Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM

AZIZI, please don't scare you daughter into staying away from the U.K it is a beautiful and mostly tolerant country.

in general we treat our visitors with respect, i think she will be okay, she will just have to take the same precautions here as you would anywhere else.

if she does go to one of our festivals, she will find that on the whole we talk to anyone and everyone, she will be welcome.

take care

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:48 AM

Azizi, these groups exist all over Europe - in some countries they are far more poweerful than in Britain. Advising your daughter not to come here because of the hate groups is as alarmist as the Japanese government cancelling my daughter's school visit there because of swine flu (which they have done).

Life is all about calculated risk. We talk about these things because they need to be talked about and exposed, but it is equally important to keep them in perspective. London, for example, is one of the most cosmopolitan cities she will ever have the chance to visit.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM

An all-English lineup, singing all-English songs, in front of a Folk Against Fascism banner (if there was such a thing) - I think that would be a really powerful statement *against* the BNP's "interest" in folk music. Especially if not all of the English people involved were White.

The last thing we want to do is say "Fascists play exclusively-English music, therefore anti-Fascists should play music from everywhere". English traditional music is my heritage, forsaken milkmaids and valiant sailors and all - it's my heritage and they're not having it. Or rather, it's *our* heritage - it belongs to the people of England, not to some bunch of Fascists.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:29 AM

Captain Birdseye, in your 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM post, you wrote that your own experiences regarding schools in your area refutes my claims.

For the record, I'm not making any claims. I just reposted excerpts of an article that I found online.

That said, I'm glad that your community's school are different than what is described in that article.

I'm disheartened to read about the racism and anti-immigrationism (if that's a word) in Ireland. Yesterday I talked to my daughter who was thinking of saving for a trip to Europe. I told her that she may not want to travel to the UK now given what I've been reading on this and similar threads, and in that article I just quoted from. Or at the very least, I told her that she needs to be alert and aware about hate groups such as the BNP.

What a shame.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM

"Rifleman,how you doing with your Carter family repertoire?"

It's going very well indeed, right along with selections from The Band, Fairport Convention, the odd Steeleye Span, Sandy Denny (we have included The Quiet Joys of Brother into the songbook, the song is, of course credited to both Richard Farina and Sandy Denny) , oh we shouldn't forget music from the VoP collection, Sam Larner. Lizzie Higgins..my oh my but the list goes on.

There's been a delay in setting up the youtube channel, the sound quality isn'nt all it should be, but we're working on it (damn where's John Wood when you need him *LOL*)

""It can also feature a solely english lineup"
talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP"

I stand by what I,ve said about this.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM

"There is an article in today's Morning Star about Folk Against Fascism and the attempt by the BNP to infiltrate folk music."

Blimey. We haven't even done anything yet!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

The Spinners headlined the first big concert that I ever went to - The EFDSS Folk Festival at the Albert Hall in 1973. Great stuff!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM

Miskin. You'd have a job booking the Spinners nowadays. However, if you try mentioning the word fascist to Tony Davis, I suggest you stand back rapidly. Accommodating towards people on the far right he is not.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM

No one else has mentioned them so I will.
Would the Spinners be a suitable group to book? They embraced world music before we even knew what it was.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM

It is not true to say that the Irish have never taken slaves. Even the young man who would later be St Patrick and found Christianity and a building culture in Ireland was taken by Irish reivers from England and sold into slavery following the Roman withdrawal from England. At that time slavery was commonplace in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

Captain Birdseye

what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds.

Lox

nor to allow performers to get away with victimizing members of their audience on race grounds or peddling racist ideas.

Is there any suggestion that either of these things happen in British folk clubs?

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

There is an article in today's Morning Star about Folk Against Fascism and the attempt by the BNP to infiltrate folk music.
IFOR

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

"what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds."

add also.. "what they do not have the right to do is to exclude performers on race grounds."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:33 AM

"what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds."

nor to allow performers to get away with victimizing members of their audience on race grounds or peddling racist ideas.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM

Azizi.
I live in County Cork Ireland.
In my village,there two primary schools one is protestant one is catholic,there is a scondary school five miles away that is non denominational.IN 4 Neighbouring villages,there are four schools two catholic, two protestant,there are school buses laid on so that children can go to the schools of their choice,their is no discrimation against any religion,in my area,I can only talk from my own experience.
my own experience refutes your claims.
Snail,I support you one hundred percent,if you wish to run a folk club your way,with a booking policy that books and promotes traditional music from the Islands of Britain[england scotland wales ireland],you have every right to do so without being called racist.
if an organiser wished to start a club in LEWES or anywhere,that booked solely norwegian or swedish traditional music,that would not be racist either.
promoters have the right to promote what they like,what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:47 AM

This Irish-American crap grinds, although I have many US relations I wouldn`t be proud of a country responsible for the death of countless thousands.

This is part of a Guardian article in January 2004,

Not far from the red, white and blue paving stones, the Ku Klux Klan graffiti and the "Chinks out" notices scratched outside south Belfast Chinese takeaways, Hua Long Lin was at home watching television when a man burst in and smashed a brick into his face. His wife, also in the room, was eight months pregnant. The couple had moved into the terrace two weeks before.

Neighbours expressed regret but one white family told a community worker they couldn't offer a Chinese family friendship in public or they would be "bricked" too.

"It's like Nazi Germany," they explained.

Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors.

Over 200 incidents were reported to police in the past nine months, although many victims don't bother complaining any more.

But in the past weeks, fear has deepened. Protestant working-class neighbourhoods are showing a pattern of orchestrated house attacks aimed at "ethnically cleansing" minority groups.

It is happening in streets run by loyalist paramilitaries, where every Chinese takeaway owner already pays protection money and racists have plentiful access to guns. The spectre of Catholics being systematically burnt out of similar areas during the Troubles hangs in the air.

So-called peace walls between Protestant and Catholic communities are graffitied with swastikas and signs that read "keep the streets white".

Both local unionists and Sinn Féin warned this week that someone is likely to be killed or burned alive in their home if the campaign does not stop. But there are no signs of it abating.

The Village in south Belfast is a run-down network of loyalist terraces where unemployment is high, union flags sag from lampposts and almost every family has a link to loyalist paramilitaries.

In post-peace process Northern Ireland, communities like this are more segregated than ever - through choice. Last year, five student houses, home to mixed Protestants and Catholics, were attacked until they were vacated. The siege mentality against "outsiders" is rife.

In the past eight weeks, pregnant Chinese women and new mothers have been forced out of terraces and over a dozen Chinese people have been attacked. The Chinese community, the largest ethnic minority in Northern Ireland, has been in Belfast since the 1960s, but there are rumours that a "quota" on new arrivals is being enforced. Last month, Ugandan and Romanian families were burned out.

Many elderly Chinese people do not now leave their homes after 3pm. The best they can hope for is an egg or ice-cream cone thrown in their face or their shopping bags stolen.

This week, in the shadow of a paramilitary mural, a six-foot plank was hurled through the front window of the home of a Pakistani woman who was eight months pregnant. The spot where she and her brother-in-law had eaten dinner 20 minutes before was sprayed with glass. They had moved into the house 12 hours earlier.

This hatred is on-going anyone living here knows where the racialists live, a pity the police don`t respond with the same enthusiasm as they would in Nationalists areas.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM

This Irish-American crap grinds, although I have many US relations I wouldn`t be proud of a country responsible for the death of countless thousands.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Mick Tems
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:10 AM

I've signed up for Folk Against Fascism and I'm very proud to be doing so. (Incidentally, it was the UDA, hard-line protestants and loyalists, who were responsible for a week of racist attacks and verbal abuse on 20 Romanian families in Belfast.)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM

we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.

See Irish invasion of Scotland, How St Patrick was sold into slavery and the Irish six nations victory before you go down that road, Lox! Everyone has been at it at some time :-D

Lets not get sidetracked by what has happened in the past. Rather we concentrate on how to evict these parasites from our folk clubs!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM

"In which case the discussion about English folk might begin to seem less important.

Though I do understand and acknowledge the point that in the UK there is a specific campaign by the BNP to target English folk so the context is slightly different."

Given that the whole idea is only just over a week old, I'm not really that enthusiastic about seeing it co-opted and transformed quite yet to fit a range of other agendas. The group was formed to raise awareness of a very specific issue. If others want to start groups with more general objectives, or even objectives more specific to their particular conditions, they are of course welcome to do so. We would support and stand in solidarity with those objectives and groups. But at this particular moment in time, the group exists for quite specific reasons and I hope that will remain the case at least until we've managed to get some work done.

Being a monoculture does not insulate against racism. Some of the Irish people I have known are among the most overtly racist people I have ever met - and I'm specifically thinking of Northern Irish Catholics, but I've known southern Irish people who were also quite intolerant. And it's not just since the EU and the Celtic Tiger inspired migration into Ireland. I was well integrated into the Irish ex-pat community in my home town (in New Jersey) in the 80s, sharing an apartment with a couple of girls from Lisburn and Belfast. The Irish blokes I knew were appallingly racist towards the African American people in my town. When one of them got seven kinds of shit kicked out of him because he was overheard referring to a group of them as "monkeys", I couldn't really bring myself to sympathise with his plight.

I remember doing my dissertation about community arts in Belfast about 10 years ago, and discussing with many people how "cultural diversity" there had a whole different meaning and context than in England - it really only referred to the two dominant communities. Sorting out the tensions between them took up so much time and so many resources that the authorities couldn't even begin to think about the racism which took place against the small, minority Chinese and Pakestani communities - but everyone knew that it happened.

The problem is, it's easy to romanticise an underdog culture, and one which has been under threat. It's wonderful seeing people embracing their cultural uniqueness and defending it against past attempts to dissolve it, as certainly did happen to Ireland in the past. But I think something sometimes happens in the collective psyches of such cultures, in which identity becomes so bound up with a particular definition of nationality that even small changes to that definition are seen as a threat. The recent debates on Irish citizenship around the time of the citizenship referendum a few years ago centred not just on the alleged threat to societal infrastructure (healthcare, schools etc) posed by an influx of immigrants, but also on what it meant to be Irish. Could children of African or Pakistani parents, born on Irish soil, really have the right to be called Irish? Wasn't being Irish more than that - a cultural heritage, a racial distintion in itself? Was there a difference between citizenship and nationality? While the legislation subsequently enacted made the distinction between jus solis (soil-based) and jus sanguinis (blood-based) citizenship rights for a variety of legal an emigration reasons, there almost seemed to be a subtext of defining what being Irish actually means, and an attempt to enshrine that cultural definition in law before the indigenous culture could become too diluted by external influences. And in practice, what it means is that, because of my Irish grandparents, I could claim Irish citizenship and go and live there, but a child born on Irish soil, despite being granted autiomatic citizenship, could find themselves deported along with their parents.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM

Azizi,

"I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish ..."

Should really have read "the Irish have often claimed to be on the side of the underdog"

Generally this is true of most ordinary Irish folks who are able to empathise with the horrors of colonialism in other countries - things like bloody sunday, the "famine", the black and tans, Irish slaves in the carribbean etc parallel events perpetrated in other countries.

However, this openly worn badge of honour wasn't really tested until the nineties in the Irish Republic and now that it has been it has ben shown to have a few rusty bits. I have faith in the Irish though and I believe that those who are getting used to having different looking faces around will mature and develop in a positive way.

Maybe an Irish version of FAF could assist in such a healthy growth.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM

"Anyway, one of the subtler points in my above post is to remind people that FAF doesn't have to be a solely British enterprise and could just as easily benefit from growing simultaneously in Ireland, the USA etc."

Spot on, Lox. In fact I'd say that we are duty bound to act against Fascism and Racism where/when ever we encounter it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:02 AM

Before Europe etc in the nineties, I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish was that we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.
-lox

Yes, I know I said I wouldn't post to this thread anymore. But I have read some things about the subject about racism in Ireland.

Here's one online article:
http://www.rachelstavern.com/uncategorized/xenophobia-and-racism-in-ireland-affect-black-school-children.html

Here's a quote from that article:

..."Ireland is facing some of the same problems as other European countries. Many Irish people do not accept the new immigrants, and this is especially true for Black immigrants, who come mostly from West African countries like Nigeria."...

-snip-
Also see this excerpt from the same article:

[Regarding Black school children unable to find schools and thus-not purposely-attending all Black schools]

..."Part of the problem is that the Irish government allows schools to discriminate on the basis of religion, which ends up being a form of indirect institutional racism.

About 98 percent of schools are run by the Roman Catholic Church, and the law permits them to discriminate on the basis of whether a prospective student has a certificate confirming they were baptized into the faith. Some of the African applicants were Muslim, members of evangelical Protestant denominations or of no religious creed.
**

Also, lox, in order for this statement to be "more historically correct", you also have to exclude the racism attitudes and treatment that some Irish showed in the USA toward Black people in the 19th century during the Civil War and afterwards..

Here's the title of one book on the subject(which I haven't read):
Clear The Confederate Way! The Iris Irish In The Army Of Northern Virginiaby Kelly J. O'Grady

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Confederate-Irish-Northern-Virginia/dp/1882810422

(I don't know if that "Iris Irish") is a typo of the title or not,but that's how its found on that page).

Here's a review of that book which mentions titles of other books:

"The first book of its kind to examine the role of Irish Soldiers in the Army of Northern Virginia

Introduction by prominent Confederate historian Robert K. Krick
Includes rare and unpublished photos of Irish participants

Clear the Confederate Way! is the story of the Southern Irish who fought under Robert E. Lee. While most readers know about the Federal Irish Brigade, few appreciate the extent of the Irish contribution to the Southern war effort. More than a battle narrative, this ground-breaking book is a comprehensive exploration of the substantial Irish contribution to the Southern cause in battle, in Southern society, and in Confederate political circles. This well-written and exhaustively researched study. It is sure to interest both Civil War enthusiasts and many of todays forty million Irish Americans, especially at a time when public fascination with Irish culture and history grips the nation.

Kelly J. OGrady is a graduate of the College of William and Mary and a National Park Service historian at the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park. Also see Irish Rebels, Confederate Tigers (1882810163) and My Life in the Irish Brigade (1882810074). "

-snip-

And, yes, I know that all USA Confederate soldiers and supporters of the USA Confederacy weren't racist-and that some USA Union soldiers and USA Union supporters were racist.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:39 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:21 AM

There was an item on the news this morning about racism in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM

Ard Mhacha,

I hadn't wanted to jump to conclusions but I did suspect that BNP-UDA sympathies might have had a hand in it somewhere.


Having said that though, lets not get complacent about us Micks either.

Before Europe etc in the nineties, I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish was that we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog.

How could we be racist with that kind of CV?

Well ... looks like money corrupts ...

Once the republic signed up to the EU and the money started rolling in, so the doors had to open to allow refugees and asylum seekers in, not to mention foreign labour who were attracted by the growing job market.


Well, suddenly I started hearing aunties and uncles, who had all been on "our" side, going on about "them" bringing "their crime" and taking "our jobs" etc ...

.... it was like watching a seventies British sitcom dubbed with Irish accents.


Anyway, one of the subtler points in my above post is to remind people that FAF doesn't have to be a solely British enterprise and could just as easily benefit from growing simultaneously in Ireland, the USA etc.

In which case the discussion about English folk might begin to seem less important.

Though I do understand and acknowledge the point that in the UK there is a specific campaign by the BNP to target English folk so the context is slightly different.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:04 AM

"What I don't want to see is a return to the 'policy clubs' that restricted the type of folk music they were prepared to accept"
I don't think they'll ever be quite like that again.
Of course every club has a policy, whether written or not. But I know what you mean...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:48 AM

Lox, This has been going on from the first eastern Europeans arrived in Belfast.
Emigrants living in Loyalist enclaves of all large towns in the North have been the victims of UDA inspired youths, ChInese, Filipinos, Africans and some Irish Catholic residents have come under attack from these thugs.
As reported in a local Sunday paper the BNP have long been associated with Loyalist gangs, neo-nazi groups were responsible for the outrage against the Romanian families in the latest Belfast episode.

It is well know that Protestant areas will not accept anyone other than their co-religionists in their areas.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:46 AM

"MacColl was dealing a similar and quite specific problem in his time. ... MacColl was just reminding them that we did have some indigenous music of our own and why shouldn't we include at least some of that in our repertoire?"


I'd have to disagree with you there, Anahata, but I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the methods or motivations of MacColl (which has been discussed and written about ad infinitum). The point I'm making is that once you start appropriating the folk genre and imposing narrow and personal boundaries on it - especially for political reasons, you create a double-edged sword that you then put into the hands of people who may hold a totally opposite view to yours. What I don't want to see is a return to the 'policy clubs' that restricted the type of folk music they were prepared to accept.

"FaFFing horse definitioners AGAIN."

Richard, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:16 AM

By the way, Is there a Belfast wing of FAF?

... presumably doing Irish folk ...

But maybe they'd like to invite some romanians along to do their thing too ...


Here's why ...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM

The point is this.

If you do have other folk cultures on the bill it doesn't harm english folk in any way.

It's just an option that you are free to choose or not depending on what you fancy.

Likewise, if you don't have other folk cultures on the bill it doesn't follow that you have created perfect petri dish style condiitions for the BNP to infect and consume the event.

The point is, people being free to put on whatever night they want and keeping the BNP out.

In both cases a simple anti nazi point is easily made by denying ownership to them and keeping a lid firmly on their politics.

Any FAF night is already making a political statement by simply occurring in the first place.

The banner advertizes a celebration of music at which Nazi ideology is not welcome.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM

What are people disagreeing about? Most of the posts on the thread have been suggesting that there is nothing at all wrong with celebrating, performing or listening to English folk music or any other folk music. The point is that it is not to the exclusion or detriment of anything; and other music should not be to the detriment of trad. English. Whether the two are mixed at one venue, one night, across seperate events or completely integrated is irrelevent. Facism is about forcing other people to share your views. Folk against Facism should be showing that we can do what we want. By staging trad. English events, 'foreign' events and mixed ones we can show that the restrictive views of the BNP are not welcome. Is everyone was agreed on that?

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:08 AM

"The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person"
I agree with most of that post. However I am also a "English Music" enthusiast and perpetrator of one of those "anything but Irish" sessions and I think I should explain why. It's true that you can't pin down the origins of some tunes or songs to one country or another, but there are recognisable current repertoires and styles of playing that are typically English, Irish, Scottish and even more regional than that. And there's also a balance or perception to be restored: many English people outside the folk scene don't think there is such a thing as English music at all. They hear a tune played on a fiddle or a penny whistle in a pub and assume it's Irish. I've had several conversations about that with onlookers at pub music sessions. Why do they attach a national label to it at all, and why not just call it folk or traditional music (like they would in Scotland)? The reason is because the whole concept is so unfamiliar that it's assumed to be foreign, and because Irish (or "Celtic" or Scottish) music has been better marketed)

MacColl was dealing a similar and quite specific problem in his time. When I was a clueless kid I thought folk music was an American invention. UK folk singers were singing American songs (and in a fake American accent) and MacColl was just reminding them that we did have some indigenous music of our own and why shouldn't we include at least some of that in our repertoire?

(English music has had some media recognition in the last 10 years, so I suppose I can be a bit more relaxed about things now. It's still what I enjoy playing and researching)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 03:40 AM

I am sorry, but that is too much. FaFFing horse definitioners AGAIN.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 03:28 AM

"The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person."

Precisely. What I find worrying is that the BNP seem to be adopting a similar spurious, straight-jacketed and self-serving approach to folk music to that which Ewan MacColl invented to support a diametrically-opposed political perspective. Phrases like, "we should be pursuing some kind of national identity" and, "If we subject ourselves consciously or unconsciously to too much cultural acculturation, as the anthropologists call it, we'll finish with no folk culture at all. We'll finish with a kind of cosmopolitan, half-baked music, which doesn't satisfy the emotion of anybody." would be equally at home in a BNP manifesto as from MacColl. This sort of approach to folk music never has been and never will be acceptable to those of us who take a broader view of the genre, and it just comes back to bite us all on the arse.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 PM

i don't think anyone was saying we should back down or have to justify why we do what we do.

i think the idea was if we wanted to broaden our horizons how could we do it.. i think anyway.

there is nothing wrong with how things are and i don't want it to change becuase we are scared of how it COULD be seen. if that was the case for everything, we wouldn't post here at all. the NOBLE BNP will not change my lifestyle in any way shape or form, except if they somehow make petrol even more expensive.

i agree that i have felt the need to justify some of my remarks but that was so others who are only just reading this know where i am coming from,it suprised me that i felt the need, okay maybe i was having a paraniod moment, think of it in terms of when someone falls over and you laugh, but then feel abit guilty.

i'm okay now just had a bit of a rant head on me.

take care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM

Y'ain't alone, Snail. Not at all.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM

"We can do what we bloody well like, and part of what FAF is there for, I hope, is to allow us to celebrate British folk music without being labelled racist by association.

Anahata"

BRAVO!

Do NOT ever back away from those racist bastards. I just finished reading--for time number 15 (or something like that)--Leon Uris' "QB VII". Scary how the 'good' Dr Kelno thought so much like the BNP.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:00 PM

Oh thank you, thank you, Anahata. I was beginning to feel I was alone.

The BNP are trying to appropriate British music. Don't let them.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM

Well done Greg Stephens. The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person. This 'fact a fiction' was exposed over 400 years ago. Despite some peoples' attempts to exclude 'irish ' music ( but include Breton and Eastern European)in their 'English Music' sessions, hundreds of traditional tunes appear in the repertoires of players and singers from many communities, having been largely spread by travelling people. Of course, having found a foothold in a local community the song/tune would have taken on the characteristics of the local players, and probably a localised title ( Rakes of Mallow/Rigs of Marlow) but to suggest , e.g Smash the Windows/Roaring Jelly, or Garryowen/Walk of the Twopenny Postaman, or Lass o'Dallogill as EITHER 'Realy' English or Irish is ignorant beyond comprehension. To do so you would have to set the clock at a certain date, like Sharp and co often did, blissfully unaware of tradition and evolution.
The same can be said of the collectors who recorded 'traditional'musicians and attempted to ditinguish, in their repertoire, those tunes/songs which were traditional, and those that had come from 'sources' ( music hall, radio , sheet music etc).Jeez, they all started somewhere, some thought that if they knew WHEN and WHERE, the tune originated it wasn't traditional. sometimes called anon. Well, it is theoretically possible to discover the first edition of every song, does this mean that none of them are traditional?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM

we don't have to mix and match the musical styles but if somewhere wanted to that would be cool by me, i think the best way of doing that would be to alternate on the same night so you wouldn't get just one sort of listeners turning up.

howevr that is entirely up to the club/festival organiser.i agree that the best way to fight the BNP would be to change NOTHING.i think we have a good mixture of people and most of them are reasonable and approachable(?) so why change something that works well?


jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM

Rifleman: "It can also feature a solely english lineup"
talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP

Of course if a concert was organised by FAF or specifically to promote its aims, it would make far more sense and reinforce the anti-raccism message for it to have an international content.

But if we all have to have mixed British and other music every time we have a folk club or concert for fear of being viewed as aligned with the BNP, the BNP have won that round. We can do what we bloody well like, and part of what FAF is there for, I hope, is to allow us to celebrate British folk music without being labelled racist by association.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:57 PM

Go to

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/invite/notinmyname

and sign the petition

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:26 PM

why don't we alternate the acts at folk clubs? seems like a simple idea to me. does anyone know if foreign acts get more funding i would love to know.

RIFLEMAN, when do we get the link for your youtube clips? i have absolutely no idea what i would be looking for otherwise.

i have run out of steam now so will come back tommorrow.
have a great day/ night all

take care
jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:03 PM

[Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM

All very noble, I'm sure.

"It can also feature a solely english lineup"

talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP, some people just ask for trouble.]
Rifleman,Really,I would say the opposite.I reckon you play into the hands of the BNP,by abandoning English Traditional music,and letting them take it over.
Rifleman,how you doing with your Carter family repertoire?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

So, what does the BNP think about sea shanties?(Or what do the people think about them who just "prefer indigenous English music"?)
England's most sucessful musical export? Or universally loved black folksongs? Or maybe just a fabulous mongrel mix of both?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM

All very noble, I'm sure.

"It can also feature a solely english lineup"

talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP, some people just ask for trouble.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM

FAF can be an organization that exists to reclaim English folk from the BNP.

And when it organizes a FAF night, it can feature English folk acts, but also include non English folk styles on the lineup.

This welcomes 'other' styles to be involved in the English folk scene and to discover it for themselves, and it allows English folkies to witness other forms of folk too that might make the noght more interesting.

It can also feature a solely english lineup.

None of the above are incompatible.

As long as the banner is held high and the message resonates - oh ... and the night is fun and the music is entertaining ... - then get busy doing it how you wanna do it.

I will be on the look out for FAF nights and i will be recommending that promoters I know go out of their way to organize such nights.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM

Of course, Silas is entitled to his opinion, as I am entitled to my experience. On the occasions when I have been to folk clubs and pub sessions with my Zimbabwean friends who are singers, as far as I have observed people are very happy if the visitors sing a Zimbabwean folksong. Lovers of English traditional song have not walked out, neither have the Zimbabweans walked out when someone sang "Pleasant and Delightful". No compulsion, no fighting,no unpleasantness. The vast majority of people on the folk scene actually like this sort of thing, I am delighted to say. Though clearly not everybody, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:09 PM

"Silas ,please, explain why it is nuts,Enlighten us with your erudite Etymology."

"Well, its bleedin' obvious really!"

Silas, to most people it is obvious, but to the few you have to explain things verryyyyy slowly and very carefully, using LOTS of pictures.