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Folk Against Fascism

Fred McCormick 17 Jul 09 - 11:25 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM
Joe Offer 17 Jul 09 - 02:00 PM
jeddy 17 Jul 09 - 03:43 PM
Fred McCormick 18 Jul 09 - 05:49 AM
Penny S. 18 Jul 09 - 06:09 AM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Jul 09 - 11:26 AM
Fred McCormick 18 Jul 09 - 11:54 AM
Stringsinger 18 Jul 09 - 12:34 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Jul 09 - 09:23 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Jul 09 - 09:29 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Jul 09 - 12:56 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Jul 09 - 01:17 PM
Royston 20 Jul 09 - 04:47 AM
Royston 20 Jul 09 - 04:49 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Jul 09 - 05:49 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Jul 09 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Georgina Boyes 20 Jul 09 - 06:38 AM
Fred McCormick 20 Jul 09 - 07:18 AM
Peace 20 Jul 09 - 11:23 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:37 AM
Richard Bridge 21 Jul 09 - 09:34 AM
Royston 21 Jul 09 - 10:35 AM
Royston 21 Jul 09 - 10:40 AM
jeddy 21 Jul 09 - 10:41 AM
jeddy 21 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM
Peace 21 Jul 09 - 11:32 AM
jeddy 21 Jul 09 - 12:00 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM
jeddy 21 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM
Richard Bridge 21 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 05:23 PM
Emma B 21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM
Royston 21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 09 - 05:48 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 09 - 05:58 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:14 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:20 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 09 - 06:28 PM
Emma B 21 Jul 09 - 06:34 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM
Royston 21 Jul 09 - 07:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 11:25 AM

Richard Bridge. "I am however more concerned that, while opposing them, we should not give them credence as a serious political party."

The BNP are not a serious political party. They never have been and they never will be. Unfortunately, their leadership has come to realise that they will get nowhere unless they at least try and look like one. What's worse, they've managed to fool quite a lot of people. That's why it's necessary to expose them and to counter their propaganda at every opportunity.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM

"my thinking is that if these morons are busy posting stupid messages on a pc then they are not out there throwing firebombs or beating up anyone. they are safely tucked up at home. i know which i would rather give them attention for.
the 'if you ignore them they will go away' philosophy is just wishful thinking, they will just go to more extremes to get the attention they desire."

The stuff we've been experiencing on Facebook is playground crap, to be frank. The person who has been winding you up is not a firebomber, he is a sad little no-mark who is getting his jollies because you respond to him.

As I say, posting the stuff here and making it into a big deal really does pull focus away from the real issues and trivialises the discussion. Which exactly what he wants.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:00 PM

Well, if the BNP can get votes, they're a "serious political party." No, you won't be able to reason with the "party faithful," and I don't suggest that you even try - but most of the people who vote BNP, are not part of the party organization. For the most part, they vote because they have been hoodwinked. I wouldn't ask people to reason with the BNP - that's impossible. I ask that you reason against the BNP and stop the stupid baboon shit.

These hoodwinked voters need information, so they can see that there are alternatives that will satisfy their needs and calm their fears. If all they hear is angry people shouting "fuck dis shit" in opposition to the BNP, they'll just cower in fear and hide in the welcoming arms of the smooth-talking, gentle-sounding BNP.

DO fight the BNP - but fight them with facts.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 03:43 PM

ruth i think we will have to agree to disagree on this.
, i highly respect what you are doing with FaF and i cannot wait to get my t shirt and stickers and support you in any way possible.

i am more concerned with the BNP getting any sort of control on a regional level than them getting into parliment. they are a joke but as long as they have followers then we must fight however we feel the need.
if we agree that most people who vote for them are being conned then that is where we must start.
i believe that by showing what they write and think alot of people will wonder just what they were thinking of.
most of the messages on any of the BNP websites are just as purile and stupid but it shows the mentality of those we are dealing with.

anyway take care

much respect to you all

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:49 AM

Joe. Over here we have something called the Monster Raving Loony Party. No-one would in a million years call them a serious political party. Yet they stand in elections and they get votes.

I argue that the BNP is not a serious political party because their entire stance is based on kneejerk reactions, rather than serious thought out policies. Here's just one example among many; up to about 1960, we had something called national service, where every male was conscripted into the armed forces for two years. You had similar in the USA, but I can't remember what they called it. It was eventually wound up because it had become redundant to the needs of modern warfare. Plus, it was an expensive drain on national resources.

Even so, a lot of people thought NS was a good idea. They claimed it built character, discipline and all that stuff. The fact that the country was crawling with teddy boys and knife fights might have suggested otherwise, but never mind.

The BNP plan to reintroduce NS. As far as I can see, they have given no consideration to the costing implications involved in employing millions of conscripts for two years, nor have they stopped to wonder just what these conscripts would do. Always assuming of course that the Afghanistan and Iraq wars are ancient history by then, and these jokers haven't started any new ones.

That's what I mean when I say the BNP is not a serious political party. They have no serious policies or systematic thought out strategies.

Equally, they are short on serious rhetoric. EG., the Daily Telegraph recently asked Nick Griffin what they would do with so called home grown aliens, whom they couldn't deport because they had no other country to go to. Griffin said "Oh, I don't know. Drop them out of a plane over Africa". Then there was his brilliant idea of sinking boatloads of illegal migrants and throwing them life rafts. Whether he would drop the rafts before or after they'd sunk the boats he didn't say. But that's not serious politics. It's the sort of uninformed barroom gossip you can hear in practically any pub in the land on a Saturday night.

For the matter of that, no serious party would consider harbouring the assemblage of thugs and skinheads which make up such a large proportion of the hard core of the membership of the BNP.

No, the BNP are a serious threat, not because they are a serious political party, but precisely because they are not a serious political party.

Beyond that, I agree totally with your estimation of the "f**k this shit brigade". I actually feel sorry for most of the people who vote BNP. They do so because the Labour Party is nowadays a crumbling effigy of its former self and because neither of the other two parties can offer them a reasonable alternative.

They do so because they see a world where their local industries have collapsed, and in many cases where their local communities have gone the same way. They do so because they can't get jobs and they can't get houses, and they see, or think they see, an avalanche of foreign workers taking their jobs and undercutting their wages. And they see a parliament stuffed with careerist politicians on the take.

Yes, we need serious arguments. We need to show people that migrant workers don't pose a menace to their own well being; that far right governments invariably end up repressing thir own people; and that however bad the present national and poltical malaise may be, voting BNP is like taking strychnine for a common cold. It doesn't solve anything and it will leave you in a far worse state than you were before.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 06:09 AM

Last night I realised that the problem is more complex than it may appear at first.

There are people out there who have peculiar beliefs which support their ability to be taken in by the BNP or other groups. This does not just apply to political groups. It can apply to any other sort of belief - in UFOs to be harmless, in some forms of religion.

I was listening to the radio, and someone spoke of a man aged 85 who responded to another's statement that putting the BNP into power was not what his grandfather fought for with the declaration that it was precisely what he had fought for. I very much doubt that that was what he thought at the time. (Assuming even that he supported Mosely? Went along with the upperclass Nazis?)

People pick up ideas from others they mix with, the things they read and make their own world view. All of us do it. Then we assume that that view is the norm. Football supporters say that an internbational match unites the nation. Broadcasters assume that their audience thinks morris is funny. Morris dancers assume that what they do is interesting to others. etc.

Most of us test what we believe against the real world and adjust as necessary. People who get drawn into odd little groups don't. They can believe that Earth was populated by strange beings called thetans. That god requires women to have their private parts removed. And so on. Where beliefs are supported by the group, it is going to be difficult to shift. Even people who aren't yet in the group, but merely sympathise with the publicly shown beliefs of the group, are going to feel challenged in a way that drives them further in if they are made to feel that they are somehow wrong in what they think. That the wrongness is part of themselves, instead of a superficial error which is not essential to their self image.

BNP supporters will say things like "I'm not educated, but ...*" as though education is a fault they do not share which has brainwashed the liberals who oppose them. This makes a defence against any attempt to inform them of reality.

*I think what followed the but was a claim that god** put the diferent races in different places where he intended them to stay. I don't know which god, or the source.

**I use lowercase for any deity I suspect of non-existence or veniality.

Quite ordinary and nice people will come out with very suspect opinions, and it can be very hard to find ways of suggesting alternatives without making them feel attacked. If they have decided at some point that that nice Mr Griffin may be able to present their views in important places, any exposure of the real nature of said person could be seen as such an attack - and Griffin has already been working on that line.

Not easy. even without the threats.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 11:26 AM

Fred,
Their policy to reintroduce national service makes perfect sense, especially if you read the second part that says that everyone completing National service must keep a firearm.

Imaging the skinhead louts and combat 18 thugs being issued with semi-automatic rifles.... what do you think they will want to do with them???


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 11:54 AM

SPB. I didn't say they haven't got an agenda, and part of that agenda undoubtedly includes an armed militia to round up and intern all the people they don't like.

But arming every thug in the land does not represent a set of viable properly thought out policies. In fact, they do not need a set of policies because they appeal to the kneejerkers and the pissed off, and the people who think the country is going to hell in a handcart, not to people who are liable to stop and think and question where this is going to take us.

Not that there's anything new in this of course. The nazis didn't get into power on the strength of an informative manifesto. They did it by a combination of thuggery and appeals to national identity, a demagogic mob orator, and a pack of lies about the Jews. When the chips are down, that is exactly what the BNP will do.

I think it was Trotsky who said anyone voting fascist is not making a conscious informed decision. They are doing the equivalent of jumping over a cliff with their hands over their eyes.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 12:34 PM

Nazisim came out of the ashes of economic deprivation in Germany in the 20's.
There is always a chance that a system of reaction will develop when times are hard.
People who are suffering want to blame someone so they form a political party.
Jews were scapegoats because it was convenient to do this.

The "man under the curtain" is corporate fascism which is slowly taking over certain
parts of the world. As long as corporate elites control the economies of the world,
they will bolster the rise of groups such as the BNP.

It's important to focus attention on the real culprits, the CEO's and the politicians who are greedy, the policies in governments which are controlled by the military industrial complex and the suppression of unions by ruthless business interests.


Here's where FAF should be concentrating their efforts.
Then maybe the KKK and the BNP will be seen for what they really are.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 09:23 AM

I agree totally with Bruce, FUCcK the BNP and all who sail in her.

I fully understand him wanting to say that over and over again, too, because hell, he's had his identity stolen, and these absolute b*stards are putting down terrible things, as if they were coming from Bruce himself, which they are NOT. They're also doing this to other people in here to.

What the f**k are Facebook playing at??????????

I've just written to Facebook, via kat's link above, thanks Kat...and have given them a link into this page. I've also told them that they will undoubtedly be having the biggest lawsuit ever dreamed of coming their way, unless they do something about these evil people, because in letting them carry on doing what they are doing on there, the owners of this site must surely be condoning it...and are therefore, in my eyes at least, as guilty as the scum who are doing this in the first place.

Richard, could you give us a Lawyer's view of it all, please. CAN Facebook be taken to court over allowing this?

It would be a good idea to have a separate thread perhaps, as a petition to send to Facebook, if Joe is OK with that, asking people to 'sign' it and put down their views on what they think of Facebook for allowing this to happen in the first place.

In the meantime, could I ask EVERYONE to write to Facebook via kat's link above...because it goes directly to them.

Again, FUlCK the BNP.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 09:29 AM

kat's link to the Facebook 'Help' page...

http://www.facebook.com/help/contact_generic.php

FACEBOOK CONTACT PAGE - Please CONTACT them!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM

Also, please put the Contact address on your Facebook page, together with a short explanation as to what is going on with the BNP and how Facebook is choosing to NOT ensure the safety of their members from having their identities stolen, then used on their site.

http://www.facebook.com/help/contact_generic.php

I'm sure they've made more than enough money from all their advertising to get the best lawyers on to this, and the best computer guys too, to work out some system that does not allow this to happen.

Someone send for Billy Bragg, immediately! Perhaps Billy could write a blog about this on his pages.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 12:56 PM

Goodness, that didn't take long then! :0) Seems I've upset 'Carrie Ann' on Facebook..Of course, I can't access Carrie's page at all. Shame, huh? I guess they didn't like the message on my page. Tough.



>>>"Well how are you keeping ? Please go and check this profile out
http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=lizzie+cornish&init=quick#/profile.php?id=100000075983192&ref=profile

It's a rough old tart who wears too much make up ( must need it) and seems to think cheap yellow bleeched hair is in !!

Also note the slack skin on the jaws. Some women just don't know when to give up !"

Talk soon, love as always

Carrie"<<<


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 01:17 PM

Sorry to keep coming in here, but this may be of use to some people:

Taken from here:Facebook Safety


"Facebook aspires to be an environment where people can interact safely with their friends and the people around them. We have implemented many safety and privacy controls on Facebook as part of our goal to enable people to share their information with only the people they want to see it. And we are constantly improving our systems for identifying and removing inappropriate content and people from the site..........


Despite Facebook's safety and privacy controls, Facebook cannot guarantee that its site is entirely free of illegal, offensive, pornographic or otherwise inappropriate material, or that its members will not encounter inappropriate or illegal conduct from other members. Consequently, you may encounter such content and conduct. You can help Facebook by notifying us of any nudity, pornography, harassment or unwelcome contact by clicking on the "Report" link located on pages throughout the site. Where confidential complaints are made through this site reporting tool, Facebook will do its best to remove the offending content or conduct and to warn or, as appropriate, to bar from the site those transmitting such content or engaging in such conduct within 24 hours of receiving your complaint.

Where complaints about nudity, pornography, harassment or unwelcome contact are made by independent email to abuse@facebook.com Facebook will acknowledge receipt of your complaint and begin addressing your complaint within 24 hours of receipt. Facebook will report back to you within 72 hours of receiving your email complaint to inform you of the steps Facebook has taken to address the complaint.

Click here to contact the Independent Safety and Security Examiner (ISSE) regarding Facebook's complaint handling procedures. Please note that if you have not previously made a complaint to Facebook you should not use this link. Facebook is solely responsible for complaint handling, and you should address all complaints or reports of abuse directly to Facebook using the procedures described on this page.

We need all users to report suspicious people and inappropriate content they encounter on Facebook. We strongly encourage users under the age of 18 to talk to their parents or a responsible adult immediately if someone online says or does something to make them feel uncomfortable or threatened in any way.

Remember that although using fake names is a violation of the Facebook Terms of Use, people are not always who they say they are. You should always be careful when sending friend requests to, or accepting friend requests from, people you do not know in the real world. It is also always risky to meet anyone in person whom you don't know through real world friends.

Always follow these important safety tips when using Facebook:..."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:47 AM

Very well done, Lizzie.

As some of us have been explaining patiently for weeks, the BNP Facebook troll is clearly also a Midcat reader.

The troll's reward for its efforts is seeing people get wound up here.

You've just given it a good week or so's onanistic reward with your rants.

I've been on the frontline of anti-fascism for nearly twenty years and if you lot are going to get this unsettled by a bit of name tom-foolery on bookface then you either need to get over you


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:49 AM

Hit submit by accident


...Then you either need to get over yourselves and concentrate on what's important about this anti-fascist effort, or just put down your FaF stickers and go back to what you were doing before.

But stop wasting your effort and time by feeding the troll by bringing this diversion to this forum.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 05:49 AM

Thank you, Einstein, but I had worked out they watch Mudcat all the time. Doh!

I put those details on because they're yet more ways to complain directly to Facebook. Myspace had a problem years back with people taking over identities, it was happening all the time. messages being sent out in their name etc...That happens very rarely these days, very rarely, so, if Myspace can sort it out, so can Facebook. It seems they're not that bothered though. They damn well should be.

Sorry, I disagree with you entirely on this one, because the more people who know, and the more who complain, then the greater the pressure on Facebook to do something about it.

And as for the insults he/she threw at me, which I posted above, heck...it coosts me a small fortune to look this cheap! LOL


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 05:52 AM

Actually, the details Lizzie posts above about Facebook (alleged) policy and the associated contact details are useful.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 06:38 AM

There are reports in the papers today that the two BNP MEPs intend to use some of their allowances to fund a "Community Chest" which will give grants to support St George's Day activities in the North East and North West.

FAF members - particularly dancers and musicians - will need to check the source of funding if they're asked to participate in performances next year.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:18 AM

Goergina. According to thir electoral campaign literature, the BNP plans to allocate 10% of MEP salaries to something which they have called The English Fair Fund. This, they say, is to provide grants to communities planning to celebrate St. George's Day. If I've got my facts correct (which I probably haven't), an MEP's annual salary would equate to somewhere in the region of £72,000. That would mean the allocation sum would be around £14,000, and you can hire an awful lot of Morris dancers for £14,000.

So far as I know the scheme is intended to apply anywhere in England, and is not limited to the two members' constituencies.

In other words, if you are a musician, dancer, organiser, or in any way connected with folk activities, and someone approaches you with an offer you can't refuse, check the small print very carefully.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 11:23 AM

The BNP are fascist. They are also assholes.

Three years back, Joe, you were saying the same stuff for the BNP that you are now. I had hoped for more from you by now. You see a point reasoning with the trash. I don't. Shag the BNP.

You didn't answer any of my questions, Joe.

Should we reason with the BNP?
Should we make nice?
You think that's the best way to deal with Nazis?

Instead of vou coming back to me with, "I thought you'd come up with IDEAS", why the fuck don't you? What are YOUR ideas--because the only one I have left after trying to deal with this shit for over three years is to tell the motherfuckers to drop dead.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing' Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

"My country is the world- My countrymen are mankind", William Lloyd Garrison


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:37 AM

Can I just chuck my tuppence in and say that the issues raised by Georgina and Fred are the things on which we ought to be focusing. The facebook identity theft crap is just playground stuff compared to what the real, hardline fascists are capable of, and if they were involved, believe me we'd know it by now. When your name or your face are on Redwatch, that's the time to really start worrying.

Keep complaining to facebook by all means, but don't take your eye of the real focus of the campaign - because that is exactly what the Facebook/Mudcat troll wants you to do. While you're diverted by petty games, you're not talking about the stuff that matters. Ignore, ignore, ignore.

And with the greatest of respect, Bruce, I'm not sure how productive it is to keep asserting the "fuck the BNP" stance. You know that I equally find it baffling that Mudcat gives a platform to overt fascists, but this might be worth raising in a dedicated thread.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:34 AM

Ruth, the Mudcat has the policy that moderation decisions may not be questioned on open board. So IF one were to take the view that the Mudcat preferred the freedom of speech of fascists to the freedom of speech of its members, that would not be a matter permitted to be discussed on open board and posts on that topic would be deleted.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 10:35 AM

For anyone interested in a tangible action against the fascist menace of the BNP, I urge you to join in the protest against them at their "Red, White & Blue" rally in Codnor, Derbyshire on 15 August.

Unite Against Fascism Have called for a mass demonstration at the village of Codnor in which the hardcore rag-tag bunch of racists and Nazis will be effectively "Kettled" in their lonely field of shame.

The demonstration will be civil, peaceful. It has the consent of the local authorities and Derbyshire Police.

Get the A5 FLYER

Coaches have been booked from around the country - for a list of embarkation points and contact numbers for booking of places, go to COACHES

Or make your own way to Codnor with a view to assembling at 09:00 on 15 August 2009.

Check the Unite Against Fascism Website for updates.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 10:40 AM

Unite Against Fascism is calling on anti-fascists across the country to converge on Codnor, Derbyshire, at 9am on Saturday 15 August to protest against the British National Party rally taking place in the village that weekend.

UAF supporters intend to "kettle" the rally by surrounding it with protesters. This action will demonstrate that the vast majority of people in this country reject the Nazi politics of the BNP.


The BNP pretends that its annual "Red, White and Blue" event is a harmless family-oriented "patriotic" festival. In reality it is aimed at promoting the BNP's fascist agenda to both its hardcore followers and its softer supporters. Previous years have seen SS marching songs played as "entertainment" at the rally.

The rally will also be a magnet for neo-Nazis across Europe. Last year the BNP invited guests including Czech neo-Nazi Petra Edelmannova who has called for a "final solution to the Gypsy issue" and Sweden's Marc Abramsson, a Swedish fascist who campaigns for "racially pure kindergartens" that exclude non-white children.

This year's guests are likely to include representatives of Jobbik, a violently racist Hungarian Nazi party that organises pogroms against Roma people.

Weyman Bennett, joint secretary of Unite Against Fascism, said:

"The BNP's 'Red, White and Blue' is a nothing more than a festival of race hatred. The fascists will use their rally to harden up its supporters and build its army of thugs. Wherever the BNP organises, racist violence follows.

"Allowing this festival to go ahead will mean more race hatred and racist attacks on our streets in the months to come. That is why it is so important for anti-fascists to come to Codnor in huge numbers to surround the BNP's rally.

"The presence of two BNP Nazis in the European parliament also poses challenges for anti-fascists. We need to build the broadest possible movement against the BNP with roots in communities across the country."


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 10:41 AM

surely if one is for freedom of speech and thought then it would only be fair to let the facists post here too.
it would help to remind people of the shit we are fighting.

by allowing them a voice we not only uphold our own ideals but can show the world what complete morons they really are.

anyone is free to think what they want to but they can expect to be challenged if someone disagrees.

my thinking is if you don't like what someone says then either tell them or don't get involved. if i was someone new here and was reading this for the first time and didn't know about the BNP and their ilk, i wouuld want to hear from them so i could make my own mind up.


i would still end up hating what they stand for but i would feel like i have made a desicion based upon my own understanding and by my own free will not the will of others.

no offence to anyone.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM

sorry royston we seem to have cross posted. i really wish that we could go to the rally as it sounds a good way to get our point across as well as making new friends. we have family commitments, who we see only rarely as it is.

we will be watching the news and keep our fingers crossed that everything stays peaceful.
i hope the t shirts will be ready by then as it would be so cool to see most people in them.

stay safe and take care all

jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 11:32 AM

Ruth and Jeddy,

I DO know where you're coming from, but as far as Mudcat is concerned, the BNP post here less than they were for a while likely because calling them what they are--scum--is not what they want their would-be recruits (any they might gather on this forum) to read being said about them.

Ruth, I agree that taking action against them is preferable. When someone attacks, there are limited choices. Complete, pacifism, counter-attack or some mixture of the two. I fail to see what 'reasonableness' has accomplished here, but because it is your thread, and because I do respect your views, I will keep away from here.

Good luck reasoning with them. I doubt that scum will ever recognize reason, but who knows. I still believe in Santa Claus.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 12:00 PM

no need for that bruce!!! i am open to suggestions as to how to deal with the hardcore, that don't make me feel just like them.

we have a reason that they don't. we hate what they stand for and what they are all about, they just hate because they are afraid of anyone and anything different. i do not know all the answers if i did iwould be a very popular prime minister!! yeah right!!

take care all

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM

Actually, it's not my thread, Bruce. :)

I am not suggesting reasoning with them. I don't really see the point in that, either. But I do think that this thread would be best used as a way of discussing activity which people might be planning under the FAF banner, or indeed discussing the issues that FAF raises, such as the posts earlier by Georgina and Fred. I'm not sure that the latest "oooh, look what they've said to me now!" message or repeatedly telling them to "have sex and travel" is necessarily going to move our purpose forward.

I say this with the greatest of respect to everyone who has posted here so far. And it's just my opinion, anyway - no one is under any obligation to take any notice of me whatsoever. :)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM

The other thing you can do on Facebook:

If you know of a copied profile, such as mine, or Bruce or Richard, then you get the page up, look under the photo and press 'Report this person'.....a box will then come up, saying this:

You are about to report a violation of our Terms of Use. All reports are strictly confidential.
If you're reporting someone for an inappropriate group, message, post, etc., please do so through the report link on the page where you see that content.
Block this person
If you block someone, they will not be able to find you in a Facebook search, see your profile, or interact with you through Facebook channels (such as Wall posts, Poke, etc.). Any Facebook ties you currently have with a person you block will be broken (for example, friendship connections, Relationship Status, etc.). Note that blocking someone may not prevent all communications and interactions in third-party applications, and does not extend to elsewhere on the Internet.
Report this person
Reason:
(required) Choose one...
Nudity or pornography Attacks individual or group Fake profile
Additional comments:
(required)

Is this your intellectual property?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM

Oops, it posted too soon...

You simply fill out the form and post it...obvious I know, but I thought I'd just finish my message off.

And....Fook the BNP....of course, which I think would make a rather excellent T shirt and entire range of FAF goods, but, hey.....whadda I know?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM

Lizzie, if you want to start your own "Fucck the BNP" movement and produce a range of associated merchandise, go for your life. But the message we're trying to convey with FAF is somewhat more complex.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM

ruth,
i think what we have been doing is keeping this thread near the top, while waiting for stuff to be sorted, we have simply been filling in time until there is somethig concrete to do or talk about.

i am not annoyed or misdirected by the other stuff, as it is very juvenile, but gives me a laugh and helps me concentrate on what we are doing.

i would still love to have stickers and a t shirt so when people ask what that is about i can tell them. i am begining to bore all who know me and that way people will be coming to me, not me preaching at them.

does that make sense to anyone who cannot read my mind? i hope so!

i can't wait to be able to give out leaflets as i am rather good at getting folks to stop and chat.

i am gutted that we have already been booked for august, however my full support is with all of you who can make it.

take care all

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM

My name is now legion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM

Is this anything like Folk Against Rape, Arson, and Sexual Abuse of Puppies and Small Children? (FARAaSAoPaSC)

If it is, by golly, count me in! I love being a member of a movement based on a moral premise so bloody obvious that even a half-witted hamster can grasp the concept and immediately get onside. There is, after all, security in numbers, right?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:23 PM

No, Little Hawk - it is a specific response to a specific set of circumstances - the attempted appropriation of British folk music and culture by the far right. It is an effort to raise awareness of what the BNP is doing to try and appropriate British folk music and culture, and an opportunity for musicians to respond collectively to the appropriation of their music by the far right.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'

How very true!

Count me in to actually DO something other than spout off 'go forth and multiply' sentiments here

See you at Codnor, Derbyshire.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM

Richard,

My name is now legion...

...for we are many?

But there is only one *Richard* Bridge and those who matter know the difference.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:48 PM

How the heck could the Far Right appropriate folk music in the UK or anywhere else, given the fact that most people who are attracted to folk music are lefties? The BNP must be awfully well organized!

If I was in the UK Far Right (a hideous thought...!) I think I would be far more inclined to appropriate hip-hop or hard rock or heavy metal or punkrock or some kind of music that appeals to skinheads... ;-) I can't see the Far Right becoming that enamoured of Child Ballads, Loreena McKennit, Enya, Morris Dancing, the bodhran and other pleasant stuff like that. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps they are intent on carving out some lebensraum in the heretofore Elysian fields of folk music.

If so, I wish you all the best of luck in combating their vile plans!   ;-)

You know, the funny thing is that in my local circle of folkies here there are several old curmudgeons (all males) who have swung way to the Right in their golden years...farther right in a couple of cases than Attilla the Hun. I put it down to hardening of the arteries or something along that line. They are still much outnumbered by us liberals and lefties, though, so I'm not too worried. Each contingent sings a few songs that annoy the others and we all manage to have a pretty good time on any given evening.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:58 PM

One of them (Mike) likes to say:

"If a person isn't a liberal when he's young, he has no heart. If he hasn't become a conservative by the time he gets to be old, he has no brains."

Needless to say, I disagree with Mike's proverb. ;-) I've met brainy people and rather heartless people on both sides of the political divide...and in every age group as well.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:14 PM

Little Hawk, the reasons behind the campaign have been discussed exhaustively up the thread. It might be a good idea to have a read befire deciding whether the threat is real or not.

Have a look at the facebook page:

Folk Against Fascism facebook group


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:20 PM

"I can't see the Far Right becoming that enamoured of Child Ballads, Loreena McKennit, Enya, Morris Dancing, the bodhran and other pleasant stuff like that. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps they are intent on carving out some lebensraum in the heretofore Elysian fields of folk music."

Well yeah - they are, actually. And of your examples above, it's the English ones they're most interested in, because they are intent on aligning "Englishness" with their racist agenda. They have their own morris side. There are BNP activists in my local morris side, as it happens. And, if you have a look at the link I posted, you'll se ethat they actively encourage their campaigners to infiltrate traditional events.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM

"How the heck could the Far Right appropriate folk music in the UK or anywhere else, given the fact that most people who are attracted to folk music are lefties?"


This is a huge assumption, and it's certainly not borne out by my experience - least of all on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:28 PM

Yes, I see. It's an interesting situation, Ruth. It's very common for extremely nationalistic and rightwing political forces to celebrate the old traditions of their local culture (music included). It's natural for them to do that, matter of fact, because they will always emphasize such local traditions as opposed to anything new that is coming from outside the traditional culture.

This is on the one hand quite sincere on their part...although they may be using it in the service of a very reactionary political agenda.

I can well understand why you are concerned about it.

Hitler's movement loved the old folk music traditions of Germany, the old folk tales, the heraldry, the cultural past, and all that sort of traditional German stuff. And why wouldn't they?

Sometimes the "wrong" people (politically speaking) do like many of the "right" things. This is because, like it or not, we often share a number of cultural and ethical values with people with whom we disagree markedly on politics...or religion. I find that all the time. It can surprise you what you have in common with your bitterest political opponents if you take some time and get to know some of them as real people.

That doesn't mean you are obliged to like or approve of their politics.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:34 PM

LH it ain't even that 'simple'
A few years back when the BNP attempted to 'use' mudcat to propogate their message of racial hatred they posted some 'modern folk songs' on here

As far as I'm aware they are still available in the archives but I really don't want to give a link to that kind of material.

It's not just about 'tradition' it's what you use it for!

Now honestly I feel that discussions of this kind belong to a seperate thread


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM

Last 'Season' LH, the BNP (nee NF) were infiltrating and appropriating our great British institution of football. What larks!

*Now* if people think 'football', they don't think "fun day out with the kids", they think "violent, skinhead, paki-bashing fun."

Job done then.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM

"Sometimes the "wrong" people (politically speaking) do like many of the "right" things. This is because, like it or not, we often share a number of cultural and ethical values with people with whom we disagree markedly on politics...or religion. I find that all the time. It can surprise you what you have in common with your bitterest political opponents if you take some time and get to know some of them as real people.

That doesn't mean you are obliged to like or approve of their politics. "

That's not the threat we're actually facing at the moment. The BNP,as an entity, is deliberately trying to appropriate folk customs, events and music as part of their racist political agenda.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 07:12 PM

Little Hawk, at times your "confucius once say..." lines of rambling pseduo-reason can be incredibly tiresome.

The BNP leadership are violent white-supremacist terrorists. They love Hitler and they deny the holocaust. They seek power for its own sake and they will wade through the blood of innocents to achieve it. This is not my opinion, this is a reasoned assessment of them and their objectives based on their actual criminal convictions to date.

They have mixed up a half-true delusion of folk-history to justify their lunacy and to stir up the darkest and most craven instincts in their running-dogs.

They know nothing of their true history and heritage, and they care even less about it and the British people as a whole.

Their claim to be the sole upholders of folk-arts and tradition is just a cynical power-play that has no greater depth than their ability to illegally copy artist's performances and sell them on rip-off CD's from their 'white-power' websites. The music site is actually called "Blood and Honour".

That is why the people that actually work to preserve and perform our musical and artistic heritage are standing up to say "Not in my name" and to repudiate the siren call of these worthless would-be tyrants.

To stay quiet while ruminating on some pseudo-intellectual assessment of what common ground we might share with these dangerous idiots would be a gross dereliction of our obligations as decent human beings. You may be happy with that, thankfully there are plenty of folk who are not.


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