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Folk Against Fascism

brezhnev 16 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM
Scotsman Over The Border 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 09 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 12:50 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 09 - 12:09 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM
Folkiedave 16 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM
SPB-Cooperator 16 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM
jeddy 16 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM
IanC 16 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 10:50 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM
jeddy 16 Jun 09 - 10:44 AM
Fred McCormick 16 Jun 09 - 10:26 AM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 09:46 AM
Andy Jackson 16 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 08:48 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM
Lox 16 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM
Vic Smith 16 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 04:24 AM
SPB-Cooperator 15 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Trev 15 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM
Andrew Wigglesworth 15 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM
Fred McCormick 15 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Andrew Wigglesworth 15 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM
Stringsinger 15 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 15 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: brezhnev
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

anyone got any suggestions for appropriate songs to sing at an FAF gig/rally?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I don't think you can enforce integration, you can make it easier, but I'm not sure a booking policy at folk clubs is the way to go about it. BTW, if anyone can tell me what the "English government" mentioned earlier is, I'd be grateful.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I would too.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:35 PM

Why on earth do you think that people will go to both sessions?


I would! Does that make me nuts as well? What about festivals? Seen the line up just announced for the Dent festival? Been to Fylde in tha last few years. Acts from all over the world and hundreds of people enjoying them all. Are they all bonkers?

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM

Well, its bleedin' obvious really. If people want to go and see a trad english act, they will, if they want to see an authentic Asian folk act they will. You don't need to have a club put one act on one week and another act on the next week, cos guess whaty will happen? The people who like Trad english will go to the trad english session and the folk that like Asian stuff will go to the Asian session. Why on earth do you think that people will go to both sessions?

Jeeze, its hard enough to get trad club members to go to Watersons concerts AND Kate Rusby sessions, they have very strong preferences.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:50 PM

Silas ,please, explain why it is nuts,Enlighten us with your erudite Etymology.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM

"to learn few circus skills when we are asking for taxpayers money:-)"

Hoop jumping has become a speciality fgor me..not that I do it while performing....wait though, now that might be a good.....nah.. *LOL*


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:09 PM

Two of the downsides to public funding are, all the hoops you have to jump through AND all the bloody paperwork....

I know exactly what you mean but the alternative is to give monety away to whoever asks first and/or loudest! I think we can afford a to learn few circus skills when we are asking for taxpayers money:-)

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM

Two of the downsides to public funding are, all the hoops you have to jump through AND all the bloody paperwork....


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM

Another bit of light relief.

I am quite proud of how Sheffield United were at the forefront of the camapign to Kick Racism out of Football, partly because of Arthur Wharton who is regarded as the first ever black professional player and he spent some of his career with the Blades.

Anyway the "black bastard" cry came up from behind us at a game and a number of us shouted "It's the colour of the shirt" at the offender.

Sheepishly he admitted he was referring to the referee!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Just a bit of light relief from the heavier side of the thread. My mate Dave and I went to a multi-cultural event in Salford a couple of years back. It was at Peel Park for those that know it - for those that do not it is a nice venue but also houses an art gallery and museum to give you an idea of the general 'feel'. It was very pleasent but, to be honest, quite dull. We all sat and sipped a glass of Chardonay while watching showcased acts from recent immigrant communities. We politely clapped and when it finished we wended our way over to the Crescent public house. Which is where the real integration started:-)

After a few pints of very fine assorted real ales we were amidst the most amazing music session I had ever come across. It was definitely not just the beer either. We had a Bosnian guitarist, a Polish accordian player, a fiddler from somewhere I could not pronounce, a couple of Somali percusionists, an opera singer from Russia and beyond that it all gets a little vague. Living proof, if anyone needs it, that music is the true international language. I am preety sure there were no facists around:-)

On the subject of funding for ethnic minority (do we still use that term?) performers. Why not indeed? If it helps us break those barriers and repels the invasion of the B(NP)ody snatchers then I am all for it. I am as sure as I can be that it will not be to the detriment of more traditional clubs. In fact, I am convinced that a few clubs showcasing other talents will be a good gateway for immigrants, recent and otherwise, to discover English folk as well as the other way round!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

I had come across common ballad themes running across Europe, for example a Czech ballad that follows the story of the Two Magicians.

I would like to research how much folksolg is Bohemian in origin, and how much crossover their has been through Roma communities bu tthat I think should be another thread.

The term pure and unadulterated is totally meaningless in respect of folksong as the 'folk process' is a process of adulteration as songs migrate from community to community, and at the point of collection we don't know how much adulteration has already taken place.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM

as crow sister says the BNP believe that english folk is exactly that, " pure and unadulterated".. the very idea!!! yes alot of our music comes from english writers and singers but people are influenced in many ways throught international media. they might write them as set in england but the idea may have come from anywhere. do they not think that anywhere else may have had factories, woods river banks, mills? who knows where these stories started off before being sung instead.

take care all #jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

Azizi: on a technical point, your query about British usage of the word Asian. It is confusing, as people here use the word in two incompatible ways. (1) People from the continent of Asia(or with that racial/cultural backlground).
(2) People fron the Indian sub-continent (or with that racial/cultural background).


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

Well Captain, I still can't see why or how this would work, or even if I would want it to.

With all due respect, i think the idea is nuts. There must be much better ways of spending tax payers money than this.

No, bugger the respect, the idea is barking mad.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

Azizi
Does "Asian" used here mean the same thing as it does in the USA-people who are of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or other ancestries from that geographical area of the world?

Basically, yes ... though in Britain most of the people called "asian" will have originated from the Indian subcontinent as that's where most of our ties historically are.

:-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

OK Bryan, sorry for becoming mildly intemperate - I find myself often frustrated with the arguments that I see on Mudcat - and feel that *here* is at least ONE place where folk enthusiasts could give that extra leeway to each other in support of a collectively endorsed cause.

So just to clarify: "The music the BNP are targeting, is what we would collectively generally recognise (though the specific criteria which determine what 'it' is, might be debatable - THAT is a side issue) to be "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles.""

Of course no-one describes their musical taste by 'what it's not' (ie in this instance 'non immigrant folk music) And yet THAT is the specific reason it's been targeted by the BNP. Because to a Nationalists eyes (even if they hate music), it is 'pure and unadultarated'. It is in the eyes of a right-wing Nationalist, not valuable for what it IS as such, so much as for what it can be defined as NOT being.

So, I mean that the threat is being very specifically directed AT traditional *indigenous* (thus by default white) music of Britain and England in particular, in contradistinction to 'British' folk musics belonging to immigrant cultures.

Simply because it is what it is, it becomes a possible 'banner' for those who would wave it to promote ends which could damage it badly by association.

Anyway, I'm sure we are all on the same side here. So I'm going to do my best to avoid tangling with contentious issues on this thread in future myself! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM

as matter of fact,I am in favour of encouraging all traditional contemporary folk music as well as English.
As the BNP hostilty seems primarily to be anti muslim,it would seem a good place to start,in an attempt to break down barriers,and build friendship.
yes, I know some Asian people are not muslim,but there has to be a starting point.
50 /50 booking policy,50 per cent english , 50 per cent muslim choice,if two parties are to integrate,it has to be[IMO] a two way equal process,so if a club books a guest artist,40 weeks of the year,20 English performers 20 asian performers.
However there is no reason,why a promoter should not apply,for grants and book Chinese and English performers,on a fifty/FIFTY per cent ratio.THE WHOLE OBJECT OF THE EXERCISE BEING EXPOSING TWO MUSIC CULTURES TO ONE ANOTHER.
I am not against money being given to clubs that book purely English traditional music,or purely Chinese traditional music.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM

"publicly supported" meaning "receiving government funding".

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that while I support the mission of the FaF, (being an American) I should stay out of this discussion mostly because there's too much about the cultures that I don't know and understand. I'm just speaking for me and not anyone else who is not from the UK.

Because of that conclusion, from now on I'll be lurking and not posting to this thread.

Best wishes,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM

I meant to say that besides what the percentages would be, I'm not sure that I would be supportive of the idea that folk clubs receive any grants to integrate their performance bookings unless those folk clubs are publicly supported and not private organizations.

But, again, I say this knowing next to nothing about English folk clubs so maybe I shouldn't have posted anything about this line of the discussion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:50 AM

Crow Sister

With respect Snail, your posts on this thread are becoming increasingly unconstructive IMO.

Then, perhaps, I am not expressing myself very clearly. I am in (almost) complete agreement with your second and third paragraphs. The "almost" comes from the quote "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles.". Nobody stands up in a folk club and says "This is from the singing of Walter Pardon. It is specifically not immigrant folk music."

Folknacious's attitude strikes me as dangerously wrong headed. You say "That is why we must be careful about the language we use. Folknacious says that it's all but impossible to get it right without running close to the BNP manifesto. Which essentially means "Don't do it." The BNP will have no such inhibitions so, if we follow that policy, they will be the only ones singing British songs and playing British tunes. (Well, English anyway. I don't thing the Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish or Manx will give up their music so easily.)

The only reason I quoted it again was because Vic seemed to be taking up the same idea. (It might help you to know that Vic and I have known each other for going on for forty years. He's not someone I'm going to snipe at.) As for me not being constructive, apart from Folknacious's spectacular progress from "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music" to ,"close to the BNP manifesto", nobody has come up with any examples of dodgy language or offered examples of how to do it properly.

The solution I have offered is that as many people as possible who are demonstrably not racists and fascists should sing, play, dance, listen to and watch the music. Nobody has responded to that.

If you have anything constructive to offer, I'll be glad to listen.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM

If I were from the UK, I don't know that I would be in agreement regarding a proposal that the English government provide grants to folk clubs that have a booking policy of "50 per cent english traditional,and 50 percent traditional/contemporary asian music. Once you start doing percentages, then "folk" (meaning "people") will start arguing about how the percentages were figured out-for instance, instead of 50/50 what if some people argue for 70/30 or 60/40? What would the percentages be based on?

And, for the sake of helping me (and maybe others)correctly understand this line of the discussion, what is meant by the term "Asian" in the context of that suggestion?

Does "Asian" used here mean the same thing as it does in the USA-people who are of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or other ancestries from that geographical area of the world? Or does "Asian" in that comment mean the same thing as "BME"-a term which means Black, Minority Ethnic (which I just learned from this thread or another recent Mudcat thread)?

I hasten to say that the meaning of the term does not matter to me in the context of the suggestion which I can't support since I don't live in England/Great Britain/the United Kingdom. But I'm just wanting to make sure that I'm correctly interpreting what that referent means.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:44 AM

well i go away for one day and i have to spend an hour just catching up!!!

FRED, you ideas are scary but if the BNP get their way i don't think it would take thm long to get like that.

as for 50/50 grants, i have heard somewhere that U.K festivals get more funding if they book foriegn artists or groups(not foreign in a bad way) i can't beleive i just had to quantify the word foreign.

i think the only way to stop them infiltrating folk clubs and culture is to keep a freindly eye on strangers,especially if they happen to be recording the performance..it's a sad world when we have to be suspious of a new face.

GREG, your' idea of making colours and text easier is welcomed, i have had it explained to me but still can't figure it out,even when i write it in differnet colours in a new page it won't transfer. you are not alone!!!!

so how else do we fight without becoming preachy? i have no idea, but to know that there are so many people out there that feel the same as i do, makes me feel that now anything is possible.
i haven't been on the FaF yet, does anyone know how the merch situation is going? i can't wait to get to do something possative instead of bitching about this problem.

take care all

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:26 AM

Andrew Wigglesworth. "Fred, are you disagreeing with me?"

No. I'm just trying to explain that their present inactivity in folk music, and in other areas, probably stems from a lack of willing participants. Present BNP membership stands at around 13,000, of which only 250 are listed as activists, and they are the ones who are supposed to be litter picking, decorating old peoples houses etc., as well as running local branches.

If, God forbid, the BNP ever becomes a mass party, that is when they'll start organising corporate activities along the lines promoted in the Acitists Handbook. Can't you just envisage it? BNP Youth camps, with healthy Aryan members sitting around camp fires, singing suitably doctored Aryan folk songs. BNP decoration teams. 'You can have your house painted any colour you want as long as it's white.' BNP litter picks. A couple of dozen blue eyed blonde haired Aryans with bin bags and mechanical grabbers singing the John Tyndall song and chanting Heil Griffin as they go.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM

It would make Mudcat vastly easier to read, and make arguments less likely to go in the wrong direction, if it was easier to change bits of text into different colours, or bold or italic. Then it wouild clear when the Cap'n is quoting, and when he is writing as himself. Writing an email, you can change it instantly as you wish. Writing on Mudcat, you have to understand some weird computer stuff first,which many of us find difficult to master.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:10 AM

Oops, now I'm somewhat misinterpreting things The Cap'n said! Eh oh!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM

Well, bonkers is as bonkers does.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:06 AM

Cross-cultural (especially youth) folk musical projects - especially in cities with high levels of immigrant cultures, is a perfectly sound and sensible idea IMO.
A space for kids to both learn about, exchange, and forge fusions of, their own different traditional musics.
Can't see any problem with the suggestion myself. And while we all debate this stuff, in the spirit of err 'positivity', I hardly see just calling an idea 'bonkers' very useful..


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM

Well captain, I'm not altogether certain that 'integration' is the right way to go. In fact, I think it is the wrong way to go.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM

greg ,
cant you read,there are three posts,the first is yours the second mine and the third, guest silas,all clearly headed.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM

YES,
I am serious,and I think the government has a responsibilty,to help integration,and furthermore the English government,and also local arts councils have a responsibilty to have an international outlook.
In my opinion, They should encourage folk promoters,with subsidies/grants,to encourage a booking policy of 50 per cent english traditional,and 50 percent traditional/contemporary asian music.that doesnot mean that I am against folkclubs who wish to have a different booking policy,
the two should be able to coexist together.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM

Which bits are you quoting? Which bits are your own? Which bits are bonkers? It is rather difficult to tell.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:46 AM

From: greg stephens - PM
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures? I have spent various chunks of my life recording the music of various immigrant/refugee/asylum seeker people in this country, because I love folk music basically. To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. The politics is the personal.
Subject: RE: Boring Folk Day
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:25 AM

here is one suggestion that I think would use music in a progressive way.
the English government should subsidise English /Asian music clubs, which have a booking policy of equally shared TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY music,from English and Asian backgrounds.
music can be a great way of breaking down barriers.

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Subject: RE: Boring Folk Day
From: GUEST,Silas - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:30 AM

"here is one suggestion that I think would use music in a progressive way.
the English government should subsidise English /Asian music clubs, which have a booking policy of equally shared TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY music,from English and Asian backgrounds.
music can be a great way of breaking down barriers. "

Completely bonkers. Are you being serious?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM

Please keep to the subject. I read this thread several times a day and it is suffering from the usual mud drift. Let's stop the bickering and point scoring, yes you are all very clever, but I suspect too much time on your ands.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM

With respect Snail, your posts on this thread are becoming increasingly unconstructive IMO. Perhaps those who enjoy indulging in the same old snippery, would consider taking it elsewhere? There are people on this thread who really are trying to be constructive. I for one am interested in hearing their contributions, rather than the usual petty bickering over who said what when and how.

The music the BNP are targeting, is what we would collectively generally recognise (though the specific criteria which determine what 'it' is, might be debatable - THAT is a side issue) to be "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles."

For the purposes of the awareness raising campaign, the music 'under threat' is the music that we need to be discussing stratagies of dissociating from right-wing propaganda. The difficulty is in extricating English music from the dangers of association to agendas promoted by rascist groups. That is why we must be careful about the language we use. Because poorly expressed wording can be misconstrued - including *willfully* so. As indeed we see all the time on Mudcat...

It is in that context, which I read Folknacious' quote.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM

For "Nrs" read "Mrs". Messed up my own joke. It's the way you tell 'um.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:48 AM

Vic Smith

make sure that its own house is in order.

All very well, Vic, but how do we decide what is acceptabe? According to Folknacious If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. which seems to imply that the very characteristics that define traditional music make it racist. OH MY GOD! Walter Pardon was WHITE! We mustn't sing his songs or they'll think we're BNP supporters!

How far do we go? Is this acceptable?

Bryan Creer (Colonel, Nrs, retired)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM

I just read the following blog comments about people of color reading historical novels and plays and feeling nostalgic about the past:

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/15/nostalgia-a-sport-for-the-privileged/#comments

"@Wendi: "being privileged during one time may consist of completely different things than it does now and from say X country's perspective."

Back in Mediterranean classical times, blond Germanic types were stereotyped as stupid, ferocious savages while dark-skinned "Ethiopians" were supposed to be clever, but overly civilized and effete. The idea was that the hotter your climate, the smarter you were, but the more cowardly. Hey, it makes about as much sense as most of our modern-day stereotypes."
-Posted by atlasien ; Jun 2009 at 4:17 pm ¶

**

..."Actually, it was BETTER to be black in England in the 17th Century than in the 18th or 19th. There are a number of accounts of African visitors to London who were important personages–diplomats, tradesmen, ambassadors–who were treated with a combination of exoticism and respect. The slave trade had not yet become as entrenched in the English economy as it would in later years. So the association of "black/African" with "inferior/slave" had not yet become an established way of thinking. Shakespeare's Othello offers a good "timestamp" of the moment; sure, some characters say racist and ugly things about him, but he has risen to a high position in the army, has the respect of the Senate, and Desdemona's love for him is unquestioned in the play.

Even 30-40 years later, a character like Othello would have been impossible for an English playwright to conceive."
-Posted by jp; 15 Jun 2009 at 5:56 pm ¶

-snip-

I know very little about the way Ethiopian people or Germanic people were portrayed in Mediterranean classical times. And I hadn't thought about Shakespeare and his characterization of a high ranking Black man with an interracial marriage. And I read Othello so long ago that I can't remember the "racist and ugly things[that people in that play said] about him". I'm wondering how the BNP deals with this play. But they probably ignore anything that they can't use to their advantage.

Is there some way that this information-particularly the part about Othello could be mentioned to the advantage of the goals of Folk Against Fascism or the (broader?) goals of whoever/whatever organizations are interested in fostering a society that is much less racist than England was in the 18th century, 19th century, 20th century, and than England is now in the 21st century? For starters I'm thinking about how discussions could held to consider how Black people and other People of Color (including people from India) have been considered and depicted in English historical documents, literature, and music and why we (People of Color) have been/are portrayed that way and then and now.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM

On the subject of Mozart etc ...

The european musical tradition has focussed more on harmony . The African musical tradition focussed more on rhythm.

There has never been anything in Europe to rival the complex syncopation and polyrhythms of Africa.

I would love to take any BNP mozart fan to the Gambia and watch them try to conceptualize and learn the complexity of their music.

Then we would travel down the west coast of Africa through Ghana and Nigeria on our way to South Africa to discover that the depth and variety of subsaharan african music is endless - and not something that Mozart ever conceived of.

But being ignorant, "the doc" wouldn't have a clue about that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM

Yes, please do follow Dick's link to that video.....

One of the things that supporters of the British folk scene will have to do to make the entirely laudable Folk Against Fascism movement entirely credible is to make sure that its own house is in order. If you follow the subject of the discussion that Dick Miles and I have been having over on another Mudcat thread - Boring Folk Day - you will find that I think that we have some way to go in this.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:24 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnpJU31HM0&feature=related.
please watch this video and rate it 5 stars,it is a response to muslim demographics.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM

Trev, Don't put ideas into thier heads. it is bad enough that they have elected councillors and euro MPs


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Trev
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM

Many dont object to the BNP because of its litterpicking activities; they are reviled because of their disgusting racism ,fascism and general thuggishness.
They can try to window dress their policies all they like but they are still the same old nazi thugs,bigots and racists.
If they had their way they would attempt to deport the non white population of this country and would plunge this country into a race war or apartheid style regime.
Can you imagine BNP representatives as school governors or as NHS board members?It doesn't bear thinking about.
The ones I bumped into recently were a disgraceful bunch.One wore his Enoch Powell Tshirt with pride beneath his jacket,another was filming anti fascists for the Redwatch site and a third had his bald head covered in swastika tattoos. What an awful shower!
trev


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

And wasn't Beethoven black?

He probably is now.

I'll get my coat on the way out...

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM

Fred, are you disagreeing with me?

No, that's not meant to be an "point scoring" comment since I think that you're expanding upon the point that I was making... but leaving off the "so far" from your quote of my comment completely changes it's context.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM

Andrew Wigglesworth. "I've been concerned about the BNP's wish to encroach on what they call "indigenous British music" for some while. They don't seem to have put much serious work into it......."

BNP MEPs have already pledged 10% of their annual salaries to the English Fair fund, which is something they've set up to help "local communities" celebrate St. Georges Day.

If you look at their Activists Handbook (downloadable from the BNP website) it lists all kinds of activities which activists are supposed to engage in. They include instigating/helping with calendar customs, joining residents associations, starting community patrols, litter picks, and providing help for old people.

They regard all these activities as "image building". I'd regard it as window dressing. In practice, though, the BNP don't seem to engage in any of these things and it's likely there aren't enough party activists at the moment to do anything but fulminate against Muslims. It's possible therefore, that if their membership starts to grow significantly, and once they've got their hands on this EU cash, they'll start to take on some of these other activities. That, I think is when they'll try and muscle in on the folk revival.

If they do, send the bastards away with a collective flea in their ears.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM

theleveller

"Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association. "

LOL! How did you come to dream up that little gem? Support for UAF comes from a wide range of unions such as the NUT, NASWT, UNITE, The University and College Union, and other respected organisations. (Hey, it's those schoolteachers you have to watch out for - they can be a pretty violent lot!!!)

Right wing apologists like you who try to discredit anti-fascist organisations are exactly why I joined Folk Against Fascism.

--------------

"Fairplay" didn't dream up of that by him or herself, it is the routine propaganda line by the BNP. As such, "Fairplay" is playing the role of a fascist apologist.

I've been concerned about the BNP's wish to encroach on what they call "indigenous British music" for some while. They don't seem to have put much serious work into it so far, but with the funds that will be flowing into their coffers from the European Parliamentary game we have to assume that all areas of their activity and propaganda will be increased.

Any more news on a Folk Against Fascism website? I personally don't do Facebook or Myspace (even if Myspace have resolutely refused to delete an old profile).


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM

One of my heroes is Louis Armstrong who changed the face of popular music in America,
something Mozart could not have done.

A case can be said that White People have been responsible for brutality and mass murder if you wanted to generalize as the BNP seems to do. Hitler and Stalin were both white.

We can dismiss the arguments of the BNP easily and their trumped-up views of "sociobiology" which are grossly distorted. They don't understand that racial classifications are not given important emphasis by social biologists and that they are arbitrary.

In fact, many anthropologists believe that "heterosis", the mixing of races produce a more resilient and healthy offspring than between two of the same race which might be closer to the degeneration found when close cousins marry.

The important thing to remember here is that there are all kinds of misconceptions about race and its relationship to culture which entail different value systems. The idea that a Darwinian concept of "natural selection" in race-based cultures is scientifically specious.
Darwin never implied anything of the kind. Even "survival of the fittest" is not a quote from Darwin but from Herbert Spencer, an English philosopher. The BNP seem to embrace Lamark in a view that cultural traits are inherited genetically and this has been disprovable by Mendel and other scientific discoveries.

In short, BNP is full of crap.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM

"Ruth

Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm glad you've disassociated yourself from the paramilitary politics of UAF. Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association"

DMR, your anti socialist slip is showing sunshine. Anyone who disagrees with your VERY questionable position is considered too radical etc, etc...blah blah blah!, which is laughable when you consider some of the tactics of the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

Not sure, but this chap was.


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