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Folk Against Fascism

Lox 17 Jun 09 - 05:16 AM
theleveller 17 Jun 09 - 05:46 AM
ard mhacha 17 Jun 09 - 05:48 AM
treewind 17 Jun 09 - 06:04 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Chris Murray 17 Jun 09 - 06:21 AM
ard mhacha 17 Jun 09 - 06:39 AM
Azizi 17 Jun 09 - 07:02 AM
Scotsman Over The Border 17 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM
Mick Tems 17 Jun 09 - 08:10 AM
GUEST 17 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM
ard mhacha 17 Jun 09 - 08:47 AM
The Sandman 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 09:33 AM
Andrew Wigglesworth 17 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,ifor 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM
TheSnail 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM
Andy Jackson 17 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM
Fred McCormick 17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM
Steve Hunt 17 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 17 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM
Azizi 17 Jun 09 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 17 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Jun 09 - 11:48 AM
jeddy 17 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM
Phil Edwards 17 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM
greg stephens 17 Jun 09 - 12:54 PM
Azizi 17 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM
TheSnail 17 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM
The Borchester Echo 17 Jun 09 - 01:19 PM
Vic Smith 17 Jun 09 - 01:33 PM
foggers 17 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM
The Sandman 17 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM
Phil Edwards 17 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM
greg stephens 17 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 17 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 17 Jun 09 - 04:24 PM
ard mhacha 17 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 17 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM
jeddy 17 Jun 09 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM
jeddy 17 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM
Ruth Archer 17 Jun 09 - 06:41 PM
Tug the Cox 17 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:16 AM

By the way, Is there a Belfast wing of FAF?

... presumably doing Irish folk ...

But maybe they'd like to invite some romanians along to do their thing too ...


Here's why ...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:46 AM

"MacColl was dealing a similar and quite specific problem in his time. ... MacColl was just reminding them that we did have some indigenous music of our own and why shouldn't we include at least some of that in our repertoire?"


I'd have to disagree with you there, Anahata, but I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the methods or motivations of MacColl (which has been discussed and written about ad infinitum). The point I'm making is that once you start appropriating the folk genre and imposing narrow and personal boundaries on it - especially for political reasons, you create a double-edged sword that you then put into the hands of people who may hold a totally opposite view to yours. What I don't want to see is a return to the 'policy clubs' that restricted the type of folk music they were prepared to accept.

"FaFFing horse definitioners AGAIN."

Richard, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:48 AM

Lox, This has been going on from the first eastern Europeans arrived in Belfast.
Emigrants living in Loyalist enclaves of all large towns in the North have been the victims of UDA inspired youths, ChInese, Filipinos, Africans and some Irish Catholic residents have come under attack from these thugs.
As reported in a local Sunday paper the BNP have long been associated with Loyalist gangs, neo-nazi groups were responsible for the outrage against the Romanian families in the latest Belfast episode.

It is well know that Protestant areas will not accept anyone other than their co-religionists in their areas.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:04 AM

"What I don't want to see is a return to the 'policy clubs' that restricted the type of folk music they were prepared to accept"
I don't think they'll ever be quite like that again.
Of course every club has a policy, whether written or not. But I know what you mean...

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM

Ard Mhacha,

I hadn't wanted to jump to conclusions but I did suspect that BNP-UDA sympathies might have had a hand in it somewhere.


Having said that though, lets not get complacent about us Micks either.

Before Europe etc in the nineties, I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish was that we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.

How could we be racist with that kind of CV?

Well ... looks like money corrupts ...

Once the republic signed up to the EU and the money started rolling in, so the doors had to open to allow refugees and asylum seekers in, not to mention foreign labour who were attracted by the growing job market.


Well, suddenly I started hearing aunties and uncles, who had all been on "our" side, going on about "them" bringing "their crime" and taking "our jobs" etc ...

.... it was like watching a seventies British sitcom dubbed with Irish accents.


Anyway, one of the subtler points in my above post is to remind people that FAF doesn't have to be a solely British enterprise and could just as easily benefit from growing simultaneously in Ireland, the USA etc.

In which case the discussion about English folk might begin to seem less important.

Though I do understand and acknowledge the point that in the UK there is a specific campaign by the BNP to target English folk so the context is slightly different.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:21 AM

There was an item on the news this morning about racism in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:39 AM


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:02 AM

Before Europe etc in the nineties, I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish was that we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.
-lox

Yes, I know I said I wouldn't post to this thread anymore. But I have read some things about the subject about racism in Ireland.

Here's one online article:
http://www.rachelstavern.com/uncategorized/xenophobia-and-racism-in-ireland-affect-black-school-children.html

Here's a quote from that article:

..."Ireland is facing some of the same problems as other European countries. Many Irish people do not accept the new immigrants, and this is especially true for Black immigrants, who come mostly from West African countries like Nigeria."...

-snip-
Also see this excerpt from the same article:

[Regarding Black school children unable to find schools and thus-not purposely-attending all Black schools]

..."Part of the problem is that the Irish government allows schools to discriminate on the basis of religion, which ends up being a form of indirect institutional racism.

About 98 percent of schools are run by the Roman Catholic Church, and the law permits them to discriminate on the basis of whether a prospective student has a certificate confirming they were baptized into the faith. Some of the African applicants were Muslim, members of evangelical Protestant denominations or of no religious creed.
**

Also, lox, in order for this statement to be "more historically correct", you also have to exclude the racism attitudes and treatment that some Irish showed in the USA toward Black people in the 19th century during the Civil War and afterwards..

Here's the title of one book on the subject(which I haven't read):
Clear The Confederate Way! The Iris Irish In The Army Of Northern Virginiaby Kelly J. O'Grady

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Confederate-Irish-Northern-Virginia/dp/1882810422

(I don't know if that "Iris Irish") is a typo of the title or not,but that's how its found on that page).

Here's a review of that book which mentions titles of other books:

"The first book of its kind to examine the role of Irish Soldiers in the Army of Northern Virginia

Introduction by prominent Confederate historian Robert K. Krick
Includes rare and unpublished photos of Irish participants

Clear the Confederate Way! is the story of the Southern Irish who fought under Robert E. Lee. While most readers know about the Federal Irish Brigade, few appreciate the extent of the Irish contribution to the Southern war effort. More than a battle narrative, this ground-breaking book is a comprehensive exploration of the substantial Irish contribution to the Southern cause in battle, in Southern society, and in Confederate political circles. This well-written and exhaustively researched study. It is sure to interest both Civil War enthusiasts and many of todays forty million Irish Americans, especially at a time when public fascination with Irish culture and history grips the nation.

Kelly J. OGrady is a graduate of the College of William and Mary and a National Park Service historian at the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park. Also see Irish Rebels, Confederate Tigers (1882810163) and My Life in the Irish Brigade (1882810074). "

-snip-

And, yes, I know that all USA Confederate soldiers and supporters of the USA Confederacy weren't racist-and that some USA Union soldiers and USA Union supporters were racist.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM

"Anyway, one of the subtler points in my above post is to remind people that FAF doesn't have to be a solely British enterprise and could just as easily benefit from growing simultaneously in Ireland, the USA etc."

Spot on, Lox. In fact I'd say that we are duty bound to act against Fascism and Racism where/when ever we encounter it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM

Azizi,

"I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish ..."

Should really have read "the Irish have often claimed to be on the side of the underdog"

Generally this is true of most ordinary Irish folks who are able to empathise with the horrors of colonialism in other countries - things like bloody sunday, the "famine", the black and tans, Irish slaves in the carribbean etc parallel events perpetrated in other countries.

However, this openly worn badge of honour wasn't really tested until the nineties in the Irish Republic and now that it has been it has ben shown to have a few rusty bits. I have faith in the Irish though and I believe that those who are getting used to having different looking faces around will mature and develop in a positive way.

Maybe an Irish version of FAF could assist in such a healthy growth.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM

"In which case the discussion about English folk might begin to seem less important.

Though I do understand and acknowledge the point that in the UK there is a specific campaign by the BNP to target English folk so the context is slightly different."

Given that the whole idea is only just over a week old, I'm not really that enthusiastic about seeing it co-opted and transformed quite yet to fit a range of other agendas. The group was formed to raise awareness of a very specific issue. If others want to start groups with more general objectives, or even objectives more specific to their particular conditions, they are of course welcome to do so. We would support and stand in solidarity with those objectives and groups. But at this particular moment in time, the group exists for quite specific reasons and I hope that will remain the case at least until we've managed to get some work done.

Being a monoculture does not insulate against racism. Some of the Irish people I have known are among the most overtly racist people I have ever met - and I'm specifically thinking of Northern Irish Catholics, but I've known southern Irish people who were also quite intolerant. And it's not just since the EU and the Celtic Tiger inspired migration into Ireland. I was well integrated into the Irish ex-pat community in my home town (in New Jersey) in the 80s, sharing an apartment with a couple of girls from Lisburn and Belfast. The Irish blokes I knew were appallingly racist towards the African American people in my town. When one of them got seven kinds of shit kicked out of him because he was overheard referring to a group of them as "monkeys", I couldn't really bring myself to sympathise with his plight.

I remember doing my dissertation about community arts in Belfast about 10 years ago, and discussing with many people how "cultural diversity" there had a whole different meaning and context than in England - it really only referred to the two dominant communities. Sorting out the tensions between them took up so much time and so many resources that the authorities couldn't even begin to think about the racism which took place against the small, minority Chinese and Pakestani communities - but everyone knew that it happened.

The problem is, it's easy to romanticise an underdog culture, and one which has been under threat. It's wonderful seeing people embracing their cultural uniqueness and defending it against past attempts to dissolve it, as certainly did happen to Ireland in the past. But I think something sometimes happens in the collective psyches of such cultures, in which identity becomes so bound up with a particular definition of nationality that even small changes to that definition are seen as a threat. The recent debates on Irish citizenship around the time of the citizenship referendum a few years ago centred not just on the alleged threat to societal infrastructure (healthcare, schools etc) posed by an influx of immigrants, but also on what it meant to be Irish. Could children of African or Pakistani parents, born on Irish soil, really have the right to be called Irish? Wasn't being Irish more than that - a cultural heritage, a racial distintion in itself? Was there a difference between citizenship and nationality? While the legislation subsequently enacted made the distinction between jus solis (soil-based) and jus sanguinis (blood-based) citizenship rights for a variety of legal an emigration reasons, there almost seemed to be a subtext of defining what being Irish actually means, and an attempt to enshrine that cultural definition in law before the indigenous culture could become too diluted by external influences. And in practice, what it means is that, because of my Irish grandparents, I could claim Irish citizenship and go and live there, but a child born on Irish soil, despite being granted autiomatic citizenship, could find themselves deported along with their parents.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM

we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.

See Irish invasion of Scotland, How St Patrick was sold into slavery and the Irish six nations victory before you go down that road, Lox! Everyone has been at it at some time :-D

Lets not get sidetracked by what has happened in the past. Rather we concentrate on how to evict these parasites from our folk clubs!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Mick Tems
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:10 AM

I've signed up for Folk Against Fascism and I'm very proud to be doing so. (Incidentally, it was the UDA, hard-line protestants and loyalists, who were responsible for a week of racist attacks and verbal abuse on 20 Romanian families in Belfast.)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM

This Irish-American crap grinds, although I have many US relations I wouldn`t be proud of a country responsible for the death of countless thousands.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:47 AM

This Irish-American crap grinds, although I have many US relations I wouldn`t be proud of a country responsible for the death of countless thousands.

This is part of a Guardian article in January 2004,

Not far from the red, white and blue paving stones, the Ku Klux Klan graffiti and the "Chinks out" notices scratched outside south Belfast Chinese takeaways, Hua Long Lin was at home watching television when a man burst in and smashed a brick into his face. His wife, also in the room, was eight months pregnant. The couple had moved into the terrace two weeks before.

Neighbours expressed regret but one white family told a community worker they couldn't offer a Chinese family friendship in public or they would be "bricked" too.

"It's like Nazi Germany," they explained.

Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors.

Over 200 incidents were reported to police in the past nine months, although many victims don't bother complaining any more.

But in the past weeks, fear has deepened. Protestant working-class neighbourhoods are showing a pattern of orchestrated house attacks aimed at "ethnically cleansing" minority groups.

It is happening in streets run by loyalist paramilitaries, where every Chinese takeaway owner already pays protection money and racists have plentiful access to guns. The spectre of Catholics being systematically burnt out of similar areas during the Troubles hangs in the air.

So-called peace walls between Protestant and Catholic communities are graffitied with swastikas and signs that read "keep the streets white".

Both local unionists and Sinn Féin warned this week that someone is likely to be killed or burned alive in their home if the campaign does not stop. But there are no signs of it abating.

The Village in south Belfast is a run-down network of loyalist terraces where unemployment is high, union flags sag from lampposts and almost every family has a link to loyalist paramilitaries.

In post-peace process Northern Ireland, communities like this are more segregated than ever - through choice. Last year, five student houses, home to mixed Protestants and Catholics, were attacked until they were vacated. The siege mentality against "outsiders" is rife.

In the past eight weeks, pregnant Chinese women and new mothers have been forced out of terraces and over a dozen Chinese people have been attacked. The Chinese community, the largest ethnic minority in Northern Ireland, has been in Belfast since the 1960s, but there are rumours that a "quota" on new arrivals is being enforced. Last month, Ugandan and Romanian families were burned out.

Many elderly Chinese people do not now leave their homes after 3pm. The best they can hope for is an egg or ice-cream cone thrown in their face or their shopping bags stolen.

This week, in the shadow of a paramilitary mural, a six-foot plank was hurled through the front window of the home of a Pakistani woman who was eight months pregnant. The spot where she and her brother-in-law had eaten dinner 20 minutes before was sprayed with glass. They had moved into the house 12 hours earlier.

This hatred is on-going anyone living here knows where the racialists live, a pity the police don`t respond with the same enthusiasm as they would in Nationalists areas.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM

Azizi.
I live in County Cork Ireland.
In my village,there two primary schools one is protestant one is catholic,there is a scondary school five miles away that is non denominational.IN 4 Neighbouring villages,there are four schools two catholic, two protestant,there are school buses laid on so that children can go to the schools of their choice,their is no discrimation against any religion,in my area,I can only talk from my own experience.
my own experience refutes your claims.
Snail,I support you one hundred percent,if you wish to run a folk club your way,with a booking policy that books and promotes traditional music from the Islands of Britain[england scotland wales ireland],you have every right to do so without being called racist.
if an organiser wished to start a club in LEWES or anywhere,that booked solely norwegian or swedish traditional music,that would not be racist either.
promoters have the right to promote what they like,what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:33 AM

"what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds."

nor to allow performers to get away with victimizing members of their audience on race grounds or peddling racist ideas.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

"what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds."

add also.. "what they do not have the right to do is to exclude performers on race grounds."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

There is an article in today's Morning Star about Folk Against Fascism and the attempt by the BNP to infiltrate folk music.
IFOR


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

Captain Birdseye

what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds.

Lox

nor to allow performers to get away with victimizing members of their audience on race grounds or peddling racist ideas.

Is there any suggestion that either of these things happen in British folk clubs?

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM

It is not true to say that the Irish have never taken slaves. Even the young man who would later be St Patrick and found Christianity and a building culture in Ireland was taken by Irish reivers from England and sold into slavery following the Roman withdrawal from England. At that time slavery was commonplace in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM

No one else has mentioned them so I will.
Would the Spinners be a suitable group to book? They embraced world music before we even knew what it was.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM

Miskin. You'd have a job booking the Spinners nowadays. However, if you try mentioning the word fascist to Tony Davis, I suggest you stand back rapidly. Accommodating towards people on the far right he is not.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

The Spinners headlined the first big concert that I ever went to - The EFDSS Folk Festival at the Albert Hall in 1973. Great stuff!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM

"There is an article in today's Morning Star about Folk Against Fascism and the attempt by the BNP to infiltrate folk music."

Blimey. We haven't even done anything yet!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM

"Rifleman,how you doing with your Carter family repertoire?"

It's going very well indeed, right along with selections from The Band, Fairport Convention, the odd Steeleye Span, Sandy Denny (we have included The Quiet Joys of Brother into the songbook, the song is, of course credited to both Richard Farina and Sandy Denny) , oh we shouldn't forget music from the VoP collection, Sam Larner. Lizzie Higgins..my oh my but the list goes on.

There's been a delay in setting up the youtube channel, the sound quality isn'nt all it should be, but we're working on it (damn where's John Wood when you need him *LOL*)

""It can also feature a solely english lineup"
talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP"

I stand by what I,ve said about this.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:29 AM

Captain Birdseye, in your 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM post, you wrote that your own experiences regarding schools in your area refutes my claims.

For the record, I'm not making any claims. I just reposted excerpts of an article that I found online.

That said, I'm glad that your community's school are different than what is described in that article.

I'm disheartened to read about the racism and anti-immigrationism (if that's a word) in Ireland. Yesterday I talked to my daughter who was thinking of saving for a trip to Europe. I told her that she may not want to travel to the UK now given what I've been reading on this and similar threads, and in that article I just quoted from. Or at the very least, I told her that she needs to be alert and aware about hate groups such as the BNP.

What a shame.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM

An all-English lineup, singing all-English songs, in front of a Folk Against Fascism banner (if there was such a thing) - I think that would be a really powerful statement *against* the BNP's "interest" in folk music. Especially if not all of the English people involved were White.

The last thing we want to do is say "Fascists play exclusively-English music, therefore anti-Fascists should play music from everywhere". English traditional music is my heritage, forsaken milkmaids and valiant sailors and all - it's my heritage and they're not having it. Or rather, it's *our* heritage - it belongs to the people of England, not to some bunch of Fascists.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:48 AM

Azizi, these groups exist all over Europe - in some countries they are far more poweerful than in Britain. Advising your daughter not to come here because of the hate groups is as alarmist as the Japanese government cancelling my daughter's school visit there because of swine flu (which they have done).

Life is all about calculated risk. We talk about these things because they need to be talked about and exposed, but it is equally important to keep them in perspective. London, for example, is one of the most cosmopolitan cities she will ever have the chance to visit.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM

AZIZI, please don't scare you daughter into staying away from the U.K it is a beautiful and mostly tolerant country.

in general we treat our visitors with respect, i think she will be okay, she will just have to take the same precautions here as you would anywhere else.

if she does go to one of our festivals, she will find that on the whole we talk to anyone and everyone, she will be welcome.

take care

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

What Ruth said. Racism is borderline illegal in this country - government bodies & publicly-funded institutions (like universities) are under a legal obligation to promote equality of opportunity for all ethnic groups. If you crossed the UK off your list on the grounds that organised racist groups exist here, you'd also have to cross off France, Germany, Italy, the USA, er...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:54 PM

"An all-English lineup, singing all-English songs", proposes Working Radiush. So, OK in principle. In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from? Who is going to decide? A special committee? Do we permit Irish origin songs, if well-acclimatised in England? Etc etc. I think anybody who has given any serious thought to this matter has recognised the impossibilty of defining a concept like "all-English" song: or at least in the context of traditional song it is impossible. "Popular in England", sure, but I think some people are looking for a more Englishy Englishness than that.A very elusive quality.
So, if anyone can supply the list, I'm up for playing in the concert!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM

Okay. Thanks. I'm sure that I overreacted.

I knew that I needed time away from thinking about all of this. It's personal to me in ways that may not be as intense for many other people posting to this thread.

I should have listened to my spirit telling me to take a break from this subject for a while. I recognize that I'm lucky that I can take a break from thinking about racism. Other people living in the midst of things such as those Chinese immigrants in Ireland who were bricked (I didn't know what "bricked" meant until I read that article) whose story I read this morning aren't able to take such breaks.

For those who don't have to be involved in this struggle because you aren't directly targeted by the BNP and other hate groups, please know that I thank you from the bottom of my heart-and the top of it too.

I'm trying to stay upbeat but actually I'm teary eyed now.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM

greg stephens

In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from?

I expect the BNP have already done that. We don't want them to sing ANY of those songs. Can we try and remember the point of this exercise?

I like "well-acclimatised in England". As a friend of mine says, "We do play some Irish stuff but it's English by the time we've finished with it."

And while I'm here, what DID you mean by "If people want to run a white folk club..."?

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 01:19 PM

They're Roma people, actually. Strange you should think they are Chinese, given the powerful influence the People's Republic had on the old Romanian regime. It also goes to illustrate just how long the shadow of the past is in Ireland where there is a long and sad history of harassment of their own travelling people (or Tinkers, as they are termed).

There have always been those who will attack and cast blame on anyone a bit different from themselves for the ills and iniquities of society. Neo-facist groups are merely doing the work of the ruling class by stirring up the process of divide-and-rule through prejudice. The epitome of ignorance. ¡No pasarán!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 01:33 PM

In both Ireland and in Romania, I have seen at first hand the appalling treatment and the social exclusion of their respective wandering classes, sects, races, castes, call them what you will. The Roma have moved away from Romania in large numbers to try to find a better life elsewhere, but don't seem to be getting much of a welcome anywhere.

Yet who are the carriers of the traditional oral culture of both these countries and also the amongst the finest exponents of their singing and music?

Well, funnily enough, it if the travellers and the Roma respectively.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: foggers
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM

Azizi - I second what Ruth and jeddy have said. Our concerns on this thread are about a very specific minority whose political activity needs to be challenged and exposed for the racist bigotry it is.

But they do NOT speak for the vast majority of people here in GB.

Cities such as London have a rich multicultural identity and that can be a life changing experience - I hope your daughter does travel here and experience that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

funnily enough I have had racist abuse in Ireland,but two cases in 19 years,a miniscule proportion,the majority of people like the majority in England are decent, tolerant, pleasant people,who are prepared to live and let live.
furthermore,they dont go about making racist smears.
Rifleman,try standing by your Man/van,it makes more sense.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM

In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from? Who is going to decide?

In practice, anyone who wanted to decide would decide - and anyone who wanted to object to those people's decision could object to it. It's only in theory that there's any need to draw up a Definitive List of Definitively English songs - and since gigs don't happen in theory, I don't think it's a big problem.

I think we're answering different questions. Your question is "should we, as anti-fascist folkies, exclude non-English songs on principle?" and obviously the answer to that is No. But mine is "should we, as anti-fascist folkies, try to include non-English songs on principle?" - and I think the answer to that is No too.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM

Pip Radish: I am totally against including non-English songs, or non-English performers, if it is done "on principle". I am moderately in favour of including non-English songs, and non-English performers, because it is sociable and interesting and fun. I am also in favour of concentrating(some of the time) on music from a very narrow geographical range and cultural background: may I recommend the Boat Band's "A Trip to the Lakes" for an examplke of that, and the Boat Band's "Take Me Over the |Tide" and "Back Deck Blues" for an example of the other.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM

"Rifleman,try standing by your Man/van,it makes more sense."

My father says a person shouldn,t have a battle of wits with an unarmed man, so I won't


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:24 PM

Belfast racists target Romanian migrants

from ITN News

More than 100 Romanians have been forced out of their homes in Belfast by racists.

About 20 families were helped by police in the Lisburn Road area of the city and taken to a nearby church hall. They have since moved to a leisure centre that has been set up as a temporary shelter.

Police, community representatives, politicians and officials from a range of statutory agencies are to attend an emergency meeting in the city to see what can be done for the families.

The meeting at the Chinese Resource Centre on the city's Ormeau Road will discuss an action plan aimed at making the families feel safe to stay.

But many of the families have now vowed to leave Northern Ireland for good.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown joined condemnation of the attacks and said: "I hope the authorities are able to take all the action necessary to protect them."

Police and community leaders had earlier condemned racism in the area which culminated in an attack on a rally in support of the east European migrants.

Youths hurled bottles and made Nazi salutes at those taking part in the anti-racism rally.

The men, women and children, including a five-day-old baby girl, first sought shelter in a house where they thought they would be safe.

But the house was not big enough and a local church offered them the use of the church hall for as long as they need.

Pastor Malcolm Morgan said the church was happy to help. "It is a sad indictment of our society, but hopefully we can show them a different side to Northern Ireland and a caring side to Northern Ireland," he said.

A Police Service of Northern Ireland spokeswoman said: "Police in the south Belfast area assisted several organisations in the temporary relocation of a number of families following consultation with community representatives.

"Families moved to a near-by church and they are being cared for by the appropriate agencies."

Belfast Lord Mayor Naomi Long urged the south Belfast community to rally round their neighbours following the spate of racist attacks.

One of the Romanians, a mother of two who is now sheltering at the Ozone centre, said the targeted families were still petrified.

The woman said everyone was now adamant that they wanted to return to Romania.

She said attacks had been intensifying over the last two weeks but culminated in the racist thugs breaking into her house and threatening her and her children.

"We are OK, we are safe here now," she said in the leisure centre.

"But we want to go home because right now we are not safe here in Northern Ireland. We want to go back home to Romania, everybody right now does."

She said she wanted to leave Northern Ireland as soon as possible.

"I want to go home because I have here two kids and I want my kids to be safe."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

Rifleman see my postings up the Thread.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM

I was fully aware of your posting I personally don't have a problem with repeating an important piece of news. Enough said.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:53 PM

i can't beleive that so few people can make so much trouble.

i am disgusted.

it is such a shame that, for most of the decent people of northern ireland they can't stop this slur in their names. these poor people will always think of this time and blame the whole country.

thankyou for bringing it to our attention, this could be us if we let the BNP have their way.

btw greg, i love the "Englishy Englishness" that is the sort of langauge i understand..lol

we all seem to be agreeing that booking any artist just to make a point is unecessary and would just point out the fact we are trying too hard to make the point, we are NOT racist.

take care all
jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM

my gosh...history is presenting us with an opportunity right now. If you have an opportunity can you sing the wearing of the green? mg


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM

i am jealous, you can change colours. whinge... i want to do that !!

i just don't understand how to, if you explain it, it sounds complicated.

jade x x lol


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:41 PM

I took delivery of the first batch of 3000 stickers today, by the way. They will be available at Big Session this weekend.

We have a meeting on Friday to decide how we're distributing the merch, so they should be available to buy very soon.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM

Treewind wrote

I agree with most of that post. However I am also a "English Music" enthusiast and perpetrator of one of those "anything but Irish" sessions


If you actually read the post with which you mainly agree, and accept that such terms as 'Irish' or 'English' ate largely meaningless, ( especially as what is now called 'English music' consists mainly of German and Danish Polkas (played on German instruments) that displaced English reels and Jigs.

In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

FFS, please stop to think about the differences between the terms: -

Romanians
Romanies
Roma
romers
Gipsies
Travellers
Tinkers
Didiquoi (or Didikai)


No, I wont be singing "the Wearing of the Green" - any more than I'd expect a Klezmer band to play an instrumental of "The Ash Grove" (Die Lindenbaum). Or than I'd expect a visiting German group to sing any number of WWI or WWII British Army songs, or a French visiting player to play "Swaggering Boney".

Yes, I do think there is a point in my singing "English" "Folk" song, in principle. Because someone ought to. And I'm (as far as I know) English.

But I will also sing (as you should know) other songs too.

The "English" songs I sing do not belong to the lunatic right. The international and/or religious hostilities of which they (or some of them) speak are those of their respective times. They do not speak of setting person against person on the basis of colour.


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