if they can!
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM

I find the implication that unless I can "justify" my love of British or English traditional music that I am somehow a closet BNP supporter deeply offensive.

There was no such implication. The only "implication" was exactly what it said: that people who [b]aren't[/b] BNP supporters but want - and why not? - to have a specialist white Brit trad music policy for a club have to pick their words carefully to avoid it inadvertently looking like they're saying the same thing as the BNP manifesto. And that adding support for FAF would be a good way of helping that.

Nobody said you had to book folk music from other cultures. Or were a BNP supporter. Just that you jump to conclusions that aren't there . . . which makes me wonder why you're so over-defensive.

Sheesh, why are you lot so f***ing [i]dense[/i]!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Folknacious, some people WANT to be offended, they feel their day simply isn't made unless they feel offended at least a half dozen times.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Welsh Viv
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

For folk sake do you really think that folk music is gonna get someone interested in politics. Get a life...and some decent music.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

"For folk sake do you really think that folk music is gonna get someone interested in politics. Get a life...and some decent music"

Oh look a Welsh troll *LOL


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:25 PM

Reminds me of someone going out of their way to watch dodgy porn, and then exclaiming in moral affront to the world, how dreadful and shocking their dodgy porn viewing experience was!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

note the use of for FOLK sake...I've seen the usage somewhere before on these threads, damned if I can remember who used it though....


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM

Folknacious, you are getting this so utterly wrong that I don't quite know how to get through to you. Busy for the next couple of days. I might try and get back to you on Sunday. In the meantime, have a think about what you are saying.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM

WV the whole purpose of this is to stop extreme right-wing politics highjacking folk music for their evil ends. Read the posts!!!!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:32 PM

Here's my contribution to the blacked-up faces part of this thread.......

Twice in recent years, whilst we were organising British tours for our great friend, the Gambian kora player and singer, Jali Sherrifo Konteh, we have managed to get him booked at the Tenterden Folk Festival. This was great for Sherrifo because he loves all aspects of traditional culture wherever they are from. At one of these we were watching the Saturday afternoon procession and a blacked-up border morris team danced by.

"Why do they put black on their faces?" Sherrifo asked.
My reply was that it was to help to disguise their faces.

"Oh yes. Like the Fula dancers that I took you to see in Busara." he replied.

That reminded me that on one of our trips to The Gambia, Sherrifo had taken us to a boys' circumcision/coming-of-age ceremony in a village in the south of the country and the Fulas in that village - it was a predominately Mandinka village - that were going to be dancing covered their faces with a sort of white chalky mud.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM

Folknacious, I'm still trying to work out why you quoted Billy Bragg's song at me. You think I don't know the history of these islands and our folklore? I think you missed the point of my posts, and as you're accusing others of being dense that's a bit ironic.

I'll try to keep it simple. As someone who is NOT "half English" I want the same right to claim and support my cultural heritage as someone from another background, without any risk of hi-jack from the BNP or any other political group. Like anyone else, I also want to be able to incorporate other influences (or not), invite participation (or not) from other people who share my ethnicity (or not)and not feel I'm doing this out of compulsion or coercion either to attempt the strange phenomenon of "multicultural diversity" or to cock a snook at the BNP.

My fears about the multicultural compulsion come after years of teaching in Hackney and Tower Hamlets.   It feeds the fears of the "Little Englanders" who are the target audience of the BNP. Only when the English (and I'm deliberately not saying British in this context) feel they can express pride in their own cultural heritage and feel it's equally valued by the media and grant-funders will we de-fuse that particular situation.

Me, I love the rich mix of Britain in all of its diversity. I'm also an enthusiastic supporter of our indigenous culture. Please don't preach at me, even through the words of Billy Bragg.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM

I'm a bit concerned that we are expected to put photos of ourselves on the petition.
Since there has been for some time a photo of me talking to ANL supporters picketing an NF stall at a fete - a stall which, despite the woman running it claiming she was not ashamed of her party, did not show who it was, and was happy to take money from the local Indian population, I am a little cautious of contributing more information to their database.Photos are part of their intimidation techniques.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM

Well done for your last post, Vic. Common sense demonstrated by a very clear example.

Perhaps we won't have any more silly comments on that particular subject now.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:53 PM

I made a modest suggestion that it might be nice to invite Zimbabwean friends down to the pub singsong or folk club. A capella African sits very attractively and pleasantly alongside Coppers harmony songs. I am surprised(well I'm not really) that this simple suggestion has been turned into "multi cultural compulsion" by another poster. I appreciate that there are about three posters on this thread who view the idea of a black singer visiting a folk club with hostility, but I am very pleased that the vast majoriy of folkies here in Britain would be absolutely delighted by a such a visit, and would be very welcoming. On that basis I will continue to arrange such visits, which luckily have so far led to very nice social occasions. AS far as I am concerned, a folk club is a folk club. If people want to run a white folk club, let them put that on the poster.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:58 PM

Shit I used to be happy to pay to see Johnny Silvo, a grand singer. Still would be. I've never seen a folk club disrespect a folksong singer from a different ethnicity.

Rifleman - I am coming to like some of your posts more and more. Some of the time!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:06 PM

It does happen, Greg. We managed to get Sherrifo booked into a number of folk clubs on those tours - including our own in Lewes, of course.

Other recent guests at our club have included Abdul Tee-Jay giving a wonderful evening of Palm-Wine music from Sierra Leone which - like Southern African harmony - fits well into the folk club setting and Musa M'Boob's masterly drumming in a pairing with Roger Watson's melodeon.

And the guest list at the Magpie's Nest has included a locally-based Congolese band.

Get me to tell you the story of Rev. Gary Davis staying at our flat after the folk club some time; I remember it really well though it was nearly forty years ago now.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM

hello all,
i can't see why it should even be an issue if the person sitting next to you is black and singing or white and singing, as long as everyone is having a good time and hopefully singing in tune( me included) it's all good. why should anyone be offended by what we sing? we sing songs of love, compassion, gaitey, and strife, which anyone who understands the language could identify with. why would anyone want an all white folk club on purpose? i always thought that anyone was welcome ,if you know anywhere like that,, please tell me so i can make sure i never go there.

i join in with the bits i can of foriegn singers so i wouldn't have thought there would be an issue. (if i don't like the song i simply go for a smoke break) lol

take care all

j x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:28 PM

Perhaps we won't have any more silly comments on that particular subject now.

Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual to see what those acts meant. For someone the other side of the Atlantic, generalizing from the semantics of blackface minstrel shows (which nobody here is advocating) was an intelligent guess.

I still haven't had any response to my query about what the BNP might be up to with regard to the Scottish folk scene. Excalibur did include a few Scottish numbers in their catalogue so they're not totally ignoring us. Nobody know more?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:59 PM

"Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual to see what those acts meant. For someone the other side of the Atlantic, generalizing from the semantics of blackface minstrel shows (which nobody here is advocating) was an intelligent guess."

It's more than a guess: Azizi has been party to the various mudcat discussions about the roots of blacking up in minstrelsey, as well as those about Padstow Darkie Days. Personally, I think the issue of whether blacking up is acceptable is far from an open and shut case within the folk world, and that even "a close-up experience of the the sociology of British folk ritual" doesn't necessarily tell you what those acts "mean". But I'd prefer not to discuss it on this particular thread.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:13 PM

I remain unconvinced that there is no historical connection between the British custom of blackening up and the American blackface minstrel shows (which toured widely in Britain). That said-I admit that I don't have-(as Jack Campin) phrased it-"a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual" and therefore I don't know what blackening up means to different populations of British people-including those who blackened up in the past (and sung minstrel songs, including songs with the "N" word) and those who blacken up now (who may or may not sing minstrel songs, including those with the "N" word-a word I find offensive regardless of the race of person singing it.

In 2005 and 2007 I asked if any research studies had been done on the attitudes about blackening up that are held by People of Color in the United Kingdom.

"Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:43 AM

I repeat a question I asked in 2005: Have there been any research studies of the impact of UK blackening up traditions on self-esteem and group-esteem of people of colour in the UK and on White people in the UK? If so, what were those studies and what were their results?"
thread.cfm?threadid=87981#1943998

-snip-

It is now 2009 and I'm asking the same question. Surely some reputable research has been done on this subject. I would appreciate it if someone could point me to reports of such studies.

As I wrote earlier in this thread or another recent Mudcat thread about the BNP, I realize that everyone who supports the Folk Against Fascism group and its mission will not agree on everything. Regardless of the rationale that most British Mudcatters have made for blackening up (that it is a disguise) and regardless of the comparisons that some African performers have made to the British custom of blackening up and the custom of using white ashes or white face and body paint in traditional African rituals and blackening up, I still don't like the British custom of blackening up. Because I am an American, I realize that I don't have to like it, but again, I wonder how Black Britons and other British people of color feel about this. I also wonder what Black Britons in general and other British People of Color consider to be "British traditional folk music". Perhaps it's as difficult if not impossible for one definition of "British traditional folk music" from British People of Color as it is from Mudcat members in general. However, I don't think that this is a tangential question to the mission/issues of the Folk Against Fascism group.

My bottom line is that I very much believe in what I consider the mission of Folk Against Fascism (which as I understand it) is that people are uniting and taking pro-active steps to ensure that hate groups such as the BNP aren't successful in their attempt to expropriate British folk customs, including folk music, in support of the BNP agenda.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:16 PM

Joan, I posted my comment before reading yours.

I agree that the discussion of blackening up should not continue on this particular Mudcat thread. FWIW, I'm not interested at this time in in continuing that discussion beyond what I wrote in my preceding comment to this thread and my previous comments in other Mudcat threads.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:47 PM

I do not view black singers singing in folk clubs with hostility.
Folk club organisers ,have the right to book who they wish.
These decisions will vary,Vic Smith will have had a different booking policy,say to the Ruskin house folk and blues club,or to Traditions at the Tiger,what is wrong with that.,is there any evidence that any organisers are racist,if there is then name them if not shut up.
if an organiser of an event or a society,wishes to promote English traditional music,as does the EFDSS,then they only become racist,if they exclude other nationalities,from participating.

Mission Statement & Strategy
MISSION STATEMENT:

The English Folk Dance and Song Society will develop its resources, namely the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, Cecil Sharp House, its professional staff and its members, to:

• maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music;
• provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access;
• celebrate diversity and promote equality.
are you suggesting that the EFDSS,should put up a notice saying Whites only at Cecil Sharp House,if you are, then it is you that is racist.
if the EFDSS has a brief to promote English traditional music and song,is it not reasonable to accept that other Folksong clubs if they so wish should not do the same.
do you criticise BLUES CLUBS for promoting one specific music,and excluding English Traditional music,no I bet you dont,neither do you criticise Cajun Music Clubs for promoting Cajun Music exclusively.,do you criticise the Northumbrian Pipers society for promoting Northumbrian Pipe tunes.
please answer these questions


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:25 PM

Captain Birdseye,

If you are specifically asking me a question or questions, I would appreciate it if you would address those questions to me by name.

If you are asking if I criticize clubs that focus on specific music genres for specializing in specific music genres, of course I don't.

With regard to British folk clubs that focus on "English traditional music", my point is that I'm not sure what "English traditional music" means and I'm not sure if everyone in England-including Black Britons (in general) and other British People of Color-agrees on what that referent means. Ditto for English folk music-which I gather from reading Mudcat threads isn't necessarily the same thing as "English traditional music".

In addition, I don't agree with your comment (one that I read before on this thread or other threads from you and/or from others) that "if an organiser of an event or a society,wishes to promote English traditional music,as does the EFDSS, then they only become racist,if they exclude other nationalities,from participating.
There are other ways that racism can be expressed and/or condoned apart from excluding "other nationalities" from participating.

[my italics added for emphasis]

BTW, I assume when you wrote "other nationalities" that you meant what Americans would refer to as "race" since quite a number of People of Color are British, that is-they are the same nationality as White British people.

As I write this, I'm mindful that I learned from some other Mudcat discussions that there is not only a difference between what many Americans and many British people mean by "race" but there is also a difference between what many Americans and many British people mean by "Black [people]". The referent "People of Color (PoC) as I am using it to refer to all those persons who are considered [in the USA at least] to be non-White) has become widely used in formal & scholarly discussions at least among PoC.

The fact that sometimes British English and American English are "foreign languages" to their residents may mean that we don't always "get" (understand) the nuances of what people are saying on this international discussion forum. Added to that is the fact that there are also Canadians, Australians, people from other European nations, and other folks posting on this forum and probably also on this thread-and add to that fact that we also include colloquial expressions and are each speaking from our own experiences, it's a wonder that we appear to understand each other as well as we do.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:31 PM

The current phrase that equates with PoC in Britain is BME (black and minority ethnic). But it's primarily used in government and funding circles. Most British people still just say black.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM

Here's one reason why as an American I'm concerned about the issues of White supremacists organizations/political parties such as the BNP:

"Guys like this [former politician/current television news commentator Pat Buchanan] really do scare me

The xenophobia, the ultra-nationalism, the utter contempt for rule of law... if the Republican Party becomes the party of this clown, and of Sarah Palin, they may lose more of the electorate, but we have also lost something important. I the only person who misses an Eisenhower-style Republican Party? Conservative, wrong, but not hateful? I would like to see a real opposition party based on real ideas, based on some kernal of rationality - even if I don't agree with their specific policies.

Maybe in a changing nation clowns like this asshole undermine Republican electoral chances. Maybe they will be marginalized for a generation or until they change or until they fall apart completely. But unexpected disasters can and do happen. Economies can melt down, violent events can take place, and the public is easily stampeded. It scares the crap out of me to see the opposition turning into this sort of nativist nationalist - indeed fascist - opposition. "

by ivorybill on Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 05:26:41 PM PDT

**

"This is ugly but no doubt true

As whites become a minority] this type of interest-group "white nationalism" will inexorably increase.

Even in Europe the demographic changes resulting from immigration are driving a massive increase in far-right white racial separatist and supremacist politics. WHith the US's much deeper heriatage of racist exclusivism and lack of a leftist tradition to siphon social tensions into class-based politics, racial confrontation politics on the part of whites, especially among the marginalized, poor, working-class, and small-town population, is very likely to be one of the dominating features of AMerican politics for the next 30 years."

by ActivistGuy on Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 04:57:44 PM PDT

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/12/741739/-MSNBC,-Pat-BuchananWhite-Supremacists

MSNBC, Pat Buchanan & White Supremacists
by BarbinMD
Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 04:50:06 PM PDT


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:54 PM

Joan, thanks very much for that information. I wasn't familiar with that "BME" term.

With regard to "black"/"Black", I learned from another Mudcat thread that in Britain some Asian people such as those from Sri Lanka and Pakistan are also called "black". This is different from the custom/definition in the USA. I recognize that this is tangential to this thread. However I believe that this example points out the difficulties that are inherent to an international discussion forum.

I recognize that and understand why most of the members of the Folk Against Fascism group are now and probably will always be from Britain. However, if more Americans join the FaF group, there will be other examples such as the "nationalities" means "races" in Britain that demonstrate the differences in terminology that are between us and which may cause problems if not properly explained and understood.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:39 PM

"This is ugly but no doubt true

As whites become a minority] this type of interest-group "white nationalism" will inexorably increase."

This is one of the scare tactics used by the BNP to whip up paranoia: they talk aobut whites becoming a minority in Britain in just a few decades due to unregulated immigration. They talk about being "flooded". But immigration into the UK is, in fact, strictly regulated. And Britain is still 92% white.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:41 AM

Goid point... flooding implies that the UK popylation would rise from aproximately 60 million to 90 million in a short period of time. I hink in my lifetime (nearly 50 years) it has risen by about 6 million.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:27 AM

Oh, Greg, if you meant me when you referred to "multicultural compulsion" then I wish you would read such comments in context. Your wish to invite performers to your club or session is great and I have often wished (and expressed that wish) that we had more diversity in our clubs and festivals.   
But what I am trying very hard to say is that where a folk club wants to concentrate on traditional English music (and wants to define that in whatever way they choose) there should be no implicit or explicit interpretation that they would be a home for BNP supporters. As things stand, I can go to a Welsh language or Welsh folk music music event, an Irish language or Irish folk music event, Breton, Scottish, Bengali, Jamaican .... fill in the defining culture for yourself - and none of these will be under any kind of pressure to include other cultures. But make that "English" and all of a sudden we're slightly ashamed to put our heads over the parapet.

Make the choices you want. I too would go out of my way to hear South African black unaccompanied singers - although as people have a tendency to sing along in most UK folk clubs I wouldn't necessarily think that was the best venue for hearing their voices.

And I used the phrase "multicultural compulsion" because I have lived with that in my professional life for some time, both in teaching and in storytelling. Too often it's a matter of lipservice to qualify for funding or political approval rather than an intelligent choice. If you're making intelligent choices, I'm in your corner.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM

Azizi: You said it yourself:
"My bottom line is that I very much believe in what I consider the mission of Folk Against Fascism (which as I understand it) is that people are uniting and taking pro-active steps to ensure that hate groups such as the BNP aren't successful in their attempt to expropriate British folk customs, including folk music, in support of the BNP agenda."

That is why I am supporting FAF. Any diversions into yet more discussion of Darkie Days and Blacked up Morris, only dilutes and distracts from the present mission. You have agreed that Americans have a diifferent view of this than us over here. Let's leave it at that for now and concentrate on the real issue. Other threads exist to discuss blacking up in all its guises.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 05:02 AM

"As things stand, I can go to a Welsh language or Welsh folk music music event, an Irish language or Irish folk music event, Breton, Scottish, Bengali, Jamaican .... fill in the defining culture for yourself - and none of these will be under any kind of pressure to include other cultures. But make that "English" and all of a sudden we're slightly ashamed to put our heads over the parapet."

That statement is worth examining in the context of the wider discussion here.

We shouldn't forget that it's in large part the legacy of the pre-BNP (the National Front) which got us to this place. They did such damage to the whole concept of English nationalism in the 80s, by linking it to racism, that it has never recovered. Now those very same people (many of whom now run the new-look BNP) are capitalising on the legacy THEY CREATED to say to white English people, "All these other cultures can celebrate their identity - why can't you? Why should you have to be embarrassed?"

I find it incredibly perverse that they present themselves as the solution to a problem they not only created, but would, if they became more powerful, both strengthen and perpetuate.

I can't believe there are people who fall for their rhetoric.

The other thing to say to people who tell us that the BNP are nothing to worry about, and that they will always be on the political periphery, is that it only took a tiny minority back in the 80s to bring English nationalism into such disrepute that 25 years later it has not yet recovered.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

Azizi,I was adressing Greg Stephens.
nobody accuses the hammersmith irish centre of being racist because it promotes Irish music,nobody accuses CAJUN MUSIC CLUBS of being racist because they specialise in one kind of music,you cannot have one rule for some and another rule for others.
Iam in favour of multi national folk music clubs ,I am also in favour of clubs/ societies that promote exclusively one kind of music.
what I am fighting against,is the BNP hijacking our music,and the attitude of certain people to dictate what club organisers should have as booking policies,leave that up to the organisers,if you dont like it start your own club,instead of whingeing on this forum.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

"the BNP are nothing to worry about, and that they will always be on the political periphery"

try telling that to several cities where there are more than one BNP member sitting on council, Stoke-on-Trent comes to mind.

While I'm posting this,I'm listening to Sandy Denny's wonderful recording The North Star Grassman and the Ravens, Late November at the moment, and I got to wondering what, if anything, Sandy would have made of all this.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM

Dick, Greg does indeed organise some very good multicultural sessions and concerts. Although I am sure he needs no-one to fight his corner for him I do know he could be too busy to respond for a few days.

I don't think anyone is advovating that traditional English music should be somehow banned or restricted. All we are saying is that it is simply because most clubs do have a image of English exclusivity, rightly or wrongly, then it does encourage organsisations lik ethe BNP to latch on to them.

As you say, we have Irish centres, Cajun clubs etc. I, for one, have sung and English song at an Irish club. I have not been to a Cajun club but I am pretty sure they would be happy with me squeezing out an Englsh tune in a Cajun style. As long as the BNP know that English music is inclusive of other cultures we will have nothing to worry about.

Greg is one of the people that is that is doing just that. Alongside playing and promoting some very fine English music and it is doing the cause of FaF no good to argue between ourselves!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,coolkieless Rifleman
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

"BNP know that English music is inclusive of other cultures we will have nothing to worry about."

I'll rest easy in my bed knowing that.........


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM

Ruth, yes, I was aware of the history and all the various reasons why Englishness has been a difficult thing to deal with. And this is precisely why I'm concerned that we shouldn't feel we have to be defensive if some of our folk clubs continue to concentrate on what they've always concentrated on. I think it's interesting that Dick and I are making substantially similar points - he lives in Ireland, I live in Wales, and both of us can see the difference in countries that are proud of their own culture.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:12 PM

My idea seems to have gone down well.
There is every possibility that the Birmingham based Urban Jungli Project will be recording a set of British Folk songs.
It's a sort of reverse multi-culturalism, by which people with roots in other cultures are invited to share their take on the native one.
I can't be bothered with all the arguing on here, I just want use our music to lay down a marker about what the real Britain is, as a counter to the racist and factional nonsense that is coming out of the woodwork recently.
Let's get some FAF gigs sorted!
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM

How promising and interesting too.
I suspect that younger people (of whatever background - but in particular including British folk) will generally be more interested in becoming involved that kind of positive pro-action than some of the older folk enthusiasts who may prefer a more conservative form of action. Though to be fair to DeG there (who isn't I believe a yung'un?), that was an excellent post IMO...

Inevitably some forms of participation in FaF, will be more reserved than others, while some will be more dynamic and challenging. I believe what matters is not that all participants agree on a single *unified method of action*, but that each do what they *enjoy* and are *happy to*, while maintaining a *unified purpose*.

Though there can never be any harm in trying something new once in a while for anyone...?

I think the thing to hopefully attempt to maintain in view throughout, is that the music is there to be shared and enjoyed. If people are not genuinely enjoying their form of activism (though of course there are unpleasant challenges for those in very public view), then something needs to be reconsidered.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Azizi,

I think your post on the atrocities in Nigeria fit well within the "Folk Against Fascism"
agenda. It has to be recognized that throughout history and the world, Africans and African-Americans and Blacks, Asians, Hispanics all have been victimized by fascism which contains the component of discrimination by race and culture. To isolate "Folk Against Fascism'' to a local problem regarding the BNC is short-sighted. FAF must address the larger issues in order to be effective in informing how folk music is used as a social force for change.

What happens in Africa affects us all. It resonates in communities all over the world.

At the present time, fascism is rearing its ugly head in many countries including the US.
Mussolini's definition of fascism prevails today in the form of corporate tyranny in the world's economy. It impacts on every country in the world.

Power, greed and money are the three major components of fascism and the capitulation
of world leaders to this ideology are evident. At stake are the goals of the IMF, NAFTA and the other financial bodies that promote "Free Trade" without "Fair Trade". The former is fascistic, the latter, anti-fascist.

Thanks for keeping us informed about Africa.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM

"Let's get some FAF gigs sorted!"

There's a meeting at the beginning of July to discuss a concert tour of major venues, but it will be important to have events of all sizes, appealing to different types of audience.

More news as it becomes available, but it's all looking quite exciting.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:38 PM

Crow sister - How did you guess? :-)

Rifleman - Stop siniping :-P

David el Gnomo antigua


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM

When some BNP members made appreciative noises about Bellowhead John Boden gave a suitable response.He put an anti fascist sticker on his fiddle and spoke out against the BNP.
ifor


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

"To isolate "Folk Against Fascism'' to a local problem regarding the BNC is short-sighted."

The FaF has a very *specific* focus to raise awareness of the BNP's activities, because English/British traditional music and folk customs are being *specifically targeted by the BNP* for far-right wing propaganda.

As RA explained below, the organisation was created to counter propagandist activities of the BNP targeting English traditional music and custom. It could have been called: "Campaign to raise awareness about, and challenge the British National Party's politicisation of Traditional English and British music and customs." But it would be less catchy. However I think the Facebook page makes the remit very clear.

No doubt if the organisation develops and gains momentum, the brief could be expanded in time to encompass broader issues. But IMHO it's far too early to demand it extend itself beyond this immediate challenge, at such an early point in its conception.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

Multiculturalism took on new meaning for me last night when the International Folk Dance group (Seattle), out of close to 40 dances we did, enjoyed the Greek dance Syrtos to the music of Ruby Love, Cat Stevens and the Turkish dance Sweet Girl to the Beatles Do you Need Anybody. No one complained about "tradition"; everyone had fun. Tradition is important to the point that is becomes a hindrance - maintained without being worshipped?

"Dissent is the ultimate form of patriotism."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM

"Dissent is the ultimate form of patriotism."

I don't agree.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

If we're down to sloganising, here are two from The English Acoustic Collective:

Traditions must be respected but conventions can be broken and
The gold you are searching for is in your own backyard.

Multicultural artistic collaboration is not new (Boka Halat/Edward II/Ale Möller Band, to start a long list) nor is dancing to whatever were the pop tunes of the day (the tunes in the Playford Dancing Master didn't fall from the C17 sky).

The focus of FaF, as well as safeguarding trad music from the threat of hijack by the BNP will also cover extension of this phenomenon, down through the ages. It's what English musicians have always done and they will not be deflected.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

75 years ago, the Volk was for fascism, not against.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:05 PM

Don't forget to write to your MP asking them to put English traditional arts and music into the National Curriculum - (in a safely teacherly way, of course)!

It won't take long to establish that it came from here, there and everywhere and belongs to everyone and no-one, and always did/will.

Waiting for a reply from mine.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 03:03 AM

Folk isn't alone in being targeted by the BNP. Seems anything seen to be classically British or English, is fair-play to be borrowed as BNP propaganda. Fortunately not everyone is willing to allow their traditions to serve the BNP's political agenda.

Royal British Legion (a non political organisation) have publicly demanded that Nick Griffin cease co-opting their poppy emblem in memoriam of war dead, as BNP political propaganda.
Nick Griffin hasn't been simply wearing the poppy on rememberance day like everyone else, but throughout his entire political campaign in Europe.

Open Letter to the Guardian

This is another example of their political advertising on the back of remembrance of war dead. A prior example was to be found during a remembrance day service where a wreath of poppies emblazened with the BNP slogo and a message which read: "You fought bravely to keep this country for your own. Rest in Peace. Now it's our turn." greatly distressed people who had gathered for the service.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM

Jesus can anyone imagine what their campaign strategy is like? Where do they get this stuff from?

Next we'll be seeing Griffin et al, gathering pridefully round the local war memorial, while wearing 'Beefeater' uniforms, tucking into Lancashire Hot-Pot followed by Eccles Cakes, before having a hearty singaround of pure unadultarated English folk songs. I reckon they'll top it off with a nice fireworks display, a brass band, and Last Night at the Proms style flag waving fest.

The BNP notion of Britishness is a surreal pastiche. It'd be funny if it wasn't so eerie and macabre.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM

Crow Sister....I'm 54 years old..and whether folks on here like it or not..I *remember* a time when what you've put above was is EXACTLY what DID happen.

OK, so times have moved on, a great deal, and now most prefer Chicken Korma to Lancashire Hot Pot, but...and it's a big BUT....but one of the reasons why the BNP is getting the support it is, imo, is because for decades we've never been allowed to mention our past, our memories, or to think back..

I was brought up on Roast Beef and Roast Potatoes..My Dad loved Eccles Cakes..I used to love seeing the Beefeaters, on a rare trip to London, soaked up the history, loved it all. I still love it, the Kings and Queens, the houses and castles..

There is NOTHING wrong with who we are. We are England...and that encompasses our memories, our past, present and future....

Now those memories also include the tantalising scent of curry drifting down the High Street, the Notting Hill Carnival, the Imagined Village and so much more, all of which have *enriched* this nation, but let us also remember our past too.

Hell, every other country in the world is allowed to, so why not us?

My childhood was NOT racist. My father went to war to ensure that scum like Hitler didn't win, that facists didn't rule the world..but to say what you've said above, is stirring nothing but anger, in my opinion, although I realise you may not have meant it that way.

I had a wonderful childhood, grew up in a wonderful country, but I've watched my country tear itself apart, because it lost sense of who it was, where it was going. It absorbed the hatred poured down on us by so many, when ALL countries have bad things in their past. Yes, we had slavery, but we also had William Wilberforce! Many other countries also had slavery, including the African nations themselves...Not ALL thing within the British Empire were bad...Yes, much was appalling, but there was some good there too.

My kids still have the occasional plate of Roast Beef and Yorkshire puddings, and that does NOT make them racist.

Neither does loving the sound of Church Bells, or seeing cricket being played on village greens...I don't give a flying duck what colour skin the players may have...It's the esssence of watching something that has been enjoyed for so long, that is part of who we are..

It's no different from loving folk songs for the same reason...

I get so sick of the way the racist label is flung around at innocent folks.

I'm English, I'm also British, but more importantly, I'm just one of the Human Race...and I see souls, not colours.

I loathe the BNP, but I love the country I grew up in...and the way it's changed too, in the areas where it's changed for the better...but I hate the way we've been made to feel so wrong, for so long...when England, in particular, (as the book goes) is one of the most welcoming and tolerant nations in the world!

So REJOICE over our Lancashire Hot Pot, and serve it up next to the Curry, because the Hot Pot is AS important as the Korma...

And THAT is what has been forgotten for so long....

AND...it is THAT which is feeding the BNP's success...

In my ever so humble opinion...

And no, I did NOT vote for them, before the usual bunch come in here yelling 'nasty little racist' at me...

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:28 AM

Lizzie, I think what Crow Sister is saying is not that these things are bad - of ocurse they aren't - but to highjack them and make them part of a fascist agenda devalues them and implies that those of us who have contrary views to these thugs - and who enjoy the diversity of food/culture/music/people which is part of the REAL Britain are being unpatriotic and subversive when, in fact, the exact opposite is true. For a view of the true diversity of England, look at the England In Particular website and the absolutely wonderful book that they produced.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:30 AM

Lizzie:
You re absolutely right these are all the things that many of us love and enjoy. But I think that is the reason Crow Sister mentioned them. It is the thought of the BNP using them for their own devious means that offends. I think you are both right, if that's possible on a Mudcat thread!

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM

You are missing my point quite entirely LC. But I don't have time to explain. And err 'thank you' too I guess, whatever that means...?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM

What leveller said...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:35 AM

What they said.. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM

Good post Lizzie !


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM

Hello, another suspicious GUEST!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM

Who has ever been accused of being racist for eatig roast beef?

Whats this thing about not being allowed to celebrate our 'Englishness'? Its a myth.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:25 AM

I agree with Lizzie.
we can be proud and wish to promote our music culture,and still appreciate the music and cultures of others.
I play sing English Scottish Irish ,traditional music,I also listen to reels to ragas on my wireless,and have a music collection that is very catholic.
I believe it is agood thing that the English folkscene has clubs with different booking policies,some english/scottish Irish traditional,some blues some contemporary,some all these things,some with performers form other parts of the world.
but if a club chooses to specialise[booking policy wise] in one kind of music,be it English traditional or African music or French music,the organiser has every right to do so,without being called racist.
I cant think of a single club that has ever stopped a performer from singing a song[other than the club Ewan and Peggy were involved in ,over 40 years ago],when Lisa Turner was stopped from singing Single Girl,or was she reprimanded after?.
did anyone accuse those organisers of that club of being racist.
I think it is a great idea ,if people want to organise multi cultural folk clubs festivals societies,I also think it is great ideas that societies/ clubs want to concentrate as Comhaltas and EFDSS do on Irish or English Traditinal music.
The two can co exist together,.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM

Lizzie,

We are lucky to live in a country where we can makr choices about how we wish to live our lives (within the law)

To take the Roast Beef of Old England analogy.

If we want a Sunday roast all we have to do is go to the supermarket and buy what we want, or even go to the local pub if we dint want to cook. Also in that supermarket we could buy the ingredients for a curry, a stir-fry. The choices we have reflect the diversity of cultures (and food tastes). But noone is condemning anyone who wants the roast beef.

However, BNP wold argue that because we have the choice of other foods we are losing the right to roast beef which is a twist of logic and quite frankly round spherical objects which for some people is a delicacy.

The same applies to culture which includes folk music. We have the choice of (English) folk music, all forms of folk music, roots, classical, reggae, pop, rap etc etc. As long as enough people have an interest in any type of culture, it will continue.

The main barriers to the continuity of folk is not some conspiracy o put down folk but more straightforward issues like pub landlords making more money from juke boxes, pool tables, restuarants and so forth.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM

Richard, your paranoia is starting show again. I am not a 'suspicious' guest, I post fairly regularly, but do not set up cookies on computers that I do not own.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:37 AM

Ah, but, Silas, despite the old saw that just because one is paranoid does not prove that "they" are not out to get one, the antics of the identity thief "Hoff Bridge" proves that "they" ARE out to get me.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:40 AM

In the midst of all the invective I'd like to remind people that today would have been the eightieth birthday of Anne Frank.

Where has he gone
My dearest son?
Perhaps during the uprising
The cruel enemy killed him

Ah, you bad people
In the name of God, the most Holy,
Tell me, why did you kill
My son?

Never again
Will I have his support
Even if I cry
My old eyes out
Were my bitter tears
to create another River Oder
They would not restore to life
My son

He lies in his grave
and I know not where
Though I keep asking people
Everywhere

Perhaps the poor child
Lies in a rough ditch
and instead he could have been
lying in his warm bed

Oh, sing for him
God's little song-birds
Since his mother
Cannot find him

And you, God's little flowers
May you blossom all around
So that my son
May sleep happily

From Henryk Górecki. Symphony No 3. The Symphony of Sorrowful Songs


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:45 AM

Richard, let there be no doubt, they are out to get you.

Just need to know just who 'they' are....


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:46 AM

Lizzie Cornish,

You say that the "Racist label gets thrown at innocent people" for liking cricket and roast beff. Well, that's not true. The racist label gets thrown at the guilty people who blame or hate non-white or immigrant communities for irrational reasons. In fact your post reads like BNP propaganda..."The lefties want to lynch you for drinking warm beer" sort of twaddle.

Racism is normally a symptom of individual anger, insecurity and ignorance. The internal dialogue of the racist boils down to something like...

"I'm not happy in my life, my skin. I can't cope with change around me. I have anger, the causes of which I can't or won't face up to. I see people unlike me and my kind, whom I worry are doing better, getting more, having a happier life than me AND I HATE THEM FOR IT!"

This is the message of the vile racist/fascist BNP. It's all about channeling anger and fear. You see it when the mobs set out to lynch a paediatrician because they think they've found a paedophile.

Hitler did it..."Jews are bleeding you dry, Gypsies steal babies, homosexuals threaten the future of the pure race (along with disabled people), together these are the strange "They" and Them" who you must blame for all Germany's troubles. Get rid of "Them" and you will be OK, you are the chosen, you are the entitled, THEY are the problem."

And the BNP are absolutely no different.

Griffin, on video, addressing white supremacist groups in America, denying the holocaust as a jewish propoganda plot and explaining how he is reluctantly forced to avoid talking about their race and white supremacy agenda in the UK...until they get more power!

Andrew Brons (the other MEP) was convicted of racially abusing a black police officer shouting "death to the jews" amongst other things. He was also the former president of the National Front.

These people are morally bankrupt fear and hate mongers. They are a danger to humanity. They use a legal political process by telling lies about what their real agenda is, hiding behind the laws of free speech.

Now, I don't suggest denying them a platform but I do advocate a policy of "Never forget, never compromise and never surrender" in exposing these people for what they are and for legally frustrating any and all efforts they make to peddle their lies and misinformation.

By the way, we can get rid of the BNP's rallying cries if we would all lobby our MP's of all parties to be better governors. The BNP say;

"THEY are taking the council houses"...I say build more of them then!

"THEY are taking the school places"...I say build more schools!

"THEY are filling up the hospitals"...Last time I was in one, it was full of white drunks but nonetheless BUILD MORE OF THEM!!!

It ain't rocket science.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: PaulF
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:18 AM

Well, what a lot of hot air this has generated. Along with a large dollop of smugness. People confuse, xenophobia and racism, with fascism.
Isn't it nice to be nice? We'll show them we disapprove, we are the exclusive members of Mudcat, and our disapproval counts.
NO IT DOESN'T!
Getting off your arses and doing something about it counts, going out and voting counts.
How many of you people actually know what fascism is? Then out of them, how many went out and voted in the recent election?
No petition ever changed anything!
PF


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:30 AM

paul, yes we know what facism means, yes we we voted, yes we are trying to do something by educating those people who don't know what the BNP stand for.

what else would you suggest o wise one?

jade


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:40 AM

"You say that the "Racist label gets thrown at innocent people" for liking cricket and roast beff. Well, that's not true..."

Wanna bet?

"The racist label gets thrown at the guilty people who blame or hate non-white or immigrant communities for irrational reasons."

No, the 'racist' label gets thrown around very liberally, by those who are some of the most excluding people I've ever come across, who seek to damage and destroy the reputations of those they wish to be rid of. Sadly for them, it doesn't always work.


"In fact your post reads like BNP propaganda..."The lefties want to lynch you for drinking warm beer" sort of twaddle."

'The Lefties' , the Extreme Lefties, like any 'Extreme' have a great deal to be ashamed of. They are all the same, no matter what side of the fence they are on. "Do things OUR way, or we will make you life absolute hell!"

I have NEVER done anything any way other than my own..and never will do.

The folk world has an element within it who actually feed the BNP, imo, perhaps without realising they're doing it, because they almost demand PURITY.

Purity of song
Purity of accent
Purity of music

ALL *must* be English, in the *right* way

It's a load of crap, along with this English 'class' thing, which again is used to abuse and isolate by those with other agendas.

We are all simply......people.

I don't give a monkey's if someone's singing an English folk song in their own accent, there is no ONE accent.

There is, however, only ONE race, and that is the Human Race.

So take you 'BNP propaganda' and place it wherever you so choose, but don't come shoving it at my door, because I've been there, done that, and I'm wearing the T Shirt with 'Fook Off!' on it.

:0)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 08:06 AM

I did vote,in fact because I live in Ireland and have proportional representation,I voted 1 to 9,and in the local elections.
my first vote was for the Irish Labour party,I did not vote for Fianna Fail,neither did I vote for any Fascist/racist party.
I cannot say I was very impressed with any of the candidates,But I still consider it important to vote,by not voting,you become responsible if a racist Fascist party becomes elected.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM

I know what fascism is - I have never personally experienced it, but I have friends who have. I also have friends who escaped to this country for fear of their lives from the fascist state where they lived.

Also I have always voted in every election since I was old enough to vote.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM

For what it's worth, I agree with Captain Birdseye's 14 Jun 09 - 06:25 AM post excluding his comment about British or English folk clubs-I exclude that portion of his comment only because I know too little about British or English folk clubs to agree or disagree with that comment.

Also, FWIW, Lizzie Cornish is my friend, and she's no racist. I agree with Lizzie's point that "The folk world has an element within it who actually feed the BNP". It's pm;s I would interpret Lizzie's "purity" description as folkies believing that traditional English folk music must meet their definitions and their standards and if it doesn't than it isn't really traditional English folk music. But-it seems to me-that every art form has an element who seek to strictly define what their art form is and how it should be presented and/or performed. That viewpoint/preference doesn't make those people racists.

Royston, I think that Lizzie's statement that the "Racist label gets thrown at innocent people" for liking cricket and roast beff" (beef) can be true simply because-as it has been often noted on this thread and other threads on this subject-the BNP is trying to expropriate elements of traditional English culture and trying to twist and use use people's fondness traditional English culture for their (the BNP's) hateful purposes. Because the BNP twist a genuine appreciation for traditional English culture around for their purposes, some people can think that Lizzie's comment "reads like BNP propaganda". But that doesn't mean that what Lizzie wrote is in fact BNP propaganda.

Also Royston, I agree that people are racist "who blame or hate non-white or immigrant communities for irrational reasons." I also agree that personal "Racism is... a symptom of individual anger, insecurity and ignorance." There is also "'institutional racism' describes societal patterns that have the net effect of imposing oppressive or otherwise negative conditions against identifiable groups on the basis of race or ethnicity." http://civilliberty.about.com/od/raceequalopportunity/g/inst_racism.htm

On other threads I have commented about Lizzie's statement that "There is, however, only ONE race, and that is the Human Race." I understand the spirit of what she is saying, and agree that this is the bottom line. However, I wish to say for the record that such a stance can be used to support institutional racism. That said, I don't intend to go further into a discussion of the whats and hows and whys and whos of racism on this thread.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:06 AM

Thank you, Azizi. x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:13 AM

I'm sorry. The "It's pm;s" in my preceding posts is a result of poor editing on my part. I was going to write that "it's through pms that I have come to know Lizzie and quite a number of other posters to this thread. But I thought I was deleting that sentence because I recognized that whether or how I've developed relationships with Mudcatters in addition to exchanging comments with them on this public forum is really not pertinent to this discussion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM

Oh, we don't mind, Azizi, no worries. xx :0)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

You're welcome, Lizzie.

Now, as the American television host Ed Sullivan used to say "On with the show".


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:23 AM

greg stephens

If people want to run a white folk club, let them put that on the poster.

Remind me, Greg, how many of The Boat Band are black? The only people on this thread equating British with white are you and Folknacious.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:38 AM

"Getting off your arses and doing something about it counts, going out and voting counts.
How many of you people actually know what fascism is? Then out of them, how many went out and voted in the recent election?"

Yes, I do know what fascism is - it's what my father fought against in WW2. Yes, I did vote in the recent elections and the fascists got in in my constituency. Yes, I will continue to oppose them in word an deed every step of the way. Smugness is people who sit on their arses and criticise others who CARE about that these bastads are doing.

Oh, and YES, our disapproval does count and WTF are you to say different?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM

Folknacious

Sheesh, why are you lot so f***ing [i]dense[/i]!

I know it's not very British to boast of one's own acheivements but could I just point out that it was me that first drew attention to the fact that the BNP were selling folk records through their Excalibur marketing arm in this post which I think I can claim as one of the roots of Folk Against Fascism.

Perhaps you would then like to have a read through my posts on the
BNP: What would you do? thread.

I notice that you did't take part in either of those threads or any other thread about the BNP until you started this one.

Then you might like to consider whether I might be someone who does have a rather better idea of what he is talking about than you and that I don't need to justify my musical taste to you or anyone else.

After that perhaps we can get together to work on keeping the B4$%!4$£ds out of folk music.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 10:04 AM

Am I alone in despairing over the fact that there can be so much dissent among people who believe in a common goal i.e. neutralising the BNP?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM

Kampervan wrote
"Am I alone in despairing over the fact that there can be so much dissent among people who believe in a common goal i.e. neutralising the BNP?"


Sadly, the whole history of left-wing politics in the UK suggests that those involved spend more time and energy on nit-picking internecine rows than addressing the ghastly right-wing horrors that they oppose.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 11:49 AM

Kampervan and Vic Make an important point. One which has frustrated me for years. Solidarity wins in the end. "The more we get together..."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

"The folk world has an element within it who actually feed the BNP, imo, perhaps without realising they're doing it, because they almost demand PURITY.

Purity of song
Purity of accent
Purity of music

ALL *must* be English, in the *right* way"

For all the times you've made this claim and been asked to provide ANY evidence for it, you have been absolutely unable to. So can you please stop trying to stir the crap, and please, please, if you have nothing more constructive to contribute, just leave this project alone. Honestly, it is much more important than gratuitous point-scoring, and it really isn't about you.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM

There is an analogy that takes place here in Southern Georgia, US. They have "Southern Re-enactment" groups that purport to teach a narrow history of the Confederacy. These groups are often filled with mis-information which I suspect is also the case with the BNP supporters of their kind of "folk". The antidote to the problem is more study and interest in the roots of English music that can be shown to dispel the propaganda mechanism that is employed by the BNP (who probably really doesn't care about British folk music and is more concerned with their political ideology). For this reason, it's a good thing that British people are taking an active interest in the music of their cultural heritage and explaining it for the edification of the public.

Another analogy would be the hyped-up interest in Wagner's "volk" in Hitler's Germany.
Real German folk music was not really addressed. Songs like "Die Gedanken Sind Frei"
which have a venerable history was not part of that agenda.

Ruth Archer's approach seems reasonable to me. Educate and inform the public about all aspects of British music and you will expose the BNP for what they are, ideological right-wingers and white supremacists who really don't give a damn for British folk music.

I see as a corollary to this idea of folk music to show the effects of British folk music in
other lands and cultures as well. I was impressed with Micheal Flatley in the Comhaltas
convention in St. Louis a while back sharing the stage with African-American tap experts showing the connection between clogging and step-dancing from two different cultures.
It illuminated the role of Irish step-dancing.

Similar juxtapositions of cultural expressions could be applied to British folk music culture.

As we know on Mudcat, many variants of songs that originated in the British Isles found roots in other cultures. Folklorists and collectors are aware of the unifying aspects of their work. The more you dig deeply into one culture, the better capable you can share it with another with the same enthusiasm and knowledge.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: PaulF
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM

"Sadly, the whole history of left-wing politics in the UK suggests that those involved spend more time and energy on nit-picking internecine rows than addressing the ghastly right-wing horrors that they oppose."



Hardly surprising Vic Smith, after all, socialism is the politics of envy, which instead of bringing people up to the same level, drags them all DOWN to the same level. It was OK, and right on for Arthur Scargill and John Prescott to have Jaguar cars, but perish the thought that anyone they consider right wing should enjoy the same privileges!
Anyway, why do they assume that it is only the left wing who are against the BNP?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM

Yes Vic

There has been a lot of bickering (here and in other threads)about what seems to me to be "side issues" more than the objectives of the F.A.F. facebook group (nearly 2200 members in so few days).

Do we all need reminding that what we are objecting to is the highjacking of the art form we love and contribute to by the BNP?

That is as far as it goes for me. I don't care what others feel provided we all agree that on this fundimental issue.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM

It would be vastly in the interests of clarity to leave Riverdance out of it. It's nothing to do with Irish trad (whether real or fake) and its not really very much to do with the BNP's own "music" (which consists of trashy ditties about how nice the English countryside would be if it weren't for immigrants spoiling the view).

It's about this vile bunch of thugs expropriating English music, not just trad but singer-songwriter and (quite extensively) neo-classical. Just take a look at the Excalibur catalogue, much of which is in there without the artists' permission or knowledge. True, they too don't seem to actually know what English music is, including, haphazardly a smattering of Scottish, American and European recordings. However, the point is that the BNP is attempting to claim support from performers who have not given it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM

"I was impressed with Micheal Flatley in the Comhaltas
convention in St. Louis a while back sharing the stage with African-American tap experts showing the connection between clogging and step-dancing from two different cultures.
It illuminated the role of Irish step-dancing."

I wonder if they talked about William Henry Lane, "Master Juba", at all? He was a free black man who grew up in New York in the 1840s or 50s. He learned Irish dancing from both the Irish in his neighbourhood and from other black dancers, and beat Irish dancing champions when dancing jigs and reels. The dance style he evolved is thought to be one of the main roots of tap dance.

He died really young, but not before coming to England and dancing in front of Queen Victoria.

An interesting footnote is that, at this time, white men always portrayed blacks on stage. It was the height of minstrelsy. So when Master Juba performed, he had to black up. The world was not ready to see a real live black man on stage.

Not sure that any of this is much to do with Folk Against Fascism, but an interesting example of different cultures collaborating to create something brand new.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:01 PM

The Snail, a few post back, asked how many of the Boat Band were black. I am not sure what point he is seeking to make by this question. Anyway, I will point out that if you have a look at the Boat Band's Myspace page, you will find three out of the six recordings that we have up there feature black musicians.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:05 PM


Not sure that any of this is much to do with Folk Against Fascism


I'm quite certain that neither Vic's falling out with the SWP in a fit of Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder (© V I Lenin) nor the Pasty's irrational hatred of everyone who's signed up to FaF (2,225 in under a week) have much bearing on it either. But that's where it is, growing and unstoppable.

Well done, Lilian Bellamy.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM

Cin cin, darling.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: fairplay
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:22 PM

Does the FAF disassociate itself from those who advocate violence against the BNP?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:32 PM

This subscriber to FAF does not support violence from any quarter.

Which side of the fence is Fairplay sat?

dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:39 PM

Violence against the BNP brings us down to their level - so I removed posts from the FAF facebook page which celebrated the egging of Nick Griffin. I don't see such acts as particularly constructive or helpful.

Of course, this rational approach has not stopped members of the BNP hijacking the internet identities of me and several other members of the group, and sending us nasty personal messages. These are the actions of bullyboys and thugs.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: fairplay
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:47 PM

Ruth

Then why use Bragg as an icon on your Youtube site?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:56 PM

"Hardly surprising Vic Smith, after all, socialism is the politics of envy, "
Which is, of course exactly the sort of stupid, sweeping statements that right wing reactionaries love to make because. In their selfishness and self-absorption, they simply can understabnd altruism(hey, if you can make sweeping statements, so can I). I envy very few people (except Martin Simpson - talented bastard!). What I look for is a fairer society that values the individual, but not by how much they can earn or how many possessions they have. Yes, I've been there - big car, big house, six figure salary - the works, but all it brought was a disaffected lifestyle. Now I have a different attitude whereby people are more important than possessions.

Personally I despise both Prescott and Scargill (for different reasons). Your statement merely shows that you are totally ignorant (or simply jealous) of the liberating effect that true socialism brings.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM

Dear Fairplay,

Would you mind explaining this for us?

It is a video of the BNP's national press officer (apparently known as "the doc" as he has a PHD).


In this video he explains that Black people are genetically inferior to white people.

He tells us this to explain why they are more disposed to crime etc.

Heres the video


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

By the way, I seem to have managed to conscript 4 non cattters onto the FAF facebook group.


It must therefore be a very good idea.   :-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM

greg stephens

The Snail, a few post back, asked how many of the Boat Band were black. I am not sure what point he is seeking to make by this question.

I was trying to make light of your absolutely outrageous comment about white folk clubs. Why are you playing into the BNP's hands by promoting the idea that an interest in British traditional music equates to being a white racist?

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM

"Then why use Bragg as an icon on your Youtube site?"

what youtube site?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM

"what youtube site? "

That's what I thought

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:47 PM

Excuse me, but I wasn't saying complaining about the FAF idea. I think it's a good one and hope it goes well. Read my post again, there is nothing there *against* what you're doing.

I was merely saying that some in the English folk world could do with looking at the 'purity' aspect of what they believe, and compare it to others who also believe in purity. It's what the BNP love to latch on to.

And yup, they're nasty little b*ggers ain't they when they come over to myspace/facebook pages etc. Always best to send them off with a hefty boot up their backsides, is what I find.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM

"I was merely saying that some in the English folk world could do with looking at the 'purity' aspect of what they believe,"

Despite being presented with lots of evidence to the contrary, you have never been able to say WHO these people are, what the purity actually consists of, and precisely how it manifests itself. Saying that this imagined zeal for "purity" (whatever it may mean) is feeding the BNP is both defamitory and untrue.

So please, Lizzie - just walk away and let it lie, because this is not an area that will be served by gratuitous attempts at point-scoring.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 03:32 PM

Myspace, sorry.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 03:37 PM

99.99% of what Billy Bragg has said over the years about nationalism, identity and the BNP is absolutely reflective of what FAF is trying to do.

He made 1 statement with which I personally would not wish to align the group.


I think we can forgive him that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 03:43 PM

the English folk revival,has many people to thank for its birth and continuance,including EFDSS, the Northunmbrian Pipers Society,EwanMaccoll,MartinCarthy,AlLoyd,Lou Killen,Bob Davenport,all of these people ,have promoted ENGLISH TRADTIONAL MUSIC,[Ewan promoted Scottish music as well]all these people would be shocked if their interest in British[the folkmusic of the islands of Britain] was construed as making them white racists.
Greg Stephens,you are playing into the hands of the BNP.
we need to stop them claiming British folk music as theirs.
starting INTERNATIONAL FOLK CLUBS is an excellent idea.
but trying to tell existing folk club organisers what they should do,is undemocratic and unreasonable.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

Lox. "It is a video of the BNP's national press officer (apparently known as "the doc" as he has a PHD)."

I remember seeing that clip of Phil Edwards when it was first broadcast and thinking "what an absolute schmuck". The idea that Africa never created any great civilisations is a bit of a laugh to anyone who has ever studied African political systems. Likewise, the idea that Africa represented a safe haven, where the mind of man had less need to develop is ludicrous. Perhaps someone could point out to this eejit that the brains of Neanderthals were just as large as ours. I don't remember them producing any great civilisations either. Besides, which, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the thinking of modern biologists is that the brainpower of the human race reached its present form during the very earliest stages of our development as homo sapiens; when our forebears were forced down from the trees by climatic change, and were forced to compete with more powerful but less smart animals than we.

OK., maybe I've been overdosing on Robert Winston, but as a sociology graduate, I do have some understanding of the limitations of IQ measurement; and some appreciation of the difficulties of applying intelligence tests cross culturally.

Come to think of it, if this geezer is right, and intelligence really does represent some sort of inverse measure of criminality, then the large number of thugs and criminals in the ranks of the BNP supports the view that their average member must be as thick as two short planks.

But it's that bit about black people never having produced a Mozart or a Dickens which showed up this alleged intellectual for the ethnocentric moron he really is. European art forms are the products of literate cultures. That means the work of Dickens, Mozart, or any other European creative artist, roughly from about the time of the Norman conquest, is frozen. We know precisely what they created and what it sounds or looks like, because it's written down. (I'm excepting visual art from the argument of course, but BNP bigots might care to ponder the effect which Benin bronzes had on early twentieth century painters.) But, remembering that Africa was historically non-literate, and nothing was written down, how can he "know" that that vast continent never contained anyone as intrinsically gifted as either of the two gentlemen he held up for comparison? All artistic output was non-literate once, and what little has survived indicates that much of it was rich indeed. To extend the geographic boundaries of the argument for a moment, has this gentleman ever heard of Homer, whose creative abilities were preserved purely because the non-literate epic bardic tradition, to which Homer belonged, happened to co-exist alongside a tradition of Greek literacy? How many African Homers have there been down through the ages, whose exegeses have been lost because nobody was there to write them down? Does he not realise that the pre-literate world was stuffed with the most astonishing poets, storytellers, praise singers and musicians? And quite a few of them were African.

For that matter, does he not realise that the compositional form par excellence, throughout the third world (including Africa), was one of spontaneous improvisation? And comparing that with written composition is like comparing chalk with cheese. I'm copying all my old vinyl to computer at the moment, and just by chance I've come to the section on West African griots. OK., we accept that Africa left us no formal musical compositions. But is there any way we can compare the improvisational talent of the best West African griots with the improvisatory abilities of composers like Mozart? We can't unfortunately, because, although improvisation was once a much favoured skill, and although we know that Mozart was a formidable performer in that field, the European tradition of improvisation died out before the invention of audio recording. But if he was as good as of any of the members of the Konte family, or Amadu Bansang Jobarteh, or Jali Nyama Suso, or for that matter as good as any number of black modern jazz players, then by heck, good he must have been.

BTW., Although the BNP membership list shows only 7 Phds, out of 12000 members, or about 0.058% of the total membership, I can't find the name of Phil Edwards among them. Does he really exist? And what I wonder was his Phd in?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 04:19 PM

People, any chance this thread can primarily be used to promote Folk Against Fascism, please?

The nitpicking and point scoring belong somewhere else. Let's at least pretend we can agree on this one thing (that we don't want fascist gangs appropriating folk music to serve their political ends) even if we disagree on everything else!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 04:41 PM

Someone asked why Billy Bragg is used as an icon on the MySpace page.
The Billy Bragg quote on the FAF page is one of several available clickable banners for the "Love Music, Hate Racism" campaign page. Other banners include quotes from Pete Doherty, Lethal Bizzle, Carl Barat, Shane MacGowan and Natty, but BB seemed the most obvious one to use on a UK folk page.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM

"Love Music Hate Racism" is an organisation set up to use music to counter fascism.It recently held a 20000 strong music and anti fascist carnival in Stoke [where the BNP has around 10 cllrs and which it regards as its stronghold ]. This Love Music Hate Racism event was young and multicultural and anti fascist.

Folk Against Fascism might consider teaming up with LMHR to promote a few antiracist gigs. Some eyes and ears might be opened on both sides of the folkie /non folkie divide.

LMHR is backed by quite a few trade unions and anti fascist groups like Unite Against Fascism.It is seen as the successor to Rock Against Racism which was particularly active in the late 1970s.

It would be great to see performers like Bellowhead on the same bill as the Asian Dub Foundation and Steel Pulse.
ifor


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM

It certainly would, Ifor - personally I'd like to see The King Blues at Cambridge, too! One festival stage where there isn't so much "divide" is the Left-Field at Glastonbury. Sadly I won't be there this year, but I really can't recommend it highly enough to anyone who is venturing to Pilton.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:21 PM

The Snail makes a most bizarre remark about me: "Why are you playing into the BNP's hands by promoting the idea that an interest in British traditional music equates to being a white racist?".
Now, why would I be promoting that idea, since (a) I have spent over forty years researching and playing traditional British music and (b)I am not a white racist.
I think you musdt ber thinking of some other chap. I have never made any such suggestion, or even anything remotely like it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM

Greg, a while back you said "If people want to run a white folk club, let them put that on the poster."

If you have any evidence that any folk club is operating a "Whites Only" policy, please name them now. I am confident that they will be ostracised by the wider folk community and I hope that they will be boycotted by any professional musicians who have a modicum of self respect.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:38 PM

Pete Doherty?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM

Ruth

Thanks for clarifying your position. I am not an apologist, still less a spokesperson for the BNP. What does concern me is the the UAF's militarisation of politics. Run by the SWP but financed by Labour, there are shades of Mugabe's Zimbabwe here.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:46 PM

Lizzie, another tenet that sees me well through life is "Never argue with a fool...other people eventually will have difficulty seeing which one is the fool."

If you think that there are people who see roast beef and cricket as "racist" then you need to put down the Daily Mail and find a less harmful comic to read.

Fred McCormick...do some research please and stop making the BNP look more credible. Their press officer uses "Dr. Phil Edwards" as a pseudonym. His real name is Stuart Russell and he runs a company that makes fireworks, which makes him an explosives expert (anyone else find this worrying?)

He does not have a PhD, he is not a doctor. Just another vile lying racist fascist agitator that must be exposed as such.

Hitler came to power by legal, democratic means. 'Nuff said.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:50 PM

People, please take a step back. We should be fighting them! You don't need to book anyone different. Just point out that the music showcased at your club is, by it's very nature, multi-cultural and inclusive. Stop the bastards from taking it over by pointing out that by supporting traditional music they are in fact supporting multi-ethnicity (is there such a word?) and, hopefuly, they will drop it liek a hot potato.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:08 PM

"Lizzie, another tenet that sees me well through life is "Never argue with a fool...other people eventually will have difficulty seeing which one is the fool."










Absolutely.














"If you think that there are people who see roast beef and cricket as "racist" then you need to put down the Daily Mail and find a less harmful comic to read."

I was told that to love the sight of cricket being played on village greens was to dream of an English idyll that no longer exists and therefore, it showed that I was racist. What a complete load of poppycock.

There was an excellent piece in the Daily Mail the other day, about the BNP, saying what absolute scum they are. Strange, for such a 'racist' paper. Still, being told that did at least shut 'The Daily Mail Reader' guest poster, up in the BNP thread.

Folk Against Facism:

Badges
T Shirts
Baseball Hats
Tankards
Things to stick on your guitar/mandolin/musical whatnot/morris dancer hat, clogs, bags, and/or various protruding body parts....
Posters (clever designs only)
Book marks
The dreaded Fridge Magnets
Cuddly toys, so the children get the message early on
Christmas cards
Birthday cards
Banners to put in/on your caravan/car/camel
With an English flag on and with flags from all around the world
CDs of anti-facist songs
Poetry books
Youtube videos
FAF at the RAH
........ad infinitum


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM

And while we're at it (worrying about the moral equivalence of the BNP and whether they should enjoy the same rights as other "democratic" groups) ponder on this.

Before 7/7/2005, the only non-Irish terrorist act in the UK were two deadly explosions in London perpetrated by BNP member David Copeland.

The largest seizure of explosive materials linked to terrorist intentions (including seizures related to Al Qaeda and IRA) was held by BNP members Robert Cottage and David Nelson. (Lancashire 2007)

Last week another BNP member and white supremacist (Ian Davison, Co. Durham) was arrested and the nerve-agent Ricin was found at his home.

The only reason the fascists haven't managed a terrorist atrocity is that they are much more fully infiltrated by the security services (thank God!).

"DeG", the mindblowing thing is that there are fellow "folkers" (whom I have always regarded as more intelligent and free-thinking than average) that could even contemplate the BNP as having a shred of legitimacy. Shame on us!!!!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:34 PM

So, to precis the closing remarks of a TV series that backtracked all of the people's on earth to their origins:-
'Wherever we've ended up in the world, we're all African under the skin'.

Bet the BNP didn't sponsor that one.

Focus on the real goal - defeat the fascist bigots.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 02:44 AM

Damn, where did that stray apostrophe come from?
It should have read
.....peoples...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 02:58 AM

I'm Phil Edwards!

No, really. That is actually my name. (I've even got a doctorate, although I hardly ever use the title.) Which made it particularly annoying for me when the BNP's former Press Officer decided to use that name as his pseudonym. (More here.)

Fortunately he was on the wrong side of the recent spat within the party, and is no longer Press Officer; he may not even be a member. Either way, he's not getting his name - or rather my name - in the papers any longer, and good riddance.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: fairplay
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 03:09 AM

Ruth

Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm glad you've disassociated yourself from the paramilitary politics of UAF. Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM

Phil,

Sorry for the embarressment. Turns out Press Officer Phil Edwards' real name is Stuart Russell and his daughter is one Julie Russell. Again, I can't find her name on the membership list, but she is apparently a hobnobber with Jean Marie Le Pen.

BTW., the BNP seems to shed recalcitrant members faster than a fox sheds fleas. Where on earth do they all go?


I'm Phil Edwards!

No, really. That is actually my name. (I've even got a doctorate, although I hardly ever use the title.) Which made it particularly annoying for me when the BNP's former Press Officer decided to use that name as his pseudonym. (More here.)

Fortunately he was on the wrong side of the recent spat within the party, and is no longer Press Officer; he may not even be a member. Either way, he's not getting his name - or rather my name - in the papers any longer, and good riddance.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM

Royston: "Fred McCormick...do some research please and stop making the BNP look more credible. Their press officer uses "Dr. Phil Edwards" as a pseudonym. His real name is Stuart Russell and he runs a company that makes fireworks"

Sorry if I wasn't up to speed with 'Phil Edwards' identity. Watching the BNP is like watching a pile of woodlice. You see one, then you see more. Then there's a whole festering mess of them. And they all look the same.

"Hitler came to power by legal, democratic means."

Not strictly true. It's true the nazis came to power in 1933 as the largest party, but not with an overall majority. And Hitler was made chancellor because the powersthatbe thought that would bring him into line. It didn't. Moreover, the only time the nazis acheived an overall majority was after Hitler's chancellorship, and after the nazis had slung all of their opponents in jail.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:42 AM

"Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association. "

LOL! How did you come to dream up that little gem? Support for UAF comes from a wide range of unions such as the NUT, NASWT, UNITE, The University and College Union, and other respected organisations. (Hey, it's those schoolteachers you have to watch out for - they can be a pretty violent lot!!!)

Right wing apologists like you who try to discredit anti-fascist organisations are exactly why I joined Folk Against Fascism.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:01 AM

Fair play

You have ignored the matter of "the Doc"

What is your response?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM

Vic Smith said:-

"those involved spend more time and energy on nit-picking internecine rows than addressing the ghastly right-wing horrors that they oppose."

I have to say that it looks to me as if Vic has summed it up nicely.

We know what BNP is about and we know why FAF was set up. Can we please keep our discussions on topic.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM

Last week another BNP member and white supremacist (Ian Davison, Co. Durham) was arrested and the nerve-agent Ricin was found at his home.

It's a haemagglutinin, not a nerve agent. The toxic syndrome it produces is a bit like meningitis or viper venom.

Not particularly easy stuff to use, which is why the military never adopted it. I don't suppose we'll ever be told what the BNP intended to do with it. I can think of one possibility which I'm keeping to myself.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 06:33 AM

Dave Earl

Can we please keep our discussions on topic.

I suppose I have to put my hand up as one of the most argumentative people on this thread but I think I have been on topic. I see little point in engaging with the BNP trolls; you're never going to persuade them of anything and it only gives them a platform.

"Brit Folk" is under threat from the BNP. As far as I am concerned, the best way of defending it is for as many people as possible who are not racists or fascists to sing it, play it, dance it or simply listen and watch. Folknacious's position that we should be embarrassed about British traditional music and that promoting it without sounding like the BNP manifesto was "Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult." struck me as giving in without a fight.

Greg is an excellent fellow whose particular thing is incorporating influences from diverse cultures into his music. I have heard the result and it is superb. (I have heard others try the same thing with rather lamentable results.) He seems intent on defending this position despite the fact that nobody is attacking it.

Where I do take issue with him is when he says -

To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues.

He seems to be suggesting that we should promote music we are not interested in purely to make a political statement. Sorry but no. My main motivation is the music. Within that context I will oppose racism.

I am also concerned that he is throwing out unspecific accusations of racism which can only damage the image of folk. I still don't know what he means by "If people want to run a white folk club...".

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 06:55 AM

Yes Bryan BUT.

What we want is to stop the BNP usurping traditional Music/Song/Dance for their political purposes.

What I think we need to do is carry on with our involvement in whatever our individual keenness is but be on watch for new supporters (?sponsors?)who could turn out to be the BNP in disguise. Who might later try to claim what you are doing is demonstrating the rightness of their policies.

What I think the thread should be about is how our various Clubs/Festivals/Dance sides are going to present a "Common Front" to resist the intrusion of BNP.

Thats certainly why I signed up to the Facebook thing.

I just don't think that the toing and froing that I see in this thread is going anywhere near achieving the above objective.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 07:37 AM

What would you have me do, Dave?

Bryan


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:04 AM

Well Bryan I suppose what we all need to do is formulate a common approuch to the potential intrusion by BNP and also kick up a stink about the CDs they are selling through the Exacibur site (have the artists given their consent?)

I'm sorry but I don't think the bickering that's going on is going to help.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:33 AM

Well Bryan I suppose what we all need to do is formulate a common approuch to the potential intrusion by BNP

I've offered my suggestion. I don't much like the others.

and also kick up a stink about the CDs they are selling through the Exacibur site (have the artists given their consent?)

As I pointed out to Folknacious it was me that first drew attention to that and, no, the artists have not given their consent.

Bryan


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:45 AM

Well I am rather amused by the BNP's latest little spasm. They have now created on facebook (and used to post to the FaF group) a "Richard Bridge" identity using a reverse of Robin Loxley's picture overlaid with a BNP slogan. How silly do they look?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Surreysinger at work
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM

Dave - re the CDs being sold through Excalibur - both Dame Vera Lynn's and the folk ones, it's already well established that the artists (on the whole) are only too well aware of the fact that their work is being sold through the BNP website. However, it has also been established that there is nothing they can do about it for copyright reasons, and their consent or otherwise to the sale of these CDs (which I believe are on sale elsewhere) is neither needed or legally required. There were press articles back in February about both Dame Vera Lynn and Phil Beer and Steve Knightley's problems in this area, and their concern over the situation (sadly I can't link to them while here at work, due to the antiquated software on this machine!!)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:10 AM

Snail said: it was me that first drew attention to blah blah blah

Not it wasn't. It's been a fRoots discussion subject for many a year. Here's one:

BNP move in on folk music
which refers back specifically to:
Neil Mackay in the Grauniad
and Emma Hartley"s Torygraph blog.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM

I think Bryan meant in this thread.

But we should not be scoring points off each other. There are much wider issues that should have our attention.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

There are much wider issues that should have our attention

Like reading the background in the links provided, for a start. For instance, the "English Country Music Band" (which is actually the core of a well-known ceilidh band) did a one-off recording session for which they were paid a standard fee. They weren't given the option of any rights to how their music was distributed and didn't know about its inclusion before being told about it. They can't do anything.

One lesson is to read contracts very, very carefully.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM

The fact that the BNP were taking an interest in folk music has, indeed, been known for a long time. It was on a Mudcat thread on the subject that I posted my dsicovery of the Excalibur sales three days before the fRoots thread that Diane quotes was started. Neither of the articles she quotes make any reference to the sale of other peoples CDs through Excalibur.

If someone had reported on it before, all well and good but my post did seem to set the ball rolling.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM

But it's that bit about black people never having produced a Mozart or a Dickens which showed up this alleged intellectual for the ethnocentric moron he really is.

Drop a Mozart or a Dickens into the Serengeti or the rain forests of New Guinea and see how long they would survive. Any New Guinean child can name every single plant and animal in his environment. I know I can't. In case you ever have need to debate against the racist argument of Eurocentric superiority, read "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM

"One lesson is to read contracts very, very carefully."

Yes it seems that BNP have got away with this because artists were perhaps not sufficiently aware of what they had permitted in their contracts.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM

"But it's that bit about black people never having produced a Mozart or a Dickens which showed up this alleged intellectual for the ethnocentric moron he really is."

Yes I agree but that is not what FAF is about. We want to stop B.N.P. high jacking our art form for their political purposes.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM

Snail is beginning to sound like the "discovery" of Lots Of Fans by a person from Sidmouth.

The fRoots thread which mentions Excalibur (among other aspects) wasn't the first, only the most recent and I couldn't be arsed to flag up more. Do your own searching. There have been murmurings and mutterings about musical expropriation by the nasty right for decades. Nick Griffin's been lurking about at kRusby gigs for years, David Hannam's been doing skinhead barbecues tp promote his ditties and suspicious waxings have been on display at wifty-wafty heritage shops for a very long time, and widely complained about.
Importantly, FaF will be a unified front to get something done.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM

Your lawyer is your FRIIIEEEENNNNDDDD!

And wasn't Beethoven black?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

Not sure, but this chap was.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM

"Ruth

Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm glad you've disassociated yourself from the paramilitary politics of UAF. Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association"

DMR, your anti socialist slip is showing sunshine. Anyone who disagrees with your VERY questionable position is considered too radical etc, etc...blah blah blah!, which is laughable when you consider some of the tactics of the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM

One of my heroes is Louis Armstrong who changed the face of popular music in America,
something Mozart could not have done.

A case can be said that White People have been responsible for brutality and mass murder if you wanted to generalize as the BNP seems to do. Hitler and Stalin were both white.

We can dismiss the arguments of the BNP easily and their trumped-up views of "sociobiology" which are grossly distorted. They don't understand that racial classifications are not given important emphasis by social biologists and that they are arbitrary.

In fact, many anthropologists believe that "heterosis", the mixing of races produce a more resilient and healthy offspring than between two of the same race which might be closer to the degeneration found when close cousins marry.

The important thing to remember here is that there are all kinds of misconceptions about race and its relationship to culture which entail different value systems. The idea that a Darwinian concept of "natural selection" in race-based cultures is scientifically specious.
Darwin never implied anything of the kind. Even "survival of the fittest" is not a quote from Darwin but from Herbert Spencer, an English philosopher. The BNP seem to embrace Lamark in a view that cultural traits are inherited genetically and this has been disprovable by Mendel and other scientific discoveries.

In short, BNP is full of crap.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM

theleveller

"Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association. "

LOL! How did you come to dream up that little gem? Support for UAF comes from a wide range of unions such as the NUT, NASWT, UNITE, The University and College Union, and other respected organisations. (Hey, it's those schoolteachers you have to watch out for - they can be a pretty violent lot!!!)

Right wing apologists like you who try to discredit anti-fascist organisations are exactly why I joined Folk Against Fascism.

--------------

"Fairplay" didn't dream up of that by him or herself, it is the routine propaganda line by the BNP. As such, "Fairplay" is playing the role of a fascist apologist.

I've been concerned about the BNP's wish to encroach on what they call "indigenous British music" for some while. They don't seem to have put much serious work into it so far, but with the funds that will be flowing into their coffers from the European Parliamentary game we have to assume that all areas of their activity and propaganda will be increased.

Any more news on a Folk Against Fascism website? I personally don't do Facebook or Myspace (even if Myspace have resolutely refused to delete an old profile).


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM

Andrew Wigglesworth. "I've been concerned about the BNP's wish to encroach on what they call "indigenous British music" for some while. They don't seem to have put much serious work into it......."

BNP MEPs have already pledged 10% of their annual salaries to the English Fair fund, which is something they've set up to help "local communities" celebrate St. Georges Day.

If you look at their Activists Handbook (downloadable from the BNP website) it lists all kinds of activities which activists are supposed to engage in. They include instigating/helping with calendar customs, joining residents associations, starting community patrols, litter picks, and providing help for old people.

They regard all these activities as "image building". I'd regard it as window dressing. In practice, though, the BNP don't seem to engage in any of these things and it's likely there aren't enough party activists at the moment to do anything but fulminate against Muslims. It's possible therefore, that if their membership starts to grow significantly, and once they've got their hands on this EU cash, they'll start to take on some of these other activities. That, I think is when they'll try and muscle in on the folk revival.

If they do, send the bastards away with a collective flea in their ears.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM

Fred, are you disagreeing with me?

No, that's not meant to be an "point scoring" comment since I think that you're expanding upon the point that I was making... but leaving off the "so far" from your quote of my comment completely changes it's context.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

And wasn't Beethoven black?

He probably is now.

I'll get my coat on the way out...

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Trev
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM

Many dont object to the BNP because of its litterpicking activities; they are reviled because of their disgusting racism ,fascism and general thuggishness.
They can try to window dress their policies all they like but they are still the same old nazi thugs,bigots and racists.
If they had their way they would attempt to deport the non white population of this country and would plunge this country into a race war or apartheid style regime.
Can you imagine BNP representatives as school governors or as NHS board members?It doesn't bear thinking about.
The ones I bumped into recently were a disgraceful bunch.One wore his Enoch Powell Tshirt with pride beneath his jacket,another was filming anti fascists for the Redwatch site and a third had his bald head covered in swastika tattoos. What an awful shower!
trev


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM

Trev, Don't put ideas into thier heads. it is bad enough that they have elected councillors and euro MPs


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:24 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnpJU31HM0&feature=related.
please watch this video and rate it 5 stars,it is a response to muslim demographics.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM

Yes, please do follow Dick's link to that video.....

One of the things that supporters of the British folk scene will have to do to make the entirely laudable Folk Against Fascism movement entirely credible is to make sure that its own house is in order. If you follow the subject of the discussion that Dick Miles and I have been having over on another Mudcat thread - Boring Folk Day - you will find that I think that we have some way to go in this.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM

On the subject of Mozart etc ...

The european musical tradition has focussed more on harmony . The African musical tradition focussed more on rhythm.

There has never been anything in Europe to rival the complex syncopation and polyrhythms of Africa.

I would love to take any BNP mozart fan to the Gambia and watch them try to conceptualize and learn the complexity of their music.

Then we would travel down the west coast of Africa through Ghana and Nigeria on our way to South Africa to discover that the depth and variety of subsaharan african music is endless - and not something that Mozart ever conceived of.

But being ignorant, "the doc" wouldn't have a clue about that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM

I just read the following blog comments about people of color reading historical novels and plays and feeling nostalgic about the past:

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/15/nostalgia-a-sport-for-the-privileged/#comments

"@Wendi: "being privileged during one time may consist of completely different things than it does now and from say X country's perspective."

Back in Mediterranean classical times, blond Germanic types were stereotyped as stupid, ferocious savages while dark-skinned "Ethiopians" were supposed to be clever, but overly civilized and effete. The idea was that the hotter your climate, the smarter you were, but the more cowardly. Hey, it makes about as much sense as most of our modern-day stereotypes."
-Posted by atlasien ; Jun 2009 at 4:17 pm ¶

**

..."Actually, it was BETTER to be black in England in the 17th Century than in the 18th or 19th. There are a number of accounts of African visitors to London who were important personages–diplomats, tradesmen, ambassadors–who were treated with a combination of exoticism and respect. The slave trade had not yet become as entrenched in the English economy as it would in later years. So the association of "black/African" with "inferior/slave" had not yet become an established way of thinking. Shakespeare's Othello offers a good "timestamp" of the moment; sure, some characters say racist and ugly things about him, but he has risen to a high position in the army, has the respect of the Senate, and Desdemona's love for him is unquestioned in the play.

Even 30-40 years later, a character like Othello would have been impossible for an English playwright to conceive."
-Posted by jp; 15 Jun 2009 at 5:56 pm ¶

-snip-

I know very little about the way Ethiopian people or Germanic people were portrayed in Mediterranean classical times. And I hadn't thought about Shakespeare and his characterization of a high ranking Black man with an interracial marriage. And I read Othello so long ago that I can't remember the "racist and ugly things[that people in that play said] about him". I'm wondering how the BNP deals with this play. But they probably ignore anything that they can't use to their advantage.

Is there some way that this information-particularly the part about Othello could be mentioned to the advantage of the goals of Folk Against Fascism or the (broader?) goals of whoever/whatever organizations are interested in fostering a society that is much less racist than England was in the 18th century, 19th century, 20th century, and than England is now in the 21st century? For starters I'm thinking about how discussions could held to consider how Black people and other People of Color (including people from India) have been considered and depicted in English historical documents, literature, and music and why we (People of Color) have been/are portrayed that way and then and now.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:48 AM

Vic Smith

make sure that its own house is in order.

All very well, Vic, but how do we decide what is acceptabe? According to Folknacious If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. which seems to imply that the very characteristics that define traditional music make it racist. OH MY GOD! Walter Pardon was WHITE! We mustn't sing his songs or they'll think we're BNP supporters!

How far do we go? Is this acceptable?

Bryan Creer (Colonel, Nrs, retired)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM

For "Nrs" read "Mrs". Messed up my own joke. It's the way you tell 'um.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM

With respect Snail, your posts on this thread are becoming increasingly unconstructive IMO. Perhaps those who enjoy indulging in the same old snippery, would consider taking it elsewhere? There are people on this thread who really are trying to be constructive. I for one am interested in hearing their contributions, rather than the usual petty bickering over who said what when and how.

The music the BNP are targeting, is what we would collectively generally recognise (though the specific criteria which determine what 'it' is, might be debatable - THAT is a side issue) to be "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles."

For the purposes of the awareness raising campaign, the music 'under threat' is the music that we need to be discussing stratagies of dissociating from right-wing propaganda. The difficulty is in extricating English music from the dangers of association to agendas promoted by rascist groups. That is why we must be careful about the language we use. Because poorly expressed wording can be misconstrued - including *willfully* so. As indeed we see all the time on Mudcat...

It is in that context, which I read Folknacious' quote.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM

Please keep to the subject. I read this thread several times a day and it is suffering from the usual mud drift. Let's stop the bickering and point scoring, yes you are all very clever, but I suspect too much time on your ands.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:46 AM

From: greg stephens - PM
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures? I have spent various chunks of my life recording the music of various immigrant/refugee/asylum seeker people in this country, because I love folk music basically. To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. The politics is the personal.
Subject: RE: Boring Folk Day
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:25 AM

here is one suggestion that I think would use music in a progressive way.
the English government should subsidise English /Asian music clubs, which have a booking policy of equally shared TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY music,from English and Asian backgrounds.
music can be a great way of breaking down barriers.

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Subject: RE: Boring Folk Day
From: GUEST,Silas - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:30 AM

"here is one suggestion that I think would use music in a progressive way.
the English government should subsidise English /Asian music clubs, which have a booking policy of equally shared TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY music,from English and Asian backgrounds.
music can be a great way of breaking down barriers. "

Completely bonkers. Are you being serious?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM

Which bits are you quoting? Which bits are your own? Which bits are bonkers? It is rather difficult to tell.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM

YES,
I am serious,and I think the government has a responsibilty,to help integration,and furthermore the English government,and also local arts councils have a responsibilty to have an international outlook.
In my opinion, They should encourage folk promoters,with subsidies/grants,to encourage a booking policy of 50 per cent english traditional,and 50 percent traditional/contemporary asian music.that doesnot mean that I am against folkclubs who wish to have a different booking policy,
the two should be able to coexist together.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM

greg ,
cant you read,there are three posts,the first is yours the second mine and the third, guest silas,all clearly headed.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM

Well captain, I'm not altogether certain that 'integration' is the right way to go. In fact, I think it is the wrong way to go.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:06 AM

Cross-cultural (especially youth) folk musical projects - especially in cities with high levels of immigrant cultures, is a perfectly sound and sensible idea IMO.
A space for kids to both learn about, exchange, and forge fusions of, their own different traditional musics.
Can't see any problem with the suggestion myself. And while we all debate this stuff, in the spirit of err 'positivity', I hardly see just calling an idea 'bonkers' very useful..


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM

Well, bonkers is as bonkers does.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:10 AM

Oops, now I'm somewhat misinterpreting things The Cap'n said! Eh oh!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM

It would make Mudcat vastly easier to read, and make arguments less likely to go in the wrong direction, if it was easier to change bits of text into different colours, or bold or italic. Then it wouild clear when the Cap'n is quoting, and when he is writing as himself. Writing an email, you can change it instantly as you wish. Writing on Mudcat, you have to understand some weird computer stuff first,which many of us find difficult to master.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:26 AM

Andrew Wigglesworth. "Fred, are you disagreeing with me?"

No. I'm just trying to explain that their present inactivity in folk music, and in other areas, probably stems from a lack of willing participants. Present BNP membership stands at around 13,000, of which only 250 are listed as activists, and they are the ones who are supposed to be litter picking, decorating old peoples houses etc., as well as running local branches.

If, God forbid, the BNP ever becomes a mass party, that is when they'll start organising corporate activities along the lines promoted in the Acitists Handbook. Can't you just envisage it? BNP Youth camps, with healthy Aryan members sitting around camp fires, singing suitably doctored Aryan folk songs. BNP decoration teams. 'You can have your house painted any colour you want as long as it's white.' BNP litter picks. A couple of dozen blue eyed blonde haired Aryans with bin bags and mechanical grabbers singing the John Tyndall song and chanting Heil Griffin as they go.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:44 AM

well i go away for one day and i have to spend an hour just catching up!!!

FRED, you ideas are scary but if the BNP get their way i don't think it would take thm long to get like that.

as for 50/50 grants, i have heard somewhere that U.K festivals get more funding if they book foriegn artists or groups(not foreign in a bad way) i can't beleive i just had to quantify the word foreign.

i think the only way to stop them infiltrating folk clubs and culture is to keep a freindly eye on strangers,especially if they happen to be recording the performance..it's a sad world when we have to be suspious of a new face.

GREG, your' idea of making colours and text easier is welcomed, i have had it explained to me but still can't figure it out,even when i write it in differnet colours in a new page it won't transfer. you are not alone!!!!

so how else do we fight without becoming preachy? i have no idea, but to know that there are so many people out there that feel the same as i do, makes me feel that now anything is possible.
i haven't been on the FaF yet, does anyone know how the merch situation is going? i can't wait to get to do something possative instead of bitching about this problem.

take care all

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM

If I were from the UK, I don't know that I would be in agreement regarding a proposal that the English government provide grants to folk clubs that have a booking policy of "50 per cent english traditional,and 50 percent traditional/contemporary asian music. Once you start doing percentages, then "folk" (meaning "people") will start arguing about how the percentages were figured out-for instance, instead of 50/50 what if some people argue for 70/30 or 60/40? What would the percentages be based on?

And, for the sake of helping me (and maybe others)correctly understand this line of the discussion, what is meant by the term "Asian" in the context of that suggestion?

Does "Asian" used here mean the same thing as it does in the USA-people who are of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or other ancestries from that geographical area of the world? Or does "Asian" in that comment mean the same thing as "BME"-a term which means Black, Minority Ethnic (which I just learned from this thread or another recent Mudcat thread)?

I hasten to say that the meaning of the term does not matter to me in the context of the suggestion which I can't support since I don't live in England/Great Britain/the United Kingdom. But I'm just wanting to make sure that I'm correctly interpreting what that referent means.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:50 AM

Crow Sister

With respect Snail, your posts on this thread are becoming increasingly unconstructive IMO.

Then, perhaps, I am not expressing myself very clearly. I am in (almost) complete agreement with your second and third paragraphs. The "almost" comes from the quote "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles.". Nobody stands up in a folk club and says "This is from the singing of Walter Pardon. It is specifically not immigrant folk music."

Folknacious's attitude strikes me as dangerously wrong headed. You say "That is why we must be careful about the language we use. Folknacious says that it's all but impossible to get it right without running close to the BNP manifesto. Which essentially means "Don't do it." The BNP will have no such inhibitions so, if we follow that policy, they will be the only ones singing British songs and playing British tunes. (Well, English anyway. I don't thing the Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish or Manx will give up their music so easily.)

The only reason I quoted it again was because Vic seemed to be taking up the same idea. (It might help you to know that Vic and I have known each other for going on for forty years. He's not someone I'm going to snipe at.) As for me not being constructive, apart from Folknacious's spectacular progress from "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music" to ,"close to the BNP manifesto", nobody has come up with any examples of dodgy language or offered examples of how to do it properly.

The solution I have offered is that as many people as possible who are demonstrably not racists and fascists should sing, play, dance, listen to and watch the music. Nobody has responded to that.

If you have anything constructive to offer, I'll be glad to listen.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM

I meant to say that besides what the percentages would be, I'm not sure that I would be supportive of the idea that folk clubs receive any grants to integrate their performance bookings unless those folk clubs are publicly supported and not private organizations.

But, again, I say this knowing next to nothing about English folk clubs so maybe I shouldn't have posted anything about this line of the discussion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM

"publicly supported" meaning "receiving government funding".

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that while I support the mission of the FaF, (being an American) I should stay out of this discussion mostly because there's too much about the cultures that I don't know and understand. I'm just speaking for me and not anyone else who is not from the UK.

Because of that conclusion, from now on I'll be lurking and not posting to this thread.

Best wishes,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM

as matter of fact,I am in favour of encouraging all traditional contemporary folk music as well as English.
As the BNP hostilty seems primarily to be anti muslim,it would seem a good place to start,in an attempt to break down barriers,and build friendship.
yes, I know some Asian people are not muslim,but there has to be a starting point.
50 /50 booking policy,50 per cent english , 50 per cent muslim choice,if two parties are to integrate,it has to be[IMO] a two way equal process,so if a club books a guest artist,40 weeks of the year,20 English performers 20 asian performers.
However there is no reason,why a promoter should not apply,for grants and book Chinese and English performers,on a fifty/FIFTY per cent ratio.THE WHOLE OBJECT OF THE EXERCISE BEING EXPOSING TWO MUSIC CULTURES TO ONE ANOTHER.
I am not against money being given to clubs that book purely English traditional music,or purely Chinese traditional music.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

OK Bryan, sorry for becoming mildly intemperate - I find myself often frustrated with the arguments that I see on Mudcat - and feel that *here* is at least ONE place where folk enthusiasts could give that extra leeway to each other in support of a collectively endorsed cause.

So just to clarify: "The music the BNP are targeting, is what we would collectively generally recognise (though the specific criteria which determine what 'it' is, might be debatable - THAT is a side issue) to be "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles.""

Of course no-one describes their musical taste by 'what it's not' (ie in this instance 'non immigrant folk music) And yet THAT is the specific reason it's been targeted by the BNP. Because to a Nationalists eyes (even if they hate music), it is 'pure and unadultarated'. It is in the eyes of a right-wing Nationalist, not valuable for what it IS as such, so much as for what it can be defined as NOT being.

So, I mean that the threat is being very specifically directed AT traditional *indigenous* (thus by default white) music of Britain and England in particular, in contradistinction to 'British' folk musics belonging to immigrant cultures.

Simply because it is what it is, it becomes a possible 'banner' for those who would wave it to promote ends which could damage it badly by association.

Anyway, I'm sure we are all on the same side here. So I'm going to do my best to avoid tangling with contentious issues on this thread in future myself! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

Azizi
Does "Asian" used here mean the same thing as it does in the USA-people who are of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or other ancestries from that geographical area of the world?

Basically, yes ... though in Britain most of the people called "asian" will have originated from the Indian subcontinent as that's where most of our ties historically are.

:-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

Well Captain, I still can't see why or how this would work, or even if I would want it to.

With all due respect, i think the idea is nuts. There must be much better ways of spending tax payers money than this.

No, bugger the respect, the idea is barking mad.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

Azizi: on a technical point, your query about British usage of the word Asian. It is confusing, as people here use the word in two incompatible ways. (1) People from the continent of Asia(or with that racial/cultural backlground).
(2) People fron the Indian sub-continent (or with that racial/cultural background).


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM

as crow sister says the BNP believe that english folk is exactly that, " pure and unadulterated".. the very idea!!! yes alot of our music comes from english writers and singers but people are influenced in many ways throught international media. they might write them as set in england but the idea may have come from anywhere. do they not think that anywhere else may have had factories, woods river banks, mills? who knows where these stories started off before being sung instead.

take care all #jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

I had come across common ballad themes running across Europe, for example a Czech ballad that follows the story of the Two Magicians.

I would like to research how much folksolg is Bohemian in origin, and how much crossover their has been through Roma communities bu tthat I think should be another thread.

The term pure and unadulterated is totally meaningless in respect of folksong as the 'folk process' is a process of adulteration as songs migrate from community to community, and at the point of collection we don't know how much adulteration has already taken place.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Just a bit of light relief from the heavier side of the thread. My mate Dave and I went to a multi-cultural event in Salford a couple of years back. It was at Peel Park for those that know it - for those that do not it is a nice venue but also houses an art gallery and museum to give you an idea of the general 'feel'. It was very pleasent but, to be honest, quite dull. We all sat and sipped a glass of Chardonay while watching showcased acts from recent immigrant communities. We politely clapped and when it finished we wended our way over to the Crescent public house. Which is where the real integration started:-)

After a few pints of very fine assorted real ales we were amidst the most amazing music session I had ever come across. It was definitely not just the beer either. We had a Bosnian guitarist, a Polish accordian player, a fiddler from somewhere I could not pronounce, a couple of Somali percusionists, an opera singer from Russia and beyond that it all gets a little vague. Living proof, if anyone needs it, that music is the true international language. I am preety sure there were no facists around:-)

On the subject of funding for ethnic minority (do we still use that term?) performers. Why not indeed? If it helps us break those barriers and repels the invasion of the B(NP)ody snatchers then I am all for it. I am as sure as I can be that it will not be to the detriment of more traditional clubs. In fact, I am convinced that a few clubs showcasing other talents will be a good gateway for immigrants, recent and otherwise, to discover English folk as well as the other way round!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM

Another bit of light relief.

I am quite proud of how Sheffield United were at the forefront of the camapign to Kick Racism out of Football, partly because of Arthur Wharton who is regarded as the first ever black professional player and he spent some of his career with the Blades.

Anyway the "black bastard" cry came up from behind us at a game and a number of us shouted "It's the colour of the shirt" at the offender.

Sheepishly he admitted he was referring to the referee!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM

Two of the downsides to public funding are, all the hoops you have to jump through AND all the bloody paperwork....


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:09 PM

Two of the downsides to public funding are, all the hoops you have to jump through AND all the bloody paperwork....

I know exactly what you mean but the alternative is to give monety away to whoever asks first and/or loudest! I think we can afford a to learn few circus skills when we are asking for taxpayers money:-)

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM

"to learn few circus skills when we are asking for taxpayers money:-)"

Hoop jumping has become a speciality fgor me..not that I do it while performing....wait though, now that might be a good.....nah.. *LOL*


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:50 PM

Silas ,please, explain why it is nuts,Enlighten us with your erudite Etymology.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM

Well, its bleedin' obvious really. If people want to go and see a trad english act, they will, if they want to see an authentic Asian folk act they will. You don't need to have a club put one act on one week and another act on the next week, cos guess whaty will happen? The people who like Trad english will go to the trad english session and the folk that like Asian stuff will go to the Asian session. Why on earth do you think that people will go to both sessions?

Jeeze, its hard enough to get trad club members to go to Watersons concerts AND Kate Rusby sessions, they have very strong preferences.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:35 PM

Why on earth do you think that people will go to both sessions?


I would! Does that make me nuts as well? What about festivals? Seen the line up just announced for the Dent festival? Been to Fylde in tha last few years. Acts from all over the world and hundreds of people enjoying them all. Are they all bonkers?

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I would too.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I don't think you can enforce integration, you can make it easier, but I'm not sure a booking policy at folk clubs is the way to go about it. BTW, if anyone can tell me what the "English government" mentioned earlier is, I'd be grateful.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: brezhnev
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

anyone got any suggestions for appropriate songs to sing at an FAF gig/rally?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:09 PM

"Silas ,please, explain why it is nuts,Enlighten us with your erudite Etymology."

"Well, its bleedin' obvious really!"

Silas, to most people it is obvious, but to the few you have to explain things verryyyyy slowly and very carefully, using LOTS of pictures.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM

Of course, Silas is entitled to his opinion, as I am entitled to my experience. On the occasions when I have been to folk clubs and pub sessions with my Zimbabwean friends who are singers, as far as I have observed people are very happy if the visitors sing a Zimbabwean folksong. Lovers of English traditional song have not walked out, neither have the Zimbabweans walked out when someone sang "Pleasant and Delightful". No compulsion, no fighting,no unpleasantness. The vast majority of people on the folk scene actually like this sort of thing, I am delighted to say. Though clearly not everybody, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM

FAF can be an organization that exists to reclaim English folk from the BNP.

And when it organizes a FAF night, it can feature English folk acts, but also include non English folk styles on the lineup.

This welcomes 'other' styles to be involved in the English folk scene and to discover it for themselves, and it allows English folkies to witness other forms of folk too that might make the noght more interesting.

It can also feature a solely english lineup.

None of the above are incompatible.

As long as the banner is held high and the message resonates - oh ... and the night is fun and the music is entertaining ... - then get busy doing it how you wanna do it.

I will be on the look out for FAF nights and i will be recommending that promoters I know go out of their way to organize such nights.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM

All very noble, I'm sure.

"It can also feature a solely english lineup"

talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP, some people just ask for trouble.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

So, what does the BNP think about sea shanties?(Or what do the people think about them who just "prefer indigenous English music"?)
England's most sucessful musical export? Or universally loved black folksongs? Or maybe just a fabulous mongrel mix of both?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:03 PM

[Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM

All very noble, I'm sure.

"It can also feature a solely english lineup"

talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP, some people just ask for trouble.]
Rifleman,Really,I would say the opposite.I reckon you play into the hands of the BNP,by abandoning English Traditional music,and letting them take it over.
Rifleman,how you doing with your Carter family repertoire?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:26 PM

why don't we alternate the acts at folk clubs? seems like a simple idea to me. does anyone know if foreign acts get more funding i would love to know.

RIFLEMAN, when do we get the link for your youtube clips? i have absolutely no idea what i would be looking for otherwise.

i have run out of steam now so will come back tommorrow.
have a great day/ night all

take care
jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:57 PM

Go to

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/invite/notinmyname

and sign the petition


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM

Rifleman: "It can also feature a solely english lineup"
talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP


Of course if a concert was organised by FAF or specifically to promote its aims, it would make far more sense and reinforce the anti-raccism message for it to have an international content.

But if we all have to have mixed British and other music every time we have a folk club or concert for fear of being viewed as aligned with the BNP, the BNP have won that round. We can do what we bloody well like, and part of what FAF is there for, I hope, is to allow us to celebrate British folk music without being labelled racist by association.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM

we don't have to mix and match the musical styles but if somewhere wanted to that would be cool by me, i think the best way of doing that would be to alternate on the same night so you wouldn't get just one sort of listeners turning up.

howevr that is entirely up to the club/festival organiser.i agree that the best way to fight the BNP would be to change NOTHING.i think we have a good mixture of people and most of them are reasonable and approachable(?) so why change something that works well?


jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM

Well done Greg Stephens. The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person. This 'fact a fiction' was exposed over 400 years ago. Despite some peoples' attempts to exclude 'irish ' music ( but include Breton and Eastern European)in their 'English Music' sessions, hundreds of traditional tunes appear in the repertoires of players and singers from many communities, having been largely spread by travelling people. Of course, having found a foothold in a local community the song/tune would have taken on the characteristics of the local players, and probably a localised title ( Rakes of Mallow/Rigs of Marlow) but to suggest , e.g Smash the Windows/Roaring Jelly, or Garryowen/Walk of the Twopenny Postaman, or Lass o'Dallogill as EITHER 'Realy' English or Irish is ignorant beyond comprehension. To do so you would have to set the clock at a certain date, like Sharp and co often did, blissfully unaware of tradition and evolution.
The same can be said of the collectors who recorded 'traditional'musicians and attempted to ditinguish, in their repertoire, those tunes/songs which were traditional, and those that had come from 'sources' ( music hall, radio , sheet music etc).Jeez, they all started somewhere, some thought that if they knew WHEN and WHERE, the tune originated it wasn't traditional. sometimes called anon. Well, it is theoretically possible to discover the first edition of every song, does this mean that none of them are traditional?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:00 PM

Oh thank you, thank you, Anahata. I was beginning to feel I was alone.

The BNP are trying to appropriate British music. Don't let them.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM

"We can do what we bloody well like, and part of what FAF is there for, I hope, is to allow us to celebrate British folk music without being labelled racist by association.

Anahata"

BRAVO!

Do NOT ever back away from those racist bastards. I just finished reading--for time number 15 (or something like that)--Leon Uris' "QB VII". Scary how the 'good' Dr Kelno thought so much like the BNP.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM

Y'ain't alone, Snail. Not at all.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 PM

i don't think anyone was saying we should back down or have to justify why we do what we do.

i think the idea was if we wanted to broaden our horizons how could we do it.. i think anyway.

there is nothing wrong with how things are and i don't want it to change becuase we are scared of how it COULD be seen. if that was the case for everything, we wouldn't post here at all. the NOBLE BNP will not change my lifestyle in any way shape or form, except if they somehow make petrol even more expensive.

i agree that i have felt the need to justify some of my remarks but that was so others who are only just reading this know where i am coming from,it suprised me that i felt the need, okay maybe i was having a paraniod moment, think of it in terms of when someone falls over and you laugh, but then feel abit guilty.

i'm okay now just had a bit of a rant head on me.

take care all

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 03:28 AM

"The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person."

Precisely. What I find worrying is that the BNP seem to be adopting a similar spurious, straight-jacketed and self-serving approach to folk music to that which Ewan MacColl invented to support a diametrically-opposed political perspective. Phrases like, "we should be pursuing some kind of national identity" and, "If we subject ourselves consciously or unconsciously to too much cultural acculturation, as the anthropologists call it, we'll finish with no folk culture at all. We'll finish with a kind of cosmopolitan, half-baked music, which doesn't satisfy the emotion of anybody." would be equally at home in a BNP manifesto as from MacColl. This sort of approach to folk music never has been and never will be acceptable to those of us who take a broader view of the genre, and it just comes back to bite us all on the arse.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 03:40 AM

I am sorry, but that is too much. FaFFing horse definitioners AGAIN.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:08 AM

"The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person"
I agree with most of that post. However I am also a "English Music" enthusiast and perpetrator of one of those "anything but Irish" sessions and I think I should explain why. It's true that you can't pin down the origins of some tunes or songs to one country or another, but there are recognisable current repertoires and styles of playing that are typically English, Irish, Scottish and even more regional than that. And there's also a balance or perception to be restored: many English people outside the folk scene don't think there is such a thing as English music at all. They hear a tune played on a fiddle or a penny whistle in a pub and assume it's Irish. I've had several conversations about that with onlookers at pub music sessions. Why do they attach a national label to it at all, and why not just call it folk or traditional music (like they would in Scotland)? The reason is because the whole concept is so unfamiliar that it's assumed to be foreign, and because Irish (or "Celtic" or Scottish) music has been better marketed)

MacColl was dealing a similar and quite specific problem in his time. When I was a clueless kid I thought folk music was an American invention. UK folk singers were singing American songs (and in a fake American accent) and MacColl was just reminding them that we did have some indigenous music of our own and why shouldn't we include at least some of that in our repertoire?

(English music has had some media recognition in the last 10 years, so I suppose I can be a bit more relaxed about things now. It's still what I enjoy playing and researching)

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM

What are people disagreeing about? Most of the posts on the thread have been suggesting that there is nothing at all wrong with celebrating, performing or listening to English folk music or any other folk music. The point is that it is not to the exclusion or detriment of anything; and other music should not be to the detriment of trad. English. Whether the two are mixed at one venue, one night, across seperate events or completely integrated is irrelevent. Facism is about forcing other people to share your views. Folk against Facism should be showing that we can do what we want. By staging trad. English events, 'foreign' events and mixed ones we can show that the restrictive views of the BNP are not welcome. Is everyone was agreed on that?

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM

The point is this.

If you do have other folk cultures on the bill it doesn't harm english folk in any way.

It's just an option that you are free to choose or not depending on what you fancy.

Likewise, if you don't have other folk cultures on the bill it doesn't follow that you have created perfect petri dish style condiitions for the BNP to infect and consume the event.

The point is, people being free to put on whatever night they want and keeping the BNP out.

In both cases a simple anti nazi point is easily made by denying ownership to them and keeping a lid firmly on their politics.

Any FAF night is already making a political statement by simply occurring in the first place.

The banner advertizes a celebration of music at which Nazi ideology is not welcome.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:16 AM

By the way, Is there a Belfast wing of FAF?

... presumably doing Irish folk ...

But maybe they'd like to invite some romanians along to do their thing too ...


Here's why ...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:46 AM

"MacColl was dealing a similar and quite specific problem in his time. ... MacColl was just reminding them that we did have some indigenous music of our own and why shouldn't we include at least some of that in our repertoire?"


I'd have to disagree with you there, Anahata, but I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the methods or motivations of MacColl (which has been discussed and written about ad infinitum). The point I'm making is that once you start appropriating the folk genre and imposing narrow and personal boundaries on it - especially for political reasons, you create a double-edged sword that you then put into the hands of people who may hold a totally opposite view to yours. What I don't want to see is a return to the 'policy clubs' that restricted the type of folk music they were prepared to accept.

"FaFFing horse definitioners AGAIN."

Richard, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:48 AM

Lox, This has been going on from the first eastern Europeans arrived in Belfast.
Emigrants living in Loyalist enclaves of all large towns in the North have been the victims of UDA inspired youths, ChInese, Filipinos, Africans and some Irish Catholic residents have come under attack from these thugs.
As reported in a local Sunday paper the BNP have long been associated with Loyalist gangs, neo-nazi groups were responsible for the outrage against the Romanian families in the latest Belfast episode.

It is well know that Protestant areas will not accept anyone other than their co-religionists in their areas.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:04 AM

"What I don't want to see is a return to the 'policy clubs' that restricted the type of folk music they were prepared to accept"
I don't think they'll ever be quite like that again.
Of course every club has a policy, whether written or not. But I know what you mean...

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM

Ard Mhacha,

I hadn't wanted to jump to conclusions but I did suspect that BNP-UDA sympathies might have had a hand in it somewhere.


Having said that though, lets not get complacent about us Micks either.

Before Europe etc in the nineties, I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish was that we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.

How could we be racist with that kind of CV?

Well ... looks like money corrupts ...

Once the republic signed up to the EU and the money started rolling in, so the doors had to open to allow refugees and asylum seekers in, not to mention foreign labour who were attracted by the growing job market.


Well, suddenly I started hearing aunties and uncles, who had all been on "our" side, going on about "them" bringing "their crime" and taking "our jobs" etc ...

.... it was like watching a seventies British sitcom dubbed with Irish accents.


Anyway, one of the subtler points in my above post is to remind people that FAF doesn't have to be a solely British enterprise and could just as easily benefit from growing simultaneously in Ireland, the USA etc.

In which case the discussion about English folk might begin to seem less important.

Though I do understand and acknowledge the point that in the UK there is a specific campaign by the BNP to target English folk so the context is slightly different.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:21 AM

There was an item on the news this morning about racism in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:39 AM


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:02 AM

Before Europe etc in the nineties, I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish was that we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.
-lox

Yes, I know I said I wouldn't post to this thread anymore. But I have read some things about the subject about racism in Ireland.

Here's one online article:
http://www.rachelstavern.com/uncategorized/xenophobia-and-racism-in-ireland-affect-black-school-children.html

Here's a quote from that article:

..."Ireland is facing some of the same problems as other European countries. Many Irish people do not accept the new immigrants, and this is especially true for Black immigrants, who come mostly from West African countries like Nigeria."...

-snip-
Also see this excerpt from the same article:

[Regarding Black school children unable to find schools and thus-not purposely-attending all Black schools]

..."Part of the problem is that the Irish government allows schools to discriminate on the basis of religion, which ends up being a form of indirect institutional racism.

About 98 percent of schools are run by the Roman Catholic Church, and the law permits them to discriminate on the basis of whether a prospective student has a certificate confirming they were baptized into the faith. Some of the African applicants were Muslim, members of evangelical Protestant denominations or of no religious creed.
**

Also, lox, in order for this statement to be "more historically correct", you also have to exclude the racism attitudes and treatment that some Irish showed in the USA toward Black people in the 19th century during the Civil War and afterwards..

Here's the title of one book on the subject(which I haven't read):
Clear The Confederate Way! The Iris Irish In The Army Of Northern Virginiaby Kelly J. O'Grady

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Confederate-Irish-Northern-Virginia/dp/1882810422

(I don't know if that "Iris Irish") is a typo of the title or not,but that's how its found on that page).

Here's a review of that book which mentions titles of other books:

"The first book of its kind to examine the role of Irish Soldiers in the Army of Northern Virginia

Introduction by prominent Confederate historian Robert K. Krick
Includes rare and unpublished photos of Irish participants

Clear the Confederate Way! is the story of the Southern Irish who fought under Robert E. Lee. While most readers know about the Federal Irish Brigade, few appreciate the extent of the Irish contribution to the Southern war effort. More than a battle narrative, this ground-breaking book is a comprehensive exploration of the substantial Irish contribution to the Southern cause in battle, in Southern society, and in Confederate political circles. This well-written and exhaustively researched study. It is sure to interest both Civil War enthusiasts and many of todays forty million Irish Americans, especially at a time when public fascination with Irish culture and history grips the nation.

Kelly J. OGrady is a graduate of the College of William and Mary and a National Park Service historian at the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park. Also see Irish Rebels, Confederate Tigers (1882810163) and My Life in the Irish Brigade (1882810074). "

-snip-

And, yes, I know that all USA Confederate soldiers and supporters of the USA Confederacy weren't racist-and that some USA Union soldiers and USA Union supporters were racist.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM

"Anyway, one of the subtler points in my above post is to remind people that FAF doesn't have to be a solely British enterprise and could just as easily benefit from growing simultaneously in Ireland, the USA etc."

Spot on, Lox. In fact I'd say that we are duty bound to act against Fascism and Racism where/when ever we encounter it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM

Azizi,

"I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish ..."

Should really have read "the Irish have often claimed to be on the side of the underdog"

Generally this is true of most ordinary Irish folks who are able to empathise with the horrors of colonialism in other countries - things like bloody sunday, the "famine", the black and tans, Irish slaves in the carribbean etc parallel events perpetrated in other countries.

However, this openly worn badge of honour wasn't really tested until the nineties in the Irish Republic and now that it has been it has ben shown to have a few rusty bits. I have faith in the Irish though and I believe that those who are getting used to having different looking faces around will mature and develop in a positive way.

Maybe an Irish version of FAF could assist in such a healthy growth.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM

"In which case the discussion about English folk might begin to seem less important.

Though I do understand and acknowledge the point that in the UK there is a specific campaign by the BNP to target English folk so the context is slightly different."

Given that the whole idea is only just over a week old, I'm not really that enthusiastic about seeing it co-opted and transformed quite yet to fit a range of other agendas. The group was formed to raise awareness of a very specific issue. If others want to start groups with more general objectives, or even objectives more specific to their particular conditions, they are of course welcome to do so. We would support and stand in solidarity with those objectives and groups. But at this particular moment in time, the group exists for quite specific reasons and I hope that will remain the case at least until we've managed to get some work done.

Being a monoculture does not insulate against racism. Some of the Irish people I have known are among the most overtly racist people I have ever met - and I'm specifically thinking of Northern Irish Catholics, but I've known southern Irish people who were also quite intolerant. And it's not just since the EU and the Celtic Tiger inspired migration into Ireland. I was well integrated into the Irish ex-pat community in my home town (in New Jersey) in the 80s, sharing an apartment with a couple of girls from Lisburn and Belfast. The Irish blokes I knew were appallingly racist towards the African American people in my town. When one of them got seven kinds of shit kicked out of him because he was overheard referring to a group of them as "monkeys", I couldn't really bring myself to sympathise with his plight.

I remember doing my dissertation about community arts in Belfast about 10 years ago, and discussing with many people how "cultural diversity" there had a whole different meaning and context than in England - it really only referred to the two dominant communities. Sorting out the tensions between them took up so much time and so many resources that the authorities couldn't even begin to think about the racism which took place against the small, minority Chinese and Pakestani communities - but everyone knew that it happened.

The problem is, it's easy to romanticise an underdog culture, and one which has been under threat. It's wonderful seeing people embracing their cultural uniqueness and defending it against past attempts to dissolve it, as certainly did happen to Ireland in the past. But I think something sometimes happens in the collective psyches of such cultures, in which identity becomes so bound up with a particular definition of nationality that even small changes to that definition are seen as a threat. The recent debates on Irish citizenship around the time of the citizenship referendum a few years ago centred not just on the alleged threat to societal infrastructure (healthcare, schools etc) posed by an influx of immigrants, but also on what it meant to be Irish. Could children of African or Pakistani parents, born on Irish soil, really have the right to be called Irish? Wasn't being Irish more than that - a cultural heritage, a racial distintion in itself? Was there a difference between citizenship and nationality? While the legislation subsequently enacted made the distinction between jus solis (soil-based) and jus sanguinis (blood-based) citizenship rights for a variety of legal an emigration reasons, there almost seemed to be a subtext of defining what being Irish actually means, and an attempt to enshrine that cultural definition in law before the indigenous culture could become too diluted by external influences. And in practice, what it means is that, because of my Irish grandparents, I could claim Irish citizenship and go and live there, but a child born on Irish soil, despite being granted autiomatic citizenship, could find themselves deported along with their parents.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM

we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.

See Irish invasion of Scotland, How St Patrick was sold into slavery and the Irish six nations victory before you go down that road, Lox! Everyone has been at it at some time :-D

Lets not get sidetracked by what has happened in the past. Rather we concentrate on how to evict these parasites from our folk clubs!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Mick Tems
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:10 AM

I've signed up for Folk Against Fascism and I'm very proud to be doing so. (Incidentally, it was the UDA, hard-line protestants and loyalists, who were responsible for a week of racist attacks and verbal abuse on 20 Romanian families in Belfast.)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM

This Irish-American crap grinds, although I have many US relations I wouldn`t be proud of a country responsible for the death of countless thousands.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:47 AM

This Irish-American crap grinds, although I have many US relations I wouldn`t be proud of a country responsible for the death of countless thousands.

This is part of a Guardian article in January 2004,

Not far from the red, white and blue paving stones, the Ku Klux Klan graffiti and the "Chinks out" notices scratched outside south Belfast Chinese takeaways, Hua Long Lin was at home watching television when a man burst in and smashed a brick into his face. His wife, also in the room, was eight months pregnant. The couple had moved into the terrace two weeks before.

Neighbours expressed regret but one white family told a community worker they couldn't offer a Chinese family friendship in public or they would be "bricked" too.

"It's like Nazi Germany," they explained.

Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors.

Over 200 incidents were reported to police in the past nine months, although many victims don't bother complaining any more.

But in the past weeks, fear has deepened. Protestant working-class neighbourhoods are showing a pattern of orchestrated house attacks aimed at "ethnically cleansing" minority groups.

It is happening in streets run by loyalist paramilitaries, where every Chinese takeaway owner already pays protection money and racists have plentiful access to guns. The spectre of Catholics being systematically burnt out of similar areas during the Troubles hangs in the air.

So-called peace walls between Protestant and Catholic communities are graffitied with swastikas and signs that read "keep the streets white".

Both local unionists and Sinn Féin warned this week that someone is likely to be killed or burned alive in their home if the campaign does not stop. But there are no signs of it abating.

The Village in south Belfast is a run-down network of loyalist terraces where unemployment is high, union flags sag from lampposts and almost every family has a link to loyalist paramilitaries.

In post-peace process Northern Ireland, communities like this are more segregated than ever - through choice. Last year, five student houses, home to mixed Protestants and Catholics, were attacked until they were vacated. The siege mentality against "outsiders" is rife.

In the past eight weeks, pregnant Chinese women and new mothers have been forced out of terraces and over a dozen Chinese people have been attacked. The Chinese community, the largest ethnic minority in Northern Ireland, has been in Belfast since the 1960s, but there are rumours that a "quota" on new arrivals is being enforced. Last month, Ugandan and Romanian families were burned out.

Many elderly Chinese people do not now leave their homes after 3pm. The best they can hope for is an egg or ice-cream cone thrown in their face or their shopping bags stolen.

This week, in the shadow of a paramilitary mural, a six-foot plank was hurled through the front window of the home of a Pakistani woman who was eight months pregnant. The spot where she and her brother-in-law had eaten dinner 20 minutes before was sprayed with glass. They had moved into the house 12 hours earlier.

This hatred is on-going anyone living here knows where the racialists live, a pity the police don`t respond with the same enthusiasm as they would in Nationalists areas.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM

Azizi.
I live in County Cork Ireland.
In my village,there two primary schools one is protestant one is catholic,there is a scondary school five miles away that is non denominational.IN 4 Neighbouring villages,there are four schools two catholic, two protestant,there are school buses laid on so that children can go to the schools of their choice,their is no discrimation against any religion,in my area,I can only talk from my own experience.
my own experience refutes your claims.
Snail,I support you one hundred percent,if you wish to run a folk club your way,with a booking policy that books and promotes traditional music from the Islands of Britain[england scotland wales ireland],you have every right to do so without being called racist.
if an organiser wished to start a club in LEWES or anywhere,that booked solely norwegian or swedish traditional music,that would not be racist either.
promoters have the right to promote what they like,what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:33 AM

"what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds."

nor to allow performers to get away with victimizing members of their audience on race grounds or peddling racist ideas.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

"what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds."

add also.. "what they do not have the right to do is to exclude performers on race grounds."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

There is an article in today's Morning Star about Folk Against Fascism and the attempt by the BNP to infiltrate folk music.
IFOR


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

Captain Birdseye

what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds.

Lox

nor to allow performers to get away with victimizing members of their audience on race grounds or peddling racist ideas.

Is there any suggestion that either of these things happen in British folk clubs?

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM

It is not true to say that the Irish have never taken slaves. Even the young man who would later be St Patrick and found Christianity and a building culture in Ireland was taken by Irish reivers from England and sold into slavery following the Roman withdrawal from England. At that time slavery was commonplace in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM

No one else has mentioned them so I will.
Would the Spinners be a suitable group to book? They embraced world music before we even knew what it was.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM

Miskin. You'd have a job booking the Spinners nowadays. However, if you try mentioning the word fascist to Tony Davis, I suggest you stand back rapidly. Accommodating towards people on the far right he is not.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

The Spinners headlined the first big concert that I ever went to - The EFDSS Folk Festival at the Albert Hall in 1973. Great stuff!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM

"There is an article in today's Morning Star about Folk Against Fascism and the attempt by the BNP to infiltrate folk music."

Blimey. We haven't even done anything yet!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM

"Rifleman,how you doing with your Carter family repertoire?"

It's going very well indeed, right along with selections from The Band, Fairport Convention, the odd Steeleye Span, Sandy Denny (we have included The Quiet Joys of Brother into the songbook, the song is, of course credited to both Richard Farina and Sandy Denny) , oh we shouldn't forget music from the VoP collection, Sam Larner. Lizzie Higgins..my oh my but the list goes on.

There's been a delay in setting up the youtube channel, the sound quality isn'nt all it should be, but we're working on it (damn where's John Wood when you need him *LOL*)

""It can also feature a solely english lineup"
talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP"

I stand by what I,ve said about this.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:29 AM

Captain Birdseye, in your 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM post, you wrote that your own experiences regarding schools in your area refutes my claims.

For the record, I'm not making any claims. I just reposted excerpts of an article that I found online.

That said, I'm glad that your community's school are different than what is described in that article.

I'm disheartened to read about the racism and anti-immigrationism (if that's a word) in Ireland. Yesterday I talked to my daughter who was thinking of saving for a trip to Europe. I told her that she may not want to travel to the UK now given what I've been reading on this and similar threads, and in that article I just quoted from. Or at the very least, I told her that she needs to be alert and aware about hate groups such as the BNP.

What a shame.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM

An all-English lineup, singing all-English songs, in front of a Folk Against Fascism banner (if there was such a thing) - I think that would be a really powerful statement *against* the BNP's "interest" in folk music. Especially if not all of the English people involved were White.

The last thing we want to do is say "Fascists play exclusively-English music, therefore anti-Fascists should play music from everywhere". English traditional music is my heritage, forsaken milkmaids and valiant sailors and all - it's my heritage and they're not having it. Or rather, it's *our* heritage - it belongs to the people of England, not to some bunch of Fascists.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:48 AM

Azizi, these groups exist all over Europe - in some countries they are far more poweerful than in Britain. Advising your daughter not to come here because of the hate groups is as alarmist as the Japanese government cancelling my daughter's school visit there because of swine flu (which they have done).

Life is all about calculated risk. We talk about these things because they need to be talked about and exposed, but it is equally important to keep them in perspective. London, for example, is one of the most cosmopolitan cities she will ever have the chance to visit.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM

AZIZI, please don't scare you daughter into staying away from the U.K it is a beautiful and mostly tolerant country.

in general we treat our visitors with respect, i think she will be okay, she will just have to take the same precautions here as you would anywhere else.

if she does go to one of our festivals, she will find that on the whole we talk to anyone and everyone, she will be welcome.

take care

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

What Ruth said. Racism is borderline illegal in this country - government bodies & publicly-funded institutions (like universities) are under a legal obligation to promote equality of opportunity for all ethnic groups. If you crossed the UK off your list on the grounds that organised racist groups exist here, you'd also have to cross off France, Germany, Italy, the USA, er...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:54 PM

"An all-English lineup, singing all-English songs", proposes Working Radiush. So, OK in principle. In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from? Who is going to decide? A special committee? Do we permit Irish origin songs, if well-acclimatised in England? Etc etc. I think anybody who has given any serious thought to this matter has recognised the impossibilty of defining a concept like "all-English" song: or at least in the context of traditional song it is impossible. "Popular in England", sure, but I think some people are looking for a more Englishy Englishness than that.A very elusive quality.
So, if anyone can supply the list, I'm up for playing in the concert!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM

Okay. Thanks. I'm sure that I overreacted.

I knew that I needed time away from thinking about all of this. It's personal to me in ways that may not be as intense for many other people posting to this thread.

I should have listened to my spirit telling me to take a break from this subject for a while. I recognize that I'm lucky that I can take a break from thinking about racism. Other people living in the midst of things such as those Chinese immigrants in Ireland who were bricked (I didn't know what "bricked" meant until I read that article) whose story I read this morning aren't able to take such breaks.

For those who don't have to be involved in this struggle because you aren't directly targeted by the BNP and other hate groups, please know that I thank you from the bottom of my heart-and the top of it too.

I'm trying to stay upbeat but actually I'm teary eyed now.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM

greg stephens

In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from?

I expect the BNP have already done that. We don't want them to sing ANY of those songs. Can we try and remember the point of this exercise?

I like "well-acclimatised in England". As a friend of mine says, "We do play some Irish stuff but it's English by the time we've finished with it."

And while I'm here, what DID you mean by "If people want to run a white folk club..."?

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 01:19 PM

They're Roma people, actually. Strange you should think they are Chinese, given the powerful influence the People's Republic had on the old Romanian regime. It also goes to illustrate just how long the shadow of the past is in Ireland where there is a long and sad history of harassment of their own travelling people (or Tinkers, as they are termed).

There have always been those who will attack and cast blame on anyone a bit different from themselves for the ills and iniquities of society. Neo-facist groups are merely doing the work of the ruling class by stirring up the process of divide-and-rule through prejudice. The epitome of ignorance. ¡No pasarán!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 01:33 PM

In both Ireland and in Romania, I have seen at first hand the appalling treatment and the social exclusion of their respective wandering classes, sects, races, castes, call them what you will. The Roma have moved away from Romania in large numbers to try to find a better life elsewhere, but don't seem to be getting much of a welcome anywhere.

Yet who are the carriers of the traditional oral culture of both these countries and also the amongst the finest exponents of their singing and music?

Well, funnily enough, it if the travellers and the Roma respectively.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: foggers
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM

Azizi - I second what Ruth and jeddy have said. Our concerns on this thread are about a very specific minority whose political activity needs to be challenged and exposed for the racist bigotry it is.

But they do NOT speak for the vast majority of people here in GB.

Cities such as London have a rich multicultural identity and that can be a life changing experience - I hope your daughter does travel here and experience that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

funnily enough I have had racist abuse in Ireland,but two cases in 19 years,a miniscule proportion,the majority of people like the majority in England are decent, tolerant, pleasant people,who are prepared to live and let live.
furthermore,they dont go about making racist smears.
Rifleman,try standing by your Man/van,it makes more sense.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM

In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from? Who is going to decide?

In practice, anyone who wanted to decide would decide - and anyone who wanted to object to those people's decision could object to it. It's only in theory that there's any need to draw up a Definitive List of Definitively English songs - and since gigs don't happen in theory, I don't think it's a big problem.

I think we're answering different questions. Your question is "should we, as anti-fascist folkies, exclude non-English songs on principle?" and obviously the answer to that is No. But mine is "should we, as anti-fascist folkies, try to include non-English songs on principle?" - and I think the answer to that is No too.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM

Pip Radish: I am totally against including non-English songs, or non-English performers, if it is done "on principle". I am moderately in favour of including non-English songs, and non-English performers, because it is sociable and interesting and fun. I am also in favour of concentrating(some of the time) on music from a very narrow geographical range and cultural background: may I recommend the Boat Band's "A Trip to the Lakes" for an examplke of that, and the Boat Band's "Take Me Over the |Tide" and "Back Deck Blues" for an example of the other.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM

"Rifleman,try standing by your Man/van,it makes more sense."

My father says a person shouldn,t have a battle of wits with an unarmed man, so I won't


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:24 PM

Belfast racists target Romanian migrants

from ITN News

More than 100 Romanians have been forced out of their homes in Belfast by racists.

About 20 families were helped by police in the Lisburn Road area of the city and taken to a nearby church hall. They have since moved to a leisure centre that has been set up as a temporary shelter.

Police, community representatives, politicians and officials from a range of statutory agencies are to attend an emergency meeting in the city to see what can be done for the families.

The meeting at the Chinese Resource Centre on the city's Ormeau Road will discuss an action plan aimed at making the families feel safe to stay.

But many of the families have now vowed to leave Northern Ireland for good.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown joined condemnation of the attacks and said: "I hope the authorities are able to take all the action necessary to protect them."

Police and community leaders had earlier condemned racism in the area which culminated in an attack on a rally in support of the east European migrants.

Youths hurled bottles and made Nazi salutes at those taking part in the anti-racism rally.

The men, women and children, including a five-day-old baby girl, first sought shelter in a house where they thought they would be safe.

But the house was not big enough and a local church offered them the use of the church hall for as long as they need.

Pastor Malcolm Morgan said the church was happy to help. "It is a sad indictment of our society, but hopefully we can show them a different side to Northern Ireland and a caring side to Northern Ireland," he said.

A Police Service of Northern Ireland spokeswoman said: "Police in the south Belfast area assisted several organisations in the temporary relocation of a number of families following consultation with community representatives.

"Families moved to a near-by church and they are being cared for by the appropriate agencies."

Belfast Lord Mayor Naomi Long urged the south Belfast community to rally round their neighbours following the spate of racist attacks.

One of the Romanians, a mother of two who is now sheltering at the Ozone centre, said the targeted families were still petrified.

The woman said everyone was now adamant that they wanted to return to Romania.

She said attacks had been intensifying over the last two weeks but culminated in the racist thugs breaking into her house and threatening her and her children.

"We are OK, we are safe here now," she said in the leisure centre.

"But we want to go home because right now we are not safe here in Northern Ireland. We want to go back home to Romania, everybody right now does."

She said she wanted to leave Northern Ireland as soon as possible.

"I want to go home because I have here two kids and I want my kids to be safe."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

Rifleman see my postings up the Thread.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM

I was fully aware of your posting I personally don't have a problem with repeating an important piece of news. Enough said.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:53 PM

i can't beleive that so few people can make so much trouble.

i am disgusted.

it is such a shame that, for most of the decent people of northern ireland they can't stop this slur in their names. these poor people will always think of this time and blame the whole country.

thankyou for bringing it to our attention, this could be us if we let the BNP have their way.

btw greg, i love the "Englishy Englishness" that is the sort of langauge i understand..lol

we all seem to be agreeing that booking any artist just to make a point is unecessary and would just point out the fact we are trying too hard to make the point, we are NOT racist.

take care all
jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM

my gosh...history is presenting us with an opportunity right now. If you have an opportunity can you sing the wearing of the green? mg


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM

i am jealous, you can change colours. whinge... i want to do that !!

i just don't understand how to, if you explain it, it sounds complicated.

jade x x lol


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:41 PM

I took delivery of the first batch of 3000 stickers today, by the way. They will be available at Big Session this weekend.

We have a meeting on Friday to decide how we're distributing the merch, so they should be available to buy very soon.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM

Treewind wrote

I agree with most of that post. However I am also a "English Music" enthusiast and perpetrator of one of those "anything but Irish" sessions


If you actually read the post with which you mainly agree, and accept that such terms as 'Irish' or 'English' ate largely meaningless, ( especially as what is now called 'English music' consists mainly of German and Danish Polkas (played on German instruments) that displaced English reels and Jigs.

In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

FFS, please stop to think about the differences between the terms: -

Romanians
Romanies
Roma
romers
Gipsies
Travellers
Tinkers
Didiquoi (or Didikai)


No, I wont be singing "the Wearing of the Green" - any more than I'd expect a Klezmer band to play an instrumental of "The Ash Grove" (Die Lindenbaum). Or than I'd expect a visiting German group to sing any number of WWI or WWII British Army songs, or a French visiting player to play "Swaggering Boney".

Yes, I do think there is a point in my singing "English" "Folk" song, in principle. Because someone ought to. And I'm (as far as I know) English.

But I will also sing (as you should know) other songs too.

The "English" songs I sing do not belong to the lunatic right. The international and/or religious hostilities of which they (or some of them) speak are those of their respective times. They do not speak of setting person against person on the basis of colour.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:47 AM

Is this what BMP mean by voluntary repatriation?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:53 AM

typo BNP mean


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:00 AM

No intention of being rude here - but as I've noticed a couple of times on this thread that on occasion, what I presume are American posters who may not know who they are (?), there have been mistaken 'soundalike' references to the BNP - such as BMP or BNC for e.g.

Just to clarify, for those who may not be aware, BNP is shorthand for the "British National Party."

See Wiki entry for BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:01 AM

Bah - you got there before me! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,tom bliss
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM

once again, please write to your mp if you feel that including trad arts etc in the school curriculum is good way of heading off the bnp (and a good thing anyway).

this is now before the minister for schools and learning, and I could do with some back up.

thanks


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:10 AM

In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?

Not really. One meant that Irish people weren't welcome - and that there were only a few places where they were. The other means that Irish tunes aren't welcomed - and there are lots of places where they are.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM

"In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?"


No.


The cultural contexts could not be more different. Unfortunately, the commercial success of Irish music and Plastic Paddy-style pubs cropping up everywhere in the 80s and 90s resulted in Irish music having a cultural dominance over English music - in England. As a result, many English people, as has been said, think that any music with a fiddle in it must be Irish. I think Anahata's response is not dissimilar to that of a lot of people interested in English music - they are simply trying to create for it a bit of breathing space.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:57 AM

"I took delivery of the first batch of 3000 stickers today, by the way"

I've actually made some of my own using the logo on myspace and now have them in the front windows, in the caravan windows and in the car. They are a bit rough but do the trick - I wish I'd had some before the election as my house is directly opposite the polling station.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:54 AM

I just popped in to FAF on Myspace.
When you have 10 minutes and a box of tissues handy go there scroll down to a video "Tamlyn retold".

Very powerful!!

FAF andy

P.S. Why not distribute Stickers through Folk Clubs, several orgfanisers are already signed up?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:55 AM

Oops, I seem to have invented a new word "orgfanisers". In fact I quite like it, could it catch on?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM

Miskin Man:


Lots of groups and individuals ave said they want merch, so we need an infrastructure for distribution which allows us to do this effectively, and also allows us to recoup the costs of making the merch so that we can make more. This could constitute trading. We're meeting tomorrow to discuss how best to handle it.

Once we've got some sort of virtual marketplace, anyone, including folk club organisers, will be able to access it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:12 AM

Set up FAF Ltd as a company limited by guarantee. Try to get it registered as a charity - probably difficult as its objectives are political, but you could limit its purposes to educational and do the politicking through a sister company... you might get away with that.

Create a subsidiary FAF Trading Ltd (it will register for VAT) that trades and covenants all its profits to FAF so it doesn't have to pay tax.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:19 AM

Just get them made, tell us how much you want and drop them in the post. Happens on Ebay every day.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM

Folk against Polaris
This album was actually written in 1960 and produced for Folkways in the USA by Pete Seeger.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:28 AM

I'm sure it does. But given that the group is already being targeted by fascists, I want to make sure we do everything properly. There will be people looking for opportunities to trip us up.



Very useful, Richard. Is this how we get around paying VAT? It will be a completely non-profit organisation, and I wanted to make sure we weren't paying tax as if we were a commercial organisation.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM

Ruth/ Joan (I get confused!),

We're keen to put on a gig at Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club under the FaF banner...... can we just go ahead and do this or do we need approval/ guidance etc from the organisation?

Please can you keep us informed about Merch distribution as you get it sorted?

Thanks

Paul


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:21 AM

ubject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM

"In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?"


No.


Well there's a suprise.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:51 AM

"We're keen to put on a gig at Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club under the FaF banner......"

Great idea, Paul. Count us in.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM

Azizi,

Something to bear in mind is that the two BNP MEP's were elected in Yorkshire and the North west.

Map of results

You can see from this map where the two MEP's were elected, butmore importantly you can get a perspective on how deep the rot has set in - and it hasn't set in that deep.

There are only 2 reps out of 70 who are from the BNP so in perspective we still live in a safe free society.

So why all the fuss?

Because one Nazi in office is one too many and that spark must be starved of oxygen lest it burst into flame and burn our society down.

Its a bit like dropping a cigarette in the woods - people probably do it every day and the woods don't burn down, but there is always the risk that it might catch - and when it does the results are catastrophic.

So we are making a big noise while it is a speck because we care about our democracy and will not allow them into power, but on the other hand - if your daughter is sensible she will be less at risk of a racist assault than she will be of getting mugged.

And that could probably happen where you are just as easily as here.

And if that stopped us travelling we would all live and die in experiential poverty.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

"Well there's a suprise. "

Not really sure what that's meant to mean. As I mentioned up the thread, my heritage is half Irish. I'm the grandchild of immigrants on both sides, and I'm an immigrant myself. I have no innate prejudice against the Irish. But I don't see any material similarity between the two situations you describe, for the reasons I gave. Context is everything.


Hi Paul,

I've got this meeting tomorrow where I'm hoping that all of these issues can be discussed. I'm going straight to the Big Session from there, so if you can hold tight till Monday for an answer, it would be great. I don't think organisations like Love Music Hate Racism "control" the events that are held under their banner as such, but there ought to be some uniformity of message, and probably a bit of quality and stock control when it comes to producing and distributing merch. These are all issues we need to iron out round a table, so if you can hang tight till Monday, it would be great.

Joan


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:12 AM

This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized.
You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate
anyone from their mind.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM

"I don't think organisations like Love Music Hate Racism "control" the events that are held under their banner as such, but there ought to be some uniformity of message"

It could be worth considering that at a Love Music Hate Racism event, like the old Anti Nazi League carnivals, its about using agreeable bands (most of them) to attract people to show solidarity against racism.

The uniformity of message is the FAF manifesto and the bands get people along to listen.

In the case of FAF you have the extra point of reclaiming english folk from the nazi's, but does there have to be a unity of message in terms of performance content?

Is that even what you meant?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:39 AM

"In the case of FAF you have the extra point of reclaiming english folk from the nazi's"

Well, that's pretty much what I meant. But as you'll note from this thread, the phrase Folk Against Fascism can be interpreted in myriad different ways...I think it's quite important that we maintain the prominence of that central message, and also a principle of non-violent engagement. Other than that, the world is really your popsicle stand as far as I'm concerned.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM

"Is this what BNP mean by voluntary repatriation"

"voluntary repatriation" read if you won't go on your own we'll make damned sure you DO go.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM

This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized. You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate anyone from their mind.

Uniting against Fascism and Racism does not mean the politicisation of folk music; I know many right-of-centre good-hearted folkies who despise the BNP and all that they stand for but who feel equally affronted by the almost universal adoption of Folk by the Left. There are crucial exceptions of course - Peter Bellamy was one such; whatever his father's political allegiances might have been, one feels sure PB would have been as repulsed by the BNP as are our Tory voting non-folkie neighbours. It's interesting to read what Dick Gaughan has to say on BP's politics - see Here - and one would hope political tolerance cuts both ways in these troubled times.

Opposing the BNP is one thing, disassociating folk music from Racism and Fascism is quite another. It is not a matter of politicisation though, on the contrary - it is a matter an all inclusive non-politicisation whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

alot of audiences simply don't want politics mixed with their music, it's the audiences who're paying the performers fees. I'll abide by what the audience wants thanks.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 12:10 PM

Here's that last post again with the HTML corrected:

This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized. You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate anyone from their mind.

Uniting against Fascism and Racism does not mean the politicisation of folk music; I know many right-of-centre good-hearted folkies who despise the BNP and all that they stand for but who feel equally affronted by the almost universal adoption of Folk by the Left. There are crucial exceptions of course - Peter Bellamy was one such; whatever his father's political allegiances might have been, one feels sure PB would have been as repulsed by the BNP as are our Tory voting non-folkie neighbours. It's interesting to read what Dick Gaughan has to say on BP's politics - see Here - and one would hope such personal & political tolerance cuts both ways in troubled times such as these.

Opposing the BNP is one thing, disassociating folk music from Racism and Fascism is quite another. It is not a matter of politicisation though, on the contrary - it is a matter an all inclusive non-politicisation whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

For the last time on this Thread, the people responsible for the violence against the Romanians were Loyalists,UDA,Protestants, this is without any argument here in the north of Ireland.
This has been going on from these people arrived and as for singing The Wearing of the Green, there is as much chance of these Loyalist thugs singing that, as to hear Paisley sing `God bless our Pope`.
I live in a small street of 36 houses in the street are a number of houses occupied by, Ukranians in No2,Polish 3, Pakistani 8, Polish 10,Polish 15, Romanian 16,Polish 20, and Polish 31. The emigrants have had nothing but help from the locals, they would be astonished to read some of the ill-informed opinions on this Site.

This wouldn`t happen in a Loyalist Protestant street, the town has a population of around 30,000, the emigrants are almost all living in Catholic Nationalist disricts, and this is the case in all of the towns in the north.
Those Belfast Romanians should have been advised before they moved into that part of south Belfast, they are now moved to a Nationalist area for their own safety.

So please check out your facts before accusing all of us in the north of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 12:48 PM

"....whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion. "
Sorry, folk song has always contained its fair share of politics, be it Jacobite, anti-establishment, fight for better conditions, recognition of and opposition to class differences, struggles for national independance, pro-industrial action, support for and opposition to military activity (want a list of American Civil War songs - either side available) - right down to children's songs and election chants "Vote-vote-vote for....." whoever, or the more sophisticated "Harry was a Bolshie"). Perhaps you meant to say 'left political opinion'?
As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game. Try macrame (was going to say chess, but it don't come more political than that).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:08 PM

ard mhacha, idon't think i have seen anyone say that it is the whole of northern ireland. i have said that those poor people will think of it as a country wide problem, but then if that had happened to you, you would probably think the same.

this is a case of a few spoiling it for everyone.

take care

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM

As an Irish-American I find the term "Plastic Paddy" to be very offensive..way more offensive than what they could have come up with in 1870. I would ask that you at least put parentheses around it to distance yourself from an offensive term. mg


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM

What's wrong with the term "Plastic Paddy Pubs"? We have plenty of tacky fake Irish theme pubs in the UK. And they have exactly *zero* to do with Irish culture. It just describes a type of 'commercial branding' which cashes in on the worst imaginable tacky pastiche of Irishness.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

It's the Plastic Paddy pubs with green beer, fake shamrock and fields upon fields of sodding Athenry that are deeply offensive and the ultimate dumbing down of all things Irish, especially the culture. No-one mentioned anything about Hibernian citizens being manufactured from said polymer.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

I'm not quite sure why you find Plastic Paddy so offensive. It refers to anything that is excessively commercialised or completely false, such as the chains of Irish-themed pubs which sprung up in England about 10 years ago.

If you really think that this is more offensive than the Irish stereotypes that were around in the 1870s, I think you might be ever so slightly over-sensitive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,jock
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM

Lox posted " ............Something to bear in mind is that the two BNP MEP's were elected in Yorkshire and the North west .."

For the benefit of our friends from outside the UK, could I point out that Lox was referring to the North West region of England, not Britain, although he has only mentioned Britain in his postings. A bit confusing for our foreign cousins.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM

As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game.

I don't think so, Jim; out of a personal repertoire of some 300 odd Traditional English Language Folk Songs not a single one of them is in any way shape or form party political. I might grin as I intone the wishful jingoism of Bellamy's setting of Kipling's The Land despite the erroneous left-wing gloss put on it by certain singers; as ever, I fear, context is all. Fact is, I know just as many Right-Wing Traddies as I do Left; Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie, and he was quite possibly the only world-class Genius the Folk Revival ever produced. As for myself, I choose not to get involved one way or the other; we all have our opinions (such as mine about the genius of Peter Bellamy) and we all are all welcome to them.   

The defeat of Racism & Fascism is something very different and won't be achieved by the factionalism & in-fighting that, as already touched upon, not only typifies the left, but also accounts for its ultimate impotence. Racism & Fascism will not be defeated by singing Folk Songs (much less protest songs) but if by showing solidarity against the BNP Folkies & Traddies - be they Left, Right, Centre or Whatever - can remove this unwelcome stain from our precious musical & cultural heritage then that only ever be a good thing. If that's what Folk against Fascism is about, then I'm happy to be part of it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM

SO'P
Oh, come on - you didn't mention 'party' political.
Even so, our repertoires are full of political songs, either explicitly supporting a specific political cause, or by implication, attacking the establishment.
You appear to be suggesting the suspension of political opinion until the fight against fascism is won - life ain't like that. Worthy causes are like number 9 buses, you win one and along comes another - Mosely, Second front, Korea, Cuba, CND, Viet Nam, Greece, Chile, the miners strike, Turkey, Iran..........
Folk song records our history - and that includes political and social struggle.
"It refers to anything that is excessively commercialised or completely false"
It also refers to people who adopt an 'Oirish' accent and supposed 'T'ick' mannerisms, just as offensive and racist as the term itself.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM

It might be worthwhile to recognise the difference between specific 'political songs' or particular 'bodies of political songs' within the English folk tradition as a whole, and the inappropriate *politicising of songs* and indeed the *politicising of* the English folk tradition as a whole.

I fear I'm not expressing this well. But while there may have always been political songs which existed in context to their times, it is the retrospective politicising of the English tradition as a whole, which I think needs to be fully avoided.

I also think that is precisely the purpose of the current campaign with respect to the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

SO'P, don't waste your time, Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it (I find them to be just as offensive as any racist), they only see what they want to see and expect everyone else to see the same thing and in the same way
We all do what we can and do it to the best of our abilities and that's the best we can hope for


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM

"As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game."

Couldn't agree more, there, Jim. Take away the politcs from folk music and you've bugger all left.

"Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it."

And what sort would that be? Presumably the sort who aren't prepared to take your gobshite. Well, I'm one of that sort. Sorry to offend your right wing sensibilities (actually, no, I'm not)but, as Jim says, you're in the wrong place here - what you want to see is your own navel and, quite frankly, for the rest of us, it ain't a pretty sight.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM

[ SO'P, don't waste your time, Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it (I find them to be just as offensive as any racist),]QUOTE Rifleman.
so now someone[ is this MIKE HOCKENHULL ?] is saying Jim Carroll is as offensive as any racist [which equals THE BNP].
I find that very offensive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM

Ruth/ Joan,

No probs I'll wait until Monday. Just let me know how the land lies.

Thanks

Paul


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM

"Sorry to offend your right wing sensibilities"
*LOL
I was waiting for that; what took you so long...navel gazing were you? *LOL* I've fought racism all my life, and not because I have a choice, being a non white immigrant, I don't, so kindly spare me your white middle class patronising

I,m neither right nor left, both offend me equally..

You very likely don't sing the ballads.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: curmudgeon
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:16 PM

Being a Yank with lots of friends across the pond, I've been following this thread as an education. But please put me down as one of Jim Carroll's "sort' - Tom Hall


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM

I enjoy Jim Carrol's posts and I think he knows a lot about what is important in folk music.

Part of what will defeat the racism of the BNP is the in-depth knowledge and interest in traditional music of all kinds. The old style ballad singing is an antidote to those who attempt to use folk music as a kind of phony nationalism. The power of that music defies
those who would claim it as a pretext for jingoism.

I think art can transcend partisan politics but with the idea that the expression of art whenever it is made has to be political. It affects the social order.

I used to be one who thought that a song could not change a view or belief. I'm not so sure anymore about that. Songs are very powerful statements that can transform society.

When I hear the old ballads, I am moved and transformed into thinking that the human
condition is variable and adaptable