Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM I don't want to see people like Joan and George repatriated |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM I was reluctant to join facebook,but since this is such an important issue,I have joined Folk against Fascism. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM Only a suggestion. Could this thread be mainly used for promoting the facebook group, promoting folk against facism gigs and events, discussions on the role of folk song and music in standing up to oppression both now and historically, and providing an opportunity for performers and audiences to identify themselves under the folk against fascism banner. That would then keep the political debate in the two BS threads, and hopefully keep the trolls and BNP propagandists out of this one. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group. "Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister". There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them. But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me. You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Spleen Cringe Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM I always slightly worry when the spokespeople for these sorts of protests try to claim they are acting with the moral authority of their community - who elected them? I think it would be a far more honest and powerful statement to say: "The first egg was for holocaust denial. The second was for inciting racial hatred. The third was for anti-semitism. The forth was for being a liar..." and so on. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,FTF ? Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:01 AM Crow Sister - Please elaborate upon your statement - SOURCE - Three Sources??? As others have commented German folk music has never fully recovered from the stain of being forced into prostitution to very dark political ends. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM "Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever! " I'll second that! We have laws against inciting racial hatred, which is what BNP members do ever time they speak in public. The egg-throwers were merely drawing attention to the fact that these people need to be silenced or their invidious views could influence people, especially those who are exercising their voting rights for the first time, into thinking that this is legitimate politics. Folk music has a long and honourable tradition of opposing extremism of this sort and I welcome the opportunity to be part of movement like Folk Against Fascism. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:47 AM Over 800 members already! When I first looked at the site yesterday, it must have been brand new as it had about 30 members. Looking forward to seeing the website when up and running. Will the organiser/s be seeking charity status? I don't know how constructive or otherwise such a move might be, but it would seem a possible logical option for fund raising activities directed at awareness raising. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM Like prostitution and drug dealing it goes underground. On the surface it can be managed. There is no way of rebutting arguments that are made behind closed doors. Those two youths could be persuaded at any time. They are less likely to be persuaded if there are other voices there pointing out the errors and misinformation of the BNP argument. The key with all of the above is openness and honest well documented non judgemental information. An educated person is a well armed and well prepared person. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Kampervan Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease. Loathsome though the BNP may be, we have to use open democratic ways to defeat them; otherwise they go underground and become even more difficult to counter. They are riding on the wake of the mess that the main parties have created. It's up to everyone of all political persuasions to help put right the sleaze and corruption and then make mainstream politics more attractive. That way voters won't feel the need to register a protest vote with bigots like the BNP. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM Some of the respondents above don't seem to have grasped the point about freedom of speech and fascists. They don't like freedom of speech, but are prepared to abuse it if people are foolish enough to give them a platform. It is not about a civilised debate with reason and evidence prevailing. In an audience of 100, if 98 smug liberals walk away congratulating themselves that they have 'won ' the argument', but two despersate, angry and dispossesed youths are attracted to the fascist methods, and join, the fascists have a huge result. They would laugh at self satisfied dismissals, and continue to prey on the vulnerable, which the liberals have provided them with. If this 'Debate' is legitimised by a public institution like a University or church, the result is harrassment of local minority groups, who see those who hate them being given credibility. NO platform for Racists and fascists.....believe me, after being involved in these issues for over 35 years, every inch given is a probable mile taken. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM I just applied to the Folk Against Fascism Myspace site. However, I ain't folk. Unless folk is the term used for people. I am that. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM i am in two minds here as are a lot of you i am sure. as much as i would love to ban any bnp supporter from ever talking their crap on any platform, i also don't want to be just like them in that not everyone has a right to free speech. i would rather have them say what they want on places like this and have them shown for the ignorant, racist,etc. that they are. than them meeting in secret and jumping out of bushes with no way of knowing what they are up to and where they will go next. sorry if that made no sense but i am sure you can work out where i was trying to go with it. the protsters have just as much right to be heard as the people they were protesting about it is about convincing the public of which side has the better arguement, as for the eggs... i dissagree with any violence and any form of assult, but i must admit if i had seen it i probably would have found it funny. i think we need to stay together and not to argue some small point that will ultimately lead to falling out amongst ourselves the people united, will never be defeated. if we all do our bit then victory will be ours. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM Not specifically, Tom. I didn't intend any offense to you. If you took any, sorry. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM If I was a middle bar singer at Sidmouth and Georgina Dale[MBSGeorge the unsuccessful BNP Chippenham candidate ] turned up I would walk out . |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSilentOne Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM Folk Against Fascism is a great idea, and hopefully will develop into a great movement. A long time ago I was in the Anti-Nazi League. I don't think denying the BNP any platform is an effective tactic, but I DO think the opportunity should be taken to hold counter-demonstrations on every possible occasion. I do have a dilemma because I can't accept that an organisation which excludes non-whites from membership should even have the right to exist in a democratic society. But.. I don't see how it can sensibly be banned. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM Sorry Lox - that was to Peace Tom |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM Sorry, is that addressed at me? By all means, as many as they want. This is Mudcat's greatest strength (and greatest weakness). Our job is not to silence them (tempting though that is), it is to be better informed and more convincing than they are - and also to address the the things that cause people to support the BNP in the first place. Because it is surely all of our faults that they exist, and now have that voice. Tom Bliss |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM I don't condone the throwing of eggs. I think it undermines the protest and allows the BNP to claim the moral high ground. Note that I did not say it gives them the moral high ground, just that it allows them to claim it. I completely condone Folk against Fascism as it constitutes a forum in which the issue of Fascist politics can be constructively and informatively be addressed. Bubblyrat, well done for voting the way you did. My personal view is that UKIP are atrocious, but they are at least a party of issues, even if only on a shallow level. Your vote for the Greens well and truly puts me in my place. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM Or are people going to give 'freedom of speech' lip service? |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM Then tell management to allow the BNP as many threads as they want. NOT just one. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM As with when we vote for parliament, it's all about numbers. If there's one post here supporting or appearing to support the BNP, let there be hundreds, thousands, saying the opposite. I say the opposite. Let them have their say, but let it be a whisper against a roar for reason, decency, tolerance, goodwill, equality and welcome. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:58 PM "Then let's DO that on their fucking site. NOT on MUdcat." It's called freedom of speech...deny that and as has been pointed out, you become as bad as the enemy |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jeri Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM Keeping people from posting is like keeping people from shouting out their opinions on a crowded city street corner. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Kampervan Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM Sorry Mrs Duck, but I believe that you're wrong. I loath the BNP and their view of the world, but the minute that you remove their right to speak then you become as bad as them. The important to thing to do is to speak against them and make sure that everyone knows the evil that lies behind their propaganda. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM " Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever!" Let them speak, with every lie they tell, they dig their grave deeper. By th way (and I blame JoanieC for this, *LOL*) I'm now a member of facebook and am a member of the Folk Against Fascism group, seek out the photograph of the cover of Battle of the Field (in seemed appropriate. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:33 PM Mudcat management seems to disagree with you, Mrs Duck. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Mrs.Duck Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever! |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: VirginiaTam Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:25 PM Damn! What I miss because I can't access Mudcat at work. Well, I am not going to rise to the dissenters. Not worth my time. What I am going to say is YAYRAH Joanie! I will add both Facebook and Myspace as friends or join the group or whatever it is I do, forthwith. Hmmm? Is there a Folk Against Facism on Twitter? |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:24 PM Bubblyrat, I think as JC/Eddie may have stated, that the egg throwers are not likely to be amongst this exceedingly new gathering of folk enthusiasts - who are joining in order to express their collective objection (as they are right to do?) to the appropriation of folk music to a very specific and ugly right-wing political agenda. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Lock and Key Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM Well said (as usual) George. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM Bubblyrat...if you're not going to help, please don't hinder those of us who're prepared to stand and be counted! It's that simple! |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: George Papavgeris Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:55 PM No hate over here, Roger. Quite a lot of joy in fact, at living in a multi-ethnic, multicultural street, and I celebrated it in a song, which hopefully should be going up on the FAF Myspace page soon (thanks, Steve), albeit in a rough, unmixed version. It is intended as the opening track of my upcoming album, so it puts my stake in the ground so to speak. Here goes: STREET LIFE (October 2008 - all the characters are real) Monday morning, treading softly as I leave the house for work Chris next door had late shift Sunday night Full-time guard and part-time fireman, not a moment to himself And to wake him up would not be right. Tuesday and Mujeeb's good lady's grinding spices for their meal Aromas through the window they escape We all stop outside a moment just to savour the perfume It's a wonder how he stays in shape A different story every day of the week As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet And I don't care much where they come from Who they pray to, what they eat, But I am lucky living down our street Seven thirty, engines starting, scrapers scratching at the ice Hunter gatherers barely half awake Smiling grimly at each other, p'rhaps today will turn out nice Thursday morning, two more trips to make Janusz waiting by his front door for his morning lift to come Sandwich and banana in a towel All day working up the scaffold to bring home his daily crumb He's so good with mortar board and trowel A different story every day of the week As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet And I don't care much where they come from Who they pray to, what they eat, But I am lucky living down our street Love you Mummy, Love you Daddy, down at Number 54 Little angels on their way to school Hop skip jumping to whatever life might have for them in store May their winter years never be cruel. Friday night, the youngsters heading for the town to paint it red Learning lessons others learned before They'll be back before the day breaks, empty pockets, throbbing heads (they'd) Better not be banging on the door A different story every day of the week As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet And I don't care much where they come from Who they pray to, what they eat, But I am lucky living down our street Sunday morning, dozen mowers buzzing like a swarm of bees Perfect time for barbecue and beer Cross the valley watch the walkers chasing dogs among the trees And I swear that I've just seen a deer. Sunday evening, all is quiet, windows darken one by one Like a tunnel swallowing a train Soon enough alarms will ring like cockerels heralding the sun And we'll start the cycle once again A different story every day of the week As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet And I don't care much where they come from Who they pray to, what they eat, But I am lucky living down our street |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM It's DEMOCRACY. I have no truck with what went on today. It's the same as Mandelson getting green custard in the face though - and I didn't see your comment on that 'bubblyrat' The BNP has a right to exist, and we have the right to harrangue, verbally not physically, so I believe the idiots who threw eggs today have done the BNP a favour. Woe is me. John Barden |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM As far as I know, it was no member of the Folk Against Fascism group that threw eggs at Nick Griffin, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at. This is about a specific agenda and set of policies - the appropriation of British traditional music and culture to suit a racist and nationalist agenda. It's about raising awareness of that attampted appropriation, and standing up against it. It is not about throwing eggs at Nick Griffin or preventing him from speaking, no matte rhow poisonous his views might be, and not long before you psoted on this matter, I was explaining exactly that to my 15 year old daughter. So I'm not sure who you're screeching at, but I think your tirade might be somewhat misdirected. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:20 PM Sorry? Mine's not what? The Folk Against Fascism campaign has nothing whatsoever to do with denying free speech or chucking eggs at people. Shaky eggs, maybe... |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM Bubblyrat.... I don't think anyone here were involved in disrupting their Press conference..... surely in this country of free speech we are allowed to get our point across as well? Through words and songs I hope! |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: bubblyrat Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM Well, I just watched the evening news on BBC television,and was saddened to see and hear about the disruption to the BNP's Press Conference----it would have been interesting to see what they had to say !! This organisation,which I do NOT support ( I voted Green & UKIP in the recent elections,if you must know), is,however, NOT illegal (sadly) and therefore there is NO justification for the crass behaviour of the baying mob that disrupted its activities. So who is being the more intolerant, controlling,bigoted,selective and prejudiced here then ?? Even if you HATE HATE HATE the BNP,which most of you / us do, they STILL HAVE THE RIGHT ,in our democracy,both to their views and to be heard.Only a REAL FASCIST would deny them that !!! That's the point that I am trying to get across,that my father fought for in WW2,and to which your intense HATRED has blinded you.There are ways to get rid of the BNP---But yours is not it ! Or is Democracy itself that you REALLY hate,because that's how you are coming across ? Is it too permissive for your Fascist views ?? |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM I've put the following on my 'Facebook' page 'In memory of my Tollpudle brothers, I am delighted to join my fellows in the 'Folk against fascism' fight. We ARE the power, we ARE the might, we ARE the ones, who will show what's wrong and right. John Barden |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:58 PM Oh, that CNP :o) Yes, I know that symbol as "the peace symbol". Thanks for that info. And btw, I've joined the MySpace page and will forward information about that page to my MySpace friends. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM Agreed George. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: George Papavgeris Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM I'm there, on both. My concern is that there should be follow-up; not just people signing up and thinking they've done their bit. This isn't simply a petition, I see it as signing-on for action. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:04 PM Folk Against Fascism Myspace I should add that while I've actually been working today, other people have been beavering away at this stuff. Steve Hunt made the Myspace. Chris Williams made the logo. All credit. I'm just the messenger. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Matthew Edwards Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:47 PM Well done to JoanieC for setting this up. Another disturbing feature of the European election results has been the election of MEPs from the extreme Jobbik party in Hungary. This is an openly anti-semitic party which has also supported persecution of the Roma community. This Observer report of 3 May 2009 shows how widespread and dangerous the persecution of Gypsies in Hungary has already become, and what the Jobbik policy towards the Roma means. So since June 2009 is Gypsy Roma Traveller History Month lets celebrate the cultural achievements of these communities too. There is a very interesting looking DVD on sale called 'The First Traveller' with songs stories and music, including a contribution from Sheila Stewart MBE. Matthew Edwards |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM Thanks for that clarification, Eddie. Count me in! I guess because the organization is for anyone who opposes the BNP's attempt or any other White Supremacist organization's attempt to appropriate British national customs and music as part of their racist strategies, you may not have to include explanations of what all those more obscure (to non-British people) alphabet references like CND mean. However, it still might be something that you want to provide on your page or website for those who are supporting the organization from outside of the UK. |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Spleen Cringe Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM Great idea Joan. I've joined up. BTW, I reckon if they come knocking you'd be better off pushing the dogpoo out of the letter box at them! Now off to listen to 'Battle of the Field' on the way home... |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Amos Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:40 PM Correction: "One of the most widely known symbols in the world, in Britain it is recognised as standing for nuclear disarmament —and in particular as the logo of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). In the United States and much of the rest of the world it is known more broadly as the peace symbol. It was designed in 1958 by Gerald Holtom, a professional designer and artist and a graduate of the Royal College of Arts. He showed his preliminary sketches to a small group of people in the Peace News office in North London and to the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War, one of several smaller organisations that came together to set up CND. The Direct Action Committee had already planned what was to be the first major anti-nuclear march, from London to Aldermaston, where British nuclear weapons were and still are manufactured. It was on that march, over the 1958 Easter weekend that the symbol first appeared in public. Five hundred cardboard lollipops on sticks were produced. Half were black on white and half white on green. Just as the church's liturgical colours change over Easter, so the colours were to change, "from Winter to Spring, from Death to Life." Black and white would be displayed on Good Friday and Saturday, green and white on Easter Sunday and Monday. The first badges were made by Eric Austin of Kensington CND using white clay with the symbol painted black. Again there was a conscious symbolism. They were distributed with a note explaining that in the event of a nuclear war, these fired pottery badges would be among the few human artifacts to survive the nuclear inferno. These early ceramic badges can still be found and one, lent by CND, was included in the Imperial War Museum's 1999/2000 exhibition From the Bomb to the Beatles. " |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Amos Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM Azizi: THe people who first used what later became the "Peace" symbol were British anti-nuke demonstrators who frequently marched under the flag of the Committee for Nuclear Disarmament, with banners showing the semaphoric lines-in-a-circle that (rumor has it) was first designed by GB Shaw. The symbol was taken up and made even more widely known by the youth of the Sixties in the US who used it to symbolize protest against the LBJ War in Vietnam. A |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM Azizi, it's for anyone who opposes what the BNP is currently doing in the UK by trying to appropriate our national customs and music as part of their racist agenda, or indeed what any White Supremacist organisation (for, by identifying that they share values with the KKK, this is what they are) do when they try and usurp a national identity and claim it as theirs and theirs alone. The focus will largely be on the campaign as it unfolds in the UK. But you will be most welcome. :) |
Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: mandotim Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM Well done Joan, I'm in. |
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