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Folk Against Fascism

theleveller 20 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM
The Sandman 20 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM
Tug the Cox 20 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM
Fred McCormick 20 Jun 09 - 04:25 AM
Peace 20 Jun 09 - 03:31 AM
Stringsinger 19 Jun 09 - 07:01 PM
The Sandman 19 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM
The Sandman 19 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 19 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM
Phil Edwards 19 Jun 09 - 02:07 PM
VirginiaTam 19 Jun 09 - 01:44 PM
jeddy 19 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 19 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 19 Jun 09 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Silas 19 Jun 09 - 12:07 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 19 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 19 Jun 09 - 11:58 AM
theleveller 19 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 19 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM
jeddy 19 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 19 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM
Tug the Cox 19 Jun 09 - 10:14 AM
Lox 19 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM
Lox 19 Jun 09 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 19 Jun 09 - 04:21 AM
melodeonboy 19 Jun 09 - 04:19 AM
Ruth Archer 19 Jun 09 - 03:50 AM
theleveller 19 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM
Lox 18 Jun 09 - 09:16 PM
Tug the Cox 18 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM
jeddy 18 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM
Stringsinger 18 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM
curmudgeon 18 Jun 09 - 05:16 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM
Banjiman 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM
theleveller 18 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,jock 18 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM
Ruth Archer 18 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM
The Borchester Echo 18 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM

I find very intersting."

let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone....*LOL*

Touche! Sorry can't find the accent. LOL!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM

Fred, interesting post,English culture has of course permeated Irish music too,[all those pattern dances]hardly surprising since Ireland was under complete English rule until 1921.
[To further muddy the waters, nationalists have been doctoring and manipulating "native" folk culture for centuries, whilst passing it off as the real thing.]quote Fred M.
so have others notably Bert Lloyd[I think we are the richer for his efforts]
even Cecil Sharp ,was guilty of this,by bowdelerising manuscripts,and by being selective in that which he chose to record.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM

See face book, 1,000, 000 united against the BNP>


http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8644741474


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 04:25 AM

Frank Hamilton. "Let's know more about English traditional culture and let it enlighten the way and turn the rock over to reveal the roaches."

I agree absolutely. The more one looks at the folk culture of any nation, the more one realises how utterly unrepresentative of that nation it really is. EG., English folk culture is heavily permeated by Scots and Irish influences, to say nothing of influences from mainland Europe.

To further muddy the waters, nationalists have been doctoring and manipulating "native" folk culture for centuries, whilst passing it off as the real thing.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 03:31 AM

I really wish y'all would listen (read) closely what Frank Hamilton is saying. He's really 'been there and done that'. Arguing over this type of thing detracts from FAF, it doesn't add to it. Hell, the BNP is likely laughing itself silly over the behaviour of people here. If I have offended anyone, message me. Let the BNP wash its dirty underwear in public. One would hope that at least we could be above that.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 07:01 PM

There is some good news here. The BNP crap has been tried before, here in the States by none other than that old corporate fascist, Henry Ford. He was a devotee of what he considered to be "American" and presented performances by various people from different countries wearing their native outfits to be run through a special stage machine that wiped out all traces of ethnicity and made them "truly amurican". He was also a devotee of country dance, (English also) and collected fiddlers and their repertoire. He tried to interest his followers in this "wholesome" pursuit as an antidote to their "furrin'" habits. It didn't and couldn't work.

Stirring up hatred for immigrants is a cyclical pastime. It never lasts over the long haul.
We have our spate of crazies here in the States that are reaching the media but although
they are considered "newsworthy" most Americans are disgusted with this xenophobia.

At one point in time, there was a bill to establish the "Square Dance" as the national one of America. Thanks to the lucid and informed understanding of Bess Lomax Hawes, this
ridiculous idea was abandoned.

My point: The more in depth we know of a culture, and the more information disseminated about it, the less it can be appropriated by racists or xenophobes with
an agenda.

Let's know more about English traditional culture and let it enlighten the way and turn the rock over to reveal the roaches.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM

I suppose we will have somme eejit tell us next ,that he believed in free love


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM

Rifleman ,never mind what you think, I bloody well knew him .
my opinion is that he was a fairly CONVENTIONAL Conservative ,although his background was much more extreme,I would never have described him as a free thinker[that is very funny],he was in my opinion an excellent performer,and why the fu## he has been dragged into this load of cobblers ,I do not know.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM

"Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie..."

Actually I thnk you're wrong, I've heard he was more of a free thinker..mind you with some of the left wing that would be tantamount to being right wing.....or being politically unreliable.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:07 PM

Now they want me to talk to the Diversity manager for advice.

Any funding is good funding, but my heart sank a bit when I read the D-word. "English traditional and other traditional" strikes me as just the wrong approach - as if English traditional music calls out to pure-bred English yeomen (yeopeople?) and excludes everyone else, and an alternative needs to be laid on for everyone with migrant roots. In actual fact English traditional music is automatically appreciated by a relatively small proportion of people of any extraction - and it can be appreciated by just about everyone, of any extraction. The relationship between English traditional music and England is historical, not ethnic - it's 'our' tradition in the sense that we live here.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:44 PM

Slight thread drift alert

Received an email from colleague (cultural festival manager) today re needing ideas to promote the One World One Essex initiative. And I mentioned the threads like this and others and said that I would like to see monthly multicoultural folk sessions in pubs, schools or village halls and big festival in large venue yearly.

The Arts development people and the aforementioned (cultural festival manager) started getting all excited and said I should apply for a small arts grant (£2500) to kick it off the ground. Now they want me to talk to the Diversity manager for advice.

Thoughts?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM

i get the importance of decent grammar,but surely what is more important is getting your meaning across, spelling mistakes.mmmm.. not me!!!! lol as long as it makes some sort of sense, then, hey go for it!

i think most spelling mistakes are a product of being passionate and trying to type things as you hink them (t).

take care all

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM

Just found this further up the thread:

"Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie, and he was quite possibly the only world-class Genius the Folk Revival ever produced."

Now there's a debatable statement if I ever read one! The 'only' world-class Genius? I assume this means that you liked Peter Bellamy, SO'P?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM

Come along now folkies, no squabbles needed here! And TheLeveller - why now, surely you're too savvy to need to use details over grammar as ammo to quash an online quibble, innit?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:26 PM

Silas, I missed THAT, thanks for pointing it out. *LOL*

Actually the keyboard I've taken to using lately (out of neccesity I might add) is a French language rather than an English language one, some of the characters are in a different postion, still getting used to it.

"I find very intersting."

let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone....*LOL*


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:07 PM

"I find very intersting."

I too find this intersting!"

Unless you are absoloutly brilliant at it, I'd leave comments about grammar, spelling and typing out of it!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM

"Your persistent use of the comma instead of the apostrophe, however, I find very intersting."

my problem not yours, sunshine... *LOL*


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:58 AM

An interesting interpretation of Dylan, which just occurred to me, is the Julie Driscoll/Brian Auger Trnity version of This Wheels On Fire, The Band do a fantastic live version of this as well (there are videos of both versions on Youtube).


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

"Agreed, The Byrds, Fairport Convention and Manfred Mann are the top interpreters of Dylan in my opinion. Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song from their Unhalfbricking recording. The vocals of Sandy Denny with Ian Matthews guesting are supburb. "

Frankly, I'm not THAT interested in what you listen to. Your persistent use of the comma instead of the apostrophe, however, I find very intersting.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM

Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song

I tried, but I couldn't sit through it - the sound's just too sweet. But Dylan's version nails me to the spot every time, all seven minutes of it. De gustibus eh?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM

Agreed, The Byrds, Fairport Convention and Manfred Mann are the top interpreters of Dylan in my opinion. Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song from their Unhalfbricking recording. The vocals of Sandy Denny with Ian Matthews guesting are supburb.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

i find dylan really hard to understand, i love his songs.. just sung by someone else lol

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

"On the other hand, I very likely do. A glance into Christopher Hill's 'Liberty Against the Law', especially the chapter on the Robin Hood ballads, may enlighten your ignorance"

Sorry I,m really not THAT interested in what you sing or don't sing,mor what you read or don,t read, my remark was one of flippancy more than anything.

Currently listening to Highway 61 Revisited, Bob Dylan, specifically Desolation Row, very appropriate indeed.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:14 AM

And is some folk self describe themselves as plastic Paddies, who is being offended? The meaning is quite clear, someone who adopts a commercialised irish personna ( like waiters, barmaids and entertainers in Irish theme pubs). If it is lucrative, the perpetrator is honest, and actually entertains audiences who freely go to be entertained, knowing that the musician is about as Irish as yorkshire pudding, what kind of puritan prodnose would wish to be 'offeneded'.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM

I've just thought this issue through again on the plastic paddy thread below the line and I've changed my miind.

I think the term is offensive.

For my reasons see the other thread.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 04:55 AM

Ruth, you are right. That is true.

It is also true that it is used as a term of abuse.


In circumstances where your definition appklies, you are right, it isn't offensive.

In circumstances that have witnessed, it is.


This isn't an argument, more of a jigsaw.

You aren't wrong and I'm not contesting your observation, I am adding another piece of the picture that you may be unaware of.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 04:21 AM

My last word on this, because frankly I think it's quite daft. Plastic Paddy refers to a false construct of Irishness. I first heard it used by Irish people themselves, referring to commercialised attempts to co-opt their culture.

In which sense it is used in Ireland to describe Oirish Americans.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: melodeonboy
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 04:19 AM

Well said, Ruth. Common sense really!


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:50 AM

"Identity is important and if somebody questions your identity based on false criteria it can be offensive."

My last word on this, because frankly I think it's quite daft. Plastic Paddy refers to a false construct of Irishness. I first heard it used by Irish people themselves, referring to commercialised attempts to co-opt their culture.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"so kindly spare me your white middle class patronising"


Hmmmm....afraid you'd have a bit of difficulty squeezing me into that box.


"You very likely don't sing the ballads."

On the other hand, I very likely do. A glance into Christopher Hill's 'Liberty Against the Law', especially the chapter on the Robin Hood ballads, may enlighten your ignorance.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM

Thanks for that Jade - as far as I'm concerned, friendly banter oils the wheels of the world.
During the 'troubles' here there was much hatred and resentment, but it was reserved for those really responsible - the politicians and the fanatics - long may that continue to be so.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 09:16 PM

Depends who says it and their tone.

Identity is important and if somebody questions your identity based on false criteria it can be offensive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM

'm not quite sure why you find Plastic Paddy so offensive.


   A not bad oufit in Exmouth, two of whom are irish, call themselves the 'Plastic Pady's' ( sic), because they thought it represented the pop Irish stuff they do.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM

jim, i agree that people can take take things too far.. flipant example, we are or were into animal rights and someone started to sing dog in a microwave, some people thought that we might get upset over this, the truth is it's one of the funniest song i have ever heard.
the same as songs about fox hunting and whaling, if we got upset about every song that wouldn't fit into todays society then we would have very little to sing, although it would take out the "i don't know the words " problem. lol so maybe it's an option!!??
old folk songs are not about the people today they are reminding us of a different time with different values.
we should never lose sight of where we as a nation come from.
how can we improve our future without knowing the mistakes made in the past?

i don't see how we can put some of our political differences aside though,when you know that the person you are singing with, wishes to destroy all you hold dear, i think some differences are just too big to ignored and swept aside by singing together.
although i think music brings people together and creates , if only for the evening a sense of family and belonging.

much like i feel coming on here, we may argue amongst ourselves but when an outsider comes on and starts attacking people we stick together, dmr? of course anyone is welcome. but it is how they are recieved that makes the difference.

thankyou for accepting me and on the whole making me welcome, i know i have been accepted when people start taking the piss!!!

take care all and have a wonderful night

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM

"I think art can transcend partisan politics"
This says it all really. Whatever our individual political beliefs may be, we usually manage to come together and enjoy our music. This does not mean we put our beliefs on hold, we simply don't let them get in the way.
As a couple of Brits, Pat and I visited this part of Ireland at least once a year, often twice, for over thirty years - this included throughout the troubles. I found it incredibly moving to walk down the street in Miltown Malbay where many of the houses were bedecked with black flags mourning the deaths of the hunger strikers in the North, and go into a bar session made up of Catholics, Protestants, atheists like ourselves.... whatever, and be greeted as friends. We never attempted to hide who we were or what we believed; we didn't have to - music was a wonderful coming together.
As I said, politics, general or specific are a vital part of our tradition and the repertoire would be very much impoverished if it became a no-go area.
Where do you stop with not 'offending' people?
We've already lost chunks of our repertoire because of some people being (IMO) oversensitive about (percieved) sexist songs.
No more whaling songs, the hunting repertoire, Irish nationalist songs, the wonderful erotic songs, the jingoist pieces praising 'Brave Nelson' - it's a slippery slope to anodynism (is that a word?) folks.
There are, I believe, lines over which you don't step, but personally I have seldom seen singers come anywhere near it in the 40-odd years I've been involved. Let's leave it to the singers before we start reaching for the blue-pencil.
Incidentally, it is largely down to the left that we have access to most of our music - Lloyd, MacColl, Lomax (even Bobby D was considered a 'pinko' once upon a time). MacColl's best songs, some of the best the revival produced, IMO again, came directly from his political beliefs. Topic Records was started by the left wing (largely Communist) Workers Music Association.
Fraternally yours,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM

I enjoy Jim Carrol's posts and I think he knows a lot about what is important in folk music.

Part of what will defeat the racism of the BNP is the in-depth knowledge and interest in traditional music of all kinds. The old style ballad singing is an antidote to those who attempt to use folk music as a kind of phony nationalism. The power of that music defies
those who would claim it as a pretext for jingoism.

I think art can transcend partisan politics but with the idea that the expression of art whenever it is made has to be political. It affects the social order.

I used to be one who thought that a song could not change a view or belief. I'm not so sure anymore about that. Songs are very powerful statements that can transform society.

When I hear the old ballads, I am moved and transformed into thinking that the human
condition is variable and adaptable. One of the powers of folk music is that it is historically adaptable to changing times. The iconographic themes of the old songs limn
the mores of past times as stories and as Joseph Campbell has pointed out, humanity needs myths to teach us to appreciate our lives.

This is why traditional ballads will always be with us.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: curmudgeon
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:16 PM

Being a Yank with lots of friends across the pond, I've been following this thread as an education. But please put me down as one of Jim Carroll's "sort' - Tom Hall


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM

"Sorry to offend your right wing sensibilities"
*LOL
I was waiting for that; what took you so long...navel gazing were you? *LOL* I've fought racism all my life, and not because I have a choice, being a non white immigrant, I don't, so kindly spare me your white middle class patronising

I,m neither right nor left, both offend me equally..

You very likely don't sing the ballads.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM

Ruth/ Joan,

No probs I'll wait until Monday. Just let me know how the land lies.

Thanks

Paul


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM

[ SO'P, don't waste your time, Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it (I find them to be just as offensive as any racist),]QUOTE Rifleman.
so now someone[ is this MIKE HOCKENHULL ?] is saying Jim Carroll is as offensive as any racist [which equals THE BNP].
I find that very offensive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM

"As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game."

Couldn't agree more, there, Jim. Take away the politcs from folk music and you've bugger all left.

"Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it."

And what sort would that be? Presumably the sort who aren't prepared to take your gobshite. Well, I'm one of that sort. Sorry to offend your right wing sensibilities (actually, no, I'm not)but, as Jim says, you're in the wrong place here - what you want to see is your own navel and, quite frankly, for the rest of us, it ain't a pretty sight.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

SO'P, don't waste your time, Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it (I find them to be just as offensive as any racist), they only see what they want to see and expect everyone else to see the same thing and in the same way
We all do what we can and do it to the best of our abilities and that's the best we can hope for


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM

It might be worthwhile to recognise the difference between specific 'political songs' or particular 'bodies of political songs' within the English folk tradition as a whole, and the inappropriate *politicising of songs* and indeed the *politicising of* the English folk tradition as a whole.

I fear I'm not expressing this well. But while there may have always been political songs which existed in context to their times, it is the retrospective politicising of the English tradition as a whole, which I think needs to be fully avoided.

I also think that is precisely the purpose of the current campaign with respect to the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM

SO'P
Oh, come on - you didn't mention 'party' political.
Even so, our repertoires are full of political songs, either explicitly supporting a specific political cause, or by implication, attacking the establishment.
You appear to be suggesting the suspension of political opinion until the fight against fascism is won - life ain't like that. Worthy causes are like number 9 buses, you win one and along comes another - Mosely, Second front, Korea, Cuba, CND, Viet Nam, Greece, Chile, the miners strike, Turkey, Iran..........
Folk song records our history - and that includes political and social struggle.
"It refers to anything that is excessively commercialised or completely false"
It also refers to people who adopt an 'Oirish' accent and supposed 'T'ick' mannerisms, just as offensive and racist as the term itself.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM

As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game.

I don't think so, Jim; out of a personal repertoire of some 300 odd Traditional English Language Folk Songs not a single one of them is in any way shape or form party political. I might grin as I intone the wishful jingoism of Bellamy's setting of Kipling's The Land despite the erroneous left-wing gloss put on it by certain singers; as ever, I fear, context is all. Fact is, I know just as many Right-Wing Traddies as I do Left; Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie, and he was quite possibly the only world-class Genius the Folk Revival ever produced. As for myself, I choose not to get involved one way or the other; we all have our opinions (such as mine about the genius of Peter Bellamy) and we all are all welcome to them.   

The defeat of Racism & Fascism is something very different and won't be achieved by the factionalism & in-fighting that, as already touched upon, not only typifies the left, but also accounts for its ultimate impotence. Racism & Fascism will not be defeated by singing Folk Songs (much less protest songs) but if by showing solidarity against the BNP Folkies & Traddies - be they Left, Right, Centre or Whatever - can remove this unwelcome stain from our precious musical & cultural heritage then that only ever be a good thing. If that's what Folk against Fascism is about, then I'm happy to be part of it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,jock
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM

Lox posted " ............Something to bear in mind is that the two BNP MEP's were elected in Yorkshire and the North west .."

For the benefit of our friends from outside the UK, could I point out that Lox was referring to the North West region of England, not Britain, although he has only mentioned Britain in his postings. A bit confusing for our foreign cousins.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

I'm not quite sure why you find Plastic Paddy so offensive. It refers to anything that is excessively commercialised or completely false, such as the chains of Irish-themed pubs which sprung up in England about 10 years ago.

If you really think that this is more offensive than the Irish stereotypes that were around in the 1870s, I think you might be ever so slightly over-sensitive.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

It's the Plastic Paddy pubs with green beer, fake shamrock and fields upon fields of sodding Athenry that are deeply offensive and the ultimate dumbing down of all things Irish, especially the culture. No-one mentioned anything about Hibernian citizens being manufactured from said polymer.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM

What's wrong with the term "Plastic Paddy Pubs"? We have plenty of tacky fake Irish theme pubs in the UK. And they have exactly *zero* to do with Irish culture. It just describes a type of 'commercial branding' which cashes in on the worst imaginable tacky pastiche of Irishness.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM

As an Irish-American I find the term "Plastic Paddy" to be very offensive..way more offensive than what they could have come up with in 1870. I would ask that you at least put parentheses around it to distance yourself from an offensive term. mg


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