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Folk Against Fascism

Royston 14 Jun 09 - 06:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 09 - 06:50 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jun 09 - 07:08 PM
Royston 14 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM
Kampervan 14 Jun 09 - 07:34 PM
Kampervan 15 Jun 09 - 02:44 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Jun 09 - 02:58 AM
fairplay 15 Jun 09 - 03:09 AM
Fred McCormick 15 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM
Fred McCormick 15 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM
theleveller 15 Jun 09 - 04:42 AM
Lox 15 Jun 09 - 05:01 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM
Jack Campin 15 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 06:33 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 06:55 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 07:37 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 08:04 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 08:33 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jun 09 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Surreysinger at work 15 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Jun 09 - 09:10 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Neil D 15 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM
Dave Earl 15 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM
TheSnail 15 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 15 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM
Stringsinger 15 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Andrew Wigglesworth 15 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM
Fred McCormick 15 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM
Andrew Wigglesworth 15 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Trev 15 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM
SPB-Cooperator 15 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 04:24 AM
Vic Smith 16 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM
Lox 16 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM
Azizi 16 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 08:48 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM
Andy Jackson 16 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 09:46 AM
greg stephens 16 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:46 PM

Lizzie, another tenet that sees me well through life is "Never argue with a fool...other people eventually will have difficulty seeing which one is the fool."

If you think that there are people who see roast beef and cricket as "racist" then you need to put down the Daily Mail and find a less harmful comic to read.

Fred McCormick...do some research please and stop making the BNP look more credible. Their press officer uses "Dr. Phil Edwards" as a pseudonym. His real name is Stuart Russell and he runs a company that makes fireworks, which makes him an explosives expert (anyone else find this worrying?)

He does not have a PhD, he is not a doctor. Just another vile lying racist fascist agitator that must be exposed as such.

Hitler came to power by legal, democratic means. 'Nuff said.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 06:50 PM

People, please take a step back. We should be fighting them! You don't need to book anyone different. Just point out that the music showcased at your club is, by it's very nature, multi-cultural and inclusive. Stop the bastards from taking it over by pointing out that by supporting traditional music they are in fact supporting multi-ethnicity (is there such a word?) and, hopefuly, they will drop it liek a hot potato.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:08 PM

"Lizzie, another tenet that sees me well through life is "Never argue with a fool...other people eventually will have difficulty seeing which one is the fool."










Absolutely.














"If you think that there are people who see roast beef and cricket as "racist" then you need to put down the Daily Mail and find a less harmful comic to read."

I was told that to love the sight of cricket being played on village greens was to dream of an English idyll that no longer exists and therefore, it showed that I was racist. What a complete load of poppycock.

There was an excellent piece in the Daily Mail the other day, about the BNP, saying what absolute scum they are. Strange, for such a 'racist' paper. Still, being told that did at least shut 'The Daily Mail Reader' guest poster, up in the BNP thread.

Folk Against Facism:

Badges
T Shirts
Baseball Hats
Tankards
Things to stick on your guitar/mandolin/musical whatnot/morris dancer hat, clogs, bags, and/or various protruding body parts....
Posters (clever designs only)
Book marks
The dreaded Fridge Magnets
Cuddly toys, so the children get the message early on
Christmas cards
Birthday cards
Banners to put in/on your caravan/car/camel
With an English flag on and with flags from all around the world
CDs of anti-facist songs
Poetry books
Youtube videos
FAF at the RAH
........ad infinitum


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM

And while we're at it (worrying about the moral equivalence of the BNP and whether they should enjoy the same rights as other "democratic" groups) ponder on this.

Before 7/7/2005, the only non-Irish terrorist act in the UK were two deadly explosions in London perpetrated by BNP member David Copeland.

The largest seizure of explosive materials linked to terrorist intentions (including seizures related to Al Qaeda and IRA) was held by BNP members Robert Cottage and David Nelson. (Lancashire 2007)

Last week another BNP member and white supremacist (Ian Davison, Co. Durham) was arrested and the nerve-agent Ricin was found at his home.

The only reason the fascists haven't managed a terrorist atrocity is that they are much more fully infiltrated by the security services (thank God!).

"DeG", the mindblowing thing is that there are fellow "folkers" (whom I have always regarded as more intelligent and free-thinking than average) that could even contemplate the BNP as having a shred of legitimacy. Shame on us!!!!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 07:34 PM

So, to precis the closing remarks of a TV series that backtracked all of the people's on earth to their origins:-
'Wherever we've ended up in the world, we're all African under the skin'.

Bet the BNP didn't sponsor that one.

Focus on the real goal - defeat the fascist bigots.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 02:44 AM

Damn, where did that stray apostrophe come from?
It should have read
.....peoples...


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 02:58 AM

I'm Phil Edwards!

No, really. That is actually my name. (I've even got a doctorate, although I hardly ever use the title.) Which made it particularly annoying for me when the BNP's former Press Officer decided to use that name as his pseudonym. (More here.)

Fortunately he was on the wrong side of the recent spat within the party, and is no longer Press Officer; he may not even be a member. Either way, he's not getting his name - or rather my name - in the papers any longer, and good riddance.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: fairplay
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 03:09 AM

Ruth

Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm glad you've disassociated yourself from the paramilitary politics of UAF. Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM

Phil,

Sorry for the embarressment. Turns out Press Officer Phil Edwards' real name is Stuart Russell and his daughter is one Julie Russell. Again, I can't find her name on the membership list, but she is apparently a hobnobber with Jean Marie Le Pen.

BTW., the BNP seems to shed recalcitrant members faster than a fox sheds fleas. Where on earth do they all go?


I'm Phil Edwards!

No, really. That is actually my name. (I've even got a doctorate, although I hardly ever use the title.) Which made it particularly annoying for me when the BNP's former Press Officer decided to use that name as his pseudonym. (More here.)

Fortunately he was on the wrong side of the recent spat within the party, and is no longer Press Officer; he may not even be a member. Either way, he's not getting his name - or rather my name - in the papers any longer, and good riddance.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM

Royston: "Fred McCormick...do some research please and stop making the BNP look more credible. Their press officer uses "Dr. Phil Edwards" as a pseudonym. His real name is Stuart Russell and he runs a company that makes fireworks"

Sorry if I wasn't up to speed with 'Phil Edwards' identity. Watching the BNP is like watching a pile of woodlice. You see one, then you see more. Then there's a whole festering mess of them. And they all look the same.

"Hitler came to power by legal, democratic means."

Not strictly true. It's true the nazis came to power in 1933 as the largest party, but not with an overall majority. And Hitler was made chancellor because the powersthatbe thought that would bring him into line. It didn't. Moreover, the only time the nazis acheived an overall majority was after Hitler's chancellorship, and after the nazis had slung all of their opponents in jail.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:42 AM

"Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association. "

LOL! How did you come to dream up that little gem? Support for UAF comes from a wide range of unions such as the NUT, NASWT, UNITE, The University and College Union, and other respected organisations. (Hey, it's those schoolteachers you have to watch out for - they can be a pretty violent lot!!!)

Right wing apologists like you who try to discredit anti-fascist organisations are exactly why I joined Folk Against Fascism.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:01 AM

Fair play

You have ignored the matter of "the Doc"

What is your response?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM

Vic Smith said:-

"those involved spend more time and energy on nit-picking internecine rows than addressing the ghastly right-wing horrors that they oppose."

I have to say that it looks to me as if Vic has summed it up nicely.

We know what BNP is about and we know why FAF was set up. Can we please keep our discussions on topic.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM

Last week another BNP member and white supremacist (Ian Davison, Co. Durham) was arrested and the nerve-agent Ricin was found at his home.

It's a haemagglutinin, not a nerve agent. The toxic syndrome it produces is a bit like meningitis or viper venom.

Not particularly easy stuff to use, which is why the military never adopted it. I don't suppose we'll ever be told what the BNP intended to do with it. I can think of one possibility which I'm keeping to myself.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 06:33 AM

Dave Earl

Can we please keep our discussions on topic.

I suppose I have to put my hand up as one of the most argumentative people on this thread but I think I have been on topic. I see little point in engaging with the BNP trolls; you're never going to persuade them of anything and it only gives them a platform.

"Brit Folk" is under threat from the BNP. As far as I am concerned, the best way of defending it is for as many people as possible who are not racists or fascists to sing it, play it, dance it or simply listen and watch. Folknacious's position that we should be embarrassed about British traditional music and that promoting it without sounding like the BNP manifesto was "Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult." struck me as giving in without a fight.

Greg is an excellent fellow whose particular thing is incorporating influences from diverse cultures into his music. I have heard the result and it is superb. (I have heard others try the same thing with rather lamentable results.) He seems intent on defending this position despite the fact that nobody is attacking it.

Where I do take issue with him is when he says -

To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues.

He seems to be suggesting that we should promote music we are not interested in purely to make a political statement. Sorry but no. My main motivation is the music. Within that context I will oppose racism.

I am also concerned that he is throwing out unspecific accusations of racism which can only damage the image of folk. I still don't know what he means by "If people want to run a white folk club...".

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 06:55 AM

Yes Bryan BUT.

What we want is to stop the BNP usurping traditional Music/Song/Dance for their political purposes.

What I think we need to do is carry on with our involvement in whatever our individual keenness is but be on watch for new supporters (?sponsors?)who could turn out to be the BNP in disguise. Who might later try to claim what you are doing is demonstrating the rightness of their policies.

What I think the thread should be about is how our various Clubs/Festivals/Dance sides are going to present a "Common Front" to resist the intrusion of BNP.

Thats certainly why I signed up to the Facebook thing.

I just don't think that the toing and froing that I see in this thread is going anywhere near achieving the above objective.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 07:37 AM

What would you have me do, Dave?

Bryan


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:04 AM

Well Bryan I suppose what we all need to do is formulate a common approuch to the potential intrusion by BNP and also kick up a stink about the CDs they are selling through the Exacibur site (have the artists given their consent?)

I'm sorry but I don't think the bickering that's going on is going to help.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:33 AM

Well Bryan I suppose what we all need to do is formulate a common approuch to the potential intrusion by BNP

I've offered my suggestion. I don't much like the others.

and also kick up a stink about the CDs they are selling through the Exacibur site (have the artists given their consent?)

As I pointed out to Folknacious it was me that first drew attention to that and, no, the artists have not given their consent.

Bryan


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:45 AM

Well I am rather amused by the BNP's latest little spasm. They have now created on facebook (and used to post to the FaF group) a "Richard Bridge" identity using a reverse of Robin Loxley's picture overlaid with a BNP slogan. How silly do they look?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Surreysinger at work
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM

Dave - re the CDs being sold through Excalibur - both Dame Vera Lynn's and the folk ones, it's already well established that the artists (on the whole) are only too well aware of the fact that their work is being sold through the BNP website. However, it has also been established that there is nothing they can do about it for copyright reasons, and their consent or otherwise to the sale of these CDs (which I believe are on sale elsewhere) is neither needed or legally required. There were press articles back in February about both Dame Vera Lynn and Phil Beer and Steve Knightley's problems in this area, and their concern over the situation (sadly I can't link to them while here at work, due to the antiquated software on this machine!!)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:10 AM

Snail said: it was me that first drew attention to blah blah blah

Not it wasn't. It's been a fRoots discussion subject for many a year. Here's one:

BNP move in on folk music
which refers back specifically to:
Neil Mackay in the Grauniad
and Emma Hartley"s Torygraph blog.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM

I think Bryan meant in this thread.

But we should not be scoring points off each other. There are much wider issues that should have our attention.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

There are much wider issues that should have our attention

Like reading the background in the links provided, for a start. For instance, the "English Country Music Band" (which is actually the core of a well-known ceilidh band) did a one-off recording session for which they were paid a standard fee. They weren't given the option of any rights to how their music was distributed and didn't know about its inclusion before being told about it. They can't do anything.

One lesson is to read contracts very, very carefully.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM

The fact that the BNP were taking an interest in folk music has, indeed, been known for a long time. It was on a Mudcat thread on the subject that I posted my dsicovery of the Excalibur sales three days before the fRoots thread that Diane quotes was started. Neither of the articles she quotes make any reference to the sale of other peoples CDs through Excalibur.

If someone had reported on it before, all well and good but my post did seem to set the ball rolling.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM

But it's that bit about black people never having produced a Mozart or a Dickens which showed up this alleged intellectual for the ethnocentric moron he really is.

Drop a Mozart or a Dickens into the Serengeti or the rain forests of New Guinea and see how long they would survive. Any New Guinean child can name every single plant and animal in his environment. I know I can't. In case you ever have need to debate against the racist argument of Eurocentric superiority, read "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM

"One lesson is to read contracts very, very carefully."

Yes it seems that BNP have got away with this because artists were perhaps not sufficiently aware of what they had permitted in their contracts.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM

"But it's that bit about black people never having produced a Mozart or a Dickens which showed up this alleged intellectual for the ethnocentric moron he really is."

Yes I agree but that is not what FAF is about. We want to stop B.N.P. high jacking our art form for their political purposes.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM

Snail is beginning to sound like the "discovery" of Lots Of Fans by a person from Sidmouth.

The fRoots thread which mentions Excalibur (among other aspects) wasn't the first, only the most recent and I couldn't be arsed to flag up more. Do your own searching. There have been murmurings and mutterings about musical expropriation by the nasty right for decades. Nick Griffin's been lurking about at kRusby gigs for years, David Hannam's been doing skinhead barbecues tp promote his ditties and suspicious waxings have been on display at wifty-wafty heritage shops for a very long time, and widely complained about.
Importantly, FaF will be a unified front to get something done.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM

Your lawyer is your FRIIIEEEENNNNDDDD!

And wasn't Beethoven black?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

Not sure, but this chap was.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM

"Ruth

Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm glad you've disassociated yourself from the paramilitary politics of UAF. Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association"

DMR, your anti socialist slip is showing sunshine. Anyone who disagrees with your VERY questionable position is considered too radical etc, etc...blah blah blah!, which is laughable when you consider some of the tactics of the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM

One of my heroes is Louis Armstrong who changed the face of popular music in America,
something Mozart could not have done.

A case can be said that White People have been responsible for brutality and mass murder if you wanted to generalize as the BNP seems to do. Hitler and Stalin were both white.

We can dismiss the arguments of the BNP easily and their trumped-up views of "sociobiology" which are grossly distorted. They don't understand that racial classifications are not given important emphasis by social biologists and that they are arbitrary.

In fact, many anthropologists believe that "heterosis", the mixing of races produce a more resilient and healthy offspring than between two of the same race which might be closer to the degeneration found when close cousins marry.

The important thing to remember here is that there are all kinds of misconceptions about race and its relationship to culture which entail different value systems. The idea that a Darwinian concept of "natural selection" in race-based cultures is scientifically specious.
Darwin never implied anything of the kind. Even "survival of the fittest" is not a quote from Darwin but from Herbert Spencer, an English philosopher. The BNP seem to embrace Lamark in a view that cultural traits are inherited genetically and this has been disprovable by Mendel and other scientific discoveries.

In short, BNP is full of crap.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM

theleveller

"Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association. "

LOL! How did you come to dream up that little gem? Support for UAF comes from a wide range of unions such as the NUT, NASWT, UNITE, The University and College Union, and other respected organisations. (Hey, it's those schoolteachers you have to watch out for - they can be a pretty violent lot!!!)

Right wing apologists like you who try to discredit anti-fascist organisations are exactly why I joined Folk Against Fascism.

--------------

"Fairplay" didn't dream up of that by him or herself, it is the routine propaganda line by the BNP. As such, "Fairplay" is playing the role of a fascist apologist.

I've been concerned about the BNP's wish to encroach on what they call "indigenous British music" for some while. They don't seem to have put much serious work into it so far, but with the funds that will be flowing into their coffers from the European Parliamentary game we have to assume that all areas of their activity and propaganda will be increased.

Any more news on a Folk Against Fascism website? I personally don't do Facebook or Myspace (even if Myspace have resolutely refused to delete an old profile).


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM

Andrew Wigglesworth. "I've been concerned about the BNP's wish to encroach on what they call "indigenous British music" for some while. They don't seem to have put much serious work into it......."

BNP MEPs have already pledged 10% of their annual salaries to the English Fair fund, which is something they've set up to help "local communities" celebrate St. Georges Day.

If you look at their Activists Handbook (downloadable from the BNP website) it lists all kinds of activities which activists are supposed to engage in. They include instigating/helping with calendar customs, joining residents associations, starting community patrols, litter picks, and providing help for old people.

They regard all these activities as "image building". I'd regard it as window dressing. In practice, though, the BNP don't seem to engage in any of these things and it's likely there aren't enough party activists at the moment to do anything but fulminate against Muslims. It's possible therefore, that if their membership starts to grow significantly, and once they've got their hands on this EU cash, they'll start to take on some of these other activities. That, I think is when they'll try and muscle in on the folk revival.

If they do, send the bastards away with a collective flea in their ears.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM

Fred, are you disagreeing with me?

No, that's not meant to be an "point scoring" comment since I think that you're expanding upon the point that I was making... but leaving off the "so far" from your quote of my comment completely changes it's context.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

And wasn't Beethoven black?

He probably is now.

I'll get my coat on the way out...

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Trev
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM

Many dont object to the BNP because of its litterpicking activities; they are reviled because of their disgusting racism ,fascism and general thuggishness.
They can try to window dress their policies all they like but they are still the same old nazi thugs,bigots and racists.
If they had their way they would attempt to deport the non white population of this country and would plunge this country into a race war or apartheid style regime.
Can you imagine BNP representatives as school governors or as NHS board members?It doesn't bear thinking about.
The ones I bumped into recently were a disgraceful bunch.One wore his Enoch Powell Tshirt with pride beneath his jacket,another was filming anti fascists for the Redwatch site and a third had his bald head covered in swastika tattoos. What an awful shower!
trev


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM

Trev, Don't put ideas into thier heads. it is bad enough that they have elected councillors and euro MPs


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:24 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnpJU31HM0&feature=related.
please watch this video and rate it 5 stars,it is a response to muslim demographics.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM

Yes, please do follow Dick's link to that video.....

One of the things that supporters of the British folk scene will have to do to make the entirely laudable Folk Against Fascism movement entirely credible is to make sure that its own house is in order. If you follow the subject of the discussion that Dick Miles and I have been having over on another Mudcat thread - Boring Folk Day - you will find that I think that we have some way to go in this.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM

On the subject of Mozart etc ...

The european musical tradition has focussed more on harmony . The African musical tradition focussed more on rhythm.

There has never been anything in Europe to rival the complex syncopation and polyrhythms of Africa.

I would love to take any BNP mozart fan to the Gambia and watch them try to conceptualize and learn the complexity of their music.

Then we would travel down the west coast of Africa through Ghana and Nigeria on our way to South Africa to discover that the depth and variety of subsaharan african music is endless - and not something that Mozart ever conceived of.

But being ignorant, "the doc" wouldn't have a clue about that.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM

I just read the following blog comments about people of color reading historical novels and plays and feeling nostalgic about the past:

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/15/nostalgia-a-sport-for-the-privileged/#comments

"@Wendi: "being privileged during one time may consist of completely different things than it does now and from say X country's perspective."

Back in Mediterranean classical times, blond Germanic types were stereotyped as stupid, ferocious savages while dark-skinned "Ethiopians" were supposed to be clever, but overly civilized and effete. The idea was that the hotter your climate, the smarter you were, but the more cowardly. Hey, it makes about as much sense as most of our modern-day stereotypes."
-Posted by atlasien ; Jun 2009 at 4:17 pm ¶

**

..."Actually, it was BETTER to be black in England in the 17th Century than in the 18th or 19th. There are a number of accounts of African visitors to London who were important personages–diplomats, tradesmen, ambassadors–who were treated with a combination of exoticism and respect. The slave trade had not yet become as entrenched in the English economy as it would in later years. So the association of "black/African" with "inferior/slave" had not yet become an established way of thinking. Shakespeare's Othello offers a good "timestamp" of the moment; sure, some characters say racist and ugly things about him, but he has risen to a high position in the army, has the respect of the Senate, and Desdemona's love for him is unquestioned in the play.

Even 30-40 years later, a character like Othello would have been impossible for an English playwright to conceive."
-Posted by jp; 15 Jun 2009 at 5:56 pm ¶

-snip-

I know very little about the way Ethiopian people or Germanic people were portrayed in Mediterranean classical times. And I hadn't thought about Shakespeare and his characterization of a high ranking Black man with an interracial marriage. And I read Othello so long ago that I can't remember the "racist and ugly things[that people in that play said] about him". I'm wondering how the BNP deals with this play. But they probably ignore anything that they can't use to their advantage.

Is there some way that this information-particularly the part about Othello could be mentioned to the advantage of the goals of Folk Against Fascism or the (broader?) goals of whoever/whatever organizations are interested in fostering a society that is much less racist than England was in the 18th century, 19th century, 20th century, and than England is now in the 21st century? For starters I'm thinking about how discussions could held to consider how Black people and other People of Color (including people from India) have been considered and depicted in English historical documents, literature, and music and why we (People of Color) have been/are portrayed that way and then and now.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:48 AM

Vic Smith

make sure that its own house is in order.

All very well, Vic, but how do we decide what is acceptabe? According to Folknacious If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. which seems to imply that the very characteristics that define traditional music make it racist. OH MY GOD! Walter Pardon was WHITE! We mustn't sing his songs or they'll think we're BNP supporters!

How far do we go? Is this acceptable?

Bryan Creer (Colonel, Nrs, retired)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM

For "Nrs" read "Mrs". Messed up my own joke. It's the way you tell 'um.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM

With respect Snail, your posts on this thread are becoming increasingly unconstructive IMO. Perhaps those who enjoy indulging in the same old snippery, would consider taking it elsewhere? There are people on this thread who really are trying to be constructive. I for one am interested in hearing their contributions, rather than the usual petty bickering over who said what when and how.

The music the BNP are targeting, is what we would collectively generally recognise (though the specific criteria which determine what 'it' is, might be debatable - THAT is a side issue) to be "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles."

For the purposes of the awareness raising campaign, the music 'under threat' is the music that we need to be discussing stratagies of dissociating from right-wing propaganda. The difficulty is in extricating English music from the dangers of association to agendas promoted by rascist groups. That is why we must be careful about the language we use. Because poorly expressed wording can be misconstrued - including *willfully* so. As indeed we see all the time on Mudcat...

It is in that context, which I read Folknacious' quote.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM

Please keep to the subject. I read this thread several times a day and it is suffering from the usual mud drift. Let's stop the bickering and point scoring, yes you are all very clever, but I suspect too much time on your ands.

FAF Andy


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:46 AM

From: greg stephens - PM
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures? I have spent various chunks of my life recording the music of various immigrant/refugee/asylum seeker people in this country, because I love folk music basically. To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. The politics is the personal.
Subject: RE: Boring Folk Day
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:25 AM

here is one suggestion that I think would use music in a progressive way.
the English government should subsidise English /Asian music clubs, which have a booking policy of equally shared TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY music,from English and Asian backgrounds.
music can be a great way of breaking down barriers.

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Subject: RE: Boring Folk Day
From: GUEST,Silas - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:30 AM

"here is one suggestion that I think would use music in a progressive way.
the English government should subsidise English /Asian music clubs, which have a booking policy of equally shared TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY music,from English and Asian backgrounds.
music can be a great way of breaking down barriers. "

Completely bonkers. Are you being serious?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM

Which bits are you quoting? Which bits are your own? Which bits are bonkers? It is rather difficult to tell.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM

YES,
I am serious,and I think the government has a responsibilty,to help integration,and furthermore the English government,and also local arts councils have a responsibilty to have an international outlook.
In my opinion, They should encourage folk promoters,with subsidies/grants,to encourage a booking policy of 50 per cent english traditional,and 50 percent traditional/contemporary asian music.that doesnot mean that I am against folkclubs who wish to have a different booking policy,
the two should be able to coexist together.


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