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Folk Against Fascism

SPB-Cooperator 18 Jun 09 - 02:47 AM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Jun 09 - 02:53 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 03:00 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 03:01 AM
GUEST,tom bliss 18 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM
Phil Edwards 18 Jun 09 - 03:10 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM
theleveller 18 Jun 09 - 04:57 AM
Andy Jackson 18 Jun 09 - 05:54 AM
Andy Jackson 18 Jun 09 - 05:55 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Jun 09 - 06:12 AM
Andy Jackson 18 Jun 09 - 06:19 AM
Jim McLean 18 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 06:28 AM
Banjiman 18 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM
Tug the Cox 18 Jun 09 - 07:21 AM
theleveller 18 Jun 09 - 07:51 AM
Lox 18 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM
Stringsinger 18 Jun 09 - 10:12 AM
Lox 18 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 10:39 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 09 - 12:10 PM
ard mhacha 18 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 09 - 12:48 PM
jeddy 18 Jun 09 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM
The Borchester Echo 18 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,jock 18 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM
theleveller 18 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM
Banjiman 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM
curmudgeon 18 Jun 09 - 05:16 PM
Stringsinger 18 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM
jeddy 18 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM
Tug the Cox 18 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM
Lox 18 Jun 09 - 09:16 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:47 AM

Is this what BMP mean by voluntary repatriation?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:53 AM

typo BNP mean


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:00 AM

No intention of being rude here - but as I've noticed a couple of times on this thread that on occasion, what I presume are American posters who may not know who they are (?), there have been mistaken 'soundalike' references to the BNP - such as BMP or BNC for e.g.

Just to clarify, for those who may not be aware, BNP is shorthand for the "British National Party."

See Wiki entry for BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:01 AM

Bah - you got there before me! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,tom bliss
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM

once again, please write to your mp if you feel that including trad arts etc in the school curriculum is good way of heading off the bnp (and a good thing anyway).

this is now before the minister for schools and learning, and I could do with some back up.

thanks


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:10 AM

In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?

Not really. One meant that Irish people weren't welcome - and that there were only a few places where they were. The other means that Irish tunes aren't welcomed - and there are lots of places where they are.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM

"In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?"


No.


The cultural contexts could not be more different. Unfortunately, the commercial success of Irish music and Plastic Paddy-style pubs cropping up everywhere in the 80s and 90s resulted in Irish music having a cultural dominance over English music - in England. As a result, many English people, as has been said, think that any music with a fiddle in it must be Irish. I think Anahata's response is not dissimilar to that of a lot of people interested in English music - they are simply trying to create for it a bit of breathing space.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:57 AM

"I took delivery of the first batch of 3000 stickers today, by the way"

I've actually made some of my own using the logo on myspace and now have them in the front windows, in the caravan windows and in the car. They are a bit rough but do the trick - I wish I'd had some before the election as my house is directly opposite the polling station.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:54 AM

I just popped in to FAF on Myspace.
When you have 10 minutes and a box of tissues handy go there scroll down to a video "Tamlyn retold".

Very powerful!!

FAF andy

P.S. Why not distribute Stickers through Folk Clubs, several orgfanisers are already signed up?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:55 AM

Oops, I seem to have invented a new word "orgfanisers". In fact I quite like it, could it catch on?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM

Miskin Man:


Lots of groups and individuals ave said they want merch, so we need an infrastructure for distribution which allows us to do this effectively, and also allows us to recoup the costs of making the merch so that we can make more. This could constitute trading. We're meeting tomorrow to discuss how best to handle it.

Once we've got some sort of virtual marketplace, anyone, including folk club organisers, will be able to access it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:12 AM

Set up FAF Ltd as a company limited by guarantee. Try to get it registered as a charity - probably difficult as its objectives are political, but you could limit its purposes to educational and do the politicking through a sister company... you might get away with that.

Create a subsidiary FAF Trading Ltd (it will register for VAT) that trades and covenants all its profits to FAF so it doesn't have to pay tax.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:19 AM

Just get them made, tell us how much you want and drop them in the post. Happens on Ebay every day.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM

Folk against Polaris
This album was actually written in 1960 and produced for Folkways in the USA by Pete Seeger.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:28 AM

I'm sure it does. But given that the group is already being targeted by fascists, I want to make sure we do everything properly. There will be people looking for opportunities to trip us up.



Very useful, Richard. Is this how we get around paying VAT? It will be a completely non-profit organisation, and I wanted to make sure we weren't paying tax as if we were a commercial organisation.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM

Ruth/ Joan (I get confused!),

We're keen to put on a gig at Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club under the FaF banner...... can we just go ahead and do this or do we need approval/ guidance etc from the organisation?

Please can you keep us informed about Merch distribution as you get it sorted?

Thanks

Paul


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:21 AM

ubject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM

"In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?"


No.


Well there's a suprise.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:51 AM

"We're keen to put on a gig at Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club under the FaF banner......"

Great idea, Paul. Count us in.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM

Azizi,

Something to bear in mind is that the two BNP MEP's were elected in Yorkshire and the North west.

Map of results

You can see from this map where the two MEP's were elected, butmore importantly you can get a perspective on how deep the rot has set in - and it hasn't set in that deep.

There are only 2 reps out of 70 who are from the BNP so in perspective we still live in a safe free society.

So why all the fuss?

Because one Nazi in office is one too many and that spark must be starved of oxygen lest it burst into flame and burn our society down.

Its a bit like dropping a cigarette in the woods - people probably do it every day and the woods don't burn down, but there is always the risk that it might catch - and when it does the results are catastrophic.

So we are making a big noise while it is a speck because we care about our democracy and will not allow them into power, but on the other hand - if your daughter is sensible she will be less at risk of a racist assault than she will be of getting mugged.

And that could probably happen where you are just as easily as here.

And if that stopped us travelling we would all live and die in experiential poverty.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

"Well there's a suprise. "

Not really sure what that's meant to mean. As I mentioned up the thread, my heritage is half Irish. I'm the grandchild of immigrants on both sides, and I'm an immigrant myself. I have no innate prejudice against the Irish. But I don't see any material similarity between the two situations you describe, for the reasons I gave. Context is everything.


Hi Paul,

I've got this meeting tomorrow where I'm hoping that all of these issues can be discussed. I'm going straight to the Big Session from there, so if you can hold tight till Monday for an answer, it would be great. I don't think organisations like Love Music Hate Racism "control" the events that are held under their banner as such, but there ought to be some uniformity of message, and probably a bit of quality and stock control when it comes to producing and distributing merch. These are all issues we need to iron out round a table, so if you can hang tight till Monday, it would be great.

Joan


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:12 AM

This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized.
You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate
anyone from their mind.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM

"I don't think organisations like Love Music Hate Racism "control" the events that are held under their banner as such, but there ought to be some uniformity of message"

It could be worth considering that at a Love Music Hate Racism event, like the old Anti Nazi League carnivals, its about using agreeable bands (most of them) to attract people to show solidarity against racism.

The uniformity of message is the FAF manifesto and the bands get people along to listen.

In the case of FAF you have the extra point of reclaiming english folk from the nazi's, but does there have to be a unity of message in terms of performance content?

Is that even what you meant?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:39 AM

"In the case of FAF you have the extra point of reclaiming english folk from the nazi's"

Well, that's pretty much what I meant. But as you'll note from this thread, the phrase Folk Against Fascism can be interpreted in myriad different ways...I think it's quite important that we maintain the prominence of that central message, and also a principle of non-violent engagement. Other than that, the world is really your popsicle stand as far as I'm concerned.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM

"Is this what BNP mean by voluntary repatriation"

"voluntary repatriation" read if you won't go on your own we'll make damned sure you DO go.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM

This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized. You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate anyone from their mind.

Uniting against Fascism and Racism does not mean the politicisation of folk music; I know many right-of-centre good-hearted folkies who despise the BNP and all that they stand for but who feel equally affronted by the almost universal adoption of Folk by the Left. There are crucial exceptions of course - Peter Bellamy was one such; whatever his father's political allegiances might have been, one feels sure PB would have been as repulsed by the BNP as are our Tory voting non-folkie neighbours. It's interesting to read what Dick Gaughan has to say on BP's politics - see Here - and one would hope political tolerance cuts both ways in these troubled times.

Opposing the BNP is one thing, disassociating folk music from Racism and Fascism is quite another. It is not a matter of politicisation though, on the contrary - it is a matter an all inclusive non-politicisation whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

alot of audiences simply don't want politics mixed with their music, it's the audiences who're paying the performers fees. I'll abide by what the audience wants thanks.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 12:10 PM

Here's that last post again with the HTML corrected:

This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized. You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate anyone from their mind.

Uniting against Fascism and Racism does not mean the politicisation of folk music; I know many right-of-centre good-hearted folkies who despise the BNP and all that they stand for but who feel equally affronted by the almost universal adoption of Folk by the Left. There are crucial exceptions of course - Peter Bellamy was one such; whatever his father's political allegiances might have been, one feels sure PB would have been as repulsed by the BNP as are our Tory voting non-folkie neighbours. It's interesting to read what Dick Gaughan has to say on BP's politics - see Here - and one would hope such personal & political tolerance cuts both ways in troubled times such as these.

Opposing the BNP is one thing, disassociating folk music from Racism and Fascism is quite another. It is not a matter of politicisation though, on the contrary - it is a matter an all inclusive non-politicisation whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

For the last time on this Thread, the people responsible for the violence against the Romanians were Loyalists,UDA,Protestants, this is without any argument here in the north of Ireland.
This has been going on from these people arrived and as for singing The Wearing of the Green, there is as much chance of these Loyalist thugs singing that, as to hear Paisley sing `God bless our Pope`.
I live in a small street of 36 houses in the street are a number of houses occupied by, Ukranians in No2,Polish 3, Pakistani 8, Polish 10,Polish 15, Romanian 16,Polish 20, and Polish 31. The emigrants have had nothing but help from the locals, they would be astonished to read some of the ill-informed opinions on this Site.

This wouldn`t happen in a Loyalist Protestant street, the town has a population of around 30,000, the emigrants are almost all living in Catholic Nationalist disricts, and this is the case in all of the towns in the north.
Those Belfast Romanians should have been advised before they moved into that part of south Belfast, they are now moved to a Nationalist area for their own safety.

So please check out your facts before accusing all of us in the north of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 12:48 PM

"....whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion. "
Sorry, folk song has always contained its fair share of politics, be it Jacobite, anti-establishment, fight for better conditions, recognition of and opposition to class differences, struggles for national independance, pro-industrial action, support for and opposition to military activity (want a list of American Civil War songs - either side available) - right down to children's songs and election chants "Vote-vote-vote for....." whoever, or the more sophisticated "Harry was a Bolshie"). Perhaps you meant to say 'left political opinion'?
As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game. Try macrame (was going to say chess, but it don't come more political than that).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:08 PM

ard mhacha, idon't think i have seen anyone say that it is the whole of northern ireland. i have said that those poor people will think of it as a country wide problem, but then if that had happened to you, you would probably think the same.

this is a case of a few spoiling it for everyone.

take care

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM

As an Irish-American I find the term "Plastic Paddy" to be very offensive..way more offensive than what they could have come up with in 1870. I would ask that you at least put parentheses around it to distance yourself from an offensive term. mg


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM

What's wrong with the term "Plastic Paddy Pubs"? We have plenty of tacky fake Irish theme pubs in the UK. And they have exactly *zero* to do with Irish culture. It just describes a type of 'commercial branding' which cashes in on the worst imaginable tacky pastiche of Irishness.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

It's the Plastic Paddy pubs with green beer, fake shamrock and fields upon fields of sodding Athenry that are deeply offensive and the ultimate dumbing down of all things Irish, especially the culture. No-one mentioned anything about Hibernian citizens being manufactured from said polymer.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

I'm not quite sure why you find Plastic Paddy so offensive. It refers to anything that is excessively commercialised or completely false, such as the chains of Irish-themed pubs which sprung up in England about 10 years ago.

If you really think that this is more offensive than the Irish stereotypes that were around in the 1870s, I think you might be ever so slightly over-sensitive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,jock
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM

Lox posted " ............Something to bear in mind is that the two BNP MEP's were elected in Yorkshire and the North west .."

For the benefit of our friends from outside the UK, could I point out that Lox was referring to the North West region of England, not Britain, although he has only mentioned Britain in his postings. A bit confusing for our foreign cousins.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM

As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game.

I don't think so, Jim; out of a personal repertoire of some 300 odd Traditional English Language Folk Songs not a single one of them is in any way shape or form party political. I might grin as I intone the wishful jingoism of Bellamy's setting of Kipling's The Land despite the erroneous left-wing gloss put on it by certain singers; as ever, I fear, context is all. Fact is, I know just as many Right-Wing Traddies as I do Left; Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie, and he was quite possibly the only world-class Genius the Folk Revival ever produced. As for myself, I choose not to get involved one way or the other; we all have our opinions (such as mine about the genius of Peter Bellamy) and we all are all welcome to them.   

The defeat of Racism & Fascism is something very different and won't be achieved by the factionalism & in-fighting that, as already touched upon, not only typifies the left, but also accounts for its ultimate impotence. Racism & Fascism will not be defeated by singing Folk Songs (much less protest songs) but if by showing solidarity against the BNP Folkies & Traddies - be they Left, Right, Centre or Whatever - can remove this unwelcome stain from our precious musical & cultural heritage then that only ever be a good thing. If that's what Folk against Fascism is about, then I'm happy to be part of it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM

SO'P
Oh, come on - you didn't mention 'party' political.
Even so, our repertoires are full of political songs, either explicitly supporting a specific political cause, or by implication, attacking the establishment.
You appear to be suggesting the suspension of political opinion until the fight against fascism is won - life ain't like that. Worthy causes are like number 9 buses, you win one and along comes another - Mosely, Second front, Korea, Cuba, CND, Viet Nam, Greece, Chile, the miners strike, Turkey, Iran..........
Folk song records our history - and that includes political and social struggle.
"It refers to anything that is excessively commercialised or completely false"
It also refers to people who adopt an 'Oirish' accent and supposed 'T'ick' mannerisms, just as offensive and racist as the term itself.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM

It might be worthwhile to recognise the difference between specific 'political songs' or particular 'bodies of political songs' within the English folk tradition as a whole, and the inappropriate *politicising of songs* and indeed the *politicising of* the English folk tradition as a whole.

I fear I'm not expressing this well. But while there may have always been political songs which existed in context to their times, it is the retrospective politicising of the English tradition as a whole, which I think needs to be fully avoided.

I also think that is precisely the purpose of the current campaign with respect to the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

SO'P, don't waste your time, Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it (I find them to be just as offensive as any racist), they only see what they want to see and expect everyone else to see the same thing and in the same way
We all do what we can and do it to the best of our abilities and that's the best we can hope for


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM

"As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game."

Couldn't agree more, there, Jim. Take away the politcs from folk music and you've bugger all left.

"Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it."

And what sort would that be? Presumably the sort who aren't prepared to take your gobshite. Well, I'm one of that sort. Sorry to offend your right wing sensibilities (actually, no, I'm not)but, as Jim says, you're in the wrong place here - what you want to see is your own navel and, quite frankly, for the rest of us, it ain't a pretty sight.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM

[ SO'P, don't waste your time, Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it (I find them to be just as offensive as any racist),]QUOTE Rifleman.
so now someone[ is this MIKE HOCKENHULL ?] is saying Jim Carroll is as offensive as any racist [which equals THE BNP].
I find that very offensive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM

Ruth/ Joan,

No probs I'll wait until Monday. Just let me know how the land lies.

Thanks

Paul


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM

"Sorry to offend your right wing sensibilities"
*LOL
I was waiting for that; what took you so long...navel gazing were you? *LOL* I've fought racism all my life, and not because I have a choice, being a non white immigrant, I don't, so kindly spare me your white middle class patronising

I,m neither right nor left, both offend me equally..

You very likely don't sing the ballads.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: curmudgeon
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:16 PM

Being a Yank with lots of friends across the pond, I've been following this thread as an education. But please put me down as one of Jim Carroll's "sort' - Tom Hall


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM

I enjoy Jim Carrol's posts and I think he knows a lot about what is important in folk music.

Part of what will defeat the racism of the BNP is the in-depth knowledge and interest in traditional music of all kinds. The old style ballad singing is an antidote to those who attempt to use folk music as a kind of phony nationalism. The power of that music defies
those who would claim it as a pretext for jingoism.

I think art can transcend partisan politics but with the idea that the expression of art whenever it is made has to be political. It affects the social order.

I used to be one who thought that a song could not change a view or belief. I'm not so sure anymore about that. Songs are very powerful statements that can transform society.

When I hear the old ballads, I am moved and transformed into thinking that the human
condition is variable and adaptable. One of the powers of folk music is that it is historically adaptable to changing times. The iconographic themes of the old songs limn
the mores of past times as stories and as Joseph Campbell has pointed out, humanity needs myths to teach us to appreciate our lives.

This is why traditional ballads will always be with us.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM

"I think art can transcend partisan politics"
This says it all really. Whatever our individual political beliefs may be, we usually manage to come together and enjoy our music. This does not mean we put our beliefs on hold, we simply don't let them get in the way.
As a couple of Brits, Pat and I visited this part of Ireland at least once a year, often twice, for over thirty years - this included throughout the troubles. I found it incredibly moving to walk down the street in Miltown Malbay where many of the houses were bedecked with black flags mourning the deaths of the hunger strikers in the North, and go into a bar session made up of Catholics, Protestants, atheists like ourselves.... whatever, and be greeted as friends. We never attempted to hide who we were or what we believed; we didn't have to - music was a wonderful coming together.
As I said, politics, general or specific are a vital part of our tradition and the repertoire would be very much impoverished if it became a no-go area.
Where do you stop with not 'offending' people?
We've already lost chunks of our repertoire because of some people being (IMO) oversensitive about (percieved) sexist songs.
No more whaling songs, the hunting repertoire, Irish nationalist songs, the wonderful erotic songs, the jingoist pieces praising 'Brave Nelson' - it's a slippery slope to anodynism (is that a word?) folks.
There are, I believe, lines over which you don't step, but personally I have seldom seen singers come anywhere near it in the 40-odd years I've been involved. Let's leave it to the singers before we start reaching for the blue-pencil.
Incidentally, it is largely down to the left that we have access to most of our music - Lloyd, MacColl, Lomax (even Bobby D was considered a 'pinko' once upon a time). MacColl's best songs, some of the best the revival produced, IMO again, came directly from his political beliefs. Topic Records was started by the left wing (largely Communist) Workers Music Association.
Fraternally yours,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM

jim, i agree that people can take take things too far.. flipant example, we are or were into animal rights and someone started to sing dog in a microwave, some people thought that we might get upset over this, the truth is it's one of the funniest song i have ever heard.
the same as songs about fox hunting and whaling, if we got upset about every song that wouldn't fit into todays society then we would have very little to sing, although it would take out the "i don't know the words " problem. lol so maybe it's an option!!??
old folk songs are not about the people today they are reminding us of a different time with different values.
we should never lose sight of where we as a nation come from.
how can we improve our future without knowing the mistakes made in the past?

i don't see how we can put some of our political differences aside though,when you know that the person you are singing with, wishes to destroy all you hold dear, i think some differences are just too big to ignored and swept aside by singing together.
although i think music brings people together and creates , if only for the evening a sense of family and belonging.

much like i feel coming on here, we may argue amongst ourselves but when an outsider comes on and starts attacking people we stick together, dmr? of course anyone is welcome. but it is how they are recieved that makes the difference.

thankyou for accepting me and on the whole making me welcome, i know i have been accepted when people start taking the piss!!!

take care all and have a wonderful night

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM

'm not quite sure why you find Plastic Paddy so offensive.


   A not bad oufit in Exmouth, two of whom are irish, call themselves the 'Plastic Pady's' ( sic), because they thought it represented the pop Irish stuff they do.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 09:16 PM

Depends who says it and their tone.

Identity is important and if somebody questions your identity based on false criteria it can be offensive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM

Thanks for that Jade - as far as I'm concerned, friendly banter oils the wheels of the world.
During the 'troubles' here there was much hatred and resentment, but it was reserved for those really responsible - the politicians and the fanatics - long may that continue to be so.
Jim Carroll


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